Skip to main content
Normal View

Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach debate -
Wednesday, 10 May 2023

Examination of EU Fiscal Rules (Resumed): Irish Fiscal Advisory Council

On behalf of the committee, I welcome from the IFAC Mr. Sebastian Barnes, chairman, Dr. Eddie Casey, chief economist, Mr. Brian Cronin, economist and Mr. Killian Carroll, economist. It is important to note, in terms of parliamentary privilege, that people cannot say whatever they want about whomsoever they might want, even within the confines of this committee room. Full privilege is accorded to those who are members of the committee and who are in the appropriate location, namely the confines of Leinster House. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members attending remotely must also have regard to these rules.

I now invite Mr. Barnes to make his opening remarks.

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

Thank you very much. I thank the committee for inviting the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council here to discuss the EU fiscal rules. The council's mandate is to assess and endorse the Government's macroeconomic forecasts, to assess its budgetary projections and compliance with domestic fiscal rules and to provide an overview of the overall fiscal stance.

The council has not undertaken a formal assessment of the proposed changes to the EU fiscal framework.

However, the Council takes a close interest in these reforms. As members of the informal network of EU Independent Fiscal Institutions, we have participated in a number of contributions to this debate. These are available publicly on the network's website.

Fiscal rules, frameworks and institutions provide useful guidance in setting fiscal policy. They help ensure sound economic management of the economy and public finances and help to improve the focus on the medium term. In the EU context, fiscal rules have a special role in ensuring individual countries do not put the wider euro area at risk, as we experienced in 2010. Designing fiscal rules for countries in the euro area is a challenging task given the diversity of different economic situations and different traditions and institutions among the member states. Since the Stability and Growth Pact was put in place in 1997, there have been three regimes. The original pact focused on the 3% deficit and 60% of GDP debt ceiling. The amended pact of 2005 focused on a target for the structural balance adjusted for the economic cycle. In 2011 the six-pack of reforms aimed to reinforce this approach. For the past three years, with Covid and the energy crisis, exceptional circumstances in terms of the pact have prevailed and normal operation of the rules has been suspended. However, this is set to end this year.

The Stability and Growth Pact has been widely criticised on two grounds. The first ground is that the rules are seen as overly complex and not always delivering sound advice and the second is that compliance and enforcement of the rules has been inadequate. Against this background, on 26 April the Commission published detailed legislative proposals to reform the EU fiscal rules to build on the mandate agreed by Ministers at the ECOFIN meeting in March. These reforms aim to simplify the framework, strengthen the medium-term focus and increase compliance by improving national ownership.

These reforms are a major change in direction, although many familiar features will remain. Much of the existing framework based on the structural balance and the one-twentieth debt rule would disappear. In simple terms, the new framework would have three steps. The first is that the Commission would propose a four-year reference adjustment path for spending. This reference path is designed to put the debt ratio on a downward path over the following ten years after the initial four-year reference period. The top-left chart in slide 2 shows a hypothetical example where the dotted line is the baseline for debt. The Commission would then propose a trajectory that would put debt on a downward trajectory over a ten-year period after the adjustment has taken place. This will be translated into a spending path, as can be seen in the bottom-left corner. Thus, for this country, spending would initially have to grow more slowly than the economy to help increase the fiscal balance. Then, over the ten-year period, it could grow in line with it. In its most recent proposals, the Commission has also introduced a number of safeguards. These can be seen on the right of the slide. They are some additional conditions around the deficit, the amount of adjustment countries will need to be doing, around backloading and so forth. The Commission will come back to this trajectory. I return to the first slide. As a second stage, each member state will then propose its own national trajectory for spending, which could differ from the Commission's proposal. This would need to be approved at EU level. The third step is that this spending path would be monitored and enforced both at EU level and by national fiscal councils. There is a three-step procedure anchored in the objective of getting debt down.

Broadly speaking, this regime would apply to countries with deficits greater than 3% and debt ratios above 60% of GDP. The potential advantages of this regime are that, on the one hand, it allows for a more tailored design of fiscal requirements through a richer process to set the adjustment path than we have had in the past. On the other hand, it gives a simpler operational target based on spending that should be easier to enforce. Furthermore, the whole approach has a much stronger medium-term focus than the traditional year-by-year assessments we have had up to now in the Stability and Growth Pact. However, there remain important open questions. The Commission has yet to publish simulations of the spending paths, so we do not ultimately know what these will imply for fiscal policy in each member state nor how robust or sensitive to the assumptions the underlying calculations are. How far this regime increases national ownership and compliance remains to be seen. Much will depend on the degree of political support and the willingness to enforce this system among EU member states.

The proposals would also significantly strengthen the role of national independent fiscal institutions, IFIs, as shown in slide 3. The Commission notes they "have proven their [capacity] to foster fiscal discipline and strengthen the credibility of Member States' public finances". IFIs would be given a range of new tasks, building on their existing activities and there would be EU requirements on countries to strengthen their capacity. In slide 3 we have indicated new or modified roles with bold font. These roles are particularly around producing or endorsing medium-term macroeconomic and budgetary forecasts, producing debt sustainability analysis and a number of other things.

What does this mean for Ireland? Given the use of GDP, Ireland will most likely be classified as a low-debt country. The debt ratio was 45% of GDP at the end of 2022. However, on a more appropriate GNI* basis, Ireland would have a debt ratio around 83% and therefore would have been considered a high-debt country. Despite this, the fiscal trajectory is relatively benign given the surpluses projected and this would likely imply no real changes in policy. Due to the use of GDP and the relatively benign position, Ireland will most likely not face very intensive scrutiny under the new framework. Ireland’s unusual circumstances mean it has historically been largely compliant with the EU rules outside of the banking crisis, though largely as these rules have been insufficiently demanding. Compliance has been helped by the surges in corporation tax receipts. In this new world of the reformed pact, the domestic Irish framework will therefore need to play a critical role to ensure the economy and the public finances are kept on a stable path given the EU framework will ultimately be less binding. In short, the domestic framework should be the first line of defence, with the EU rules providing a backup. This would help ensure Ireland has the fiscal rules it needs and that work for its economy.

The Government’s national spending rule, introduced in summer 2021, is a sensible framework and has helped steer the public finances through the energy crisis. It is similar in spirit to the national fiscal trajectory at EU level. This should be reinforced by enshrining the national spending rule in law, so it is more specific and harder to ignore. This would help ensure Governments current and future only increase net spending in way that is sustainable and not in a way that relies on exceptional and potentially unreliable revenues. Given the huge inflows of corporation tax from a small number of foreign multinationals and Ireland’s now historically low unemployment rates, saving a large part of corporation tax receipts is necessary to avoid overheating the economy. The National Pensions Reserve Fund should be redeveloped. One option would be to make it a pensions reserve fund that would save incoming revenues and help to put the pension system on a more sustainable footing. The council welcomes the reports put out by the Government around that this morning.

For the Irish Fiscal Council, the proposed range of tasks in the Commission proposals broadly fits with our existing tasks, but would be extended in some ways. This would require some additional resources.

Given the proposed changes at EU level, the Fiscal Responsibility Act 2012 would need to be overhauled to reflect the new requirements and remove some of what would by then have become legacy requirements. This would be an important opportunity to strengthen the domestic budgetary framework by including the national spending rule and a new pensions reserve fund or similar arrangement. Overall, the main gain to Ireland from these reforms should be in making the euro area more stable and reducing debt in other countries with riskier levels of debt. However, it comes with opportunities to strengthen our own budgetary arrangements to manage what are likely to be more complicated times in the years ahead.

I thank Mr. Barnes for his presentation. The information we get from the council and its submissions are always helpful.

