Skip to main content
Normal View

JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN (Sub-Committee on the High Level of Suicide in Ireland) debate -
Wednesday, 12 Nov 2008

Reach Out 2005-2014: Discussion.

I welcome Dr. Siobhán Barry, director of Cluain Mhuire Services and consultant to the committee. From the Irish Association of Suicidology, I welcome its secretary, Dr. John Connolly, its outgoing chairman, Professor Michael Fitzgerald, and its vice chairman, Dr. Justin Brophy.

Before we begin, I draw attention to the fact that members have absolute privilege whereas the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Members may ask questions after the briefing and I ask that all mobile telephones be switched off. I invite Dr. Connolly to make his presentation.

Dr. John Connolly

I thank the Chairman.

I should declare an interest, as I am president and a founder of the Irish Association of Suicidology.

Dr. John Connolly

We thank the Chairman for his services.

I compliment the Chairman, as I am glad he told us.

Dr. John Connolly

I compliment him for his services to suicide prevention at a time when it was in the dark ages. He has brought it forward a great deal, to which we pay homage.

I wish to introduce Dr. Brophy, who has been elected the first president of the Irish College of Psychiatrists. It is a singular honour for someone who has been a unifying force in the field of psychiatry. We expect great things of him.

Our submission will be brief. We have considerable fears concerning the path that suicide prevention might take in coming years, given the recession. I will not say much about the Irish Association of Suicidology because I have supplied leaflets outlining our history, aims and objectives, which will be familiar to some members. There is no need to go into the details of statistics on suicide and suicidal behaviour beyond stating that suicide remains a major problem. The statistics are available from the Central Statistics Office and the excellent annual reports of the National Office for Suicide Prevention. Suicide is a significant tragedy and, too often, the impact of these unnecessary deaths on families and communities is obscured by statistics.

We are concerned about the effects of the recession, the consequent reduction in spending in all sectors of the public service and how our community and the marginalised in society who are at high risk of suicide will be affected. From research, we know that suicide rates tend to increase during recessions or times of major societal change. This has been proven to be the case during economic recessions and depressions in most countries and has been well recognised since the era of Émile Durkheim, who published his book Suicide in 1897.

It is sad that the proposals in the national suicide strategy, Reach Out, and the report of the Joint Committee on Health and Children have not been implemented in full. They need more attention and to be put on the centre stage of the political arena. Funding for suicide prevention must be ring-fenced. Otherwise, we will lose many people. We owe it to the future of our nation to avoid unnecessary deaths as far as possible.

Suicide is a multifaceted phenomenon and needs a multifaceted and complex multidisciplinary approach. It is difficult to measure the outcomes and success of suicide prevention programmes. Where they are successful, it is difficult to determine which elements are of particular importance and can be scientifically proven. A major reason for the failure of such programmes in some countries was the lack of ring-fenced ongoing funding for their duration. We hope the sub-committee will not allow the like to occur in this country.

The important elements and those with some basis in scientific research are the treatment of mental disorders, the training of primary health care personnel, help lines and crisis centres, school-based suicide prevention programmes, the restriction of access to means of suicide, improving the media's portrayal of suicide and the reduction of alcohol consumption, given the association of consumption with suicide rates in most countries. The next paragraphs of our presentation elaborate on these elements.

Research in Western countries shows that 65% to 90% of people who die by suicide have a mental illness at the time of death. It is a major worry that there are cutbacks in services for the mentally ill and that A Vision for Change has not been implemented in full. We are critical of the failure to provide for the proposed expansion of services for children and adolescents. Ireland has the fifth highest suicide rate among our European partners in the 15-24 year old age group. We hope members will strive to avoid any deterioration in funding for mental health services and allow, even in times of recession, an element that may help to secure more innovation and implement the proposals in A Vision for Change.

Training of primary care personnel is of the utmost importance, an assertion that is scientifically based. We need a major injection of funds to apply to all personnel on the front line. We referred to helplines in crisis centres. Scientific work shows that these are successful and need proper funding. In introducing something like a helpline we must ensure it is adequately staffed by personnel with adequate training and that there is proper monitoring of standards.

School prevention programmes are very important. With cutbacks in education funding and increases in class sizes, we worry that many of these measures will go by the board. It is a major worry. Schools are the ideal place in which to find children at risk of suicide. They also play an important role in preparing people for life after school, into adulthood, teaching self-esteem and problem solving skills that teach them to deal with the problems they will encounter as adults. Investment in education is an investment in the future and must be protected.

The restriction of means of suicide is an important plank in suicide prevention protocols or strategies, bearing in mind that it produces a major result where the means are commonly used and easily restricted, as happened with the detoxification of coal gas in the United Kingdom in 1952. The most common means of suicide in Ireland are drowning and hanging which are difficult to restrict. We must work on the issue and restrict access to firearms and over-the-counter medications such as paracetamol. We have laws but they must be re-examined. When such laws are first introduced, they can be successful but after a while, the effect of the restriction on the size of packages of paracetamol in retail outlets tends to diminish. There is a need to address the issue to assess how the law is applied and to ensure staff are trained.

We are concerned about improving the media portrayal of suicide and glad there will be action on the matter in the near future. This applies to news reports, drama and every aspect of the media. Some 3% to 5% of suicides are copycat suicides, mostly resulting from reporting by the media, although not always. While the overall figure is 3% to 5%, among adolescents the figure is up to 15%. This also applies to the elderly, an important group of at-risk persons.

The pattern of drinking in this country, binge drinking, is particularly associated with suicide. This must be examined to ensure we educate people to have a sane attitude to alcohol. The most important aspect in dealing with alcohol addiction and its relationship with suicide is abolishing the advertising of alcohol as far as possible. We could discuss at length other issues that need adequate funding such as the reduction of stigma associated with mental illness and suicide, as well as the social causes of suicide. We must establish equal access to quality education and health care, which is not the case in this country.

Education is extremely important. Perhaps the most vulnerable people in society are those who have opted out of the education system early on. We hope the committee will address these issues and ensure implementation of the national suicide prevention programme is adequately safeguarded at this time of great economic tribulation. By so doing, we would ensure a life for our young people, making Ireland a safer place for all. We will be happy to answer questions and expand on the issues I have raised.

Will Dr. Connolly comment on the introduction of the recommendations made in Reach Out 2005-2014 and the Oireachtas report, three years after it was accepted as national policy by all parties? There is a feeling of frustration at the attention other organisations with similar tasks are receiving. On resources, suicide prevention is the poor relation in respect of those bodies charged with dealing with health and safety issues.

Dr. John Connolly

This is worrisome. Suggestions made in Reach Out 2005-2014 were proposed for action in the short term but this has not occurred. It is frustrating that in implementation of Reach Out 2005-2014 and A Vision for Change, promised, apparently ring-fenced, financing was not made available. Programmes have been underfunded from the beginning. This makes them the Cinderella of the health service. We must draw attention to the fact that road safety measures, for example, receives a far larger slice of the cake than suicide prevention measures. There are more deaths by suicide in Ireland than in road traffic accidents. A number of fatalities in road traffic accidents are disguised suicides. There is not an equitable sharing of the cake for mental health services and suicide prevention measures. This must be addressed.

Professor Michael Fitzgerald

The fact is that people with a mental illness have no power base in society. There are no marches by people in this group. People with these problems depend on the goodwill of those with power, those who deal with the allocation of funding. Funding for mental health services has always been low.

