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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sub-Committee on Human Rights) debate -
Thursday, 19 May 2005

Report on Human Rights: Presentation.

I welcome our colleague, Deputy Coveney, MEP, who is here to discuss his work on his Annual Report on Human Rights in the world 2004 and EU policy on the matter which was drafted for the European Parliament. I understand Deputy Coveney's report covers all issues of human rights, including the death penalty and prisoners' rights. As members will be aware these are two issues on which the committee is trying to concentrate. We are pleased Mr. Coveney, MEP, is with us and that we have an opportunity to hear from him.

I wish to draw to his attention that while members of the committee have absolute privilege that same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the joint committee.

I presume that would not apply to a Member of the House.

I have posed that question but have not got satisfactory clearance for him to say anything too wild. We will advise him to remain careful.

There is ambiguity in that area.

Does he wish to be the first on trial? I invite Mr. Coveney, MEP, to speak for ten or 15 minutes following which I am sure my colleagues will have questions to put to him on this valuable report.

I thank the joint committee for the opportunity to make this presentation. I thank Deputy Carey, in particular, for being present. I hope one or two other colleagues will arrive later although it is lunch time.

I became an MEP last summer. As anyone who has been to the European Parliament will know MEPs, soon after been elected, specialise in certain areas. I had two areas of real interest in which I wanted to get involved — foreign affairs and human rights-development and an economic-business area. I am on the internal market committee from a business point of view and on the foreign affairs committee from a foreign affairs point of view within the European Parliament and have now been made spokesperson for the EPP on human rights issues.

My first report within the European Parliament was a somewhat controversial one — that was the reason I took it on — the annual report on human rights in the world and EU policy in that area. Last year there was quite a bitter debate on the report where the Parliament divided on the thorny issue of abortion and whether termination of pregnancy was appropriate as a policy promotion area in the developing world, following savage human rights abuses, such as rape being used as a war tool and so on. This year that debate emerged also but it was more responsible where both sides of the argument understood where the other was coming from. There is much more to the report than that.

I decided to put a new structure on the report because the title is as broad as one could possibly have. Any report that is expected to give an overview on human rights in the entire world and the EU policy on human rights would require almost a lifetime thesis. Having looked at previous reports I felt there was not enough structure on them. In order to find the areas in which people were interested, whether in geographical terms, or in thematic terms, a much tighter structure was needed. That was my first challenge.

Perhaps I can give an updated report because I think the report that has been given to members of the committee is the report that went to the plenary. It includes the words, "final report". Approximately a dozen amendments were made to that report. It is important that members would have the report. I shall refer to some of the key changes shortly, in particular, in regard to Iran, which is a positive change.

The report is in two pillars. The first pillar deals with geographical areas in the world — Asia, Africa, the Americas, the Balkans and Russia because we considered it needed its own section due to the intense interest the EU has in Russia. With ten new member states there was an insistence that we had a separate section on Russia. The idea is that if one is interested in a certain area, for example, Sudan, Iraq, Iran, America or the US, one can quickly find the appropriate paragraph. I wanted people to be able to do that rather than having to read the whole report to find a section on north Korea, Iran or whatever country in which one was interested. Most people will read only the areas of the report in which they have an interest.

The second pillar of the report is structured in a similar way under eight different headings. We deal with thematic issues that I believe should dictate EU policy in the area of human rights for the coming 12 months until we get another annual report from Parliament which will, hopefully, influence the direction in which the European Union looks from a human rights points of view. The first area deals with balancing human rights and civil liberties with the fight against terrorism, which as one can imagine within the EU Parliament was a difficult area on which to get consensus as there is a broad spectrum of political opinion and ideology. The second is an area in which the European Union has been failing in regard to the promotion of policy, which is children's rights and the need to link children's rights with development policy coming from the EU. That is an area where I have got some guarantees from the Commission. We hope to see a communication from the Commission before Parliament on the issue of children's rights and the approach it intends to take which is a positive result from this report.

The third pillar is a somewhat gruesome section on the impact of conflict on women and children. It deals with the difficult issues of child soldiers, the use of rape as a war tool and its physical and psychological consequences on communities and impunity around that whole issue. There is a specific section on impunity which is the biggest contributing factor to large scale human rights abuses that continue in the world. Whether warlords, government ministers or local gangland thugs, if they feel there are no consequences for the actions they take they will continue to take them. If the European Union does anything in the field of human rights in the world in an effort to support the UN and other bodies it is the fight against impunity, particularly in the developing world and on the continent of Africa but also in other parts of the world. It does not apply only to Africa.

