JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, DEFENCE AND EQUALITY debate

Domestic Violence and Forced Labour: Discussion.

Chairman

The purpose of today's meeting is to have discussions with some of the organisations dealing with domestic violence and forced labour. The committee will hear presentations from the following groups: Women's Aid, AkidwA, Safe Ireland, the Migrant Rights Centre, the Immigrant Council of Ireland and AMEN.

On behalf of the committee I welcome from Women's Aid Ms Monica Mazzone, Ms Salome Mbugua, and Ms Caitríona Gleeson. I thank them for giving their time by attending today and for the information they supplied to the committee members prior to the meeting. The format for today's meeting will be that each organisation will make brief opening remarks which will be followed by a question and answer session. One member will lead in terms of the questions and others may ask supplementary questions if they so wish.

Before we begin I draw the attention of witnesses to the position regarding privilege. They should note that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her or it identifiable.

Members should be aware that under the salient rulings of the Chair Members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Ms Mazzone to make her opening statement. Senator Bacik is the lead questioner in the Women's Aid discussion and Deputy Tom Hayes will be the questioner in the Safe Ireland discussion.

Ms Monica Mazzone

I thank the committee for having us here today to address the issue of domestic violence. Members may be aware that Women's Aid is a voluntary organisation and we provide support and information to women who are physically, sexually, emotionally and financially abused by their intimate partners. We have been doing this work for 35 years.

We run the national helpline which operates from 10 a.m. to 10 p.m. every day and provides support and information to callers experiencing domestic violence. We also have a one-to-one support service in Dublin and court accompaniment. Court accompaniment is a special service for women going to court as a result of a domestic violence matter.

We provide training on domestic violence through a range of voluntary and statutory agencies. We also do policy and communication work that is based on the information we get through the work I mentioned earlier. To give an example of that, the last time Women's Aid came before this committee was in 2007 and at that stage we focused on the much-needed amendment to the Domestic Violence Act to extend eligibility to parties that were without protection. We are very pleased that many of those changes came through last August through the Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act and we are seeing those changes make a real difference on the ground in that women who were unable to get safety orders can now get them. That is very welcome.

There is more work to be done on the issue of eligibility in particular as partners in dangerous relationships are still not covered and they do suffer intimate partner violence. We know that is part of the programme for Government, however, and we look forward to work continuing on that.

Domestic violence is prevalent in Ireland. The research done by Women's Aid shows that 18% of women who have or have had an intimate relationship have been abused by a current or former partner. It is important to note the reference to former partner because we might think that when the relationship ends the violence ends, and that is the case sometimes, but sometimes the violence escalates when people try to leave. It is important to note that because that is the time when we must protect people who are trying to leave a violent relationship.

Since 1996 Women's Aid has kept a media watch on women murdered in Ireland and we found that of the resolved cases 52% of women killed in Ireland were killed by a partner or a former partner. That is an indication of the stark issue we are discussing.

It is important to note that domestic violence affects women across the board regardless of age, marital status, religion, ethnicity or socio-economic background. We might believe it only affects certain populations but that is not the case. It affects everybody.

Domestic violence can take many forms. We usually describe it as being physical, emotional, sexual and financial abuse but it is often a combination of those tactics and it can be unrelenting over time. I took from our annual statistics, which I will leave here for members to copy, some examples of abusive tactics experienced both by Irish and migrant women experiencing domestic violence. Women are being beaten, slapped and kicked sometimes to the point of injuries. They are choked, strangled and stabbed. They are being threatened with weapons or threats by the abuser to kill the woman, the children or other family members. They are threatened that the children will be abducted and taken overseas, and Women's Aid has seen cases where that threat was carried out and the children taken away. They are women who are never left on their own and are not allowed to go anywhere without the abuser; women being raped by partners or ex-partners or forced into prostitution; women not being given money to buy essentials, including food and medication, or women being forced to give all their wages or social welfare benefits to the abuser.

I will focus on migrant women experiencing domestic violence. Recent research has found that non-indigenous minority ethnic women are over-represented in specialist domestic violence services. We must be careful not to view that as certain communities being more violent but rather it points to the fact that certain communities are more vulnerable or have fewer resources and that migrant women might face additional barriers when they try to leave an abusive relationship. Those could include, for example, language difficulties, discrimination, uncertain immigration status, having no independent income, unfamiliar surroundings, social isolation or lack of information on services.

I will touch on some of those in more detail. Isolation in language is an important barrier to consider. With most women experiencing domestic violence isolation is a feature of that but for a migrant woman what happens sometimes, and what we hear, is that the abusive partner might well be the only channel of information she has about the new country, her entitlements and rights, and the supports that are available. It is important, therefore, that migrant women experiencing domestic violence should be able to contact our national helpline.

Over the years we have been very concerned that women who do not speak English or who do not have fluent English would find that very difficult and that we were not reaching out to them. To address that I am happy to say that last month Women's Aid started the helpline language line interpretation service, which allows our national helpline staff and volunteers to talk to a woman who might call us in over 170 languages through an interpreter. It is a three way conversation over the telephone and therefore we can offer the support and information in whatever language it is needed.

Two other important barriers that might prevent some migrant women from leaving abusive relationships are a lack of independent residency status and the habitual residency condition. The lack of independent residency status is when a woman is in Ireland and her ability to remain in the country depends on her staying in a relationship with her abuser. If she leaves the relationship she is at risk of having to leave or possibly being deported, and that will stop her from trying to leave. I will not go into that in too much detail because the Immigration Council of Ireland representative will talk about it at length later.

The other issue I want to raise is the habitual residence condition, which comes up frequently with migrant women accessing our services. As members are aware, the habitual residence condition was introduced in 2004 and is a qualifying condition for social welfare payments. Some women who are not compliant with it might find that they might not have a right to work, depending on the type of stamp or visa they are on here. They have no right to welfare and possibly have no family or friends around, and thus they find themselves in desperate circumstances. Sometimes refuges are not able to accommodate them or can only take them for a short time. Due to the increase in financial constraints on services, they are not able to support women and children financially over a long time. This has a major impact on the women's and children's safety as the women find they cannot leave the abuser and, therefore, do not even try. If they leave, they find themselves destitute and may go back to the abuser.

I have a case study concerning a woman called Maya to illustrate the aforesaid difficulties. Maya is not her real name and some small details associated with her have been changed to protect her identity. However, the bones of the story pretty much reflect what is happening. When Maya first came to Women's Aid, she had been married for a long time and had been living in Ireland for seven years. She was experiencing physical and emotional abuse, often in front of the children. The last incident happened when she was trying to protect one of her children from their father, who was trying to beat her. Maya tried to protect the girl and was beaten herself. She came to Women's Aid and stayed in a refuge. After a while, she was refused social welfare and was really considering returning to her home because she had no financial support. The refuge supported her in seeking accommodation for the homeless, by which I mean she was living in a bed and breakfast with her children. She was living in a single room and receiving no benefit other than child benefit. She was a very brave woman and said that feeling safe was the most important factor, and that no money could buy that, yet it was very difficult for her.

Maya applied to the family law court for a safety order and maintenance order. She was refused the former, which is very difficult. We sometimes believe they are easy to obtain but they really are not. Maya was granted a very small amount of maintenance but her husband stopped paying it very soon. We supported Maya and wrote a letter of appeal to the social welfare and community welfare officers to ask for a review. That is the last contact we had with her. Maya's circumstances arose because her husband forced her to return home to her country of origin for a year. Although she had been in Ireland for seven years, she had spent one year at home, thereby breaking her period of residency in Ireland and making her ineligible. She says she can survive any conditions if she and her children are safe but that it is still very difficult.

Women's Aid or other such organisations would like to have this issue addressed in legislation so women dependent on their spouses for leave to remain in Ireland could be given independent status and leave to remain here if they needed to leave their spouses or partners because of domestic violence. That status should include recourse to public funds so the habitual residency condition does not remain the barrier it is at present.

Chairman

I thank Ms Mazzone.