I see the council is calling for legislative reform. I ask this just out of curiosity, but is the council overstepping its mandate as laid down in law by calling for changes to legislation in relation to what the Parliament is doing? There are very clear responsibilities around the EU fiscal rules, compliance and making assessments, but are we straying beyond those. I am not suggesting it should not happen but wanted to make that point. There has been a marked change, if I may say so. When we have been dealing with the IFAC in the past, there has been a clear buffer where something is said to be an issue of policy and not for the council. Now there seems to be more willingness to engage on policy options, especially around pensions, as well as some other issues. On legislative reform, will Mr. Barnes outline whether that strays beyond the council's mandate?

In this context what are the increased responsibilities and tasks? The legislation is very clear that the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council must fulfil all tasks imposed on it, including the tasks imposed by the European Commission through these rules. What will this mean to the expansion of the mandate?

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

We have always taken our mandate very seriously. It is a very important and precious thing. It is very important that institutions such as IFAC do not overstep the mark. I do not think there has been any change. Certainly there has been no change in policy with regard to this from our side. To be clear, I said at the beginning that we have not made a formal assessment of these things because, as Deputy Doherty said, we have not been asked to do it. It is not part of our mandate. Obviously it is very close to many areas we work in, including on the EU rules.

In terms of the change in legislation I was not particularly advocating for it. It was just an implication. The existing legislation, which also set up IFAC, is very much rooted in the previous EU reforms. There are things that logically would need to change. Potentially that is an opportunity to look at other aspects also.

With regard to the European changes proposed to our role as an independent fiscal institution, as I said there is significant overlap with what we currently do. Some of it is a very natural extension. For example, the Commission wants a more long-term framework, going from endorsing economic forecasts a few years ahead to a longer horizon. We have seen the Government go to a longer horizon for the stability programme. It is a very natural extension. Extending this to budgetary projections is a policy choice but it has a logic. The danger is that in some countries a government may choose to come up with funny budgetary projections that suit it but do not reflect the reality. It is an important safeguard but, of course, it is a policy choice as to whether it should be done.

I do not want to pick a battle on this issue but I want to make the point that in his opening statement Mr. Barnes said this should be reinforced by enshrining the national spending rule, which is a rule of the Government and not a national spending rule. It has no basis in legislation. It is a benchmark the Fine Gael-Fianna Fáil Government uses, which it has ignored on two out of the past four occasions. Mr. Barnes said it should be enshrined in law. I would argue this possibly strays beyond IFAC's mandate because it is a domestic rule. It is not bound or connected to the EU fiscal rules. I can understand that while it would be appealing I wonder whether it is something to which IFAC needs to give thought, with regard to calling on legislators to legislate for something that is possibly outside its mandate. It is not part of the EU fiscal rules.

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

Our mandate also includes a mandate to assess the public finances in the broader sense. Of course this covers many things. Ultimately the choice on these is for the Legislature. It is an important part of IFAC's duty to call things as we see them within the mandate. Within this is an issue Deputy Doherty has raised, which is pensions. It is one of the major risks. It would have been remiss of us not to raise questions about it. We have not argued for specific solutions to it. We have made a number of statements and put ideas on the table. The same is true with legislation. We see from other countries that legislating for these rules has been helpful to them in stabilising the public finances. It is in this spirit that we provide it as advice. It would help to anchor the fiscal stance, which is part of our mandate to consider.

With regard to risks and concerns about the future, and pensions is a good example, I would not expect anything less of the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council than to produce the type of papers it has produced. They are very helpful for the debate. I make this point because it is a specific call for national legislation that is outside the EU fiscal rules and would create a further bind. We will move on from this.

With regard to the Commission's proposals, it has resurrected the 3% deficit and 60% debt targets as part of the new rules, with member states required to have a fiscal adjustment of 0.5% of GDP if their deficit remains above 3%. Will Mr. Barnes outline his understanding of why a debt target of 60% of GDP should be considered appropriate? Is it an arbitrary target? We have heard from other witnesses that 60% was chosen because it was the average of European countries at the time but there is no basis in analysis as to whether it is an appropriate figure. Is there a basis for the 60%? Is it appropriate?

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

Deputy Doherty is correct that originally it was somewhat arbitrary. It was somewhat above the debt ratio that most countries had. The idea was to provide a bit of space. There is a mathematical formula, based on growth and interest rates at the time, that gave 60% as a debt ratio. One of the big constraints in the design of the revised rules is that the figures of 3% and 60% are written in the treaties. This means that if we want to change them we would have to change the treaties, which is a very complex process.

In terms of the substance of it, to my knowledge there is no specific number for debt which is a magical number and has deep properties. However, the broader point with debt is that the higher the debt ratio, the higher the risk. I can show committee members a slide which was taken from a paper. The higher the debt, the higher the risk and it increases in a linear way.

Obviously it makes sense to try to keep debt at a low level or a reasonable level. As Mr. Barnes mentioned, it is written into the treaties so we are stuck with it and have to figure a way around it. The real question is how to get to 60%. Again, it seems that politics was the dominant factor. Germany produced a paper that suggested a 0.5% adjustment to GDP. This is what ended up appearing in the proposals. The average EU debt to GDP ratio at present is 85%. Obviously we are below 60% so it does not affect us. Greece is at 178%, Italy is at 147%, Portugal is at 120%, Spain is at 115%, France is at 113% and Belgium is at 106%. This has led Olivier Blanchard, the former chief economist of the IMF, to describe the proposals as catastrophic. He said they would lead to the worst form of pro-cyclical policy. Will IFAC give its views on this proposal?

Dr. Eddie Casey

I think Mr. Blanchard was referring to some of the earlier proposals that Germany put forward in the discussions. Some of the earlier evidence it gave suggested things would move much more back towards the 3% targets, which were much more core to the fiscal rules than they look like they will be. Of course this is still to be decided. He was emphasising the point that these hard rules which rely on the actual balances as they are at a point in time is a terrible idea. Every economist accepts this. They go back to a pro-cyclical approach, whereby if a country suddenly finds itself in a deficit or downturn it is a reflection of the economy doing really badly at a certain point in time.

Germany was arguing for a 1% adjustment for highly indebted countries. This does not appear in this version of the fiscal rules. It would have included those countries I have named. What the rule will specify is a 0.5% of GDP adjustment. Is this not also pro-cyclical?

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

Mr. Blanchard was speaking about a slightly different version. Deputy Doherty is right that requiring some structural tightening, irrespective of the cycle, on the face of it can be pro-cyclical. Something to bear in mind is that there are different ways of doing this. If we want to reduce the debt ratio, which is the way the Commission thinks about it, this can only be achieved through lowering spending growth through this measure and through improving the structural balance. There is an equivalence between these types of rules. If we put in different rules they will not be quite the same and this is why it is being done. The difference may not be as fundamental as some people think

The current rules are very pro-cyclical, which is the problem. A one twentieth rule, which was so pro-cyclical it could not be enforced, was introduced. This is why it is being got rid of, and why this is progress. This would be binding on quite a small number of countries, perhaps shorter than the list Deputy Doherty gave. It may not be that different from not having this requirement. The Commission has not published its simulation so ultimately we do not know. This is a problem. We could have some pro-cyclical policies in some countries. It is a possibility under these rules. Of course, the scale for 0.5% a year is less than 1% a year. It would be the same requirement as we have now.

It is probably a question of how big we think these risks are. Some of these countries have very large debt ratios, very slow growth, and ageing populations, and are paying much higher interest rates than we are. It depends on how concerned one is about those things because we know that in the past, sometimes one has to take pro-cyclical decisions if the situation warrants them. One does not want to be in that situation but one can get into that situation. That is the judgment that has been taken and we do not have a view about how that judgment was taken. It is a political decision at European level. These are the trade-offs that are being faced.