We have a strong section on the death penalty because this is a consistent theme within the European Union. We have managed, with the exception of Belarus, to create a situation where all the countries within the EU neighbourhood policy — the countries that surround the EU, not including transatlantic neighbours — that is, Morocco, Algeria, the Balkans, Ukraine and so on, to either bring about a situation where Governments have legislated to outlaw the death penalty or the use of the death penalty or have introduced a moratorium on the death penalty. Largely because of insistence by the European Union we have seen a dramatic reduction in the number of people being put to death for crimes in the vicinity of the European Union. That is positive and is recognised in this report. It is recognised also that we have much work to do in regard to other countries with whom we are developing better relations. I will deal with the question of those countries shortly.

I was determined to treat all countries equally in terms of the report's critical eye. There was much concern among some people that I would treat the United States differently because of our special relationship with the US, that I would treat China differently because it is a vital future trading partner for the European Union and that I would hammer smaller, less politically significant countries, from the point of view of trade with the European Union, over their human rights records while taking a softly-softly approach towards more influential countries in the world. I tried not to do that and anyone who reads the sections in the report on China, India, the US and Russia will realise that. That approach ruffled a few feathers in the European Parliament. Some people were uncomfortable with it and tried to amend certain aspects of the report but I tried to resist that, where democratically possible, in the European Parliament.

The other sections relate to trafficking in human beings and human organs, which is a growing international crime. A number of conferences have been held in Ireland on this issue, particularly the trafficking of women and girls into Europe and Ireland for the sex trade. It is a growing problem and we are not responding satisfactorily to it. The level of co-ordination between European countries is not sufficient in this area. The reality is that as the European Union grows and as our borders move east, trafficking for the sex trade is increasing.

With regard to women and girls coming from Moldova, Russia and new and existing member states, we are not adequately dealing with co-ordinating an effort to try to reduce and end trafficking in women and girls. The primary victims are the women and the girls themselves, many of whom come to the European Union on the expectation that they will be working in a bar or disco but who end up either in lap-dancing clubs or brothels. That is a problem the European Union and the international community needs to respond to in a much more effective way.

Section 6 was a particularly difficult area for my party in the European Parliament, which sees itself as a pro-business, enterprise and competition party. However, we achieved a good compromise in section 6 on the thematic issues, which deal with the responsibility of business within the international community towards human rights issues.

I would like to see a voluntary code of conduct developed within the European Union for multinationals coming from the EU to other parts of the world in terms of appropriate practice in the area of human rights. For example, if there are European multinationals working in Uganda or South Africa employing large numbers of people, we should be promoting concepts such as free health checks, free AIDS tests and education programmes on issues like AIDS, sexual health and so on. We got quite a positive response from the business sector to these ideas, which are not new but are new in this report.

If we look at other voluntary models for business within the European Union, for example, the voluntary code of conduct on arms exports, they can have a positive impact on behaviour of companies. Some people wanted us to take a harder line and demanded a legally binding code of conduct for international business. That is the wrong approach because it would annoy business people and multinationals.

We should begin by seeking a voluntary code of conduct to which businesses would sign up because in time that will develop into a binding legal policy area. We can encourage that by adding elements to it such as requiring companies that have been given Government contracts to sign up to a voluntary code of conduct. If the European Union is funding projects in which multinationals are involved, it should expect companies not only to sign up to a voluntary code of conduct but to promote the idea.

Section 7 deals with an issue I have already raised, namely, impunity. It is my priority, as human rights spokesperson for the European People's Party, to hammer away at the issue of impunity for as long as I am a Member of the European Parliament. If the European Union has the power in economic terms that we all know it has, it also has a major influence on many countries. In negotiating trade contracts we must ensure they include human rights clauses and the issue of impunity and attitude towards the International Criminal Court in particular is an area in which the European Union must flex its muscles more effectively.