Ms Salome Mbugua

I thank the Chairman and members for allowing us to speak. I work with AkiDwA, a network of African and other migrant women living in Ireland. We have been working for the past decade on issues associated with gender-based violence, gender discrimination and employment. Domestic violence is a key area of our work, in respect of which we have advocated, researched and provided one-to-one support to the women who come to our door. We have provided members with some information, which I hope they have been able to read in depth before I make my key points.

Migrant women experiencing domestic violence have many of the same concerns as Irish women over seeking a remedy and support, but they can face additional barriers due to their legal status. AkiDwA deals with women of varying status. We deal with women who have come as the spouses of migrant workers and with those who have come here on the basis of their having been married to EU nationals, including Irish nationals. We also deal with women seeking asylum and those who have become undocumented.

Our work, funded by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform in 2008, shows that many migrant women in Ireland have been subjected by their violent partners to various forms of abuse connected with their immigration status, including the destruction of legal papers, including passports and marriage certificates, the withholding of immigration documents and status renewal deadlines and abuser threats to report spouses to immigration authorities to have them, or their children, deported. Many women have raised concerns about spouses abusing their power in regard to status, which depends on those spouses when the women are here. Withholding immigration documents has had the effect of making some women become undocumented. That is why we are reinforcing Women's Aid's point on the need to give women independent status, even from the start, be they spouses of migrant workers or of Irish citizens.

Some migrant woman fear reporting abuse to the Garda because they feel they will be viewed negatively by their communities. When women report abuse, they not only expose their husband and family but are regarded as a problem in their wider community, even in their home countries. They may fear returning to their countries of origin because of fears of persecution or reproach for "shaming" their family through their having made allegations of domestic violence. They could be asked why they called the police on their husbands or exposed them to the Garda. That is a major drawback for many migrant women when they want to report domestic violence. Some have faced this problem in Ireland and some face it as we talk.

Some migrant women have language and literacy difficulties that make difficult their accessing of mainstream women's support services for domestic violence. There are women, such as those referred to by Ms Mazzone, who cannot speak English or whose first language is not English. They may speak French or their mother tongue. Some women who come to our door – there were two last week – cannot speak any English. One must get a translator or find a way of speaking to them. It is sometimes very difficult, even when there are leaflets available, to discuss issues of domestic violence. Some of the women have their children translate for them on issues of violence when they seek support.

Migrant women may be unaware of their rights and entitlements. Domestic violence is dealt with very differently in different countries. When women come here, they may not realise the law here may be more supportive than in their countries of origin. In their countries of origin, there may be community courts or one must go through one's family before one can go to the police. Women may not even know they can obtain help if they live in very isolated areas, as referred to by Ms Mazzone.

Ireland's lack of proper family reunification policies means that a migrant woman experiencing domestic violence, even if she wants to leave her abusive relationship, questions where she can go. The circumstances of migrant women are very different from those of indigenous women because the latter may have a friend or family member that could help. It becomes very difficult for a migrant woman. Family reunification is important to a migrant woman if she needs support. We have been dealing with a woman who had been experiencing domestic violence. She found herself returning to her husband every time she left him because it was very difficult for her to support her six children. This issue needs to be examined.

A migrant woman whose legal residency is dependent on a violent spouse may stay in an abusive relationship rather than put at risk her right to live in Ireland. This is a reality. Many women would prefer to keep quiet and stay in an abusive relationship than report the abuse for fear of being deported or being left without any status. Women have come to us saying that they have been in an abusive relationship for a long time but they failed to disclose it for fear of being deported. We have heard of women who went to report such abuse and were then served with deportation orders because it seems they were here to serve their husband's purpose. That is why it is important to emphasise the issue of independent status for women.

I specifically want to talk about women seeking asylum in this context because they are the most vulnerable migrants. With direct provision, they are kept in reception or accommodation centres, which exacerbates the problem. While waiting for a refugee status examination, which can take years, such a woman is assigned accommodation where a family is forced to share one room. We have a family of eight who were given only one room and the woman was being abused, so the children were witnessing the abuse. That woman was moved to another centre but she ended up getting her husband to stay with the children from time to time.

An abused mother may not be able to protect her children who, in turn, must watch the abuse as it is going on. If she applies for a barring order, her right to privacy and confidentiality is compromised as she must disclose it to her manager, the reception centre, the Department and the reception and integration agency. She does not have an entitlement to public funds for an emergency refuge. Such a refuge can only take people who are working and have legal status.

Another barrier for a woman seeking asylum is that she cannot stay in such a centre because she is not allowed to stay out of the centre for more than three days. She might thus risk losing her accommodation in a reception centre if she leaves.

We recommend clear statutory guidelines to provide for the rights of migrant women experiencing domestic violence whose immigration status is dependent on a spouse. They should be able to apply for autonomous residence permits, as well as having clear access to emergency refuge facilities, social welfare support and work permits. They should not be subject to restrictive community welfare conditions.

As regards direct provision, we have 46 accommodation centres around the country with over 5,800 living in them. Some 46% of them are female. We also have hostels for single males in the country but there is none for single women. AkiDwA has been calling for a long time for such a centre because some women may stay in reception centres for eight years. One can imagine that if women have been going through domestic violence for five years or so, they are stuck in a dilemma. We are therefore seeking at least one centre for women only. In that way, women who are experiencing violence can have access to such accommodation while they sort out their residential status.

The Immigration, Residency and Protection Bill should include domestic gender guidelines for the asylum and reception process. It should also include a protection mechanism for migrant women. Such asylum guidelines would definitely help, particularly in determining the issues surrounding women who experience domestic violence.

As I said, we definitely need a separate women-only accommodation centre. We seek the committee's help in obtaining such a facility. We are also seeking modality training and capacity building for people providing domestic violence services. They should take into account the issues affecting migrant women, including those from the migrant community who have a different status.

Chairman

I thank Ms Mbugua for her presentation and now call on Ms Gleeson to make her opening statement.

Ms Caitríona Gleeson

I thank the Chairman and other committee members for their invitation. Safe Ireland is the national organisation representing domestic violence frontline services in Ireland. We have 39 members throughout the country covering all 26 counties. Our work, together with that of our members, focuses on centre-staging the women and children who access our services to ensure that their needs for safety and support are met. We also work to profile the issue of domestic violence in such a way as to end the silence that surrounds this crime and to encourage a civic response to a crime that takes place in all our communities.

Safe Ireland has a leading role in researching and disseminating good practice to our members, other professionals and statutory bodies, as well as giving a public voice to victims of domestic violence. Last week we released our annual national statistics, on the basis of which we have been invited to appear before this committee. That report found that 7,235 individual women received support from our 39 member services in 2010. Of these, 3,900 women and children were accommodated. That means they lived in one of the 20 refuges throughout the country. Some 2,355 of these were children living in refuge. On 3,263 occasions our members recorded that they could not accommodate women in refuge because the refuge was full or there was no refuge in their area. Our members answered 38,629 helpline calls from women and their supporters throughout the country in 2010.

Safe Ireland is continuing to raise awareness of the enormity of domestic violence, which is a critical issue for this country. We are actively seeking leadership across all aspects of society, and particularly within Government to address what we consider to be a national crisis.

What are we talking about when we discuss domestic violence? Day after day, Safe Ireland listens to stories of mental torture, rape, harassment, aggravated assault and child abuse, as well as the death of an unborn child because of violence in pregnancy. Women talk to us about emotional abuse, being trapped in their homes and being abused along with their children. All the crimes we are talking about are largely unreported and unconvicted in this country. We are seriously concerned that we are seeing the tip of the iceberg as regards the women who come forward. Research tells us that only a small minority of women who are experiencing domestic violence and other crimes, actually manage to reach support services.

Under international human rights legislation, Ireland has an obligation to protect victims of crime. On 11 May 2011, following significant work by the Irish Government to develop the Convention on Preventing and Combating Violence Against Women and Domestic Violence, the Council of Europe opened the convention for signature. We ask the committee to consider why, as yet, Ireland has not signed this convention. Some 13 countries signed it immediately, while a number of others signed in August. We would like clarification on that.

