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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND TRADE debate -
Monday, 20 Feb 2012

International Co-operation, Humanitarian Aid and Crisis Response: Discussion with EU Commissioner

I welcome the Commissioner for International Co-operation, Humanitarian Aid and Crisis Response, Ms Kristalina Georgieva. The Commissioner is accompanied by Ms Barbara Nolan, head of representation of the European Commission in Ireland, and Mr. Martijn Quinn, a member of the Commissioner's cabinet.

Taken collectively, the European Commission and EU member states are the world's largest humanitarian donor, accounting for approximately 40% of global humanitarian aid. The European Commission's Directorate General for Humanitarian Aid and Civil Protection, DG ECHO, is one of the most important players in the field. Last year, the Commission distributed more than €1.1 billion in assistance to 18 million people. Rather than intervening directly, the Commission channels support via the network of NGOs, the International Committee of the Red Cross and UN agencies such as the UN refugee agency and the World Food Programme.

The joint committee welcomes the opportunity to discuss the Commission's priorities in the field of humanitarian aid. As we are all too aware, it can be difficult in times of crisis and conflict to uphold fully the principles of humanity, impartiality, neutrality and operational independence. The committee is keen to hear the Commissioner's perspective on how these principles can be upheld when operating in difficult security and political contexts, such as the parts of the Sahel region of western Africa which are expected to suffer a major nutritional and food crisis this year. What steps can be taken now to ensure that the crisis does not become a full scale disaster and famine like that which occurred earlier this year in the Horn of Africa?

I invite the Commissioner to share her views on the priorities and key challenges in her field of expertise which may arise during the upcoming Irish Presidency of the European Union during the first half of 2013. It will be exciting for all of us in Ireland to hold the Presidency over that period. In light of the major review the Government is conducting of Irish Aid policy, what issues would the Commissioner like to see prioritised by Ireland? Coming from County Clare, I have a particular interest in the global humanitarian hub which is proposed in the programme for Government. The Government is considering whether to tender for a feasibility study of the proposal. Shannon is an ideal location for such a hub. It has ample capacity, permits fast turnaround times for aircraft and is open on a 24-seven basis. I ask the Commissioner for her views on locating a humanitarian hub in Ireland. It would be important for Ireland, the region and the future of our airport.

Before I invite the Commissioner to make her opening remarks, I advise the witness that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of utterances at this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease making remarks on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their remarks. They are directed that only comments and evidence on the subject matter of this meeting are to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that where possible they should not criticise nor make charges against any Member of either House of the Oireachtas, a person outside of the Houses, nor of an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Ms Kristalina Georgieva

I thank the Chairman and members for the opportunity to address the committee. This is my second time to meet the committee, although it is a substantially changed committee compared to my last visit. One thing that has not changed, however, is Ireland's significant role in the area of development and humanitarian aid and the remarkable commitment it has sustained even through these difficult times to help people in dire need around the world. It is a credit to the Irish people and the people in this room that they have the wisdom to recognise it is not only morally right to help populations in crisis, but also good for the ultimate stability and security of the world we all share.

I will be brief in making my opening remarks so that members have an opportunity to ask questions. I will begin by introducing my portfolio to those who may be less familiar with the organisation of the Commission. I am the first dedicated Commissioner for humanitarian aid and crisis response. It is a decision stemming from the Lisbon treaty, but it is also a result of a very clear trend of increased frequency and intensity of natural disasters and also increased complexity of conflicts. At any one point some 30 to 40 countries are either in a conflict, coming out of a conflict or slipping into a conflict, which creates tremendous fragility around the world.

I also present to the committee two instruments for assistance in humanitarian aid and civil protection that are now brought under one roof in my services. We provide humanitarian aid to countries outside the European Union. We deploy civil protection to respond to disasters inside the European Union and outside it. For comparison, since 2001 when the civil protection mechanism was created to make us help each other when a disaster overwhelms any one of our countries, the activation of this mechanism has rapidly increased from only three in 2001 to 32 in 2010. More than half have come as activations from outside the European Union.

The job I do, as the Chairman stated, is based on a team in Brussels and more so in the hotspots of the planet. The vast majority of my staff are in the crisis areas in more than 40 countries where conflicts or natural disasters tear apart societies. These people help us to anticipate crises, act swiftly, target the most vulnerable and make good use of our taxpayers' sacrifice. They are the eyes and the ears of our taxpayers. We do our job together with partners who are signed up to a partnership agreement with the European Commission - nearly 200 United Nations humanitarian organisations and NGOs. Every year we check one third of our partners and one third of their projects to ensure that they meet our requirements for operational quality and fiscal prudence.

