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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 1 Oct 2008

Situation in Angola: Discussion.

I welcome the delegation, particularly Ms Rosário Advirta, Christian Aid's country programme manager for Angola, who is here in place of Mr. Ernesto Cassinda, director of ACM Kwanza-Sul, the Angolan partner of Christian Aid. I welcome Mr. Luiz Araujo, director of SOS Habitat, and Dr. David McNair, policy and advocacy officer, Christian Aid Ireland. I also welcome Ms Diana Tarre, the interpreter who will interpret from Portuguese for Mr. Araujo.

I advise delegates that whereas Members of the Houses enjoy absolute privilege regarding utterances made in committee, witnesses do not enjoy such privilege. Accordingly, caution should be exercised, particularly regarding references of a personal nature. To begin, Dr. McNair will make some brief introductory comments. He will be followed by Ms Advirta and Mr. Araujo.

We have an apology from Deputy O'Hanlon who is away. I congratulate Deputy O'Brien and his wife, Susan, on the birth of their first child, a daughter named Kaylin. I thank Mr. Ronan Lenihan for taking the place as clerk of Mr. Paul Kelly who is away. I also welcome and introduce Ms Emer Deane who joins us as a policy advisor to the committee on secondment to the Houses of the Oireachtas from the Department of Foreign Affairs. We look forward to working with her.

We can now proceed to the beginning of the presentations. As we are all aware, Angola, which has been independent since 1975, struggled with 27 years of civil war until a peace agreement was signed with UNITA in 2002. It is now one of the world's fastest growing economies, largely due to its position as Africa's largest producer of oil. Last month Angola successfully held its first elections in 16 years, an important step in the country's long and difficult transition to democracy. The current EU Presidency described the elections as being "successful overall", adding that "Angola must now look resolutely to the future, pursuing its economic recovery and democratisation process."

The purpose of today's meeting is for Christian Aid and its partner organisation, SOS Habitat, to brief the committee on their work and the impact of the current political position on the work. In particular, they will deal with the areas of housing, land and human rights.

Christian Aid is the official aid and international development agency of seven churches in Ireland - The Church of Ireland, the Methodist Church in Ireland, the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, the Non-Subscribing Presbyterian Church in Ireland, the Moravian Church, the Religious Society of Friends or Quakers and the Salvation Army. It is also part of ACT International, or Action by Churches Together International, the worldwide ecumenical network for emergency relief.

Christian Aid Ireland also works in close partnership with Irish Aid and will receive €17 million over the period 2007 to 2011 for development work in post-conflict countries, including Angola, through the MAPS II funding mechanism. Christian Aid has supported local organisations in Angola since 1985. Its work focuses on holding decision makers to account for the delivery of services and benefits, prevention of the spread of HIV and helping poor communities establish more secure livelihoods.

SOS Habitat is a partner organisation of Christian Aid in Angola. It supports inhabitants in the neighbourhoods of greater Luanda in a non-violent struggle for the legalisation of land and houses and against evictions. It also works to get local citizens to take up initiatives for self-development and escape marginalisation.

Today's presentation is also in the context of the 2008 UN World Habitat Day, to be held in Luanda, Angola, on Monday, 6 October. That Angola chose to host this day can be seen as an indication of the country's ambition to embrace a new era of development and basic rights. It also provides a useful opportunity to bring an international focus to Angola at this time of significant challenge and opportunity in that country.

Before we start I ask those present to switch off mobile phones and BlackBerries completely because even on silent mode, they affect the recording system. I ask Dr. McNair to begin.

Dr. David McNair

On behalf of Christian Aid Ireland, I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to address the committee on the current human rights issues faced by some of our partner organisations in Angola. I also thank the committee for the continuing support of the Government since 2006 for programmes in Angola and other post-conflict countries administered by Christian Aid Ireland through the MAPS II funding mechanism. The funding provided by the Irish Government supports some of the world's poorest and most vulnerable people.

