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JOINT COMMITTEE ON JOBS, SOCIAL PROTECTION AND EDUCATION debate -
Wednesday, 28 Mar 2012

Community Youth Projects and Traveller Education: Discussion

We will move on to the second item that will form the main part of today's meeting, a discussion on supports for community and youth projects which provide both formal and informal education services and proposals in regard to Traveller education.

I welcome the witnesses to this discussion on community youth projects and on proposals for Traveller education. As members might be aware, we invited officials from the Department of Education and Skills to address us on both topics; however, we then discovered that youth projects are no longer under the remit of the Minister for Education and Skills, as responsibility for the home-school-community liaison scheme and school completion programme has been transferred to the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. These programmes both come under the umbrella of the National Educational Welfare Board. Today's items are therefore more appropriately dealt with by both Departments. The witnesses are very welcome. I welcome from the Department of Education and Skills Ms Catriona Hanevy, assistant principal officer, school inclusion unit, and Mr. Chris Kelly, assistant principal officer, school inclusion unit; and from the Department of Children and Youth Affairs, Ms Mary Doyle, Secretary General, Ms Mary McLoughlin, principal officer, and Mr. James Gibbs, assistant principal officer. They are all very welcome and I thank them for attending.

Before we commence I must advise the witnesses of the protocol on privilege. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I invite Ms Doyle, on behalf of the Department of Children and Youth Affairs, to commence proceedings to be followed by Ms Hanevy, on behalf of the Department of Education and Skills.

Ms Mary Doyle

It is a great pleasure to be here today. We have provided the committee with a brief which sets out the main aspects of our work but it might be helpful if I were to spent a few moments describing the structure of the new Department and its roles.

Ms Mary Doyle

If I continue for too long, the Chairman might signal that to me. In my opening remarks, which I will keep brief, I will attempt to set out the structure of the Department and the main activities it undertakes in the area of youth and social inclusion. Is that in order?

Ms Mary Doyle

I thank the joint committee for this opportunity to be here today and to talk about the work of the Department of Children and Youth Affairs in this important area. It is the first time the new Department has appeared before this committee and we are delighted to be here. We believe we have a work programme which is relevant to the work of the committee and which we would like to share with it.

The origin of the Department is relatively recent with its formal establishment having taken place in July 2011. Deputy Frances Fitzgerald is our Minister and she was appointed to a senior Ministry in Cabinet, and the first Department of Children and Youth Affairs was established, with legal form, in July 2011. A number of core elements of Departments, which I will briefly set out, are brought together in the new Department of Children and Youth Affairs. The first is the functions of the previous Office of the Minister for Children, which had a range of work, including research, participation, child care, child protection and welfare, youth affairs - responsibility for which has originally come from the Department of Education and Skills - and a focus on innovation. That was the work that came from the Office of Minister for Children and Youth Affairs. Responsibility for elements of the Irish Youth Justice Service came from the Department of Justice and Equality. Responsibility for the Family Support Agency came from the former Department of Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs and responsibility for the National Educational Welfare Board came from the Department of Education and Skills. So there were four elements that came together from different places, and the task now is to bring those together in the context of the mandate, function and role of the new Department.

In addition to its own functions, the Department has staff from the Department of Education and Skills dealing with early years policy and staff from the Department of Justice and Equality dealing with the Garda diversion programmes. Those staff are co-located at the departmental headquarters in Mespil Road. It is an unusual structure but one we have found to be very successful in improving dialogue between Departments and outcomes for children and young people.

The mandate of the Department is to put in place a unified framework of policy, legislation and provision across Government in respect of children, young people and their families. Our recently published statement of strategy defines our vision, values and objectives and sets out our mission, which is to lead the effort to improve outcomes for children and young people. It is interesting, in this context, to note that in addition to the direct services the Department provides, it also has a role in aligning and harmonising policy on children across the Government. The statement of strategy was published recently and is on our Department's website.

To focus on what I know the committee is interested in - that is, disadvantage - the Department of Children and Youth Affairs is committed to supporting children and young people from socioecononomically disadvantaged backgrounds through a variety of formal and informal services. I will not go through all of the objectives in the statement of strategy, but I will draw the committee's attention to one in particular, which states that the high-level objective of the Department is to support children and young people so they can fully engage in active learning, including through the provision of high-quality early childhood care and education and youth services and addressing issues of school attendance and participation. I hope I have outlined satisfactorily the structure, role and key objectives of the Department in this area.

One of the core principles of the Department is that its policy should be evidence-based, and we have a major investment in research. Almost uniquely across Departments, we have a dedicated research team which, in addition to doing direct research work, is responsible for drawing up and putting in place a research and data strategy on children across the Government. This is quite an important development. Also, the Department is responsible for funding and managing the Growing Up in Ireland study, with which I am sure many members are familiar.

What do we know about children in Ireland? We know some quite important things. We know that children in Ireland are more likely than children in other countries to have friends and to spend time with them, to be happy and to take vigorous physical exercise, and they are slightly less likely to smoke regularly compared with children from many other countries. The vast majority of children and young people in Ireland are healthy, and there has been a notable decrease in both infant and child mortality rates over the last few years. There are, however, some areas of concern, such as the level of respiratory problems, obesity and mental health problems. I have a long list of facts here, but I want to point out that children in Ireland are doing well educationally compared with their peers internationally, although recent reports, as members know, suggest that literacy and numeracy levels have decreased. In summary, there are a number of areas in which children and young people in Ireland are doing well compared with their peers internationally, but there are significant areas of concern which continue to emerge and persist. The role of the Department is to be a major player in leading the effort to reinforce positive gains made to date and improve outcomes for children and young people.

Against that background, what are the key programmes and strategies the Department is delivering? The first is early years intervention, because all of the research shows that prevention and early intervention are far more effective than any remediation that takes place at a later date. There is a particular focus on improving outcomes for people from disadvantaged backgrounds. The universal preschool year, which we know as ECCE, the early childhood care and education programme, was introduced in 2010 and has been hugely successful. Some 94% of children in the age cohort between three and four participate in the scheme, which is a significant achievement for a programme that is so new, and underlines the value that Irish parents place on access to education. It is a major achievement. We know also that children from disadvantaged backgrounds benefit particularly from early intervention, and that is another reason we are pleased with the very high take-up. Despite the economic situation, funding for that programme was increased for 2012 to allow for changes in demographics. In addition, there are two other schemes under which the Department supports less well-off parents, by subsidising child care and also by paying for child care for eligible students on VEC and FÁS courses. There is a strong and integrated framework for early years and child care in place at the moment.

