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JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, DEFENCE AND EQUALITY (Sub-Committee on Penal Reform) debate -
Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011

Penal Reform: Discussion

The purpose of today's meeting is to have discussions with organisations who have made written submissions to the sub-committee on the subject of penal reform. I thank all delegates for their attendance today, for their written submissions and for giving of their valuable time to help the sub-committee in its work. This is the beginning of work on penal reform and we are interested in listening to the views of the organisations. Some organisations were unable to make a written submission within the timeframe but further submissions on this topic will be forwarded to members.

I will invite each organisation to make some brief opening remarks and this will be followed by a question and answer session. The format is that one member of the sub-committee will engage with each group as a lead questioner as this has been found to be efficient. It will be a question and answer session and questions will not be banked together.

I welcome the following: Mr. John Clinton, general secretary of the Prison Officers Association and Mr. Jim Mitchell, assistant deputy general secretary; Ms Lisa Cuthbert from PACE; Mr. Liam Herrick, executive director of the Irish Penal Reform Trust; and Mr. Dermot Kelly, chairman and Ms Linda Lyons, legal director of the Etruscan Life Training and Education Centre.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give this committee. If a witness is directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and the witness continues to so do, the witness is entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of his or her evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and witnesses are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Ms Lisa Cuthbert

I thank the sub-committee for the invitation to submit a written submission and to make a presentation to today's meeting. PACE is a voluntary and community-based organisation established in 1969 to meet the accommodation needs of those leaving prison. The organisation focuses on providing a residential service and training, education and support programmes. We have a holistic approach to our work.

The aims of PACE are to cover the transition between prison and the community. Prisoners who have served long sentences are very vulnerable when they leave prison. They come out to a society which has changed quite dramatically.

PACE works in partnership with the Probation and Welfare Service which is the primary source of referrals into our projects and referrals come from every prison in the country as well as from probation officers in the community. We work with people who have had long-term sentences and also people who have had short-term sentences.

PACE currently has 40 training places, 17 of which are operated on a day-release basis from the training unit. This is part of a preparation for release programme which is aimed initially at people coming from long-term sentences and life sentences. We also provide accommodation in various levels, at low, medium and high support and we currently provide 29 places. The residential programmes include a pre-release programme for people coming from prison. The preparation for release from a long-term sentence and from a life sentence happens over a period of years. PACE is very keen to continue this work programme of preparation for release from prison.

We talk to our clients to ascertain their needs and issues. We asked what issues they would like us to raise with the committee on their behalf.

The first issue concerns the accommodation conditions in prisons. There are serious issues concerning accommodation in Mountjoy Prison. These have an impact on making the environment stressful, creating tension and opportunities for outbreaks of violence in an unsafe living environment. This was a primary issue our clients wished to have raised.

Another issue, which is more relevant to those serving long-term sentences, including life sentences, is the requirement for an assessment of needs upon committal. We have found that, over the years, people get lost within the prison system, particularly if they are going in for a long time, that is, anything from four to 17 or 18 years. These people find it difficult to be motivated to engage with prison services, including education and training, particularly when the environment is overcrowded. They were keen to emphasise the desirability that, upon committal, an assessment should take place of all needs, including psychological, psychiatric, addiction support, family support, education and training, as well as everything offence related in terms of the type of offence. All of those needs should be assessed and addressed and some type of plan devised.

We are aware that some of that is contained within the integrated sentence management system, but it must be done in a more systematic way. From our perspective as a community-based organisation, the better use that is made of a person's time in prison, the more he or she will get out of it. If prisoners are supported to manage their addiction and receive other types of support they were unable to access in the community, they can emerge much more stable than before they entered prison. A challenge for us is that many of the people we help in keeping themselves clean, sober and addiction-free while in prison have never managed to achieve that in the community. Seeking to maintain that in the community can be a significant challenge for people upon their release.

The main issues of concern for us, and for the people we work with, are physical conditions, overcrowding, the need for assessment and proper sentence management, and the need for a clear plan at the point of release. Of particular concern to the people we meet is that there are increasingly fewer services available to them in the community when they are released, with ever longer waiting lists to access those services. We currently have 45 people waiting to access training places. When we are unable to free up a day release place, somebody must remain in prison for longer.

