JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sub-Committee on Human Rights) debate -
Thursday, 16 Jun 2005

Irish Commission for Prisoners Overseas: Presentation.

Chairman

I welcome Gráinne Prior, co-ordinator of the Irish Commission for Prisoners Overseas, which is based in Maynooth, Fr. Gerry McFlynn director of the commission's London office and Fr. Alan Hilliard, director of the Irish Episcopal Commission for Emigrants. The committee has dealt with Fr. Hilliard's office on the subject of Irish people in the United States and I wish to congratulate him on that particular work.

The subject to be discussed at this meeting is Irish prisoners overseas, which was highlighted by members in the committee's work programme as an issue to be taken on board during the current year. We are, therefore, delighted to hear submissions on the matter.

I must point out that while the members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. I am not sure how many of the witnesses want to contribute but if a number could present over the next ten to 20 minutes, members will have questions afterwards.

Fr. Alan Hilliard

I will begin and hand over to Ms Prior and Fr. McFlynn to contribute before I then conclude. I bring the thanks of Irish bishops — particularly those of Bishop Seamus Hegarty, chair of the commission — for the invitation to come before the committee.

The Irish Episcopal Commission for Emigrants was set up in 1957. In looking after emigrants, we identified specific groups within the emigrant community which had particular needs. One of these was that comprised of prisoners. In 1985, the Irish Commission for Prisoners was set up because of the injustices being visited on Irish people in the UK. Since its establishment, the experience and knowledge built up has been applied to many jurisdictions across the world. It is important to note that our commitment to families of prisoners has grown.

No other service of this nature is available in Ireland. Community welfare officers and others are always delighted to avail of the services we offer in terms of appealing on behalf of people. We are proud to be associated with prisoners. Families are inspirational in the support, love and care they give to loved ones who are incarcerated. Some of the prisoners are also inspiring people.

We address the committee today on an issue of justice. Our definition of justice is to give every person his or her due. Prisoners abroad receive little representation and their plight is not a popular matter within the media. The commission also has an interest in reducing crime levels. If the links between prisoners and their families are kept alive and if they are given support by society, the risk of recidivism decreases. We pay tribute to those in counselling services who carry out great work with prisoners and who understand their plight.

We believe that we provide a value added service. We are aware that, in certain jurisdictions, Government officials are limited in terms of the help and support they can provide. We support prisoners without making judgments on their cases and we provide support to their families, which can often be extremely isolated. I invite Ms Prior and Fr. McFlynn to speak and work through the themes that are the subject of this debate.

Ms Gráinne Prior

I will briefly list the main themes we plan to address. The provisions of the European Convention on Human Rights and the European prison rules frame the context of this presentation. We will refer to communications and aids that assist communication for prisoners and families. We will also consider: the issue of a prisoner's allowance; culturally sensitive practices, particularly in the UK; supervisory release at times of serious illness, which is covered by European prison rule 49.2; going to trial; legal aid; translation; and supervision of prisoners on licence, particularly in the UK. Other issues that will be examined include: deportation, particularly in the UK and US; repatriation; education, which is covered by European prison rule 6.5; and the necessity for future research. Members familiar with prisoners and issues relating to them will know that repatriation is one of the major issues facing prisoners and their families.

One of the main functions of the Irish Commission for Prisoners Overseas is to assist prisoners and their families in keeping the lines of communication open. The first few days after a person is arrested can be harrowing. A case came into our office this week involving a woman who had been left for three or four days without any information about her partner or his whereabouts and who was very distressed. In the initial stages, it is necessary to examine the procedures in place and ensure that they are adhered to. Consular staff obviously have a major role to play in that regard.

It is then necessary to examine ways of ensuring that communication is made easy for prisoners and their families. The commission has had several cases in recent years where prisoners spent up to two years on remand in France and were not allowed to make telephone calls at any stage during that period. Most of these prisoners were found not guilty when their cases eventually went to trial. Regardless, however, of whether a person is innocent or guilty, he or she is presumed innocent while on remand. For prisoners who have been sentenced, simply being able to remain in contact with their families is life saving. The commission is seeking ways to keep this going.

If one looks at most prisoners, it would be similar to the cohort here in terms of their coming from families that are struggling. If one looks at someone in prison overseas, one looks for ways to support families with funding and trying to give them allowances on which to live. We recommend trying to ease prisoners' families financial concerns. We would do the same in terms of families that are obliged to travel abroad to make prison visits. There is a discretionary payment for prisoners' families but it only applies to people on social welfare. We recommend widening eligibility for the payment and allowing more discretion to award it to those who are not on social welfare. Fr. Gerry McFlynn will now speak on culturally sensitive practices.

