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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 20 Jan 2004

United Nations Conference on Trade and Development: Presentation.

The next item on our agenda is the exchange of views with Mr. Rubens Ricupero, Secretary General of UNCTAD, the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development. I welcome the Secretary General and Mr. Samuel Laird, the head of trade analysis for UNCTAD. Mr. Ricupero is a former Brazilian Finance Minister and trade negotiator and in his second term of office. He will preside over the 11th UNCTAD conference, which takes place in Brazil in June. This will be the first major international conference on trade since the WTO ministerial meeting in Cancun.

According to its mandate from the UN General Assembly, the UN Conference on Trade and Development is "the focal point within the United Nations for the integrated treatment of trade and development and the interrelated issues in the areas of finance, technology, investment and sustainable development". UNCTAD's activities fall into three areas: research and analysis; intergovernmental discussion; and technical co-operation.

UNCTAD's programme of work over a four-year period is set by its conferences. Brazil will host the 11th conference in Sao Paulo in June 2004. UNCTAD-11 will have four sub-schemes: development strategies in a globalising world economy; building productive capacity and international competitiveness; ensuring development gains from the international trading system and trade negotiations; and partnership for development.

I ask the Secretary General to address the committee, following which I will open discussion to the members.

Mr. Rubens Ricupero

I thank you very much, Chairman. It is my pleasure and honour to be received by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs. This is my first visit to Ireland and it takes place in the context of the preparations for the 11th United Nations Conference on Trade and Development which as you have said will take place in my country, Brazil, in about six months' time. It is my intention to have conversations with Irish representatives and authorities in their own capacity as representatives of Ireland and also as the country that now chairs the European Union in terms of what we expect from our conference.

As our name suggests, UNCTAD is about trade and development. We are not a purely trade organisation like the World Trade Organisation. We try to build a link between trade and development - not development as an end in itself, but development as a means of fighting poverty and promoting welfare in developing countries. Contrary to a widespread misperception, UNCTAD does not overlap with the WTO - we do not do the same things. The World Trade Organisation was preceded by the GATT, where I was active in the 1980s during the Uruguay round as Brazil's ambassador to Geneva and during my term I was chairman of the GATT council of representatives and of the GATT contracting parties.

As members will be aware, the GATT and WTO have two main tasks: to negotiate trade agreements and set the rules for the game; and to implement those rules, including through the dispute settlement mechanism. In our case we do neither of those tasks. We do not negotiate trade rules and we do not have a role in dispute settlement. What we do is help prepare developing countries to enhance their negotiating capabilities, to help them understand the issues that are being negotiated. We help them as well as we can to formulate negotiating positions out of their own characteristics by trying to put to good use their comparative advantages. We assist them during negotiations and afterwards we try to help them take the best advantage of the opportunities created by negotiations.

I would like to highlight something that will figure prominently in our conference in Brazil, which is a side of trade that in our opinion does not receive the attention it should. This is the problem of the supply capabilities of a country in terms of offering goods and services in the marketplace. We are persuaded on the basis of concrete first-hand experience with developing countries that one of the major reasons for frustration with previous trade negotiations, which also explains why developing countries are often reluctant in engaging in new trade negotiations, is the fact that they know they only have a very limited supply capacity.

Members will know that of more than 140 or 150 developing countries a great majority entirely rely on a small number of commodities, primary products, for the bulk of their foreign trade. Many of those commodities, products like coffee, cocoa, palm oil or even petroleum, are not the products that have anything to gain from trade negotiations as they are products whose problems do not stem from questions of market barriers but of over-supply, enormous oscillation in prices, over-production, etc. These are matters that are not under negotiation.

The solution to those problems is to try to diversify their productive sector and to enhance their capacity to offer products of a suitable quality and price - in other words to help them to become more competitive in trade matters. These kinds of problems are not addressed by the trade negotiations themselves. The main reason for the neglect of those issues has been a sort of unconscious presumption that once trade barriers are reduced the supply will automatically follow. Furthermore, there is a presumption that once one opens the trade regime countries, somehow one will be able to produce and export.