I agree with Mr. Barnes because if we are running deficits, and our debt is more than 200% of GDP, then there is a major risk but the problem with rules is that if rules are set down in law and they are not able to take into account, that is a consideration. There is a bit of movement this year in terms of the four-year adjustment, and up to seven years and so on, but the rule is still there that we have to reduce by up to 0.5% of GDP and, to my reading, this does not just affect the number of highly-indebted countries but many countries right across Europe. The average in terms of Europe is 85%, so Germany is above 60%. Croatia, Finland, Slovenia, Hungary, Austria, Cyprus, Belgium, France, Spain, Italy, Portugal and Greece are all above 60%. What is Mr. Barnes's understanding of the type of adjustment? The 0.5% is not specified. Just to clarify, what is that adjustment? Does it relate to expenditure, the volume of debt? Will Mr. Barnes give clarity on that?

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

I would like to give two answers on that. First, technically we do not quite understand what it refers to. This is a live topic and one of the things that needs to be clarified. I gave Deputy Doherty two open questions but there is a much longer list. The question is if it is relative to the structural balance and we can achieve that either on the spending or the revenue side. The danger is that one of the problems underlying this proposal is the structural balance is still based on the commonly agreed methodology of working out potential output. As we know in this country-----

It does not work.

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

That it does not work is the short way of putting it. There is that concern, about what the technical requirement is. The second thing that is important for context is that the 0.5% requirement was in the existing framework as well. The 0.5% requirement is a tiny fiscal adjustment compared to the Irish experience of austerity and can be achieved by, for example, not raising public sector wages and freezes in most countries, particularly in an environment with quite high inflation. So it is a very different animal from that. It does become more problematic for countries that have to do it for several years in a row. It becomes much more challenging on the fiscal side and it is a big drain on an economy that is growing more slowly. However, it is important to understand that this adjustment is different from what our past experience of adjustment has been. In some ways if one is concerned about fiscal sustainability, high debt, and bad debt dynamics in some of these countries maybe that comes into the trade-off. We are not taking a view as to whether this is the right trade-off. Maybe it should not have included these changes maybe it should, I do not know. It is weighing up these different factors at a European level. There are trade-offs involved but the 0.5% in itself does not correspond to the austerity we knew in this country when the council was set up.

There is no doubt that there has been an improvement in many of the issues we argued in the referendum, structural balance, the hard rules, and the 120 have all been proven correct over time. The suspension of the rules at a time of vulnerability shows that these hard and fast rules should not be in domestic law, in my view. We are getting to a better position but there is still some clarity required and issues to be teased out. My two final questions go back to the spending rules. The rules, as we understand them, and as they are being presented will not apply to Ireland at this point in time because we are not in deficit, we are in surplus and expect that surplus to grow over the medium term and our debt to GDP ratio is below 60%. Even if debt to GNI* was used by 2026 this ratio will be at 65%. I think net debt to GNI* will be as low as 45% so Ireland is on a very good trajectory as regards our debt. While some people talk about the quantum of debt it is coming down and our ratios are dropping very quickly, which is to be welcomed. Is it Mr. Barnes's understanding that the rule will not apply, will they be advisory or will there still be implications to these rules even through Ireland is not in breach of the 3% or the 60% rules? Could there still be some encroachment or infringement either by the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council in terms of its enhanced powers - and I hear its call for the additional resources that will be needed to support its work - or through the European Commission?

The second part of my question goes back to the national spending rule. We are so conscious of that and in fairness the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council played a leading role in pointing out the vulnerability of the windfall corporation taxes which have now grown to approximately €12 billion. Even when we set those windfalls aside the State is expected to be in surplus, and significant surplus next year and over the next number of years, growing from €4.4 billion to more than €8 billion. When we compare Ireland's expenditure to other European countries it is low in comparison. I was looking at Germany's general government expenditure to GDP ratio which was 51.3%; Denmark's was 50.8%; and France's was 59%. Ireland's expenditure to GDP ratio stood at 24.8%. We all know about GDP so adjusting for GNI* it is 45.2%. These other countries are 59% or 51%. We are significantly behind and if people want their health service fixed, or they do not want a situation where a 98 year-old woman has to look at emergency hostel accommodation, we need to get more in line with our European competitors. Does the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council have any concern that a 5% rule at a time when there are surpluses that are expected to recur to the tune of billions would limit the ability of the State to meet the needs of citizens? One tail to that is the golden rule is gone and this is a major issue that all European countries will face in terms of the required transition that will cost a lot of investment. If we look at the budget for next year, outside of existing level of service, ELS, we are talking about €1.8 billion. It is not a huge amount of money when we look at the tax package and some of the pressures so does the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council have a view on whether there should be a carve-out for the likes of expenditure on transitionary measures in terms of climate change?

Dr. Eddie Casey

I will deal with the first part, what it will mean for Ireland. Deputy Doherty said earlier that the national spending rule we advocate putting into legislation would represent a further bind. The reality is the new EU fiscal rules would not be any bind on Ireland. It looks like Ireland will fall completely out of the focus of the rules and would be more or less left to our own devices. The only thing that would bind us is a guiding structural primary balance that the European Commission would put down in writing for us, however it does not look like it would have any real enforcement. The reality is that Ireland would have the 3% deficit limit and the 60% ceiling on debt. If Ireland was to breach those we might enter into some kind of enforcement again but it looks like that is not expected for the long term. That is why we are talking about a national spending rule. We are now at a point where Ireland has, after well over a decade, gotten out of a crisis and been able to reduce its debt ratio to reasonably normal levels compared to other economies. It looks like we are managing to eke out good budgetary surpluses for the coming years. We are now in a position where we can say we are able to stand on our own feet again. What will we do with this new budgetary environment we find ourselves in? It is up to Ireland to set out a path that lots of economies would follow if they were managing their budgetary positions sensibly in line with what they think will be growth in revenues in the medium term, growth in the economy, and how they can do it in a sustainable way. That is why the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council advocates these things because the EU fiscal rules will not be a bind on Ireland. There will be a few things that will be advocated for. We will do annual reports looking at whether Ireland is complying with these things. By all means Ireland more than likely will be so it is up to us to manage the excess corporation tax receipts we will be getting in, and the dangers around that potentially reversing in a year.

If it were to suddenly disappear, we would end up in a very different position. It is about how these things are managed, looking much further ahead and using the opportunity of longer-term planning. This work will be required to consider where Ireland will be ten years from now, to use that as a framework to identify the type of resources there will be for each Department and to ask what the Departments will do with those resources. It is a tremendous opportunity to think about how we plan for the future.

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

On the wider question regarding where the spending rule fits in, the council's mandate is carefully thought out. It refers to economic and budgetary management. One would hope those objectives would be going in the same direction but there are times when they go in opposite directions. Here in Ireland, they might be going in slightly different directions, in the sense that the underlying budgetary position is going back to surplus for the first time in a long time, even when one takes out corporation tax. One issue is that growth has been strong in recent years and revenues have been boosted by other aspects of the multinationals. A significant amount of the income tax growth has come from the phenomenal growth in pay of those working in the tech sector. That links back to the corporation tax issue. The budgetary position is looking better, however, and we are getting to a position where, in terms of the debt risks, debt will be at a sufficiently low level that we do not need to worry about it too much so long as it stays at that level.

What is becoming more of a concern is the second part, namely, the economic management part. Ireland has high inflation, record low unemployment and big capacity constraints relating to housing and investment. That is becoming a growing concern. It is the main reason for thinking about the spending rule and not putting too much money into the economy too fast. Otherwise, it risks being self-defeating, with bid-up prices and more bid-up rents. That is not what we want to happen. That is why the spending rule is a good framework. At the moment, however, the economic constraint may be a bit more than a fiscal sustainability one in terms of its relevance. In addition, there are many pressing social challenges, as well as public expectations of improvements in public services. As the Deputy pointed out, Ireland is not a particularly high spender in a European context, even when one measures it properly. That leads to the point that the spending rule should be asking questions about what we want to do and what the country will look like. Of course, the spending rule is adjusted for revenue changes. It is a social choice in respect of whether one wants to have an economy with higher taxes, higher spending and better public services or one with lower taxes where one accepts the consequences that come with that. That is a choice. Running the public finances in an unsustainable way or overheating the economy should not be a choice. There is a debate to be had on that. Last year, the Commission on Taxation and Welfare gave rise to an interesting debate in that regard which needs to be considered.