We welcome the introduction this summer of the Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, which includes amendments making it more possible for some victims to access safety orders, all else being equal. However, considering all the legislation that women, solicitors and judges must navigate in order to convict such crimes, Safe Ireland wants an immediate, full and comprehensive review of the Irish legislation and court procedures to ensure greater accessibility, justice and centre-staging of all victim's needs and rights, thus increasing accountability and sanction of perpetrators for the crimes they have committed. Day after day, some men are getting away with serious crimes against women in this country and it has to end.

Safe Ireland welcomes the national strategy on domestic and sexual violence, which was launched in 2010, as well as the establishment of the Cosc office in 2006. In a time of economic cutbacks and changes to public services we are increasingly concerned about the resources to implement this strategy and the slow progress of a number of the actions outlined. We are also increasingly concerned about the limited engagement with the experiences of victims and front-line services in the implementation of the majority of the actions in this strategy. We are asking that the needs and experiences of victims be put centre stage and for an engagement with the national representative bodies and the front-line services.

While the following example is not directly relevant to the committee, it is relevant because it is about victims of crime. We are seeing changes to housing policy at local level which is resulting in women being unable to move on from refuge. The policy changes did not take account of the needs and safety of victims of domestic violence. As a result, women are unable to access rent allowance, which might provide them, once they have accessed safety procedures, with move on accommodation and not force them back into the home where the abuse is happening.

We are getting indications from our members regarding changes to allocations such as the front-loading of deposits and so on for women. These mechanisms were in place for years and they were facilitating local services to move women on from refuge. We are seeing an increase in the number of occasions women cannot be accommodated. It is relevant to the committee because this reduces the options and accessibility for women to safe services.

With regard to current service provisions, the Council of Europe has recommended minimum standards for the provision of services in Ireland and Europe. Ireland is ranked 24th in Europe, as we only meet one third of the minimum standards for refuge provision, which translates to 141 family places for women and children in Ireland.

There has never been a clear streamline of funding for domestic violence services. In the main, it is the business of the Department of Health and the HSE. However, we very much welcomed the formation of the victims of crime commission a number of years ago and a number of our services rely heavily on the victims of crime office funding, which may be small in the bigger scale of things but it is a critical lifeline to them to provide court accompaniment and one-to-one supports for women seeking legal protection. We acknowledge the importance of that and we ask that the committee considers that this funding be ring-fenced and maintained for services.

Chairman

I thank all three groups for their presentations and for the submissions they forwarded prior to the meeting. It is harrowing information.

Senator Ivana Bacik

I thank the three representatives for their excellent and harrowing presentations. I compliment them on the important work their organisations have been doing. Women's Aid has being doing this for 35 years and AkiDwA for ten while Safe Ireland co-ordinates the work of many different refuges and front-line services, which is hugely important.

I would like to focus on the abuse experienced by migrant women, since that is the issue highlighted by Women's Aid and AKiDwA. It is clear from the submissions and the presentations that particular issues face these women. They are disproportionately represented in statistics about women experiencing abuse as far as we can tell and the abuse is compounded by different factors. The committee should focus on the legislative changes that could improve the situation for migrant women. Both AkiDwA and Women's Aid have suggested a number of those. They have considered amendments to the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill 2010. The Minister appeared before the committee last week and he informed us he is preparing approximately 300 amendments to the Bill, which he expects to publish in early November. Clearly, we have a window of opportunity to recommend amendments and I acknowledge the groups have made submissions. However, what are the key amendments that could be made to improve the position of migrant women, particularly in the context of their dependency on immigration status and access to social protection? Are those amendments best made within the Bill or should they be made in a stand-alone Bill? AkiDwA presented other models in its written submissions based on US and British immigration policies. Would those be helpful or could we examine other legislative models when we develop amendments?

The groups have all welcomed the Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2011 and while they were happy with the amendments made to improve domestic violence legislation in it, they have recommended other changes. Will they specify what they are and whether they should be brought in through a stand-alone Bill on domestic violence or through another miscellaneous provisions Bill?

Safe Ireland raised the issue of national co-ordination. I acknowledge Deputy Hayes is the lead questioner on this. The figures outlined by Ms Gleeson are staggering, particularly in regard to the number of women and children turned away because no refuge was available and this issue has been raised in both Houses because it is shocking. Is there a difficulty with national co-ordination? Cosc was launched with great fanfare in 2006 and there was an expectation more funding would be available through this office for front-line services. Is there a problem with the lack of roll-out of that funding and with the continued low level of service provision? Ms Gleeson pointed out that only 141 places are available, which is one third of the number that should be available under the Council of Europe recommendations.

Chairman

We must suspend at 10.30 a.m. in order that members can attend both Chambers. I ask them to return at 11 a.m. to resume. I apologise to the witnesses for this.

Ms Monica Mazzone

In terms of the specific changes we would like for migrant women, the UK, US, Australia and other countries have similar provisions in immigration law, which basically say that if a migrant woman in the country as a dependent spouse needs to leave the relationship because of domestic violence, independent status can be given to her in order that she can remain in the country. The immigration Bill could be an appropriate place but we are having a review of domestic violence legislation at some stage and that could also be a place to put that in because this is an issue to do with domestic violence and that would be a natural place for it. We do not mind too much where it happens as long it happens. Together with that, migrant women in this position who are granted independent leave to remain would not be subject to the residence condition and would be able to access welfare and the labour market. That works in other countries and, therefore, it would be possible to do it here.

With regard to the questions about further changes, we were happy with the changes brought in last August in the miscellaneous provisions Act but there is more to do. With regard to eligibility, there are still people who are not covered by the Bill. Younger women in relationships with no cohabitation whatsoever and without a child with the perpetrator are not eligible for protection under domestic violence legislation. We know from national research that 60% of the women who experienced severe domestic violence said the violence started when they were aged under 25 and, in 20% of cases, it started within the first six months of their relationship. There is a percentage of people who experience domestic violence prior to cohabiting and they need to be protected. I do not know whether the committee is aware that last year Women's Aid ran a campaign, 2in2u, targeting young women in dating relationships in particular. Somebody not in the youth group at which we aimed the campaign contacted us to state if she had had the information 20 years previously she would not have suffered so many years of domestic violence. It is important that we offer protection to younger women who are not in settled relationships.

In reviewing legislation on domestic violence and eligibility other important issues could be addressed. These include interfacing domestic violence and family law with regard to child custody and access. We find that women go to court and get an order because of domestic violence but the fact that domestic violence is occurring does not seem to be taken into account when custody and access arrangements are made. Women and children are put at risk through arrangements that are not safe. Examining this issue when the legislation is being reviewed would be very beneficial.

Chairman

I thank Ms Mazzone. We must be brief because our time is quite limited.

Ms Salome Mbugua

I will be brief. For a long time we have been making recommendations on including gender guidelines in the asylum process and it is important for them to be part of the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill. The Bill mentions gender but critically it does not take into account the experiences of women who immigrate here from various countries who may have experienced gender-specific harm, including women who are trafficked and in particular women who experienced violence in their home countries. They do not have the option to discuss it at entry point when they arrive at Dublin Airport or wherever they arrive. If gender guidelines were included in the asylum process it would give people an opportunity to discuss it from the very beginning. Therefore, it is important that they be incorporated into the legislation.

We have suggested guidelines and have contacted the refugee application office on the matter. We emphasise the introduction of gender guidelines for the asylum process in the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill. It would deal with the issue of domestic violence but would be broader than this. It would also deal with women who were raped before they arrived here or who were trafficked.

With regard to reviewing the registering of domestic violence we need to take into account the fact that the policies in place are not inclusive. They do not take into account the diversity among women in Ireland today. If a law is not put in place we ask that policies are put in place to protect women who experience domestic violence in reception centres. In particular, I suggest women-only accommodation centres because this would help women living with their husbands among a community of people they do not know to go somewhere they will feel comfortable with their children. This would be helpful for women who have been in centres for a long time. I do not believe it is too much to ask for. If we ask for the reception centres to be demolished it might take a long time or may not happen but having a women-only centre would be helpful.

We asked for training for people working in reception centres because on many occasions when women contacted the Garda to intervene or reported an incident to the manager perhaps because of cultural issues they were not understood. If training about violence is given to people working in the centres, perhaps from Women's Aid or AkiDwA, it would be very helpful. These are issues on which we would place emphasis.