As the committee knows, this is too simplistic and in practice a small number of countries in the developing world tend to take advantage of the trade opportunities. This is why the only countries that have really been extremely successful in growing out of exports are a small number of Asian countries. The most recent and spectacular example, of course, is China, but there were others, starting with South Korea, then Singapore and Hong Kong and, later, Malaysia, Thailand, etc. We are trying to help developing countries replicate those examples to the extent that it is possible. We know very well that conditions in the east of south-east Asia are not easily replicated elsewhere. Therefore, we are dealing with what we call the other side of the moon of trade matters - not trade negotiations but the supply side constraints of countries.

I remind everyone present that we are now at a very decisive moment in the evolution of the trade system. Everyone is aware that in Cancun in September 2003 the WTO members were not able to agree on a framework in which to continue the negotiations of the so-called Doha development round. The major reasons for the stalemate were issues related to development, such as cotton subsidies, problems with negotiations on agriculture, fear on the part of African, Caribbean and Pacific members of the Cotonou agreement of losing the preferential margins, and problems related to negotiation on competition and investment. All these issues have something to do with development. In our opinion in UNCTAD, they have a strong link with the problem of supply-side constraints.

We hope our conference will help the healing process to take place, as it did back in February 2000 a few months after the failure in Seattle in November 1999. Our conference at that time offered the opportunity to countries to come together only weeks later and it set the stage for a resumption of talks that would later result in the launching of the trade negotiations. We hope we will be able to make a positive contribution to the normalisation of the negotiation process. We are working hard to achieve this goal and trying to present ideas regarding the development benchmarks that would help guiding negotiators deal with the problems that were so intractable in Cancun.

As I left Geneva this morning, I heard news about the reaction of countries in the WTO to the recent initiative taken by the United States to give central attention to other cultures in the negotiations. This reaction has been very encouraging and there are signs that in the next few months it may be possible, on the basis of some fresh ideas, to overcome the paralysis that affected this round of trade negotiations.

I am ready to address any particular questions the members of the committee would like to ask me regarding either UNCTAD or the negotiation process and the prospects in Geneva for the continuation of this process to a successful conclusion.

I thank Mr. Ricupero. If one wants to have fair trade tea or fair trade coffee one can get it in the Oireachtas restaurants.

Not at fair prices.

Would any member like to ask a question?

I apologise for arriving late. I had to attend a debate on the European Presidency in the Dáil. I join the Chairm an in welcoming the secretary general.

We had a meeting this morning before lunch with the Foreign Affairs Committee of the British House of Commons, in which we touched on Ireland's Presidency priorities. We as parliamentarians, on behalf of both Houses of the Oireachtas, asked the Irish Government many months ago to put the issues of trade, HIV/AIDS, hunger and related issues on the agenda as Presidency priorities. They are now among the Presidency priorities, a point on which our colleagues in the House of Commons remarked. We can put these issues on the agenda with some credibility because of our history in this area and our traditional work through missionaries and NGOs in the developing world.

Does Mr. Ricupero have a strategy for working with regional organisations within the global framework, particularly within the European Union, regarding the development and trade issues he mentioned? The report by the General Secretary of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, David Begg, and others, commissioned by the Oireachtas Committee on European Affairs, indicates that some €20 billion in EU aid to the Third World, Africa in particular, went unspent. Is there an UNCTAD strategy to work with regional organisations such as the European Union to try to unblock those funds and more effectively pursue an agenda of mutual interest?

I welcome Mr. Laird and Mr. Ricupero, who has just arrived on his first visit. We are delighted that he has come to us so quickly. Does UNCTAD see elements of conflict between what the WTO seeks to do in terms of trade and what it seeks to do as part of its own role, which is to aid development in countries which are perhaps not able to develop by themselves?

I have always felt that in trade policy there is an inherent dichotomy between seeking to be competitive and sustainable and, at the same time, seeking to bring countries forward and give proper advice and aid to less developed countries. That dichotomy has given rise to some of the scenes evident at WTO conferences. I would be very keen to hear the points of view of our guests on that issue.

I welcome the secretary general and Mr. Laird. What do they see as the problems arising out of countries where there is a semblance of democracy but not real democracy? How can they be helped? Is it by further aiding democracy first, combined with aid? A lot of the aid money seems to be going astray in many of these countries and into individual hands rather than being used for the benefit of the people.