On the specific issue of investment, it is clear that Ireland has big needs relating to climate. We wish there was more analysis and a clearer plan to meet the climate targets, on both the capital and current sides. A significant amount of that investment is probably already built into the national development plan, NDP, but that is not fully clear. It is striking that the NDP is supposed to be taking investment to record high levels for a sustained period. That is often forgotten in the debate. There was a period when investment was undoubtedly too low but it has been going to record levels. That is what we need but it needs to be factored in. What has happened is that, year after year, the Government has not managed to spend its investment budget. That raises questions, although they are not for us to answer. It is an important feature of the public finances. The extra investment that might be needed in that context will be one of the factors that plays on the economy. Even though it is for climate investment, it could add to the capacity constraints in the economy if there is a significant amount of construction and various demands. We need to consider how that climate investment will fit in with the rest. That is why it is important to make choices and recognise that if we are in a period where we have to make these big investments on the climate side, that requires making choices in other areas regarding how we finance that. There is a big debate in respect of a golden rule or green rule or whatever, but that is often based on a somewhat textbook view of the world and ignores the fact that there is a public finance aspect to this. Of course, some of these projects will not have market returns. Building flood defences is a good idea because it helps prevent houses being flooded but it will not generate more taxes. Unfortunately, it is just something that needs to be done because the ecosystem has been damaged. Extra investment in these areas, however useful and worthwhile it is, also will call on the same capacity constraints in the economy. There is a need to be cautious and have a plan for how these choices will be made and how it will fit together. It is to be hoped there are a number of things here that lead to us strengthening our long-term planning, which has clearly been a problem in many areas.

I thank the witnesses.

I thank our guests for coming before the committee. It is 11 years since the Irish people voted in a referendum to sign up to the six-pack of reforms that were outlined in 2011. An issue of which we are not sufficiently aware is the extent to which other European countries are in compliance with those rules. I am conscious that the past three years have been exceptional. To what extent are other European countries in compliance with the stability and growth pact? What happens when they are not compliant? What is done by way of enforcement?

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

I do not have precise numbers but many countries have been compliant most of the time. They are the countries with low debt and there is no problem there. The interesting case is the countries that have not been compliant. There are several such countries and they are the ones that currently have relatively high debts. That is a concern because they are taking far more fiscal risk but all those in the monetary union are affected by that. Those countries include very large states, such as Italy. That has been the risk.

In terms of enforcement, there are several complicated mechanisms. The Commission does analysis and, ultimately, the member states have to decide what to do about it. There is a general sense that there has been a degree of forbearance. Countries that were breaking the rules have not been sanctioned for it, essentially due to various political reasons. The 2011 reforms attempted to bring in sanctions and fines and all kinds of things but they have never been applied and there is a big question regarding whether that would be credible. In some ways, the picture is sometimes better than people think. Ultimately, there is a significant amount of compliance but it is the hard cases that have not necessarily been solved. That is what the Commission is trying to do by making the rules more enforceable, having a simpler rule and trying to increase national ownership.

The Commission proposal puts forward a four-year reference spending path, the purpose of which is to put the debt ratio on a downward path through the following ten years. In the case of Ireland, would that not happen anyway?

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

As we have been arguing, this does not really bind on Ireland, partly because of the use of GDP, which is not appropriate for Ireland but is in the rules, but also because of the dynamics of the public finances in Ireland. Ireland is on a downward path to, it is hoped, a much more prudent and less risky place than where we are now.

It will not have any consequential impact on Ireland because of the current trend in our debt.

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

If Ireland carries on doing what it is doing now, the proposal will not have any impact.

The reforms also require member states to propose their own national fiscal trajectory for spending. Are those proposals subsequently approved and agreed at EU level?

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

Yes.

What happens if there is a change of government in a member state and the new government decides it does not like the national fiscal trajectory for spending and wishes to change it? Could it do so?

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

It could do so under the proposals from the Commission. There are various conditions under which it can be changed. Part of it relates to there being a change of government. It is important to recognise that the new government would still have to achieve the same kind of objectives in terms of reducing debt, so the margins countries would have to adjust is fairly limited. They could propose a different way of getting to the same place, however.

The destination has to be the same.

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

Basically, yes.

A new government cannot come in and state it has decided the country will not go towards that level of reduction of-----

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

Not per se. The number might be slightly different but the basic spirit has to be the same.

Will compliance in that regard be very similar to the type of compliance that is in force at present? Mr. Casey may wish to come in.

Dr. Eddie Casey

I will give Mr. Barnes a break. It appears that it will be very similar. Under the November proposals, it seemed that it would be more of the carrot approach than the stick approach, with provisions that states would not be entitled to certain EU funding, but it has moved back in the direction of the classic sanctions we have seen in the past.

What would happen if the EU did not agree with the Irish Government's fiscal trajectory when it comes to spending?

Dr. Eddie Casey

In my estimation, probably not a lot. It is very unlikely that Ireland would give the EU a set of forecasts showing an increase in the debt ratio above 60%. It is almost implausible that a state would put forward projections that would have any credibility in that regard. Why would it do so in the first place?

It is just unlikely. They are not going to be setting any adjustment paths for Ireland; it will just be a set of forecasts really.

On another topic, I presume the council agrees with the proposal of the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael McGrath, to ring-fence a certain amount of the windfall proceeds we are getting from corporation tax?

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

We have welcomed those proposals in broad terms. We have not assessed all the details yet. The council has made similar suggestions over the past year in terms of the importance of ring-fencing those revenues and not spending them because they are unreliable and would lead to the overheating of our economy. Linking it to long-term needs such as pensions, climate and general contingencies is a very sound idea.

How long does Mr. Barnes think the receipts from corporation tax are going to be "unreliable", to use his word.

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

I think the whole point is that we do not know. The uncertainty around this is massive. There are short-term uncertainties given that we are very reliant on a small number of companies. They may become more or less profitable or might restructure in some way; all sorts of things could happen. In the longer term, there is the question about their profitability and questions about the international tax regime. There have been big reforms already but we never know when this can come back on the table. It is impossible to know and that is why it is not even sensible to put a number on it in the sense that we should wait until we have it and then we will know. Until then, we do not know.

The number that seems to have been put on it is that around €12 billion of the €24 billion appears to be from the windfall tax. Is that correct Dr. Casey?

Dr. Eddie Casey

That is more or less in line with what we would estimate as well. We are slightly higher but not much. An interesting and useful way to think about this is how long it would take for the core corporation tax receipts that we estimate, that is, the non-windfall bit, to catch up to where we are now. If we take it that this normally grows in line with the domestic economy, so that the overall profits in the economy and how we measure those, typically we would use something like GNI* or domestic gross value added, it would take years and years for it to catch up to the level we are at now. To answer the Deputy's first question, it is just unknowable. It could take a very long time for this to be considered as all being contributed by the domestic economy. It is clearly driven by foreign multinational profits.

In terms of ring-fencing these funds, does Dr. Casey have any view as to how long these funds should be ring-fenced for or does he think they should be kept as a rainy day fund to be exercised by the Government when it wishes?

