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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN debate -
Thursday, 8 Dec 2011

Health Issues: Discussion (Resumed)

Apologies have been received from Deputies Michael Colreavy and Derek Keating and Senators Imelda Henry and Marc MacSharry.

There is one item on the agenda, our resumed discussion with the Minister for Health, Deputy James Reilly, and the chief executive officer of the HSE, Mr. Cathal Magee. Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. If they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they do not criticise or make charges against any person or persons or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they do not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome the Minister for Health and Mr. Magee. There are 17 people in attendance which is extraordinary. I hope we can reduce this number for future meetings because we do not need so many in attendance. However, I thank everyone for coming. We are resuming our discussion and have heard opening remarks from the Minister, Mr. Magee and Opposition spokespersons. Deputies Ó Caoláin and Healy, the Minister and Mr. Magee will have an opportunity at the end of the meeting to make closing statements. I call Deputy Maloney to pose the question he submitted to the committee.

I thank the Chairman and, like him, welcome the Minister and his departmental officials and Mr. Magee and his staff from the HSE. I have a number of questions which it might not be possible to answer today. However, I am not a puritan and will have no difficulty in receiving written answers instead. All of my questions are related to Ireland's busiest hospital, Tallaght hospital.

I seek clarification about the appointment of two radiologists. I know progress has been made, but when will they commence work in the hospital?

Will the Minister tell me if the appointment of the new board means the appointment of new members or personnel? Will its members be people from the defunct board? When will the new board for Tallaght Hospital be established?

On the upgrading of the CT equipment, on which I do not expect the Minister to have information other than that it broke down again last weekend, when will the upgrading of that equipment take place? Is there any date on the appointments of the director of quality and the director of operations for Tallaght hospital?

I ask also about an issue we touched on prior to last month's meeting, that is, the Health Service Executive and Chambers House.

On the employment of non-consultant hospital doctors, NCHDs, I understand from the Irish Medical News that from January 2012 there will be 438 vacancies. The answer I received previously indicated that already there were 72 vacancies and 128 agency doctors, therefore, 200 posts were not filled in real terms because agency doctors were filling 128 posts. What progress has been made in ensuring there will be no vacancies after 11 January, which is the start date?

I understand there is a problem in the assignment of doctors under the India and Pakistan recruitment process. Many of the hospitals in country areas are complaining there is little or no consultation with them as regards who is assigned to their hospital and that the best doctors are being located in the Dublin region. There are many complaints that there is little or no consultation about the type of doctor they require to fill a post in a particular part of the team in their hospitals. They make the point that in the smaller hospitals the rota of consultants is a one in two or a one in three rota, which means there are far more demands on junior doctors. The best possible standard is required in those hospitals but there are general complaints from hospitals in the regions outside Dublin.

My next question is to the Minister. The VHI in the Cork area has refused to give cover to a new hospital which is ready to open. At a time when there is a need to cut the cost of medical care I understand that the people who were prepared to work in this hospital have now advised the VHI that they are prepared to do so at a rate 6% below the current charges being quoted by one of the bigger hospitals in Cork. We need competition in private health care and the VHI's decision is not helping that in terms of reducing costs. Will the Minister indicate if any progress has been made on that issue with the VHI?

We will take those two questions together and I will then call Deputy Healy and Deputy Ó Caoláin.

I will refer most of the questions relating to Tallaght Hospital to the HSE because they are technical local issues. I will also ask the agency's Mr. McGrath to deal with Senator Burke's questions on non-consultant hospital doctors, NCHDs.

On the question about Cork and the VHI, one of the concerns was that it was more expensive. If it is now offering a 6% reduction across the board in terms of costs versus other competitors in the area, the VHI has to examine that. That makes sense from the consumer's point of view in terms of having a wider range of choice and from the taxpayer's point of view in terms of cost containment. I will revert to the Senator on that.

Mr. Cathal Magee

Regarding radiologist posts which were recommended as an outcome of the Hayes investigation, the approval for and funding of those posts will be in the context of the service plan for 2012 where, based on the funding allocated, decisions will have to be made about the priorities that will apply regarding quite a number of clinical posts approved across the system. We recognise the need for them and the question is whether we can secure the funding for Tallaght Hospital and have it in place in the plan for 2012.

Regarding the director of quality and director of operations posts, those have been approved and I understand a recruitment process is under way. The new chief executive of Tallaght Hospital is engaged in building a new management team and strengthening that team, and we have been supportive of that process.

Regarding Chambers House, we will write to the Deputy on that and on the question of the CT equipment. Mr. Gilroy might comment on the capital equipment.

Mr. Brian Gilroy

On the capital equipment for Tallaght Hospital, in recent weeks we released approvals totalling €3.7 million for equipment. This list was prioritised in conjunction with Tallaght Hospital based on the current state of the equipment and its performance. There is a further approval early in the new year for close to €4 million worth of equipment, with a later replacement programme through to 2013. The equipment the Deputy referred to is included in the current approval for 2011.

Mr. Cathal Magee

I will ask Mr. McGrath to comment on Deputy Maloney's question on the NCHD issues.

Mr. Sean McGrath

For the January rotation, which is around the service posts, we are projecting that the number of posts that potentially will be vacant is 52. They are primarily in emergency departments, psychiatry and general surgery. Regarding emergency medicine in particular, it is in the registrar appointments rather than the senior house officers, SHOs, which is a feature not just in Ireland but in western Europe. At this stage we project no service impact on running emergency departments, EDs, for January and we are examining other international recruitment initiatives solely for ED registrars. We will be able to cover them in regard to agency doctors. The Deputy asked about the numbers of agency workers we have in the system. It will always be a feature of the employment of NCHDs to have some element of agency work, and currently we have 43 agency doctors in emergency medicine practising in the system.

Can Mr. McGrath give us a guarantee that we will avoid a repetition of what happened last summer in the filling of the posts Senator Burke mentioned?

Mr. Sean McGrath

Two issues arise. First, the rotation generally is relatively small compared with July because we are only looking at the service posts. In total, we are looking at just over 500 posts rather than the 4,800 that typically would rotate, which is in July. I have been informed by the service managers that currently fewer issues arise for January 2012 than we would have previously, and we will be able to cover that either by way of agency doctors or international recruitment.

On the agency matter, an article in one of this morning's newspapers states that the agency costs in Navan hospital were €471,000 for the month of October alone.

Mr. Sean McGrath

Yes, it is significant.

Will we have a reduction in agency costs between 1 January and, say, the end of June 2012?

Mr. Sean McGrath

Certainly in an emergency. On the agency model, we brought in a new tender last year for NCHDs to reduce the cost of agency doctors. The new EU directive will increase that and therefore if we continue using the same amount of agency work we will increase the cost of it. The intention, certainly regarding emergency medicine where there is significant cost, is that we would try to do some other intervention because we cannot get it through traditional means. That is our main focus.

The issue I raised was consultation at local level on the assignment of NCHDs about which there have been many complaints. I have got a number of calls from hospitals throughout the country concerned about the lack of consultation.

Mr. Sean McGrath

That is regarding the deployment of the India-Pakistan cohort. I have not got any formal complaints. I can discuss this later with the Senator if there are particular concerns over certain hospitals. What we sought to do was deploy doctors in regard to specialty need and vacancies that existed. We also sought to address some of the overtime issues and EWTD issues. Invariably, there is some resistance to changing overtime rosters at local level. If the Senator has specific issues in mind, I will work on them afterwards.

How are we progressing with a view to avoiding next summer what occurred last summer? What is the position on relations with the Irish Medical Council's examination in light of the memorandum that was signed?

Mr. Sean McGrath

The Irish Medical Council's second round of examinations is finishing tomorrow for the last cohort of Indian and Pakistani doctors. Our interventions and legislative changes will assist us significantly next July. There will always be issues over service posts, not training posts. That is actually associated with ED.

I apologise to Deputy Maloney as I forgot to answer his question on the board in Tallaght. The question concerned whether it would constitute new members entirely or a mixture of old and new. There will be a mixture of both. Some members may continue to serve. I cannot say with certainty because some are nominees from the various parties concerned with the running of the hospital. The archbishop, for instance, has the right to nominate a number of people. So, too, have some of foundations such as the Adelaide Hospital Society. There will certainly be a new chairman on the board and a new person in charge of financial considerations. The correct term is "finance committee" rather than "audit committee" because I believe "audit" relates more to clinical auditing.

Is there a timetable?

The new interim board will be in place by the end of this month; there is no question about that. However, the full statutory board will be put in place in the middle of next year. It does require legislation.

In regard to NCHD issues, it is a question of having additional staff available. People drop out every year because of sickness and maternity leave. Is there any plan to employ additional people where there is a high drop-out rate during the year? In emergency medicine, there is a shortage at present. Is it possible to recruit more doctors than required so the vacancies can be filled when they arise without one having to go through an agency?

Mr. Brian Gilroy

That certainly ought to be the direction of travel for us in emergency medicine. The growth in NCHDs will certainly be supported by the intervention of Indian and Pakistani doctors. Thus, we will have a cohort we can use over a two-year period.

I thank the Chairman for allowing me to contribute out of sequence. Unfortunately, I must leave early.

In a previous debate, I raised the question of the report that Ms McGuinness has confirmed in writing will be on the HSE's website on 14 December.

From whom did the Deputy receive confirmation?

Ms McGuinness. I welcome the report's publication.

My first question arises from the Minister's presentation on the last occasion, matters that have arisen since and the Minister's press conference following the Budget Statement on Monday. It concerns community hospitals. What will be the exact position on community hospitals in the coming year? My recollection is that the Minister mentioned that as many as 40 may close. We had a list of these published in a daily paper, last week I believe. Is there such a list? If so, how was it compiled? If there is none, is there one in preparation? What are the criteria for the selection of the hospitals? None of them should close. I would like clarification on this issue.

My second question arises from the Budget Statement. It concerns a matter that affects health services particularly. While it might appear to be a relatively minor issue, the significant cut of 66% in the grant for sponsors of community employment schemes-----

That concerns the Department of Social Protection rather than the Department of Health.