Another area in which the Department has been active with regard to early years is by funding, jointly with some philanthropic organisations, a number of early interventions under the PEIP or prevention and early intervention programme. I am sure many members will be familiar with this. The programme, which is co-funded, takes place at three main sites: Tallaght, Darndale and Ballymun. The five-year pilot programmes are due to conclude over the next 12 months. The Department will evaluate lessons from the programmes to inform policy development on a more widespread basis. Final evaluation reports are being submitted; we have some already and we have a timetable for submission of the remainder. We have a structure to distil the key messages emerging from the prevention and early intervention programme, which are of a high-quality international standard. What we are trying to do is to understand the key messages so that we can feed them into the mainstream universal services. It is quite an important agenda for change.

A second major area for the Department is youth projects. We have two main areas of responsibility for formal and informal education services, if I may make that distinction. Our youth affairs unit, which, as I said, was previously in the Department of Education and Skills, deals with out-of-school activities - I will come back to that in a moment - and the National Educational Welfare Board, NEWB, deals with school attendance and supporting young people in remaining at school. It is notable that in 2012 State funding for these areas totalled €112 million, which is quite a substantial investment despite the reality that there have been cutbacks over the last number of years.

I will briefly outline the programme of policies and strategies that exist with regard to youth services. The object of the exercise is to provide effective, non-formal education and developmental opportunities for young people. We have a budget of almost €57 million for this area in 2012. There are a number of schemes, which I will not go into in detail, but they include the youth service grant scheme, the special projects for youth scheme and the young people's facilities and services fund. There is a major programme of policy and resource allocation and activity taking place under this scheme, which represents the major aspect of support for the informal youth service. Youth work programmes and services are delivered to more than 1.2 million young participants in the various programmes by some 1,100 youth workers. Importantly, there is also a volunteer base of more than 60,000. Our key focus is on the promotion of quality. We have rolled out the national quality standards framework for youth work and standards for local youth groups. The emphasis is very much on supporting activity in that sector through a standards-based approach. We envisaged the creation of a wider policy framework over the next 18 months by developing a dedicated youth strategy.

The last thing I want to mention is the work of the NEWB, which is highly relevant to the work of this committee. Responsibility for the NEWB transferred to the new Department last year, and we continue to work closely with our colleagues in the Department of Education and Skills, as this is very much a shared agenda. The Department's action plan for educational inclusion, delivering equality of opportunity in schools, DEIS, is at the heart of that. It brings together a range of school-based supports aimed at improving educational outcomes in almost 900 target schools. It is our core policy instrument to address educational advantage. It gives us an emphasis on target setting and measurement of progress and outcomes. It provides a single integrated school support programme, of which the school completion programme and home-school liaison delivered by the NEWB are central elements.

I want to bring two key elements of the NEWB to the attention of the committee. It is a statutory national body responsible for encouraging and supporting regular school attendance. The Department has responsibility for the board but it is an autonomous body and questions regarding the detail of its work can be answered by the board. Its mission is to work to ensure children, families and schools and the respective interrelationships are supported. Its statutory remit includes advising on assisting schools, children and parents of children who have attendance or behavioural issues. Each year the education and welfare service works with between 8,000 and 10,000 children and their families. There is a significant amount of work and contacts across a range of areas, children and families.

The original structure was the educational welfare aspect, school completion and home-school liaison, which were all separate. In May 2009, the board was tasked with developing an integrated service and bringing the elements together so that it is capable of responding to the issues that have an impact on attendance, participation and attention. The key theme is one child, one team from the NEWB and one plan. The staff of the NEWB are working towards a seamless service from the perspective of the child and the family. This is a major change process being led by Ms Clare Ryan, the chief executive officer of the NEWB. She is working with her colleagues to introduce a more integrated and streamlined approach focused on the individual child. The board expects to introduce the new service model for the next academic year, 2012-13. This integrated education support service will draw on the skills, expertise and knowledge of all the combined services, including the 408 home-school liaison co-ordinators, which is a significant resource, approximately 250 school completion programme project workers and the 93 staff in the educational welfare service. It is a significant resource and one that will be able to provide an excellent integrated service as the new service model is rolled out.

Committee members are familiar with the school completion programme but it is worth focusing on because it is a major intervention in disadvantage. It supports 124 projects and related initiatives operating in 472 primary and 225 post-primary schools. There is considerable reach across the country and into areas of significant disadvantage. It aims to retain young people in the formal education system to completion of senior cycle or equivalent and generally to improve the quality of participation and educational attainment. Each project is managed by a local management committee and provides a tailored programme. Its reach is approximately 38,000 targeted children and young people across the country at risk of early school leaving. It is a highly developed programme.

The NEWB will also integrate the valuable home-school community liaison scheme, with which members are familiar. It is a school-based preventative strategy targeting children and young people at risk. The scheme focuses directly on the adults in children's lives, takes a wider view of the context in which children lead their lives and focuses on encouraging greater contact between teachers, parents and local voluntary and statutory groups to tackle local issues. It is a valuable and important initiative.

The research tells us there have been demonstrable improvements under DEIS with the introduction of additional supports. Given the scarcity of resources, it is important to ensure scarce resources are effectively targeted. I thank the Chairman for bearing with me. The formation of the Department provides an opportunity to improve the educational outcomes for children and young people and, by extension, the social and economic strength of our community. Many of the challenges we face as a new Department relate to the inherent challenge of change itself. Our responsibilities must be brought together for the first time, giving us an opportunity to look at quality and availability of provision, at fragmentation, duplication and gaps, and giving us a focus and mandate to examine service provision from the perspective of young people and families. Although it is challenging, it is also a significant opportunity. We have an opportunity to align a significant resource so that our services better meet the needs of children, young people and families. We will continue to work to improve services.

Ms Catriona Hanevy

I thank the committee for the opportunity to present the Department's position on Traveller education. I will outline the policy position of the Department, the challenges ahead and our immediate proposals for the future. The social inclusion unit is responsible for the co-ordination of Traveller education in the Department since 2003. The Department continues to prioritise available resources to maximum effect across the education sector to enhance educational outcomes for all children and adults, including Travellers. The Department's policy on the provision of education for Travellers is based on the report and recommendations of our Traveller education strategy, which was launched in 2006 by the then Minister for Education and Science. The report covers all aspects of Traveller education from preschool to further and higher education within the context of lifelong learning. The two core principles of the report are inclusion, with an emphasis on equality and diversity, and the adoption of an intercultural approach. The allocation of resources is based on individual education need rather than Traveller identity. This is the criteria used to provide all educational supports for children, including Traveller children.

