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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN debate -
Tuesday, 11 Oct 2011

Nutritional Value of Certain Foods: Discussion

I welcome Dr. Fiona Lithander and thank her for taking up our invitation. The purpose of today's meeting is to hear from her on the nutritional value of certain foods, particularly cheese, which is exercising the minds of many people in light of our intention to make a submission to the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland on the review of the children's commercial communication code. The issue of TV marketing at children is critical. Equally, the issue of the nutritional value of food must be examined critically and in a balanced way where we can have an informed and, if I can use the term, healthy debate to allow us achieve balance in terms of what is best for our children. It is important also that the debate would concern our duty to protect children. The Broadcasting Authority of Ireland is seeking our views and in that regard Dr. Lithander is a welcome guest to our committee.

Before she begins her contribution I remind her of the position on privilege. She is protected by absolute privilege in respect of her evidence to this committee. However, if she is directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continues to do so, she is entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of her evidence. She is directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and requested to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, she should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice or ruling of the Chair to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to him or her identifiable. I ask Dr. Lithander to make her opening remarks.

Dr. Fiona Lithander

I thank the Chairman for the invitation. I was invited as an independent nutritionist to discuss the consultation document published earlier this year by the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland.

By way of introduction, I hold a bachelor's degree and a Ph.D in nutrition. I am currently a lecturer in nutrition in the school of medicine in Trinity College and I am currently carrying out some research in the area of childhood obesity.

The brief I was given is such that I was asked to discuss the complete nutritional value of certain foods, in particular dairy products, particularly cheese, in light of the proposed methods for assessing the suitability of foods and drinks and possible restrictions on the advertising of those items to children. In terms of my presentation, I will briefly put all of that in context. I will talk through the proposed model. I will talk about the nutritional composition of dairy products such as milk and cheese. I will then go on to talk about the current dietary habits of children in Ireland, and will finish with the public health concerns children in Ireland face today.

I am sure no one in this room is unaware of the public health issue we face whereby one in four of our school-age children and one in five of our teenagers is either overweight or obese. Obesity is a risk factor for a number of diseases such as cardiovascular disease, type 2 diabetes and some cancers. Children throughout the world are exposed to the marketing of foods and drinks which are high in fat, salt and sugar. There is ample scientific evidence that suggests that television advertising of food and drink influences children's food preferences, their purchase requests and consumption patterns. I acknowledge that this is one of a range of factors that can influence children's health. There are a number of other factors such as environmental, social and individual, and all of those factors can interact to affect children's health.

Moving on to slide No. 3, the World Health Organization has published a number of reports over the years such as the one documented on the slide and those reports urge countries to take action to reduce the exposure to children of such marketing.

Moving on to my fourth slide, the proposed method for assessing the suitability of foods and drinks in the Irish context is called the nutrient profiling model. It is a scientific, rigorously validated tool that was developed in the United Kingdom for the purpose of broadcast regulation. I have outlined in the table how the model works but to explain briefly, we take 100g of a food or drink and based on its nutritional composition, that food is awarded a number of points or a score. A score is calculated and depending on that score, a food or drink is deemed to be either healthy or less healthy. That is how the model works but there are a number of points regarding that model to which I would like to draw members' attention.

First, the model assesses a food or a drink on its content of both less desirable nutrients and desirable nutrients. The model calls the desirable nutrients the C nutrients; they are listed on point No. 2 on my slide. Second, protein is one of the C nutrients or the desirable nutrients. Protein is included in the model because it is deemed to be an indicator or measure of how much iron, calcium or omega 3 fat, which is the good type of fat, might be found in a food or a drink. However, importantly, if a food or a drink achieves a score for its less desirable nutrients that is above a particular threshold, that is, it is packed with those undesirable nutrients, and scores lower than a particular threshold for the more desirable nutrients, the model is set up in such a way that we are prevented from using any of the points gained from protein, namely, the desirable nutrient in that food or drink. That protein restriction is in place to prevent foods that are high in calories, saturated fat, sugar and salt but high in protein from being classified as healthy. This is an important point and I will come back to it later in the context of dairy products, particularly, cheese.