Fr. Gerry McFlynn

We estimate that there are approximately 1,200 Irish prisoners in custody worldwide, with the majority imprisoned in the UK. Figures vary considerably. The Home Office and the English prison service say there are approximately 650 Irish prisoners in UK prisons but we estimate, as a result of our work over a period of years, that the figure is closer to 900. The majority of Irish prisoners in custody in England and Wales live lives of quiet desperation. They have a particularly difficult time because they find themselves in an alien environment and, in many cases, are cut off from their families and loved ones. Irish prisoners, particularly Travellers, also face considerable discrimination.

Members of the Traveller community are deliberately discriminated against, largely because they are regarded as untrustworthy. This means they are not given jobs in the prison wings or are not allowed to work in canteens for hygiene reasons. They are also discriminated against in the courts, where they are almost invariably refused bail. It varies considerably from prison to prison. Irish inmates are used to putting up with a certain amount of verbal abuse such as being called "Paddy" and "Mick". There have been cases in recent years where some Irish inmates have been also subjected to physical abuse. This happened not because they were singled out but because there were cases of physical abuse of inmates in certain prisons, mostly in the London area.

Part of the problem results from the training of prison officers, which underpins many of the difficulties we are dealing with here in terms of culturally sensitive practices. Irish inmates are not perceived as constituting a separate ethnic group. They are white and speak English. Any training that goes into cultural awareness training for prison officers relates to examining the cultural backgrounds of black and Asian prisoners. A way of dealing with this would be for the Department of Foreign Affairs to possibly use its influence and good offices with the Home Office and, in particular, the UK prison service to ensure that Irish nationals are considered to represent a separate ethnic group and are treated accordingly. This would go a long way towards alleviating many of the difficulties experienced by Irish prisoners.

Over a period of years, we have called and highlighted the need for training in cultural awareness to be an integral part of the training of prison officers. However, our pleas have fallen on deaf ears for the most part. If this is the case, it might be in order to ensure that Irish prisoners are regarded as constituting a separate ethnic group and are then accorded the same treatment and privileges as others in that particular category.

Ms Prior

We will move on because I am conscious of the time. I will now address supervisory release at times of serious illness, which is covered by European prison rule 49.2. English prisoners in Irish prisons are allowed to return to the UK to visit people who are seriously ill but Irish prisoners in UK prisons have never been allowed to visit seriously ill people in Ireland.

Going to trial is an important issue for everyone but it is particularly important for people in the non-English speaking world. In these cases, there is a need for translation services. As there are no international agreements with good standards, translation can be hit and miss in nature. People have told us that they do not really know what is happening or that only some of the proceedings were translated. We see a need for action on translation services.

There is also a need for action on finding good lawyers for prisoners. We wonder if the consular authorities could be more proactive in this regard. I know they must be careful but we wonder if they could be used for the provision of properly qualified interpreters and competent legal representation. Our experience shows that once a European person is imprisoned in some countries, he or she is often regarded as a gold mine. The person's family is thousands of miles away and does not know what is happening. This is an enormous problem, on which we would like to see some movement. Even in the English-speaking world, one is looking at huge fees for legal representation and lack of access to free legal aid in many countries. We wonder if the Department of Foreign Affairs or consular authorities could examine this issue and put some weight on this.

The next area is the supervision of prisoners on licence. Fr. McFlynn might like to address this matter.

Fr. McFlynn

Prisoners released on licence in the UK must remain in that jurisdiction under the terms of their licence order until it expires. One of the problems associated with this is that of life licences. People who are released on life licences may be never able to return to Ireland. One can imagine how gravely disruptive this can prove for the prisoners and their families. We recommend that the Department of Foreign Affairs engage with the probation service authorities here and in the UK to highlight this problem and examine ways of advancing the issue at Council of Europe or bilateral level.

Ms Prior

The next issue is deportation. As we are all aware, this is a worldwide movement. We find that, at the end of prison sentences, people are deported. This happens everywhere but particularly in the UK. Even if persons in the US have good links there, they are returned with their entire families but with few if any contacts in Ireland. This occurs more and more in the UK. Our recommendation is that appropriate action be taken to ensure that Irish nationals are not deported without just cause, that they are given every reasonable chances to appeal and that facilities be made available to people who return here homeless. The next issue is repatriation. Fr. McFlynn has experience of this matter in respect of the UK.

Fr. McFlynn

The length of time it takes an Irish inmate to be repatriated is little short of disgraceful. We are discussing two legal jurisdictions in which the same language is spoken and which have approximately the same cultural and legal traditions. However, it takes between three and three and a half years to process a straightforward repatriation application. This is, for many reasons, unacceptable, not least due to the stress and upset it causes inmates but also because of its disruption of family life. I know a number of people who have been waiting over three years for repatriation. The process has had serious effects on their health and, in many cases, led to the break-up of family relationships. We recommend that something be done to speed up the process. The situation is so bad that I tell anyone serving a sentence of under five years that it is not worth his or her while trying to apply for repatriation.