We operate with a budget of approximately €800 million at the outset of the year. We also rely on the emergency reserve of the Commission, which unfortunately, in the two years since I came to this post, we have had to use to the fullest extent because of the enormous disasters that occurred in Haiti, Pakistan and the Horn of Africa. As the Chairman stated, with the €1.1 billion we spent last year we touched the lives of nearly 150 million people around the world, providing food, water, health care, protection and shelter.

I move to my second introductory point which is our priorities for this year. On the operational front, the key humanitarian emergencies facing us today are the Sahel - I thank the Chairman for raising this point; Somalia; Sudan and South Sudan; post-election Democratic Republic of Congo, where a protracted crisis has somewhat deepened; and Yemen, where unfortunately we see all the warning signs of what could potentially turn into another Somalia. For the Sahel we were the first to ring the alarm bell that there is a looming crisis that can destabilise a fragile region with potential negative risks also for the security of Europe. We have mobilised €275 million from humanitarian aid and development co-operation to put the brakes on this crisis before it hits hard.

I wish to show something that ties into the point of what we can do for the Presidency. This device represents a very simple way to identify malnutrition before it kills or damages a child. It is an upper arm measurement and once it gets into the yellow and orange zone - the danger zone - a child is at risk. It costs €20 to treat a child when this device is in the green and it costs €100 when we are in the danger zone and when there is already acute malnutrition. Early warnings allow us not only to save more lives, but also to do that at lower cost to our people who sacrifice to help others.

The most important policy priority for us this year is introducing legislation on strengthening the EU disaster response. This is modernising our civil protection legislation to allow us to have more predictable mobilisation of response in the face of natural disasters. We will also continue to work to link relief to rehabilitation and development. We will introduce a regulation on setting up a humanitarian aid corps to give a platform for young Europeans to leave their values of solidarity around the world. We strongly support a principled approach - the one the Chairman outlined - as the only way in which humanitarian aid can serve victims of disasters and especially of conflicts. We would benefit tremendously from Ireland's support for this approach to continue to be the basis of European assistance.

I come to my third point. Where we see a key demand from our citizens is on accountability for results. Europeans continue to be very supportive of humanitarian aid, but they expect us to do everything possible to deliver the highest results for their sacrifice. This improvement of efficiency of operations focused on results and excellence is what we strive to achieve.

Ireland will hold the Presidency of the European Union in the first half of next year. As a result of Ireland's strong role, especially in the fight against malnutrition, I certainly hope we can find ways to work together so that we can bring more attention to a preventable misery that today unfortunately hits so many, undermining their productive capabilities. Malnutrition not only kills or handicaps children, but it also cuts developing countries' potential for growth and it costs them approximately 3% to 4% in economic growth. I refer to the question on the prospects for the pre-positioning of humanitarian aid and using the capabilities in Ireland. We look forward to the feasibility study. In a world that is becoming more fragile we must have more capability to mobilise and deploy resources faster. We will follow up on the feasibility study with great interest and I will be discussing this with the Minister later.

Thank you, Commissioner. It is good to hear your reassurances on that matter. You referred to our record on human rights and aid. It is great to have this for the country and it is great that the feasibility study has gone out to tender. It is being done by an independent group to ascertain its viability and I hope we will have a result by the second half of this year.

I welcome back the Commissioner. I know she is a graduate of Sofia University and I have had the pleasure of being invited there by the Irish ambassador to perform works of James Joyce. I was very impressed by the beauty of the city and the cultivation of its people. Just as the Commissioner was succinct in her presentation I will try to be succinct in mine. Many of my colleagues will be keen to raise the question of the Sahel situation and that is very important.

I have been on this committee since its formation and traditionally it has tried to ensure that we move progressively toward the 0.7% of GDP figure and we will continue to do so. My colleagues will agree with me about this across party lines. As our economy declines, the fact that the figures are expressed as a percentage means that it is the same burden and gift and we ought to continue it morally. The Commissioner spoke about what is morally good also often having a practical yield as well and over a long career in politics I can endorse that 100%.