No. It concerns us because a significant number of the schemes deal specifically with disability, meals on wheels and other community services. The provision of those community services helps to take the pressure off hospital services and obviously ensures that people can live longer in their own communities with a better quality of life. This is of significant benefit to the State's health services. If the reduction goes ahead, it will have serious effects on many of the schemes. Many may face closure. There is a very small amount of money involved and I ask the Minister to intervene to have the cut reversed. It affects services directly and the people availing of them. It puts further pressure on State services.

To clarify, I do not believe community employment schemes fall within the remit of the Minister for Health.

The point I am making is that the services provided-----

I know the point the Deputy is making.

-----are in the health area. They certainly take significant pressure off the health services.

I appreciate that.

I refer to meals on wheels and disabilities. In Cashel, a significant number of people are involved in the disability services under these schemes.

I appreciate that.

I welcome the Minister, Mr. Magee and their colleagues.

Let me consider the responses to my questions Nos. 2, 3 and 23, particularly the supplementary responses. The written answer to the question on bed closures is quite extraordinary. The figures in the written reply raise more questions than answers. The reply states that, between June 2010 and June 2011, there was a reduction of 235 beds. It states the beds closed for so-called "cost containment" in October 2011, at which time there were 774 beds compared with 821 in October of the previous year. I find it very hard to interpret those figures. The answer, I suspect, is in the riddle that presented itself in a reply I received earlier to a parliamentary question. It begged the question as to when a bed is not a bed. The response suggested that when beds are closed, they cease to be counted as beds at all. There is a huge discrepancy here. The HSE has accepted the INMO figures on trolley usage but the gap between what the HSE and Department acknowledge in regard to closed acute hospital site beds and what is claimed by the INMO is major. I am trying to determine where the difference arises. Could the delegates please account for the gap between the INMO figures and those of the HSE? Is the answer in the riddle presented in the Department's earlier reply to the effect that when a bed is closed, it is no longer a bed?

In the context of the signalled significant cuts now to be imposed in the upcoming year, could the Minister estimate the number of beds that will close as a result of the cutting of further hundreds of millions of euro from the health budget in 2012?

On question No. 3, on the cost of medicines, I welcome the fact that some progress has been made in this area and that there is acceptance that much more needs to be done. Do we know how much has been saved through the 40% reduction cited with regard to the agreement with the IPHA in February 2010? Are we in a position to answer that? Do we know how much of the €200 million in savings for 2011, arising from the further measures agreed with the IPHA, has now been realised or will be delivered upon by the end of this month?

What will be done to reduce further the cost of medicines for patients? I recently received information on certain medicines from an Irish citizen living in Spain. The Irish position is that under the State scheme, his monthly medicines would now cost €132, which by coincidence matches the new thresholds just announced for the drug payment scheme for the forthcoming year. The price of the same branded, I emphasise branded and not generic, drugs at retail cost in Spain is €52. This is a gap of €80 on the same medicine prescription and under Spain's universal drug scheme for all citizens, it actually only costs €20. Does the Minister acknowledge this combined greed, whether it is from the producers or distributors, results in this State, the Minister's budget and people as patients being obliged to pay such an inordinately higher level for the same branded drugs than is the case in other European Union member states?

Finally, I refer to question No. 23, which is specific to my own constituency and is on a matter that certainly is close to my heart. The Minister's reply states he has commissioned a clinical and financial feasibility study on the setting up of a medical assessment unit, MAU. This is something he already advised me and other colleagues that he is keenly interested in. The timeframe from 17 November was six to eight weeks. Can the Minister advise as to the report's current status? Is it complete, has the Minister received it and when will he publish it? Will progress be evident on the establishment of the MAU in the forthcoming year?

I have reached my last two points but I reiterate my call for the restoration of the hours taken from the minor injuries unit. These hours should be restored. The Minister's reply refers to patient activity levels and risk assessment but the bottom line of course is the hours have been cut because of cost containment and this has been acknowledged in the reply. Does the Minister not accept that as an elected representative and as someone who depends on that service, I am really concerned for even the remaining hours of attendance at the minor injuries unit in Monaghan General Hospital, if all that is required to take such a sweeping decision is an assessment of patient activity levels, etc.? If, ultimately, this is about cost containment and the throughput, the Minister could swing the axe entirely and close the damn thing from right underneath our feet. It is the very last critical service onto which people in Monaghan have been able to hold. I urge the Minister and the HSE to revisit the hours in respect of the aforementioned minor injuries unit.

In respect of the issue of Monaghan General Hospital vis-à-vis Cavan General Hospital, and Mr. Magee undoubtedly also will be keenly interested in this, from Monday next the admissions unit at St. Davnet’s Hospital, Monaghan, will be closed and all acute medical admissions will move to Cavan General Hospital. The former Minister of State in the then Department of Health and Children, Mr. John Moloney, acknowledged to me on the floor of the Dáil Chamber that the alternative, namely, the basement area in Cavan General Hospital, was not suitable. It was an unsuitable and unsatisfactory alternative to the St. Davnet’s complex because of its very nature, being a basement area, for acute mental health patients. Nevertheless, the Minister is continuing to pursue this line of address. The former Minister of State, Mr. Moloney, was absolutely right. He was an outspoken and, at times, a welcome breath of fresh air in the area of mental health and was one of the few within the last Government who actually shone on occasion. I find the Minister’s continuation with something he acknowledged to be unsatisfactory and unsuitable is most worrying. I ask that this proposal be revisited.

The final point in the Minster's reply to me states the decision to remove the rapid response vehicle was made because of the unavailability of sufficient numbers of pre-hospital thrombolysis-qualified advanced paramedics. To what do the Minister or the chief executive officer of the Health Service Executive attribute this unavailability? Is it the case that the HSE sought to recruit such qualified advance paramedics or does this also fall under the recruitment embargo that has had such a devastating effect on front-line services?

I thank the Deputy and invite the Minister and Mr. Magee to respond.

There were many final questions followed by further questions, fair play to the Deputy. I will ask Mr. Magee to comment on bed closures and bed numbers because he is far closer to that issue than am I. Similarly, he will comment on how much was saved by the 40% proposal in respect of drugs.

The Deputy also asked me what else will be done to try to reduce the drugs costs and I accept thoroughly his point regarding the great disparity between the cost of drugs here and elsewhere in Europe. The Deputy mentioned Spain but sometimes one does not need to go that far; one need only cross the Border to find a huge disparity. We certainly intend to address this through three means. We will reduce the price of generic drugs, we will introduce reference pricing, for which there will be legislation in the first half of next year, and we will negotiate with the drug companies that produce the branded products to reduce the price thereof in this country.

As for the issue pertaining to the medical assessment unit, both the Deputy and I are aware that a group representing all the interested stakeholders will meet in this regard. It will report to us and I await its report. On the issue regarding the hours of the minor injuries unit, the Deputy correctly pointed out they were reduced for cost considerations. However, I have stated this would be reviewed in the new year when we have a new budget to deal with.

As for St. Davnet's, mental health issues are looked after by the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch. It is an area in which I have a particular interest myself but obviously I do not have the same degree of nationwide knowledge as does she. However, Ms Laverne McGuinness is in attendance and will answer the Deputy's question in this regard. In addition, Mr. Magee can address the question regarding the rapid response vehicle.

Mr. Cathal Magee

To follow up on Deputy Ó Caoláin's questions in respect of the cost of drugs and the recoupment thereof, the HSE had a target of €200 million. It was made up of a number of elements, including the cost of distribution but the core number was €140 million, targeted at the reduction of actual prices at a manufacturing level. As I stated at my last meeting with the joint committee, the HSE is confident it has delivered on the overall target for savings. However, the timing of some of them has been delayed. There are still outstanding balances regarding the €140 million from a number of companies that we are actively pursuing between now and the end of December. There is a daily contact with some of these companies in cases in which the HSE believes refunds are due under the agreement into which we entered. However, we are confident it can be delivered. As the Minister stated, this issue is a priority for next year. The agreement with the Irish Pharmaceutical Healthcare Association is up for review from next March. We have asked the ESRI to help us to review some of the elements of cost, particularly pertaining to distribution, as well as some of the core pricing structures that are in place. We expect its report to be forwarded to both the Minister and the HSE shortly and it will form the basis for future negotiations. As the Deputy stated, this is a key area of cost and in comparative terms with OECD benchmarks, Ireland is an outlier in respect of expenditure per capita on drugs and this is a function of both price and volume.

I will ask my colleague, Ms Laverne McGuinness, to respond further in respect of both beds and the mental health issue regarding St. Davnet's.

Ms Laverne McGuinness

In respect of beds and the closure of beds, Deputy Ó Caoláin is correct. There has been a wide interpretation of what constitutes a closed bed, although one might think it is quite simple. For example, some seven-day beds have been reduced to five and hospitals were interpreting them as being closed beds, when in fact they were only closed for two days. We carried out an audit of all the beds in June and have put forward a definition to be used by all hospitals as to what actually is and defines a closed bed. While the data are being collected and will be published by the end of the year, I can state there are approximately 1,100 closed beds in the system at present.

Will Ms McGuinness share a definition with us?

Ms Laverne McGuinness

Yes. The definition is if a bed is not available for use.

Would Ms McGuinness not accept the simple understanding that if one withdraws a bed from an existing cohort of availability, one has removed it?

Ms Laverne McGuinness

Beds are closed for different reasons. They are not closed solely for cost containment purposes. Beds are also closed for infection control purposes, if there is an outbreak of a virus, or for refurbishment. Therefore, there are temporary bed closures as well as permanent ones in the system, and at times of overflow they have to be reopened. That is what introduces a level of complexity into the system.

To be fair, Ms McGuinness, the terminology and language that is used at times, by whoever, lends to confusion. If there is clarity in the language used, everyone - whether patients, service users or members of this committee - can gain an understanding of it. Part of the malaise we have is that we are using bubble-speak that we do not understand and is not explained. Maybe that might bring clarity to people beyond here, who will read what we are saying.