On my next slide members will see I have set out the nutritional composition of milk. This is based on 100g of milk, which is about half a glass of milk. Members will see that on the slide I have three columns: whole milk, skimmed milk and semi-skimmed milk. Milk contains a mixture of nutrients and I have highlighted on the slide those nutrients that are used to assess milk using the model to determine if it is healthy or unhealthy. When one puts milk through the model, whether whole milk, semi-skimmed milk or skimmed milk, each category is classified as or deemed to be healthy. As with many other dairy products milk is a rich source of calcium, as I have highlighted on the slide, and calcium is an essential nutrient. It is important for growth, development of bone as well as several other functions such as blood clotting and neurotransmisison. It is of particular importance to children and especially children between nine and 18 years because that is a period of rapid growth and development.

The next slide shows the nutritional composition of hard cheese. We use 100g of cheese because the model works with 100g of a food or drink. The committee may be aware that an Irish child consumes a good deal less than 100g of cheese per day. I have highlighted these points on the slide but because cheese is so high in calories, saturated fat and salt, using the model I describe it is classified as a "less healthy" food. I refer to the point I made about protein. Although cheese contains protein, the points that come from protein cannot be used in the model because cheese does not contain enough of the other desirable nutrients. One might say this is an unfair assessment of cheese and to address this I ask the committee to examine the next slide. I am afraid it is a busy slide but I trust it highlights the point I am trying to make. The slide lists approximately 50 cheeses on sale in the United Kingdom, including cheddar and so on. I draw the committee's attention to the second column from the left, entitled "total score" from the current model. The committee will note that scores for all the cheeses, bar one, are well above the score of 4 and a score of 4 is the upper threshold for classifying a food or drink as being healthy. In addition, if the protein rule or restriction did not exist and if it were increased or completely removed, cheeses would still retain the classification of "less healthy" because of their calorie, saturated fat and salt contents. This raises an important question. If cheese is labelled "less healthy" and the marketing of cheese is restricted between 6 p.m. and 9 p.m., is this likely to be problematic to the health of children in Ireland with respect to their nutrient intake?

I refer to the composition of cheese. We have already stated that it is rich in calories, saturated fat and salt. I will not go through slide No. 9 in detail but it is evident from several scientific studies in Ireland that children in Ireland are already consuming enough, or too much, fat, sugar and salt as it stands. Therefore a reduction in the intake of any food or drink rich in fat, sugar or salt may have beneficial effects for children. Not only are children consuming too much fat, sugar and salt, but the inclusion in the diets of these less desirable nutrients, fat, sugar and salt, contributes to the fact that one in four of school-age children and one in five teenagers in Ireland is overweight or obese. In itself, this is a public health issue.

Let us consider calcium. As I remarked already, cheese is a rich source of calcium. Unlike the consumption of fat, sugar and salt, children in Ireland are not consuming enough calcium. The table on the right hand side of the slide on display highlights the recommendations with respect to calcium intake at different ages or life stages. I have drawn a highlight around the ages between nine through 13 years and 14 through 16 years. From nine to 18 years, the recommendations are that children should consume approximately 1,300 mg of calcium per day. The notes on the left hand side of the slide outline that children are consuming inadequate amounts of calcium in Ireland. Therefore the problem with restricting the advertising of cheese is that we may see less calcium being consumed by children than is the case currently, and the current intake of calcium is already lower than recommended.

I refer to the figures before that stage, involving children from one to eight years. Is it the case that children from one to three years are only consuming one fifth of the amount of calcium they should?

Dr. Fiona Lithander

The table on the right hand side shows the recommended calcium intake. From one through to three years, 500 mg is the recommended intake. The data we have from the national food surveys, which are on the left hand side of the slide, relate to children aged five to 12 years and aged 13 to 17 years. I cannot necessarily comment on the calcium intake of children in Ireland between one and three years because the data is not available.

Can Dr. Lithander explain to me the figures of 500 mg and 2,500 mg on the table?

It is the recommendation or upper limit.

