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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN debate -
Tuesday, 22 Jul 2008

Cardiovascular Screening: Discussion.

We will now proceed with our meeting with representatives from the sudden cardiac death in the young support group. I welcome Ms Mary Vasseghi, chairperson of the support group and the other members of her deputation. We thank them for coming and look forward to hearing their presentation.

Before we begin I wish to draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this privilege does not extend to witnesses. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members may ask questions after the briefing session. I advise members to switch off mobile phones.

Ms Mary Vasseghi

I thank the committee for the invitation to attend this meeting and for giving us the opportunity to speak to members. My presentation will be brief and additional information packs will be provided to members.

Dr. Joseph Galvin, consultant cardiologist in the Mater hospital, has accompanied us. Ms Maureen Kelly, Ms Ann Simpson, Ms Monica Martin and myself have all lost children to sudden cardiac death within the past few years. Mr. Ryan O'Flaherty is a schoolboy who took part in the young social innovators scheme and did a school project on the subject, a summary of which is included for members.

I ask members to look around and make a guess as to whose heart is working properly and whose is not. Can one really tell from outside? On their way home later today I ask members to look at the young people around them and try to guess whether their hearts are all right. The second question for members to ask is whether they would know what to do if the person beside them had a heart attack or a sudden cardiac arrest and perhaps, more important, would the person beside them know how to save a life because in a few moments I will explain how important that is. These are the two main reasons we are here today.

I will give a brief explanation of sudden cardiac death. The heart stops without any warning - this is also known as sudden cardiac arrest. Most cases are related to undetected heart problems. It is important to note these can be inherited or acquired. It happens in all age groups, both adults and children, and it can happen anywhere, any time. It is not always associated with sport and physical effort. Athletes and non-athletes are at risk. It can occur in active and apparently healthy people and it can happen to people who have had no symptoms of heart disease. Most of the conditions which cause sudden cardiac death can be treated. This is the reason I asked if members would know what to do for the person beside them because death occurs within three minutes of the heart stopping. Time is critical and intervention must be immediate. This means immediate CPR and use of a defibrillator - AED - as soon as possible. The only thing that will restore heart rhythm is the AED, the automated external defibrillator. The CPR will help sustain life until such time as the defibrillator is used. If one just rings 999 and waits for the ambulance to arrive, it will be too late because the person will be dead.

Approximately 5,000 people die every year in Ireland when their heart stops. This is 18 people a day and one to two people per week will be under the age of 35. A total of 70% of these deaths and these cardiac arrests occur outside hospital. If one's heart stops today, one has a 1% chance of survival.

Two years ago we came before the committee with hopes that once our message was listened to at Government level, progress would be made, but little has changed. We find that situation unacceptable because these deaths are traumatic, unexpected and cause immeasurable and considerably underestimated devastation to families, communities and society. The horrific reality and tragedy is that most conditions which cause sudden cardiac death are treatable and, therefore, all of this is preventable.

We are sad, disappointed and frustrated. Those who are working tirelessly in the public service are, I am told, exasperated and demoralised, because when sudden cardiac death occurs today, there is still no pathway to information on support. It is vital to have this because relatives of the victims could also be at risk if the condition is inherited. The families leave the hospital with no information about what has happened, why it occurred and what to do next. They do not know where to go. General practitioners are not always knowledgeable about sudden cardiac death. Then, the diagnosis of the cause of death following autopsy can be difficult to ascertain and sometimes it is inconclusive or erroneous and second opinions are often sought from England. There is no specialised cardiac pathologist in Ireland and one is desperately needed.

There is often a long delay in receiving autopsy results, which is often described by families as "hell on earth". I can confirm this from my own experience. Some of the autopsy results could be presented to families much earlier. We need to put a proper process in place for toxicology. Reports should be quickly available so that they can be put with the autopsy data and the results should be fed through, even on a preliminary basis, to the GPs and the families concerned. Waiting for months to find out what happened to one's child when he or she appeared to be all right on the morning of his or her death is just not acceptable.