Dr. Eddie Casey

The appeal of ring-fencing it is that the returns can then be used as a sustainable resource coming out of the investment. If we, like they do in the paper, assume there is a 3% real return, then that would generate money that can then be used to put towards day-to-day activities and spending, and specifically towards costs like ageing costs and higher pensions costs that we know we are going to have to face in the future and that we do not currently have funded.

Another point mentioned in his statement, and this is not unusual in that most statutory bodies that come before the committee say this, is that Mr. Barnes believes the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council may need an increase in its resources. Will he elaborate on why that is please?

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

There are two issues in that. First, the council's budget is also ring-fenced because in some countries, the governments have taken revenge against assessments they did not like by cutting the budget or moving the fiscal council to very small remote towns as they did in Denmark, which of course is a nice thing in a way but has other inconveniences. Our budget is ring-fenced but it is being linked to inflation. Of course, most of our costs, for those sitting around there, are linked to wages. There is an issue of catching up to where we were before. We have had someone's contract expired that we have not been able to renew and that has limited our ability to do our job. We are in discussions with the Department of Finance about that. If we had some of these additional tasks, it is not a huge amount that would be needed. One extra person is probably what we are talking about but it is important to note that.

Across the European Union, is there sometimes a tense relationship between fiscal advisory bodies and governments?

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

Sometimes there is and it is episodic as well. Sometimes different things are happening and it is very useful for finance ministers to have a fiscal council that is helping to explain some of the challenges facing the public finances. There are the cases where it has been more complicated for different reasons. One concern in terms of the reforms is that we have these proposals in front of us from the Commission that envisage a larger role for national independent financial institutions, IFIs. There is a concern that the member states will push back against this and the role of IFIs will be less than the Commission is currently proposing. Now that is obviously a policy choice but there are some areas where it would very much hamper the functioning of the new rules if one were to take out that level of independent oversight at national level. It is not just us in Ireland but it is taking out the oversight of the Independent Authority for Fiscal Responsibility, AIReF, in Spain or the Haut Conseil des Finances Publiques in France. In a sense, we are benefiting from the work of these other councils. There is a danger in these discussions, which are essentially between finance ministry officials, that they tell themselves that these fiscal councils are a bit of a nuisance sometimes. They call out their forecasts for being wrong and hold them to account and therefore they decide to water that bit down. That is something that people should think about when looking at these reforms. It is certainly something the EU Independent Fiscal Institutions Network is following very closely.

The Irish Fiscal Advisory Council's equivalent in the UK is the Office for Budgetary Responsibility, OBR, is that correct?

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

Yes.

Of course, that did not really work out for the British Government when it decided it would ignore the advice of the OBR. Is that not correct?

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

That was a very telling episode. The transparency around the public finances is very important for many reasons. It is important in terms of public debate but also for market confidence. What happened in the UK was perceived at being an attempt to get around that. Of course, people who want to pursue things in a non-transparent way raise questions about why they are doing that. It shows the role of fiscal councils and why they are important.

Finally, would Mr. Barnes agree that a fiscal council could have an influence on market conditions in respect of a country if it made negative statements or if it was not consulted?

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

I think that is true. It is all about transparency. Markets want to understand what they are investing in and having an independent expert body looking at it is very helpful in that context. Any government that appears not to want to have that scrutiny naturally raises questions. The UK is a very telling example of that.

I thank Mr. Barnes.

I thank Mr. Barnes for his presentation. The first thing I want to ask is around the old rules and the new rules. Does Mr. Barnes think there is sufficient room for both of them, or sufficient flexibility for us to be able to do what we need to do to drive growth and do the necessary transformational work to address regional inequality and the climate change challenges we have?

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

At least in the Irish case, within the existing framework and within the spending rule that the Government is putting in place, the Government is also trying to undertake the biggest public investment programme in the State's history in keeping investment at a very high rate by international and by Irish historical standards. There is space but it comes down to making choices. Much of the debate around investment in the European context is a little bit like this. Some people are of the view that the rules prevented investment while others are of the view that governments, within the rules, chose not to prioritise investment and chose to prioritise consumption instead. It is partly a matter of choice within the rules therefore there is space to do these things. What is very important in an Irish context is to improve the planning for the longer term. Now we have ten-year economic forecasts from the Government for the first time, which is helpful in structuring the way to think about this. This is particularly the case around climate, where we have these important targets for 2030 but we do not really have a credible plan about how the Government will get there and what the fiscal implications are. We think some of the investment is already in the NDP, but we do not really know. All of these planning things are important and making these choices between what the level of taxation is and between different types of spending. It is possible to tackle these things but choices have to be made.

Dr. Eddie Casey

I will add to that because it is a really good question. We might need to get away from thinking about things in terms of whether we can afford or finance them or if they will be allowed under the rules and more towards thinking if it is the right thing for the economy now and will we get as much value for money if we do it today as opposed to, say, if we did not have full employment and these capacity constraints we are facing in construction and elsewhere. Are there other ways to achieve the same ends rather than just throwing money at the problem? These are the types of questions we need to start thinking about carefully because the financing constraint is not really a problem for Ireland.

On the capacity constraints in particular, we have had several discussions around the National Training Fund because obviously, we are coming up to having €1.5 billion in the National Training Fund. How will that be treated under the new fiscal rules? There seems to be a real confusion at the moment from the Government about if and how it can mobilise that fund. That was never intended to be a reserve fund and now it has ballooned to €1 billion to €1.5 billion, while we have these huge shortages in skills and further and higher education.

That is one of the things that will prevent us from implementing what has been promised in the national development plan. Why is there a reluctance to spend the money? What technical issues are preventing us from spending the money that has been accrued in the fund?

Dr. Eddie Casey

I am not sure of the specifics. I guess it is a question of how much money has been built up in the fund and how fast that can be released while sticking to the rules, for example, today's expenditure benchmark which does not apply under EU rules, and we have the national spending rules as well. If we were to suddenly use all that money in one year, would we exceed the spending limit because of it if we are already at the limit? The Government tends to have a target of moving exactly in line with the spending rule and to spend no more and no less. If we were to suddenly use all of this money, it would push us over the ceiling.

That is what we are trying to get at. I am trying to get at how the Government operates. The fund is currently invested in Exchequer notes at commercial rates. The Exchequer notes are liabilities of the Irish State similar to treasury bills, or T-bills. If we put money into, say, the National Reserve Fund or the National Training Fund, as it is currently stored, that would increase the national debt. Likewise, to access that money requires an equal and corresponding repayment of the same amount of the national debt but there would be no effect on the general government debt. I know this is complicated but I am trying to get to the bottom of it because it is important that we understand how the Government has set all that up and the impact it will have on debt. I ask the witnesses to shed some light on the matter.

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

We are not experts on the National Training Fund, which we will look at more closely. Obviously, one has to be a little careful about these different funds as otherwise one ends up in complicated accounting and pots of money everywhere. Sometimes funds like this, though not in this case, are used as a way to get around the rules so one has to be a bit careful about them. There are good funds and that is what we are taking about regarding the fund the Government is proposing and the kind of fund we have been talking about.

A problem we had before with the EU rules, as they were, was that it was okay to put money into a rainy-day fund but it was never clear how one would actually be able to spend it on the way out. That is a concern we have raised a number of times. Under the new framework, which is now less binding on Ireland, we would be able to put in place our own arrangements for withdrawing money from these funds, which is obviously very important. It is not that we are giving away this money; it is that we are going to use it later. There need to be controls on that because, obviously, with a bigger fund, it might be tempting for someone to spend it all at some point. Therefore, there need to be controls around that. It is good that we are in an environment where it may be easier for us to manage funds and put money in and take it out at some later date. That is an improvement.

The other issue is that the fund proposed by the Government today is very different from the National Reserve Fund it had a year ago. The National Reserve Fund and, by the sounds of it, the National Training Fund are essentially accounting devices within the Government's accounts. The kind of fund that is now being talked about is a finance fund that will make investments in things that will have a real return. That is very different and much more like what Norway has today.