I will confine myself to one remark about the Sahel. Africa is my native Continent and I take a certain interest in it. It astonishes me throughout the world that no one ever mentions population. It is not any surprise to me as I approach 70 years of age that in the period since I entered university the population has more than doubled. It was more than 3 billion when I entered Trinity College. It is now 7 billion and climbing towards 9 billion. Shortly, within my lifetime, it will be three times what it was when I was an undergraduate. This must have an effect on resources and it creates problems. We are the most dangerous and destructive animal on the planet. This has climatic effects as well which are then visited upon the poorest and most vulnerable who, in order to sustain themselves, have more children many of whom, unfortunately, perish. The Commissioner gave us a rather dramatic illustration of it. I have seen it and it makes me shudder when I think about it. It is appalling. I would like population to be included in the debate. Every year I go to the release of the UN population and vital statistics report. The one thing never mentioned is population. Why is this? I throw myself in front of the radio microphones and television cameras and reporters, frothing and pleading with them to report the fact that at least the question was asked but the answer is "No". They wish to avoid it and I believe this is because of religious and cultural reasons. I am not being a Scrooge or suggesting we let them die to decrease the surplus population. I know it is the bicentenary of the birth of Dickens but I am not saying that.

We should be concerned about the global perspective but there is one area where Europe has disgraced itself totally. Can the Commissioner offer any information or can she get anything done about the situation of the Roma children in Kosovo in the camps at Osterode and Cesmin Lug? These are children. The Commissioner spoke so movingly about children. However, because they are Romany children some of them have been deported from Germany back to a camp which is the site of the biggest mining company in Europe. It has concentrations of exceptionally dangerous metals, including zinc, arsenic, lead and cadmium. The children there have the highest ever recorded levels of lead in their blood. It has reached such an extent now that the machines will not register them and this applies with other heavy metals as well. This is a UN project. I appeal to the Commissioner to find out the current situation. I have not been in touch with it for some time because I have been involved in two rather turbulent elections so my attention has been elsewhere. These are the most vulnerable children and they are in the heart of our Continent of Europe. I appeal to the Commissioner to do something because children are children, whether in the Sahel, Ethiopia, South America or in Europe. That these children are in Europe is, to my mind, an even greater reproach. We have just had the horrible murder of a beautiful young Roma woman in Dublin. She had only arrived here and she was obliterated in a most brutal fashion. We must realise that these people have rights.

I will take two more questions. I call Deputy Bernard Durkan.

I welcome the Commissioner and thank her for her address to the committee. I thank her for coming before the committee and for bringing to the members of the national parliaments news of the work in which she is engaged. It is a necessary concept to bring this work to the attention of member state parliaments. In particular, I welcome the degree to which she has addressed the issues and prioritised them. This is important. She referred to ten or 12 hotspots. We use these in raising parliamentary questions to monitor on a regular basis the activities of the international community, our Governments and the European Union. It is effective but, as the Commissioner has noted, the problem is vast. There is a question about the degree to which the international community, including the EU, the UN and the combined forces engaged in humanitarian work worldwide, can respond rapidly, effectively and efficiently to crises as they arise, whether crises of starvation or as a result of natural disasters. The case of Haiti comes to mind in this regard.

Another issue we have engaged with in this committee in the past is the question of strategic intervention at the appropriate stage to ensure that aid is diverted to those for whom it was intended without exception. We must exercise a balance between the position on those areas in which there might be less regard for democracy or regimes with little regard for democracy and, at the same time, we must make a judgment about whether it is more important to intervene in a positive way to protect the population.

The points raised by my colleague, Senator Norris, are well made. When the standard of living increases worldwide, it seems the population goes down. This has been the trend internationally for years. Ireland is a classic case; going back 50 or 60 years, the size of families was a good deal greater than it is now. The same applies in all other countries. Our objective should be to try to bring about a situation whereby the quality of life and the standard of living, especially for young families and women of child-bearing age, rises. The sooner we can raise the standard of their lives and expectations, the better for all concerned.

Even in the current economic crisis, Ireland has tried to maintain the level of support in terms of contributions to the international aid programmes. We have already established a high degree of regard for bilateral aid and the general aid programme. This is something to which we are committed and which we will continue. Whenever a disaster occurs, there is an understandable emotional response. However, sometimes the emotional response is not followed up with the material support that is required. For example, places like Haiti and the Horn of Africa are classic examples of where, with the passage of time, the original commitment has faded into oblivion. To what extent can the Commissioner try to ensure that memories that have faded or receded are renewed and reinvigorated?

With regard to Ireland's forthcoming Presidency, it is important the Commissioner, knowing the situation that exists and the commitment we and the European Union have had, can tell us how we can best assist. Many people do not fully recognise or give credit to the fact that the European Union is the greatest giver of aid worldwide. The greatest body of donations comes from the European Union and it is right it gives that lead. How best can we be of assistance to Commissioner Georgieva in her work, while at the same time recognising the limitations in certain areas. For example, we must recognise it is vital to be able to respond quickly, effectively and efficiently, but we must also be aware of the difference between "famine" and "starvation". One comes before the other, but they are issues we have always been anxious to address in this House. I know the Commissioner has been concerned with them also.