The problem was mentioned in particular of supply capabilities and the organisation of supplies, which I presume takes into consideration also questions of accessing markets, marketing within these markets and the organisation of supplies for greatest efficiency and benefit. Could our guests say something about that area? What is being done in terms of the organisation of production and marketing?

In Ireland we had the co-operative movement, and under the EU we had producer groups encouraging people to come together in groups and market with more muscle. That has been one of the big developments here over recent years, which has kept our farmers in business, in the first instance. They would have been wiped out otherwise.

Another question comes to mind. Our guests mentioned the Asian countries and how they have succeeded in their exports. What do they see from their experience there that could be translated into, say, Africa? The committee has a great interest in Africa, and as we have said, the Presidency is highlighting Africa particularly, making it one of the priorities. What changes would our guests like to see the US and the EU making to their development aid policies to encourage the kind of sustainable development in the 140 to 150 developing countries mentioned?

Mr. Ricupero

I thank the committee very much for the excellent questions, which we will take in order. Indeed we have a strategy of working very closely, particularly with the European Union and a number of other regional organisations, including those providing arrangements for free trade in Africa, for instance, and Latin America and Asia. We supply a great deal of assistance to the African, Caribbean and Pacific countries, the ACP, in their negotiations with the European Union. At the same time, we have a working relationship of assistance with the smaller organisations for regional co-operation and with the European Union. We have a partnership in order to promote trade as an instrument of development.

I will give the committee a concrete example. Two years ago in Brussels we organised the third United Nations conference for the least developed countries because UNCTAD is the focal point in the United Nations system for the 49 poorest among the poor, the countries where most of the population lives on under €1 a day or, at a maximum, €2 a day. Of those 49 countries, 34 are in Africa, so there is almost a match between the poorest countries and the African countries. We organised this conference in Brussels and it was the first time the European Parliament agreed to offer its premises for an international conference.

We worked very closely with Commissioners Nielsen and Lami, and most of the support, including financial support, for this conference came from the European Union. At the same time, the European Union encourages UNCTAD to work also on regional integration and to try to help the agreements, particularly in Africa, that exist among countries but where there is an enormous need of technical assistance in order to help them to move ahead in dealing with reduction of tariffs or harmonisation among different groupings.

We are working in the area of regional integration with regional organisations, and at the same time we try to help countries that are participating in free trade negotiations to make those negotiations within the global rules. As one can see, we are engaged in a wide array of activities in regard to co-operation with regional groupings aimed at achieving different goals.

It is true that conflicts may arise. This possibility explains the usefulness of having an institution like UNCTAD which is separate from the WTO. The WTO is purely a trade organisation and its members repeat that it is not a development agency. The main goal of the WTO is to promote free trade as quickly as possible. The basic constitution of the WTO is the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, the objective of which is trade entirely free of any kind of barriers.

In trying to promote this goal the WTO services negotiations. In acting as the secretariat for negotiations it must be impartial and cannot take sides. The difference with us is that, not being a negotiating agency, we have more freedom to support developing country members, something the WTO cannot do because it would be accused of taking sides in the negotiations. Our role and membership is universal. Although our membership is universal, UNCTAD's membership is even bigger than that of the General Assembly. We are a subsidiary body of the General Assembly of the United Nations, but we have an even bigger constituency. Switzerland is a member of UNCTAD, for instance, and until a few years ago it was not a member of the General Assembly, and there are a few other such members.

Although we are members of the General Assembly and our constituency is universal, it is well understood that UNCTAD tries to promote development through trade. Therefore it is accepted that we should help and try to assist the developing companies in their negotiations.

It is true that from time to time some conflicts do arise. I will give a concrete example of this from the opening only a few months ago in Geneva of ECOSOC, Economic and Social Council of the United Nations, where in the first meeting devoted to rural development and problems of agriculture I made a strong statement criticising the damage done by the cotton subsidies, first and foremost from the United States - there are also some cotton subsidies, although on a much smaller scale, in the EU for Spain and Greece and also in China. I devoted a good part of my statement to the problems that those cotton subsidies were creating for some of the poorest countries in the world like Benin, Mali, Burkina Faso, Sudan. It happened that on the same day US Ambassador Negroponte had a meeting with me a few hours later and of course he was not entirely pleased, to say the least, with what I had said. In a case such as this I see it as my duty, without any wish to create new antagonisms, to tell the truth.