Let me highlight the stigma attached to mental illness. Ireland had the most wonderful art collection, called outsider art. Most of the collection is by people who have a mental illness. The owners who are living in England were told to remove it from Irish soil because it was not wanted in Ireland. If this was a Picasso, the country would be up in arms. This is a wonderful collection, admired throughout the world, yet the owners were told to remove it, just because it had been produced by people with a mental illness. This caused them great distress. Some of the collection is to an incredibly high standard. I make this point on the stigma which is a major issue with regard to mental illness, suicide and funding.

Professor Michael Fitzgerald

I do not know the names of the people involved or where it is but it is within the Irish museum system. I have only the view of the owners of the collection. What upsets me is that it is the art of people who are mentally ill and it is recognised as tremendously valuable. Outsider art is a special category within arts. I am not an expert but it is recognised by art historians as a special category. My point is that it should not be sent out of Ireland abruptly without discussion. Nobody is bothered about it. It seems that people are interested in trendy artists but that the art of those who are mentally ill, even if it is of high quality, should be got rid of.

We should find out more about this and see what we can do about it. Perhaps we will need to use the Freedom of Information Act.

Professor Michael Fitzgerald

That is the status at present. It is beyond me.

Is there a collection?

Professor Michael Fitzgerald

It is the Musgrave Kinley Outsider Art collection. The woman who owns the collection is in England and is extremely distressed about the matter. She is also distressed that nobody has cared that this has happened.

Dr. Justin Brophy

Looking at it from the outside one can see that one reason the Road Safety Authority had such success is that it has a CEO, a fund, a mission, an office and other supports. It has a clear legislative framework and other statutory frameworks and agendas which it is advancing.

It has a budget of €40 million.

Dr. Justin Brophy

This is missing in regard to suicide prevention. One of the problems is that while road safety is a multi-agency operation, one cannot get agencies to co-operate unless one creates a body with a mission to reduce the incidence of suicide. We are missing the centralisation of such a body. Regardless of the size of the budget, if a single agency had this remit there would be a much higher delivery on Reach Out because it would be the agency's mission to get the HSE, schools, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the Garda Síochána and the other agencies to work together. This can be done without a large budget if there is a concentration of energy and resources.

There is widespread public and political belief that nothing can be done to prevent suicide, that suicide prevention is a waste of time and that if a person has decided to die by suicide nothing can be done to stop him or her. All the evidence points to the contrary. Scotland, England, many other English speaking jurisdictions and many countries throughout the world have clearly shown time and again that for a relatively moderate investment suicide rates can be reduced by clear, meaningful and measurable numbers. These people have a long lifespan. One is not saving a life at the end of life, one is saving lives for 50 or 60 years.

The belief that suicide prevention works must be restated. Everyone believes that road safety measures saves lives. People do not believe that suicide prevention measures will. If we have one agency we can win support for it and then demonstrate, as has been done with road safety, that investment pays results.

I thank the delegation for coming before the sub-committee. I join the Chairman in extending congratulations to Dr. Brophy on his appointment and I wish him well. I wish to address to Professor Fitzgerald my concern about the low number of adolescent psychiatric beds. The number was to be increased. What is the current status in that regard?

I concur with Dr. Connolly's point on comparing suicide deaths to road deaths. While no news is welcome with regard to death, the amount of funding is bizarre. Road deaths are announced in every news bulletin and in newspapers. A summation is given at the end of each week and we receive constant updates on how many people have died on the roads. We also have unquantified and unverified deaths which occur in road traffic accidents which were deliberate single vehicle accidents. This is not to say every single vehicle accident is a suicide or a success in terms of what was hoped to be achieved. What would be the best way to make progress in suicide prevention? Is it money or legislation? If one had a magic wand, what would it be?

Dr. Justin Brophy

The Office of Suicide Prevention has filled a gap and I should have included it in what I stated previously. However, it has not been funded or empowered to grasp all of the nettles which need to be grasped. It needs to reach critical mass and critical support. Perhaps then it could fulfil its mission because at present it is hampered.

The single most important magic wand solution is to reduce alcohol consumption and excess alcohol consumption in males, particularly those under the age of 35 and elderly isolated males. Alcohol is the single greatest element which adds to suicide statistics in Ireland. People do not understand this or how alcohol is so dangerous in young troubled lives and how it adds to impulsiveness and recklessness. It is lethal in these circumstances, as it is for an elderly isolated male who uses alcohol to cope. Notwithstanding the other issues raised, making people aware of the dangers of alcohol and reducing the consumption, particularly in those age groups and segments of the population, is the single most important action that can be taken.

Dr. John Connolly

It amounts to education and we mentioned this with regard to stigma. We must remember that suicide is multifaceted. It is viewed as a medical problem but it is not, apart from at the end stages of a long process of suffering in vulnerable people. We must make everyone realise that it is society's problem and it can be tackled through social change. Road traffic accidents are seen as a social problem and a problem for society, and action is taken. We need to make a major shift in attitude.

What about the number of beds?

Will Dr. Connolly repeat his answer to the previous question?

Dr. John Connolly

People can cop out of their responsibilities in regard to suicide prevention by seeing it as a medical problem but in fact it is society's problem. Doctors who are psychiatrists deal with the process at end stage but its origins may be in education and childhood. We have the same relationship to suicidal behaviour and suicide deaths as consultants in accident and emergency departments have to road traffic accidents. The causes and origins are remote and we deal with the casualties, who are psychiatric casualties in this case. People must realise that suicide is society's problem. This is why we repeat the mantra that suicide prevention is everybody's business.

Professor Michael Fitzgerald

The plans for adolescent beds are good. However, today prior to coming here I tried to get a seriously ill 14 year old girl into an adolescent unit but there is no possibility of getting her in for quite a while. We try to manage as best we can by seeing the girl every day or two and supporting and treating her as an outpatient. It is quite an issue currently. It is to be hoped there are good plans in place. The issue is to maintain the momentum on this issue and to ensure the promises of beds that have been made are kept. That requires careful monitoring by people such as the members of the sub-committee to ensure these come on stream.

I apologise for having to leave the meeting owing to a parallel commitment. I would like to be associated with the welcome extended to all our guests. It is important for the sub-committee to have a session such as this one.

To pick up on the opening remarks about the challenges recession brings, I am old enough to remember other difficult times during the past 50 years. The representatives' presentation is accurate in that there will always be more pressure on people when an increasing number of people are losing their jobs and the economic climate is grim. As politicians we face a challenge. If one were to follow around any of the four politicians present, one would learn that people lobby us for all manner of priorities, which is fair enough. If one were to listen to my telephone calls and read my post, one would note that many people who contact me are lobbying on an issue. I will not say something in this room and say something else outside it. We should address the issue that is of concern to us in terms of the remit of this committee because it affects every single community in the country.

I probably am not allowed to mention President McAleese in the Dáil but I recall her making a point at a function, which the Chairman also might have attended, that any family who believes they are not affected by suicide does not understand what is happening in the country.