I am including ourselves, yes.

I thank the Chairman for his support.

Ms Laverne McGuinness

That data will be available when it is published in December this year.

Will that detail be forwarded to all members of the committee?

Ms Laverne McGuinness

Absolutely. It will be available at the end of the year.

It would make the HSE's job easier in terms of driving reform, bringing about good management and informing people. At times, communication in the health service is bureaucratic-speak that many people do not understand. The language we use can bring people with us in explaining how we are delivering a good service. I hope Ms McGuinness will bear that in mind. I am sorry for interrupting you, my apologies.

Ms Laverne McGuinness

Deputy Ó Caoláin's other point concerned the medical assessment unit in Monaghan, and the report and reviews being carried out by Mr. James Hayes. I met with him last Monday week and the report has not been concluded, as yet. However, I will contact the Deputy in the next week or two with a date of completion. Mr. Hayes is doing a thorough assessment. I furnished the committee with the names of the other members on the review group, because they were requested. I have sent those on and they are available to members of the committee.

As regards the Deputy's query on St. Davnet's, that is a very old facility. Under A Vision for Change, which is our strategic mental health policy document, we have a mission to close old facilities and to move people to more appropriate settings for acute admissions or, indeed, the community where that is appropriate. St. Davnet's will cease admissions and there is now a fine facility in Cavan General Hospital. I visited the clinical director there last week and it is a superb facility. If Deputy Ó Caoláin wants to visit there, we can certainly make that arrangement.

Ms Laverne McGuinness

It is very homely with holistic care pathways.

It is in the basement.

Ms Laverne McGuinness

It is down a level.

Is it not in the basement?

Ms Laverne McGuinness

It is down a level, yes. The Deputy is correct.

A former Minister of State acknowledged that that is not the environment that is most conducive or appropriate for people presenting with acute mental health issues.

Ms Laverne McGuinness

As regards patients presenting with acute medical difficulties, it is more appropriate if they are seen in an acute hospital setting. That is where they have been located, in an acute hospital setting. The Deputy is correct in saying they are on the lower ground floor or the basement, if he wishes to say that. However, the facility is absolutely superb. It is one of our finest facilities for acute mental health admissions, if the Deputy wishes to see it. It is well kitted out and is providing a holistic atmosphere for the patients who will attend there. It is far superior to the service that would have been offered in St. Davnet's Hospital.

While I acknowledge that it is modern and new, and St. Davnet's was of another time, the setting of St. Davnet's - in an open green space with light coming through at all times - was most encouraging and far more conducive for people presenting with acute mental illness. An investment in a new, developed facility would have been more appropriately located there than in the basement of a general hospital.

Ms Laverne McGuinness

It is more appropriate that persons requiring acute psychiatric care should do so on the grounds of an acute medical hospital. That is the best code of practice, rather than being isolated in a rural setting.

Mr. Cathal Magee

I will ask Mr. Gilroy to deal with the rapid response.

Mr. Brian Gilroy

Cavan General Hospital is on a hill so the unit opens onto grounds at the rear. Although at the entrance one has to come down a step, most of unit is at ground level to the rear. I would hate the perception to be that it is purely a basement. In the report A Vision for Change, we spent a lot of time going through this destigmatisation by bringing units onto acute hospital sites. One cannot have rolling green fields and loads of space, and be in the centre of an acute hospital. That had to be weighed up in all the units where we have done that.

The rapid response vehicle in Monaghan is not an issue around the moratorium or anything like it. The problem is that to train advanced paramedics to the level required to man that service on an ongoing basis, it takes about a two year lead-in time. When we put in place the service, it was using existing resources from a much wider region. Over a period of time, unfortunately, we ended up in a scenario where we had only two people who were trying to deliver that service around the clock. It is no reflection on the people who have put in enormous hours to try to sustain the service, but it is unsafe for two people to provide an around-the-clock service. It is our intention to reach that point but there is a long lead-in time to get in advanced paramedics. It is not a moratorium issue, it concerns the training time for advanced paramedics.

This was a key component of the final closure of all acute services at Monaghan General Hospital, yet now it is being taken away as well. It shows that there is no prioritisation of people's needs. That there were only X number of responses needed in relation to such situations does not in any way excuse the decision to take away the rapid responder.

Mr. Brian Gilroy

There is no other way of doing it. The problem is that the service got reduced to two. If it were done on the closure of the hospital by redeploying as many people as possible, to start a service after that, for domestic reasons, individuals could not sustain that level of redeployment over a period. We ended up in a scenario where we had only two advanced paramedics.

I will say a couple of words before letting Mr. Magee in. The first point concerns the 66% cut to sponsors but, as the Chairman has pointed out, this area is not under my control. Nonetheless, I do understand the concerns.

I have made it clear that some community nursing units will have to close, and that there are reductions around the country. The Department and the HSE will have to meet to review the situation fully and to examine the criteria that will be used. I am happy that we have met with some groups and that alternative proposals are being put on the table which we can examine. There is a rule of thumb, which Mr. Magee will confirm however, that any unit of less than 50 beds is difficult to maintain from a financial viewpoint. Without saying any more and knowing that some agreement was reached in a recent court case, I will hand over to Mr. Magee.

Mr. Cathal Magee

The Department of Health has instigated a review of the public provision of long-stay residential nursing care. We are in dialogue with the Department in the context of putting together the service plan for 2012, based on the funding and manpower targets set in that plan. As we discussed briefly at the previous meeting, there are three significant challenges facing the public provision of community residential nursing care. They include funding and the contraction of funding that has taken place and the moratorium and the impact on manpower levels within the service. As I said at the last meeting, staff costs in long-stay residential units make up between 85% and 90% of total costs. Therefore, any reductions in funding fall disproportionately on the staff element. That has been the experience over recent years. As a consequence, there is a high proportion of agency people involved in the provision of staff services in long-stay nursing units. These are unfunded and unbudgeted, and are part of the deficit challenge we face even in the current year.

At the last meeting, we also discussed the issue of standards, including HIQA standards. Capital investment in refurbishment costs is a longer-term issue. We have a very challenging service plan to put together next year, particularly given the funding available for headcount and resources. In the published documentation from the Department for Finance the targeted manpower reduction in the health service in 2012 is 3,200. This will present significant challenges in terms of how we can properly and satisfactorily staff community nursing units. It may even necessitate consolidation, but no decisions have yet been made. The process will involve discussions with the Department which will feed into the development of the service plan for 2012. Arising from the recent court decision on Abbeyleix nursing home, in any case in which there is a proposal to close a unit we will initiate a consultation process during a defined time period of at least 12 weeks. When the service plan is completed, we will be in a better position to communicate with the committee on its elements.

It is important to remember we are dealing with people. We must avoid what happened at Abbeyleix and ensure the Health Service Executive communicates in an open, transparent, effective and clear manner. Many committee members are concerned about the way in which we are using language. Language is critical. I appreciate that the service plan will have to deal with a moratorium on recruitment and a contraction of funding. However, I hope the Minister, the Department and the HSE will discuss the moratorium because one size does not fit all in various health services. What is the comparative year for the targeted reduction of 3,200?

Mr. Cathal Magee

The targeted reduction set out by the Department of Finance is 3,200. Given the mandated reductions in pay costs under the moratorium and the need to make further savings, we estimate it will be at least a minimum of 3,200 to meet the financial targets set. I acknowledge we are discussing this issue in the context of plans, budgets, financial numbers and a manpower headcount and accept that it will have a significant impact on providing safe, quality nursing care in a manner our people with responsibility for service delivery would want. There will be significant tension around our ability to sustain services based on the manpower and financial projections for 2012.

To what year are we going back to compare the level of service?

Mr. Cathal Magee

The 3,200 figure is based on the outturn for this year. It is the targeted reduction in funding around pay costs for 2012 over 2011.

How much of the 3,200 figure for staff reductions for next year will be met by early retirements in February 2012?

Mr. Cathal Magee

As the Minister said, it is difficult to project and anticipate the level of take-up in terms of exits and retirements before the end of February 2012. We have had about 4,000 inquiries about the February retirement option, 25% of whom we believe will follow through to retirement. This figure of 1,000 retirees could even go higher. We will have a better indication of the turnout in early January 2012.

At the time of the last review on 24 November the Minister said he would ask Dr. Devlin to respond on the matter I had raised concerning the report on coronary death rates at Roscommon County Hospital and other accident and emergency departments across the country. Unfortunately, there was no opportunity to give a response on that day. Can this issue be dealt with today?

Also at the time of the last review the Minister stated he hoped to have news about the roll-out of a national air ambulance service. What is the timescale involved? Does the Minister plan to put the project to tender?

I thank Mr. Magee for informing the committee of consultation processes regarding the closure or consolidation of community nursing units. It was not right that three elderly patients at Abbeyleix nursing home had to go before the courts to force the HSE into initiating a consultation process regarding its closure. There are several lists circulating regarding the future of these facilities which is causing much concern around the country. Even if we received some indication as to what facilities were being considered, it would help to provide some clarity.

The opening of several community nursing units is planned next year, including one in Ballinamore, County Leitrim which will need capital investment. Will they have to go back to the drawing board because the majority are 50-bed units or less? Will they be shelved? What is the status of new capital investment in this regard?

I have already raised the matter of who took the decision to close the accident and emergency department in Roscommon County Hospital. I understand there is an ongoing appeal concerning a freedom of information request on the matter. However, it is a simple question. Going on Mr. Magee's response at the time of the last review, it seems no formal decision was made regarding the closure of the department. Is that the case? Based on what happened at Abbeyleix nursing home and in the case of McKillen v. NAMA, there is a legal obligation on the State to make a decision on such closures. Was a decision taken? Who took it? Under what legislation was it made?

Mr. Cathal Magee

Regarding the new community nursing units, including the one in Ballinamore, County Leitrim, we are proceeding with our capital investment programme as approved and set out.

Will this include 50-bed units or less?