Dr. Fiona Lithander

It appears we are in something of a catch-22 with respect to cheese. On the one hand I suggest that if we restrict the consumption of cheese, which is high in fat, saturated fat, calories and salt, it would be a good thing but I also suggest that if we restrict the consumption of cheese, it would be bad news because children in Ireland are already not getting enough calcium in their diet. Luckily, it is not that black and white. The good news is that dairy products are available which are low in fat and saturated fat but high in calcium at the same time. Such products include low-fat yoghurts and milk. In practical terms it may not be realistic to expect the average child to consume as much low-fat yoghurt and milk per day to meet the requirements as per the table.

Let us move on to the final slide. Ultimately, the question we should ask ourselves is in terms of children's health: which is of greatest concern? Are the consequences associated with not getting enough calcium greater than the consequences of consuming too much fat, sugar and salt? The answer to the question will tell us whether, on balance, cheese is a desirable or less desirable option for children in Ireland.

The slide on display shows a list of the principal public health concerns for children. These relate to poor eating habits. I have taken this slide from the consultation document. The committee will note that both lists, that is, the immediate and the long-term lists, are dominated by concerns related to overweight, obesity and cardiovascular disease. It is evident from these lists that insufficient calcium in the diet does not contribute to a principal health concern for children. For this reason logic dictates that listing cheese as "less healthy" for the purposes of advertising would be of greater benefit in avoiding some of these health concerns than children not getting enough calcium. This is especially the case given that alternatives are available from which children can get calcium and potentially meet calcium requirements, including low-fat yoghurt and milk.

Thank you. That was a very interesting and thought-provoking presentation. I call on Deputy Ó Caoláin to put some questions but to keep it to questions.

I thank Dr. Lithander for her presentation. I realise we are restricted in terms of time not only in terms of today's meeting, but by the timeframe within which we must respond to the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI, consultation process. I have no issue with what Dr. Lithander has said, save my observation that I was someone who grew up in a family environment in which we were encouraged to eat cheese and in which I was an unenthusiastic responder. In turn, I have seen the same in my five children. With regard to the health-related analysis that Dr. Lithander has presented to us, what is the reality of children's intake of cheese products? We can claim there is a significant problem but what does the real information suggest? Is real information available to us either from the National Dairy Council or cheese manufacturers and is there other opinion on the matter? We could be giving grist to the mill of a view inspired by a wish to reduce risks to children in terms of their current and adult health that may not stand up to serious scrutiny in light of the evidence that may be available. Will Dr. Lithander comment on that? While I appreciate the points she has made, I believe the reality may be very different from that presented. The purpose and intent are accepted but I wonder about the extent of cheese consumption across the brackets she mentioned.

I already indicated I am enthusiastic about cheese and the advent of such wonderful choice within the wider manufacturing base and the artisan end of the market in Ireland in recent years. This is a very welcome development. I am concerned and cautious and would like to have the necessary critical information to understand whether cheese is a contributor to the current obesity level among young people today. I am not convinced cheese is a major concern. Like everything else, it is a question of taking everything in moderation. This is one of the guiding positions we should hold.

Can Dr. Lithander give further information on what I have raised? I do not know whether the restricted timeframe of the committee allows for further investigation of this matter.

The submission must be made by Friday, which means a decision must be made by Thursday.

That will not be easy.

I have two brief questions following on from the comments of Deputy Ó Caoláin. There have been surveys which were conducted about ten years ago. Will Dr. Lithander indicate the amount of cheese the average child consumes? There is no point saying something is bad for one or less healthy than another product if the proportion being consumed is quite small. It is like being told full-fat milk is bad for one when one does not consume a lot in the day. It may not be an issue in regard to one's dietary habits at all. Will Dr. Lithander clarify that?

Dr. Lithander made the point that a child can obtain the amount of calcium he requires from low-fat yogurts and milk. What volume of these products would have to be consumed daily to obtain the amount obtained from cheese? The great advantage of cheese is that one obtains a lot of calcium in a small amount of product by comparison with the amount obtained from a similar amount of milk or yogurt. From my experience of trying to get small children to consume some of these products, I believe one would really have to supplement their diet if one did not give them cheese.