This situation compares very unfavourably with the repatriation of British subjects abroad. We have conferred with our sister society in Britain and learned that it takes between 12 to 18 months for any British subject to be repatriated from any part of the world. We would be grateful for anything the Department of Foreign Affairs could do to speed up the process. I do not wish to labour the point but I cannot stress it strongly enough. This is a major problem.

Ms Prior

Most Irish prisoners are incarcerated in the English-speaking countries, noticeably the UK or the US. For those who find themselves in prison in central or South American countries or in Thailand, for example, it is difficult because these states have not signed up to the convention. Some of the members present have met Irish people imprisoned in such circumstances. It is difficult for the individuals involved and for their families. We again recommend that the Department consider establishing bilateral treaties or something wider because there is a great need.

Fr. McFlynn

This upsets quite a number of ordinary decent criminals who had applied for repatriation. Many so-called political prisoners were practically repatriated overnight under the Good Friday Agreement. More than one Irish inmate told me that they should have joined the IRA, in which case they would have been repatriated immediately. The process can be accelerated if there is a will. We call on the Department to do whatever it can in this regard.

Ms Prior

The conventions speak glowingly of the need to ensure adequate provision for education and that people are not penalised if they choose the educational route rather than the working route. Our experience is that there is not much education available in many cases. Much work has been done regarding educational courses that change one's behaviour rather than those that examine the whole person or development.

Fr. Hilliard

I reiterate our thanks to the committee for allowing us to come before it. The Irish Commission for Prisoners Overseas celebrates its 20th anniversary this year and we will inform the committee of our celebrations as time passes. Prisoners in certain jurisdictions have some rights that can guide us but those who are incarcerated for migration violations have absolutely no rights. This is a worldwide concern. Ireland is respected in Europe and throughout the world as a nation that represents people's rights and it should bring attention to this issue.

I thank Fr. McFlynn and his team in London and Ms Prior in the Dublin office for their work. What we do on the ground is to help families in chaos to attend trials in order that judges can see people have somewhere to go when they are released. Attending a trial is more significant than visiting in prison. As members are aware, the justice system sometimes looks for favours for a person and we assist it in that regard.

As Ireland's population grows, there is a notion of spending to save. The more bilateral agreements we have, the better because they will serve both countries well. All of the issues raised would have been given due and proper consideration if the Government had maintained its commitment under the Programme for Prosperity and Fairness and undertook research to identify the number of Irish prisoners abroad and the need to provide services to them and their families. This commitment was made in 2000 but we do not as yet know whether anything has been done or if something will be implemented. Money for this purpose has been set aside and we want the committee to know that there would be an avenue to explore these issues if the commitment were fulfilled.

Chairman

I thank the visitors for their presentations, which have been exceptionally interesting. They raised nine or ten valid points that will be of concern to the committee.

Deputy Carey

I must leave at 12.30 p.m., which I informally mentioned to the delegation as I did not wish to slight it. I will be concise. I reiterate everything the delegation has said regarding repatriation. On a personal level, I thank the delegation's members for the work they have done in a number of cases with which I have had some involvement.

Two areas of repatriation are in particular need of attention, one of which is the repatriation of prisoners between the United Kingdom and Ireland. Layers of bureaucracy on both sides make it extraordinarily difficult for prisoners to determine whether their cases are being examined at all. For months on end, files seem to be left unattended by either side or one side will blame the other for delays. In the meantime, prisoners become more desperate. Some of them are quite suicidal. There is not enough support in UK prisons to help prisoners through this trauma.

I echo the delegation's comments on streamlining the repatriation service. Even if someone received a negative answer, it would be an improvement on being strung out — if I can be forgiven for using the term — with excuses such as that the file has not reached an office or someone wrote on several occasions but did not receive a reply.

On the issue of repatriation of prisoners from Central America and South America, the Government ought to engage in bilateral agreements with countries such as Ecuador. There are a number of Irish prisoners there and I know of some who are extremely vulnerable. The regimes in the prisons in which they are being held are volatile because no one knows who is likely to determine policy within those institutions. Entitlement to telephones, visits and reading material is patchy. For example, sometimes the use of mobile phones is allowed, either formally or informally, whereas at other times one cannot send letters directly to the prisoners. That is an area in respect of which the Government ought to take action.

All prisoners live lives of quiet desperation but, on a human rights basis, that is not good enough. We ought to do whatever we can and, as legislators, it is our job to do something more than sound off on this matter. I thank the various NGOs and our consular service in SouthAmerica. It does a very good job with limited resources.