Mr. Cathal Magee

Yes, they will proceed, including the unit at Ballinamore. We have examined how we can operate these units viably in accordance with an acceptable cost agenda. This year we had a challenge in opening a new community nursing unit in Ballincollig, County Cork. If we had opened it using existing HSE cost structures, it would have cost a little over €7 million a year. Under the Croke Park agreement and through negotiations with staff unions, an operator contract was put in place with an operating cost of €5.2 million. On one unit we saved almost €2 million in operational costs. We are not saying that is the solution we want to replicate in all other community nursing units, but in the public provision of such units we must face up to the cost challenges on a per unit and an overall basis and operate them on the most cost effective basis possible. That could include using external operators, which is something that will be a key part of our negotiations and discussions within the Croke Park agreement framework. The staff unions and associations have been mature in recognising the cost differential. If the HSE is to remain significantly involved in the provision of public nursing care in the longer term, these cost issues must be confronted. At the previous meeting I stated that under the fair deal scheme the average cost of placement in a private nursing home was approximately €850, whereas in a public unit it is closer to €1,300 and, in some cases, is as high as €1,600 or €1,700. We will have the infrastructure built and then must look at how we operate units in a cost-effective way benchmarked against private as well as public sector standards.

There are a number of other issues. Dr. Martin will deal with the mortality rate issue raised in the report to which Deputy Naughten referred with reference to Dr. Devlin.

The roll-out of the helicopter emergency medical service which I first mooted in June-July has been under consideration since. I will ask Mr. Gilroy to update the committee on the matter.

Dr. Jennifer Martin

I thank the committee for giving me the opportunity to comment on the report. I might clarify that the report we are finalising looks at quality indicators or the potential for using the high data system or the biggest data system in the country that collects information from all hospitals. While one of the indicators at which we are looking is mortality rates after a heart attack, the aim of the report is to look at the quality of the data, not the care provided.

On the timing of the report, the reason it has been somewhat delayed is that when we went to a number of hospitals in which a good deal of work was done in looking at the data which add a great deal of information and learning to the report, there were some unforeseen time delays which we are still working through with the HSE and hospitals. We hope to have the report finalised shortly.

Will it be finalised very shortly?

Dr. Jennifer Martin

It will be finalised as soon as we can clarify the issues involved with the HSE and hospitals.

The reason I ask is that in July we were told the report would be available "very shortly". Will it be another six months?

Dr. Jennifer Martin

When we went to hospitals they had done much of the work themselves which accounts for an entire second aspect of the report which people will appreciate really adds learning to it. We are much closer and I hope the report will be available very shortly.

Briefly.

-----Dr. Martin has stated the assessment was related to the quality of data, not the care provided, but the contents of the report have been used in assessing the quality of care provided in Roscommon County Hospital, as the committee will be aware from the debates in the Dáil and here.

Dr. Jennifer Martin

While the report never aimed to do so, when a number came up in relation to Roscommon County Hospital, it would not have been in the interests of patient safety to ignore it and say, "Yes, we are convinced it is due to the quality of data." Subsequent analysis and work undertaken by the hospital highlighted limitations in the quality of data and have been more reassuring on the quality of care provided.

That is an important point. Does that mean we will have an opportunity to correct the Dáil record as regards the data provided? I am sure the Minister did it in good faith; I am not questioning that aspect. The data were related to the quality of care and what Dr. Martin is telling the committee is that following their reassessment, particularly the data for Roscommon County Hospital, in terms of the question marks over it and the scale of the issue of quality of care, the impression given will not match what will be in the report. That is a serious matter regarding the information given in the Dáil at the time on the closure of the accident and emergency department at Roscommon County Hospital. I seek clarity in that regard, as it was such a fundamental issue in the public debate on the matter.

Dr. Jennifer Martin

The report will show that the information input by hospitals into the HIPE system was reported on in the Dáil. The same numbers are in the report.

Mr. Brian Gilroy

On the air ambulance service, we are in detailed discussions with a number of providers. The question of when we will go to the market will be answered at some stage in January because, as well as evaluating suppliers, we are also evaluating the scope of the service to be provided. It is also worth pointing out that it will not be a 24-7 all-weather service; therefore, ground solutions are equally important.

Is it planned to go to tender?

Please, Deputy-----

I am sure Mr. Magee would like to answer the question I asked him. Does the HSE plan to go to tender? Is that the intention?

Mr. Brian Gilroy

There are a number of scenarios at which we are looking. We will be out in public in January with the solution.

Mr. Cathal Magee

On Deputy Naughten's questions on Roscommon County Hospital and the closure of the 24-7 accident and emergency service, I confirmed the position at the previous meeting that at its meeting on 23 June the board had taken the decision and that the following day discussions had taken place with the Minister on it. The decision is in accordance with the Health Acts, particularly the Health Act 2004.

The Deputy has been in a good deal. Other members are waiting and have been patient.

All I want to know is the following. Is Mr. Magee satisfied that there will not be a situation similar to the one in Abbeyleix yesterday, that if there is a challenge, there could be a question mark over the decision? I seek clarity on that issue.

Mr. Cathal Magee

There has been legal correspondence with the HSE on Roscommon County Hospital and I do not wish to comment further, but the two situations are not comparable.

I welcome the Minister, Mr. Magee and the officials. On the last occasion I asked for an update on the position at St. Joseph's nursing home, Ardee and the college hospital in Drogheda. The written reply I received stated community nursing units across the country were being reviewed.

I apologise for interrupting the Deputy, but a vote has been called in the Dáil. We will suspend the sitting until after the vote. Is that acceptable to the Deputy?

Sitting suspended at 11.10 a.m. and resumed at 11.30 a.m.

I wish to raise an issue with the Minister while we wait for Deputy Fitzpatrick to return. In the light of the questionable proposal made by VHI to increase its prices, people are concerned about the escalating cost of private health insurance and I hope the Minister can reassure the public in this regard. People are worried about the prospect of seeing their premiums increase on foot of newspaper reports on VHI. They are asking why costs are increasing so rapidly and what VHI is playing at.

I have heard these assertions and, as I stated in the Dáil yesterday, see little basis for supporting such a major hike in premiums. The impact of public hospital charges for private beds is likely to be much less than 4%. Clearly, there will be further implications later this year when legislation is introduced to allow hospitals to collect fees from patients being treated privately by a consultant in a public designated bed. There is no doubt that this measure will exert upward pressure on premiums and the effect will be severe if costs are not contained by VHI and other insurers. I do not believe a large proportion of the procedures being carried out are being charged for at an appropriate level for the amount of time and skill involved. We have discussed this issue with VHI and the Department is sponsoring Milliman to address these cost issues alongside VHI, as well as, as I said yesterday, the issue of procedures carried out by consultants in hospitals attracting a side room fee which should be carried out in a GP's surgery. A much greater range of these procedures will be carried out not only by GPs but also by consultants in the new primary care centres. If one considers all of this, there are huge savings to be made.

In addition, Milliman was critical of VHI regarding collecting, form checking and checking whether procedures were required. There is also the issue of addressing the cost base in the same way as clinical programmes within the HSE have been addressed. For example, the money follows the patient initiatives which insist on orthopaedic procedures such as those on hips and knees being done on the day of admission, rather than admitting patients the night before, have yielded a sum of €6 million in one year, while using the medical assessment unit in Cork, the Chairman's city, has led to a reduction of approximately 25% in admissions. This freed up 22,000 bed days, with a putative saving of between €15 million and €17 million. All of these initiatives need to be undertaken in the private hospitals also and VHI and the other insurers need to insist on this.

The theatre intensification programme has also yielded great savings. A mere five theatres which represent only 2.5% of the theatres in the country, having undertaken this new approach to how they are used, saved €2.5 million. There are huge savings to be made in the public and private systems. If we address all costs in the system, the upward pressure on premiums will be mitigated considerably. I do not see any excuse for talk of a 50% increase. As the sole shareholder in VHI, I will meet the board to discuss this issue because it will not be used as cover to hike premiums for hard pressed citizens.

This news is welcome, but there is a great deal of fear among policyholders and a need for active engagement in order that those paying for private health insurance will not have to live in fear of their premiums increasing by 250%. It is disingenuous of VHI to engage in such a tactic on the airwaves to frighten members and create panic. We will come back to this issue.

I equally deplore the manner in which certain procedures are being removed from cover under some plans which are well known to be the preferred plans of people over the age of 50 years. I will address this issue with VHI and the Health Insurance Authority, the duty of which is to prevent segmentation of the market. That is precisely what is happening and it is not acceptable.

At the previous meeting I asked the Minister for an update on the position of St. Joseph's nursing home in Ardee and Cottage Hospital in Drogheda. I received a written reply which stated:

The community nursing unit sector across the country is currently being reviewed by the Department of Health and the HSE. With a view to rationalising some nursing units, this work is necessary because of three main challenges - financial, the moratorium on recruitment, which is having an impact on staffing levels in some units, and the requirement to ensure that these units meet national standards as set out by HIQA.

In fairness, I could have written that statement. The bottom line is that these patients consider the nursing home as their home. They have made friends and feel safe in their surroundings. This issue is causing a great deal of stress for their families. All people want is for the Minister to come clean about what is happening with these homes. We cannot afford for this to continue for six, 12 or 18 months. If they are to be closed or replaced, I ask the Minister to say this. Old people do not deserve this.

Normally, I would not take up an issue such as this at the committee, but I refer to the case of a distressed woman in Ardee called Mary O'Brien who has a 21 year old son called Jamie who suffers from type III Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, a connective tissue disorder. His big problem is that every five or six days his shoulder pops out and he has to go the accident and emergency department. He must then wait 12 or 24 hours for a specialist to put his shoulder back in. This is causing a great deal of stress for his family. Ms O'Brien e-mailed me as follows:

Peter,

I am getting more and more stressed out with the conduct of the HSE. My son went up last August to the pain clinic where they decided to try an IB pump. They told him to go home and think about it. He tried to contact them back and he could not get them on the phone. He tried and tried and tried. Eventually Jamie rang another day and the girl said she would give him an appointment in the clinic in October. That never happened.