I welcome the Commissioner and thank her for her submission. I have just four questions. The Commissioner stated her budget was €800 million and that last year she would probably have drawn another €300 million. If my information is correct, she spent €1.1 billion last year. This seems a small amount. In the context of our aid budget, it is only approximately twice Ireland's aid budget, which seems very small in the context of the problem. Will the Commissioner comment on that?

My second question concerns the conditionality attaching to aid. We are fortunate that we have many NGOs here, including Trócaire and others, who are actively involved and I presume the Commissioner supports and funds some of their activities. However, it seems that in some countries there is a drift towards the use of humanitarian aid to pursue political, military and other objectives. The global war on terror, the drive for policy coherence and other such issues may influence aid, but the concern among NGOs is that the criteria of the "greatest need" is being diluted and that it is being subjected to other priorities, which could have significant and disastrous consequences for people in need. Will the Commissioner comment on this? What is her objective in this regard and is it the priority to respond to life-saving needs? We should also strive for longer-term sustainability and this should be an important priority, but should be secondary to addressing need.

We all saw what happened in the Horn of Africa. Thankfully, we have seen some improvement in that area, although there is still some way to go. Senator Norris mentioned the west African part of the Sahel and I understand that from 8 million to 10 million people are at risk in that area. The UN has recognised that this is a red alert area and that it could follow the route we saw unfortunately last year in the Horn of Africa. I noticed the Sahel was not included in the Commissioner's list of priorities for 2012, unless I misunderstood that. Will the Commissioner comment on that? It is imperative to act. The Commissioner mentioned the arm band in her presentation and I agree that if we can get in before a disaster occurs, it is less costly and the results are better.

The Chairman may not allow my fourth question, but it relates to what the Commissioner said about civil protection. Paddy Ashdown, who was the High Representative for Bosnia and Herzegovina, attended this committee recently and he made some telling points on which I took some notes. This area may not be part of the Commissioner's specific remit within the Commission, but I see it as semi-related and would be interested in her views on it. Mr. Ashdown said that Bosnia as a state had been weakened and was critical of the European Union for doing nothing to stop that. He considered that 11 years of painstaking negotiations were being let drift and were being undermined and he pointed out that, as we know, Europe was a bystander in 1992 when it should have been involved as it was part of our area of influence. He sees a drift to dysfunctionality and criminality and sees a real risk of contagion within the region. He was asking us to highlight the need for the European Union to back the Dayton Agreement rather than set its own different agenda which might undermine progress. He was critical also of Lady Ashton for meeting with Milorad Dodik, a meeting which he sees as giving succour to those undermining the state. We need coherence within the EU Commission with regard to what is still a very sensitive area. The Chairman will bear this out. We visited Bosnia as part of a delegation in recent years and we all returned with some concerns as to future stability within the region. Will the Commissioner comment on this?

I will let the Commissioner come in now and answer those questions. We have three more people who wish to contribute and we will go to them afterwards.

Ms Kristalina Georgieva

I thank members for their questions. I am delighted Senator Norris likes my country. I like it too and I hope that I will see the Senator there sometime.

Senator Norris posed three important questions, one of which was also put by Senator Walsh. On the Sahel and the situation there, I was in Chad and Niger just two weeks ago and my opinion is that the situation is deteriorating rapidly because of the combined impact of three factors. The first of these is drought, which is not unusual for this region. However, this time it is hitting parts of the five countries of the Sahel in this area very severely. In one of the areas I visited in Chad, this year's harvest is only 5% of what it was last year. I see what is happening as related to climate change. The rains still come, but instead of six weeks of continuous rain, the same amount of rain falls in a day or day and a half. This creates tremendous soil degradation and does not allow what has been planted to grow. On top of this, are the returnees from Libya. These 300,000 migrant workers coming into the region used to be a source of income, but now only make more mouths to feed. The third factor is that together with the returnees from Libya, arms are coming into the region. This results in increased activity creating security risks in Mali and northern Nigeria. The President of Chad told me that the situation in northern Nigeria caught them unprepared and that nobody expected the violence that took place there. All of this is pushing food prices up by between 30% and 60% and driving the most vulnerable families into a big crisis. The European Commission was the first body to stand up and say, "A crisis is coming, now is the time to act, let's not wait". Some people said we should wait until March but it would be too late by then.

