JOINT COMMITTEE ON JOBS, SOCIAL PROTECTION AND EDUCATION debate -
Wednesday, 15 Feb 2012

Arts and Music Education in Disadvantaged Areas: Discussion

Chairman

I welcome our delegates from the Kylemore College Ballyfermot and City of Dublin VEC to discuss the issue of the role of arts and music education in disadvantaged areas. I welcome Mr. Gerard Flanagan, director of music, Kylemore College, Mr. Michael Challoner, principal, Inchicore College of Further Education, Ms Jacinta Stewart, CEO, City of Dublin VEC, and Mr. Stephen McCarthy, education officer, City of Dublin VEC.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to this committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they do not criticise or make charges against a person or persons or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members should be aware that under the salient rulings of the Chair, they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I now invite Ms Stewart to make her presentation.

Ms Jacinta Stewart

I thank the joint committee for the invitation to attend. Since its establishment, City of Dublin VEC has been involved in the arts and music area in a wide variety of settings. Under the Vocational Education Committee Act 1930, the City of Dublin VEC has a special responsibility for music. There are three huge advantages from this, namely, the talent and commitment of our teaching staff, the quality and integrity of the teaching programmes and the community focus, about which I will say more a little later in terms of primary schools in particular. We are going to focus today on a number of particular examples within the city. There are many more but we chose three in particular. Mr. Gerard Flanagan is director of music, Kylemore College, Ballyfermot, which has 40 music teachers and 765 students attending. He will speak about the music services provided by the centre, including 60 primary school students who are involved in Ceol Ballyfermot. We offer a programme in an array of national schools also. Mr. Stephen McCarthy, will look at a feasibility study given that we considered the possibility of developing creative arts education centres in the south-west inner city of Dublin, particularly in the Kilmainham area, and we wanted to develop social inclusion and accessibility in regard to the creative arts centre, in order to have a hub. Mr. Michael Challoner, principal, Inchicore College of Further Education, will look at a pilot scheme for dance and education in the primary schools at Inchicore. This is matching up the skills that plc students are developing with the primary school curriculum and dance.

Mr. Gerard Flanagan

I am director of music in Kylemore College, Ballyfermot, City of Dublin VEC, music centre which used to be part of the College of Music DIT, Chatham Row. When that went to DIT we stayed on a music school under City of Dublin VEC. We started out, like the College of Music, with a similar brief to develop 1:1 music education for students: piano, violin, flute, clarinet and saxaphone lessons, the full range plus music theory. Since then we have developed our ensemble, therefore we have a number of groups in orchestra, string, harp, recorder ensemble and we started a guitar orchestra this year. The focus has been from the 1:1 classes into group performances and participation - performance being as important as the examination structure for developing young people and music. This year we are taking the ensemble with its director, Ms Marie O'Farrell, to the Edinburgh International Harp Festival. We have been planning that event with our music staff for many years.

In a music school people have the idea that it is focused on a 1:1 fee paying service but we are keen to develop it beyond the straight forward music school into services to local primary schools and local organisations. While the music school serves the entire west Dublin area - Ballyfermot, Clondalkin, Drimnagh, Kildare, Lucan, Leixlip and Cellbridge - as have had a brief to work locally, in particular, with Ceol Ballyfermot. Ceol Ballyfermot was started by a music colleague, Ms Carmel Dunne, in 1998 and with a group of local activists she started a music programme designed for children in the local area. In 2005, following the Music Network report we were asked to support the work of Ceol Ballyfermot and started with a complementary music programme where what was being done in the primary schools was followed through a little better. The local scheme for up to 600 primary school students was followed on. Some of those follow on with us in the music centre on a Wednesday afternoon and we develop music programmes with them. The idea is to get all children playing and enjoying music and for those who are good enough to follow on with us into a complementary music service and, perhaps, straight on into the music school. One is trying to build capacity and models of citizenship and inclusion using music because this is the most enjoyable way. One is not selling the notion of citizenship or inclusion but having a concert and bringing people into the school and the teachers out into the community and learning how the musical process can operate and move forward.

As with everything in education or involvement in the community, it goes forwards and backwards but there is the commitment of the school and teachers and the years of experience through City of Dublin VEC to drive the entire project which is exciting for me as a teacher working in a school. We support Ceol Ballyfermot and would act as a local focus for any musical inquiries. We work a good deal with The Base, which is a media centre, in Ballyfermot, and would seek to support our colleagues in Inchicore. There are working groups such as the Rialto working group and Common Ground. Any time the telephone rings in connection with music we try to support that call. It is a considered response whether it is setting up a concert or developing partnerships that would sustain themselves into the future musically.

The benefit of being part of City of Dublin VEC is that one is part of a network that is not located in one centre or one school, one can feed into a dynamic further education network especially through Ballyfermot College of Further Education, the Rock School, and all the multimedia possibilities that would present themselves working with the further education sector. This expertise which we are building on a community basis feeds into young people becoming musicians involving new technologies. These are the students who are coming out with an interest not only in standard music education or arts education but with a view to bringing those skills back into music projects be they small one, talent shows, or X Factor style all the way up to orchestral projects, the full range of musical activity. It is exciting to be part of the music programme of City of Dublin VEC which sets standards of quality and excellence with a view to the people being served in the city of Dublin and especially young people in primary schools.