In October his mother took a day off and they went to the hospital. The girl at reception told them there was no need for them to come up. He could have done it over the telephone, but he could not get through. They arranged for him to go to the hospital on 6 December and yet again his mother took the day off. They met a doctor and were told that because Jamie was a VHI member they should come back the following day. He got up the next day and arrived at the hospital at 9.30 a.m. He had to wait until 2.30 p.m. before being seen by a doctor who told him that because he was in VHI, it would be after Christmas before he could to anything. His mother's e-mail continues: "Now Peter I hope we don't get stuck under the private sector as we cannot afford to pay for private consultants".

This has been going for a number of years and I plead with the Minister to do something about the it. The HSE staff are trying their best. They have organised an appointment for him in an EDS clinic in London on 23 February 2012. As I am afraid something might happen to him, I plead with the Minister and the HSE to do something for this young fellow.

I would like to raise three issues, the first of which relates to the confusion about whether patients from Lucan and Clondalkin should be directed to Tallaght hospital or St. James's Hospital. People traditionally went to St. James's Hospital. This question was originally submitted through one of the GPs in Clondalkin and there is not much clarity in the reply I received. I am not satisfied with it. Why can patients not be directed to whichever hospital offers the greater specialisation in the context of the condition that needs to be treated? I seek clarity on the reply provided by the Minister.

The second issue which I raised yesterday is that there is a problem with clawing back funding the HSE has given to drugs rehabilitation and other programmes. Two organisations in north Clondalkin - the Clondalkin Addicts Support Group, CASP, and the Clondalkin Travellers Development Group - have had to put their staff on protective notice because of a clawback of money and a lack of clarity about funding in the new year. They have no guarantee of funding from the end of the month. There should be clarity for organisations such as these. I have set up a meeting with the Minister of State responsible for this area, Deputy Shortall, but I would like the Minister to address it now.

At the previous meeting I referred to the case of an individual who suffers from a rare condition and a written apology was to be given to the family by the HSE. I do not know whether that has yet been done. I would like the matter to be clarified.

It is very wrong that Deputy Fitzpatrick needs to come here and raise a person's individual case. It is a shame on the HSE that this could not have been dealt with locally. It is sad that it has to come to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health and Children.

I thank Ms McGuinness. Since the last meeting she contacted me regarding the Hollybrook long-stay unit in Inchicore and a visit is being arranged. Again I am disappointed that I had to raise it here before that visit could be arranged and that it could not have been done by me through the local area manager.

I continue to ask for a response to my question regarding the 18% of the beds in the new Hollybrook unit allocated to the residents living in Inchicore and Bluebell. As I mentioned at the last meeting, if the 50 beds are all taken up by people coming from elsewhere it means that none of the beds will be available for the people living locally. Part of the reason the Christian Brothers allocated the ground to the HSE, as discussed with the board of St. Michael's and residents living in the area, was that a unit would be built there for local people so that they could remain in their community. I am still awaiting a response on that.

I fully support Deputy Ó Caoláin's question regarding the price of drugs in the Republic of Ireland. I was on a family visit in another part of the country a few weeks ago. Drugs I had bought previously for €75 in Dublin were cheaper down the country which I found quite unusual. If I had gone to Northern Ireland I could have got the drugs for £30 rather than €75.

I have a number of questions relating to the last time the Minister appeared before the committee. Before doing that I would like to get clarification from the HSE regarding the rumour - I think it is more than a rumour - about another 20 beds being lost in Cherry Orchard in the next few weeks. Talk of the beds being closed has gathered momentum in Ballyfermot, Bluebell and Inchicore. If beds are to be closed I ask for clarification on how many, what units will be affected and when they will be closed.

I previously asked about occupational therapy services and autism services. I am fully aware of the service Beachfield provides and of the children with whom it deals. It is of great assistance to older children and the special school there is to be commended. The mother of a 19 year old son with severe autism contacted me. She has cancer and has been unsuccessful in trying to get emergency respite. The response from the HSE states that while there is no dedicated fund available for respite, even in an emergency, the HSE endeavours to secure appropriate responses when required. For this woman there was no appropriate response and she is still in limbo and trying to deal with her own health problems as well as dealing with a 19 year old son with severe autism who is very difficult to manage at any time. When will the promised review for the autism services be published?

In my area of south west Dublin which covers the Dublin South-Central constituency, 180 children are waiting to be assessed for various matters. Some 70 are waiting for community occupational therapy assessment. I have met people who have been waiting months and possibly more than a year.

I have a final question for the Minister on the budget. The last time I was here I asked about the front-line services. The budget refers to savings of €140 million in 2012 through reduced health service employment levels. I understand that some areas might be over-staffed. However, I want to highlight the front-line services on the ground. I have been inundated with calls from people about home-help services, meals on wheels, speech and language therapy, district nurses, day-care centres and front-desk services where people go into a hospital and have to meet the staff who may be taking appointments for day services - those are the people who meet the public first. I hope the €140 million reduction will not eliminate some of those people in front-line services who deal with the public on a daily basis.

I call the Minister and Mr. Magee to be followed by Senators Conway and Gilroy.

In response to Deputy Fitzpatrick, we will talk about that particular case. Obviously Jamie O'Brien is in need of a particular type of care and we can discuss that privately with Mr. Magee afterwards. I do not believe it is something we should discuss here. I am not in any way critical; I understand the Deputy's frustration and why he raised it. Regarding St. Joseph's and the Cottage Hospital, I fully concur with the need to address the issue where people have been together for quite some time and have formed relationships, feel safe, feel they are among friends and wish to stay among friends. When a unit must close we need to make provision for people moving together, if that be their wish, to any new facility, and that they are not split up, separated and scattered to the four winds, which is not appropriate or right.

Nonetheless - we have already covered the issue of community nursing home units - there will be tremendous pressure on some of them, particularly the smaller ones because of the financial situation in which we find ourselves. It will be difficult to keep open units of fewer than 50 beds because of staffing ratios. I believe the specifics of each case can be addressed more appropriately in a different setting. Following the Abbelyleix case, I met representatives who had some interesting suggestions as to how we could continue the service in that area which are worthy of exploration. People from around the country have offered solutions regarding some of the smaller units which might be worth exploring. How realistic some of them are is another day's work, but they should at least be explored.

Deputy Dowds's questions nearly all relate directly to the HSE and so I will pass them on. The same is true for Deputy Catherine Byrne's questions, other than the question about the front-line services and the reduced employment through the employment control framework. We will seek to protect front-line staff and front-line services. Unfortunately, I have had to make it very clear that with the level of cuts we are sustaining, there will be an impact on front-line services. While we will do our best to minimise that, we took €800 million out of the system in this year, 2011. The net effect of the budget is that we will need to do the same again. It is not just the €183 million we must return to the Exchequer, there are the other costs of superannuation, the deficit being carried forward, increments that need to be paid, the VAT implications of in excess of €50 million and a raft of other things I have already outlined on the floor of the Dáil in terms of the costs we have to pay.

The Department of Health is not like other Departments that start with a clean sheet; we start with built-in pressures. The real savings were originally identified as €53 million. However, when we add in the deficit, which had been €300 million and is now nearer €149 million, to be carried forward, the other issues I have mentioned and the EU health agency worker directive, we are again talking about taking €800 million out of the health budget. We will do our best to deal with some of the issues I mentioned earlier, including clinical programmes, different rosters, asking people to ensure patients can be discharged on Saturdays and Sundays, and that diagnostics are available on Saturdays and Sundays so people can receive the results of their tests and go home. We will also examine the entire area of discharging patients. Nobody should lie in a bed over a weekend because a test carried out on a Friday is not read and reported until Monday; this day must go, which is what this reform is about.

We face a really tough year ahead and I do not underestimate it for one minute. I call on all of those working in the health service, administrators, managers, doctors, nurses, porters, catering staff and cleaning staff to put their shoulders to the wheel so we can give the people of our country the care they deserve.

Mr. Cathal Magee

The Minister has covered the issue with regard to community nursing units in answer to Deputy Fitzpatrick. These decisions will have to be made in the service plan to be completed by the end of the year and submitted for approval. As I stated earlier, we will enter into a consultation process with regard to decisions on proposals to close any unit, which will take a period of at least three months and which will include all residents who are impacted.

With regard to the individual case the Deputy raised, as the Minister stated I am happy to take the details after the meeting and to follow up and investigate what can be done.

I thank Mr. Magee.

Mr. Cathal Magee

Deputy Dowds asked a question which was raised at the previous meeting, and I note his dissatisfaction with referral patterns to Tallaght Hospital and St. James's Hospital. It is an issue I will take up with the chief executives of both hospitals. They have been engaged in significant discussions on planning and communicating with the GP community on appropriate referral patterns to both hospitals. This may not yet be fully communicated to the GP community. I will take up the issue-----

People seem to be referred to Tallaght Hospital as opposed to St. James's Hospital which is not always appropriate. It may be appropriate in some cases. I would appreciate greater clarity on this.

Mr. Cathal Magee

It is an issue that has arisen in the past six months and GPs have written to me about it. We need to have a clear outcome and communicate it. I will do as the Deputy says and will respond.

Will Mr. Magee also take into account another point, which is that in practical terms travelling from Lucan and north Clondalkin to St. James's Hospital is easier than travelling to Tallaght Hospital for those who must use public bus services. It is easy enough to get to Tallaght from south Clondalkin. In many ways, bus services from Clondalkin better serve St. James's Hospital although there is a limited service to Tallaght. This is part of the reason for the preference for St. James's Hospital.

Mr. Cathal Magee

With regard to the apology, it has issued. I am not familiar with the details of the two organisations and their funding, including the Travellers development group. In the past week we received an indication of the funding arrangements for 2012 and we must work through a service plan. People have not received confirmation and this may be part of the issue. I will endeavour to establish what is the situation and to write to the Deputy separately on it.

Is there any way we could have clarity on this prior to Christmas? Given that the organisations have had to serve protective notice-----

I ask Deputy Dowds and Mr. Magee to speak later on this matter.