I thank Dr. Lithander for attending. Last week a reference to the report, Health and Nutrition of Children Living in Ireland, was circulated. Dr. Lithander confirmed exactly what was in the report. Both reports are nearly the same.

I have nothing against cheese and have eaten it all my life, but am concerned about childhood obesity. Healthy eating is important because it prevents obesity and other lifestyle-related conditions, such as heart disease, stroke and cancer.

I am delighted Dr. Lithander is in attendance. The leaflet received last week from the Food Standards Agency in the United Kingdom contains the exact same information as that outlined by Dr. Lithander. I will not repeat myself. Cheese is of major concern with regard to obesity so it is very important that we spend a little time talking about it and whether to recommend it. I am no expert. Dr. Lithander is an expert and all we seek is her independent opinion. We received this today and I am very pleased with the result.

I thank Dr. Lithander. I am my party's spokesperson on agriculture, food and fisheries. Why are we talking about cheese rather than the thousands of other products available? Were this policy to be adopted, we would have to consider the targets set out in Food Harvest 2020. We could not encourage the exportation of Irish cheese while discouraging the consumption of cheese among children on the grounds that it would have an adverse impact if not eaten in moderation.

I am sure Dr. Lithander has considered nations where research indicates good outcomes in terms of obesity among children, teenagers and adults. Has the analysis taken into account the food products consumed in those nations? Is it just that scientific measurement indicates cheese consumption is potentially wrong and that advertising should be restricted as a consequence?

The presentation presents a dilemma. I, like Deputy Ó Caoláin, hold the view that we should proceed according to the principle of moderation. As one who consumed cooled, chilled milk from the churn and who has eaten cheese all his life and realises the nutritional value of dairy products, including full-fat milk and cheese, I wonder whether we have abandoned the whole food pyramid. In tackling obesity, there is surely a moderate approach we can adopt. While Dr. Lithander's presentation was both excellent and challenging, we must be conscious of the fact that for years we have been highlighting the importance of dairy products as sources of calcium. I propose moderation rather than making a blanket statement that cheese is bad. I do not believe cheese is bad but I am not an expert either.

Dr. Fiona Lithander

I was asked about the intake, in grams per day, of cheese by Irish children. It is less than 20 per day. Two separate dietary surveys, carried out in recent years, have considered the dietary intake of teens and children. Therefore, there are many data available that show, in grams per day, the various food groups consumed. As far as I am aware, less than 20 per day is consumed by children. The data on my slide refer to levels per 100g of cheese. The reason I explained my point as I did is because the model dictates one takes 100g of a food or drink. Some of the experts in the United Kingdom who produced the model and who have since reviewed it have explored the possibility of a per-portion size model. They have also examined whether it is better to classify food and drink as healthy or less healthy depending on the portion size that is consumed by different individuals or different cohorts of the population. However, it was deemed that there would be no difference if one looked at the per portion size.

When the expert working group came up with its conclusions, it said that the dietary guidelines in Ireland have shown that for those aged over five years to achieve their goal with regard to saturated fat - which is that less than 10% of our total calories should come from saturated fat - cheese intake should be limited. The expert group also suggested that without limiting consumption of high-fat dairy products - not dairy products across the board but just the high-fat ones and cheese in particular - it is difficult for people to achieve that guideline with respect to saturated fat.

I have no information to dispute Dr. Lithander's figures but if the acknowledged average intake is one fifth of the figures as presented, it is important not to discount portion size as against the principle per se. I think portion size is critical. Where people take too much of anything, portion size is what it is all about. This is where the moderation factor I had argued for comes in. If people take a little across a range of different food choices, it is the right way. We can create serious alarm by suggesting simplistically to parents that cheese is no longer good for children. That is not the message we should give. We should talk about balanced, moderate choice. I could think of so many things other than cheese that might be worthier of this committee’s focus in terms of the negative impact on children’s health. That is my certain view, but I thank Dr. Lithander for sharing the information with me.