In 2006 the Department set up an internal group, the Traveller implementation group, which consists of senior officials from sections of the Department with responsibility for all aspects of Traveller education. It is chaired by the principal officers of the social inclusion unit, who are charged with responsibility for implementing the recommendations in the report. It takes a three-phased approach and was set up to address the recommendations. It is to prioritise and address a number of recommendations as soon as possible and most recommendations should be implemented within three to five years, while others need to be reviewed to determine how best the Department can implement them.

The Traveller education advisory and consultative forum was set up in 2009 and consists of all education partners, the Traveller education groups, Travellers, teacher unions and management bodies. The forum is chaired by the principal officer of the social inclusion unit. The objective is to identify issues, including obstacles to the implementation of the recommendations of the strategy, as well as examining appropriate responses to issues identified. The forum reports directly to the Traveller implementation group to highlight the key issues of concern.

Since the strategy was launched, significant progress has been made in the implementation of recommendations. I will outline progress to date. For preschool provision, of 42 segregated Traveller preschools, only two remain and the rest have been amalgamated with mainstream early childhood care and education provision or closed. No new segregated Traveller preschools have been established. The provision of universal preschool for children aged between three years and two months and four years and seven months in January 2010 has accelerated the mainstreaming of preschool provision for all.

Improvements in Traveller participation rates in education in recent years have been recorded. Progress at primary level has been happening on a steady basis over the last 25 years. Progress at post-primary level has only been more evident in recent years. The September 2009 enrolment level represents more than a doubling of Traveller enrolment since September 2000, when there were 1,165 Traveller students enrolled in mainstream post-primary schools. The transfer of Traveller pupils from primary to post-primary has increased to almost 100%.

Resource teachers for Travellers and the equivalent post-primary service were withdrawn from 1 September 2011. Educational teaching supports to Traveller students have been mainstreamed and Travellers are included in the valid enrolment for the purposes of allocating teaching resources in DEIS schools to implement more favourable pupil-teacher ratios. Before this Travellers were excluded because they had the RTT support. Travellers are now included in the valid enrolment for the purposes of the teaching resources under the new revised general allocation model for all primary schools to cater for higher incidence special educational needs. That model will come into effect in September 2012. For pupils with lower incidence special educational needs, resources continue to be allocated following educational assessments through the National Council for Special Education.

Alleviation measures are in place in schools most adversely affected by the withdrawal of RTTs. A total of 60 such posts have been allocated, with 35 primary schools allocated 40 posts, while 18 post-primary schools have been allocated 20 posts.

Additional Traveller capitation has continued to be paid to schools where Travellers are enrolled. In 2011, €1.865 million was issued to primary schools while €581,528 was issued to post-primary schools. Enhanced capitation funding provided for Traveller children over 12 years attending primary schools has ceased, which was one of the recommendations in the report. Traveller children over 12 are encouraged to transfer to post-primary along with settled peers.

Four segregated Traveller schools remain in operation. Two were set up as primary schools and two are junior education centres. The strategy provides for a phased closure of these schools in favour of mainstream provision in the four communities. A phased approach is necessary to ensure that appropriate alternative facilities are in place for those children and young people affected by the closures. The issue of relocating the pupils to other schools or alternative provision within the catchment area will have to be managed to ensure adequate and appropriate placements are available. Consultation is ongoing with the patrons of these schools to identify the best approach for the phased closure of these segregated schools.

Training in equality and diversity has been prioritised for primary, post-primary and further education.

The visiting teacher service for Travellers ceased from 1 September 2011. While responsibility for the National Education Welfare Board has transferred to the Department for Children and Youth Affairs, the two Departments are working together to ensure that the services in the NEWB, including the school completion programme, home school community liaison and the educational welfare service have a renewed focus to more effectively target and support all children at risk, including Traveller children.

Traveller children are now accommodated within mainstream school transport provision rather than the previous method of segregated provision. This flows from the Traveller education strategy which states in respect of primary and post-primary pupils that: "Traveller children should use mainstream school transport in operation at present. Only in exceptional circumstances based on special needs should special transport be provided as a positive action measure." As a continuing positive measure, Traveller children availing of exceptional transport arrangements who meet the distance criterion are allowed to retain their transport eligibility for the duration of their education at their current school of attendance.

I will ask Ms Hanevy to pause there because we have the presentation and it might be better to go straight to questions. Some members must leave at 11.30 a.m.

Ms Catriona Hanevy

I will skip to the challenges ahead. Our main challenge is to implement the remainder of the strategy. Most of the strategy for mainstreaming will be implemented by the end of this school year. The challenge ahead is to implement the rest of the strategy with limited resources. Our main challenges in primary and post-primary education relate to attendance, participation and retention. Literacy and numeracy levels of Traveller pupils remain below those of non-Traveller pupils. Collection of data on Travellers, because provision has been mainstreamed, is no longer necessary but we see the need to continue to monitor Traveller children in that way.

Attendance of Traveller children at non-DEIS schools is also a challenge and we must adopt the best approach to that. Readiness for post-primary is still problematic in some cases.

In the immediate future, we hope to identify the recommendations that remain to be implemented from the strategy. The Traveller forum will look at that issue when it next meets in May.

Deputy Anthony Lawlor took the Chair.

I welcome the officials to the committee. I have some questions for Ms Doyle. She mentioned the success of the universal free preschool year, with about 94% of children in the age cohort participating. Is the divergence known in the Department in rates of participation between different socioeconomic groups? Hopefully there is a good take-up by those from more disadvantaged communities.

With regard to the early intervention programmes in Ballymun, Darndale and Tallaght, are trends emerging or has there been any evaluation of success of those programmes to date? Is the school completion programme confined to schools with DEIS categorisation? I used to think the school completion programme was confined to second level schools but I now know it operates at primary level as well. Concern has been expressed by those working on the completion programmes about their future. They have been successful in retention and attainment. Perhaps we could get reassurance on the future of the completion programme and the home school community liaison scheme.

We welcome the success of the mainstreaming project and that good progress has been made. There are other issues to be tackled. Are there many senior Traveller training centres in operation? From the senior training centres and from Youthreach, where substantial numbers of Travellers attend courses, is there evidence of transfer to further education or adult education?