Mr. Cathal Magee

I cannot make here the commitment requested by the Deputy. We will endeavour to establish the situation with regards to the funded agencies but we can do so only on the conclusion of the service plan when it is approved by the Minister. It is difficult to indicate what will be the position. I will have the two cases raised by the Deputy examined to see whether in the individual circumstances we can deal with the issues raised.

I ask the witnesses to deal with the questions asked by Deputy Catherine Byrne.

Mr. Cathal Magee

I will ask my colleague to deal with those issues.

Ms Laverne McGuinness

At the previous meeting Deputy Byrne raised the issue of Hollybrook and whether all or some of its beds could be ring-fenced and protected for patients from the area who wish to go there. Under the fair deal scheme every patient can choose where he or she wishes to go. Therefore, a nursing home cannot have a number of beds protected for an area. Under the legislation patients go on a national waiting list and are then offered the nursing home of their choice in accordance with where they are on the waiting list. Deputy Byrne also raised the proposed closure of St. Brigid's in Crooksling. Consultation needs to take place with the residents to see where they wish to go. Approximately 40% are from the Inchicore area. We will take up this issue at our meeting of 15 December because the two managers from Inchicore will be in attendance.

Deputy Byrne also mentioned the rumours about the closure of 20 beds in Cherry Orchard. Earlier in the meeting we mentioned that a review and risk assessment of all nursing homes is being carried out. This is based on the level of funding, the level of staffing and HIQA principles. This has not yet concluded and proposals are not near finality. However, consultation will take place in advance. The assessment is being carried out jointly by the Department and us. We will be able to communicate further in advance of this.

Deputy Byrne also had queries on Beechpark autism services. If the Deputy is aware of the particular place I can take it up with her after the meeting. It does not have specific money for respite but it tries to prioritise in so far as it can with the money it has. With regard to the autism report, last week I reviewed a near-final draft and I expect to have a final draft which will then go to the national management team, the board and the Department. Early in the new year is the date I can give the Deputy for this.

A number of children are waiting for assessments of need for disability services. This is a particular difficulty for us because of the volume of applications we receive. Approximately 3,500 of the applications for assessment of need received are completed. We have approximately 1,200 therapists which is not sufficient to both carry out assessments and provide the therapies required. There is a waiting list but we try to prioritise based on clinical need.

Mr. Cathal Magee

With regard to frontline services, the intent in preparing a service plan is to seek to protect frontline services as a priority in so far as this can be done. However, given the funding impact and in particular the targeted reduction in manpower, it is inevitable front-line services will be impacted. A total of 35% of the workforce in the health system is nursing staff, 15% to 16% is therapy staff, 8% is medical staff, and 15% is health care assistants and people in support roles, technicians and ambulance drivers. Almost 85% of the workforce is involved in the delivery of care or its support and 15% of it is administrative, of which half is involved and located in health care settings. We need to understand that if resources are reduced by a minimum of 3,200 next year we will lose professionals in the frontline delivery of health care. Even though we can prioritise in the areas of overheads, support and the back office, which we did last year, nonetheless given the impact of the February exits, seeking to meet manpower and funding targets next year and the savings of €140 million, it is inevitable that significant numbers of staff involved in the frontline delivery of health care will be impacted.

It makes the point that the moratorium offers a one-size-fits-all solution, particularly in the health sector.

On the recruitment of social workers, we were promised 260 posts in addition to those lost owing to natural attrition. To date, we remain 60 short of that target. My understanding is that newly qualified social workers have gone through the interview process successfully but have not progressed. The rumour is that there is no money available to recruit them.

Today's reports on Gleann Alainn in County Cork show the necessity for preventive services in the community. I have worked in high support units with some of the most difficult children in the country, but it was not their fault. Had their families been able to avail of interventions when they were two or three years of age, high support units would not be locking them away for their own safety. I do not want this issue to be fobbed off on the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. It is an historical issue of the recruitment of social workers within the HSE. I want an answer, as I am unsatisfied with the one supplied at this meeting.

The subject of nursing has been mentioned. Mr. Magee has stated that 35% of the HSE's staff are engaged in nursing. Have the HSE's strategic managers and planners studied age profiles and run metrics as to the potential outflow? My sense is that February will see Armageddon in the provision of health care. Several members of my family are engaged in nursing. If I did a straw poll at the kitchen table, many of them would be heading out the door in February. What are we doing to address this matter? It relates to the question of prevention. If we are to take the route of closing community hospitals that allow patients to move from acute hospitals in which caring for their needs is more expensive, where will the saving be made? I do not understand it. Skills and knowledge will flow out of the system in February.

In June I welcomed the announcement by the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, of the publication of the standards for the inspection of homes for children with disabilities. A provisional target date of 2013 has been set for the commencement of inspections. To this end, discussions between the Department of Health and the Health Information and Quality Authority have begun, but why will it take so long?

I apologise for being unable to attend earlier, but I was in the Dáil for the Order of Business.

It is important that we have some straight talking on health services and the provision and governance of same. The HSE has been described as being incompetent and incapable of delivering health services. These would not be my words, as I do not agree with the statement, but the Government has committed to the HSE's abolition through the publication of legislation by the end of the year. However, it has not materialised and the new commitment is to publish legislation next year.

In the meantime the HSE is charged with providing health care and drafting a service plan for 2012. How does the organisation do this, given the Government's decision to abolish it in 2012? How does the HSE motivate its staff and give its absolute commitment to putting a service plan in place and ensuring the proper delivery of health services? This is not to cast aspersions on anyone who is present, but members of the Government have made critical remarks about the HSE. I live in the real world and recognise the significant financial challenges facing and pressures on the organisation, staff and health care providers.

In the light of the broader issues of governance and given the fact that the HSE will dissolve in the coming months, that it must put a service plan in place borders on farcical. What contingency plans have been made? Does the organisation know what will succeed it? Does anyone know what will happen in 2012? If no one does, it means the service plan will be implemented by an unknown organisation. We need clarity soon. The idea that we can wait for the legislation to be published does a disservice to everyone in the organisation who is trying to provide health care and those who depend on said services.

VHI commented on the budget and forthcoming legislation dealing with designated beds in public hospitals. We cannot dismiss people's significant concerns. Premiums have inflated significantly, as anyone who has received a bill in recent days or weeks knows. This is particularly the case for a cohort of people to whom the Minister referred. Everyone accepts that VHI has an obligation to be non-profit making while efficiently providing as much health care cover as it can. It has questions to answer in that case. The Minister should place Members on the board to bring it up to its full complement, hold the organisation to account, restore proper governance procedures and ensure VHI is trying to get value for money, negotiating with the HSE and private health care providers and not passing on premium increases.

If designated private beds are removed from public hospitals, there will be a two-tier health system. Public patients will not be treated at all - they will be pushed to one side and placed further down the list in favour of those with private health insurance. Instead of a universal health insurance model under which everyone is entitled to care, public patients without health cover will be pushed to one side. We should not denigrate the fact that people work hard to try to pay for health cover. They are taxpayers and entitled to State-provided health care. We need a great deal of debate on this issue.

I must raise again the issue of the fair deal nursing home scheme. Undoubtedly, the delays in assessments are legendary. When we try to raise the issue, we are told there is no inordinate delay, but no one sitting at this table has not experienced significant delays in processing and assessing applications. When people are medically assessed and financially approved, they are told the process is waiting on finance to be made available. I can understand the Minister's retort about the delays owing to the amount of money provided by the previous Government, but the provision of acute beds in hospitals across the country is being backed up. We need to move patients out of hospitals and into long-term care facilities in which they can recuperate. The delays are exerting significant pressure on acute services and getting worse.

Regarding long-term residential care centres and the closure of community nursing homes, the HSE or the Minister - whoever is in charge - should outline which nursing homes will be closed in the near future in order that communities and care organisations can arrange for the orderly and humane transfer of patients instead of splitting them up across the country. These are communities of people. What happened in Abbeyleix was a disgrace. It was disgraceful that a decision was taken to transfer a community of people over 12 hours. If the Government proposes to continue its plans to close these centres, it must do so in a humane manner, one that allows those in community settings to adjust and the wider community to come up with arrangements which ensure patients are treated with basic human decency. Elderly people must be allowed to transfer as a community to another location.

Is Mr. Woods responsible for the decision in respect of the HSE staff and expenses?

Mr. Liam Woods

Yes.

Was the decision in regard to deferral until 2012 of staff entitlements to expenses made by one individual, the board of the HSE or the Minister? Who makes that decision? The governance issue cannot be denied for much longer.

I will ask the HSE representatives to respond on Deputy Conway's question in regard to recruitment of the social workers and the 60 remaining to be recruited. While that is an issue for the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Fitzgerald, I am sure the HSE representatives will be able to answer the Deputy's question.

Historically it was not.

I know that but it is now.

They were promised 12 months ago.

It is Deputy Fitzgerald's area of expertise. Nonetheless, the HSE remains involved and will be in a position to answer the Deputy's question. The Deputy also asked about nursing numbers. Mr. McGrath has carried out an at-risk social study on this issue to identify who is entitled to go, who has inquired to go and where the gaps are likely to occur. I will ask Mr. McGrath to respond to that question.

The issue of inspection of children's facilities also comes within the remit of the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Fitzgerald. It is an area about which all of us are concerned. The report on that matter is now complete. The HSE representatives might also bring us up to date on that issue.

With due respect, the issue of children with disabilities does not come within the remit of the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs.

Children do. The HIQA report on inspections is available. As the Minister of State, Deputy Lynch, is not here and it is an issue which comes within her remit, I will ask Mr. Barron to respond on that issue.

On Deputy Kelleher's comments in regard to governance and reform, we are in the middle of a reform process. The governance issue is being addressed. We currently have in place a board which I intend to abolish, through legislation by the end of the year. Given the pressure of all the other legislation it was necessary to enact, including the Budget and troika requirements, that legislation has been delayed. However, the memorandum will shortly be brought before Government. As such, it will be early in the new year before the board is abolished. The structure for the new organisations at super structure level will be outlined in the next couple of weeks. That information will be available to everyone.