Ms Caitriona Gleeson

In response to the Chairman's first question on migrant women, I echo the recommendations made. The refuges work with women who do not have recourse to public funds. The problem is that making this public at local level could mean their funding would be stopped by local authorities. This is an issue and I state this with privilege. A significant percentage of those supported are migrant women.

With regard to legislation, we are conducting research on the outcomes for women in the courts. We want an analysis of whether it is an issue of court procedure, interpretation of law or gaps in legislation. This is why we seek a full review of the existing legislation and court procedures. From the initial part of our research we are very clear that from court to court throughout the country the interpretation and application of the rules are inconsistent as are the judgments made.

What fascinates us is that much legislation exists but if I were to be beaten in my home by my partner I would have to seek protection from the State and a court order and prove that it had happened. We want the victims' needs to be centre stage. I welcome the Government taking up the European directive in advance with regard to placing the victims' needs at centre stage.

Does the Chairman wish me to answer the second question on co-ordination?

Chairman

Briefly, please.

Ms Caitriona Gleeson

With regard to the national strategy, the main co-ordination we have seen is on the need to review the existing service provision. We have seen three attempts to review front line services without engagement with the representative bodies or services. We are concerned there is a focus on savings and not on service provision or safety. As I stated earlier with regard to policy, we still see statutory agencies focus on their own policies without linking up with each other. The Department of Social Protection and local authorities do not link up and women are getting caught between the loops.

While we welcomed the Cosc strategy we recognised it as an initial step. We considered the third progress report which was issued in June, and slow progress is being made on the implementation of the actions in the strategy. Some areas are working well and we are happy to provide the committee with our analysis on these. However, we are very concerned about the exclusion of the NGO sector from a number of the committees dealing with issues of environment, data collection and justice. The NGOs welcome the opportunity to participate on the public awareness subcommittee, the legal issues subcommittee and the national steering committee. Otherwise the NGOs for women's issues do not participate and have not been invited to do so. We are concerned decisions are being made which are not being informed by the practice on the ground.

Deputy Tom Hayes

I thank the witnesses for a very open and honest presentation. With regard to legislative protection, safety orders and barring orders what other changes would the witnesses like to see introduced in legislation that would help? Strong accusations were made with regard to men getting away every day of the week. If they are, whose fault is it? Are they being brought before the courts? Do judges let them off? Is the Garda Síochána not doing its job?

Chairman

Deputy Hayes, we should not comment on the Judiciary.

Deputy Tom Hayes

Will the witnesses explain further what they mean?

Ms Caitriona Gleeson

The answer to the Deputy's question in three words is "because they can". Sanctions are not in place. Many women tell us they do not even get their day in court. Last week, we did a piece on radio and a woman rang in and spoke about being raped day after day, being trapped in her home, being isolated and completely terrified and having her life threatened. Even though she had evidence of repeated rape which might lead to conviction she was too terrified to go to the Garda. What happens when a woman goes to the Garda? Excellent work is being done by the Garda and the Courts Service in pockets of the country. Policies exist, but the legislation is not working and is applied inconsistently throughout the country. For this reason, we need research and an overhaul. We are discussing change, but it is simple. We will stop domestic violence if the perpetrators stop abusing. This message needs to get across. We have no specifics on legislation because a review needs to be conducted.

Chairman

It is an issue on which the committee might be able to take a lead.

Deputy Tom Hayes

Ms Gleeson stated that accommodation was a significant issue. We are living in difficult times. What suggestion would she make to the committee or the Government on how and where to make accommodation ready without costing the taxpayer too much money?

Ms Caitriona Gleeson

It is not a simple answer, but I shall make it quick. We are realistic about the times in which we are living. The keys to a refuge in County Kildare are about to be handed over. We have been lobbying on that front in recent weeks. This service should be opened in November as a matter of priority. We understand the HSE is working to do this. For the past ten years, people have been lobbying in counties Sligo and Leitrim because they have no refuge provision.

There needs to be a local solution to providing specialist refuges. While there might be many empty houses, safe accommodation is the concern. Refuges are specialists, in that they are developed in a secure way, their staff are skilled and they have policies in place. First and foremost is women's safety. Access to private rented accommodation or social housing is a critical issue for women, but the 1,300 women who were accommodated in refuges last year needed the safety of those facilities. The other 5,000 women received supports from us and did not need refuge.

While co-ordination is an issue, victims' needs are centre stage. We would prefer it if we did not need to provide refuges, as it would mean that women were safe and did not need to access safety. Women do not present at refuges as the first port of call. They present because everything else in the system has failed them. We will not change this situation overnight. We need to develop what we have until we reach the point at which we no longer need it. Does this make sense?

Deputy Tom Hayes

Yes.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I thank our guests for their presentation. Ms Gleeson commented on the inconsistency of application. Bearing in mind the Chairman's warning, our legislation should be applied consistently across the board. Was Ms Gleeson referring to access to support services or women getting their day in court, to use her own words? Does the application depend on one's region?

Ms Caitriona Gleeson

Geographical inequality exists. I do not know whether members have experience of this in respect of other issues. It depends on how State agencies work locally, for example, the way local courts interpret procedures. In some courts, women are asked by judges to consider their local domestic violence support services, which would be able to appear in the courtroom as an advocate to support the women. In other areas, this is not allowed at all. Our members have told us that there are benefits for women in this regard, but these are affected by the different interpretation of court procedures locally.

We recently encountered a US example of this. When a conviction or safety order is issued in a specialist court, the solicitors work together on custody and access, maintenance and other orders. In Ireland, a woman can get a safety order, but she must return to the court to get a maintenance order, during which process the court clerk may inadvertently give the perpetrator the woman's new address, which means she would be at risk again. Policies are changing so that women are the custodians of their orders. The onus is on them to protect themselves. This is the inconsistency we are seeing.

Deputy Dara Calleary

Has Safe Ireland engaged with the Courts Service on this matter?

Ms Caitriona Gleeson

We are linking with it and gathering information to present to it.

Chairman

Ms Gleeson's main point is that the system needs to be overhauled and reviewed.

Ms Caitriona Gleeson

Yes.

Deputy Seán Kenny

I have a brief question on a point Ms Gleeson made in her presentation, namely, the housing policy difficulties experienced by women who suffer domestic violence. She may have meant local housing policy, how it is being interpreted and applied and the difficulty in accessing rent allowance. Is this a widespread problem or is it confined to particular housing authorities?

Ms Caitriona Gleeson

It is a growing problem throughout the country. There has been a change in housing policy in terms of housing needs assessments. If I need rent allowance, the local authority must assess my housing needs. Certain groups are exempted from housing needs assessments, but not victims of domestic violence. Without referring to their specific policies, if I move from County Sligo to County Clare, I am not eligible for rent allowance from the latter's local authority unless I have been living there for three of the past five years or I have a relative there. I can be referred to a community welfare officer, but the officer's discretionary policy does not prioritise victims of domestic violence.

The Departments of Social Protection and the Environment, Community and Local Government must get their heads together and focus on the victim's needs. If one is a victim of violence, one is more likely to want to leave the area. There is much movement of women from county to county. It is ludicrous that an habitual residency condition is applied.

Senator Rónán Mullen

I thank the delegations for their presentations and the clarity of their answers. I will tease out one or two of the matters discussed. I apologise if the witnesses feel they have covered this ground already, but it might assist us in our consideration of the practicalities.

That people are terrified to report was mentioned as a difficulty. Given that the organisations continue to have many clients, why are our legal system and the protections afforded by criminal and family law not doing the job? As we know from other matters where people are afraid to make complaints, it is difficult for public authorities or those who protect the public to intervene. This points towards the need for information and advertising campaigns to encourage people to pluck up their courage and to reassure them that the support services and criminal justice system are sufficiently robust to address their needs. We must always be mindful of due process. Are the witnesses aware of strategies in other countries that have worked in getting around this problem?

Chairman

Does Ms Mazzone wish to comment first?