Bhí an cur i láthair sin an-suimiúil ar fad. It is a difficult area to develop measurements and to have key performance indicators. What does the Department use to measure those? In schools around the country, the level of resources has been reduced. In Meath a school has lost teachers for Travellers, SNAs, home school liaison teachers and an English as an acquired language teacher. Some teacher losses would not be in DEIS schools but in schools that had legacy posts. One school in Meath is losing five teachers at present. Given the levels of resource reduction in these areas, how has work been affected? Does residential care for children with challenging behaviour come under the Department's remit? There seems to be a battle between private and public provision of services. What are the current trends? Given what has happened in the past, where allegations of abuse were made against individuals providing these services, how do you deal with those individuals?

I welcome the witnesses. The Minister put structures in place in July. The ongoing development is very encouraging. Progress is being made on the various initiatives and programmes. By and large, children in primary and second level education are happy and are interacting with their friends and community. The standard of education is adequate but more work must be done in certain areas.

I am most concerned about the rampant scourge of illegal drugs. Young teenagers from the age of 12 are being targeted. We have seen examples of under age drinking in several centres where there were confirmations. During the St. Patrick's Day celebrations we saw more examples of under age drinking. Young people who were able to buy drink legally were buying it for the younger age group. Does the Garda Síochána liaise with the youth clubs and with parents, who are responsible for their children? Drink is freely available, and young people are being drawn into the net. Addiction is posing serious social problems. What will it cost society to address the problems and rehabilitate people in the future? This is an area that must be addressed by this committee in conjunction with other committees and the Departments.

I welcome Government funding for these programmes. The HSE should give a high priority to early intervention and treatment of speech and language difficulties, dyslexia, dyspraxia, and to audiology and ophthalmology. Children are at a major disadvantage if their parents cannot access these services privately and must rely on the public health service. It was heartening to hear of the Travellers' situation.

Will Deputy Fleming be more specific in his questioning?

At present 31 Travellers are in further education and I think we should strive to increase that number. Should we reconsider the definition of Traveller? I was amazed to learn from the report that until recent times there was segregation in the provision of transport for the Travellers. It is a long time since the 1960s, and the segregation in Alabama. It is unacceptable to have segregation in this day and age.

Literacy and numeracy starts with the parents. Children are at a significant disadvantage if the home cannot provide the necessary back up. I am glad to see that improvements have been made in this area. It is most important that suitable placements are found when Travellers are in transition from primary, secondary or third level education.

Will the Deputy ask a specific question?

Have the witnesses a view on the placement of so-called Travellers when they leave education? Will SOLAS and the VECs engage in this process?

In County Kerry, there is a programme to recycle furniture and revamp it for sale. It is very heartening to see young Travellers starting work, developing their skills doing these jobs and being paid a wage.

Let me remind members that in order to allow everybody speak we must limit individual contributions.

Ms Mary Doyle

I can respond very simply to Deputy Smith's question on the school completion programme. The NEWB programmes, both home school liaison and school completion, operate in DEIS schools. The National Education and Welfare Board school attendance services operates nationwide.

I was asked about the take-up of the universal preschool year. We see it as a very fine achievement that 94% of the eligible age cohort avail of this provision, given the time it took to put the system in place. We know the take-up is slightly lower among disadvantaged groups and we are working with the county child care committees to increase their participation in the school year. We are very happy with the 94% take-up rate.

The evaluations of the prevention and early intervention programme from the three sites are not yet complete but the information is beginning to come in and will come in during the next 18 months from some sites. We will conduct a total evaluation of one of the sites in 2015. We do not have the academically developed messages, but the importance to children of a number of key themes in the intervention is emerging. First, early intervention is important; second, the child lives in a family and the design of the policies needs to be focused on the child within the family group; and third, we are learning about the importance of integrated inter agency work at local level in support of good outcomes for children. We are learning the importance of aligning the health, education and local authority services on the ground. We have a structure in place to complete the evaluations and to distil and disseminate the messages. We hope to see work emerging from that later in the year. If the committee is interested, I am sure we will be very pleased to present the outcomes to it.

Deputy Smith asked about the future of the school completion and home-school liaison programmes. Under the comprehensive review of expenditure, a review of the school completion programme, led by the Department, is being carried out at the moment. As we all know, resources are scarce and are diminishing. We are trying to undertake this review in conjunction with the board's current work on the development of an integrated national approach to educational support services. That will enhance the ongoing process of integrating the programme within a single national approach to attendance, participation and retention in schools. We are trying to be very clear about the focus and objectives of the programmes. We need to develop a better understanding of the provision, nationally, from various programmes. We need to make sure fragmentation and duplication are minimised and the approaches are integrated. That is firmly on our work programme for the remainder of the year and into next year. There is a job of work to be done on how the school completion programme is structured, what it does and the outcomes it supports.

Deputy Tóibín asked a number of questions. We recognise that the area of key performance indicators is not an easy one, as the Deputy said. One of the objectives we set out in our statement of strategy is to focus on the question of what appropriate performance indicators we should be looking at. We envisage that as part of our work programme, we will undertake a significant project on what performance indicators we should use in the context of business planning and performance management. That applies not just to the National Educational Welfare Board but to all our agencies. We hope that piece of work will get under way fairly shortly. That will play into the question of diminishing resources across the country, which was also mentioned by the Deputy. We will have to develop a better understanding of the resources that are already in place. A huge investment has already been made in universal services. We believe we need to revisit those services to establish precisely what they are doing in terms of expenditure, how many children and young people they are engaging with and how they can better use and mobilise resources from various streams. That is also part of what we are about.

Deputy Tóibín also asked about residential care for children. That comes under the remit of the Department. Special care and high support are provided by the HSE. The Department is responsible for the policy in that area. It is not within my area of responsibility, however. I would be happy to talk to my colleagues and come back to the committee on those issues.

The question of dealing with drugs also arose. As the Deputy said, it is a major challenge. I think everybody knows that. The objective of our work in relation to youth provision is to prevent risk-taking behaviour by young people. Many of our funding arrangements and our schemes are focused in this way. Work in this area is led by the Department of Health, as members are aware. We work closely with our colleagues in that Department. A cross-departmental team, on which the HSE is also represented, is working to improve longer-term interventions. There is quite a lot of work going on in this difficult area. It is important for the Department of Children and Youth Affairs to contribute to this complex area.

In the interests of the ease of management of the meeting, I ask members not to repeat questions that have come up already.