Angola is a vibrant African nation which has much in common with Ireland. A country emerging from years of conflict, it has experienced dramatic economic growth as a result of its booming oil production. Yet in Angola, the majority of people live in absolute poverty. Ireland took advantage of its position in creating a strong knowledge-based economy through attracting investment and pursuing education and strong democratic governance. Angola, however, is at a critical stage in its history and has arguably the best opportunity in 50 years for pro-poor development using the rich endowment of resources at the country's disposal.

This opportunity to address the committee is timely for two reasons. First, as the Chairman has mentioned, there were elections in Angola on 5 September represented an opportunity for change in the country. Second, on 6 October 2008, Angola will host the UN World Habitat Day conference under the theme of harmonious cities.

With this in mind, we are grateful for the opportunity to facilitate presentations for two of Christian Aid's partners working on the issue of land rights in Angola, ACM Kwanza-Sul, a branch of the YMCA that works in one of Angola's provinces and SOS Habitat, an organisation defending housing and human rights in general and especially on the outskirts of Angola's capital, Luanda.

SOS Habitat is represented by its co-ordinator, Mr. Luiz Araujo. Unfortunately, Mr. Ernesto Cassinda from ACM Kwanza-Sul is unable to attend today but Christian Aid's Angola country manager, Ms Rosário Advirta, will present on his behalf.

Ms Rosário Advirta

I thank the committee for this opportunity to address it on the current human rights issues in Angola. I will read a presentation prepared by our partner, ACM Kwanza-Sul, the provincial branch of YMCA. We would like the opportunity for our partners to have this voice here.

ACM Kwanza-Sul is one of Christian Aid's partners funded through MAPS and the local branch of the international YMCA-YWCA. As has been mentioned, the recent elections in Angola represented an opportunity for change. Following 27 years of civil war, Angola has a window of opportunity to pursue a peace that includes all Angolans in a post-conflict settlement. Angola can follow a path of equitable development through the promotion of democratic principles and by using its vast natural resources to fuel economic and social development. However, the risk is that Angola follows the failed state model and becomes deeply divided and again prone to conflict.

As has also been mentioned, on 6 October Angola will host the UN World Habitat Day conference. This presents an important opportunity to highlight the issue of land rights for Angolans on an international stage. The local authorities pointed out that the choice of Angola to host these celebrations is due to the successes of its programme of urbanisation, something that many question.

Angola is a country very rich in natural resources. As the Chairman said, it is now Africa's largest oil producer. With continuing growth in oil production, set to reach 2 million barrels a day soon, Angola's economy is predicted to grow by 15% in 2008 and approximately 10% in 2009. Yet this economic wealth is not distributed throughout the population. Furthermore, spiralling property prices and pressure for land in the country is leading to systematic abuse of land rights and mass evictions of the poor, often with minimal or no compensation.

People have been expropriated of their agricultural land, at times without advance warning and without compensation. When there is compensation it is limited. On the other hand, more often than not, the expropriations have been made by people or official entities according to Angolan legislation.

As highlighted by an Angolan national organisation, Land Network:

the inadequate and above all, the lack of compensation, has resulted in the misery of many families whose land is their principal source of income, if not the only source of survival. This constitutes a violation of the human rights, consecrated in the domestic and International law.

Within the rural areas there are conflicts between people with power, specifically army chiefs, generals and ministers, against the agricultural communities. A practical example is the irrigated perimeter of the Humpata - some years ago some generals of the armed forces created vast areas of fruit cultivation here, alleging this to be a project of the social security insurance of the armed forces. A traditional leader of Humpata, without advance warning to the communities, illegally sold more land to the generals, which joined with the area already occupied by them, coming to a total of 300 hectares. A conflict started and a civil society land coalition intervened, but with little success.