Last night I met someone who spent a number of years as head chaplain to the Prison Service and we discussed the profile of the new emigrants. People discharged from prisons in Ireland seem to automatically head for the boat, with nothing other than the clothes on their back and very little, if any, money in their possession. There is no liaison with the Prison Service in terms of the discharge of prisoners and the Irish Commission for Prisoners Overseas seems to be the only organisation doing anything about this.

Senator Mooney and others will be aware of the new emigrant profile and where such people tend to end up. We no longer highly qualified, educated emigrants. Instead they are highly dependent and have lifestyle issues that cause difficulty. It is incumbent on us as parliamentarians, and on me because I am associated with the Government, to ensure that a regime is put in place so they do not fall through the cracks in the next jurisdiction to which they travel. In many cases, such people end up in prison when they travel to other countries. I thank the delegation for coming before us. On a personal level, I thank it for the work it has been doing.

Chairman

I thank Deputy Carey for his comprehensive commentary on the overall situation.

Senator Finucane

Although I know very little about this subject, I found the presentation most interesting. Much of the recent focus on overseas prisoners has been on the Columbia three. How many prisoners are in central and South America? I anticipate extreme difficulties in repatriation from countries with which we do not have bilateral agreements. I am surprised by the long repatriation process between Britain and Ireland, particularly in light of the closeness between the countries.

I ask the Irish Commission for Prisoners Overseas, which has a hardship fund and a meagre budget, if it receives any assistance or subvention from the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform or Foreign Affairs? As I come from west Limerick, which includes Rathkeale within its boundaries, I am aware of people moving to other countries for long parts of the year. England and Germany are favourite destinations. I am well aware of the publicity surrounding Cottenham, England, and places of that nature, where whole areas have been taken over, and of the difficulties Travellers may experience in prisons.

The delegation is coming from a difficult base. Let us consider the new EU countries. Yesterday, the Minister informed me that 88,000 people have come here since countries such as Poland and Latvia became members of the EU. Practically all of them have found jobs and yet the delegation states that 18,500 people have emigrated. These people come from a vulnerable base, with issues of homelessness, drug and alcohol addiction and undiagnosed mental disorders. They start off with acute disadvantages when they go to England.

The delegation commented that prisoners sought permission to visit seriously ill family members in Ireland and it was difficult for them to get supervised releases. Would the position be the same if a person, such as a next of kin or close relative, had died? Would sympathetic release be granted in that situation? I would be concerned if it were not.

The delegation commented on free legal aid, which is often used in this country. Is it saying that insufficient resources are provided for free legal aid? Does this refer to resources coming from the Irish side or resources within the English system? The submission is most interesting and the people with whom the delegation works tend to be neglected and forgotten.

Chairman

It has been pointed out to me that there is another human rights meeting taking place shortly. Members may wish to attend this so I will now take questions from Senator Mooney and Deputy Gregory.

Senator Mooney

I welcome the delegation and reiterate what Deputy Carey said. Those of us who work in this area are familiar with the work of the organisations represented here. These organisations did excellent work during 20 years when it was not the most popular thing to do. They identified with the vulnerable and the disadvantaged and I compliment the delegation on this. The commission's vibrancy and strength is a testimony to its efforts and the efforts of the current members' predecessors, many of whom I worked with through the years as an emigrant.

The delegation is correct on the point made in its submission about the profile of the 18,500 people who have emigrated. As Deputy Carey said, from a recent visit to the US it is clear that the greatest problems facing emigrant centres in that jurisdiction are social problems and the social baggage these people bring with them. These people's status is also undocumented. The social problems to which I refer include drug problems, separated families and personal relationships that have failed. These individuals are at their most vulnerable.

Would the delegation agree that the unit dealing with emigrants abroad, established as a direct result of the recommendations of the task force on emigrants, could take a more proactive role in the funding of, for example, the emigrant advice agency?

In respect of the Irish Episcopal Commission for Emigrants, perhaps there should be a more proactive approach, based on partnership, in light of the new trend that has manifested itself over the last few years. Should more resources be spent on advice and outreach workers? Despite the financing by the Department of Foreign Affairs, through the unit dealing with emigrants abroad, of those two organisations, I get the impression that it is making a minimal impact. I say that as an observation rather than a criticism.

This may be a matter of resources as much as anything else. I know the people working at the coalface in these organisation and they are all very committed. Does the delegation have a comment on this matter? The matter of undocumented emigrants in the US is allied to this, although it is somewhat separate. Many of those travelling to the US illegally could enter legally if they received the proper advice. Despite the restrictive nature of entry to the US since 11 September 2001, there are various means to do so legally. Perhaps many of the people concerned do not want to reach out because they left as a knee-jerk reaction to a domestic dispute but this is a real problem. Ultimately, as the delegation pointed out, some ended up in the prison system.