I welcome the delegation. It is probably quite a serious error to move certain services, such as the home-school liaison and school completion programmes, away from the Department of Education and Skills. The services in question are focused on the school and on the formal education system. They are measured and supervised from that standpoint. I do not mean to diminish the work done by the staff of the Department of Children and Youth Affairs, the challenges they face or the work they will have to do. The proposal to take these services out of the formal pure school education sector, and put them into another sector that does not have direct responsibility for the role education plays as a primary formative influence in the lives of young people, should be reconsidered.

There is huge potential for the Department of Children and Youth Affairs to be involved in the broader environment in which young people grow, develop and live their lives. I refer to the informal settings where young people try to shape their lives. Deputy Lawlor spoke about the role of parents in this context. The challenge is for parents, communities and youth groups to work together to try to mitigate the negative influences that surround young people and can influence them in destructive ways. The informal youth clubs that have almost disappeared from many parishes, along with the energies of parents and the informal community influences, should have a vital role in helping to reshaping, re-energising and redirecting the lives of young people in positive ways. That is where the Department's challenge is. It is a huge challenge. Services that relate to the formal education sector should be left to that sector. When I say they belong in that sector, I do not mean it as a reflection on what the Department of Children and Youth Affairs does or will do.

I would like to conclude by speaking about Travellers. I am familiar with two schools that have made huge strides to integrate young Travellers into the primary and secondary school systems over the last 25 years. One of the schools to which I refer is Our Lady of the Wayside school in the Bluebell area of Dublin. While I do not think we should draw particular attention to it, we could all learn a great deal by analysing the quiet and effective way in which it has done its work. I am sure this is one of the new responsibilities of the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. We need to learn more about how certain schools have sustained their success in this regard over such a long period of time. If the Department gathers information on that, I would like to hear details of it.

I thank the officials from the Department of Children and Youth Affairs for their presentation. It is quite a Department. It has responsibilities under many umbrellas. It is most worthwhile to focus on where education starts. I congratulate its officials on their work.

I have three specific questions, the first of which relates to what Deputy Tom Fleming said. It is right that the presentation was very positive, but it paid very scant attention to alcohol other than to refer to it as "troubling". What are the actual up-to-date findings on alcohol? Does the Department have access to them? Has the Department of Children and Youth Affairs initiated any research in this area? Does it intend to do so? Obviously, the findings of such research would orientate how it plans to go about tackling this problem. This is a huge issue. It relates to what has been said about interventions in families. Alcohol is the elephant in the room for many young people and their families. What is the latest research in that regard? Is the Department in a position to initiate further research?

My second question relates to something that happened when I visited the Citywise education centre yesterday. I was very impressed with the centre, which offers middle-school intervention and helps young people to remain in school. There is a focus on school completion. I nearly fell off my chair when I discovered that the centre receives no funding from the Department of Children and Youth Affairs or from the Department of Education and Skills. I wonder how I can go about getting some funding for the centre when I write to those Departments. While that may be a matter for another day, it is nevertheless a serious issue. As one says, they are 20 years a growing and there is no money.

I thank Ms Hanevy for her presentation. I note it states there are 31 students from the Traveller communities in higher education institutions, which amounts to an increase of three on the 2007 figure. I am not making a criticism when I ask if it is a reason for despair that since 2007 the advance that has been made is an increase in participation by just three students. Is this a case, to excuse the pun, of a tarmacadam wall? What is the reason for this small increase or does Ms Hanevy consider it to be a positive development? I have worked and lived with Travellers and I have done considerable programming about them. I know the problems they face, which are not easily solved. The increase in the number of students does not appear to be a major advance. I ask Ms Hanevy to elaborate a little.

There is much to digest in the report and a comprehensive analysis of some of the details in it is required. Does the delegation have responsibility for the special youth projects, which are known as SPY projects? I expect the issue comes within its remit given that it deals with socially and economically disadvantaged areas. The 180 special youth projects were benchmarked programmes established by either the previous Government or its predecessor. They specifically deal with children in disadvantaged areas and Travellers. Funding for the projects was cut by 6.5% this year, with an overall reduction in funding over the past three years of 21%. This has had a catastrophic effect - a term I do not use lightly - on children from disadvantaged areas, Traveller families and so forth. The simple and obvious reason is that many of these projects - without wishing to be parochial a number of the larger schemes are located in Waterford city - have been forced to reduce staff. This has had an ongoing impact on many of the areas we have discussed and which come within the remit of the delegation. I am not asking officials to comment on whether cuts should be made. However, Deputies from all the areas covered by the schemes will agree that the cuts are a retrograde step and have dramatically set back many of the ambitions of the project and the objectives of the delegation. This is the inevitable outcome of a 21% cut in funding over three years. How do the Departments plan to respond and how will they continue to provide the same level of support?

On the actions, monitoring and evaluation of the literacy and numeracy strategy among Travellers, we need a comprehensive analysis of the strategy for which large sums have been allocated. The presentation notes that average scores in reading among Traveller pupils increased at every grade level between 2007 and 2011 but states the increase is not statistically significant. I would value a report on the number of children evaluated and the extent of the increase in average scores. Has an analysis been done on the increase? The statement that it has not been significant indicates it is negligible or we may even have gone backwards in dealing with Traveller children.

I seek the delegation's view on the National Educational Welfare Board, NEWB, which deals with between 8,000 and 10,000 children and families each year. A comprehensive analysis is needed of the precise problems it deals with. Rather than informing the joint committee that it deals with between 8,000 and 10,000 families, it would be valuable to ascertain what are the problems being addressed and whether the figures cited constitute an increase in the number of families the NEWB deal with or are an average. Has the figure increased in recent years? Is an increase projected in light of the downturn in the economy and cutbacks in community projects and elsewhere?

The National Educational Welfare Board is the statutory national body which supports regular school attendance. While the Department has responsibility for the board, it is autonomous and we are informed that questions regarding details of its work should be addressed to the board. What happens if Deputies encounter difficulties in families which may be controversial or if families encounter difficulties with the board? I have had to deal with one or two such families. At what point does the Department come into play? To be candid, is the final decision on issues that arise in families made by the board or Department?

I thank Ms Doyle for her presentation. On greater co-ordination among services, Ms Doyle spoke about how services in the education system are being examined. To what extent is the Department seeking co-ordination between the different agencies, especially in respect of children at risk whose cases are being dealt with by the education service, Health Service Executive or other official bodies? An excellent project was established in Cherry Orchard some years ago to ensure all services that interact with children in disadvantaged areas are located on one campus. Is it the Department's view that this approach is working? If so, is it planned to roll out the project elsewhere? While I appreciate that resources are stretched, there appears to be scope to co-ordinate existing services better without necessarily increasing expenditure. Such an approach would probably reduce expenditure. I ask Ms Doyle to respond.