We work with an average of 200 people per year, including people serving long-term and life-term sentences. In fact, PACE works with the largest number of life-sentence prisoners within communities. We find that it is the people who have served a series of short-term sentences who are most likely to be chaotic. Our experience suggests that short-term sentences do not work in that they seldom meet their purpose of preventing re-offending. Moreover, they do not provide a structure within which the prison experience can be used positively, because prisoners are not there long enough to engage with services, receive a proper assessment of their needs or participate in an integrated sentence management system. These people are emerging from prison more criminalised than before and with less incentive not to re-offend and in terms of managing their lifestyle. What we see on a day-to-day basis is that prison becomes part of the normal life path for many short-term prisoners. In the context of penal reform, there must be an assessment of the issues that arise in respect of people sentenced to short terms. We would argue that such sentences do more harm than good. Within our services, we find we are always balancing the needs of those coming out of prison after long-term sentences with the different needs of those who have been imprisoned for shorter periods over a long period of time and who are continually chaotic. Trying to manage that chaos and the associated problems of addiction and mental health issues is a major challenge.

Temporary release has the potential to be used as an important incentive to encourage people to engage with prison services in a more constructive way. It can encourage people to feel they are making a positive contribution to their own release and can take back some control over their future. For many of the people with whom we work - particularly life-sentence prisoners, where the sentence is indeterminate - there is no sense of autonomy or control as to how they can earn release. We must look at temporary release in a refreshed and renewed way. If employed effectively, it gives people an opportunity to take back some autonomy by providing a way for them to contribute to their own positive sentence management and, ultimately, a positive outcome for their release into the community.

When people come to us we seek to manage their release in a phased way. In terms of accommodation, for example, it could build from as little as one night per month over a yearly period. For training purposes, they are released over a five-day week. This allows them to earn their release, so to speak, and build a sense of autonomy. There is a structure within which that can happen. For some of them it works very well but, from our perspective, there can sometimes be a lack of information as to how people can contribute more positively, how long the process of release will take and how they can be encouraged to engage and reclaim their autonomy.

PACE views its role within the context that everybody who goes into prison comes out, no matter how long their sentence. We had somebody recently who was released after serving more than 40 years. It is much more difficult for somebody who has been in prison for that long to begin to adjust. Unfortunately, that particular individual is now back inside because of health issues. He wanted to die a free man but it was considered that the health care he would receive in prison was better than placing him in a nursing home in the community where nobody knows him. The principle that everybody who goes in comes out is the basis on which the Irish justice system works. Therefore, we must ensure we are using the prison experience as positively and constructively as possible.

I thank Ms Cuthbert for her excellent presentation. I apologise that we are somewhat tight on time. I propose that the delegates make their presentations before we proceed to questions and answers. That will give us a fuller picture of where they are coming from. I invite Mr. Liam Herrick to make his statement.

Mr. Liam Herrick

The Irish Penal Reform Trust, IPRT, greatly welcomes the establishment of the Sub-committee on Penal Reform. We wish members well in their work and look forward to being of assistance to them. The Irish Penal Reform Trust is a non-governmental organisation campaigning for the rights of persons in prison and in the penal system more generally and also advocating that prison should be a sanction of last resort. We are committed to reducing imprisonment and to the progressive reform of the penal system. The creation of a safer society and safer communities must be the core goal of any criminal justice system. The current system is not capable of achieving that goal to the extent that it should because of problems within the system. In particular, its potential is restricted because of overcrowding, the poor physical conditions referred to by my colleague, Ms Cuthbert, lack of access to workshops, education and training, and the incidence of violence and drug use in prisons. All of these problems are well known.

One of the key impediments to progress within the system is the extreme level of overcrowding in prisons as a consequence of the increase in the prison population in recent years. In this context, the IPRT strongly supports the Minister's proposals for the early release of suitable prisoners. We also welcome the equally, if not more important, shift in policy away from large-scale prison building to concentrating on improving existing prison conditions. The causes of overcrowding were identified by the Thornton Hall review group as being systemic in nature. We do not have a clear articulation of what the various elements of the criminal justice system, including the Garda, courts, probation and welfare service, prisons and so on, are meant to do and how they should relate to each other. The current system disproportionately punishes the disadvantaged and produces high rates of recidivism. It is not delivering good value for society, is damaging individuals within the system and is not reducing the number of victims of crime or making society safer.

If we are serious about penal reform we must review the fundamentals of the system of punishment in Ireland. The White Paper on crime and the Minister's proposed strategic review group on penal policy are steps in the right direction. We have clearly articulated our vision of how the system should be reformed in the various position papers we have published, particularly our Position Paper on Penal Policy with Imprisonment as a Last Resort. There is more to this than merely diverting people from the prison system through the imposition of fines and community service. At every stage in the system we must ask ourselves whether we need to detain people in expensive prisons or whether they could be punished and supervised more effectively in the community.

A particularly notable problem of the current chaotic system is the overuse and inappropriate use of temporary release. It has come to function as a safety valve in the system, which is not its original purpose. Likewise, the current system of remission is a blunt instrument and does not serve as useful a function as it could. The Parole Board remains subject to political control, which brings us into conflict with international human rights law and creates great uncertainty and potential injustice for prisoners and for the community.