I heard the Deputy's comments in regard to the VHI on radio this morning and again here today. No one has been dismissing people's concerns. I understand people are concerned, in particular when threatened with a 50% increase. I addressed that issue during the early part of this meeting, in respect of which Deputy Kelleher was not in attendance. I also addressed at some length the community nursing unit issue. In regard to membership of the board, there are some vacancies occurring which will be filled shortly. The Government has decided to advertise and invite expressions of interest for all board positions of this nature. That will happen shortly.

I note Deputy Kelleher's comments in regard to the two-tier system and the dangers of bed designation, which have been taken into consideration. There is a danger that hospitals would feel incentivised to treat more private patients. However, there are a number of levers available to us to mitigate that risk, including better enforcement of the existing consultant contract - which we are doing, planned Croke Park discussions with hospital consultants on a common waiting list for all in-patient, day and diagnostic services in public hospitals and suitable funding incentives. In other words, not allowing the hospital exceed a particular amount of income. This will ensure they cannot retain the private income they create beyond a particular point. These are the types of protections we can put in place.

We fully intend to eliminate the two-tier system through universal insurance and the provision of free GP care. Deputy Kelleher was part of a Government which presided over a two-tier system for 14 years. He was not alone a backbencher but a Minister of State and must take some responsibility for it. It is a bit rich to hear the Deputy say we are not acting quick enough when his party, when in government, had all those years to address it but did not. We will be judged by the people at the end of our term in office, when we will have achieved much of what we set out to achieve, even though we were left with a financial mess which made life extremely hard for people in this country. We have undertaken to address our problems and to do so in conjunction with our partners in Europe and will continue to take that road, in respect of which I believe we are making progress.

On the fair deal, additional funding has been made available this year for nursing home support. This underscores the Government's commitment to support access to quality long-term residential care for our older people. Approximately 4.5%, or 21,000, of older people are in long-term residential care. That figure has risen. A further 862 applications were approved and are awaiting placement. This additional funding should allow 2,600 additional applications to be approved in 2012. We spend €1 billion on long-term residential care for approximately 24,000 to 26,000 people and €125 million on looking after 10,000 people in other settings, and clearly need to examine where money can be best spent in terms of innovations and options that allow people remain at home, thus out of long-term residential care.

I have said previously and say again I am deeply concerned that people are being forced into long-term residential care before they need to go there. When I say "forced" I do not mean someone is standing behind them with a big stick, rather I mean "forced" in the context of a fund of money being identified for long-term care at a time when the same amount of funding, or anything remotely like it, is not available for alternatives. It is a bit like the primary care-secondary care split. If it is €50 to visit the GP but visiting the hospital is free, people will go to the hospital yet the hospital is the most expensive place to go in terms of cost to the State. We are removing that block from primary care by extending the medical card cover through the long-term illness card. We need to find more innovative ways of addressing people's needs to allow them remain at home, including the provision of more home care packages and support, sheltered housing and other facilities, which are prevalent in the south east, where people, despite having their own homes, go to have their meals and sleep at night because they feel safer there. There is some confusion in this regard around HIQA standards, which I would like to clarify. HIQA applies its standards to long-term nursing home care units. There will be new and different standards for other types of facilities, which clearly do not require nursing staff 24-7. We are thinking outside the box in this area.

On the HSE staff expenses issue, this matter was brought up with the board but was not finally accepted by it. My understanding is that there was a difference of opinion, in terms of interpretation, among board members. I welcome that the HSE has found a way to pay its staff. I do not believe keeping one's budget in check should lead to staff not being paid. However, there is another issue concerning messaging. In many cases, in some parts of the country, payments would not be made until 30 December; therefore, delaying them until January would only mean not making them for two or three working days. The supplemental budget we received yesterday will help us with this to a certain extent, as we would only be kicking the can down the road into next year and there would still be a problem with the finances next year.

On the regulation of social services, the Department and HIQA are discussing the issue of the regulation and inspection of a range of social care services for children, people with disabilities and older people. I share the Deputy's concern that some of the most vulnerable persons in society are those with the least protection from an inspectorate. We will address this issue as rapidly as possible.

Mr. Cathal Magee

I ask Ms McGuinness to deal with the social worker issue, as well as Deputy Conway's question.

Ms Laverne McGuinness

There were two queries, one relating to social worker numbers in 2010 and the other to the 60 social worker recruits in 2011. We committed to having 240 social workers in 2010 and we had panels running to well over 400. As we were recruiting, some of the social workers on the panels were working temporarily within the health service; we were making them permanent, but this was not seen as a net addition to our numbers. That is why the recruitment period seems longer. We recruited 204 social workers from March 2009; in September we were up to a figure of 233. We must also take into account the fact that some social workers leave as we recruit. We have recruited 240 social workers.

With regard to the 60 social worker recruits in 2011, the process is under way and some of them should be in place by the end of the year. If not, they will be in place in January.

Is it likely that the funding will be frozen?

Ms Laverne McGuinness

No, the filling of the 60 posts is proceeding. Some of them may come in before the end of the year and some may be recruited in January.

Mr. Cathal Magee

To answer Deputy Kelleher's questions, there are unprecedented challenges facing the health system, about which we have spoken at some length, taking in funding, services and workforce planning. At the same time Government policy means we are embarking on significant structural changes regarding the role of the HSE and governance procedures, as set out in the programme for Government. Within the HSE such changes are identified as a risk; there are challenges in managing and coping with change. It is acknowledged that there are risks, as recognised in our corporate risk register, as transition, particularly structural changes, presents new challenges at a time when the system is being challenged. There is no argument about this.

Could the risk be turned into an opportunity in reforming and transforming the health service?

Mr. Cathal Magee

Yes, in dealing with structural changes we are also dealing with management and the executive. It is also recognised that they are subject to change. Change does not apply just to front-line staff; it also impacts on management structures and the role of managers and executives. They cannot and should not escape the process of change. Nonetheless, challenges are presented. Some of the work done in the National Health Service in Britain recognises that structural changes present unique challenges and risks, with which we must deal. In discussions with departmental officials and the Minister we have impressed on them the importance of providing for early clarification of the road map in order that we can begin to build bridges to the future operating model of the health system. Everybody in the health system and the HSE supports the programme of change and will do what is required to meet the policy requirements of the Government. We will co-operate once there is clarity and the road map has been set. In the transition from health boards to the HSE structural changes presented unique challenges to the system and impacted significantly on the operation of the service throughout that phase. We must learn from this in the current phase.

We have outlined our position on the fair deal scheme. We have decided to implement a consultation process with regard to all future proposals or decisions to close a nursing home. The views of all relevant parties are to be included in making a decision to take into account relevant issues and interests, particularly the safety and welfare of patients, the desire to remain together, where possible, and appropriate medical and nursing input. It is also recognised that staffing and financial resources may act as constraints within the unit. We hope to learn from experience and ensure the process will be robust in supporting the needs of residents and the management of the system.

To follow up on the social worker issue, the most recent figure I received in reply to a parliamentary question to the Minister indicated that at the end of September in net terms we were four social workers down on the number at the beginning of the year. The response indicated that four of the 60 additional social workers who were to be employed during 2011 had been recruited. The practice of filling temporary posts while staff are on maternity leave has also been discontinued. I have no doubt, therefore, that if we considered the total number of social workers in the system, the number would be significantly smaller. Will the delegates go into more detail on the current practice of not filling temporary posts? What is the impact on members of staff currently working? Although the overall objective is to increase the number of social workers in line with the recommendations made in the Ryan report to ensure sufficiency, there are still fewer social workers than before. What are the current numbers and how many social workers will be recruited by the end of the year? A number of potential recruits have been told they have a job, but they have not been called to start.

On the HIQA report on the Gleann Alainn special care unit, I ask for further information on future plans for special care units. There are three such units in the country. The HIQA report published yesterday indicates Gleann Alainn is in a state of crisis, with very poor practices in many instances. It was indicated that the Ballydowd special care unit would close in 2009, but it continues to operate. The most recent HIQA report on Coovagh special care unit dates back to the start of the year and also indicates the facility is in a state of crisis. These are serious issues and they are not new. What are we going to do about them? There is a significant number of children going abroad to receive special care.

The issue of community hospitals was covered earlier and I apologise for not being present. The Minister indicated it would be very difficult to keep open community hospitals with fewer than 50 patients. Will he elaborate on this comment? I have a specific point to make on Letterkenny hospital. The cardio services have been discontinued. The practice of inserting pacemakers and conducting angiograms in Letterkenny General Hospital has been discontinued since last September due to budget constraints, yet there is a consultant in the hospital with the capacity to carry out this practice. He has been there for the last three or four years and was carrying out the practice up to recently. We have the consultant and the hospital but the patients who require such treatment are either going to Galway or, primarily, Dublin. In some cases they are taking up hospital beds while they are waiting to be transferred to Dublin or Galway. There are also ambulance costs incurred in transferring them. The dynamic for this is that the budget for Letterkenny hospital is so under pressure that the cost of that treatment is now coming out of the budgets of other hospitals. However, the overall cost to the HSE will be significantly more as a result.

Finally, the Friends of Letterkenny General Hospital have raised €800,000 to cover the cost of a permanent static CAT service in the hospital. If the HSE worked with them and used that funding, the permanent static CAT centre could be up and running and those treatments could be carried out in the hospital.

Deputy Byrne and Deputy Naughten have indicated they wish to put a question. Deputy Byrne should be brief as she has contributed a number of times.

I have only spoken once and I will be very brief, as I was previously. I cannot be accused of taking more than six minutes this time.

First, on Mr. Magee's reply about the funding and the front-line services, it is obvious from the reply that it will be the low paid staff who will lose their jobs in the outturn of what will happen in the HSE. Porters and people who deal with the public, including cleaning staff, are all very important. If we lose them, we might as well close our hospitals.