The delegation touched on violations which I presume was meant in a worldwide context, not just that of the United States. I am familiar only with what happens in the United States. This committee and the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs have taken up some high profile cases in the past 12 months which we have discussed with the US ambassador. As one high ranking US official stated to us last week: "We are on a war footing". That is the security environment in which the United States operates. When one hears such language from high ranking US officials in the context of immigrants whom they now view as posing a terrorist threat, the fact that they will automatically spend six weeks in the US prison system as criminals before being deported is a real cause for concern.

I am not sure what the answer is but my earlier question was related specifically to advice given here at home and whether there should be a greater proactive involvement. In the context of discrimination against the Irish in the United Kingdom, I spent seven years in London prior to and at the beginning of the IRA bombing campaign. Life was extremely difficult in Britain for the Irish who had to keep their heads down because all Irish people were identified as IRA supporters. However, I did not experience great discrimination, apart from the usual banter between English and Irish people. Does the delegation agree there is a need for education as much of this is based on ignorance and prejudice?

Senator Finucane touched on the unique closeness of the relationship between Britain and Ireland. Legally, the United Kingdom does not view Ireland as a foreign country for a wide variety of activities, the most popular of which is travel between Britain and Ireland, which transcends the Schengen agreement. Although it is not put as starkly in our legislation, there is a reciprocal arrangement. Does the anti-discrimination legislation in the United Kingdom fall within this? Where there is evidence of discrimination against Irish prisoners because of their ethnic background, can the prison officials concerned or their managers be taken to court and face the full rigours of the law? The delegation is probably aware of the most recent high profile case in the United Kingdom of an ambulance employee who took a case because she was harassed by her employers and workmates simply because she was Irish. She was brave and courageous to see the case through and won.

Rather than shouting at the system and cursing in the dark, does the delegation have any views on whether its own organisations, with the help of the Department of Foreign Affairs, could take up such cases of discrimination against Irish prisoners in UK jails and stamp it out once and for all? Such discrimination is unacceptable in this day and age, considering the strong and friendly relationship at State level between Britain and Ireland. I am amazed that those released on a life licence may never return to live in Ireland again. My opinion is that all of recommendations made under the various headings could be adopted by the committee, passed on and actively pursued and supported by it through the Department of Foreign Affairs.

Deputy Gregory

I welcome the delegation and compliment it on its clear presentation. I agree with the last point made by Senator Mooney. There is a range of issues arising from the presentation that the sub-committee could usefully pursue, including the issue of ethnic group status for Irish prisoners in Britain, advice on legal representation abroad and even the issue of identifying the number of Irish prisoners abroad. The requests are clear, specific and reasonable and it is hoped we will pursue all of them.

Chairman

I hesitate to interrupt but I wish to inform Deputies Gregory and Davern that a vote has been called in the Dáil and if they both make their submissions within the next few minutes, it might allow them time to go to the Chamber.

Deputy Gregory

I will be brief. I simply want to refer to my experience of the repatriation issue, the one issue on which prisoners, particularly from Britain, have written to me. I have sought to speed up the three and a half year process by raising Dáil questions on their behalf, not always successfully. Surely that length of time between two English speaking countries can only be explained by a deliberate policy within the Department. Others referred to layers of bureaucracy but I would have thought layers of bureaucracy within the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform could not logically explain how it takes three and a half years to process an application to repatriate an Irish national serving a sentence in a British prison.

I do not want to embarrass members of the delegation by asking the question directly but I am interested in their experience. Is it a bureaucratic problem or a deliberate policy because the Department and the prison system have so many problems with which to cope that they do not want any more thrust on them? Is that the attitude? That is what has been suggested by the prisoners writing to me. We need to know what the cause is if we are to tackle the problem. It is hoped the sub-committee will give it priority because the position is not justifiable. It cannot be interpreted in any way other than a deliberate policy.

Deputy Davern

I apologise for my late arrival. I had to attend another meeting.

How many prisoners in England are involved and what age are they? I hate to use the term "middle-aged" because there is an assumption we will all reach 100 but there are quite a few older prisoners who are perhaps 50 years of age and possibly repeat offenders having been convicted for drunkenness or causing disruption. What is the average sentence of those involved? The delegation mentioned that the process takes three and a half years to complete. I presume we are discussing prisoners serving long sentences.

For what specific reason is the Traveller community not being treated correctly? Is it because of its culture or lack of education that it is treated differently?

Chairman

If Deputy Davern needs to leave, he can be excused.

The delegation has heard a wide range of comments and questions. Senator Mooney hit the nail on the head as most the issues raised could be dealt with in a much more proactive way by the Department of Foreign Affairs. We can take up individual issues with the Department or perhaps the sub-committee could discuss the possibility of inviting the Minister or Minister of State to discuss the sensible proposals made by the delegation. There is also the issue of repatriation in which the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is involved. Members of the delegation might give us the benefit of their comments.