I understand the pilot projects in Darndale, Ballymun and Tallaght to which Ms Doyle referred are being reviewed. Is it anticipated that these services will continue? They are having an ongoing impact. I appreciate that one of the purposes of the pilot project was to develop initiatives that could be rolled out elsewhere and to identify learning that could be mainstreamed across the system. When projects are having a positive impact in areas with high levels of disadvantage, it would be crazy to discontinue them. The feedback I have received is that the pilot projects are doing very well.

On the decision making process that underpinned the previous budget, the presentation correctly notes that the research on DEIS schools shows they are working and the extra resources provided to such schools are more than paying for themselves. Was a cost-benefit analysis of the cuts done before the budget was announced? While the cuts would generate savings for the Department and State in the short term, they would have longer-term costs not only in respect of education, but also in the areas of social welfare, housing, crime and across the system. It is logical that the long-term costs would be much higher than the short-term savings. To what extent is decision making based on proper data analysis and a weighing up of the issues in advance?

It was signalled that the school completion programme is being reviewed. To what extent will this review be underpinned by analysis of savings across a range of Departments rather than being confined to the Department of Education and Skills? We need to be careful to ensure we do not cause problems for the future.

I thank Ms Hanevy for her presentation, about which I have a question on a specific issue. Following a review of the DEIS band one and two schools, the Minister announced that legacy posts would not be removed from the schools. That announcement was made about a month ago. However, I have had feedback from five schools in Dublin 17 by letter and have been in touch with the Department over the past week about them. Two of the schools have been told clearly that they will lose legacy posts. I do not understand that. How is it possible that they will lose these posts when the Minister has announced that legacy posts are not being withdrawn? I have the same question in respect of St. Laurence O'Toole school, a school outside of my area with which I have had contact. It has also been told it will lose legacy posts. What is going on in this regard? In the letters these schools got, they are informed that their total allocation is whatever and the posts previously notified as being legacy posts are being included as mainstream posts in the letter. This looks like a cover for making it possible to remove them at a later point, whereas the message they got previously was that the legacy posts would be ringfenced as a separate allocation and would remain on that basis. Can I have clarification on that?

I have a question to do with a situation that has arisen in my area with regard to parents whose children have gone through the preschool year but the parents cannot get places in primary school for them the following year. Is there a possibility of a second free preschool year or is there some leeway in that regard? I have just come across this issue, which is arising in areas in Kildare where schools are bursting at the seams.

Ms Mary Doyle

I will answer the questions in the order they were put. Deputy Conaghan raised the question of the assignment today of the function of the NEWB to the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. I will not comment on a Government decision other than to say that links are important and bolting pieces of the system together often brings the best result in terms of services. There are huge links between the work of the NEWB and the work that is done in the HSE in the child and family services area and between the work done by ourselves in the youth sector. We are trying to conceptualise this by putting the focus not so much on the institutions and the people delivering the services, but on the services being delivered to children, young people and their families. We are trying to think about joining together the institutional architecture in a different way and about how to pool our resources in the best way in support of young people.

What we are trying to do with regard to the valuable resource the NEWB represents for the country is to align it with the other services within our Department initially and then with other services provided to young people by other areas of the Government, community, voluntary and not-for-profit sector. We want to "flip" it, but the key questions are whether we are getting good outcomes for children and young people, what we know about the outcomes, how we can do better and how we can evaluate the services. That is the agenda we are trying to work through and promote. A key part of this is working with our colleague Departments. From the perspective of the Department of Children and Youth Affairs, we have very good working relations at national level and good institutional structures to support them.

An area I have not mentioned so far has been the valuable work of the children's services committees at local level. These do not exist in all counties and perhaps I can talk about that at another time. The job of these committees is to deal with cross-agency and multiagency working at local level, identify the resources going in at local level, plan for services and harmonise the work at local level. This must be a major factor in how we think about this. It is about mobilising our services to support better outcomes for young people.

There is significant local provision. The Department, for example, has almost 1,500 youth clubs across the country and 75 youth cafés and many other Departments and agencies have provisions in their funding streams. One of the jobs we are trying to do is to identify the provision that exists, as there are multiple provisions in some areas and provision generally is very uneven. Some counties and areas have sufficient or adequate provision while other areas have very little provision. We are trying to work with our colleagues to get an understanding of the total provision and to discover how better to align this across the country.

Area-based interventions are very important, particularly in disadvantaged areas. There is significant activity in this area and significant resources go to it and we want to work with colleagues at local authority level and with children's services committees to ensure we get better outcomes for children. Another development is the establishment of the child and family support agency, which the Government has decided to set up. This agency will take the child welfare and protection services from the HSE. The Family Support Agency will also be merged with the new agency. Work is ongoing on decisions on the role, remit and resourcing of that agency. This agency will have relevance to other issues and I will come back to this when responding to some of the other questions asked.

My final comment with regard to local service delivery is that we need to look at best practice on the ground. We have all seen some very good examples at local level where things go very well. However, it seems to us that we need to focus on the universal services. Significant attention has been given to additional projects or programmes or the extra funding stream, particularly in disadvantaged areas, but much of our investment is in universal services. The Department intends to spend a fair amount of time discussing and considering these issues with our colleagues across Departments. I hope these comments have addressed some of the issues raised by Deputy Conaghan.

Senator O'Donnell raised the issue of alcohol. This is a significant issue and I do not think I have time to go into it. The research highlights certain issues, some of which are very worrying, such as the age at which young people start to drink and the availability of drink. These now seem to be a fact of life. Sadly, many young people get their alcohol within the family setting. There are a range of issues with regard to alcohol and its abuse. There are a number of programmes in place, including programmes from the NEWB and the Department. This is an area where we have been working closely with our colleagues in the Department of Health and in the HSE. It is an area about which the Minister has a real concern and we will prioritise it over the next while.

Has the Department initiated any research on it? Is there anything I can read up on, apart from what I have read which came from the Minister of State, Deputy Róisín Shortall?

Ms Mary Doyle

Relevant findings are coming from the Growing Up in Ireland study and others. I will ask our research unit to put together a set of research findings which we can circulate.

Surely that would dictate much of the Department's policy in the next ten years.

Ms Mary Doyle

Yes.

Can we have a copy of that for every member?

Ms Mary Doyle

Of course.

This goes back to the growing drugs problem mentioned earlier, particularly among young teenagers. What are the statistics on that? Is the issue being addressed?

Let us get an answer first on Senator O'Donnell's question.