The biggest hurdle we have to get over in terms of building international respect for the International Criminal Court is to do everything to ensure the US, which is the most influential foreign policy giant in the world, signs up to the International Criminal Court at some stage in the future. Approximately 101 countries have signed the Rome statute, which involves signing up to the International Criminal Court as a means for solving post-conflict situations or significant human rights abuses in countries, but for as long as the United States not only opposes but actively undermines the ICC, we will be at a significant disadvantage. Anyone who knows me will be aware that I am pro-US on most issues and I admire the US as a magnificent example of freedom and opportunity and for all the other positive advantages the US offers but in this area the United States is the biggest obstacle to bringing about a situation where the International Criminal Court can act and be funded efficiently in different parts of the world. I would recognise some progress, however, which is that agreement has been struck within the UN for the International Criminal Court to work in Darfur, in western Sudan. The US has reluctantly allowed that go through, which is a positive step in the right direction.

The final thematic section relates to recent positive policy changes within the European Union. Michael Matheson has been appointed Javier Solana's personal representative on human rights issues. He is a very impressive man whom I have met on a number of occasions. I believe he will add to the human rights armoury within the European Union and raise human rights issues at a foreign policy level in a more effective way than in the past.

A fundamental rights agency is being developed also to monitor human rights abuses and policy on human rights within the European Union. I understand the remit of that agency will be expanded to applicant countries of the European Union to ensure they are consistent with the charter for fundamental rights in the EU. That is also positive progress. Members can read some of the other criticisms and acknowledgements of progress in the report. I was supposed to speak for ten minutes but, in typical politician fashion, I have gone over time. I had intended to outline some of the interesting areas with regard to different countries but members can read that themselves. However, I wish to highlight section 31 on Iran. The first, second, third and tenth draft of this report gave a damning report on Iran and its continuing and consistent disregard for people's human rights. The final draft of this report has seen some changes to that.

The seriousness with which the Iranians seem to take this report was a huge surprise to me. I was lobbied by dozens of ambassadors seeking to improve the paragraphs on their countries. That is their job. However, the Iranian ambassador to the EU met me many times. I told him that if he wanted the section on Iran to be more positive, he would need to give me assurances in writing that positive things were happening. As far as I am concerned, the EU-Iranian dialogue has failed to produce any type of positive change as regards human rights. I wanted assurances in writing from the Iranian Government of some positive development. I received that.

I am sceptical about whether to believe it but the reason I have included positive elements under section 31 is that I got absolute assurances, in writing, about three areas where the Iranians intend to make changes. The first is stoning. A moratorium on stoning has been in place in Iran for about 18 months and I am given an assurance that it will continue. The second matter is the execution of minors. The week this report was published the Iranians announced it would introduce a moratorium on the execution of minors and on the execution of people who committed crimes when they were minors but who were now adults. It often happened that somebody would be imprisoned at the age of 16 years for a crime and then executed in public on their 18th birthday.

There have been two examples. One is a 19 year old who had been sentenced to death when he was 17 years old and was due to be executed. That will not happen now. The other case was a 16 year old who was sentenced to death, along with his father. His father was subsequently hanged in public but we have assurances that the son will not be executed now or when he reaches 18 years of age. Legislation is due to come before the Iranian Parliament to outlaw the death penalty for minors. That is the next step from a moratorium. This type of action must be encouraged rather than ignored, the latter being the hardline view on Iran which I was tempted to take it.

The final area, which is probably the most gruesome, is the introduction of a moratorium on amputations. Recently, a 19 year old was sentenced to have his left leg and his right arm cut off for a third or fourth crime. I am told that this type of barbarity is now not happening in Iran. The reason I have highlighted this is that if there are examples of breaches in these three areas, we intend to make a huge issue of it in the EU-Iranian delegation, of which I am part, the foreign affairs committee and in the human rights sub-committee. We will do everything possible to embarrass Iran by showing that it is not able to keep its word in the assurances.

That is one example of where the report has had an impact in pressurising one of the 70 countries that are dealt with. I hope this will not be just another report that is thrown on a shelf. Approximately a dozen reports come through the European Parliament each week but I hope this report will continue to be relevant until the next human rights report is finished. We got assurances from the Commission that all the questions we raise in this report will receive a detailed written response. I will pass that response to the sub-committee when I receive it.

I compliment Deputy Coveney on producing a comprehensive and detailed report covering a vast canvas. It is true we could spend the week here discussing each of the issues in detail. Is it essentially an audit of where the EU sees human rights standards being applied and where breaches need to be corrected?