The international community is now united on the need for action. I called Valerie Amos of the Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs and Josette Sheeran of the World Food Programme to arrange a meeting that took place in Rome last week. It was very significant because it brought Helen Clark of the United Nations Development Programme, Valerie Amos, the three Rome-based agencies and the main donors - the US, the Commission and the EU member states - together. I am optimistic that early action will allow us to prevent the danger of an explosion in the problems in the Sahel, which would affect up to 12 million people, including 1 million children. Our assistance particularly targets the most vulnerable sectors of the population, including children under the age of five, pregnant and nursing women, handicapped people and elderly people.

The issue of population growth, which has been raised, is very dear to my heart. When I travel to the poorest and most vulnerable countries in my capacity as European Commissioner for International Co-operation, Humanitarian Aid and Crisis Response, I find that population growth of 3% or more is the one thing they all have in common. We have to be respectful and culturally sensitive when we consider this issue. We should reflect on how these countries can cope in the absence of support for health services and education for girls. We know that such services help to reduce population growth.

I will tell the committee an interesting story. When I was going to Addis Ababa for a conference on the Horn of Africa crisis, I was told not to talk about population growth because it is not culturally appropriate. My speaking notes referred to issues like climate change and population growth. When I was travelling to the region, I learned something that shook me up. In 1960, my country - Bulgaria - and Kenya were next to each other in the population table. Kenya had 8.1 million people and Bulgaria had 7.9 million people. Today, Kenya has 40 million people and Bulgaria has 7.5 million people. We have a demographic problem of a different nature. When I saw that, I could not imagine what my country would look like if 40 million people were living in it. When I reached the section of my speech at the conference about population growth, on the spur of the moment I decided to mention what I had discovered. I was applauded when I said it was a very serious problem. African leaders contacted me afterwards to thank me for raising this issue and to say it is important for them.

When I went to Niger, where we have programmes that support family planning, I met an imam who told me about a verse in the Koran that says there should be space between the birth of children. I did not know that. I do not know how this applies to Irish twins. The reason for this approach is to allow the children and the mother to be strong and healthy. There is more room than we might think to discuss these issues in a way that is culturally sensitive and respectful. When I attended a dinner with the prime minister and his cabinet, we had the normal slow low-energy dinner discussion until somebody raised the issue of population. All of a sudden, everybody got very animated about the discussion. We have a role to play in this regard, but we must do so respectfully.

As these countries grow, people will definitely have fewer children. However, good health interventions mean children are getting help and life expectancy is increasing. This is a real problem for ecologically fragile countries like Niger, Mauritania, Mali and Ethiopia. It is important. I assure Senator Walsh that we are taking the Horn of Africa equally seriously. I mentioned Somalia when I spoke about the Sahel. I should have referred to the Sahel and the Horn of Africa, particularly Somalia. We are putting together a large programme of resilience in the Horn of Africa. It will help these countries to transform their economies and be in a better position to resist drought in the future.

I do not know much about what Senator Norris said about Roma children in Kosovo. I will come back to him and give him more information.

Deputy Durkan asked about the degree to which we engage in humanitarian work. As the Chairman said, some 40% of humanitarian action is taken by Europeans. The European Commission is responsible for approximately 25% of such action. I can inform Senator Walsh that we spent €1.1 billion on humanitarian activities last year. It is a sizeable sum. Between $8 billion and $14 billion or $15 billion is spent on humanitarian activities by the world's Governments - the public sector - in any given year. It depends on how terrible the year is. Our emergency reserve allows us to increase our expenditure from €800 million to €1.1 billion in a difficult year. As a result, we are predictable and very respected. The work we do prioritises those areas of biggest risk and most significant need.

Senator Walsh asked whether we use the money where it should be used. Europe absolutely does that. Certain Governments, under the pressure of the public, sometimes jump to the humanitarian aid instrument as the one thing they can use even though the problem might be a human rights issue or a political crisis. The current crisis in Syria is a good example. Those of us who are involved on the humanitarian side act when there is clear evidence of a humanitarian emergency. We made an emergency decision on Syria on 3 February last. We did not do that because politicians are talking about Syria but because people are dying or being displaced. Many wounded people cannot get treatment. There is a risk of a refugee crisis in neighbouring countries.