Dr. Fiona Lithander

I certainly agree with the Deputy's comment. The issue of portion size is a very important one, but it was examined by the expert panel in the UK. To have consistency, that panel took 100 grams of every food and drink item, and assessed their nutrient composition. Portion size is variable within populations and even within an age range, so it was deemed to be less suitable. The Deputy is right in that the foods we should be most interested in are those that are classified as less healthy, such as biscuits, cakes, confectionary and French fries. As per the model, all those foods get assigned as less healthy. It is just that cheese does have a significant amount of calories, saturated fat and salt, which is why the model determines it is as a less healthy food.

As regards Dr. Lithander's conclusion, would it be the case that if today's children had an insufficient intake of dairy and calcium, they would face difficulties in adulthood? If we adopted the model that prescribed, in some cases, banning cheese and declaring it unhealthy, would that not have long-term repercussions for calcium and dairy intake in time, leading into adulthood?

Irrespective of our viewpoints, the objective we are all striving for is to have a balanced diet, thus targeting childhood obesity. We must protect our children through food safety legislation or whichever model one wants to adopt. Surely there is an approach of moderation we can take, or is there?

Dr. Fiona Lithander

Moderation is certainly the key if we look at the public health concerns for children in Ireland today. The diseases associated with being overweight and obese, such as cardiovascular disease and type 2 diabetes, top the list for immediate health concerns for children in Ireland today and in the long term. I do not disagree with the Chairman that calcium is important but it is also important to note that there are low-fat and low-saturated fat alternatives for children to achieve their calcium intake.

I apologise to the committee for being late and not hearing the presentation. Having listened to other speakers, I recall Ms Edwina Currie's statement about eggs, which spread panic throughout England. I wonder if we are opening up another can of worms.

So do I. There are many reasons children should eat in moderation. It is about lifestyle and what they see around the family table. Unfortunately, family dinners are a thing of the past. Nowadays, people carry in trays to sit down and look at the television, including parents. If we are talking about nutrition, eating in moderation and watching what we eat, it is important that what is placed on the dinner table is as important as what is put in the lunch-box. I give credit to schools that organise breakfast clubs and afternoon clubs. A great variety of excellent food, including cheese, is provided to children at breakfast clubs and after-school programmes. Many children are conscious of what they are eating and they will not touch certain things at all. Nonetheless, we could be entering dangerous territory. We have seen television advertisements with the cheesy guy whose hair is flowing and the laughing cow. There must be some way of restricting advertising on television for food of questionable nutritional value.

Like other speakers, I grew up with the bottle of milk with cream on the top. There would be murder over who would get the first swipe from the bottle because the cream floated on top. It was the nicest part of the milk, but the last person to have breakfast was basically left with water. I am concerned that we should not make people panic when they are doing the weekend shopping and particularly over what they put in their children's lunch-boxes. Most people I speak to, including my nieces and nephews who have young children, are very conscious now. God be with the days when I was growing up; we never got an apple in the lunch-box. We got jam and bread and a carton of milk. Parents are now more conscious of the contents when filling up their children's lunch-boxes.

However, this presentation was somewhat scientific and I do not understand some of the material. I would be afraid that we might convey the message that cheese is not good to eat. As someone who was reared in the heart of Dublin on milk, cheese and butter, which was slapped together with pallets, it did not do me any harm, as far as I know. I am concerned that our approach might lead to a lot of fear. We are an agricultural country and it is said around the world that the best thing about our butter and cheese is that our cows graze on grass. I am worried that we will send out negative vibes. I am sorry I missed Dr. Lithander's presentation but I am talking about what I know as a parent.

I should make the point that the committee is not attempting to create panic and hysteria. We are responding to a discussion document presented by the BAI. We did not start the debate but we are responding to it. We are not in the business of creating panic. I take the Deputy's point that we are an agricultural country and have an obligation in that respect.

I thank Dr. Lithander for her comprehensive presentation. Even in the school programmes, are we really doing enough to educate the next generation on the types of foods that are good for us and the types we need to take in moderation? Do we need to develop a more comprehensive model for our schools? Education is about living, yet we seem to exclude many areas from our education programme, and while this is covered is some aspects of the school curriculum, it is not covered in the comprehensive way it should be. It should be developed through the Department of Education and Skills and through the school system. Perhaps Dr. Lithander could also provide guidelines on what is happening in the school programmes of other countries on this issue.