In Gambos, in the province of Huila, there was a rush to former colonial demarcations by new entrepreneurs. Pastoral populations reacted negatively to this movement, as new farmers made it difficult or impossible to access certain water sources and pastures. The authorities of Huila province revealed that many of these farmers held more land than was registered or than they needed. In one case, subsequent reorganization allowed the communities to recover more than 5,000 hectares for their collective use. This case was partly settled in a negotiated manner, but elsewhere in Gambos there are similar situations in which conflicts are still ongoing.

The land conflict in the ACM work area of Waku-Kungo started with new arrivals who dispossessed more than 50 families of their lands without compensation. Following independence in 1975, the new Angolan state nationalised all property which had been abandoned by the Portuguese colonists. The communities who had previously been expelled from their lands began to return in an effort to reclaim them. Many who were not the previous owners but were relatives of the previous owners reclaimed the land of their ancestors.

Since the end of the war in 2002, the Angolan Government has begun many agricultural development programmes in the province of Kwanza-Sul, particularly in the municipality of Waku-Kungo. Many of those who benefit from the programme are politically or militarily influential. Often, lands are sold to large farmers and companies wishing to expand their farms by residents who are not the rightful owners of the land. The government advocates the continuation of the fazenda-style development model, a cornerstone of its programme.

The complicated issue of land conflict is a national problem and is not restricted to Waku-Kungo. With the various actors now involved - post-colonial owners, post-independence settlers, displaced populations, the Angolan State, and the individuals and companies attached to the new commercial agricultural sector - rights of access to and ownership of land are convoluted and subject to abuse. The rights of many rural communities are unprotected.

ACM, in general, has been working to prevent conflicts, informing the most vulnerable populations of the agrarian rights recognised and consecrated by law. The land law of Angola, which was approved in 2004, is based on the principle that all and any intervention for development must start by respecting the agricultural communities for whom land is the main means of subsistence and survival. ACM co-ordinates the Land Forum of Kwanza-Sul, a consortium of 13 organizations that works so that the agrarian rights of the poor persons and vulnerable groups of Kwanza-Sul are recognized and supported by positive policies and practices of the Government and other actors. Currently, we are engaged in the following activities: publication of a small manual with a summary of the key aspects of land law, so that people can increase their knowledge levels; dissemination of the new land law in the villages, churches, and even in the government structures related to land issues; enabling and fortifying local communitarian groups in agrarian rights to improve their means in the defence of their lands; together with the appropriate government structures, supporting the demarcation and ownership of communitarian lands in partnership with related institutions; and carrying out case studies to support monitoring activities to the public on land politics, with a focus on regulation of the land law, to support advocacy actions in order to influence political decision makers, and to reformulate and implement policies and practices that do not harm poor people.

Angola is in a post-conflict window of opportunity in which, with appropriate governance, it can take advantage of the rich resources within the country. However, the economic wealth of the country is currently creating significant problems for the poorest and most vulnerable. Angola is also taking its place on the international political stage. In 2007, Angola was elected to the new UN Commission on Human Rights, and discussions have begun regarding the ratification of the UN conventions against corruption and on social and economic rights. These are opportunities for the international community to take action.

In order to avoid future problems, ACM believes that the following measure should be taken. The Government should be held to account by the international community in abiding by its international treaty obligations in relation to housing, land and property rights. In particular, it should be held to account in the following areas: international standards surrounding evictions; the public administration, before proceeding to the expropriation right, must adequately inform the families who may be affected, in such a way to prevent conflicts; and whenever the state has necessity to grant lands belonging to individuals, it must first integrate them in its public domain and only after that proceed with the concessions that are convenient to the state.

We therefore appeal to the Irish Government to use its diplomatic relations and political influence to ensure that international donors support the efforts to implement land law and support other initiatives that aim to empower communities to have ownership of land insurance and land titles; international donors continue to support the initiatives of the Government of Angola to strengthen existing actions relating to good governance and anti-corruption measures; and international donors help the Government of Angola to continue its efforts to put land and property relations on a sounder legal footing and to strengthen its administrative and adjudicative mechanisms.