It is important that one of the representatives emphasised the point about alcohol. It is a subject to which we take the John Wayne "quiet man" approach in Ireland. I am not a prude as far as alcohol is concerned but I believe we do that. That is the image visitors here, to whom I spoke to this week, have and it is the image I hear expressed the odd time I go abroad. It is important the point that alcohol is a major factor in the incidence of suicide is made and it should be included in our report. If we learn nothing else today other than that, we will have learned a good deal. We need to highlight that issue. I am a proud Irishman and a proud Dublin man, but that is the image projected about alcohol, namely, that it is great to have a drink and it creates a merry atmosphere. However, it also causes a range of problems. As far as suicide prevention is concerned, alcohol is a major challenge and we should not be afraid to talk about it.

The other aspect of the presentation that interested me was the question of media reporting and the way we handle that. In fairness to the media, to some extent they are damned if they do and damned if they do not. We all read death notices in newspapers in our communities in which a simple word such as "suddenly" or "unexpectedly" will always send out a message. I am always sensitive about the point Senator Prendergast made about road traffic incidents. It is unfortunate when media reports of single vehicle accidents make a presumption, even in a roundabout way. That must be hugely upsetting to families who are affected in that regard.

It is important that we have these kinds of sessions. What Dr. Connolly states in the first page of his presentation about the challenge is correct. Otherwise, we are all wasting our time and none of us wants to do that. I realise he does not like me mentioning this but all of us are in awe of the work our Chairman, Deputy Dan Neville, does in this regard. We genuinely want to help him and that is why we have volunteered to be on this sub-committee again. We want to try to achieve something in terms of getting the message across to the State agencies. The representatives have thrown down the challenge in their presentation and we face a real challenge in that respect. Every issue of priority throughout the country will be on politicians' desks in the coming weeks but it is important that we recognise the issues of concern. I am not patronising the representatives by any means but it is important that we try to create a situation where lives are saved. I believe the recommendations this sub-committee will put forward can contribute to achieving that.

Dr. Connolly said, and it is something I have often said, that every person has a role to play in this regard. I live in Tallaght where a psychiatric unit is located and we have challenges in that respect. A person died by suicide in Tallaght Hospital not long ago which caused great upset in my community. We have been fighting officialdom for the appointment of a suicide nurse because Tallaght Hospital was behind every other general hospital, certainly in the Dublin region, in that respect.

The remarks made highlight the fact that everybody has a role to play, including everybody in the hospital system and certainly those in the political system. We are battling as much as the representatives are and they will be aware that Senator Mary White has produced a number of reports recently which highlight some of those issues. We are all committed, without being virtuous about it, to try to bring this issue forward. That is the reason we are engaging in this work again. I hope the report we produce, with Dr. Barry's assistance, will bring this forward to try to make some meaningful contribution to solving this problem. I do not believe it ever will be solved, and we all admit that there will always be pressures as far as that is concerned, but we have to do our best and that is what we should do.

I want to pick up on two issues the Deputy mentioned. To put the road accident one in context, there are single vehicle road accidents that are suicides. Dr. Connolly might address that. The other point Deputy O'Connor raised was crisis intervention in terms of crisis nurses, availability outside of normal working hours and responding to people in crisis. Dr. Connolly might respond to those two issues and any others he wishes to address.

Dr. John Connolly

The road traffic accident issue is an interesting one. It is difficult to quantify it. It can be done on large-scale research projects where there are many such accidents, as in the United States of America. The results of its study would indicate that approximately 6% of single vehicle road traffic accident with a single occupant in the car are disguised suicides. That does not consider the murder-suicides where a parent or others may drive into the tide with a child.

It is important to remember that if we take it that many single vehicle road traffic accident are in fact disguised suicides, many of the accidents where people survive may have been attempted suicides. If we had an index of suspicion on that, it might be a time to intervene therapeutically on somebody who was in great distress.

Crisis nurses are a very good idea. Some hospital services have specially trained nurses in accident and emergency departments which have worked out well but there is not enough of those. We need many more personnel involved.

One of the problems that arises in talking about this issue, and this is a fault in our presentation as well, is that we narrow it down too much in terms of completed suicide. We forget that more than 11,000 people present each year in accident and emergency departments with symptoms of deliberate self-harm. God knows how many go to their general practitioners. The calculations that would be accepted internationally would be that, in a country like Ireland, for every one who presents to an accident and emergency department, approximately seven do not present. The overall problem, therefore, is that there may be 70,000 or more attempted suicides or episodes of deliberate self-harm in Ireland every year.

When we consider the economics of this problem, we must think of the huge burden put on the health services by attempted suicide and its attendant problems. That gives us a much better idea of the size of the problem of suicidality rather than just focusing on the deaths.

On the services and crisis nurses, I should mention the Chairman's point about the need for a 24-hour service. That was dramatically illustrated by various reports in the media regarding people who were unable to obtain a proper assessment during the night. This is particularly upsetting in respect of reports of murder suicide. Given the media's important role, a mechanism is needed to implement more firmly the guidelines developed by the IAS and the Samaritans for reporting suicide. Moves appear to be afoot by the Press Council and the Press Ombudsman to take positive action on this. We have concerns about portrayal in the media because, while we must educate people about suicide, we must also be aware of the danger of normalising suicide. We are trapped in that dilemma at times. Some kinds of reporting are harmful but others can be a positive force.

I ask Dr. Connolly to develop his point that suicide prevention is everyone's problem. As it appears likely that we will not receive further funding, we will have to make do with what we have.

Dr. John Connolly

We have a duty to our fellow man. It is important that people educate themselves about this and other social problems. They should be aware of the myths about suicide that circulate the country and recognise the warning signs. Several programmes have been established to this end but inevitably they need funding. It is also important to know the signs and symptoms of mental illness, which is closely associated with suicide. Dr. Brophy highlighted the issue of drug and alcohol addiction.

Education in the community is best delivered by voluntary bodies because it is difficult to impose programmes through statutory authorities. Voluntary organisations are tremendously important in this aspect of suicide prevention because they involve people on the ground without a need for too much funding or training. Their role as the conduit between statutory authorities and the public at large has to be developed further.

How can media reporting avoid clusters or copycat suicides? Incidents can appear to cluster in particular areas or among teenagers in the same school. What is Dr. Connolly's advice for the media? Are guidelines needed in regard to reporting tragedies such as suicides?

Dr. John Connolly

Several hours would be required to answer that question.

I appreciate that.

Dr. John Connolly

It is a very broad issue. I would preface my answer by noting that the majority of the media are balanced in reporting suicide. Elements of the media indulge in shock and horror reports which over-simplify the issues, foster prejudices about the stigma attached to suicide and romanticise the subject. Suicide is sold as a solution to problems, whereas it is not a solution to anything. Other kinds of incorrect reporting include sharing explicit details of how a suicide was achieved or advertising sites where people might take their own lives, such as the suspension bridge in Bristol, the Golden Gate Bridge, Beachy Head in England or the Beacon in Baltimore. The greater the front page publicity given to suicide, the greater the likelihood of copycat suicides. To ameliorate harm done by reporting on suicide, reports should contain lists of telephone numbers of associations that would help people over their crises.

The overriding question is whether a report will lead to a person seeking help or upset the bereaved. This question should be at the front of the journalist's mind.