Mr. Stephen McCarthy

I will speak from the perspective of head office and the City of Dublin VEC. We have an education sub-committee as part of the City of Dublin VEC. In 2007 we conducted an audit on the various arts programmes we were running. By arts we mean art, music, drama, literature and dance. At that time we had 393 separate art activities in the city and almost 9,000 participants across all levels from Youthreach, youth work, adult hobby, junior and leaving certificate, and higher national diplomas. In 2008 we were looking at the notion with Dublin City Council of the creation of creative arts education centres. At that time a great deal of building was taking place within the city and a certain percentage of property was to be given to the community. We were looking at one site, in particular, as a test site on the Military Road, opposite Heuston Station, where there was a building owned by the Office of Public Works. We were looking at the possibility of the development of a creative arts and education centre. The purpose of the centre was twofold, to be a hub where the community and the schools, primary, second level and higher education would come together, and resources could be pooled into one local centre. We discovered there was a lack of performance space, particularly in disadvantaged areas. We saw this an opportunity to bring together in one area the expertise in the area, some of that would be our own or in schools that are not within our remit or people resident in the area, be they artists or activists.

We also focus on the gifted child. We were anxious, particularly in disadvantaged areas, that where we identified such a child we would provide support to them through the centre. We saw it as something where people could come in and gain from their experience but also where we would provide a service out in the community. We had looked at it in the context of a number of departmental reports which had been published at the time from the Departments dealing with education, sport, rural and Gaeltacht affairs, the Arts Council, the National Economic and Social Forum, our own reports and reports from Dublin City Council.

When we approached the OPW regarding the site at Heuston station, naturally enough the OPW asked how we could prove the need for this. We commissioned KPMG to undertake a study which developed a number of focus groups in the area comprising schools, youth services and community groups. We went to the National College of Art and Design and we also went to St. Patrick's College in Drumcondra to see if there would be a demand for such a centre. We discovered there was significant support for it. However, the situation in the economy changed dramatically, as we all know, and we needed to moderate our thinking as to what we could achieve. We were determined that some aspects of our plan would continue in some way. I will ask Mr. Michael Challoner to describe what was put in place.

Mr. Michael Challoner

This is a brief example of one practical effort to enhance or improve the provision of dance education in primary schools at a very local level in the immediate catchment area of my college. Four primary schools in the Inchicore area participated during the past academic year: Our Lady of Lourdes national school, Goldenbridge; Inchicore national school, Sarsfield Road; Our Lady of the Wayside national school, Bluebell; and St. John of God special school, Islandbridge.

The project came about partly as a result of our interaction with those primary schools in years gone by where we have been sending students on work placement and partly as a result of the project about dance to which Stephen McCarthy referred. The school principals and some of the staff in the schools identified a need that was lacking in the primary school teachers themselves whereby many of them were unable, unwilling or untrained to deliver the dance component of the physical education syllabus, particularly to second, third and fourth classes. We held a number of meetings and we devised a scheme in which our students who had a lot of experience of dance and some experience of teaching and instruction in dance, in particular to young children, looked at the syllabus and at the areas that needed attention. Our students went out to three of the schools and, in the case of the other school, its pupils used our dance studio in the college. Over periods of six or seven weeks before and after Christmas, two of our students went to the primary schools for the PE lesson for second, third or fourth classes and delivered lesson plans, which are available in the submission. The project delivered the dance component of the PE syllabus to second, third and fourth classes. It enabled our students to earn valuable work experience and also a qualification at FETAC level five for their work experience component. In this way, the children were given the dance component of their PE curriculum.

The feedback from the principals, the teachers and from our students, was in all cases quite positive and a number of the schools have engaged some of our students this current year to go back and take a similar type of programme with the second and third classes. We think this programme could be rolled out to other schools and there are possibilities not just in dance but also in drama or in other disciplines where the City of Dublin VEC and some of our colleges can enhance the opportunities available to young children in primary schools and so improve the quality of arts education in the local primary schools. It is the amalgamation or the co-operation between colleges such as my college and between the parent organisation which is the City of Dublin VEC which can have some benefit both for the teachers in the primary schools and, in particular, for the children who in many cases would not otherwise have the opportunity to get the quality of dance education or drama or arts education that the City of Dublin VEC can and is willing to provide if the opportunity arises.

Ms Jacinta Stewart

We believe we have identified that there is a capacity, by working in partnership, to meet the needs of young graduates by development under the labour market activation measures internships but also providing sport and tutoring for young dancers and young PE students. However, we need to work in co-operation with the local primary schools and the teachers. What we have described here are the very practical examples of on the ground experience. We do not claim to know everything nor do we claim that this is a solution to everything but it is an idea that has been working very quietly at a very local level.

Chairman

I will ask Deputy Conaghan to speak as he has been leading our research in this area.

Deputy Michael Conaghan

I have some ideas on the matter. I welcome the delegation. The term "the arts" is much used, as is the term "education". However, arts is never mentioned in the same context as helping the economy. The concept of arts and education is under-used and not fully understood. There are four or five subject books on the primary school curriculum, such as the geography, history, mathematics and science curricula, and there are four or five books covering the syllabi for music, visual arts, drama, dance, mime, etc. It is only when one reads the curriculum that one discovers just how rich it is and how much it is allied to the formation of young people's discovery of their creativity by means of these media. It is only then that one discovers its potential for enriching the lives of young people.