There has been a national approach to this and Ireland is the only country in the world which has taken a top-down approach to tackling the issue. The Government commissioned a task force and in 2006 it made 78 recommendations in a report called Reducing the Risk: A Strategic Approach. However, the implementation of these recommendations is not progressing because there is not much joined up thinking; much hinges on a mere €800,000 for the filling of 11 approved HSE posts. These were budgeted for and approved, the posts were about to be advertised and people knew these jobs were going to be filled.

There is also the cardiac first responder programme, which is to be rolled out nationally, involving CPR and defibrillators to ensure a proper co-ordinated approach. It is not happening, although everything is in place for this to go ahead. The booklet, The Cardiac First Responder, cannot be distributed because we do not have the money. Committee members have in their pack the first progress report of where all the recommendations are at, and they are slow. It is not for me to decide whom the committee should ask to come before it, but there are certain barriers which could be broken down and it might be worth speaking to some of the people who are closely involved in that regard.

Only two centres of excellence in the country are screening families affected by sudden cardiac death. Both of these are in Dublin and are being funded privately. Dr. Joseph Galvin works in Heart House and it is largely due to him that this programme started. It opened in 2007 and screens affected families. The centre for cardiac risk in younger persons is based at Tallaght and also opened in 2007. Both of these institutions have submitted reports which can also be found in the members' pack. However, there is no HSE funding for this area. I know HSE funding has to go elsewhere, but it is worth pointing out that this entire initiative is being funded privately. We need other centres of excellence outside Dublin and, when possible, HSE assistance at all centres.

The task force did not recommend population screening. In the case of screening for breast cancer and prostate cancer, for example, one knows exactly what one is looking for and there is a set treatment. It is more difficult to screen for the risk of sudden cardiac death. However, heart checks should and must be done because most of the conditions are diagnosable and treatable. My colleague, Dr. Joseph Galvin, will speak presently about a conference he will attend later this year.

We have no structure in place to check young people's hearts. This is a serious problem which must be addressed urgently by way of an organised and co-ordinated approach. We are extremely concerned that private companies may seize the opportunity presented by the demand that exists and that there may not be adequate standards and protocols. There must be a co-ordinated top-down approach.

The European Society of Cardiology has recommended a common European protocol for pre-participation screening of athletes. This endorses the International Olympic Committee protocol which is in place since 2004. In Italy, sudden cardiac deaths have been reduced by 89% as a result of the screening process that has been in place for athletes for the last 25 years. However, we must bear in mind that it is not just athletes who are at risk. It is estimated that only some 15% of sudden cardiac deaths occur in athletes.

Ireland was the first country to impose a levy on plastic carrier bags and to impose a wide-ranging ban on smoking in public places. There is no reason that we cannot become the first heart-safe country in the world. We already have two centres for screening affected families. It will not require much to ensure more appropriate heart checks for young people who request them. Defibrillators are selling like hot cakes. There has been little or no cost for the Government because people are willing to pay for heart checks and the groups concerned are raising funding to provide automated external defibrillators. We have a low population and close community networks. The provision of defibrillators should be made mandatory in workplaces and schools throughout the State. An issue to examine is the VAT rate of 21% on these devices. I understand this is an issue for the EU, but the Government must lobby to reduce it.

We have asked the Department of Education and Science to introduce basic life support training into the school curriculum for the 27,000 transition year students and to support our initiative to provide CPR kits to these pupils. The kits, which cost €25 each, are part of a self-learn programme and include a DVD, booklet, instructions on how to perform CPR and a blow-up dummy called CPR Annie. I understand Dunnes Stores are providing some funding towards this initiative. Other classes will seek to participate once they see how easy it is for transition year students.

The joint committee must play the role of advocate by leading and co-ordinating intergovernmental actions, whether legislative, fiscal or resource changes, and ensuring sustained Government and HSE commitment to the implementation of the task force recommendations. Members must ensure the necessary structures are in place and that CPR programmes and defibrillators are provided in local schools and workplaces. They must facilitate discussion and communication in their local areas. We ask the committee to work to ensure the 11 HSE posts are in place, that action is taken to reduce the rate of VAT on defibrillators and that toxicology services are provided sooner. We need a preliminary report and backing for our proposals for a transition year self-learn programme. Members are in a position of power and influence and their assistance is vital.