Members of the sub-committee attended the 12th symposium on suicide in Glasgow. The symposium came up with several suggestions which offered hope in terms of cards and support. It strikes me that cases which require hospitalisation are being managed as crisis interventions on a daily basis. One of the suggestions made at the conference was in regard to facilitating interventions in known areas for suicide. Lighting was installed on one famous bridge to make it less comfortable — pardon the expression — to carry out this act. Four people who, for various reasons, did not succeed in what they set out to do gave their views on how they apparently returned to sanity. Those who were bereaved constantly ask themselves what they could have done if only they knew about the problem. I was impressed by the amount of expertise and money that was available for dealing with these problems. We wanted to take all the positive aspects and put them into one package.

Dr. Justin Brophy

There are very good examples in Macra na Feirme and the GAA of suicide awareness and prevention packages. These are the proper organisations to develop awareness because they are nationally based and are integrated into local communities. This model for increasing suicide awareness is the appropriate one to adopt because blanket saturation at population level is not good. The issue needs to be contextualised and localised within an organisation and a community. Awareness could thereby be enhanced without a large budget.

I agree. May I ask two further questions?

The Senator will appreciate that we are approaching the end of the time allotted to us but she may ask her questions.

There seems to be an industrial relations blockage to the 24-7 service. From a management point of view I cannot understand why that cannot be implemented.

Dr. Justin Brophy

It is too expensive to have people available at every point where a person might present in crisis. While accident and emergency departments are open 24-7 where they exist, there is no countrywide consistency on the capacity of each department to manage suicidal crisis, nor is there the capacity to link the suicidal crisis with the mental health service in many instances. Many accident and emergency departments and general hospitals have no adult or child psychiatry liaison teams. The follow-through at weekends or nights can be particularly difficult. We operate where people are free to come and go. The creative solutions where one might accompany people or send somebody to their house the next day work, but they are expensive and need to be consistently available, which they are not. It is not an industrial relations issue but a question of ensuring those resources are put in place.

Dr. Siobhán Barry

It is just over three years since Reach Out was published and that made 30 phase one recommendations for immediate roll-out. Dr. Connolly said few of those have been implemented. The preface to Reach Out says suicide is everybody's business. Interestingly, the preface to the latest road accident prevention strategy also says road safety is everybody's business. There are strong parallels in the demography. Young people are the population age band most represented in suicide and road traffic accidents. Males tend to be represented more than other groups in suicide, as they do in road traffic accidents. Even the day of the week on which the most fatal road traffic accidents happen is the same day on which suicides tend to happen most frequently. Certain single vehicle accidents are likely to be disguised suicides and while the percentage of those varies, it is between 3% and 6%.

The Road Safety Authority, RSA, has been lauded for the value for money it represents. Over the years the investment in road safety has systematically increased and the death rate has decreased. Dr. Connolly said suicide and its prevention is not a medical problem alone, although it often washes up in medical circumstances because people who deliberately self harm or get into suicidal crises present to medical facilities. However the preceding factors that go way back in time have their origins in the family, social domain etc. This is leading to where I would like the IAS to comment.

The NOSP was established three years ago after the publication of Reach Out. Since that time it has been situated in the office of population health in the HSE. In the latest reorganisation of the HSE the office of population health is to be disbanded and I do not know that it has been decided where the NOSP, fledgling as it is, will be situated in the next configuration of the HSE. Would anything be gained by taking it out of the health domain and associating it with the RSA? Both areas are about keeping people safe, whether from accidents or from actions they might carry out themselves.

As we are about to finish I want to deal briefly with two other issues. One is a hobby-horse of mine, the recovery plan of a person who suffers from a psychiatric illness and is suicidal. Families repeatedly tell us the condition of the person discharged is not discussed and they are at sea as to how to deal with the situation. Sometimes they feel the person should not be discharged and they have an input to make. There is much frustration in certain circles about that. Dr. Brophy might comment briefly on that. Could he also comment on "postvention" and bereavement services?

Dr. Connolly referred to the restriction on the quantities of over the counter paracetamol. What can we do to get these regulations implemented? Can communities take power? When I researched my document I bought three boxes of paracetamol in a shop. That was 36 tablets. What can we do? The regulation is there to limit the amount one can buy and it should be simple to implement it. It does not require money; it is the law.

Dr. Justin Brophy

The NOSP would be better if it was put on the footing of an authority with powers similar to the RSA. I do not know that linking it to the RSA would drive that forward but if it were put on the same footing it would be more likely to make the impact it intends.

Dr. Siobhán Barry

The RSA could also change. It is not that it would come under road safety but that it would become a different kind of authority. As well as the parallels I mentioned, the impact of alcohol and drugs are of interest to the RSA as they are in suicide prevention. If it became a different authority with the same muscle, would it do better?

Dr. Justin Brophy

I will finish by speaking about the standardisation of post-treatment care plans. There is a difficulty due to the lack of standardisation of practice in the country both in the assessment of people who present in suicidal crisis and in the management following that assessment as to what the follow-through should be. It is entirely feasible and very reasonable that this could be standardised at the level of a community person, for example, step one, if a Deputy or any lay person is approached he or she will know what to do. Step two could be for a primary care non-mental health specialist and step three for an accident and emergency person. This way people could assess at the level appropriate to themselves and know how to move to the next level.

At the decision making level following that assessment it is entirely possible to construct a standard format in which post-suicidal crisis care could be set down. Each county could have its own crisis network. It could have leaflets available to people, a standard protocol and referral and care pathways. That work can be done without a large budget. It would take a lot of interagency co-operation and stakeholder consultation. The North is doing something like this in parallel by setting standards of care and writing a standards document. We could get a standards document in regard to assessment and throughcare of people in suicidal crisis. It would set out minimum reasonable standards at all levels in the system.

Dr. John Connolly

I will refer to after care. We need the involvement of families in after care and it always struck me as strange that people feel the need for confidentiality with regard to suicide. If a relative is in hospital with pneumonia, a broken leg or cancer, people would get information very easily. It is interesting that the issue is addressed by a publication of the American Psychiatric Association, which indicated one should never really promise confidentiality to somebody who is suicidal and the family should be involved. The likelihood of being sued for breach of confidentiality in that context is negligible even in the United States, which is very keen on litigation. There have been some tragic cases as a result of not communicating and we must educate people on that.

There are two issues left concerning postvention and paracetamol.

Dr. John Connolly

The paracetamol issue amounts to education. When the legislation was initially introduced, everybody knew about it and discussed it. New staff have now come in and old staff left so people do not understand what this is about.

In a previous debate there was strong support in certain quarters for having paracetamol only in pharmacies, although not by prescription.

Dr. John Connolly

There is some sense in that as it may be too readily available in supermarkets, garages and so on. However, it is a very commonly used——

Dr. John Connolly

——analgesic, which is important for people. Staff should be educated. I have heard stories that when staff at check-outs are questioned about the issue, they do not know what the regulation is about or its purpose. They may put the second packet through the till as a separate transaction, which is to be avoided.

Dr. Justin Brophy

Packet warnings would go a long way.

That can be removed. It is the same idea as cigarettes being out of reach in the supermarket.

Dr. Justin Brophy

It is not on supermarket shelves anymore.

Dr. Justin Brophy

It cannot be accessed directly.

Dr. Justin Brophy

My understanding is it cannot.

Dr. Justin Brophy

I stand to be corrected on it. Perhaps one cannot access it directly in garages. Many people who died from paracetamol overdose would not have realised they had taken a lethal amount, which is the real issue.

Dr. Justin Brophy

It is not a common lethally-intended method of choice, although it is a common lethal method. Much clearer packet warnings would go a long way in dealing with the problem.