Ms Monica Mazzone

A barring or safety order is as good as the enforcement behind it, but the latter varies. According to women and research, if women are accompanied in their legal process, they are more likely to stay with it. They are more likely to report a crime and follow through with the court process rather than withdraw. In this respect, the court accompanying the service that Women's Aid and many of Safe Ireland's members provide is crucial.

Women tell us that they also want to be kept informed. They want to know at what point the processes are and whether those processes are going anywhere. They want a point of contact. Initiatives of this type have been taken in other countries. For example, people in the UK are made more secure through what is called target hardening. The state might provide alarms and home security. The state works with the women to make them safer. This customised process brings agencies together. In Ireland, it would involve the Garda, the courts and the Departments of the Environment, Community and Local Government and Social Protection working with a woman to determine what she needs put in place to be safer. The women are more likely to be able to go ahead with the legal process if they feel supported.

Ms Caitriona Gleeson

Women will be good judges of their own safety. Safety of life versus being raped is often the type of decision a woman has to make, which is horrendous. There is a need for awareness and for confidence in the system. Friends and family are the main referral points for women. Women will work out what is a good route to go. If one of our members has a good reputation it is to that person women will go.

We need local co-ordination of all the agencies. Safe Ireland is not confident about approaches such as target hardening which only results in women being trapped in their homes. There is no evaluation to show that this is in the best interests of women. However, we believe there are examples in other countries that could be researched, including focus on perpetrator accountability. We are currently doing further research in this regard and would be happy to come back to the joint committee with examples of that.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy

I have just taken a look at the statistics from Women's Aid in relation to the number of calls its receives. How many individuals are involved?

Ms Monica Mazzone

I cannot say because the calls are anonymous and confidential. We do not ask questions for statistical purposes but often get that information during the course of a call. For instance, a woman might say she has called before and that would be noted. Our calls are support calls. As such the woman takes the lead and the service directs her to whatever support may be needed. We do not ask questions and certainly do not ask names. We are unable to say what number of women have called. Many women call many times.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy

It is stated in the statistics that Women's Aid received 297 calls from minority callers. How does that compare to the overall total?

Ms Monica Mazzone

That would be the number of calls from minority callers. I do not believe for instance that we could have received 297 calls from one minority caller. We do not know how many of those 297 calls might were repeat calls.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy

Okay.

Ms Caitriona Gleeson

This is an issue with helpline calls. We have interrogated our members to find out how many individual women have called. We do not seek data in respect of how many times a particular woman may have received support but in respect of the number of cases the service had in the year, which was 7,235 individual women in 2010.

Chairman

How do we compare with other jurisdictions in respect of domestic violence against women? I am aware there is domestic violence against women. Has research been done on how we compare with other jurisdictions in this regard?

The issue of sanctions and court procedures was mentioned. Has research been carried out into why this is happening and why the incidence of domestic violence is so high? Apart from sanctions and so on, can anything be done to prevent it?

Ms Caitriona Gleeson

There is prevalence data from other countries. While some prevalence research has been done in Ireland, it is very limited. We believe there is need for a robust prevalence study in Ireland. Previous studies have not had the national robustness to enable us stand over them. International studies point to the consistent theme of one in four. In terms of prevalence, Ireland is as bad as everywhere else.

As regards other things that can be done, we need a cultural shift in this country in terms of behaviour and relationship behaviour, including the perpetration of violence in intimate relationships. We would like more understanding of why this is happening. We do not have one clear cut answer and would like work to find out more about why perpetrators abuse. We do know awareness raising is key. However, it must be awareness raising that focuses on the perpetrator's behaviour or on the role of the bystander that does not try to reinforce a victim blaming culture. That is rooted in all that we do and is critical.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy

Is much being done here in terms of working with perpetrators to change their behaviour? Are there therapies and so on available here for such people?

Ms Caitriona Gleeson

There are a number of perpetrator programmes in the country. Some of our members operate a partner support service through these perpetrator programmes. There is a perpetrator committee sitting as part of the overall Government strategy but there are no women representatives on that committee. As such, we are not getting to ask the questions of the programmes in order to evaluate them from the perspective of women.

Chairman

I thank the delegations for their attendance and engagement with us on this serious issue. We will continue our work on this as best we can. I invite the delegations to forward to the clerk any suggestions, detailed proposals or amendments they may have in respect of the immigration Bill or any other legislation in respect of which they wish to engage with us.

I suggested earlier that the joint committee might take a break but I believe now that if we do take a break it might be difficult for us to reconvene. I am conscious people have been here for a while so I suggest we continue with the other groups. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I thank the delegations for coming here today. I apologise if Members are coming and going from the meeting all the time, which is no disrespect to anyone but relates to the pressure of business in the Houses.

I welcome Ms Gráinne O'Toole and Ms Mariaam Bhatti, Migrant Rights Centre, Ms Catherine Cosgrave, Immigration Council of Ireland and Mr. Declan Keaveney, AMEN.

Members should be aware that under the salient rulings of the Chair members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I now invite Ms O'Toole to make a brief opening statement on behalf of the Migrant Rights Centre.

Ms Grainne O’Toole

I thank the joint committee for inviting us here today to speak about forced labour. My colleague and I, Ms Bhatti, will be presenting our statement today. I would like first to say a little about the Migrant Rights Centre and the forced labour situations it has come across in Ireland.

The Migrant Rights Centre is a national organisation working to promote justice, equality and empowerment for migrant workers and their families. We specifically work with migrant workers and their families who are vulnerable to poverty, discrimination and social exclusion. Our resource centre has, during the past ten years, helped hundreds of migrant workers suffering from workplace exploitation. Through this work, specifically in the last six years, we have come across the issue of forced labour. This is at the severe end of the continuum of exploitation. We have dealt with 150 cases of forced labour in the last six years. There is no law in Ireland to deal with problem but we believe we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg. We are the only organisation, NGO or State, dealing with this issue in Ireland. Our belief that it is only the tip of the iceberg that we are seeing is borne out by the International Labour Organisation, which says that its experience globally is that where NGOs are firefighting, the extent of forced labour is hidden.

We will explain the nature of forced labour and how it impacts on workers. We will then talk about what is required to deal with this issue and finally make a few key recommendations.

Ms Mariaam Bhatti

I thank the committee for giving us the opportunity to talk about forced labour. My name is Mariaam Bhatti, I am South African and I have been in Ireland for 15 months and I am someone who has experienced forced labour. My first experience of forced labour happened the very first day I set foot on Irish soil and lasted for six months. It gave me the will to join my colleagues and come together to fight forced labour.

As outlined by the ILO, forced labour is a severe form of exploitation, where the worker performs work against his or her will and against his rights. The International Labour Organisation's Convention Article No. 29 of 1930 requires forced labour to be punished as a criminal offence. Indicators have been developed by the ILO to assist in the identification of forced labour, such as threats of or actual physical or sexual violence, restriction of movement and confinement to the workplace or a limited area, which I and most of my fellow activists experienced; debt bondage, where a worker works to pay off a debt or loan and is not paid for his or her services; withholding of wages; refusing to pay the worker or excessive wage reductions; and threat of denunciation to the authorities. These are daily occurrences and when I look at them I think that I went through that, as did my fellow activists but nothing was done. I know it had an effect on me.

Forced labour is a real problem that must be taken seriously. We went through it. I only went through six months but each day and hour was torture. In the group, however, I am one of those who experienced the shortest time being exploited. Most of my fellow activists were held in these conditions for two or more years. Those who have suffered forced labour must be valued and treated as human beings. Their rights must be protected and upheld.

The forced labourers' work is not appreciated or valued. If people are forced to work under those conditions, they feel half human. They suffer both mental and physical abuse and are forced to work long hours without breaks, affecting their health and well-being in both the short and long-term. The trust they showed their employer has been abused. The employers, however, suffer no penalties. We have meetings every day to talk about forced labour but we are a laughing stock to the employers. Those employers who use forced labour must be penalised.