The big problem in classrooms is that there are deficits. As a teacher in Inchicore said to me, do we have to wait until every school has a ballet teacher and a grand piano? Despite the best efforts of teachers, there are all sorts of deficits such as space, time, musical instruments and a lack of specialist expertise. These are all difficulties and obstacles and, as a result, children across the board in primary schools do not see or discover the enrichment of almost half the curriculum. Teachers do their best but we have to find practical ways of addressing this deficit. The City of Dublin VEC has expertise gathered over the past 150 years and it has nurtured a college of music in its own right. The idea of clustering groups of schools around a central hub has been carried out in Inchicore to provide dance education and could be used to address particular needs in the primary schools and to provide a centre to which the primary school pupils could come.

The KPMG report validated our own hunch. The consultants brought together all the principals from a wide geographical area: Rialto; Inchicore; Kilmainham; Chapelizod; and down to the Liberties. They discovered that the principals need practical assistance and access to resources but schools on their own cannot have all these resources individually. The idea of clustering schools around a central hub, as Stephen McCarthy explained, is a very practical solution. Our job on this committee is to support and find practical ways to address the situation. No school can command these resources in its own right but, by clustering them, we would have a central resource out of which skills can go out into the schools, for particular arts and education activities, and, on the other hand, children can come into the centre for other parts of the disciplines of arts and education. It is very doable. The people around this table today can see the worth of these ideas and the practical experience that is in place, as well as the practical work done to show how it could be implemented. If we support that, we could have a key influence on the Departments working with the VEC and the local schools in developing the infrastructure to ensure that all those enrichments of dance, drama, mime, visual arts and so on happen in these local schools. This would be a very important animator in the local community, as well as being a key self-development tool for children. It is doable. We should play a role in helping to deliver it.

Deputy Brendan Smith

I join the Chairman and Deputy Conaghan in welcoming Ms Stewart and her colleagues. I compliment Deputy Conaghan on initiating this discussion because it is very worthwhile that we have the opportunity to know the extent of the activity taking place.

In her introductory remarks, Ms Stewart said the special responsibility was laid down in the Act. Was that the Vocational Education Act 1930? What status has Kylemore College? Is it a traditional second level school or is it a college of further education? Apart from the primary school pupils, what age profile are the students attending the college? To her knowledge, has the model that has evolved in Dublin VEC been replicated elsewhere in country? I know there is a College of Music in Cork but I do not know in particular how it operates and whether it comes under a VEC or is of independent status. Again, the work of the college and the emphasis on ensuring there is access for students from a disadvantaged area, in an area where, unfortunately, there is a high percentage of early school leavers, demonstrates clearly the vocational education system being responsive to the needs of different communities. I compliment all involved in this work, which I must say is news to me.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

I congratulate the witnesses. It is heartwarming to meet them. I believe that what they are doing is what education is really about. I was myself a student in a municipal school many years ago and worked in arts education for 35 years, so I know where they are, what they need and why they are here. It is a privilege to listen to today's presentation because this is a find - a real treasure.

I have some practical questions. First, has the school made an application to the Music Generation programme? Second, is singing part of the school's programme? Third, what happens when children leave the primary system? Is the same force brought to bear in regard to the middle school and second level education, which touches on Deputy Smith's question in regard to the age profile? As it seems to be a force in primary school, I wonder what happens in middle school, which is very important, and into leaving certificate.

What do the witnesses want to happen now, crucially and immediately? I was a bit confused as to what they wanted to happen in practical terms. What is the school's relationship with Ballyfermot College of Further Education? Is it aspirational or real, and how far has the school pushed that?

What happened to the building? While I know KPMG carried out a survey, I am not sure it would have been my choice. I would sometimes go to a very good arts organisation and ask it to do this, because it would bring the energy and the knowledge the school has. One of the people who undertook a major survey before the building of the Helix was Ms Jane Daly. It was an incredible survey and it pushed the project in an artistic as well as a practical way. Where is the momentum now? This should be a very good time given it has started to rain. The building is there. Perhaps that is a practical help we could give. Buildings cost money. It will not save the school and it will cost a lot of money. What are the practical areas in this regard?

The issue of the gifted child is a very interesting one. Has the school considered the Centre for Talented Youth in DCU and tried to create a programme for the gifted child? DCU has a big building called the Helix which is not used by many people during the summer. Perhaps the school could pilot a programme next summer involving the gifted child, particularly in regard to music or dance, which seem to be the two main creative arts which the school has developed.

Those are my questions. I thank the witnesses again. It was a real pleasure to listen to them.

Ms Jacinta Stewart

I am not sure we can answer all of the questions but I will try to do so. In response to Deputy Brendan Smith, under the Vocational Education Act 1930, Dublin city and Cork city were given special responsibility for music. We have asked that this be written into the new proposals for the education and training boards as we would like to retain it.

The school started as a very small music school with part-time hours. Over a period from 1980, we have built it up. Kylemore College and Ballyfermot College of Further Education are constituent colleges on City of Dublin VEC, so there is a direct link between the two. Mr. Flanagan might deal with the move from the primary schools.

Mr. Gerard Flanagan

I will dovetail that with Ms Stewart's point about singing and progression, which is a critical issue. What we want, particularly if we have children of primary school age, is that we do not lose them. We also want to follow them through that path from being children to being teenagers, as they begin to become interested in music.

Our map in Ballyfermot is to attempt to link all of those issues, whether through support of music in the primary school or through our music school. As Kylemore College is mainly a secondary school for the local area, we would work on the regular school music programmes with the music teacher in Kylemore College and follow some of those students into the music school. We would also have good connections with the Rock School, so there is also that path.