Dr. Joseph Galvin

It is difficult to add to Ms Vasseghi's comprehensive review of the subject. One of the several difficulties in this area is the lack of hard data. Up to now, there have been no definitive data on the total number of sudden cardiac deaths or the number of such deaths in those less than 35 years. Some preliminary data are emerging but our best estimate is that there are some 4,500 to 5,000 cases of sudden cardiac arrest each year, of which only some 45 or 50 victims will survive.

The survival rate in Ireland is at approximately 1%. Were we to reach the levels that obtain in Seattle, where survival rates are up to 30% or even were we to get to 10%, which would mean 400 fewer deaths every year, it would be a phenomenal achievement. Simply increasing survival rates from 1% to 10% would save a greater number than all the lives lost on the roads each year.

It turns out this is not easy to do and entails comprehensive improvements in cardiac arrest first responders, as well as getting defibrillators to people quickly. The plan drawn up as part of the strategy is excellent. Money has been approved, put aside and given within the HSE to create 11 first responder trainers and co-ordinators. They will bring together the many communities throughout the country who have trained themselves and purchased automatic external defibrillators, AEDs, and co-ordinate them with the ambulance services in order that when a cardiac arrest occurs in, for example, Crossmolina, the local team is activated while the ambulance makes its way from the dispatch centre. This must be done through the ambulance dispatch centre. While so doing is not expensive and the money has been made available, unfortunately, appointments cannot be made to these positions because of the recruitment ceiling within the HSE. It will take a high level decision to go ahead and do that. It will make a huge difference in the long term.

Mr. Ryan O’Flaherty

As a young person, I look at this issue and other matters on the news. However, many others have not done so. Most of the deaths are preventable. While I undertook a project on this subject as part of my transition year, I only had encountered the topic that year. I now am highly passionate about it and wish to see change in this regard. Such change must happen, which is the reason I am at this meeting. I wish to see such change take place now, for my friends rather than for my kids.

I thank the witnesses. We will turn to the members and I call Deputy Reilly first.

I welcome the group and thank Dr. Joseph Galvin for mentioning Crossmolina, which was the birthplace of my father. One could talk about many issues in this regard. To go about this properly, we must do something for which I have called in the past and that the Government also has mentioned in its programme. I have referred to it as a national body test, NBT, and this could form part of it. It comes down to an age-appropriate annual check-up. Perhaps such a check-up could be bi-annual, every three years or whatever for certain age groups. Once an electrocardiogram, ECG, has been carried out as part of such screening, how often would Dr. Galvin consider it necessary to repeat it? Would five-year intervals be acceptable for the younger age groups such as the 35 year olds?

However, members can make some recommendations. Mr. Ryan O'Flaherty made a good point when he expressed his wish to see this take place soon, rather than at some time in the distant future. Undertaking proper screenings in which everyone is involved will take time. While it may not necessarily take decades, it will take time. Certain steps can be taken quickly that would give a clear signal of intent. An obvious step is the removal of VAT on AEDs, which are expensive pieces of equipment. In the overall scheme of things, however, AEDs are not expensive items of equipment and there should be one on every airliner. I recall a discussion in a school in which initially, the authorities did not wish to acquire an AED. Ultimately, however, having realised and understood their value to the authorities and the children, the school got two. Moreover, many doctors' surgeries now have them.

I support virtually every point made. Perhaps there should be some tighter recommendations pertaining to numbers working in the workplace that would require an AED. One should consider the direction modern planning has taken in respect of blocks of buildings and industrial estates. What number of AEDs would be sufficient in a big industrial estate? Should a small operator working in a remote area with seven employees have an AED? The criteria must be tightened up. The proposal to introduce cardiopulmonary resuscitation, CPR, in transition year is a "no-brainer" as is the provision of information packs. I cannot envisage a reason this would not be done. We would create a major resource of trained and skilled people in our communities each year. Obviously, there would have to be courses to maintain this because people get rusty.

How frequently is it necessary to do an ECG for the younger age group? Will the witness also comment on the issue of the numbers in a workplace she would like to see have an AED?

I welcome the group. Four years ago we set up the Heartsafe programme in Clonmel, County Tipperary and achieved Heartsafe status for the town earlier this year. We invited Mr. Michael O'Shea to Clonmel and we raised funds by inviting all businesses in the town to a huge night in a hotel. On the night we received commitments for 15 AEDs. We decided on the locations, after consultation, and then trained ten people for each AED. We are now in the process of retraining these people to keep them upskilled. This was done with the American Heart Foundation and some innovation was applied with regard to VAT.