Who does forced labour affect? It can affect anyone. In our group, people worked in various sectors but mostly it affected those in sectors that are not properly regulated. I worked as a domestic worker, like most of my colleagues, but some worked in restaurants or the construction industry; it affects people in different areas, particularly the non-unionised and non-regulated sectors, such as private homes, restaurants, agriculture, entertainment and construction. Gender, ethnicity and class are often the key determinants. Most of those in our group are migrants. I am not saying that only migrants go through this but employers know migrants have no form of support and know nothing of the country. The day I arrived in Ireland I was set to work and I knew nothing; I did not know where I was in Dublin and I knew nothing about the minimum wage or how to ask for help or about my rights. Employers would always use that. Forced labour, therefore, can affect migrant workers disproportionately.

The intercession of immigration authorities also needs attention. Becoming undocumented because of forced labour is a critical issue. Most of the workers who were brought over to work were lied to and when they get here they realise the employer has not applied for work permits and they are then undocumented, leaving them subject to more exploitation. They are unable then to do anything about that.

Chairman

This is the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality so while some of this overlaps with labour law and enterprise, and I am aware of the need for coordination, we wish to focus on the justice side.

Ms Gráinne O’Toole

The key issue is the identification of enforced labour. If the cases and issues are not identified, the issue is obsolete. We were keen to talk to this committee because we need legislation on this issue that goes beyond employment law because emotional, psychologic and physical abuse are involved. We have seen in Britain the introduction of a specific offence to cover modern forms of slavery. I have circulated press cuttings on coverage of such cases. There was a case where more than 20 people were discovered in forced labour. Of the group, 14 were British and others were from other EU countries. This shows how it can affect anyone. The police were able to assess those cases for emotional distress, which we cannot do.

This also leads to the problem with identification. We have submitted complaints to the Garda about forced labour but often we are told they could walk out of the house, that the people were not chained up. There is a common misconception that forced labour involves chaining people up but it is much more complex. Modern techniques are used to control people and keep them coerced. Deception and fraud are also involved in this situation. We are losing ground by not having legislation and protection for victims because the techniques are becoming more sophisticated to keep people in bonded labour and it is a profitable business. In Ireland, if a person is kept in forced labour for a number of years, the most they might get is some backpay. That is the most we can do; we can go to the employment courts.

We would like the committee to assist us and we have proposals that would address the problem. We need a law not just because of the issue itself but because we do not comply with Article 4 of the European Convention on Human Rights by not having one. We are also out of synch with our commitments, which we signed up to in the ILO Convention on the Abolition of Slavery. We need to bring ourselves into compliance. The Department of Justice and Equality is aware of this and has taken up the issue. The Criminal Law (Human Trafficking) Act 2008 deals with forced labour but only at the outcome of trafficking. Many of our cases have nothing to do with trafficking. We cannot help people who are in forced labour. We have asked the Department to put forward a legal opinion to the Attorney General to see if we could include forced labour as a standalone offence. We have asked for assistance in following through on that because we have heard no significant information on the updated position of that request. The key to this is protection for victims. My colleague, Ms Mariaam Bhatti raised a key point, namely, if we do not have a scheme of protection for victims, we cannot help them. We are in a difficult situation, we know people are in forced labour but we have no way of getting them to safety. We have nothing to offer them. We identify people, but we can do very little to help them. We may be able to get them into a State hostel for a short period. If they have no papers in the State it is very difficult to get immigration status. For EU workers who are made homeless, immigration does not arise. What is required is a service that allows us to ensure those who require accommodation, counselling or a medical assessment are able to get it.

The other requirement is that State agencies take a lead and have these services mainstreamed. We are firefighting at present. We have nothing to offer people and have no mechanism to stamp out this heinous crime. The Department of Justice and Equality is taking a lead and we need it to co-operate, as the Chairman suggested, with the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. That Department needs to look at the extent of forced labour across industries in Ireland. There are ways of finding out that information and doing case studies and work on the ground, which needs to happen as a matter of urgency. I know the Department of Justice and Equality is interested but it is not a political priority because it is not included in legislation. Nobody feels it is their brief.

The Garda Síochána also needs to be able to respond to forced labour. We have referred cases to the Garda, asking if there is anything the force can do, but it does not have a mandate to deal with forced labour. We need to ensure gardaí have the powers to deal with this. The Garda Síochána must work closely with the labour inspectorate on this issue. The NGOs have highlighted the difficulties that the labour inspectorate in the United Kingdom has had with its legislation because it has not knitted in the labour inspectorate into the law, which was a pity because the labour inspectorate does not have a key brief around forced labour. Its staff are the people likely to be out in workplaces, inspecting and who need to be in a position to identify forced labour. I hope we could build on that experience. When we are considering legislation, we must ensure the role of the labour inspectorate is incorporated in the Bill.

Ms Bhatti will highlight our key recommendation and we will then answer questions.

Ms Mariaam Bhatti

I will talk about the recommendations, which we would like to see implemented.

An offence of forced labour should be created in Irish law. The legislation should include a specific role and powers for the National Employment Rights Authority, NERA, to identify, assess and inspect cases of forced labour, refer forced labour to the National Bureau of Criminal Investigation, NBCI, for criminal investigations, and assist victims in accessing the victim protection scheme. The legislation should include provision to protect the rights of undocumented workers to pursue compensation or arrears in the normal way. We are not saying that NERA is not doing its work. It is doing a great job but its role is limited.

Let us take an example, if a person phoned to say he or she was coming to inspect the house, obviously I would run around and clean my house so that when he or she came, it would be sparkling. If NERA had the power to visit a home and demand entry to inspect it, that would help. If people work in restaurants and are not isolated as in the domestic sector, once NERA phones to make an appointment the restaurant owners can easily ask a worker not to come to work on the day the inspector is coming. I wish that the powers of NERA would be extended. We would like to see the establishment of a specific protection scheme for victims, to ensure that victims are eligible for protection, have immigrant status, the right to work, accommodation and counselling while they recover from their experiences. Most of us never received that. Having gone through such a traumatic experience is so difficult. I only went through it for six months, but it was hell for me. I cannot bear to think of what some of my colleagues went through for years. I think they required counselling and better shelter than just being dumped in hostels and told to wait until the investigations were completed. The investigation could take two or three years and the person had no permission to work during that period.

The Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation should be mandated to be a key driver in co-ordinating the development and delivery of strategies and action to target forced labour. It can be hard for people who have been in forced labour to get back to work. Having gone through that investigation, one would not have good relations with the employer. While one has experience of working, one does not have a reference. One cannot openly tell a potential employer that one has been exploited and the employer did not give a reference. One would need support to return to the workforce.

I thank members for listening.

Chairman

I invite Ms Catherine Cosgrave to make a submission on behalf of the Immigrant Council of Ireland.

Ms Catherine Cosgrave

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee. We welcome this opportunity to make a presentation to the joint committee and believe that the focus on the issue of domestic violence is timely in light of the recent figures published by Safe Ireland and the recent adoption of the Council of Europe convention on combating and preventing domestic violence and violence against women in general. It was highlighted this morning that Ireland has not yet signed the convention.

The Immigrant Council of Ireland, ICI, was established in 2001 to provide an innovative response to migrants and their family members living in Ireland. We are unique in the NGO sector dealing with migrants' rights, operate as an independent law centre and have done since 2006. The ICI responds annually to approximately 10,000 queries from individuals, organisations and other legal practitioners throughout the country. Within our legal support unit, we prioritise support for migrants who have experienced human rights abuses in Ireland. We focus in particular on vulnerable migrants and have a specialist support service for particular categories, including women who have been trafficked to Ireland for the purposes of sexual exploitation, migrant women experiencing domestic violence and unaccompanied migrants and migrant children and young adults, specifically those who are not in the asylum process.