Literally, from age zero to 18, we are looking for a sort of thought through process in regard to music education so everybody has been given an opportunity, if they wish, and there are suggested ways of moving them forward. It is not just the music aspect that we are proposing. We are strategically placed at City of Dublin VEC to do this right across the city, with all of the expertise that exists in the further education courses, for example, as well as the local contact with primary schools.

Ms Jacinta Stewart

Kylemore College has responsibility not just for Ballyfermot. We would like to develop what it does across the city, although there are all kinds of concerns around how we do that. Mr. Flanagan will deal with the issue of singing.

Mr. Gerard Flanagan

Singing is the type of contact activity we want. I insist that all my students sing. They are rockers, but singing is in a way the breathing of music. Many programmes can be developed through singing but we need to also ensure that all aspects of music education are being thought through. It might be children in the local base in Ballyfermot who want to sing for a talent competition, so we support them in the talent competition and give them tuition so they are not stuck up there, being humiliated as we might see on some "The X Factor" programme.

The idea is to identify what they would like and to support it. This could be a long process, it might be for three or four weeks or it might just be something they do in class with their friends and follow through on. There are many solutions and the detail of it takes a bit of working out, but many people, whether students, former students or emerging teachers, were interested in developing these kinds of programmes.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

I wanted to know what the witnesses wanted immediately and crucially - what was the big thing they wanted. I know that is very political.

Ms Jacinta Stewart

I suppose the big thing in the back of our heads is that it is a very small co-operative project at present. We would like to expand and develop the project and to look again at the possibility, against the background of all that has happened, of the development of the centre.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

Where was the building to be located?

Mr. Stephen McCarthy

On the Office of Public Works site opposite Heuston Station in Kilmainham. That project has come to a standstill.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

In what way?

Mr. Stephen McCarthy

There is no development happening on the site.

Chairman

Is the property still vacant?

Mr. Stephen McCarthy

Yes. The Garda is currently using it as a storage depot.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

There is no money to continue the project.

Mr. Stephen McCarthy

That is correct.

Chairman

If funding were available, would it progress?

Mr. Stephen McCarthy

Yes. We must moderate our thinking in terms of how we progress it.

On the question regarding KPMG, we put the contract out to public tender at that time-----

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

I do not mean to cast any aspersions. I am sure Mr. McCarthy understands where I am coming from.

Mr. Stephen McCarthy

Absolutely.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

In regard to the gifted children issue, have the delegates considered approaching DCU for assistance, even in terms of providing a building for such programmes in the summer?

Mr. Stephen McCarthy

It was more a question of identifying gifted children from socially-disadvantaged backgrounds within their own locality.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

Fair enough.

Mr. Stephen McCarthy

We operate our own scholarships for talented students.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

Did the VEC apply for Music Generation funding?

Mr. Stephen McCarthy

We applied and were unsuccessful.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

Do the delegates know why the application was unsuccessful?

Mr. Gerard Flanagan

We have a very good committee representing the entirety of the City of Dublin VEC area, which is a very exciting development for us. The challenge was to map a coherent application for a city the size of Dublin, which includes a broad range of music provision as well as areas where large numbers of students receive no music education. There was a significant challenge in fine tuning a coherent structure.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

Is Mr. Flanagan of the view that the application was too broad?

Mr. Gerard Flanagan

No, we are on the right track. I am hopeful that our next application will be successful.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

When I say "too broad", I am speaking geographically. I understand this was an issue with some of the unsuccessful Music Generation applications.

Mr. Gerard Flanagan

No, we received good feedback in terms of what we need to do.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

It is certainly my view that Kylemore College would be a prime candidate for the next round of funding under the Music Generation programme.

Mr. Stephen McCarthy

Dublin city poses a particular problem when it comes to this type of funding, just as it does in the case of local area partnerships and sports partnerships. First, the amount of funding, which is €100,000 under the Music Generation scheme, would disappear in seconds within the city. In addition, the national bodies are located in the city, which confuses the procedures.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

There is a blurring of the demarcation lines.

Mr. Stephen McCarthy

Yes. In another part of the country the effect of that type of funding would be seen immediately. We suspected that our application might not be successful, but we went into it with the broader purpose of creating a network. That has paid dividends because, between private providers and other public providers, we now have a very good network across the city. We have achieved that, if nothing else.

Deputy Michael Conaghan

A stunning example of how local, practical arrangements can successfully deliver an arts education programme can be seen in St. Ultan's primary school in Cherry Orchard, which is a very disadvantaged area. The school now has its own orchestra - members may have seen it on television - and music is a natural part of the curriculum. Children go to school with a violin case in one hand and a schoolbag in the other.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

That is the South American model.

Deputy Michael Conaghan

It is a central part of children's lives.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

Just the same as adding and subtracting.