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

The proposed fund has the benefit that it earns a return. One implication of that is that if one invests in those things, the government debt will be higher than it would have been had it been used to pay down debt. There are, however, advantages to doing that. One is in terms of the politics but also in anticipating these future costs, which we are know are coming around ageing and are probably coming around climate, although it is less clear what those are. There is a genuine advantage to doing that. There is some advantage to the fact that investing might deliver a return. There is also an advantage, potentially, in terms of diversifying risk. We are a small country and are very dependent on some activities. If we invest some of our money globally, it will not be correlated to the Irish economy so it is also a form of risk diversification. This new kind of fund is quite different and would have, potentially, a number of advantages. One implication is that it would mean debt would be a bit higher for longer but of course Ireland is paying very low interest costs at the moment, and will continue to do so for some time. I hope my comments have been helpful in terms of thinking about these matters.

Yes. How far does the proposed fund diverge from the Norwegian fund model or is it precisely the same?

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

The basic idea of taking money and investing it for the long term is essentially what the Norwegians have done. The Norwegians have the advantage that they have a huge amount of money in their fund.

That is because they handled their oil and gas properly.

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

The amount probably far exceeds anything that we could ever hope for. The Norwegians run it in a slightly different way. Interestingly, they take the value of the fund and assume a notional return, which is something like 3%. They spend a very small proportion of the total value of the fund. The fund has reached astronomical proportions so the 3% is worth quite a lot relative to incomes in Norway.

The Norwegian model is very good. Recently, we had a conference where one of the people who designed the fund explained to us how successful it had been. The success was partly due to using the money sensibly for future generations and not blowing it all at once. It was also because the Norwegians had a bad experience in the past with overheating their economy by spending all the money. It is a good model that is worth thinking about, although the circumstances are a bit different from ours.

Yes, Mr. Barnes is right. Norway has the experience and we can learn from it how its model or strategy has evolved over two decades. I attended the conference in question. We have asked the former Governor of the Central Bank to attend a meeting of the Committee on Budgetary Oversight to tease out some of those issues because we can learn from doing so.

I disagree with what Mr. Barnes said about flooding. Many flood relief projects need to be done because they are preventing growth in many of our small towns. In Ballina and Crossmolina, County Mayo, my home place, there cannot be any further development and job creation until the flood relief projects are done. It is crazy that it is taking so long for these projects to be done.

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

I agree with the Deputy. My point was more that if we had not broken the climate, we would not need to do that.

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

Given where we are, that is obviously the right thing to do.

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

If we had managed the climate better, we would not need to do this, so it is a cost essentially.

Yes, and that type of investment will ensure growth in the future in some of these towns.

We heard that the advice given on the EU fiscal rules was unsound. I ask Mr. Barnes to elaborate on the aspects of the rules that were unsound. What does IFAC mean by unsound?

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

There were a number of concerns about the way the previous rules were designed at the beginning, which meant they gave the wrong signals on both sides. Some countries should have been disciplined that were not and some countries that were disciplined but maybe should not have been. Also, that made the rules very hard to enforce. The most obvious one was the so-called one-twentieth debt rule, which made no sense. When the EU tried to apply it to Italy the Italians rightly pointed out that if they were applied, it would lead to a massive procyclical contraction and that they could not do it. They were absolutely right about that.

The more subtle one was around the structural balance rules. As a lot of work done by IFAC has shown, a big problem there is that the Commission has used this commonly agreed methodology to work out the potential output and the output gap. However, there are a lot of problems with those methods. They are always difficult because they involve trying to measure things that one cannot see such as the potential output of the economy.

What role does the council play in identifying unsound rules?

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

IFAC has a statutory obligation to monitor compliance with the domestic equivalents of those rules. What we have done is used some of the leeway we have domestically to implement them in a more sensible way. We have developed our own measure of the output gap and the potential output for Ireland, which is very similar to the one the Department of Finance adopted. That gives us a much better signal about the state of the economy and one that is also much less prone to revision, which is a big problem. The European method is very volatile so every time we look at it, it is like Freddy Kruger's cat because it keeps changing, disappearing or reappearing.

On IFAC, obviously it helps if both the EU and national authorities give the same or similar coherent assessments. We have always had a presumption that it would be sensible if we and the Commission found compliance or non-compliance, and that there should not be big differences. There have been a number of occasions where we thought that the signals coming out of the European methods were so unreliable that we said to the Government it should ignore them because they did not make sense.

The Commission was never very interested in enforcing the fiscal rules against Ireland, I think, because Ireland's performance overall was relatively good. There have been some differences in assessment and some cases in which IFAC has also taken a stricter view than the Commission. The Commission examines many countries, so it tends to focus on those where the biggest problems are. That does not mean there have not been times when things in Ireland have been of genuine concern but the Commission has not really taken it up and we have not hesitated in those cases to point it out. There has always been a slightly dual relationship. One would hope that EU and national levels would be broadly in the same direction but one cannot rule out disagreements either way.

On the first of the open questions regarding the simulations of the trajectories, they have still to be published yet the simulations have obviously been done.

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

Yes.

Can they be requested? It is important, in the interest of transparency, openness and having that type of relationship, that the simulations and information it has are made available to member states.

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

That information has been made available to member states but on a confidential basis, in my understanding.

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

The Department of Finance would know. It is not for us to say how these things should be communicated but it is a concern in a process which is trying to build ownership at national level. As of today, one can read what all of the documents say but cannot see what the Commission actually suggests fiscal policy will be like under the new rules. The Network of EU Independent Fiscal Institutions has also called for these to be published. The reason they have not is, I think, because they are politically sensitive things people are negotiating about. As we have seen, people added different things to the original proposals so the trajectories will now be different. You can sort of work out, if you are an economist and have enough time on your hands, what it would mean for individual countries. It is a barrier to more open debate that this has not been produced. These are just the trajectories; there is also a lot of technical work behind on what would happen if the economy goes in a different trajectory than what we thought and what it will mean. This is one of the problems, for example, with the one-twentieth rule, which was badly designed from the start. If someone had spent an afternoon with a spreadsheet, they would have understood why it did not make any sense. Instead, it appeared in text and people thought it sounded like a good idea. It is important to have rigorous testing of these things, which requires transparency and openness about the assumptions, which are not there.

How far into the future are the trajectories done? Is it to 2050?

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

This is an important issue. As this initial period can be from four to seven years and is then assessed over the following ten years, that means it is potentially looking at economic forecasts 17 years ahead, which economists rarely do because it is so hard to predict. One big question is whether this set of rules will still be here in five years. Those numbers can move around a lot. The amount of adjustment to some of the assumptions needed over a ten-year period is very sensitive. That is why it would be helpful for the Commission to publish that kind of information, in order that people can assess them.

It is a very interesting discussion. I wish to pick up on the discussion of previous fiscal rules. Mr. Barnes mentioned the one-twentieth rule and how poorly thought-out it was. I am concerned that there is not a sufficient evolution from the previous fiscal rules. Regarding consequences, I think Mr. Barnes mentioned the lack of enforceabilty and compliance but the consequences have been quite severe societally, politically and environmentally in terms of the fiscal rules. For example, almost a decade was lost in many areas such as climate and long-term investments because of the focus on the short-term rules. Housing was mentioned; perhaps the witnesses can confirm the following. A strong rationale given consistently regarding decisions for the State to engage in long-term leasing of houses rather than construction of housing was the fiscal rules and trying to ensure we were meeting the annual targets, rather than front-loading investment. I am concerned about the impact of these rules on public investment and that the 60% and 3% rules will still be involved, which I know cannot be moved, but not enough seems to have been done to work around them. Is it correct that only six countries meet the 3% target and a majority of countries in the EU do not meet the 60% target? I think that is the case at the moment.