We always stick to a principle of neutrality, impartiality and independence. That is the consensus in Europe. I emphasise that we have to hold onto this consensus. We should not allow Europe to sleepwalk into the politicising of aid. If we were to do so, we would undermine our capacity to help people. Why are we blind to the side of the conflict that relates to ethnicity, religion or skin colour? When we are blind, we have access - we are allowed to go and help. If we take sides, we cannot help. In addition, if we politicise it and if it is perceived to aim for a political gain, then others will do it. The Chinese, the Indians and everybody will do it and the result will be that space for humanity will quickly shrink. I can assure members we take that very seriously. During Ireland's Presidency of the EU, we might find a way to reinforce this commitment to neutrality, impartiality and independence.

On the question of disasters, the emotional response and how we ensure we stay with the problem, this is really difficult. Unfortunately, it is one of the problems on which we all need to join forces to address. When a disaster is reported on the 6 o'clock news, raising money is no problem but how do we raise money so that it is not on the 6 o'clock news because we have taken pre-emptive action? This is where donors like Ireland which have a national experience of a tragedy which made the society more responsive to the needs of others can be very helpful in terms of this resilience topic. During the Irish Presidency of the EU, linking resilience and malnutrition could be a very good theme. I will talk to the Minister of State, Deputy Joe Costello, about it shortly.

I think I responded to the point on budget conditionality and addressed the issues in the Horn of Africa. On the Bosnian issue, I can only speak as somebody who comes from the region and say that stability in this region matters to Europe but I will pass on the question to my colleagues. My take is that we want all the Balkan countries to eventually be part of the European Union. Bulgaria's accession to the European Union put an end to a very real risk, namely, crime, contract killings and the Russian mafia being at the doorstep of Europe. Now that is history; that will never be a risk. We need to expand that type of membership further but today is not the day to talk about expanding the European Union.

I welcome the Commissioner. I am one of the newer members of the committee. Although I am a very dedicated member, I have not had time to read my brief as Monday is a bad day for me. Coincidentally, I was detained by a Bulgarian lady who feels her human rights are affected by her situation in Ireland. As a politician, I must resolve that. We meet people on Mondays at our advice centres.

I cannot help but think we have had this debate on previous occasions. I am here to learn, so the Commissioner should bear with me. I know Africa very well, including the Sahel region about which the Commissioner spoke which includes Mali, Mauritania and Niger. Traditionally, weather conditions there have been difficult. Agencies of the United Nations, such as UNICEF, have appeared before the committee. I am trying to get a handle on the extent of co-ordination between the Commissioner and those agencies as well as the myriad of other excellent NGOs.

There are two types of catastrophe - the type one cannot predict, such as an earthquake, a volcano, etc., and the type one can predict, such as the Sahel region of Africa. A measure of the Commissioner's successes, or our collective successes, is that there are no 6 o'clock news bulletins appealing for aid for children in the region because we have had so much prior notice.

I am questioning the degree of organisation and co-operation that exists between the United Nations and the Commissioner. When the disaster in Haiti occurred, the response was phenomenal. To their eternal shame, governments made very loud financial commitments of aid but from speaking to some of the NGOs, our understanding is that quite a number of those governments have not delivered the aid as promised. Does the Commissioner have a position on EU governments engaging in this type of knee-jerk response to emergencies and then not following through?

I am interested in the issue of conflict, although I may be in the wrong field altogether. There is always turmoil pre-conflict, whether in Uganda, Rwanda or elsewhere, and it disrupts the whole food production system. However, post-conflict, is the Commissioner aware of the need to target not only water provision but school provision once peace has been established? Apparently, one of the missing links is school provision, namely, the building of schools. People respond immediately by providing water, food and things which are life sustaining in the short term. However, real sustainability of these communities is achieved through the provision of schools.

The following question is probably not for the Commissioner but the Irish Government produced a White Paper on Irish Aid and we are debating what the aid content should be. Is Irish Aid a stand-alone and independent agency from the work the Commissioner does? I worry about the multiplicity of agencies. For example, does the OSCE or ODIHR interact with the work the Commissioner carries out? Every nation loves the world stage and we will assume the Presidency of the EU again. However, the Presidency rotates every six months and we will see what we can do with our time. Our Tánaiste is in charge of the OSCE for 12 months. He is a full-time politician in a senior position in our Government and I am sure that is replicated throughout the world. Does the Commissioner believe that formula of short termism, of changing personnel every six months, is the way to progress development?

The Commissioner said nobody anticipated the Kano-Maiduguri conflict in northern Nigeria. As a lay person, I read about the sectarianism of a failed political candidate from the north who happened to be Muslim. That should have set alarms bells ringing because there was already an undercurrent of conflict in that area. We would want to sharpen our antennas if we are failing to detect conflicts such as that in northern Nigeria.