Every four minutes, an AED is sited in the centre of Clonmel. Businesses such as barbers and hotels, churches and Garda stations, despite some difficulty, and transition year students are all involved in the programme. That is very empowering, particularly for those who faced personal tragedies and who realise, probably for the first time, what an awful thing it is to have something happen that one might have prevented. Having knowledge of the AED, the simplicity of the machine and the feeling that they might make that difference is immense to people. It gives people amazing control over what can be done.

I am interested in Dr. Galvin's opinion on a good age for screening young people. When Clonmel, with a population of 18,000 to 20,000 can achieve Heartsafe status in a short period of four years, I know it is possible to be innovative in how our health services are used for screening. Nurses carry out ECGs all the time and can recognise what is normal and refer abnormalities. This is a good programme in which to be involved whereby nurses working in a specialist centre can interact with young people in the community. We work with young people and Ryan O'Flaherty is an example of this. This is something that fired his imagination. Working with young people is immensely important because it will make a difference to people's lives. That is positive.

We have a model that has worked for us. We need to communicate what is going on in the country and what we have done. Great credit goes to Ms Patricia Matthews, the chairperson who set this up, Dr. Ralse, Paul Cremins and others who got together and saw the need for this. I will be killed for not mentioning some names. This has been positive for Clonmel. May was heart awareness month and many people retrained. This retraining is undertaken in conjunction with the Red Cross, the HSE and the hospitals. There is an ongoing programme, irrespective of people's level of knowledge, history or background. The simplicity of the machine is such that one can just press the button and that is the beauty of it. I am interested in how and where a programme could be put in place whereby nurses would carry out ECGs and refer abnormalities to specialists in the area. We have many nurse specialists. I extend my sympathies to those who suffered the enormous loss. It is positive to examine what we can do to make a difference.

I extend a warm welcome to the visitors. I have personal experience in that I lost my father in the late 1980s following a massive heart attack. We were very young and I know the trauma we suffered at the time. He was not in the 35 year old age group and this does not necessarily apply but it does not diminish the traumatic effect and I understand what the delegation is talking about.

The first time I ever heard of sudden cardiac death was when the death of Cormac McAnallen was broadcast on the airwaves. Because we knew him from the sporting world it took on a whole new meaning. As young people became victims we began to take stock of the need for them to be checked out. I agree with Deputy Reilly's point on the need for age-appropriate medical tests. We have the NCT test for cars. Why should we not have age-appropriate medical tests so deficiencies or conditions can be detected and treated? I feel very strongly about this as I have young children.

The question was asked as to whether we knew the level at which the heart of the person next to one is working. We do not. When I was in school, and that is not today nor yesterday, I did first aid courses and CPR but I could not administer it now. We need to constantly upskill and refresh ourselves. I salute the many clubs and places such as those mentioned by Senator Prendergast that have defibrillators and have trained communities to use them. It means that something can be done during the vital time prior to the ambulance arriving. People feel they know what they are doing.

I support the introduction of CPR into the transition year programme. Transition year provides great scope and we have discussed teaching people how to drive and many other courses and modules which could be included. Some schools already have a CPR module in place. The school where I worked did first aid and CPR courses and the value and learning experience for the young people are second to none. Nothing beats hands-on practical experience with trained people who know what they are teaching.

I also have strong feelings about the notification of autopsy results. Where people have suffered a trauma and tragedy of this proportion, the last thing they want is delay and hassle in getting the results they need and to which they are entitled. If we can do anything on this I will be extremely supportive. Families have suffered enough and this should not be added to by a delay in providing the results.

I would like to be associated with the welcome extended to the group. I was interested to hear Ms Vasseghi mention Tallaght. I always pick up when I hear Tallaght and I have contact with the programme there. Often, I remind myself that when I had my heart attack out of the blue nine years ago it was in Tallaght, thank God. It was at a Frances Black concert, funny enough. I do not throw it around my mind every day but one does not forget having a heart attack. I hope no one here has the experience. I remember every single minute of the experience. One wonders about going from being normal to being under a different type of pressure. Thank God, in my case I recovered. I had surgery across the Liffey in the Mater, Dr. Galvin will be glad to know, and the people there were very good to me.