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

I think that sounds broadly correct. Regarding the 3%, one must remember that we have been through Covid and a major energy crisis. Every country is doing very big one-off programmes so I do not think it is representative of the underlying position. The 3% is not specified in the underlying position but in most countries, if the energy supports are not repeated, public finances will be dramatically better next year than they were this year.

Politically, the assumption should be that major factors can and will change. One such factor, which is not speculation and we know is a major factor, is climate. While Ireland may be in a position to invest in climate, I am very concerned that climate is not something that can be tackled as one country. The EU, for example, needs to tackle it collectively, as indeed does the world.

I am concerned that these fiscal rules, as applied to our fellow countries across Europe, serve to further constraints, as they did during austerity, on investment for climate action. Will the witnesses comment on climate investment? There are two aspects I would like them to comment on. The witnesses have the graphic; I think it is on one of the additional slides. When we talk about shocks, we want to prevent them but not investing in a timely way in preventative spending causes shocks. Mr. Barnes gave the example, which I have given before, of flood defences. There may or may not be a growth return but the fact is, unless we spend that money, we create a greater risk of natural disasters and shocks to the entire system from the impacts of climate change. What is the scope in preventative spending in that context and even, specifically, in the debt sustainability analysis in which I think Mr. Barnes sees the independent fiscal institutions having a role? What is the scope for reflecting preventative spending in that regard or in the net performance indicators for the State? I believe we lost a lot of time on climate action due to the rules.

Dr. Eddie Casey

The Senator raises some brilliant questions, especially on the idea that we may have lost a decade for climate action and the like and investment in various areas. It is important to note this is not really a failure down to the rules and how they work. Rather, it is one of public choices not being made to move in that direction. Many countries now do not even have a plan for how much they think it will cost to address climate action targets. The plans are not even made, costings are not done and are not factored into budgets. This is not about whether it could have been done; they have not even left the starting point.

On whether the rules would have prevented countries from doing this, the answer is "No" because there was flexibility for investment more than there was for current spending. Countries were allowed some exemption to smooth through big spikes in investment spending under the rules. They were allowed to depart from the rules for a temporary period if they could prove it added to overall sustainability over the long term and it met certain big objectives. They could always raise revenues to finance these things if they thought they were really deserving of investment. I do not think it is a fair characterisation that the rules were the sole preventer of these things being done.

In climate, countries are being asked to adjust downwards, potentially year on year, at a time when we know major transitions involved in climate require front-loaded expenditure.

Some of that front-loaded expenditure, as we have mentioned, is not going to be reflected in four- or seven-year profit or growth figures. It is going to be preventative in that it will be reflected in the ten- to 15-year consequence. There has been an impact. We saw it because lots of countries have parked capital expenditure for a long period.

The reason I am pulling out these impacts is so we can ensure we do not make the same mistakes. Another area where we saw them was on housing, specifically in Ireland. The fiscal rules were cited as the reason for adopting a leasing approach rather than a public investment or public housing approach for many years, and rather than purchase or construction, which is a heavier expenditure upfront but is actually fiscally more prudent than leasing.

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

On the broad point of climate change and investment, as Dr. Casey said, the rules are part of it but it comes down to choices as well. We do not have the luxury of just dealing with the climate change problem by itself. At the same time, most countries are ageing, many countries are facing very slow growth and a number of countries have genuine issues around fiscal sustainability. On our debt chart, they are in the risky part compared to us, as we are at a much safer level. Politicians need to make choices between how they are going to prioritise these different aspects. That in a sense has been the failure. As Dr. Casey said, it is partly through lack of planning and lack of political urgency. These choices kind of have to be made together.

In Ireland, we are in a relatively favourable position where we have quite strong growth, revenue has been quite strong and we have been able to finance those investments without having to sacrifice other things. That is really the question that faces countries that are in more difficult positions. At the same time as we have the urgency of the climate situation, we cannot ignore that we also have these other issues around fiscal sustainability and ageing that are very pressing. If we look at some of these other countries - I will not name them specifically - the way they have allocated public spending over the past couple of years has not been great. They have spent money on wasteful subsidies basically. They should have spent that money on climate change but they did not. They made that choice and it has implications for all of us because we are all operating in the same euro area debt market.

On a more positive note, what is also important and what we have not discussed so far is the role of the recovery and resilience plan at EU level. The way that is allocated, the money goes disproportionately to countries that have bigger challenges with public finances. A lot of that money has gone to Italy and a number of other countries. They are using that to finance public investment. Also if we look at eastern Europe, for many of the countries a large part of their capital investment would be financed directly through the EU and that is outside the scope of the rules. There is partly a response through these other channels that give these countries more scope to invest. Ultimately, countries need to take responsibility for the choices they make.

I am looking to the fact that the 60% and the 3% are arbitrary constructs and, while we need to set a construct perhaps somewhere, the climate science is quite clear and is a very hard science in that regard. It is a concern. The fiscal rules have had an impact. I mentioned the example of leasing. If we look forward, another example, which is a consequence of the previous application, is the austerity measures. It was interesting that the example given of what we might do with the 0.5 immediately went to not raising public sector wages. There is a shortfall of nurses, teachers, gardaí and everything else at the moment in Ireland. A freeze has impacts and creates social cohesion problems. In regard to public investment, the rule about the state as the spender or investor of last resort is another piece that has come under the economic governance area. There is this assumption that the state would be the investor of last resort. Because many countries were forced to adopt short-term measures and move to contracted staff or services or leasing during the period of austerity, even if those countries, such as Ireland, are now fiscally sound, we are constrained in how we expend, even at times when direct public expenditure might be a more financially effective method of achieving a goal, rather than through a private market measure with the various costs and risks that come with that.

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

I agree that public spending choices should not be distorted by the fiscal rules. There may be a case for private delivery but that case should rest on its own merits. If it does not exist, it is hard to see why the Government should do it in a more inefficient way. The point is more that at the higher level, governments need to make choices. It is very difficult for them to make choices because there is very pressing social need. There are strong demands from the public for different things and there is a certain reluctance in raising taxation as well, from a political point of view, which we see in many places. It is these hard choices that need to be made. When governments try to avoid them, they may put fiscal sustainability at risk.

Stepping back from it, if we look at many advanced economies over the past 30 years, debt has just been on an upward trajectory. When there is a crisis, debt goes up, and then during the good times instead of bringing debt back down so we can cope with the next one, we level it off and then another crisis hits and it goes up. That never happened because anyone thought it was a good idea. It happened because governments were unable to control public finances. That is kind of why we need this sort of framework to discipline those controls. Otherwise all we are doing is eroding fiscal sustainability. We are increasing risk and at some point that will correct in a way that we know can be very painful. It is important for governments to keep their balance sheets in good condition, precisely to allow them to do all the social action they need to do.

Dr. Eddie Casey

An interesting thought experiment is to think back to Ireland in the 2000s and what happened then. If there were no fiscal rules in place and no constraint on how much they could spend, we would run the risk that a lot of countries might just add to all the other existing spending that they want to do and all the other measures that they have pressures in such as housing, ageing-related costs and wages in the sectors the Senator mentioned. They might also want to do the climate measures on top of that and they would not really increase taxes to pay for any of this; they would just do it through additional borrowing. What would happen in that case is that we would see a rise in debt. Eventually it would have to correct and they would be forced out of market access because lenders would not give any more money to them. They would have to enter a programme. Unfortunately, what we saw in Ireland in the 2000s was that Government at the time and governments across Europe slashed capital spending because it was the easiest thing to reduce, rather than current spending. I am not sure that really blaming the rules is necessarily a wise thing to do in this context.