Fr. Hilliard

Senator Finucane raised the question of funding. We are funded primarily by the Irish Bishops Conference and receive grants from various agencies. Last year we received €30,000 from the Department of Foreign Affairs. We also receive funding from the Department of Social and Family Affairs. It came to our rescue many years ago and last year gave us €32,000. We assist it in disseminating information on the rights and entitlements of prisoners. We received €3,000 from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform which allows us to publish a newsletter which is circulated four times annually to every prisoner overseas. It is a wonderful communication and a lifeline for prisoners as sometimes it is the only correspondence they receive. It also assists in our pen-friend scheme. We operate, therefore, on the basis of money provided by the Episcopal Conference and the various grants provided. We also receive funding from other agencies but the budget is minimal. It is a question of being a church organisation working with loaves and fishes.

Senator Finucane

What is the budget for the hardship fund?

Fr. Hilliard

The hardship fund was given to us through the Mercy Order and the St. Stephen's Green Trust. Ms Prior will expand on the amounts involved and the types of request submitted.

Ms Prior

The hardship fund was only set up a few years ago when we received two generous grants. The amount in the fund stands at €15,000. We only use the fund when circumstances are almost desperate. For example, in Central or South America prisoners must pay for food supplements, toiletries and so on. We examine individual circumstances to ascertain if prisoners are being supported by their families. If they are not or if their families are not well off, we assist them through the fund. We also give money to prisoners in Europe. Fr. McFlynn operates a fund in the United Kingdom. However, we have to be sparing with the money because the number of prisoners means we cannot assist everybody. However, it is a very useful fund to have available.

Fr. Hilliard

A point to note is that if prisoners are released in a Third World country, it is often the case that there is no money available to deport them. They are then stranded and if their families are poor or they have no family, they have no way of getting back to Ireland. The hardship fund is used to assist such persons. Their families often pay back every penny at a later date. The fund is not abused in any way. Families are so delighted to benefit from this service that they come to us with envelopes of money to replenish the fund.

Chairman

If the hardship fund was not in place and the group was not operating, there would be a huge gap in providing services for prisoners overseas. There is no other body pursuing the issues in such fine detail.

Fr. Hilliard

An Irish person who arrives in Dublin Airport, having spent 15 years in an American prison, will have no one to turn to except the Irish Commission for Prisoners Overseas.

Chairman

I ask the commission to address the issue of Travellers raised by Senator Finucane and Deputy Davern.

Fr. McFlynn

It is a cultural issue. Members of the Traveller community are discriminated against because they are perceived to be different. Their lifestyle does not fit in with that of others and it is not only Irish Travellers who are discriminated against. We have also found that English Travellers suffer discrimination. In fact, the Traveller community per se is discriminated against because of its lifestyle and the fact its members are seen to be different.

Many Travellers also have literacy problems which can cause major difficulties in prison. I am not sure about the prison system in Ireland but in the United Kingdom the system is entirely paper-based. If a person cannot read or write, he or she is at a considerable disadvantage. For example, if a prisoner wants to see the chaplain or a probation officer or move to another landing, he or she must submit an application or request in writing. Therefore, Travellers who have literacy problems find themselves in a very difficult position.

Essentially, it is a cultural issue and discrimination is not confined to the prison system. In British society Travellers are having a difficult time. It comes as no surprise to us, therefore, that they are discriminated against within the prison system.

Senator Fincuane

Is it more of a problem now than in the past? Recently the British media highlighted a case in Essex in which up to 1,000 Travellers had camped illegally, causing resistance within a small rural community which was ill-prepared for such an invasion. With the increase in the number travelling to Britain, are greater numbers of Travellers ending up in prison?

Fr. McFlynn

The numbers are greater and it is more of a problem than in the past. Having said that, I would not believe everything I read in The Daily Mail or the Sun. Some elements of the print media are making more of an issue out of Traveller camps than others. Notwithstanding this, there is an issue to be dealt with. We have found that the number of Travellers in the prison population is increasing.

Chairman

On the broad spectrum of Irish Travellers in prison in the United Kingdom, were they living there for a long period of time or recent arrivals?

Fr. McFlynn

It is difficult to quantify. Some Travellers have been integrated while others have not. Many of the younger prisoners come from families in Britain for some time while others come from families which have only recently arrived. This highlights the need for more research. It is hard to believe but there has been no academic research conducted on the profile of Irish prisoners within the criminal justice system in England or Wales in the past ten or 15 years. If such research was conducted, we would have a much clearer picture of the age profile of prisoners and where they come from. We would better understand the constituency with which we are dealing.

Chairman

It was mentioned that there was even a dispute over the number of Irish prisoners overseas, that it may be 900 or 1,200. Is there a definitive figure?