Deputy Michael Conaghan

Moreover, parents are coming in on Saturday mornings to learn music. This initiative has animated an entire generation of students. If we did not have practical arrangements through the VEC, that would not have been possible in Cherry Orchard. The pooling of resources of which the VEC is capable, in association with local primary schools in given geographical areas, allows for an excellent model of provision. Without it, children would lose out enormously, not just in music but in dance, drama, mime and all of the other disciplines set out in the primary school curriculum. I am sure most members have read the five arts education books on the curriculum.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

Several of them are very dubious and written by people who were not qualified to write them. I would have given the job of writing them to Kylemore College.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

I thank the delegates for their presentation and Deputy Conaghan for his initiative in this regard. We are discussing an issue of value judgment in education. Much of the debate in regard to education has gone in a particular way in recent years. As Senator O'Donnell said, we are almost reducing education to the formulation of economic units. It is all about the jobs market and making oneself marketable. However, the wonderful thing about education is that some subjects deserve to be taught for the intrinsic beauty they possess and the pleasure they can bring. Music and art are examples of that. Learning about them will not necessarily make a person more marketable when it comes to finding a job, but they have their own justification. Unfortunately, these issues are sometimes sidelined in the context of disadvantage because there is a huge element of firefighting going in within the education system in response to numerous crises. There can be a tendency in primary schools and among educators to relegate music, for instance, to the second tier of the curriculum. We often see art classes being taken last thing on a Friday.

How do we make arts education part of the mainstream in primary schools? The initiative the delegates have described is fantastic, but how do we ensure that every primary school in the country has the ability to prioritise the arts? How do we empower teachers to deliver what the delegates are delivering? How do we deliver literacy and numeracy through the arts? Rather than compartmentalising these subjects in certain parts of the day or week, we must seek to devise a classroom experience where the arts are so deeply knitted into how children are taught that they cannot be confined to a half an hour on a Monday or Tuesday.

Have the delegates considered how there might be an engagement with the teacher training colleges in order to find new ways of prioritising the arts in the way children are taught? Education is about preparing oneself for the workplace in some respects, but there is a whole dimension of one's life that is not carried on in the workplace. It is about one's ability to pick up a book and read it for enjoyment's sake, to appreciate a piece of music or play an instrument, to go to the theatre and take in a play. These are wonderful activities which are there to be enjoyed. It is what life is all about. I would be greatly distressed if our education debate were confined to the nuts and bolts of economic units.

Senator Feargal Quinn

I find this discussion fascinating because it is an issue with which I am not very familiar. I was not aware, for example, of the work the delegates are doing. I would take a somewhat different perspective to that of Deputy Ó Ríordáin in that I would argue that the delegates have not made a strong enough case for the commercial benefit of having students who are versed in a skill or art. Over the years I have asked many people how they learned to play a particular instrument and it has often come down from a generation or two ago, by participation in the Artane Boys' Band or something like that. With the popularity of shows such as Riverdance and the continuing success of pantomime and musicals, there are now great opportunities for a career in the arts, whether in music, dance or something else. I was chairman for a number of years of the steering committee which oversaw the leaving certificate applied programme, during which time I visited Kylemore College. What I learned during that time was that youngsters who started school at an early age and lacked confidence ended up at the back of the class but when they reached leaving certificate level at 16 or 17 years of age, they discovered they were good at something. Once people are great at something they gain confidence, resulting in their becoming good at everything else. They may be good at football, cooking, playing a musical instrument, singing, dancing, art and so on. There appears to me to be a commercial reason for encouraging this. I am I suppose saying almost the opposite of what Deputy Ó Ríordáin was saying. I acknowledge a person derives joy from their involvement in art, music, dance and so on. However, being good at art, music, dance and so on also gives people confidence and may lead to their having a career in that area. While I am sure this is being considered, I did not hear that today from the delegates. I heard them speak more of arts for art sake. I remind the delegates not to be shy about saying this is also a great career move.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I welcome the delegates and apologise for not being in attendance to hear their presentations. However, I heard part of them on my monitor. I have argued for a long time that this is the missing piece in education. We have a traditional system, in particular at second level. Primary school is a creative place to be but there is a conventional exam driven system at second level despite the fact that our children our innately creative. I have worked with Irish children and was involved in assessments in this regard.

There is huge potential for creative arts education. I have a number of questions for the delegates. Have they met with the Minister, Deputy Deenihan, who is hugely interested in marrying the arts with education? I am keen to hear how it is proposed to fund the creative arts education centre. I agree that clustering is the right way to go. I do not believe every school can be the hub. How much is involved in terms of salaries and capital costs? How will this be funded? Have the delegates looked at the Fighting Words model? Are they aware of the Fighting Words creative writing centre set up in Dublin by Roddy Doyle? It is a social entrepreneurship model. Some 26,000 children have attended that centre during the past two years, not one of whom had to pay one penny to do so. It is a volunteer-led centre and an incredible model.

I live in Galway and am conscious that the roll out nationally is very patchy. One is privileged depending on where one lives, even if living in a disadvantaged environment. The delegates have as a result of their vision harnessed creativity in this area. Have they linked with national groups in regard to roll out of something like this on a regional basis? This is not possible on a county-by-county basis but could be possible on a regional basis. I presume as well as looking at art and education and music and education the delegates are also considering the benefits to life, such as problem solving, creative thinking, lateral thinking and so on. It was mentioned that KPMG was involved in the feasibility study. Did the delegates ask it to assess the value of the creative arts to the economy? As Deputy Ó Ríordáin stated, it is not just about that, it is about learning to enjoy life as a result of the influence of creativity in one's life.

Ms Jacinta Stewart

We all want to answer in different ways. I hope we do not miss out on any of the questions asked. We wanted to provide a local service. It was only as the service developed that we realised its potential. What Mr. Challoner described in Inchicore is a plc college co-operating initially with a national school, nothing fancy, no notions, no cost and so on. We generate one third of the cost of running the music school in Kylemore College. We have to generate one third of the cost music tuition in the music school. As such, fees are based on meeting one third of the cost. We were lucky in that as part of the development of the school we were given a co-ordinator who turned out to be as talented as Mr. Flanagan. Developments have come about in that way, which brings me to Senator Healy Eames's comments in regard to local services. We began to realise there was potential in this. Whether we develop it in terms of a creative arts centre is the dilemma. We could, for example, centralise a hub in Inchicore College of Further Education and do the work in that type of local way but that would give us a patchy response.