If cigarettes cause cancer over time and two packets containing 12 paracetamol — which can be bought in supermarkets — can destroy a person's liver, both are causing irreparable damage.

Dr. Justin Brophy

Yes.

It seems simple in that some decision should be made that it would be sold behind the customer services desk like cigarettes. One could commit suicide with three packets of 12 paracetamol tablets. Approximately a third of the overdosing figures are from paracetamol, which is quite high.

Dr. Justin Brophy

Powerful lobbies are resisting clearer and more explicit packet warnings.

Will the witnesses deal with postvention briefly?

Dr. John Connolly

It is very important because people bereaved through suicide are at high risk for completed suicide in future and need much support. Bereavement through suicide causes a special scar, which we must recognise. People bereaved through suicide can flounder with their grief in the community and there are not enough services. There must be expansion. There are some very good organisations like Console and Living Links, and there is an organisation in Leitrim called STOP, which offers support and counselling for people bereaved through suicide. Many of these are run on a shoestring, so this major problem must be addressed.

I thank the witnesses from the Irish Association of Suicidology, Professor Michael Fitzgerald, Dr. John Connolly and Dr. Justin Brophy for attending and informing the sub-committee with their knowledge and expertise. We will apply it to the final report we will draw up.

Sitting suspended at 4.15 p.m. and resumed at 4.25 p.m.

We will now meet representatives from the National Suicide Research Foundation. I welcome Dr. Ella Arensman, director of research, Dr. Carmel McAuliffe, senior researcher, and Dr. Helen Keeley, consultant child and adolescent psychiatrist. Before we begin I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members may ask questions after the briefing.

Dr. Ella Arensman

Can everybody see the presentation? I have handed out copies of the slides. I thank the Chairman and other members of the sub-committee for inviting us here today. We are privileged to be here three years after the first time we presented as part of the consultation round. The objective today is to reflect on the progress made since the launch of Reach Out and since the launch of the important report of this sub-committee. I am joined by Dr. Helen Keeley and Dr. Carmel McAuliffe. Dr. Keeley will also do a brief presentation specifically focusing on youth suicide and deliberate self-harm among adolescents.

I will start by briefly looking at the historical overview or flow of developments in this area in Ireland. I will not go through this in detail but I must highlight that it is not a long time ago that suicidal behaviour was decriminalised in Ireland. In fact, Ireland was the last country in Europe to decriminalise suicidal behaviour. In some of our research, particularly that focusing on stigma and attitudes towards suicide, we see the important impact of this.

In 1995 the late Dr. Michael Kelleher, whom most members will still remember, took up the challenge of setting up the National Suicide Research Foundation in Cork. It was definitely a major challenge in a time in which the stigma was very significant and there was also an absence of reliable data on suicide and self harm. It is unfortunate that by the time Dr. Kelleher achieved the first overviews of and statistics on self-harm, in 1998, he died tragically. That was an important year because the task force was set up as the first cornerstone of suicide prevention.

I will not go through this in great detail but 2005 was a very important year because Reach Out, the ten-year prevention strategy, was launched. I and Dr. Paul Corcoran from the office were involved in writing that publication, together with other members of the writing group, over a period of two years. Another very important milestone was the publication of the report of this sub-committee, which was very timely because there was a need to plan for the future and take on the problem in a comprehensive and structured way.

In most of my presentation today I will focus on specific outcomes in the past three years. I have prepared a pack for members with publications, reports and papers published in peer-reviewed journals, but only with reference to work published in the past three years. The NSRF has had its mission statement for a long time. Why are we doing research? We are not doing it for its own sake but to provide an evidence base to support policy and strategy in this area. In addition, we are a resource, to a large extent, for HSE agencies, and in recent years we have received many requests from community-based services, schools and so on. As I often say in the office, it is a never-ending list.

Historically, Dr. Michael Kelleher started with research in the area of epidemiology of suicide and self-harm, and his main focus was on risk and protective factors. We have obtained much relevant information in this area, but there are still gaps and there are many unanswered questions.

I will end my presentation with an update on these issues with respect to the strategy document and I will describe how we look to the future. It is necessary to have another arm of research when one conducts research in this area. To know the risk factors is to complement the work of the National Suicide Research Foundation. If one knows the extent of the problem, one must then do something about it. However, this is not enough. It is necessary to measure whether what one does about it is effective. For this reason we have established a number of interventions and prevention programmes, especially for young people. Dr. Helen Keeley will report on some innovative projects we have conducted. When one attempts to implement change, attitudes are very important, particularly in light of the history of criminalisation of suicidal behaviour.

Our strategy has changed to a great extent since the launch of Reach Out and the report of this committee. Many of our research priorities are now guided by Reach Out and also by the recommendations in the committee's report. I did not have a great amount of time to prepare this presentation but when I went through the list of 33 recommendations in the committee's report I discovered to my pleasure that all the work we have been doing in the past three years feeds into 16 of the 33 recommendations. Some of these will be illustrated by some of the outcomes that Dr. Helen Keeley and I will present.

Since the start of Reach Out, an increased number of studies has been commissioned by the national office for suicide prevention. A good example is the Garda form 104 report which is in the pack I provided to the members. Trying to discover what lies behind the statistics we receive every year from the Central Statistics Office has proved to be almost a revolutionary type of research in Ireland. That report has been a cornerstone for a new project we are taking on and to which we refer, in house, as the confidential inquiry. Outside, we refer to it as the suicide support and information system.

I am very pleased to tell the sub-committee of an increased number of collaborative studies with Northern Ireland. We established these in the past three years. On World Suicide Prevention Day in September we received an interim report on the first findings of a pilot registry on deliberate self harm in the Derry region. Working with Northern Ireland has been a most useful expansion.

We have also been looking at work outside Ireland because there is never sufficient funding for developmental and new projects. These include an increased number of European collaborative projects under the FP6 framework programme and three new projects under the FP7 programme. Most of the priorities in these studies are in line with the report of this committee and with Reach Out.

Everywhere I go I bring the iceberg diagram now displayed and most sub-committee members will be aware of it. Looking at the most recent findings available from the CSO showing years of occurrence, we see there has not been a significant reduction in suicide. If we take the new findings from the 2006-07 report on the registry, there are still approximately 11,000 cases of self harm coming through accident and emergency departments. We have ongoing evidence from a study we completed in 2004 on a school-based study among adolescents. We found that although a very large number of young people had engaged in self harm, 85% had not been in touch with anybody in the services. If we extrapolate from this to all ages and regions of the country, we find a shocking estimate of 60,000 hidden cases of self harm per year.

We completed a new review-type overview that examined the extent of prior self harm by looking at hidden cases. In the iceberg diagram, members can clearly see that a relatively high proportion of people have already repeatedly self harmed or have a history of repetition, although they remain hidden. If we go further up, we see that an even higher percentage of people seen in emergency departments have a history of previous self harm. At the top, if we examine the history of people who have died by suicide, a possible 82% have repeatedly self harmed or have a history of self harm in the past.

Unfortunately, we can only show the data to 2005 because we are dependent on year of occurrence data issued by the CSO. The pattern we saw years ago continues with a slight increase of suicide rates in the 22-24 age group. An intensified focus on intervention and prevention activities for young people is justified.