We have to help bring about rules in trade that would be fairer to those poor countries. Therefore from time to time we may have those different perspectives but a solution can always be found if one does not lose sight of the fact that our main goal is promoting development through trade, not trading of itself. This is why we do not always support shock therapy for countries to raise their trade regimes irrespective of the consequences, for instance, in terms of increasing unemployment. We are more careful in trying to assess the social impact of trade measures that one knows are very important, not only in developing countries but even in developed societies.

Turning to the question of democracy and corruption, there is now much progress under way in trying to link good governance and practices with an appropriate response by the international community in terms of foreign aid. For example, under the current scheme for debt relief, the so-called heavily indebted poor countries, HIPC, initiative one of the requirements for a country to qualify for debt relief is exactly its performance in a number of governance indicators which have to do with good practices, including fighting corruption and having a participative kind of system which is democratic, and openness to criticism and to dialogue. I do not mean that this is an ideal solution to the problem of promoting institutions that are democratic and free from corruption, but increasingly as one can see in NEPAD, the New Partnership for Africa's Development, there is now an awareness by the African countries themselves of the need for them to have ownership of those governance practices and to try to improve the quality of the political system.

On the question on the supply capability and marketing, etc., I would highlight that Ireland, in this respect, is an extremely positive example for many developing countries. These countries are perfectly aware that Ireland has had the fastest rates of growth in the European Union for a long period of time, that the Irish economy went through a profound transformation and that one of the elements of that transformation was the success of Irish policies in targeting foreign direct investment and in bringing investment that would create new sources of employment which also would bring to Ireland the possibility of building a very successful export platform. Of course we know that very few countries in the world could replicate Ireland's conditions in terms of political institutions, legal and judicial system, level of education and many other aspects which, in Ireland's case, go a long way to explain the success.

Ireland's example, however, has been extremely useful to our organisation because UNCTAD works hard promoting foreign direct investment and we were actually instrumental, together with another UN agency, United Nations Industrial Development Organisation, UNIDO, in the creation of the first world association of investment promotion agencies which now is a completely autonomous entity. This association was for a long time chaired by the director of the Irish public entity that dealt with investment promotion. Therefore all the work that has been done in this area of promoting investment has taken to a large extent the Irish model as an inspiration, although we are very acutely aware of the difference. This leads me to the second part of the question, namely, whether these experiences can be replicated. What one can do is always relative in terms of trying to transfer experiences from a particular national setting to a different one. The interest of members in Africa was referred to. It is good to have this interest because the biggest challenge we all face relates to the development of the least developed countries. As can be seen from my statistics, most of the least developed countries are African. This is increasingly becoming an African problem. Africa is where the international community will face the biggest challenge in meeting the so-called millennium development goals to halve poverty by 2015, reduce infant mortality, increase the number of children in school and increase the number of girls in school. This is where the problem lies. In Africa there are not many of the institutions which favoured the development of Asian countries.

I want to concentrate on one aspect of the problem. In my personal experience with development, if I had to sum it up in a few words, I would say that development is a continuous learning process. It is something that will never stop. The main difference between the Asian approach, starting with Japan in the 19th century and going straight through all the other experiences up to China nowadays, and what prevailed in other areas in Latin America, Africa and the Caribbean, is exactly a sort of intuitive understanding that development was a learning process, something that one had to approach, beginning with education and investment in human resources - not any kind of education but education that would lead people to learn how to compete and improve the workings of the economy.

Unfortunately, this approach is not widespread. In many countries there was a tendency to concentrate on the role of the state as promoter of development. The state has an irreplaceable role to play in promoting development. It can only do so, however, if it has a clear priority on development as a learning process, something that will always challenge one and which never ceases. In our work, we try to persuade countries that this is a fundamental and decisive factor. There must be a capacity to learn from other people's experience and to try to make the best possible use of natural and human resources. I hope I have addressed some, if not all, aspects of the problem.

I thank the secretary general and Mr. Laird for coming here today and for giving us their insights into the work of UNCTAD. We particularly welcome the emphasis on lifelong learning. It currently applies to us and it has helped us with our learning process. I thank the delegation for coming and wish them well in their work.

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