In responding to individuals, we accept individuals presenting directly to our services as well as referrals from other external organisations such as the organisations represented here today but also from other statutory agencies, including the HSE and other health care professions, particularly social workers. I should highlight that we have limited capacity to respond to all the queries that we receive. We currently employ two solicitors, but one is on maternity leave, which obviously limits the volume of work we can respond to, specifically on the issue of domestic violence, the issue before the committee. We do not have the full figures to date, but in the year to date, we estimate we have responded to 100 calls directly to our own services and 18 of these cases have been referred for support to the legal services unit. Our remit is in the area of domestic violence and migrant women. We would like to highlight for the committee that the number of migrant women accessing domestic violence support services has increased dramatically in the past ten years. At any one time it is estimated that approximately 30% to 40% of women accessing refuge accommodation or seeking to access refuge accommodation or other outreach services in Ireland are migrant women. It has been clearly outlined by my colleagues, particularly from Safe Ireland and Women's Aid, that it can be very difficult for all women to access support services but there are particular difficulties for migrant women. I will focus specifically on those difficulties and, in particular, within the remit of this committee, on the issue of family reunification legislation, or absence of it. I will not focus so much on the habitual residence condition because colleagues have looked at that issue already but there is some information in the written submission provided to the committee.

I wish to highlight briefly that in contrast with most other jurisdictions, currently Irish immigration legislation does not provide any statutory right for family reunification for Irish citizens or legally resident foreign nationals except for refugees and the family members of EU citizens. That is specifically regulated by way of the freedom of movement or citizenship directive which we are obliged to follow and which was transposed into Irish law by way of statutory instruments in 2006 and 2008.

In addition to the absence of immigration legislation in regard to family reunification, there is no provision in Irish statute law for the granting of an automatic independent residence permit to a family member who may have been permitted to enter Ireland under administrative rules and discretionary arrangements. Irish statutory law or the administrative arrangements do not contain a domestic violence concession, as it is sometimes referred to in other jurisdictions, providing an entitlement to remain in the State if one is the victim of an abusive relationship.

I acknowledge - and it would be remiss of me not to do so - that the Minister for Justice and Equality in many cases responds humanely and exercises discretion to grant residence permits to women who are leaving abusive relationships, specifically migrant women. We remain concerned that it is not based on any specific right on the part of a migrant woman concerned and that it is only done on an individual case by case basis at the absolute discretion of the Minister or immigration officers, acting on his behalf and it is also done in the absence of any clear administrative guidelines.

Chairman

Sorry, I have to interrupt the meeting as a vote has been called in the House.

Sitting suspended at 11.05 a.m. and resumed at 11.30 a.m.

Chairman

We will resume and allow Ms Cosgrave complete her statement. I apologise for the delay but it is due to how the House is ordered and is out of our control.

Ms Catherine Cosgrave

I acknowledge that the Minister for Justice and Equality has responded humanely in many cases and has exercised discretion to grant independent residence permits to individuals escaping abusive relationships. The difficulty is that this is not based on any specific right or entitlement provided, either by way of legislation or by way of administrative policy. It is done case by case at the discretion of the Minister or an immigration officer acting on behalf of the Minister. It is also done in the absence of any clear administrative guidelines.

For example, there is no information published by the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service, INIS, explaining that it is possible for an individual to apply for an independent residence permit in the event of relationship breakdown as a result of domestic violence. Rather, what one finds on the INIS website is information to the contrary. It explicitly sets out, as noted in my written submission, that if a person is resident on the basis of marriage to an Irish national, there is no right of retention of residence in the event of separation or divorce. Similarly, the information in respect of those who may be in a de facto relationship with an Irish or other non-EEA national states explicitly that there is no right of retention of residence in the event of separation. This contrasts with what happens in practice case by case where representation may be made. As a result of the information currently published on the INIS website, it has come to our attention that in a number of cases women have been advised to apply for asylum, although that may not necessarily be relevant to their circumstances.

Consequently, it is extremely difficult for me as a legal practitioner to advise women as to their entitlement to apply for the permit or on how they will be treated in the process. Our experience case by case is that there has been a humane response. In the absence of a clearly stated remedy, however, whether that is on an administrative or legislative basis, women can be reluctant to take that step initially. Also, it may well be that they will only take that step after a period of time. For example, in one case, I engaged with a woman for approximately 12 months before she was in a position to take the step and apply.

I would like to highlight the fact that last year the HSE published guidelines for its social workers advising them that their first response should not be to advise a woman to leave the home because of the crisis that can emerge when a woman seeks to exit the abusive relationship. Migrant women, in particular, face an additional difficulty. In the absence of a clearly stated remedy regarding their residence status and in light of the difficulties that have been outlined by Women's Aid and Safe Ireland today in terms of access to refuge, it is particularly difficult to advise a migrant woman at what point she should make an application. It is my experience that even in cases where an application is looked on positively and in favour of a woman to grant a permit, the response in dealing with those applications can vary. For example, in one case, there was a very positive response within a period of 24 hours. However, the two cases I outlined in my written submission demonstrate that for one it took a period of four months to process the application and for the other it took a period in excess of two years. In that context, it is very difficult to advise a migrant woman on the response that will be made to their application or what proofs of domestic violence will be required. In particular, it is difficult to advise on whether it is a requirement for them to have left their home to seek an independent residence permit. It is particularly difficult to advise women that they need to leave their home. They may have a safety order or a barring order, but if they cannot be guaranteed access to a refuge or any form of short-term social support, it is a difficult situation.

As I mentioned at the outset, this is in stark contrast with the position in other jurisdictions. I will draw the committee's attention to the rules introduced in the United Kingdom in 1999 by way of a concession and then formally in 2002 by way of an immigration rule. There is specific provision within these immigration rules that a woman who has been granted residence in the United Kingdom on the basis of a family relationship is entitled to an independent residence permit on leaving that relationship as a result of abuse. The rules provide for specific proofs to be provided. Only one form of documentary evidence is required if there is a court order, but two proofs of documentary evidence are required in the absence of a court order. These can be testimony from a social worker, a refuge support, some other service provider or medical reports where the woman has been to a GP or admitted to hospital.

In addition to the specific examples within the immigration rules in the United Kingdom, it is internationally recognised that states should provide an entitlement to an independent or autonomous residence permit in these circumstances. I will give some examples. Although we are not a signatory to the recently adopted Council of Europe convention in May of this year, Article 13 paragraph 2 of that convention deals with the obligations of signatory states to the convention. We have domestic obligations to grant independent residence permits to victims in this instance but only in the case of third-country family members who are family of EU citizens. This does not extend, for example, to family members of Irish citizens. This is an anomaly of reverse discrimination which is found in the 2004 citizenship or free movement directive, as it is known. This right is internationally recognised within the member states of the European Union by way of the family reunification directive but Ireland does not participate in this directive. However, it is instructive that this right has been recognised at member state level as being the bare minimum and that there should be no loss of residence for a third-country family member who has been admitted to the State by way of family reunification as found in Article 15.3 of the 2003 directive.

A number of recommendations are contained in the written submission to the committee. I wish to highlight in particular that since the immigration residence and protection legislation was debated and introduced, the Immigrant Council of Ireland has been calling for almost ten years for a statutory provision for the granting of an independent or autonomous residency permit as this would bring the law in this jurisdiction into line with what is now the recognised international position. In our view, this could be done by way of comprehensive rules regarding family reunification. Members of the committee may be aware that the current draft 2010 Bill contains no provisions except for refugee family reunification. There is no provision for the introduction of family reunification for Irish nationals or third-country nationals living in Ireland and, similarly, there is no stand-alone provision to deal with this independent residence permit.

It has been suggested throughout the period of time that the legislation has been pending that family reunification may well be dealt with by way of secondary regulations introduced to complement the primary legislation but there has been no indication whether these regulations are being drafted or when they might be introduced. We would welcome the introduction of primary legislation and specifically the opportunity to address the very urgent needs of migrant women experiencing domestic violence. A number of what could be termed cut and paste provisions from international directives could be used in this instance.

Pending the introduction of the legislation the Immigrant Council of Ireland advises that this could be done very easily in the interim by way of administrative policies and procedures. In particular, I suggest an amendment to the information provided on the INIS website to advise that it is possible to apply for a remedy in this specific instance and to give some guidance as to what proofs or evidence would be required to progress an application. This is our primary recommendation and I will not go into detail on the other recommendations.

Chairman

I thank Ms Cosgrave. The Bill is due for publication before the end of the year and there will be at least 300 Government amendments to it.

Senator Ivana Bacik

I must leave for a vote in the Seanad.

Chairman

I apologise to Mr. Keaveney for the delay and I invite him to make his submission. We have dealt thus far with the issue of violence against women and Mr. Keaveney will give another perspective.