The following slide shows an overview of suicide trends matched with trends of deaths by road vehicle accidents during the period 1997 to 2005. It speaks for itself. Deaths by suicide are consistently higher than deaths by road traffic accidents. Although there is a slight decrease in mortality caused by road traffic accidents, there is no significant change in suicide rates.

I thought it worthwhile to bring to the committee an overview of trends in undetermined deaths in respect of men and women during the period 1996 to 2005. Contrary to our expectation, we see that in 2004 the rates of undetermined deaths rose for men and women. From studying work done on the Garda form 104 and from subsequent consultations with coroners, gardaí and other mental health care professionals, we know that a certain proportion of hidden cases of suicide are listed as indeterminate deaths but to date we do not know what the proportion is. We hope to make further advances in this area with the new suicide support and information system in which we will work closely with the coroners.

Most members will be familiar with the next picture which shows the coverage of the national registry of deliberate self harm. In the past two years we were able to cover all general hospitals in Ireland and we now produce data each year showing full coverage. It is important for the committee to see what has changed since the early part of this decade. Initially, we saw a falling rate of self harm among men and women and we were hopeful that with the Reach Out strategy and the priorities laid out in the committee's document, we would be able to push this rate further downwards. Unfortunately, figures for the latest year, 2007, show an increase in deliberate self harm among men and women.

We must make a specific critical note here. In those years, especially 2005 to 2007, inclusive, there was a push with regard to programmes that address stigma and increase awareness of suicidal behaviour. It may be the case that people who engage in self harm but at a low non-lethal level, by superficial cutting, for example, or by taking only a few paracetamol pills or tranquillisers, now move into the accident and emergency departments earlier than some years ago. Although I am very much in favour of setting targets, I believe we must keep a critical eye on this possible hypothesis.

If we look at the final data for the last two years of the registry, there has not been much change in terms of the pattern and the top levels of rates of deliberate self harm. Unfortunately, we still see a very high peak of deliberate self harm in young girls between 15 and 19 years of age. We should not underestimate the relatively high peak of self harm among young adult men. Members will recall the previous slide showing suicide numbers. I do not believe it is coincidence that the peak of deliberate self harm found in men of the 20-24 age group occurs with the highest peak for rates of suicide. The only limitation in our work — and it is fundamental — is that we cannot link the data. That might be a challenge for the future.

Members are probably familiar with the relative distribution of methods used by people who engage in deliberate self harm. The majority take an overdose. In Ireland there is a very high prevalence of people using minor and major tranquillisers, followed by analgesics, especially paracetamol and paracetamol compounds, followed in turn by anti-depressants. Another remarkable issue here is the higher than average rate of self-cutting among men. I refer to this as the Irish phenomenon, because we do not see it in other countries. We have reached a stepping stone to enable us to investigate in more depth this group which engages in self-cutting. We wish to find out if the type of self-cutting is very different and if the lethality is higher than for women. We are at the bridge where we can carry out more research in this area.

There is another very important finding of recent years which the sub-committee should take into account when revising priorities. There is a high prevalence of repeated self harm among younger women following an episode for which they have received treatment in emergency departments. However, there now appears to be an increase in the number of men with a tendency to repeat attempts at deliberate self harm following the first attempt or episode. The majority of studies on effective treatments for such self harm involves women. We do not yet know if men respond in a similar way to cognitive behaviour therapy, CBT, problem solving or to other interventions, which is a new challenge for the coming years.

We should take very seriously the data showing that a majority of people, whether men or women, repeat an attempt at self harm very quickly after treatment in emergency departments. What does that tell us about assessment and after care? Some of the data is very worrying. We examined specifically where there are higher rates of people who repeat attempts at self harm in the first three or six months following treatment. Repetition rates for self harm are relatively high among people who have received psychiatric admission, but this probably reflects the severity of cases associated with that specific group. We all know about borderline patients or people with chronic depression who repeatedly harm themselves. The more there is repeated self harm the more difficult it is for clinicians to intervene in the process. This is the first hypothesis we should consider.

The findings in the next slide illustrate that a relatively high percentage of people who leave hospital unseen, or who refuse an assessment, are likely to return. There is a somewhat lower percentage, although it is still quite high, of readmittance for people who only receive general admission, or who are not admitted at all. We should remain vigilant, improve assessment procedures and bridge the gap between people who leave the hospital after an episode of self harm. There should be a proactive follow up approach in such cases.

This slide shows the iceberg effect again but it refers to different content. Because of time constraints I will not go into detail, but it highlights to the sub-committee that we have used a systematic approach in the research and the intervention studies conducted, to try to address all three levels of the iceberg. Most of the outcomes of this work are available in the pack I provided for the sub-committee, but some of the work is ongoing. I will provide some examples. Since we began working together with the Garda using the form 104 to collect relevant data, we know a little more about the accuracy of suicide statistics in Ireland. We evaluated the impact of restricted availability of paracetamol and the negative news is that we have not seen a significant change in the number of intentional drug overdoses following its restricted availability.

Consider the bottom of the iceberg. Much research has been done to test the effectiveness of depression and suicide awareness training, especially at the level of community facilitators. We have found a significant improvement in people's awareness and attitude following the six hour training sessions on depression and awareness held. Dr. Helen Keeley will elaborate on a new project to increase promotion of positive mental health among adolescents.

When preparing for the committee I tried to learn from the work done in the past three years and I discussed the issues with people in other organisations to find out what new priorities we should take on board in addition to those which have not yet been completely addressed, either by Reach Out or by the recommendations in the report of the committee. Consider that the number of men attempting repeated self-harm now exceeds the number of women. We should further examine the effectiveness of interventions aimed at such men.

There is a slight problem as we must vacate this room to allow another committee meeting to take place at 5.15 p.m., namely, the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs.

We have half an hour remaining.

I mention it so that everyone is aware and because the sub-committee members will wish to contribute.

Dr. Ella Arensman

I will move on a little more quickly. This is a very important point. If one undertakes a ten year strategy one must set targets. However, we are working in a complex area. We know there have been problems with the accuracy of suicide mortality data. We may set targets based on the work of Reach Out and the report of the committee. However, if during the course of the work the accuracy and the systems of recording suicide mortality improve, it is likely the suicide statistics will increase, perhaps on a temporary basis. It is important to take this into account. The National Suicide Research Foundation, NSRF, recommends that it is too soon to begin measuring whether we have achieved the targets. However, it is not too soon to carry out a process evaluation. Indeed, it is urgent to do so. I have outlined several criteria which could be taken into account in a process evaluation of the work of Reach Out and the recommendations of this committee. Several intermediate criteria could be considered, such as if sufficient resources have been provided to meet all the milestones and deliverables. Another question is if there has been sufficient capacity, quality of research and prevention networks set up. Have all milestones and deliverables been achieved over the past three years? There is also a question about the management and feasibility of the implementation of actions proposed in the two strategy documents. There may also be some ethical or legal issues blocking us on our route to 2016.