Fr. McFlynn

The latest figures from the Home Office indicate that there are approximately 650 Irish prisoners in Britain. However, the Home Office does not consider a person from Northern Ireland to be Irish. When an individual is imprisoned, he or she fills in a form and provides such information as name, next of kin, date of birth, religion, nationality and so forth. Some inmates who are Irish do not provide information on nationality because they believe that by doing so, particularly if they are to be in prison for a long period, it will make their lives more difficult. In such cases they often leave this section of the form blank which is filled in by the authorities who enter the word "British".

Senator Finucane

I do not wish to labour the point but in recent times there have been great efforts made here to integrate Travellers by giving them houses. In certain cases, with second or third generation Travellers, a sense of pride develops in families who want to educate their children and so forth. There is not the same emphasis on Traveller integration through housing in England. Travellers in the United Kingdom are more nomadic. A minority of Travellers here are also nomadic and are drifting towards England. They suffer from problems such as illiteracy. Most male Travellers drop out of the education system at a very early age. While they may not be able to read or write, they are very crafty in other directions. When Fr. McFlynn spoke about the emphasis on paperwork within the prison system, I could see how many Travellers would encounter serious difficulties, especially in a totally different environment. There is, at least, some appreciation here of Travellers' culture and the difficulties they experience.

Fr. Hilliard

To respond to a point raised by Senator Mooney, the unit for the Irish abroad represents a wonderful initiative. It helps us to focus on our duty to Irish people abroad. However, where prisoners fit into this is still unclear. It remains a consular issue. There is a need for clarity but if the mandate of the unit was expanded, it could provide opportunities for more proactive and good policy approaches.

Emigrant Advice which is based in Dublin is surveying the most vulnerable persons arriving in the United Kingdom. Once the survey is complete, we will be able to begin our work. We try to identify the institutions of which such persons were part before emigrating in order that we can work with people who were part of their lives. We are exploring the inclusion of emigration issues in the curriculum at different levels and working with career guidance councillors on the dangers associated with emigration. We want to make travel a positive experience.

I concur with Senator Mooney in his remarks on the importance of adopting a more proactive approach. However, whereas funding was provided for centres for Irish emigrants in the United Kingdom and the United States, we found that the least organised groups in terms of funding and policy development were those which worked with emigrants in Ireland. This reflects our history of ignoring the issue of emigration. We did not take on board the fact that people who were being exported would find themselves in vulnerable situations. There is great hope that under Mr. Seán Farrell's leadership we can begin to adopt more proactive approaches.

Senator Mooney

Whatever about the traditional exodus to the United Kingdom, a significant number of the 18,500 travelling to the United States are undocumented. In the light of the new security environment, it is incumbent on us to ensure every aspect of the emigrant experience is explained and that the exploitation of opportunities to enter legally is encouraged. Would there be any merit in Emigrant Advice working through citizens' advice bureaux with the assistance of the emigrant abroad unit?

I appreciate Fr. Hilliard's comments on the school curriculum initiative, a vital measure. However, the social problems associated with the profile of emigrants in the 18 to 24 year age group have been identified. There should be some interaction at local level. Emigrant Advice is based in Dublin and I am not aware that it conducts activities in other parts of the country. It does not appear to have a profile outside Dublin. I only hear about it in the press conferences it holds when it receives funding each year.

I take the point that the prisoner issue is mainly a consular one. However, do the delegates believe, in the light of their own experiences and the submission they have made, that the emigrant abroad unit should take on a wider role, even if is merely co-ordinating the activities of other organisations? Am I correct in saying any contacts made in the course of the commission's important work are with the consular section of the Department of Foreign Affairs? The emigrants abroad unit is primarily concerned with dispensing €7 million to DION and a further €2 million to emigrant centres in the United States. It does not appear to have expanded its role beyond this. Could its resources be used more fruitfully by encompassing the prisoner issue?

Fr. McFlynn noted a lack of research. I understand the emigrant abroad unit is contemplating the provision of finance for a lobbying effort in the United States on undocumented Irish which would be representative of the Coalition of Irish Immigrant Centres. Could it also provide finance for a resource worker to carry out the research called for by Fr. McFlynn?

In the context of the work done by the Irish Commission for Prisoners Overseas, does it have an opinion on the work of the emigrant abroad unit and whether it might be more usefully employed? I appreciate that Mr. Farrell and Ms Síle Maguire do superb work despite being on the road only for the past six to nine months. It cannot be expected matters will be resolved overnight.

Fr. Hilliard

The Senator reveals his sharp insight into the emigrant world. He always amazes us with his knowledge.

Senator Mooney

I thank Fr. Hilliard but I do far less than him.

Fr. Hilliard

The Senator is deeply appreciated.