Much of what I wish to say constitutes comments rather than questions. There is the issue of enforceability. Deputy Coveney spoke about Iran. I and certain other Members of the House met recently with an opposition academic from Iran. It led me to wonder where exactly the EU stands on these matters. This activist showed us a gruesome file showing the type of mutilations Deputy Coveney mentioned and worse. He did not give me the impression that there was any type of moratorium. I later discovered that I had been meeting with somebody whose organisation was designated a terrorist organisation by the European Union. It made me wonder how he got into Ireland, which is another issue.

Is the European Union speaking from both sides of the mouth, as it were? On the one hand it condemns the abuses but those who complain about the abuses are also being targeted. My colleague, Senator Mooney, and I have had serious concerns about Iran for some time. Some of the recent events in Iran are extremely worrying. Whatever influence the EU can bring to bear on the Iranian authorities should be utilised.

On the issue of impunity, I welcome Deputy Coveney's strong commitment to the recognition of the International Criminal Court. When I was in Uganda last year I met with some of the young people who had been taken hostage by the Lord's Resistance Army. I was traumatised from just listening to what these 12 to 15 year old boys and girls had to endure from Kony and his followers. I am not sure how we, as members of the European Union, can advance human rights in places such as Uganda and Darfur, where there is scant recognition of the standards we would regard as minimal.

I am pleased with the line taken by Deputy Coveney to China, which is potentially a strong trading partner but has an appalling human rights record. I agree we cannot stand back from that and take a softly, softly approach. I met with its human rights commission last year when I was in China. One would think they were upholding the very highest standards of human rights anywhere in the world. In fact, I came home with some magazines produced by the Human Rights Commission of China, which would suggest that places such as the United Kingdom and the United States were ferocious abusers of human rights. To a certain extent, they certainly do that.

The trafficking of minors is a major issue.

I must intervene to advise the sub-committee of a vote in the Dáil to which Deputies must respond.

Can we cancel each other out? Is that allowed or do we need to go and vote?

In the light of recent happenings, I need to go and vote anyway.

We will suspend the sitting until such time as Deputies return after the vote, which will presumably be in six or seven minutes.

Thank you, Chairman.

Sitting suspended at 12.21 p.m and resumed at 12.30 p.m.

I interrupted Deputy Carey in midstream. I am not sure if he was about to conclude.

There are many issues about which one could talk. Recognition of the International Criminal Court is a very important issue, particularly when talking about bringing the perpetrators of great injustice to trial. The issue of suicide bombers in Israel was raised. There is another side to that and I suspect it was mentioned in regard to the abuses perpetrated against the Palestinians. There is a long catalogue.

The Chairman and I met a group from Colombia some time ago and if talking about abuses against indigenous peoples, there is no shortage of examples from that part of the world. Ecuador and the regime there was mentioned. There are a number of Irish people in prison in Quito who are being held in dubious circumstances. The conditions of their incarceration are far from satisfactory and it is very difficult to get information of value and to try to persuade the regime to allow appeals or retrials. They are some of the issues which struck me.

The final issue is Turkey. We read everywhere that it is making great strides. However, it seems to lapse and to go back to its old ways. I am not suggesting for one minute that the issues along its border with Iraq are straightforward but the international community should not allow it to drift towards abuses against the Kurdish minorities located along its border.

As to whether this is an audit of human rights standards across the world, I suppose there is an element of that. When starting out on this report, I felt the geographical section would probably end up being a list of countries and continents — a little bit like Amnesty International's annual report. As it turned out, the geographical areas and the treatment of individual countries in the report became much more of a hot topic of debate than the thematic issues which were more political and policy driven because individual countries took offence. To get a reaction, I deliberately published the first draft of this report, and, by God, I got one.

I knew nothing of what was happening in Morocco, Algeria and Western Sahara before this report began. However, given the discussion, compromise and haggling to include an acceptable paragraph on that area in this report, it became an education for me but, much more importantly, because that is largely irrelevant, it forced debate in the European Parliament, the foreign affairs committee and, in particular, in the human rights subcommittee, on these issues and on what the European Union was doing about them, if anything.