I often say that I bring to my politics my own experience and I am happy to be an advocate. I regularly speak about my illness and have never been afraid to do so, which means that it has never bothered me politically. When I was seeking a nomination to run for election, some people wondered if I would last the term. One gets on with one's life but uses one's illness as a positive experience. I certainly have done that and am happy to support the work that is going on, especially in Tallaght Hospital. Dr. David Mulcahy and Professor Ian Graham treated me at the hospital. I was at the launch of that particular programme and believe it is important to support them in every way.

I wish to refer to what other members said about young people. I remember discussing my illness with my family. I have three sons, one of whom was in his teens at the time. I was struck by the fact that they believed that nothing would happen to them for many years and that would be a normal reaction among young people. They see heart disease and problems of that nature as issues for older people. However, as we have been reminded today, that is not always the case. It is good during a meeting like this to reflect on such issues.

I am disappointed the Chairman has had to remind us that not a great deal of progress has been made in this area. Earlier in this meeting we were applauded by the polio group who said that they were very happy that following their previous appearance before the committee, real progress was made on issues of concern to them. That is the challenge for us now and it is important we rise to that challenge. I am often reminded of people of my mother's generation who have died. Dr. Mulcahy told me that had my mother been born in my generation she would still be alive and would be looking forward to living to a grand old age. That is the challenge and people such as Deputy Reilly and others understand these issues well from a medical perspective. I hope the Chairman will arrange for us to have a discussion on these issues in private session to determine how we might make progress on them. In that context, I hope that when the witnesses appear before this committee again in the future, they will not say that nothing has happened in the interim.

I welcome the group and, like others, I have had first-hand experience of this issue. In south Kilkenny, two young hurlers, who were brothers, died within two years of one another. Perhaps their problem was hereditary.

The group came to the Houses of the Oireachtas two years ago and made a presentation but according to the witnesses today, nothing has happened since. How do we move the issue forward and who takes responsibility? Is it the Health Service Executive, this committee or the Department which must drive this forward? Since sudden cardiac arrest can occur with no warning, the availability of automatic external defibrillators is essential. Who is responsible for ensuring such equipment is in place in sports clubs and other facilities? We know what the problem is; the issue is finding the solution.

I wish to see action and would like to know how we, as a committee, can be of assistance. The issue may be money, which is scarce at the moment. We need action now, not words.

We must acknowledge that much work has been done. Senator Prendergast spoke about Clonmel but in parishes, villages and towns throughout the country, groups have come together to raise funds to put defibrillators in place and to train people to use them. In addressing the questions raised by members, I ask the witnesses also to give the committee a sense of what is best practice internationally in terms of screening. The task force referred to by the witnesses apparently did not recommend that a national screening programme be undertaken in this country.

Dr. Joseph Galvin

Many different issues have been raised and I propose the tackle the last one first. The European Society of Cardiology has recommended that those participating in sports undergo a form of assessment. However, there is some controversy surrounding the best way to do that. In the United States, it is done by asking certain questions and performing a physical examination, but not carrying out an ECG. In Italy it has been shown fairly conclusively that by performing an ECG, people with abnormalities can be identified. A problem arises, however, in that some people who are never going to die suddenly will have abnormal ECGs. We could end up labelling people or raising concerns with them even though they will not encounter subsequent problems. This issue affects a small number of people, which in the Italian experience amounts to 2.5%. We are looking for a condition which occurs in approximately one in 50,000 young people, so we have to be careful as we proceed. It is critical that whoever administers the test has the best available expertise.

In regard to nurses administering ECGs, that will have to be considered when large numbers are tested but most people would agree on the need for a national centre of excellence to which people with abnormal preliminary tests can be referred. I am unsure how the development at the National Sports Campus in Abbotstown is proceeding but I hope it will include a medical component. It would be a logical location for a medical centre of excellence.

Deputy Reilly asked how big a place should be before a defibrillator is installed in it. In the US, it is recommended that any business with 50 or more employees should have a device. At the same time, however, we have to be sensible. If one's business happens to be located next door to an ambulance dispatch centre, installing a defibrillator is not a priority. If, on the other hand, one lives 100 miles from the nearest dispatch centre, immediate access to an AED is critical.