Mr. McCarthy will respond to the questions on numeracy and literacy. However, I believe that one of the huge benefits of arts education is that identified by Senator Quinn, namely, young people identifying talents they did not know they had. That is hugely important. It is part of what we do.

Mr. Stephen McCarthy

On numeracy and literacy, there is too much concentration on English and mathematics rather than on the integration of literacy across the subject areas. This is a big issue for me. We promote the integration of literacy across the subject areas in our Youthreach centres and schools. We are not unique. One of the big successes of the DEIS initiative, in particular the DEIS planning recently introduced into schools, is the awareness among teachers that education is not the responsibility of one but of all within a school. Music and maths are so intertwined. One could teach mathematics in a powerful way through music but we are blind to it.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

Yes. We do not make those connections.

Mr. Stephen McCarthy

No. We should be promoting Mr. Howard Gardner's series on multiple intelligence. I would have some hope on the basis of the junior cycle review currently under way. The City of Dublin VEC will be looking to that review in regard to opportunities to devise our own courses and how we can be more creative in that regard.

I reported to Senator Quinn when chairman of the steering committee responsible for the leaving certificate applied programme. There are out there a hidden world of youngsters who are, with the technology now available to them, leaving us sitting in terms of music. They are creating and designing websites for music which they are launching. We have a blind spot to this. There is huge potential within this area. The music industry as we knew it has collapsed. There are employment opportunities within the technology area. Often our thinking on the teaching of music is tied into grades one to eight in the Royal Irish Academy of Music or City & Guilds. Children are not interested in that. They want to play immediately, to compose immediately and to get their music out there immediately. They now have the systems to do this. We need to adapt to that way of thinking.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Perhaps Mr. McCarthy would comment on the funding issue.

Mr. Stephen McCarthy

We hoped to occupy a building space, which we were hoping to get by way of a contribution to the community. We also looked to the OPW in this regard. As Ms Stewart indicated, we now are looking back. Perhaps Inchicore College of Further Education is where we should be looking and perhaps we should be considering how to manage or think about our resources in a different way. It will have some cost but that must be restricted.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

On the staffing issue, what level of staffing did the witnesses consider to be needed as a core amount to ensure they could deliver this type of creative arts education?

Chairman

I will take Senator Moran's comments at this stage, in case a division is called.

Senator Mary Moran

I thank the witnesses for this wonderful presentation. I am not a member of this joint committee but am attending this meeting because I have a background in arts and education. In my former life, I was a music teacher for 25 years in a secondary school and have experience in both the VEC and secondary roles. I know precisely the excellent work being done by VECs nationwide in providing resources for music and how beneficial they have been.

I will mention a couple of issues. Everyone discussed the music today as though it simply was about playing. However, music in schools is not simply about playing. As a teacher, those students who came to me and who already could play an instrument could receive 25% of the marks available for the junior certificate examinations. It is a huge bonus for someone who automatically can qualify for that. Moreover, as 50% of the leaving certificate course is based on performance, those who can play an instrument have secured 50% of their examination before putting pen to paper.

It is fantastic that the witnesses have this facility to provide this education. In my own school, I set up an orchestra that ended up with 150 people. However, resources again were the main issue in respect of buying instruments and giving them out to students. Do the witnesses have a time limit for the amount of time students have use of these instruments? How are they allocated? Are they handed back at the end of a certain timeframe? I was obliged to do that because of financial resources but how would the witnesses encourage it?

Mr. Flanagan mentioned taking students to the National Concert Hall and to the Helix. I was involved with the school to which Deputy Conaghan referred in a concert in the National Concert Hall under much the same guidelines. It was the first time some of those children had ever been in the National Concert Hall.

Mr. Flanagan also mentioned going abroad and I had to smile when he mentioned he was due to go to the Edinburgh International Harp Festival. While everyone thinks that is great, I have been there and done that. I am familiar with trying to get cases for double basses and trying to pay for them and for the extra seats, Moreover, with a daughter who also plays the harp, I understand precisely how one tries to get something made and about the costs involved. I invite Mr. Flanagan to talk a little about this issue as well.

Overall, the witnesses are not giving themselves enough credit for the amount of work they are doing. While I could talk all day, I refer to the amount of music coming up through primary schools. Although it had been the case that music was one of the requirements to get into St. Patrick's College and similar colleges, that has been done away with. I found that many of the children who were coming to me from national schools did not have the experience because their teachers did not have the experience. A great deal of this is dependent on the experience the teacher has had in learning.

As for my own students, I found that for those students who had music and who went on to further education, it often was the linchpin on their curricula vitae. They returned and mentioned how their employers employed them because they had experience in speaking and had better personalities. They were better socially because they had been involved in groups. In addition, I proved that academic grades also were better among the students about whom other teachers always gave out for being involved in everything in the arts, be it the school musical or the school concert. However, when it came down to results at the end of the year, they were the students who also did better.

Chairman

I will take Deputy Lyons, followed by Senator O'Donnell, after which the witnesses can wrap up all the different issues.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

It is exhausting, by which I mean there are people in attendance who are on the witnesses' team and are delighted to meet them.