There is room for co-ordination at policy level with the Irish Commission for Prisoners Overseas to find how best the needs of families and prisoners may be met. Delivery becomes much easier if good policies are put in place. Plans for the future are needed in order that it may be determined how people can be supported. However, consular involvement is required in individual cases because each country has its own laws. The circumstances of each individual should be respected.

We are involved with the CIIC at local level and every agency carries our booklets. I was involved in the training of CIIC officers who have told us they are under-resourced. The view of Emigrant Advice Network, a second tier organisation, is that it should network with agencies which may not have a first-hand interest in emigration or cannot afford to do so but can be affiliated to us so as to receive information and training on the needs of emigrants. Organisations such as Alone have engaged in outreach activities with the Irish abroad. The objective of Emigrant Advice Network is to provide the best possible information and services for affiliated organisations. Despite 200 years of emigration, we have only just started to formulate policy in this matter.

Chairman

I thank the delegates for their comprehensive response. They are aware that this is one of two core issues for consideration by the sub-committee during this calendar year and we intend to progress it as much as possible. Senator Mooney and others have made suggestions on our future actions. A meeting with the Minister for Foreign Affairs or a Minister of State at that Department is merited in order to consider the issues that have arisen here.

Senator Mooney

As this is an interdepartmental matter, it would be useful to have every relevant Department represented on the same day.

Chairman

I am considering inviting the Departments of Foreign Affairs and Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Senator Mooney

The Department of Social and Family Affairs should also be invited.

Chairman

That Department is involved to a lesser degree. As political issues arise in the context of the Departments of Foreign Affairs and Justice, Equality and Law Reform, it would be helpful to have Ministers from these Departments attend. If the Senator proposes that this be done, the sub-committee might be in agreement.

Senator Mooney

I formally propose that such a step be taken.

Chairman

I was interested to learn of the commitment made in the Programme for Prosperity and Fairness in 2001 to focus on this issue. Matters did not turn out as expected or desired. With the sub-committee's agreement, correspondence will be sent to the Taoiseach outlining what has happened at this morning's meeting and the concerns of the Irish Commission for Overseas Prisoners at the lack of progress on the commitments made in the programme, as well as asking him for a fresh commitment.

Senator Mooney

In the context of the Department of Foreign Affairs, representatives of the consular section and the emigrants abroad unit should also attend in order that methods of co-ordination might be explored.

Chairman

Does the Senator not believe the issues should first be raised with the Departments concerned?

Senator Mooney

I am happy to propose formally that the sub-committee communicate the recommendations contained in this submission to each relevant Department and that a reply be sought. In the context of the Chairman's remarks on Sustaining Progress, the progress made should be queried and questions asked about the reasons for any lack of progress.

Chairman

It would be helpful to engage with them in a question and answer session at a meeting rather than conduct our affairs by correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I thank the delegates for attending. Their presentation has been very helpful. This issue is on our agenda and their input will assist us in raising it to a higher level of activity. I congratulate them on the outstanding work they are doing for people who might otherwise be ignored. It is impacting positively on the lives not just of prisoners but their families and I commend them fully. The joint committee will be delighted to assist in whatever way it can.

Senator Mooney

Is Ms Prior saying there is no State input whatsoever to the hardship fund?

Ms Prior

Yes.

Senator Mooney

I ask because one of her recommendations is that consideration be given to removing the discretionary element from the SWA payment to the families of prisoners and the extension of this allowance to those on small incomes. Would it be useful to engage the Department of Social and Family Affairs on this specific issue? Is that Department helping prisoners' families at all, leaving aside the question of the hardship fund?

Ms Prior

Under the supplementary welfare guidelines they are entitled to apply for assistance for up to two visits overseas per year, if they are on a welfare allowances. That is helpful but it is at the discretion of the community welfare officer.

If a person is not on social welfare but is on a very low income, and there are many such people, then he or she does not qualify. It is much more expensive in such circumstances. For example, if one does not have a credit card one cannot avail of cheap flights. A family visiting a relative in France waited three days and had to present each day before the examining magistrate before being allowed in. It is not that easy and much more expensive than one might imagine.

These same families send money over as an allowance every month. Other European countries give their nationals imprisoned overseas an allowance but Ireland does not.

Senator Mooney

That is why I believe it is an area worthy of further exploration, considering we are a burgeoning economy with money in plentiful supply. We politicians know that the cheap flight regime does not necessarily accommodate everybody. I was personally acquainted with a prisoner on remand in France for two years and I witnessed the personal trauma and financial expense the family suffered. The family was not on social welfare and was not poor but was drained financially by the experience.

I am anxious that we should pursue this. There should be some mechanism among the various State agencies to assist in this area.

Chairman

The committee will return to all of those issues.

The joint committee went into private session at 1.15 p.m. and adjourned at 1.20 p.m. sine die.