It is broadly acknowledged that there have been problems with the rules. To be clear, it is not a simple matter of public expenditure that caused the crisis. It was speculation. Part of it is areas of the economy being left in a space for speculation, which can prove to be expensive and inflationary. We have seen, for example, significant inflation in respect of housing costs that is not solely driven by construction costs and so forth but has been driven by the fact that the market is so significantly exposed to speculative interests. We are seeing that again. It is very important that we be vigilant in respect of these issues. I do see that opportunities may have been lost. Social cohesion has been damaged across Europe and that is why the Recovery and Resilience Facility and all these additional funds were created, because a lot of countries were significantly depleted, for example in respect of their public services on health. There is very clear impact. The leasing example I have given is a very clear and direct result which has had an inflationary impact in respect of housing and construction.

I want to pull in to the details of what is actually being debated now.

I remind the Senator that we have to move to the second session as well and will have to adjourn for a short while. I want to allow her in.

That is fine, Chair. I have waited until last. I will outline my points here if I can have answers on two issues in respect of the potential role of the independent fiscal institutions, IFIs.

In respect of debt sustainability assessments and the assumptions that go into them, does IFAC see a role for itself in the input of those assumptions and, for example, does the council see that preventative spending mechanism as being part of that? What engagement does the council seek from the legislature on the assumptions that go into debt sustainability assessment? Specifically, Dr. Eddie Casey mentioned a role for national budgetary frameworks. Can I ask where we are planning to move, for example, towards a well-being budget? We know that we have shadow carbon budgeting, which is a new requirement. We are also looking to the long-standing commitment with respect to gender and equality budgeting but can the council clarify how it sees its role in respect of the national budgetary framework reflecting all of these other factors, all of which are also risk factors?

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

There are a number of questions there. On the debt sustainability analysis, this is something the council already does. We developed our own model to do it and all of that is available for people to read on the Internet. That is part of our assessment of the overall fiscal stance. We found that quite a helpful tool in thinking about risks.

In the Commission proposals, it proposes-----

Is that just financial risks, just to clarify the point, or is there a space for incorporating those other risks with regard to preventative risks and spending?

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

It is mostly risks to growth and we also take into account the risk of more extreme financial events. We do not explicitly take into account climate-related risks although, to a degree, they may come up in the growth risks. Obviously, they are difficult to quantify but they are something which are important to think about, together with the contingencies which may be required. The Commission proposals proposed that national IFIs would do debt sustainability analysis as a sort of input to the whole process. That would be consistent with what we do. With many of these requirements for countries for national IFIs is that for us, we already do a great deal of it. There are a few IFIs, which play a very limited role and the Commission is trying to bring them all up to the best practice, of which we might be an example.

On national budgetary frameworks, we are already thinking about the budget process and how it works. At the moment, the Government has a ten-year horizon for its economic forecasts but in the Stability Programme Update, SPU, it is budgetary forecasts which go to 2026, which is quite short-term, in a sense. It is also quite high-level. The Government has made some progress in this area and does, for example, give a figure for the cost of maintaining the existing level of service but it is not entirely clear how it reaches that or how it fits together.

It would be very helpful ultimately, we think, to be at a lower level of detail, at the level of Departments, etc., and to set out plans that would be consistent with its overall plans so that one could see how it all fits together. The danger is where one just sets a high-level target but that it is not connected to anything underneath. That is very helpful in respect of much of what we have been discussing today, which is about making choices. Looking ahead over five years or ten years, we know that we have high pension costs coming - we do not know what they are but they are going to be higher - there will be climate costs, there is the implementation of Sláintecare and issues around health, and there are many other things there. There are also some big investment needs. The idea is that these things help to strengthen planning, which may be good thing from many other perspectives.

With respect to the public finances, we would focus the discussion on choices because if in five years, we are going to have more of this, including how we will pay for it and whether we are going to have less of something else.

That is very much the kind of process which, in a way, the European rules are trying to move towards by having a more medium-term framework rather than this annual question as to whether we comply with the rules, and what can we spend an extra "whatever it is" on budget day? It is that strategy which is important.

Is that within the carbon budgets at an EU and the national level? Do the carbon budgets sit within that or does this budgetary framework sit within the carbon envelope or carbon budget, effectively?

Mr. Sebastian Barnes

These processes would ideally be all integrated so that one would have a consistency with it. If there is a carbon budget, the financial budget is about public money is used and where the revenue comes from, but the carbon budget is how a country's carbon allocation is used. All of this needs to be consistent and that is what is, in a way, missing. At the moment we need this longer term view and this consistency between these different aspects. From our perspective on the council, progress needs to be made on understanding what the fiscal implications are of climate change. It is very important and needs to be factored in to these things in a much better way than it is today.

I thank the Senator. I also thank our witnesses for their very informative replies to the questions and to our members also for raising the questions in the first place.

I will comment on two or three of the issues raised. Short- or long-term dependency on the taxes from corporation profits is an issue that has to be measured carefully but I do not believe that we should necessarily advertise the fact that we know it is going to come to an end. That can well encourage people in the wider European community to take advantage of that, which I will explain in a second.

The benefit of the rule has been gone into in detail with regard to both the new and old rules. The old rules were okay but they were not allowed to work when they should have worked. I was one of the people who was invited - for what reason I do not know - to a meeting in Brussels in 2008 where we were effectively told that we were broke and that we were major contributors to that wreckage. I believe this meeting was chaired by Viscount Davignon and a number of people were there, including very prominent UK contributors who had a great number of things to say to us. It was a very lonely place to be. We were isolated and spoken about as if we were not there at all with the "does he take sugar in this tea?" or whatever syndrome. It was a sad place to be because we, unfortunately, had overspent, as had a number of other countries at the same time, and we are not in a position to recover overnight to the same extent that other countries were because they had greater resources.

Incidentally, in respect to Norway, which is not a member of the EU, it has significant oil and gas resources on its shoreline. While it might have managed these resources fairly well, it is also subject to the worldwide rules with respect to climate change, I hope. Otherwise, we may find ourselves contributing to climate change disproportionately in an area we cannot afford and we may find ourselves in Brussels again listening to the same argument. I certainly would be anxious that that would not happen, but we have to, nonetheless, meet climate change challenges.

My next point is the one about austerity measures. Austerity is something governments can avail of from time to time to check growth, effective over-expenditure, and so on and so forth. That option was not available then. There was no option. The options we were given at that meeting were to face the reality and to accept and operate the cuts to the extent of one third of the pensions and salaries, and of everything, or to have these cuts imposed by up to two thirds, in which case there would have been devastation. This was not an issue of choice but one of absolute necessity and survival. We then had to have the areas such as agriculture and the agrifood industry to help us recover. If we damage that sector to any great extent in trying to achieve climate changes, we will have a difficulty there also. Let us know what we need to know about these things beforehand.

My final point is on how we handle the extra taxes from corporation profits. I believe one thing is essential which is our willingness and readiness to spend, as it is easy to do that and there are very many good reasons on which we can spend that money at any time, but one thing, however, is certain. If the ratio of spending to the total size of the national debt and indebtedness, which controls our ability to borrow, is not kept in some kind of tandem with each other, at some time in the future there is no doubt we will find ourselves in another difficult situation that we may not be able to control to the same extent as we did on the previous occasion. That is because we have a much bigger population now, much bigger responsibilities, and there is always the possibility of another war taking place.

All I can say is that the famous meeting in that oval room in Brussels, where the Commission meets, was a sad place to be at the time. We did not have many friends. In the middle of all of that, some of our European friends were not all that helpful. They were very quick to blame this country for the woes of everybody else. It was easy to do that, of course, but we survived, if only just. Again, I thank our guests for being with us today. We will suspend for a few minutes before we begin our second session of the day.

Sitting suspended at 3.10 p.m. and resumed at 3.17 p.m.
Top
Share