Deputy John Lyons

I thank the witnesses for their attendance. I am a huge fan of the type of measures they propose. I am from Ballymun and am familiar with the Ballymun music programme. Given that other places are doing something similar, albeit not identical, to the witnesses, what links exist with them? On a citywide basis, what is the best practice to develop? If, for example, I was familiar with another aspect of developments in the city and the witnesses were to present something that is for a particular area of the city but which could be rolled out elsewhere, on what level is there communication with other groups that are doing similar things, all to the advantage of young people?

Chairman

Does Senator O'Donnell wish to wait until the very end?

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

Yes.

Ms Jacinta Stewart

Our youth service, City of Dublin Youth Services Board, CDYSB, is involved in Ballymun and in the Ballymun project in various ways. We have only given three particular examples but we are involved all over the city in different ways, depending on how funding has happened or depending on local involvement. Some of it is voluntary, some of it is with the youth service and some of it can relate to adult education. There is a huge range but we have extensive contacts in every part of the city. As Senator Moran's questions were highly music specific, Mr. Gerard Flanagan will answer them.

Mr. Gerard Flanagan

One seeks solutions with whatever population one has. As for instruments, some children and their parents like to buy them. We have instrument banks in Kylemore College that the teacher there, Alan Kelly, farms them out to children each year. With CEOL in Ballyfermot, they often buy their own instruments on a rent-to-buy type of scheme. One tries to find solutions like that within whatever group with which one works. On the National Concert Hall and the Helix, it has been a very exciting process for us both to get kids to go to the National Concert Hall and actually to perform there. We invited the orchestra in St. Ultan's, Cherry Orchard, to perform at our concert last year and two years ago. It is really exciting just to bring 90 of their students on stage. It is a new audience for the National Concert Hall itself and is exactly how one would hope a national institution would open its doors, which is highly exciting. I appreciate everything the Senator said about putting on the show because although it is a slightly different model from the academic model, with that kind of thought it feeds right back into the academic model in a positive way. It is very exciting like that, if one has this structure set up in order that it is not simply a firework, if the Senator understands my point.

Deputy Michael Conaghan

I wish to comment on one point at which Senator Moran and Deputy Ó Ríordáin were hinting regarding the teacher training colleges and the deficiencies or lack of training of some teachers. When we were putting the project together initially, our meetings with the principals and teachers in the six local primary schools revealed that only one had a teacher who had an ability, interest or training that rendered that teacher capable of delivering drama and dance as part of the physical education curriculum, of which it is a part in primary schools. The question of teacher training colleges and their syllabus and whether drama, dance or even physical education should be more of a key component to the training that goes on in such institutions is an important matter. It is not one that members can address, but that certainly is the feedback from the primary schools in the Inchicore area.

Ms Jacinta Stewart

I am conscious that we do not have all the answers and are in a process. However, we think we have the beginnings of huge potential in education in Dublin.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

When Carysfort College was closed, the music and the drama went out the door, as it were. I was a lecturer there so I am standing up for it. I acknowledge that other things were taken up. I do not think drama has much to do with physical education. It pertains to language and orality and that is the key to it that was lost in the numeracy and literacy programme. They forgot about oracy and orality, which is a major part of drama, albeit not mime. This is how one integrates the aspects to which Deputy Ó Ríordáin referred.

I wish to leave the witnesses with two thoughts. I do not know enough about them and they must shout more loudly. Moreover, they must be prouder and must provide members with more information about what they are able to do. It is not always the great people who shout the loudest but the witnesses are great, what they are doing is marvellous and they must shout louder. This is a point I would make to any gifted person or organisation. A better profile is required in order that it will be easier to identify the college. I accept that it is my fault that I do not know more about it, but there are many others like me. In such circumstances, more information is required.

The college has created an extraordinary template. Will our guests indicate what they want us to do in progressing this matter? Members can make any number of speeches on the distilling of the arts, etc. However, what do our guests want us to do - from both a practical and a political standpoint - in order that we might assist them in furthering the work in which they are involved in the creative arts and so on?

Deputy Michael Conaghan

I am delighted Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell is present. Hers is typical of the voice we need to provoke, stimulate and guide the debate on matters of this nature. If we gather together all the insights being offered, it will provide extraordinary encouragement in the context of what is being done. Dance is part of the physical education curriculum.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

I was referring to drama.

Deputy Michael Conaghan

That is separate, of course.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

Drama has nothing to do with physical education.

Deputy Michael Conaghan

Reference has been made to resources, funding, etc. There are massive dormant resources in place. For example, the CDVEC has many buildings throughout the city and every facet of education - adult, community, junior certificate and so on - is catered for at these locations. Dublin City Council has divided the city into five areas and it would be good if an arts education centre could be located in each of these. The authorities at St. Patrick's College in Drumcondra are very excited about this matter. Those training to be teachers there are being fired up by their lecturers to bring arts education to schools. However, when they eventually enter classrooms, they encounter any number of obstacles in passing on what they have been taught. This is because of issues relating to time pressures, the curriculum, space, expertise and equipment. As stated, there are huge dormant resources and it would be quite easy to put them into use. It is disappointing that the building at Kilmainham has not come on stream. It was part of the Royal Hospital and built by Sir William Robinson. It would have been ideal for the purpose we are discussing.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

The National Concert Hall was supposed to relocate there.