With respect to the reply from Ms McGuinness, I fully understand about ring-fencing in the fair deal, but the Hollybrook unit in Inchicore was to have 50 new beds. It was not to service any other beds but to provide 50 new beds within the service. The community where I live has been totally let down by the HSE and its commitment to the Christian Brothers and the community. With regard to the 50 beds, four respite beds will be gone. I know some of the people in Crooksling who come from the area of Inchicore and Kilmainham. In fairness, it is not 18% of the beds.

I wish to bring a comment I made at the last meeting to Mr. Magee's attention. On 11 August at the western health forum, the HSE confirmed that no written management directive was issued in respect of the ending of accident and emergency services at Roscommon County Hospital. That should be put on the record in the context of Mr. Magee's response.

Ms McGuinness can reply to Deputy McConalogue's query. With respect to angiography in Letterkenny, Dr. Barry White can answer that. In reply to Deputy Byrne, my office has been in touch with the relevant RDO and we will revert to the Deputy about the specific issue of Hollybrook and the commitment that was given.

Ms Laverne McGuinness

Deputy McConalogue appears to be concerned about social workers in the area of children and child protection. I have not seen the reply to the parliamentary question but I can only interpret it as the entire number of social workers. Social workers work across all the personal services in our hospitals, so if one looks at the totality, there has not been a net increase. The numbers I have quoted are the net increases relating to our child protection services, where we had targeted the recruitment of additional social workers. The figures I have given are correct in that regard. The Deputy is correct with regard to the total number of social workers. They might not have been replaced across hospitals but the figures relating to child protection are correct.

The recruitment process for the 60 social workers is under way. They have been cleared. The recruitment process was due to commence in the third quarter of the year. It was somewhat delayed into the fourth quarter but it is progressing at this point. The money is not frozen. That is the level of commitment one requires in that regard.

Mr. Cathal Magee

In reply to Deputy Byrne, I did not wish to convey the impression that low paid jobs would go in the reductions. In terms of the February impact, it will be whoever wishes to take up that option and whoever elects to retire or exit at that point. A substantial number of our staff are involved in the delivery of front-line services and of its nature and in normal distribution, there will be a significant cross section of staff impacted by the head count or workforce plans for next year. It will impact on consultants as we will also lose a significant number of consultants. We might lose a significant number of nursing and therapy staff, as well as public health nurses, in addition to the support staff the Deputy mentioned, such as portering and catering support services. My view is that the impacts will be across the full cohort of disciplines in our health system, given the scale of those disciplines in our service.

I call Deputy Ó Caoláin to make some brief closing remarks.

I appreciate the opportunity of this meeting. I note that an earlier comment referred to a threatened two-tier health system but both the Minister and I acknowledge that we already have a two-tier health system. It has been there for many years and is at the heart of our problems. It is not something in the offing.

We are meeting today in the wake of the disastrous announcement earlier this week that there will be a further contraction in funding for the health services in 2012. Approximately €0.5 billion is to be taken out of the health budget, some €800 million in real terms over the course of a full year. That is a catastrophe for the health services and should not happen. Undoubtedly, many of the people accompanying the Minister today are very conscious of what this will mean for their respective roles and responsibilities in 2012. It will present itself in all our lives.

Regarding specifics, the budget has been announced so we know where we stand in that regard. We might be simply facing a stay of execution for Abbeyleix. As was pointed out earlier, we deserve to know exactly where we stand as regards the HSE public nursing home facilities across the country, some of which are referred to as smaller hospitals. It is outrageous that we are maintaining an uncertainty. That unnecessarily creates anguish and hurt for many people. We should not allow the situation to drift. We must deal with this. My view is that we should be considering a programme of refurbishment rather than closure, irrespective of the cost. It can and should be done, rather than displace unfortunate people who are generally happy within their new environments.

The Minister remarked at the last meeting of the committee that we must pay our debts in the context of the travel and subsistence moneys outstanding to HSE employees, and again today he said it does not mean not paying one's people. This relates to specific services provided in the home to older people and people with disabilities. However, it has been brought to my attention that non-consultant hospital doctors at a number of hospitals in the south and south east, including Cork University Hospital, are not being paid for the overtime they have worked. It is being withheld. I wrote to the Minister about this during the week. It is a very serious matter. If people have worked specific hours in the system, they are entitled to be paid for their labour.

The same view expressed on travel and subsistence, in respect of a particular cohort of employees under the HSE, must also apply to non-consultant of hospital doctors, NCHDs. I ask the witnesses to take note of my representations in respect of this matter. I believe it is a serious matter and it has the potential to have a negative impact on future recruitment of NCHDs if we are to treat them in this way. On the eve of the January date for the turnover of NCHDs, what is the expectation of our ability to ensure a full engagement of the NCHD need across the hospitals that may be affected? The January turnover date has not traditionally been as challenging as the July date that presented in the course of this year. Can the witnesses also give us an assurance that we will not face further emergency legislation and the considerable efforts that had to be employed in the recruitment of NCHDs to meet that need on our hospital site earlier, specifically focused on India and Pakistan? Can the witnesses tell us what steps have been taken in order to guarantee that this problem will not present once again? Part of the solution is the creation of a career programme for people, leading to full consultant appointments. We need to see more consultant posts created in the system here.

I refer to the response earlier to the minor injuries unit and the rapid response vehicle with regard to the configuration of services in County Monaghan after the closure of all acute services at Monaghan General Hospital. The significant reduction in the minor injuries unit from a seven-day week schedule of 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. to a five-day week form 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. is a serious matter for the community I am proud to represent. The loss of the rapid response vehicle was supposed to be in the context of these services. What does that say to people in other parts of the country, such as Roscommon, Navan, Clonmel, Ennis and Nenagh and anywhere else people point to. The list is much longer than the one cited. What do the witnesses say to those people about the new services introduced ostensibly and allegedly in compensation for the loss of critical acute services? The situation in County Monaghan will give the people in other parts of the country no comfort whatsoever. They have no certainty or guarantee given the template of Monaghan.

The ambulance service was referred to by Deputy Naughten. We need an all-Ireland air ambulance service and it should not be looked at in a piecemeal fashion. I want to see that in situ. Is the Minister pursuing that with his counterpart north of the Border, Mr. Poots? Has this been addressed in the series of North-South Ministerial Council meetings and, if not, will he do so in the coming year? When will the GP access be provided to long-term illness cardholders? There is uncertainty as to when GP access will become part of the range of services they will be entitled to access free of charge.

I thank the committee for attending and allowing me to address it on our services. As Mr. Magee has pointed out, we cannot give a lot of direct information until the service plan is put in place. That will come to me and I have 21 days to amend or accept it. It is my intention to discuss it with my Government colleagues in Cabinet. I note Deputy Ó Caoláin's comments about the disaster but I do not consider the cuts in health a disaster. I consider they will present us with difficulty but it is not insurmountable. As a Minister, I accept that health must play its part but unfortunately in this case that means paying. Health is the second biggest spender in Government and while I do not wish to be too critical, it is not living in the real world if one says that we can refurbish all community nursing homes at a cost of more than €600 million when we will be struggling to provide services. Those choices are the responsibility of the Government and they will be made in conjunction with the best advice available to us.

I must point out that if we make decisions of such consequence for people about community nursing units, it is to be done in a cold, calm and cool environment with absolute regard for people and their feelings and the situation they find themselves in respect of relationships. I already alluded to this and to minimising any disruption. However, we cannot rush into this because that will cause even more hardship and while there is some uncertainty, which causes anxiety, for which I apologise, in order to get the right result, people must bear with us and allow us to examine the situation in a more comprehensive fashion than has been done to date. The HSE and the Department will co-operate on this point in a major way.

In respect of the withholding of overtime in Cork, I accept the point the Deputy made in writing to me although I have not yet seen the letter. I apologise for this. We are looking into this matter. Regarding the NCHDs, in the earlier part of the meeting we had a discussion about this. I have been informed by Mr. McGrath that there will be no gaps in the service.

The air ambulance service was alluded to earlier. There will be a clear resolution in January and in regard to the question asked about discussing this with Mr. Poots, we have done so. Deputy Ó Caoláin also asked when the long-term illness scheme allowing the extension of the medical card will be set up. This will require legislation but it is hoped to introduce it in the first quarter of next year.

I thank everyone for their contributions. I wish to reassure the public that the reform process continues, improvements continue and much of the work being done will not bear fruit until next year. As I pointed out earlier, we already see movement in areas such as the clinical programmes and special delivery unit where we have improved processes. An interesting comment from Dr. Susan O'Reilly, who works in cancer services, is that good organisation has yielded a 10% improvement in outcomes for people with cancer. We all think it is drugs and other factors but she emphasises the importance of organisation and management within our health service. I thank everyone and wish everyone a happy Christmas. I wish all of the staff working in the HSE, hospitals, community services and the Department a peaceful and happy Christmas.

We all agree with the Minister.

Mr. Cathal Magee

I apologise to Deputy McConalogue for not dealing with his question on scan and cardiac services at Letterkenny Hospital. I propose that we write to him in detail on the issue.

I thank the Chairman and members of the joint committee. I wish to be associated with the Minister's remarks.

On behalf of the joint committee, I thank the Minister, Mr. Magee and the officials from the Department of Health and the HSE for coming. Undoubtedly, these are challenging times, but it is important that there be reform. As legislators and officials, we have a duty to look after the people who seek reform and want access to healthcare, as well as better organisation. I pay a genuine tribute to the staff of the HSE who I know have been criticised a lot. However, the majority of the staff with whom I have dealt at an official level and in providing front-line services are hardworking and courteous. We might not always receive the responses we want, but they do get back to us, for which I thank them.

In seeking reform in a difficult budgetary environment it is important to use proper language and communicate with people. While we must tell it as it is, we must do in a manner that people understand and allows them to engage. Sometimes they are frightened by new concepts and words.

I again thank everyone for coming and wish the Minister and the staff of the Department and the HSE a happy Christmas. I hope to see the Minister at the meeting of the select committee at 10 a.m. tomorrow and the next quarterly meeting in the new year.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.55 p.m until 3 p.m on Wednesday, 14 December 2011.
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