Mr. Luis Araujo

I thank the committee for the short time it offers us. It is enough to present the long suffering of the Angolan people. We distributed a few photographs before this presentation to give members an idea of how the people and places look and what we are going to present today. SOS Habitat is an organisation that does not belong to any political party. It is an association of activists and pacifists. It was born out of the organisation of the people shown in the photographs. I am the only person not shown in the photographs. SOS Habitat has responded to the accusation made by the Government that the people in the photo are anarchic occupiers of the land. In good faith, this organisation presents programmes to sort out the chaotic structures to which the Government referred. However, there was no response from the Government, not even a refusal, concerning what we do. Immediately after we asked for this, they threatened to demolish houses and evict the people. That was when we understood that the reason offered to SOS Habitat for this stance was not the real reason. Even after that, we continue to try to sort out those issues with the state administration of the lands and so far it has not been possible to get ahead by even one small step.

We wrote to the general attorney of the Angolan republic, the interior minister, the administrators and the governor of the province of Luanda. We brought the people who are in the photos seen by the members to the police stations in order that they could complain and report the people who hit them and demolished their houses. From 2002 until today these people have seen no advancement in their processes.

Those who did the damage arrived early in the morning without a warrant or advance warning and demolished the houses without speaking to any individual person to warn them of the situation. They evicted them and demolished the houses in front of them. They used the symbols and weapons of the state against the people. Every day, none the less, activists from SOS Habitat continue to knock on doors and try to pressure the entities and authorities to solve the matter. We observe that the perpetrators have impunity for their actions. We were forced to look for help from the international community. We spoke to a delegation from the European Commission in Angola, to representatives of member states of the European Union and also to representatives from the United States. So far we have encountered absolute silence. They are unable to approach the Angolan government and make representations on our behalf.

SOS Habitat, together with Human Rights Watch, made several reports that were disseminated worldwide in order that people may become aware of the situation. Christian Aid Ireland, the housing organisation based in Geneva, and Human Rights Watch have all written letters to the President but no change has resulted from any of these. The attitude remains the same and impunity still rules.

All this began to happen in recent times when the new law of the land was approved. One of the articles of the law of the land states that every person has three years within which to legalise the land he holds. This means that until the deadline expires and before the state can refuse it, the person's title to the land is still legal. Why therefore do these people come and demolish the houses? They are the ones who created the law concerning the three years allowed to make land title.

The Angolan code of administration contains an article stating that if within 90 days a reply is not received, the application has been accepted. One of the things SOS Habitat did was to help all these people to write their documents of request. None of them received a reply within 90 days and therefore their title to the land was legally correct.

What rule of law is this? What kind of law is ruling Angola at present? I do not believe there is any rule of law there. Those in charge tried to produce an image for people abroad to see but I do not believe in it. Every time we make an effort to ensure that the law is being applied, nothing happens. After the Marxist socialism in place between 1975 and 1990 and with the end of the Cold War we have adapted to the market economy. Previously, it was a sin to be rich, but nowadays being rich is a virtue. They are building a market economy, which I am not against, but the market economy they are building at present takes the form of old colonialism. They are reproducing the same situation we lived through before and of which we were supposed to be free.

Worst of all, the member states of the European Union are aware of this situation. It is essential that partnership agreements between the Africa-Pacific countries and the European Union are established in order to respect human rights, the rule of law and democracy. The EU member states with representation in Angola are aware this is happening as is the European Commission delegation. I have presented this situation to the European Union in Brussels with the help of members of the European Parliament. However, as of today, the European Union delegation in Angola has not raised the matter.

Last year we wrote a letter to the European Commission accusing its mission in Angola of complicity with the perpetrators of human rights violations there. The European Union has, as one of its main propositions, the promotion of human rights worldwide. The ACP agreements are very clear on this matter. The position at present is truly shameful for all member states of the European Union, even those not directly involved in the process. This complicity leads us to believe that member states only regard Angola as a place to extract oil and diamonds. One of the principal countries responsible for this complicity among EU member states is the former colonialist country, Portugal. The Portuguese Prime Minister visited Angola recently, one month before the elections there, and he said that governance in Angola was healthy. Only in Africa would a person with authority say governance that does not respect human rights is good governance.