There are at least a dozen examples of where there was much discussion, haggling and debate between the different parties and groups in the European Parliament. There is a paragraph in the report on the treatment of the Jammu and Kashmir region, for example, and it was a hot topic of debate from the Indian side. There is a "Friends of India" group within the European Parliament and Pakistan has similar support groups within the European Parliament. We eventually thrashed out an acceptable compromise. It was a matter of discussing reports on Kashmir, rehashing them, examining the recommendations to see if they had been implemented and, if not, why not. The process of putting together the report was a rattling of the cage, so to speak, with very delicate political issues which are big human rights issues that are often ignored because of political sensitivities. One of the positive by-products of the report is that I have become known in the European Parliament for it. People recognise me because they take strong positions on various issues.

China was similar. Suddenly we got the debate going again on whether the arms embargo on China should be lifted. My view is that we should not lift it because the country is not making satisfactory progress on human rights. Even though I strongly support the positive development in regard to increased dialogue, economic development and trade between the European Union and China, I do not forget why the embargo was imposed in the first instance. There has not been the necessary change in attitude towards human rights in China. Lifting the embargo would send out all the wrong messages.

On the question of opposition groups in Iran, I have had the same experience whereby half way through a discussion I realised I was speaking to someone who was on a supposed list of terrorist organisations. My understanding is that the Iranian Mujahadin are on a list of terrorist organisations. There is an umbrella group called the Iranian Opposition Alliance, which includes four or five groups. That umbrella group is not considered a terrorist organisation. I met it on a number of occasions. While there have been examples of inhumane and outrageous treatment of people in Iran, since the supposed assurances on moratoriums have been put in place, I am not aware of any examples of amputations, executions or stoning of minors, despite the fact that this practice is covered in law. However, my understanding is that the moratorium is holding. I have made it clear to organisations like Amnesty International that if they have any evidence to the contrary they should contact me straight away and we will raise hell about it.

We did not examine Turkey in the report because we have not examined any of the applicant countries. Individual reports have been drawn up on Croatia, Turkey, Bulgaria and Romania. If I were to start examining them again, we would re-open the debate on Turkey and the report would be dominated by this aspect. Groups would have been voting either for or against the report on the basis of what I said about Turkey. I did not want that debate to take place again because so many other issues need to be highlighted. Turkey will remain a political hot potato which will be debated every two or three weeks in the European Parliament, because it is on our doorstep and it does not need the spotlight shone on it like the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda. This was an opportunity to shine a light on some of the darkest corners of the world from a human rights point of view.

The treatment of minorities in China remains appalling. For example, Falun Gong has a strong representation in Ireland and in the European Union. It is horrific to see some of the pictures of the treatment of people who have been members of that organisation.

I endorse everything my colleague has said. I welcome the report and I applaud Deputy Coveney's initiative. I do not mean this as a criticism, but while I am not a member of the European Parliament, I was a member of the Council of Europe for two years, and if one were to strip away the international dimension to the report, much of what is in it has already been duplicated within the Council of Europe. The Deputy makes the point in the context of the establishment of the agency proposed by the Council, that it should not overlap. In light of the Warsaw Summit statement, which appears to have reinforced the role of the Council of Europe as the primary human rights body within Europe, and bearing in mind the statement of the president of the assembly, Mr. Terry Davis, when he asked bluntly what is the Council of Europe for, and this is the response he got, are we talking about an ongoing turf war between the European Parliament and its directed mandate and the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe? Does Deputy Coveney see any conflict in terms of the important and valuable work he is doing in the sense that he is perhaps operating in a vacuum? I do not mean the Deputy personally; I mean the human rights organisations.

I applaud the Deputy's unambiguous commitment in regard to the lifting of sanctions in China. I fully agree with him, despite the fact that a Government statement issued some months ago would have a contrary view. This may explain the big business dimension there is to dialogue with China as a burgeoning economy and consumer society. The Minister, Deputy Ahern commented that because Ireland did not see it as a strategic national interest, it was neutral on the question of the embargo, and if it was to be lifted, we would not oppose it.

I also applaud the Deputy's comments on the Council's change of strategy on the lifting of sanctions on Cuba. I and other parliamentarians receive very positive up-beat statements from the Charge d'Affairs in Ireland about wrongs committed against the Cuban people by the Americans. The most recent one related to an extradition issue. However, they never appear to see the mote in their own eye. I am pleased the Deputy included it, because it is a statement of fact. I am in favour of continuing dialogue rather than isolation.