I think this issue will dictate much of the youth affairs policy on the ground, particularly with regard to families. That is why I was asking whether there was any initial research that will fuel how the Department does things and where it does them.

Ms Mary Doyle

While I am asking our research division to do the research on alcohol, I will also ask it to draw together the research on drugs.

That would be wonderful. Thank you.

Ms Mary Doyle

There is quite a body of research, but I will ask the division to distil it particularly from the perspective of children and young people and arrange for the information to be sent to the committee. It is a big issue and we have been quite active in thinking through what the research tells us and the implications for policy.

That brings me to the difficult question of allocation of resources by the Government. We know that resources will continue to diminish and that we must think about how we are providing our services. We have been giving a fair bit of thought to that, and there is no question in our minds but that some services need to be fundamentally re-engineered.

It is nice of Ms Doyle to say that, because when we talk about diminishing services-----

This service did not get any-----

Can we just hear the response?

I just want to know-----

Hold on, Senator. Can we just hear the response first of all?

I thought the director general had finished.

Will the Senator please indicate if she wishes to interject? Otherwise we will have-----

I thought the director general had finished.

Ms Mary Doyle

There are difficult decisions to be made over the next number of years. One of the things, as I said earlier, that we are trying to establish is the exact provision from a variety of sources to various projects, locations and client groups. There is a multiplicity of funding in some cases. We envisage working with the children's service committees, where they have been established, to determine precisely what the provision is within local areas and counties and then ask the agencies that are working on the ground to think about the priorities in that area, because they do differ across the country and one size will not fit all. We need to find a better system of marrying national decision making and allocation with local decision making and allocation. We have been successful in using the children's services committees to bring together on the ground the people who are concerned about children's services, and we intend to use that. There is no easy answer.

I appreciate what Ms Doyle is telling me. I understand about diminishing services and about the distribution of a very small pot. It is just that the particular service to which I referred had no money at all and had never been allocated any. That was the only reason I mentioned it. I can send the information to Ms Doyle in writing. I appreciate her answer.

Before we finish, I must point out to Senator O'Donnell that Ms Doyle is trying to answer the questions asked by everybody. If the Senator wants to come back in, I ask her to do so at the end rather than in the middle of the discussion. Thank you.

Ms Mary Doyle

As I said, there are no easy answers. We are trying to better understand what the needs are and what resources we have, and we are trying to mobilise these resources. That is the mandate for the Department.

Senator Power asked a number of questions, including one about the streamlined provision of services to vulnerable children.

Co-ordinated services.

Ms Mary Doyle

Yes.

"Streamlined" sounds as though I was talking about cuts.

Ms Mary Doyle

There is no doubt this has been a significant challenge for the Government in recent years. Again, there is no easy answer, but a series of initiatives are under way which are part of the solution. The first is the establishment of the child and family services agency in the HSE. The structure, mandate, function and resources of that agency and how it is designed will be crucial to managing the future of child and family services. Within that agency, there will need to be a service delivery model. This is, as members know, extremely difficult and sensitive work which must take account of the real needs of children and families and match them with a service that is appropriate and sustainable. I know from talking to my colleagues that they are working hard on designing a service delivery model which will attempt to address the types of issue raised. For example, there should be easy reporting relationships on key issues, and the Children First guidelines should be at the heart of the provision of children's services. There must be greater dialogue among the agencies working with children, and a clear understanding of the various roles and accountabilities, which has been missing in the past. It is a big agenda, but a lot of good work is going on in this area, and the Minister is anxious to have the agency up and running as soon as possible and to put the Children First guidelines on a statutory basis. This work will continue over the next number of months and into next year.

The Senator asked an interesting question about the future of the prevention and early intervention programme. This has been much debated, as members can imagine, over the last while within the Department. The aim of the programme was to have integrated approaches at local level in severely disadvantaged areas, which would provide better outcomes for children and young people. It was established and resourced significantly by the Government and through philanthropy, and an ambitious programme of work was put in place in the form of three co-funded projects. The object of the exercise - it is important that we think our way systematically through this - was to help us understand what was happening to children in disadvantaged areas, to test programmes, interventions and different ways of addressing needs, and to ensure the agencies on the ground worked together differently. The object of the exercise is better outcomes for children. The best outcome is for the mainstream services - the universal services - to provide the services that children, young people and their families require as part of their normal ongoing business. We will be considering the lessons that emerge from the evaluation in a number of key areas. We will have to think about the re-engineering of services. That is already happening in some local communities. It is not a matter of extra resources but of using what we have differently. We will examine what comes out of the evaluation in terms of best practice and the things that are absolutely to be prioritised to give children a better chance.

That leads me to the response to the question about DEIS schools and their budgets. DEIS is a particular programme which shows good outcomes. We need to talk in more detail to our colleagues in the Department of Education and Skills about how we evaluate and learn lessons and how we can feed these into the future funding arrangements for these areas. As I said, our aim is to have universal services operating at such a level that we do not, as a matter of course, need additional remediation. That will require us to think differently about how we provide services and how we fund them. It also requires us to have a much better understanding of the data and research and what they tell us.

The Acting Chairman asked a question about the pre-school year. In general, as we understand it, junior infant classes are generally available. There is an issue with regard to the age at which children are sent to school, which we will probably need to discuss further. The problem is that many Irish parents aim to send their children to school very early. Four years and eight months, according to the evidence we have, is the best age, but many children are sent to school much earlier. The current focus is on improving the quality of the free preschool year and trying to align it with junior infants. While there has been some discussion in various quarters about the provision of a second year, we believe it is somewhat early to think about that at this stage. We intend to focus on improving the quality of the existing year before considering any further extension.

Ms Doyle forgot to address some of the questions I put, including the questions on the special projects for youth, SPY, fund, the National Educational Welfare Board, NEWB, and the Traveller statistics.

Ms Mary Doyle

Deputy Halligan asked about the SPY fund. I made some remarks about difficult choices, reducing resources in the coming period and the need to think about overall provision and engineering of services. That is our response.

My colleague has given me a helpful note on Waterford. Waterford is getting €1.3 million in 2012, a significant sum. We will be asking people to think about how they are using their existing allocations and provisions, not only from our specific funding streams but in total. The idea is to turn it around and not focus so much on the amount of money going in but on what is coming out at the other end in terms of service provision.

We will have a systematic examination of provision throughout the country while working with our colleagues in several Departments. I am unsure whether we will be able to do that this year. We need to design a model and to consider it further. The object of the exercise will be to set down the total provision of services for children and young people and to establish what we are getting for it at the various levels. We must move towards a situation where there are service level agreements with providers based on performance indicators. We propose to do this work in the coming months.