The biggest beneficiaries of defibrillators are small communities which are distant from ambulance dispatch centres. Rather than deciding which business or shop should have an AED, it is important the town as a whole has a community-based response. The 11 community first responder co-ordinators, whose posts have been approved and funded by the Health Service Executive, are critical to this. Unfortunately, these posts cannot be filled because of the present recruitment ceiling.

Deputy Aylward asked where the obstacles have arisen. He is clearly a person who likes to solve problems. The purchase of AEDs is not at issue because communities such as Clonmel have not had a problem in raising the necessary funds. A large number of communities have purchased AEDs and some have proceeded to train people in their use but because they are not linked into the emergency medical services, someone living one street away from a defibrillator could have a cardiac arrest and still have to wait 45 minutes for an ambulance. At that point, an undertaker would be more appropriate. It is a matter of linking the elements together, in which regard the community first responder trainers are critical.

Ms Mary Vasseghi

A question was asked about the international situation. Every child in France has to be given an annual check-up before he or she is allowed to take physical education in school. A health book has been developed which sets out age-appropriate tests, including the US suggestion on taking pulse rates and blood pressure in different places. In some towns, defibrillators are required in new buildings.

In terms of co-ordinating nurses working in the community, of whom I am one, we send off PKUs and could also send ECGs. All we need is a centre of excellence. We also could use tele-medicine but we are not taking advantage of today's technology. We have to think about this because it is very easy to e-mail information.

A question was asked about screening in the United States, where ECGs are being included as part of medicals carried out in schools. More and more are being carried out by doctors and cardiologists, although it does not happen on a national level. Even though the official recommendations do not include ECGs, approximately 10% of people are picked up in this way and filtered along the appropriate pathways.

I am a non-medical person but Ms Vasseghi says autopsies can be inaccurate, erroneous or lead to difficulties in arriving at a conclusion. Is the same true of a medical assessment carried out on an individual before the condition is detected?

Dr. Joseph Galvin

Yes. As with any test, there are problems with overdiagnosis and underdiagnosis. Abnormalities can show up in ECGs and other cardiac tests such as echocardiograms which may represent an anatomic variant or a mild form of disease that may not result in sudden cardiac death. Unfortunately, given the level of the science at this stage, we are unable to determine who from the 1.5% of the population with abnormalities is in danger. All are generally advised not to participate in sports but we appreciate that not all of them will die suddenly, even if they continue to play sports.

The problem of underdiagnosis also arises. Even in the absence of congenital or long-standing abnormalities of the heart, people who have a full cardiac assessment today can go out next weekend and contract a viral flu infection called myocarditis which can lead to fatal arhythmia. Therefore, the tests are not foolproof. That is why the first responder programmes are critical. The Italians have achieved a lot through ECG testing of their athletes and their screening programme has essentially eliminated deaths from the commonest form of cardiomyopathy, a heart muscle problem.

Nothing is foolproof. A neighbour of mine went into hospital with a pain in his heart and died as he got into his car after leaving the hospital, having just had an ECG. I know that only applies to a small percentage but just because a person has an ECG it does not mean he or she will not die following sudden cardiac arrest.

Dr. Joseph Galvin

Absolutely.

Ms Monica Martin

One of the worst things about this syndrome is the fact that, in many cases, families are left without a diagnosis. My son's heart was normal and had to be sent to England because I asked for a second opinion on the autopsy. It had originally been performed at St. James's Hospital but I asked the hospital to send the heart to Dr. Mary Sheppard. This shows that we need an expert cardiopathologist. She said my son's heart was normal and that he had died from sudden adult death syndrome, which means as a family we have no answers. He had something genetic, an electrical problem with his heart similar to what Cormac MacAnallen suffered from. However, there are lots of families in that situation. My son played rugby but his condition would not have been picked up by the questionnaire. In fact, of the four of us present the condition of three of our sons would not have been picked up because it was not in the family. Only now do we think there may be a genetic reason for the condition but there had been no instance of young sudden death in my family. Therefore, my son would have answered no to all of the questions, as would the sons of Ms Vasseghi and Ms Kelly. The questionnaires are not the answer because they will not prevent other children from dropping dead.