I welcome the Commissioner and thank her for her briefing on Sahel and the documentation on that issue which was very comprehensive. The objective will be to progress her objectives to ensure that region does not appear on the 6 o'clock news. Humanity should always try to head off these situations.

Trócaire asked us to raise the use of humanitarian aid for political, military and other such purposes. I have seen humanitarian aid used by some very powerful countries to influence the politics of a country. What has been the Commissioner's experience of examining that? How does she respond to that because some of those countries are outside her control as they are outside the European Union? One can have a moral influence on it but it has been an area of concern for some time.

I raise the issue of efficiency. We examined some of the organisations here and found them to be efficient. However, people in some international organisations have contributed substantially to aid but that aid was less than efficiently used. It is frequently used on a short-term basis in that they come into an area, deal with a crisis on a short-term basis, spend a good deal of money and then leave. No residual progress is made on after care in terms of the humanitarian crisis that arises.

I have a question on that. Members of this committee were in Ethiopia late last year and while there we travelled to the Tongo refugee camp in the western part of the region which had refugees from the blue Nile region of Sudan who had crossed over into Ethiopia. This relates also to the Horn of Africa and the early warning system we discussed earlier. Does the Commission examine the movement of people in terms of foreseeing an oncoming catastrophe? All the symptoms were present in terms the famine in the Horn of Africa, including the population movement, the rains etc. yet we were not able to deal with it.

Ms Kristalina Georgieva

On the question of co-ordination, we firmly support the United Nations system as the framework for our activities. We support the UN politically, financially and by setting the example of co-ordination. We do not implement projects. We do it with our partners.

In terms of the value of my team for Europe, it is to make sure we prioritise well, that is, that we direct assistance where it is most needed; discipline our partners; set a high standard for performance and financial accountability; and that we in Europe co-ordinate ourselves well. The European contribution, therefore, is well thought through and well co-ordinated. That is what we do.

As I mentioned, the moment we were convinced there was a crisis in Sahel we called on the United Nations to organise a discussion to allow us have a co-ordinated action plan. What is more difficult is bringing in new donors and co-ordinating with them including Turkey, Saudi Arabia, the organisation of Islamic states and its members, including Qatar, because as new donors they have not gone through the decades of donor co-ordination and so forth. It is a case of new donor, old problem and in that regard we have work to do.

I could not agree more with the Deputy that we must trace life-saving measures through development and ensure the development happens. It is not easy to do that. Security is not good in a post-conflict situation. The humanitarians are accustomed to working in low security conditions. The humanitarian profession is one of the most dangerous in the world. People know what they are getting themselves into but it may be early stages for the development professionals. What we are now discussing is the way we can build transitional arrangements to ensure we can move from relief to rehabilitation to development as a continuing process and if it means that humanitarians reach out to perform some of the organisational work development people do, so be it.

We are working on Côte d'Ivoire post-conflict to do what we call partnership for transition. That involves the Government of Côte d'Ivoire, the donors and the humanitarian and development people working together. What we want to see is UNICEF looking after the recovery in terms of schooling, not just by making sure that children go to school but that there is a school to attend. That is not an easy task but it is one we are forced by necessity to do because post-conflict situations are now part of life. We must adjust to operating in this environment. We are very disciplined. Wherever we are we co-ordinate our efforts. We put out information regularly to ensure there is not any duplication.

I acknowledge the question on the way we hold people's feet to the fire, so to speak. They made commitments and therefore they should fulfil them. On the humanitarian side it involves a little moral persuasion. We tell them what the European Union has committed, of which the Commission is one part. By putting out information it puts some pressure on member states to adhere to their commitments but beyond the European Union it is difficult.

I take the point on the way we deal with other donors. Aside from setting up the right example and talking to them the United States has a different organisation from ours. Its humanitarian aid is part of the State Department. In our case it is separate but in the United States it is one. The only way we can deal with that is to talk to each other and make sure that we make the right decisions for the right reasons. When it goes beyond the like-minded, however, it is very difficult. We have fewer difficulties with Turkey and Russia and more difficulties with China. We have fewer difficulties with Brazil and more difficulties with India, although India is not a major donor. In that regard I return to the point on the United Nations co-ordination. We need a strong capacity in the UN because it is the UN that can bring us all together to make the right choices.