Ms Catriona Hanevy

My colleague, Chris Kelly, will answer the questions raised about further and third level education by Deputy Smith and Senator O'Donnell. Another issue raised by Deputy Fleming related to Traveller parents. We agree that it has been identified as one of the remaining significant challenges. We must engage and support Traveller parents in order that they can support their children in education. This issue has been identified. The Traveller forum will work on a thematic basis to deal with the remaining issues.

Senator Power and Deputy Tóibín raised questions about the DEIS programme and the legacy posts and significant numbers of posts being lost. Schools have been affected by a combination of reforms to the teacher allocation process and budgetary measures. Schools had an opportunity to lodge appeals to the independent appeals board. The closing date was 23 March. I have no indication of whether the specific schools referred to have lodged appeals but I can get back to the Deputies on that matter. I can get back to the Deputy directly about the legacy posts in the schools referred to as well. There has been some confusion about how legacy posts are allocated. They are enrolment-based. This means it depends on whether a school has had a decline or increase in enrolment and this affects the number of posts allocated for classroom teachers. Other issues arise in the case of legacy posts this year. There have been major changes. We have moved from the top-up procedure to a staffing schedule and this has resulted in significant changes in schools. The best way to handle it is for me to get back to the Deputy directly in respect of the schools mentioned.

That would be helpful. I am keen to know the basis on which the posts are being lost. I have collected the enrolment figures from each of the schools and weighed up the mainstream staffing, the general allocation staffing and the legacy staffing. It appears to me that they do not add up. The Minister made the announcement that they were keeping the legacy posts. That is precisely what he said; he did not say that the Department was changing the way the posts were allocated in such a way that the school would lose them by some other mechanism. It would be useful to have the details.

Ms Catriona Hanevy

We checked the details of the schools mentioned and we got back to Members with the details. These schools are not losing any mainstream teaching allocation. It is only where there has been a fall in enrolment that a school might lose a teaching post. We have checked the schools mentioned by Senator Power and they have not lost any mainstream class teachers this year over the 2011-12 allocation.

I will double check it. I have been in contact with the correspondence unit. I realise it is a specific point. Perhaps I incorrectly directed the other question to the Secretary General rather than Ms Hanevy. The question related to the process used in budget decision making in the Department. I am not asking about the political decision made, which is altogether different, but rather about the process used by the Department. Was a cost benefit analysis undertaken before the budget while these matters were being discussed in the Department to analyse the immediate savings from taking out DEIS programme posts and the greater costs that would result from it over several years? Was this weighed up?

I am keen to ensure decision making is taking place on a fully informed basis, especially in terms of the impact throughout other Departments. I realise the social inclusion unit is based in the Department of Education and Skills. However, from a whole of Government point of view it is important that the decisions are reflective of potential extra costs in social welfare, housing, the criminal justice system and so on. To what extent did this take place before the last budget?

I have two questions. Ms Hanevy stated the deadline for appeals was 23 March. When will the announcement be made about the appeals?

Ms Catriona Hanevy

I do not have the procedure before me but the appeals board will meet in April. They are trying to tie up the decision on schools with the whole redeployment process.

Are there any future plans to review the DEIS programme schools, that is, to assess the position of those that are in the programme and those that are not? Perhaps the question was asked already. There may be an argument to the effect that some schools should qualify for the programme if the case were re-opened.

Ms Chris Kelly

The DEIS programme has been running for five years at this stage. We are looking at what we can do in future. One of the greatest challenges is that resources will not allow us to bring in anything additional. Given the way the DEIS programme is structured, one would have to carry out an entire survey because it is based on the relative disadvantage for a given school. It is not really possible to carry out a piecemeal exercise or examine individual schools. The programme was run in the first instance in such a way that all schools were surveyed and then ranked in order of their relative level of disadvantage. However, we are considering the next steps for the DEIS programme.

Does Ms Doyle wish to answer Senator Power's question?

Ms Mary Doyle

I will make a general comment in terms of Government decisions on the budget, especially the last budget. As the committee is aware a comprehensive review of expenditure was undertaken by all Departments. This formed the basis of the Government's consideration of individual decisions taken by the Government. That process underpinned decisions for the 2012 budget.

I read the report released under freedom of information legislation. The process did not specifically deal with a cost benefit analysis across various Departments. I understand that savings were offered by the Minister as part of his contribution and that he discussed the issue of DEIS programme schools, especially those with legacy posts. According to the documents released under freedom of information legislation the Minister's thesis was that they were in a different position to other DEIS programme schools because they had been given these posts years ago. It did not specifically address the question. From a resource and budgeting point of view, if it is paying its way and saving the State money is the decision logical? The matter was not addressed from an overall expenditure and reform perspective. Did the Department look into it?

We might correspond with the Minister.

The answer may be "No".

It is a policy issue. We will contact the Minister to get a specific reply to the question. It is not fair to put it to the witnesses unless they want to answer it.

I do not think so.

It is a good question and I will make sure we try to get answers or information.

Ms Hanevy said Ms Kelly would answer my question.

Ms Chris Kelly

The Senator referred to the 31 Traveller students in third level education. That figure is based on the 2010-11 school year and a survey at registration. The difficulty with compiling data on the Traveller community is that it involves self-identification. We do not know if it is the total number. Overall, in third level sector, including institutes of technology and higher education institutes, there are 102 Traveller students. It does not seem like a huge figure-----

Ms Chris Kelly

When one looks at where we have come from it is quite positive. We have to look at the positives when we can. I do not have the exact figures; I will get them for the Senator. I understand 300 or 400 young Traveller adults are involved in adult education and are following further education programmes and diplomas. That is quite positive and things are moving in the right direction. In her presentation Ms Hanevy referred to the rate of retention at second level, which has grown considerably in the past ten years. That will, it is to be hoped, come to fruition in the next five to ten years.

Senator Halligan has left. He referred to the ERC evaluation on DEIS which had a particular piece on Travellers to the effect that the differences were not statistically significant. That study was done in 120 schools and looked, in particular, at Traveller students in that population, which was quite a small group. One could not take the results on Traveller only groups as statistically significant. The ERC is doing follow-up surveys on the data it has collected. It will examine issues around Traveller students in DEIS schools and other thematic areas. There will be further reports.

I think the witnesses for attending the meeting. It was very informative and interesting.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.45 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 18 April 2012.
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