A final, very important point is the more political shifts we see, the more difficult it will be for us to maintain priorities in Reach Out and the report of the committee. We must consider several important challenges and issues of progress. The committee is aware of the three progress reports of the National Office for Suicide Prevention. Compared to the period before 2005, an impressive number of priorities and action areas have been addressed, which would not have been the case had the strategy not been in place at the time. The funding provided to prevent road traffic accidents is still 8.6 times higher than funding dedicated for this work and given the information in the first slide it should be clear there is a need to review this situation. There is another point which touches me in the heart. We have been involved in the past three years in many pilot studies, some of which have produced effective outcomes. One example is the study on assessment of delivered self harm regarding people who went through the industrial schools and who show high levels of mental health problems. Most of this work cannot be continued following a positive and effective pilot because of a lack of funding. This is a very serious issue. There is a great deal of discontinuity in research and prevention work; there are many short-term contracts and we are dealing with ring-fenced funding so each year we must review, which is very difficult when one is dealing with two or three year projects. If there is absence of stability in political support it will delay our tasks in the two strategy documents.

My main recommendations on behalf of NSRF are that it is a good time to carry out an independent process evaluation with regard to Reach Out and the recommendations set by this sub-committee, to update priorities for research and prevention of deliberate self harm and suicide, to prioritise national implementation of effective interventions, particularly those based on regional pilot studies, and work towards a route of more ring-fenced funding for this work and budgets should be in accordance with the duration of the interventions. I hope everyone in the room agrees with the last statement.

Dr. Helen Keeley

I will be very brief. I am here to discuss young people, and as can be seen from Dr. Arensman's presentation young people are a particular issue in Ireland. From Dr. Arensman's iceberg, it can be seen that a number of cases we are dealing with are above water. I will begin by discussing the above water cases and concentrate on the national registry data for the past two years. Consistent with previous years, deliberate self harm was largely confined to younger age groups. Nearly 90% of people who self harmed were under the age of 50, about half of the presentations were people under the age of 30 and the peak rate for women was in the 15 to 19 year age group as it has been since we started.

The rate of 600 per 100,000 was down 2% from 2005 and instead of one in 160 adolescent girls being treated in hospital for self harm, we now have one in 165. The peak rate for men occurs in the early 20s and the rate has decreased slightly to 392 per 100,000, which can be described as good news and might potentially mean that the increase Dr. Arensman noted in 2007 might be other age groups.

I want to look at the part of the iceberg which is below the water, and the case study which we were the Irish centre for, the child and adolescent self harm study. There are some publications from that study in the packs. The study was administered to approximately 4,500 Irish secondary school students aged 15 or 16 in the former Southern Health Board area, and looked at self harm, drug and alcohol use, psychological difficulties and how young people cope with that. Nearly 4,000 young people completed the study — a response rate of 85%, which was good — and just under 10% of the young people said they had self-harmed which is shocking. This is a standard classroom; we had no Youthreach, special schools or EBD schools. One in ten children in a standard Irish classroom has self-harmed.

The rate for girls was 14% and for boys was under 5%, a ratio of three-to-one, and only 11% of those children were ever medically treated. The chart I showed the committee with 165 cases, and the chart Dr. Arensman showed with the large peak on it is 10% of children who are self harming. It shocks me; it means I will never be out of a job because I am a child psychiatrist but it is very worrying.

We are not doing too badly compared to other countries involved in the study on the basis of the data. We are higher than Hungary, the Netherlands and Norway, but we are below Australia, Belgium and England. Recently, we looked at those who said "Yes" but told us nothing about it, and decided to look at them and see if they are more likely to have ticked "Yes" for the craic or are the same sort of children who had ticked "Yes" and then given a description. When we looked at these 100 children using demographic and personal data — I will not give it to the committee because we do not have time — apart from the fact that there were many more boys in the group, they were almost identical to the other young people who had self-harmed. We decided we were looking at lost, hidden cases where, for whatever reason, they were not prepared to fill out the information, and the fact that they were boys fits with the boys I meet, who do not want to talk about it.

If we include these cases we are looking at 434 cases which is 11.5% of young people in the classroom, and instead of a ratio of risk of 3.1:1, it is 2.5:1, with more boys than we had expected.

Before Dr. Keeley continues, I must attend a meeting of the Oireachtas commission. Senator Mary. M. White will take the Chair.

Senator Mary M. White took the Chair.

Dr. Helen Keeley

I have some information on the young people who self-harmed, those who did not self-harm and those who might have. We looked at their responses to open questions, which is a qualitative analysis and it sometimes provides more information than numbers. When we looked at the young people who had self-harmed and compared them to those who had not, those who had self-harmed tended to give more specific responses, often referring to their personal experiences, which I find quite difficult to talk about because some of the stories are very distressing.

Young people with no deliberate self-harm history, which is about 90% of young people, assume the environment and family would be supportive. These young people do not want to go to adults, but if they decided they wanted to they think that we would help them. The adolescents who had self-harmed had an entirely different view of the world, and from their point of view they had no expectation that they had a right to be respected or valued, or that they would ever have a genuine personal connection with an authority figure of any kind. That is substantiated by some of the information they gave us about their home lives.

All of the young people wanted more activities and facilities suited for a wider range of young people. They had an idea that those who play soccer or GAA are fine, but if one is not involved in those activities there is relatively less to do, and they felt it was important. When we looked at the 100 children who told us they self-harmed but gave no information, not surprisingly many of them gave us no information at all. About 40% gave us no information. With those that did, boys gave the greatest emphasis on the need for privacy, lack of identification and an underlying fear of discovery. We feel that is why they did not fill anything out. The girls spoke much more about fear, about being in scary places, gangs, alcohol and drug abuse, and needing safe places to hang out.

The people who did not deliberately self-harm gave us well-thought out views that were more like essays. They said, talk more with parents and friends, that teachers should listen more, reduce peer pressure, reduce exam pressure, all of which are very sensible.

When we did what is called a thematic analysis, the young people who self-harmed said their parents should pay more attention, watch out for signs of depression, should not force people into a corner, and one by which I was taken aback, to check up on parents with criminal records to stop abuse. That young person was talking about his or her own life and what his or her experience of life is about. That young person's form was incredibly interesting. There was a very interesting form about people who do not let their children be themselves but also do not give them any discipline or care.

I have always had an interest in the fact that adolescents get much blame for drinking and taking drugs. Have we ever asked why they do that? We had a look at parental substance abuse. As the numbers are small I ask the committee not to take them too literally. In terms of the association between self-harm and parental substance abuse, if neither of the parents had abuse problems their rates were lower than the average. If the father had abuse problems, the rates doubled from 11 for girls and nearly quadrupled for the boys. As the boys' rates were lower, the level does not appear quite so bad. If the mother had addiction problems, the effect was even greater. If both parents had substance abuse problems, a majority of girls had self-harmed and a third of the boys had self-harmed. There were similar associations with young people's use of substances.

When thinking about young people it is important to remember they do what they say and we have to remember their home lives.

Given that we have less than ten minutes and politicians would like to ask questions——

Dr. Helen Keeley

I would like to finish. We are heading towards a project headed up by the Karolinska study. The aim of the project which is very sensible, is to decide what is the most effective way of getting those young people to actually present to services. Only 10% present for services. It may not be necessary to put in a huge amount of money to get a good response. There are four arms to this study. First, screening with questionnaires and professionals screening the young people; second, using non-professional gatekeepers and training them up; third, general mental health training; and, fourth, a control group with leaflets. The idea is to see which one of these arms is the most effective, and it may not be the most expensive.

I apologise for having to rush Dr. Keeley.

Dr. Helen Keeley

That is not a problem. I have finished.

I will be brief. I too apologise for the fact that we are all suddenly under pressure. It is important that we be associated with the welcome extended to the witnesses and to say how important the presentation has been. I promise to look through the documents and I have no doubt it will be of assistance to us.