Ms Maureen Kelly

I was very pleased with the comments of Deputy Conlon. With regard to the pathologist report, it is not just the emotional devastation which is significant and horrendous, although every day is like a year while a person waits to find out what killed his or her child. Other family members would be at risk and pathologists must speed up the reports, especially those on toxicology, and give results because of this.

Our family will be eternally grateful to Dr. Joseph Galvin because he has saved my daughter's life. My son, Darragh, was 21 when he died suddenly as a student in Dundalk. He collapsed in his student accommodation. At that stage there were no family screening centres in this country and we went to London to see Professor Bill McKenna in the Heart Hospital. He screened the children's father, me and one sister who had demonstrated some symptoms as she fainted a couple of times.

It was almost three years later when we made contact with Dr. Galvin in Blanchardstown. We had to wait in a crowded cardiac waiting room where there were many elderly people, which really was not very pleasant for my three young daughters. I am delighted that Heart House and the screening centre in Tallaght are open, which are very pleasant facilities where families can be screened together by themselves.

My daughter was found to have a condition called long QT syndrome and Dr. Galvin has implanted her with an ICD, which six months later shocked her in her sleep. We know for a fact that she has been saved through family screening. That is the reason it is vital we have these centres.

I am a lay person but what is the treatment for a person such as the witness's daughter?

Dr. Joseph Galvin

When we find someone is at high risk - we see family members through family screening clinics - we will use an implantable cardiac defibrillator as opposed to an automatic external one. The implantable defibrillator is very similar to a pacemaker. It goes in under the skin and is about half the size of a chewing gum packet. It is connected with a lead passed down through the veins to the heart. It can charge off a 3 V battery up to about 750 V in about five seconds to shock the heart back to normal. These are a phenomenal development which have saved many lives in this country.

That is really impressive.

How much do they cost? Are they expensive?

Dr. Joseph Galvin

They are expensive.

How much are they?

Dr. Joseph Galvin

The baseline model costs between €10,000 and €15,000. We have been very fortunate in this country through the far-sightedness of the Health Service Executive not to restrict funding on implantable cardiac defibrillators. There should be praise where it is due and it has done a good job.

Is everyone happy they have said what they wished to?

Dr. Joseph Galvin

I have one last brief point, which has not been made completely clear, relating to the delay in informing families about post mortem results. This result is essentially known within a couple of days of the death, with the post mortem being done. All toxicology blood tests are repeated through the State Laboratory, so when the initial toxicology result is completely normal, the pathologist and coroner are not allowed to inform the family whether everything looks normal or whether there is an abnormality. They must wait for the final toxicology results through the State Laboratory, and there is an approximate six-month delay on a test which should take approximately six hours.

That is terrible.

We will have a brief chat among ourselves in private session when the witnesses leave, and that is one of the issues we will take up. I thank the delegation for its presentation and the work is clearly a life-saving endeavour. If we are to have any meaning at all, we must find some way to assist the work.

We certainly will do that.

Why is there a six-month delay? Is it down to logistics?

Dr. Joseph Galvin

I cannot explain it.

I am not apportioning blame but I wonder if it is a systems failure.

Dr. Joseph Galvin

It seems to be a work practice systems failure.

Perhaps we can explore that ourselves.

What is the average cost of an AED?

Dr. Joseph Galvin

About €2,000 - anywhere between €1,500 and €2,500.

It is about €1,400 in Clonmel. We can get good deals if we buy a lot.

Mr. Ryan O’Flaherty

I would like to point out that it is easy to raise money. In school we raised €3,500, and that was just schoolchildren. It is easy. The money is nothing.

I will hire Mr. O'Flaherty for my election campaigns.

I hope we will be able to engage with the representatives again in the not too distant future. We thank them for their presentation and congratulate them on the work they are doing. We acknowledge the trauma that many of them have experienced in their own lives. We will consider what can be done to assist. We will engage with the HSE, the Department of Health and Children and whatever other agencies are appropriate in the circumstances, and pass the information back to the representatives.

The joint committee went into private session at 5.16 p.m. and adjourned at 5.26 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 29 July 2008.
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