There are differences in the European Union. I understand that Ireland is not a state directly responsible for this matter and there are others in the same situation as Ireland. Nevertheless, it stains the image of every EU country because they are now seen as regarding Angola only as a place to extract oil and diamonds.

I ask the committee to intervene in this situation on behalf of the Angolan people, because it cannot continue. So far, SOS Habitat has managed to persuade the population to remain peaceful and not react violently to the situation. However, we are aware that a land war has already started. There are photos in front of the committee of people being threatened and shot at with Kalashnikov assault rifles. At present only one side of the conflict has weapons and that is the side perpetrating human rights violations. I will not arm myself, nor will I support anyone who does. However, I am afraid the day will come when I will no longer be able to convince people not to react violently. The committee can do much to help. It may be able to prevent a conflict that may be even worse than the conflict Angola has just emerged from, which lasted for 30 years. I thank the committee.

I thank each of the speakers for their contributions. Land rights is a major issue for the delegation. It has particular resonance here given Irish history. In the 19th century most land, through confiscation and plantation, was in the hands of landlords. Their tenants were tenants at will, who held their farms not on contract but at the pleasure of the landlord. They could be evicted without compensation and we had many pictures similar to those presented today from that period. This led to a campaign for land reform. In turn, it also led to rights for the tenants. These were commonly referred to as the three Fs: fixity of tenure, fair rent and free sale. A tribunal, the Irish Land Commission, was also established to deal with applications for fair rents. However, with the passing of time, it became clear that a more radical change to the land question was required, namely, the abolition of landlordism altogether and its replacement by a system of tenant proprietors. Many Acts were passed to ensure this could happen. I only mention it because it has such a resonance here in Ireland and with all people from all parts of Ireland. There is a deep appreciation here of the need for a sound legal footing in questions of land and tenancy rights.

I join the Chairman in welcoming the presentation by representatives of Christian Aid and SOS Habitat. I shall be brief. If we want to be of most assistance it would help if we had a further written communication from Christian Aid. I suggest we identify the different levels of appropriate intervention by our committee. First, there is the issue of the quality of the land law in Angola. Without getting distracted into it, I have a view on the Irish land experience. This illustrates a conflict in several other countries in Africa. There are two models that are in collision with each other. One is that developed by people such as Professor Hernando de Soto and others which argues that one needs titles to create property to create credit to develop a market economy. There is a huge lobby for that even here in Ireland among certain academics who want to privatise what was previously communal land. The second model is one which acknowledges the distinction between those who own the land and those who use the land or need it for their food and for surplus.

To be of assistance, our committee has to decide on the point at which we can be of most help. One is about the assumptions. What is the land law seeking to do and does it meet human rights standards? This is not easy because the document shows there are original occupants, colonial people who assumed ownership, the state which replaced the colonial system and new people who have oil money who want to have titles established so that they can, in fact, take land. To be of assistance, we need to know the application of the land law for communities in which Christian Aid is already involved.

I am sure this committee will want to look at the human rights clauses in the agreement of the African Caribbean Pacific, ACP, countries which place obligations on the state and such submission as might have been made to the Human Rights Commission in Geneva. It would help the committee if it knew which rights to which place at which level of advocacy, because it creates an agenda in which we can be of some practical assistance. I would like to be of assistance because we are indebted to our visitors, Christian Aid, and the people on the ground. The prosecution of human rights is not an abstract thing when one's house or land is being taken.

My final point which people in Europe, especially former colonial powers are not good at recognising is, the balance between communal rights to land and individual rights to land. In addressing food security and the production of a surplus for a local market, the person whose rights are most important is the person who depends on the land.

When we were in Africa and other countries we saw that one needs titles in cities to stop people being evicted so that they have some certainty about where they live. That argument is often used to achieve the privatisation of what was previously communal land in rural areas.