Deputy Michael Conaghan

Yes. There are a number of vacant buildings for which NAMA has responsibility and we have been discussing their use with representatives of that body. In the context of the building in Kilmainham to which I refer, the cluster of 20 or 25 primary schools in the south-west Dublin area could all avail of it. A process could be developed whereby children could go there to avail of expertise on certain occasions and the experts would go to their schools or others. This would create a dynamic in local communities in encouraging artistic activity.

City of Dublin VEC has rewritten the entire genre of animated film through the work of another college in Ballyfermot. I served on the board of the college for over 20 years and I am aware that the work to which I refer was done on a shoestring. Some of those who took the relevant course are now winning Oscars. The teachers possessed ordinary qualifications, but they had drive, determination-----

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

Inspiration.

Deputy Michael Conaghan

-----and an inherent genius. They began working for the VEC as qualified teachers and have helped to completely transform the genre of film animation. There are those who would state backing from Hollywood would be required to achieve that to which I refer, but it was done on a shoestring.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

I did not say it.

Deputy Michael Conaghan

I know the Senator did not.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

I believe in inspired and impassioned teachers such as Mr. Flanagan. I do not believe in great buildings.

Deputy Michael Conaghan

I am astride two horses at this meeting because I am aware of what is required by those on both sides of the table. What is needed is for members with influence in the Houses to take on a role in influencing the formation of policy. Each of us could present a short report to the Minister in order to get him on board and begin developing a partnership between City of Dublin VEC, Dublin City Council, St. Patrick's College, teachers and Departments. All of the resources are in place, but they are dormant and have not been drawn together. I recall the row that erupted at 1 a.m. one morning when, some 20 years ago, we were seeking to establish what has become a brilliant music school. The row to which I refer centred on the kind of school it should be. The then Eastern Health Board wanted to remove the early childhood development aspect and we were obliged to fight to retain it in the school. The resources are available; it is merely a matter of realising them for use in order that the challenges might be met. If Senators Marie-Louise O'Donnell, Mary Moran, Averil Power and I and all the other Members present do a little bit, a great deal can happen.

Senator Mary Moran

I praise our guests. A great deal of what is envisaged depends on the goodwill, talent and level of interest of the teachers involved. Teaching music is definitely not a nine to four job. Most of the work is done outside regular teaching hours.

Chairman

The committee is probably going to take up this matter. This discussion has been extremely informative. I am one of those people who prefers boring facts and figures, but I found the discussion extremely interesting. Deputy Michael Conaghan will co-ordinate our efforts and compile a report. We will probably need to discuss this matter further with our guests and Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell and other colleagues in order that we might drive progress on it. The process relating to the formulation of our report will involve listing actions which need to be taken and results which need to be achieved in order to make such progress. I have no doubt that we will need to discuss the matter with our guests on another occasion.

What is the level of involvement of our superstars, namely, those who have become very successful and benefited greatly from their involvement in music and the arts? Are such individuals asked to assist projects of this nature?

Ms Jacinta Stewart

To be fair, when people are asked, they give of their time. I will not go into specifics in that regard. Under the Vocational Education Acts, we have a specific responsibility for music. We would like to retain this and also have a general responsibility for the arts under the new education and training board. I completely agree with Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell with regard to her comment to the effect that we have not been as up-front as we should have been.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

Great.

Ms Jacinta Stewart

In addition, we are not as good at selling ourselves because we are often busy doing things on a local basis.

We can extend an invitation to anyone who wishes to come and visit Kylemore College-----

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

We would love to come.

Ms Jacinta Stewart

-----and ask Deputy Michael Conaghan to co-ordinate matters at this end in arranging such a visit.

There is a need to strike a balance between the current emphasis on life sciences and the economy and matters relating to the arts which are part of the economy; they are not separate. In the initiative produced yesterday the arts are marketed as a sector. This matter relates to developing talents and opening up opportunities, by means of a huge range of initiatives, for young people and adults across the city. Deputy Michael Conaghan referred to animation as an example in this regard. What was done began life as a very small idea and it appeared that it would not work. The rock school in Ballyfermot is another practical example. Everyone thought those in City of Dublin VEC and the College of Further Education in Ballyfermot who were responsible for establishing it were mad. It comes down to having an idea in one's head and trying to go with it. That is what we are trying to do. I thank members for their time.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

We thank our guests. It would be good if we could arrange a further meeting.

Chairman

It is clear that there are three members present who would strongly advocate the cause of our guests. Those to whom I refer are the ones with the very loud voices. Does anyone wish to add to what has been said?

Mr. Stephen McCarthy

In the context of the development of the education and training boards, the term "vocational education committee" is going to disappear. In one sense, that is a pity.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

That is right.

Mr. Stephen McCarthy

In another sense, however, it shows where we need to go. The historical legacy of the VECs needs to be maintained. I accept that they have always been quiet and have operated in the background. There were good reasons for this, including that we did not want to be seen to offend other sectors within education.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

The VECs did not offend them with their talent.

Mr. Stephen McCarthy

No, but we will now. In the context of the development of local education and training boards, we need to be seen to be performing that function in a more open and transparent way rather than being perceived as hiding.

Chairman

On behalf of the committee I thank the witnesses for their time and I hope we will be able to work together to further some ideas and concepts in the area.

Ms Jacinta Stewart

We are very keen to help in any way we can.

Chairman

I thank Ms Stewart and I appreciate that.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.30 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 22 February 2012.