We all accept that we must address the issue of childhood obesity. Some of us received the scary statistic last week that the average 12 year old child today is three stone heavier than his or her grandparent was at the same age. We cannot ignore this significant problem. I am getting the experience of the education system at first hand, and it is pushing the healthy eating agenda. Kids are not allowed to bring unhealthy foods with them to school.

I would like to come back to my earlier question about the amount of calcium children are supposed to consume. What is the amount of low-fat yoghurt, milk and hard cheese they would have to consume to meet their targets on calcium intake?

One simple thing everybody could do - I believe Deputy Byrne suggested this - is to eat at the kitchen table. Previous generations have taken this for granted, but that simple step could alleviate the problems we are talking about.

This morning's edition of The Irish Times has a very good health supplement on nutrition for children, and I would advise members to get it.

Is that an advertisement?

I am sorry. I did not mean to be advertising, but it is a very good supplement.

There will be a photograph on the front page tomorrow.

Dr. Fiona Lithander

In response to Deputy Naughten's question on calcium from alternative sources such as low-fat yoghurt, milk and so on, slide No.10 contains the requirements. There is a table showing the dietary reference intake for calcium by life-stage group, which was published by the Institute of Medicine in 2006. The expert working group refers to this in its report. The dietary guidelines are such that children between nine and 18 years of age would need to consume 1,300 milligrams per day of calcium. In practical terms, a 200 millilitre glass of milk would provide about 240 milligrams of calcium. A 30 gram serving of cheese can provide anything between 130 milligrams and 400 milligrams of calcium, depending on the cheese. A 125 gram serving of yoghurt would provide about 250 milligrams of calcium. If a child were to consume one yoghurt and two glasses of milk, he or she would consume approximately 730 milligrams of calcium in one day. Children often put milk in their breakfast cereals, and milk can be incorporated into things like lattes or smoothies, so it is not just a case of drinking a glass of milk. I take the Deputy's point that in practical terms, for children to receive the recommended amount of calcium, the alternative sources may be an issue. However, those alternatives are low in fat and low in saturated fat, which is important.

I did not get an answer to my last question. Are there any statistics which show if there are what we might call good nations in respect of the dietary experience of their children? What happens to the advertising of cheese in those nations? Have we looked at those nations?

Dr. Fiona Lithander

My brief today was to talk about the nutritional composition of dairy products and talk about the model proposed in the Irish context, so I cannot comment on other nations. However, obesity is a global problem and not just a problem in Ireland. We need to act because it is a big problem here. We have already had a look at the statistics, but I cannot comment on other countries.

Are we doing enough in our school curriculum? I know it is not Dr. Lithander's particular area, but from her own general knowledge, does she think we should do more in the school programme about education in this area?

Dr. Fiona Lithander

Again, it is not quite my area of expertise. The current research states that children in Ireland are eating too much saturated fat, too many calories, too much salt and too much sugar. The dietary guidelines in place encourage children to choose foods that are low in fat, saturated fat and sugar, and eat protected foods such as fruit and vegetables. Perhaps there is an issue in respect of education, but the guidelines are certainly not being met.

Dr. Lithander is basically saying that to prevent obesity, we have to cut back on high fat, salt and sugar. Have I summed it up?

Dr. Fiona Lithander

Yes.

We brought her in here today to state that.

Dr. Fiona Lithander

Nutrition is very important with respect to obesity.

Before we finish, I would like to thank Dr. Lithander for coming in. Nutrition is very important. The issue of childhood obesity and food safety is of critical importance. How we achieve a balanced diet is essential. This morning we have seen that there is a growing incidence of diabetes, heart disease and obesity. This is having a profound impact on education standards for our children and on health and fitness. There is a consensus that we need to change our eating habits, by eating healthier foods and reducing salt and sugar intake. I remain sceptical about the cheese issue, but we can debate that in private. I sincerely thank Dr. Lithander once again for coming in and giving us an excellent presentation this morning.

The joint committee went into private session at 1.10 p.m. and adjourned at 1.20 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Thursday, 13 October 2011.
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