They have a special problem in the cities where the land is being taken.

Exactly, but it should not be abused as a means of driving on a particular model that dislodges rural people from their livelihood.

Before I call on Deputy Darragh O'Brien, I wish to inform the committee that we had apologies from Deputies Alan Shatter and Michael Noonan who had to attend another committee meeting which happens to clash. I am also a member of this other committee, the Joint Committee on the Constitutional Amendment on Children, but I am sure they will look after my interests there.

I have been noting what we can do more or less along the same lines. Certainly we will write to the Minister for Foreign Affairs and our representatives in the EU communicating our views. Perhaps we should look also at the land laws there and in some of the other countries, especially our programme countries.

We should ask the Irish Centre for Human Rights to be of assistance to us.

I welcome the delegates and thank them for their presentation. I shall ask a few questions as opposed to making a contribution. How widespread are the demolitions and evictions?

Mr. Luis Araujo

It involves tens of thousands of people. SOS Habitat has received threats to demolish houses and there has been actual demolition. The demolitions have affected approximately 20,000 people. Also, the houses of people from agricultural communities on the periphery were not demolished but they were directly affected by the demolitions. They were evicted.

I agree with Deputy Higgins and the Chairman on the need for an appropriate response to bring about the best solution or exert pressure in the right places. I mention this because the second last point in the presentation from Christian Aid is a request that international donors continue to support the initiatives of the Government of Angola to strengthen current actions relating to good governance and anti-corruption, which is all very well. As a donor country, Ireland has given over €6.7 million to Angola since 2006 and €2.5 million so far this year. Are we to take it from what we have heard that the evictions and demolitions are government-backed?

Ms Rosário Advírta

Before Mr. Araujo answers the final part of the question, I remind the Deputy that I have only read the presentation. Ernesto Cassinda, another partner, could not be here. He is the co-ordinator of ACM-YMCA. This is not Christian Aid's position. It is his position.

It is his position, not that of Christian Aid.

Ms Rosário Advírta

The one I read.

Is the one Ms Advírta read on behalf of Christian Aid or a personal view?

Ms Rosário Advírta

No, it is the representative of ACM-YMCA Kwanza-Sul who could not be here today due to a problem.

This is a donor country that has given substantial amounts of taxpayers' money to Angola and we have a request to strengthen ties with it. That is why I am talking about an appropriate response. Is it a question that we should consider turning off the tap and not allocating any more funds? Is that what SOS Habitat or Christian Aid wants the Irish Government to do to show we are serious about not funding projects in countries in which there are clear breaches of human rights?

Mr. Luis Araujo

To reply to the last question, I am not asking Ireland to stop the funding. I am not even sure about the funding Ireland is providing for Angola, other than it comes from particular entities, individuals and through Christian Aid also. What I am asking and what I have asked previously is that the European Commission respect the laws of the ACP.

The Chairman has intimated that is something the committee will do. Regarding the land law in place, it was mentioned that people had three years to register their land. Is it the case that this is being overlooked? Mr. Araujo was clear when he said these evictions were government backed. Is he happy to say that is the case?

Mr. Luis Araujo

Absolutely. The new life project is a new project of the government directed by the military house of the republican presidency for the manager of urban housing production. He uses the state authority and the forces of the government and the administration to create housing structures that the people should not be living in because they are not treated like citizens. When the houses are sold, 20% go to public workers. When the payment is finished, they become private property and 80% are sold in the market. I say now and will say to anyone that the chief of the government has maximum responsibility for this situation.

The MAPS programme is available and members will find that the spending is well directed.

Mr. Luis Araujo

I would like to clarify for Deputy Higgins that the problem is not the lack of rules, documents or papers. It is the lack of respect for everything. The international economic pact for economic and social rights is part of the Angolan rule of law. The legislation protects the private property of the people and people in Angola who do not have papers. There are traditional norms but they are not respected. That is the problem.