The Deputy referred to the US ignoring the international criminal court, which is a very sad development. The court's credibility will be in constant question until the US complies. He should go to see the film "The Interpreter" which is currently running — I am not plugging Nicole Kidman or Sean Penn. It is essentially about recognition by the US. The storyline is very pro-the United Nations and, for the first time, a feature film producer was allowed access into the UN building. They are not sets; it is the actual UN. It is on an epic scale which is magnificent. The central core of the film is that the storyline develops to the point where the United States agrees in the UN General Assembly to the extradition of an African leader to be tried by the international criminal court. There is a happy ending in the movie, which I wish were true in regard to the US.

I welcome the report. I applaud Deputy Coveney for what he is doing and I wish him continued success.

I agree with the Senator that there is a real danger that two bodies may be doing similar work. The European Parliament consists of people who are directly elected by 25 member states within the European Union. The Council of Europe is a much larger body and encompasses other countries outside the European Union. However, the European Union, as a trading bloc that negotiates with individual countries, has growing political clout internationally. As can be seen from its constitution, its value system plays a strong part in what it is about, the promotion of human rights and democracy and respect for minorities, etc. I am convinced that if we are to be a growing player on the international stage, one area in which we can make a significant difference is that of human rights. The European Parliament must continue to work towards this. Whether the Council of Europe is doing the same work, it remains an area we need to consider.

I have no interest in a turf war. My interest lies in trying to get results in countries that desperately need them. I may be wrong but I believe the European Union's capacity to influence is far greater than that of the Council of Europe. If, for example, Javier Solana and Michael Matthiessen went to Peter Mandelson and said that when negotiating trade agreements with country "X", we needed to insist on the inclusion of a strong human rights clause as a prerequisite for a healthy trading relationship, they would be listened to. The Council of Europe is somewhat less focused politically than the European Union.

Having said that, we should sit back and try to establish the purpose of this report. What does it try to achieve? Perhaps, it deals with too many issues and the message is dissipated. Perhaps we should focus on three priority areas for the next 12 months. We are discussing within the sub-committee how we can make the report more focused and a critique of the performance of the European Union on human rights issues, rather than being an overview of what is happening in the world.

I thank members for their comments. I strongly support developing a relationship with China and feel strongly about the issue. I totally reject the attitude that if something does not affect Ireland, the European Union should be let do what it wants. That is an insular selfish attitude. Ireland is bigger than that. We have shown across the world that Irish people take an interest, whether in the United Nations, the NGO community or through Irish peacekeepers serving abroad. Irish people are interested in human rights issues, whether they affect Cork, Kilkenny or Dublin. They do not ask whether it affects them as they recognise a wrong. They want to see the European Union and Ireland playing a part in putting matters right.

I am the first Irish MEP to serve on the foreign affairs committee of the European Parliament and the first Irish co-ordinator on the human rights sub-committee. We should try to link up more often. If there are issues this committee wants raised in the European Parliament, it should use me to do so. I am non-political on this issue. Likewise, if there are European issues on which I believe Ireland takes a flawed stance, I can perhaps feed this information to the committee and it can question the Minister or try to get a debate going.

I thank Deputy Coveney for his report and responses to our questions. It is a pity we do not have more time because it is a substantive report. We will reflect on and respond to his request that we keep in more regular contact with him and use his position to benefit the work of this committee. With regard to a follow-up, an annual report at European Parliament level, will another member be chosen to compile next year's report or will Deputy Coveney remain in position? How is continuity maintained?

A member from a different political grouping produces the report each year. Last year the Social Democrats were responsible for it and this year it is us, the Christian Democrats. The previous year it was the Liberals and the year before that it was the Socialists. There is an idea abroad that socialists are more interested in human rights than those in the centre or on the right of centre. I hope this report shows that to be nonsense. It may be the Liberals which produce the report next year but I will be a shadow rapporteur.

Will Deputy Coveney be in a position to keep the work which is the subject of this report to the forefront?

Absolutely. The human rights sub-committee meets twice a month, that is, the sub-committee of the foreign affairs committee of the European Parliament. We invite guest speakers and NGOs to make presentations and discuss elements of this report to check whether they are being followed up, etc. The report tries to influence the direction the sub-committee will take from a human rights perspective.

We thank Deputy Coveney for being with us. We will certainly keep in contact with him.

Sitting suspended at 1.57 p.m. and resumed at 1.58 p.m.
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