Mr. Declan Keaveney

AMEN is a voluntary organisation with charitable status founded in December 1997, ironically, by a woman, Mary Cleary. It provides a confidential helpline, a support service and information for male victims of domestic abuse. The problem with male victims of domestic abuse is that they do not talk; they keep quiet about the abuse. I am a victim of domestic abuse. AMEN assists men from all walks of life, all age groups and from every social class. We have contact with mothers, concerned sisters and other family members who will contact us about a man who is being abused but who is unable to contact us. AMEN provides information to the victims or other family members who call the helpline regarding the legal remedies available to them and we assist them in making decisions on the options open to them. Previous speakers have described the options available to victims of domestic violence.

In addition to the support service, AMEN also works to increase public awareness of the plight of the male victim of domestic abuse. An awareness campaign is being held from 3 to 13 October, to highlight the fact that men also suffer from domestic violence. The campaign is entitled, Men Are Hit As Well. The AMEN organisation also campaigns for greater recognition and support services for male victims from political and statutory bodies and for the inclusion of men and men's groups and men's experiences in the formulation of relevant social policy and legislation. While the main focus of our work is supporting abused men, we also deal with broader issues affecting men's lives, including discrimination against men in public policies and by State institutions.

For years we have only heard one side of the story as regards domestic violence. I am a retired Garda inspector and I have been the victim of domestic abuse but in my personal situation I came out the better end of it. I now have full custody of my three children. I retired in order to look after my children and this is the most rewarding work I could ever do. It is very important for a parent to be there for their children. In my case, false allegations were made against me. These were investigated by everyone involved in the case. I was the person suffering-----

Chairman

I must ask Mr. Keaveney to keep his comments on a more general level.

Mr. Declan Keaveney

We have been told by male victims that they may have endured abuse for years because they want to stay with their children. Men are aware that if they separate from their partners or wives, it is possible they will lose their home and will no longer be in a position to care for or protect their children.

For those of us working to raise awareness of these issues it is gratifying to know that it is now almost universally accepted that men and women are equally likely to be victims and perpetrators of domestic abuse. I refer to recent and comprehensive research carried out in 2005 but many organisations and individuals have chosen to ignore it. The research found the following: 29% of women and 26% of men suffer domestic abuse; 13% of women and 13% of men suffer physical abuse; and 29% of women and only 5% of men report abuse to the Garda Síochána. This statistic shows the small number of both men and women who report domestic abuse. It means Amen is dealing with a very small proportion of victims. The Amen report for last year noted 4,500 contacts for the service. We provide a daytime service. Our office staff consist of four female members who answer telephone calls and give advice to the men who call the office. However, we missed almost 2,000 calls last year because there was no service available out of hours.

This committee is responsible for justice and equality issues and these issues when they relate to men need to be dealt with by the committee. The findings of the Amen report need to be examined. We ask the committee to help put an end to this discrimination against male victims of domestic abuse. We ask the committee to respond to the report's findings and to publically reject the myth that domestic abuse is solely about violent men abusing women. Other speakers have referred to programmes for perpetrators of domestic violence but there is no such programme for women. This speaks for itself and the fact that society believes that men are perpetrators of the violence and that women are the victims. However, I can tell the committee honestly from all the calls we get that men are victims too. Men are victims as well as perpetrators.

We want the committee to state publicly that domestic abuse is a social and family issue and not just a gender issue. We want to ensure that a substantial and immediate increase in funding for services for male victims is one of the Government's top priorities given that 99% of funding goes to women's organisations, with 1% going to those supporting men. That does not tie in with the findings of the 2005 National Crime Council statistics. We want the committee to consider abolishing all gender exclusive structures dealing with domestic violence and replacing them with gender inclusive structures. All the current structures are exclusive for women and we want male victims to be included on all the various steering groups and committees on violence against women. It is not asking too much that we be included as representatives on all those committees. When policies and various decisions are made we would like to be at the table and have a say in that.

An important submission we would make is that there is not one emergency accommodation refuge available for men in this country. I can say that without a shadow of a doubt, and unfortunately we are no different from any other country in that regard. They are all the same. Many men ring the helpline looking for emergency accommodation but unfortunately we cannot offer it.

We would like to ensure that all the State agencies refer to domestic abuse in a gender neutral way, in other words, acknowledge that it is not solely perpetrated by men. I have studied carefully many of the policies on domestic abuse, for example, those by the Health Service Executive, the Garda Síochána and various groups and despite having gone to the Equality Authority on the issue the term is still being used that men are the perpetrators and women are the victims. I stress to the committee that, unfortunately, men are victims too and we would like the members to take that into account.

I sincerely thank the committee for the opportunity to attend today because it is important that men who are victims of domestic abuse have a voice.

Chairman

I thank all the representatives for their presentations. This is a very serious issue, despite the fact that members have been coming to and going from the meeting. The demands on members are enormous as a result of other committee meetings, delegations, and the two Houses sitting at the same time. I spoke to members before this meeting and during it and they take this issue very seriously as far as everyone is concerned. Violence is violence, and it must be harrowing for people to go through what the representatives described earlier. Does Deputy O'Brien wish to comment?

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

There may be an opportunity on Committee Stage of the Immigration Bill to address some of the issues but more comprehensive legislation on domestic violence may be required. I am aware that the Minister has highlighted that this is an issue he will examine, and it is hoped we can make some movement on it.

It is interesting that a number of issues ran through all the presentations, which were helpful and informative, but I hope that the debate does not end here but remains on the agenda because I am aware from speaking to other members of the committee that it is a problem all members are determined to try to tackle during this Dáil term and make some progress on.

Chairman

I asked a question earlier on the issue of prevention. I am aware that we must deal with perpetrators who commit crime and that there is a great deal of co-ordination to be done but it was interesting to hear one of the contributors state that we are not out of line with other countries regarding domestic violence. Most countries appear to be at the same level in that regard but if the representatives have any suggestions as to the reason this is happening we would be grateful to receive them. There was an interesting talk this morning about the need for a cultural shift in our attitude to violence generally. It is important also to bear that in mind. Do the representatives wish to make closing remarks?

Ms Catherine Cosgrave

I thank the committee for the opportunity to attend.

Ms Gráinne O’Toole

We would appreciate a follow-up from the committee on the Minister's position in examining the issue of forced labour. Is he considering including it in the human trafficking legislation or in new legislation? We would welcome an answer to that question because it would inform us of the position in that regard. We are in a hiatus in that we do not know how the issue of forced labour is being progressed.

Chairman

We will certainly follow that up with the Minister. Today's presentations will form a report which will go to the Minister and the Department and we will ask them for a response on it.

Ms Gráinne O’Toole

Thank you, Chairman.

Chairman

I thank everybody who attended today for their contributions. The committee recognises the extremely important work carried out by all the organisations.

JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, DEFENCE AND EQUALITY debate - Wednesday, 5 Oct 2011

Domestic Violence and Forced Labour: Discussion.

Ms Monica Mazzone

Ms Salome Mbugua

Ms Caitríona Gleeson

Ms Monica Mazzone

Ms Salome Mbugua

Ms Caitriona Gleeson

Ms Caitriona Gleeson

Ms Caitriona Gleeson

Ms Caitriona Gleeson

Ms Caitriona Gleeson

Ms Caitriona Gleeson

Ms Caitriona Gleeson

Ms Caitriona Gleeson

Ms Monica Mazzone

Ms Caitriona Gleeson

Ms Monica Mazzone

Ms Monica Mazzone

Ms Caitriona Gleeson

Ms Caitriona Gleeson

Ms Caitriona Gleeson

Ms Grainne O’Toole

Ms Mariaam Bhatti

Ms Gráinne O’Toole

Ms Mariaam Bhatti

Ms Catherine Cosgrave

Ms Catherine Cosgrave

Mr. Declan Keaveney

Mr. Declan Keaveney

Ms Catherine Cosgrave

Ms Gráinne O’Toole

Ms Gráinne O’Toole

JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, DEFENCE AND EQUALITY debate -
Wednesday, 5 Oct 2011