On northern Nigeria, one can see it in that country but what people did not see in Chad and Niger was the extremism. They think of northern Nigeria as being more moderate like Niger and Chad and not conducive for the development of extreme behaviour. They were surprised in that regard. They did not expect such a major blow-up in terms of risk. They expected it in other areas but not in those countries. The Deputy is probably correct in that they should have seen it coming but they were a little taken aback.

Population movements is a big issue. We now have 44 million people displaced either internally or as refugees every year. Some 90% of them move from one poor country to another poor country, with all the implications that brings. We are keen to see more attention paid to the problem of refugees and the way we handle it because we are falling behind in terms of the way the refugee issue is evolving. It is mushrooming and yet we still treat it as if it was the refugee problem of the past where people moved for three months and then went home. That is no longer the case.

The refugee cities around the world, including places like Dadaab, contain 300,000 or 400,000 people yet we do not have the instruments to deal with that problem. We see it as a very serious security issue but also an issue in terms of effectiveness and efficiency of devolvement.

On the point of efficiency, we have not yet set a high enough standard for those who do humanitarian and development work to focus on results in the report. Much work needs to be done in this area to make sure there is discipline in what one can bring to the table. Good wishes are not good enough if we want to get value for taxpayers' money.

I welcome the Commissioner. I was in the RTE studio this morning when the Commissioner was speaking and they were very impressed with her. There was much reaction to her because she spoke so well about her job and her ambitions for the future. I want to ask some philosophical questions, which she might find interesting. Is violence the greatest threat to world health, world food and displacement? Given how we read it in the West, I see it as having a greater effect than the major natural disasters.

What is the greatest lesson the Commissioner has learned in her travels? She has travelled the world in this job. What was the greater surprise or shock? What did she find out in her travels that she did not know before? Is there something she would do differently if she was allowed to? It seems that so much of culture, life and religion can choke progress. It is people's right but it is something that can choke progress that the Commissioner may be trying to bring about. These are philosophical questions but are relevant to the Commissioner's aims and objectives and where Ireland might sit during the EU Presidency.

I would add a point about the operation of financial institutions gambling in favour of famine in order to create it and increase their profits.

I can leave it for another time but I would like to ask the Commissioner a question. She was a director of the World Bank. Has she any advice for us in Ireland about humanitarian aid to people left with banks that have no idea how people in this country live and that have operated with a philosophy and breadth of greed for so long that we have just accepted it?

Senator, we will stick to our current remit.

It was just an aside, because the Commissioner has an understanding of how money works, which is extremely important.

While the Commissioner's background is very important, her job is in humanitarian aid and we will leave domestic politics to another day.

Ms Kristalina Georgieva

I am very worried about the availability of arms. In any location, the softer the governance, the more loose weapons are in the hands of people, some of whom know nothing but fighting. In humanitarian action it is not good enough to save lives, we must also think of the social resilience and the resilience to nature. It may not be our job to do but it is our mandate to advocate against arms.

What shocked me the most in my job as Commissioner is how fragile the planet is. The picture most profoundly embedded in my mind is from Japan. The country best prepared to face natural calamities was brought to its knees. They are resilient people but we cannot kid ourselves that the problem of resilience is a problem for poor countries. It is a problem for all of us and I worry deeply that we are not mentally prepared to have the risk management mindset needed for the world of tomorrow.

I did not realise how far apart are the humanitarian and development worlds. I was previously in the development world and now I am in the humanitarian world and I realise it is paramount to build bridges across the two worlds. We cannot resolve problems separately and we can only join forces and act together. The positive aspect of my experiences is that people are so dignified in the face of disaster and the best in people comes to the fore when they are in their most difficult moments.

As regards the crisis in Europe, we should buckle up and together we can make it through and come out stronger. I really believe this is possible but for that to happen, we must find a way to bring the Union together, including the countries that do not have a crisis. It was a major eye-opener to go to Munich and to realise that the problem Chancellor Merkel has is to sell a crisis to people who have no crisis. Bringing us together is the moment of truth for politicians and parliamentarians to take the high road to a strong Union that delivers for citizens.

The Commissioner has another meeting with the Minister of State, Deputy Costello, so I will not detain her any longer. I thank her for the insight into the humanitarian situation from the job of Commissioner and from her personal view. We look forward to meeting her again and we wish her every success. I thank her for updating members on the work, priorities and challenges, some of which are unpredictable. We are very supportive of the Commissioner's work and we believe it is important that the European Community Humanitarian Office continues to deliver an impartial humanitarian assistance and to advocate the principal humanitarian action, which will be very much a part of Ireland's Presidency in the first half of 2013.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.50 p.m. and adjourned at 3.55 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 28 February 2012.
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