While I was interested in everything that was said, the last speaker struck a chord in the sense that Deputy Dan Neville and I are patrons of an organisation that operates out of Tallaght, Teen-Line Ireland, which offers a service to young people who need to talk to somebody. The organisation was founded by Maureen Bolger to commemorate her son who died some years ago. She wanted to do something and that is what she did.

We have listened to all sorts of presentations about every aspect of suicide and I will not say that one category is different from another. All aspects are of concern to us. We should also look at young people. I used to be fascinated, as I have said to Dr. Barry previously, that people of my age and older would inflict self harm but having worked with this group I have got to understand the issue a little better. I will never accept it but I understand it. I am always struck when I hear reference to what Dr. Keeley has just said. I hope her colleagues do not think I am singling her out for special praise. Her presentation, like all the presentations, has hit a chord. It is something we have to remember on a day when there is much political talk about young people. As the Vice Chairman will explain, everybody is under pressure today and I apologise for that but we have listened very carefully to the witnesses. The presentations have been a major contribution.

I thank the Deputy. Senator Prendergast and Dr. Barry would like to ask a few questions.

I also regret the fact that there appears to be a shoe-horning into a corner because of the constraints within the system. I remember well listening to the witnesses in Scotland. Given the amount of information there, it was hard to take it all in. However, I decided to read some aspect of it every week so that I would be able to take in elements of it. This is a very broad subject and one that will take some time for the sub-committee to do.

I have a terrific interest in young people. I regularly visit the schools in south Tipperary and south Kilkenny in relation to the sexual health programme and would have access to many young people. I am always saddened at the small number of beds available in adolescent psychiatry and the attention that should be paid to this subject. I can empathise with all those people who are looking at numbers which represent headstones or memories and there is no reality any more for them of that person. I believe that every aspect that might impact on something positive coming out of our deliberation will be included in our report to the main committee.

I commend my colleagues for the work they do in this area. I realise I am new to this work but I have an interest in it and I bring a freshness to it because I am a new member of the Oireachtas. I am impressed by the calibre of the witnesses, including Dr. Siobhán Barry. It is a huge subject and I am glad to play a part of it. I hope we can make a positive contribution.

Dr. Siobhán Barry

I have two questions for Dr. Keeley and one for Dr. Arensman. Dr. Keeley mentioned deliberate self-harm and put us on a league table with other countries in terms of young people. She said Norway has a higher rate of self-harm than us, and the UK and other countries appear to have a lower rate. How accurate are their statistics given that she has shown that 11,000 present to our hospitals and there is a huge number under the line?

My second question is allied to the first. Dr. Keeley said one of her objectives would be to get those people who are clearly troubled and have nobody to turn to, and as a result, engage in maladaptive behaviours, to present to services. Would services in their present configuration be able to cope were all those numbers of people who are hidden to present?

My next question is for Dr. Arensman who mentioned not being able to link the data between suicide and deliberate self-harm. Am I right in saying that is because of the anonymity of the data? She said earlier that she had data on suicide and data on deliberate self-harm but could not link them. Is that because she gets it from sources where the data is anonymous?

Dr. Ella Arensman

I do not know in which order to take the questions.

I wish to raise two points, one of which is on community facilitators. Dr. Keeley referred to the lack of facilities for young people which I would like Dr. Barry to include in her final report. There is a vacuum in terms of where our young people can socialise. It is a primitive situation that there is nowhere for them to socialise in the evening. In her final report I would appreciate it if Dr. Barry would address the lack of places where alcohol is not available for young people but where they can enjoy a social evening together that is not disciplined or boring. Young people need somewhere to go if this is the age we are concerned about. I thank the witnesses.

Dr. Ella Arensman

On the question about not being able to link the data on deliberate self-harm and suicide mortality, the deliberate self-harm data is being collected as part of the national registry of deliberate self-harm on which we have gained ethical approval for all the regions and the hospitals that came on board step by step from 2002 until the most recent year. The suicide mortality rate is released by the Central Statistics Office. The standard guidelines for both the deliberate self-harm registry and the CSO have similarities but also differences and to make a link, therefore, we would need to go through a procedure which would involve the Data Protection Commissioner. We are trying to take on that challenge but it often is a long route.

The slide on self-harm indicated that men in the 20 to 24 years category had the highest peak, and that has been consistent for many years. In recent times there has been a very high rate of suicide among men in the 20 to 24 years category. I am convinced that in that group of young men who die by suicide there may be a majority who started to engage in repeated self-harm and then finally took their lives, particularly in light of the findings that I showed on the lack of after care or assessment. We are taking it on as a challenge but we must get the approval of the Data Protection Commissioner.

Dr. Helen Keeley

To answer the question, the data is taken directly from the case study which used a standardised definition. That is the league table from the case study and it is absolutely accurate for the cohort that was investigated.

The question about services is difficult to answer because I do not know the level at which the services would be necessary. If everybody was to present for a child and adolescent mental health service at tier 3 level I would say absolutely not. Part of the major problem is that there are very few less specialised services, and that is a considerable concern. The fear is that they would land with a child in adolescent mental health services.

Would it be of any use if at some stage during the secondary school cycle there would be an input from a psychiatrist or a psychologist on a one to one basis with students regarding mental health issues? I accept that could be a major area but what would be the witnesses' views on that?

Dr. Ella Arensman

In regard to several studies we have conducted in the past and the case study in particular, we felt that in many of the schools we were involved with there remained a stigma surrounding mental health problems. If we had the funding to locate a psychologist or a psychiatrist to do these assessments, I am not sure if all the right information would come out in a school where that stigma is still a burden.

It would be more beneficial if we had guidance counsellors who are specialists in mental health and assessing self-harm or being able to communicate about self-harm. We have provided a great deal of training to guidance counsellors who learned a great deal in those training sessions and who told us after the training that they now feel comfortable in asking the question about self-harm. We must equip the guidance counsellors to be able to monitor in a more focused way how the students are getting on and make the school environment more comfortable to allow students talk about issues. Dr. Keeley highlighted a good deal of information based on the qualitative studies but I recall also the quotes from young people who said they would never go through the door of a guidance counsellor because everybody would think they were mad. That was the effect of the stigma.

Dr. Helen Keeley

I would be more in favour of a mental health approach than a mental ill-health approach and students being more comfortable to discuss these issues in general. At that stage we can start to consider how we might get access to young people who are struggling.

Dr. Ella Arensman has kindly agreed to speak on the stigma of suicide in care on Friday night at a meeting I will chair on suicide in the new Ireland in the Cahir House Hotel. We look forward to hearing her speak again.

I thank all the witnesses for attending, including Dr. Carmel McAuliffe, who works in the National Suicide Research Foundation, and Dr. Keeley. I thank Senator Prendergast, who will attend the meeting on Friday night also. We look forward to Dr. Siobhán Barry's final report in the next month or so.

The bottom line is that we have a financial constraint. There is a shortage of finances but we must get on with the job of reducing the rate of suicide with the money available to us. I get frustrated and annoyed when I hear about the need for more money when we will not get more money. We must make do with what we have and be more efficient with what we have and reduce the rate of suicide.

I thank also Stephen, Maria, Mary and Sinead. The meeting is adjourned.

The sub-committee adjourned at 5.17 p.m. sine die.
Top
Share