I welcome the visitors. This meeting has given us an opportunity to get an insight into the new state of Angola which appears to have moved from conflict to being a growing economy. It is involved in major oil production, yet there is great inequality.

I do not have much knowledge of the situation other than what the delegates have told me. Perhaps another visit here by the delegates would be useful and it would afford us time to examine what they have said and to consider the different types of interventions that could be made to establish better links between Ireland and Angola in regard to land law, those who are dispossessed of their homes and the awful abuse that takes place there.

I listened carefully to what was said. Deputy Higgins made all the relevant points with knowledge. I rely on his knowledge in terms of what he said about how we can move forward. I do not have any questions but I want to learn more about the situation.

I thank the delegates for coming here today. How large an issue was the question of land rights during the recent election? Did people's homelessness as a result of being evicted have an impact on whether they had a right to vote? Do the delegates have any hope that the new government will be any different than the regime that was in place previously?

Would Dr. McNair or Ms Rosario like to reply to any of the questions put?

Mr. Luiz Araujo

I will await confirmation of the invitation offered by Senator Ormonde. I am available to come here again and explain the situation and talk about this theme until there is nothing else to talk about. There were more troubles over the election in the capital, Luanda, than elsewhere. The places where people went to vote opened only five or six hours after voting in the elections commenced. Voters voted without there being electoral lists. The counting of more than 200 tables of votes were transferred until the next day, but the next day only 40 of those 200 were opened. Any person was able to vote at any of the tables without having to sign those leases. This was witnessed by one of the European Members of Parliament, Ana Gomes, MEP. This is written in her blog. She was an observer at the elections.

The opposition protested against the elections in Luanda. It is hard for people here to conceive the idea that Angola still has a state party. The expression used to describe the private associations and other entities was that they were a "necklace", a piece of jewellery to adorn the party in power. In the good old Soviet way the chief the MPLA is still the person who rules and controls everything at every level.

The President can show that his party won 82% of the votes, irrespective of how that happened. He can show that externally. We will examine all that Mr. Araujo has told us. What he has said has been automatically recorded and broadcast on television.

Mr. Luiz Araujo

It is good to be on record.

We can contact Mr. Araujo if we need further information.

Mr. Luiz Araujo

The ruling party won more than 80% of the votes, but we should remember that Hitler was elected in a democracy.

That is right. I am not arguing in favour of the president but simply pointing out that he can make his party's success look very good in international terms when he shows those figures.

Dr. David McNair

I thank the committee for their interest and enthusiasm about this issue. In response to the suggestions made by Senator Ormonde and Deputy Higgins, we would be more than happy to develop this issue, both in a written submission, and in further meetings, if that is appropriate.

That would be very helpful.

Ms Rosário Advirta

What I want to say is basically the same. We work together. We will be happy to send the committee such information. We will send a summary of what is happening there from Christian Aid's point of view. I thank the committee in this respect.

I thank the delegates for coming here today and for their contributions. We are much more aware of the situation there. As Senator Ann Ormonde said, it is helpful to meet people who are directly involved and it brings the situation much more to our immediate attention. We are very much more aware of what Christian Aid and SOS Habitat are doing to ensure the property rights of many ordinary Angolans are protected and respected. I commend both organisations on their work in this regard and on taking the initiative of using the UN World Habitat Day 2008 as an opportunity to bring international focus to bear on these issues of utmost importance.

We mentioned some of the issues we will examine and we will discuss them among ourselves. We will communicate with the Minister and our colleagues on all sides in the EU. We will examine the land laws in particular because that is an urgent question for the delegates. We will examine the question of property titles in regard to people in the cities and what is happening in that respect. It would make a very valuable study. The delegates can be assured we will contact them to obtain further information. We would welcome a further presentation from them, a submission in writing.

I thank the delegates again for coming here. We now have to proceed with other private business.

The joint committee went into private session at 5.50 p.m. and adjourned at 6 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Tuesday, 7 October 2008.
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