We have identified these specific mechanisms around the release of prisoners as ripe for reform. Reform in this area is the most effective and immediate way of bringing the prison population down to a level that is within the capacity of the existing prison system. Ireland is far out of line with most other common law and European countries in having a very restrictive system of temporary release and parole. We will be setting out the proposals contained in our submission in more detail. As the sub-committee will accept, with the time constraints involved, we have only sketched a broad outline for this meeting. We hope we can set down the parameters for how the sub-committee might examine a process of reform in each of these specific areas.

The first relates to the current law on remission and temporary release. Remission is a blunt instrument and there is potential for it to contribute to a more incentivised system. A distinction can usefully be drawn in respect of less serious offenders who could benefit from remission automatically at a certain point in their sentences. This happens at the three quarter point, but we see no reason this should not be brought into line with the position in most other jurisdictions where remission can be offered half or two thirds of the way through a sentence. For more serious offenders, again, eligibility for parole or temporary release should kick in at a fixed proportion point of the sentence, at which point there should be independent adjudication of eligibility. For example, it is the case in England and Wales that the position of serious offenders can be reviewed at the halfway point in their sentences. We are suggesting it would be reasonable to initiate reviews when prisoners reach a point two thirds of the way through their sentences. However, this is a matter for the Legislature to deal with down the line.

The important principle is that we can distinguish between an automatic entitlement to remission for less serious offenders and, perhaps, a reviewable, discretionary system for more serious offenders. In respect of both categories, however, there should be a more generous provision for remission for those who can demonstrate that they are engaging constructively with rehabilitation services. This is the key to creating an incentivised prison system under which prisoners work towards a final goal of being released. Such a system could very easily be tailored to the existing sentence management programme. It could also be tailored with specific emphasis on particular areas such as, for example, addiction or literacy which are, perhaps, most closely connected with future reoffending. Exceptions to such a system could also easily be made if there were particular categories of offenders, the members of which needed to be treated differently. I refer, for example, to sensitive categories such as sex offenders. There are clear examples - provided by our nearest neighbours and other jurisdictions - as to how such a system might be advanced by building on the existing system. At the same time, the use of temporary release on compassionate grounds, an essential feature of the current system, should be retained.

In the context of how decisions are made, the current system involving the parole board is subject to political control. I do not intend any criticism of the parole board which carries out its functions to an excellent level. Ultimately, however, decisions are taken by the Minister which creates great uncertainty and arbitrariness for individuals who appear before the board. In addition, it also brings us, potentially, into conflict with the European Convention on Human Rights, particularly in respect of prisoners serving life sentences. The Government has indicated that it is committed to parole reform, which we welcome. A number of essential targets must be achieved in any such reform process. The parole board must be fully independent, placed on a statutory footing and allowed to make binding recommendations with regard to prisoner releases. This would remove the release of prisoners as a decision-making function from the Minister for Justice and Equality, which is the key objective we must achieve.

The legislation underpinning the workings of the parole board should set out the functions thereof and the criteria to be used in making decisions. In our submission we suggest consideration should be given to a number of issues, including whether oral hearings should take place, who prepares the information on which the parole board makes its decisions, how its members are appointed and what is their term and security of office and how the board is to be funded. Individuals who appear before the board should have access to legal representation. There is a growing body of law at Strasbourg level which indicates that, essentially, this is a quasi-judicial process and that individuals should be represented by lawyers, where necessary.

Questions on prisoner releases and how decisions are taken form only one part of the picture. Ms Cuthbert has addressed issues relating to what happens in prison. There are many deficiencies in the prison system which would not be capable of delivering the incentives necessary within an incentivised system of parole. The integrated sentences management programme is good, in principle, but it is largely an exercise in paper, as opposed to being fully supported through the provision of the necessary resources and programmes within the prison system. Particular emphasis must be placed on drug and addiction treatment and literacy programmes. The encouraging aspect is that in recent years many jurisdictions have by reducing prisoner numbers and their level of investment in security been able to divert money towards treating individuals within prison. This has had great social benefits in terms of reduced levels of reoffending. Countries and jurisdictions as diverse as Texas have been able to make progress in this area.

Another part of the picture is what happens in the community once people are released. The community service scheme and the community release scheme initiated by the Minister represent a step in the right direction. Again, however, support must be provided for the probation service and the agencies it funds in order to support people beyond release. At a general level, this is an extremely underdeveloped aspect and there is much we could learn from other jurisdictions.

This is an area which is ripe for reform. There is a clear direction from other jurisdictions on how we might construct a system which would be superior to that which obtains. It is also an area in which we are likely to see immediate benefits in terms of reducing the prison population. More generally and in the longer term, the sub-committee can lay the groundwork for many more systemic improvements. I do not refer merely to how the system of parole operates but also as a contributory factor to an incentivised system of punishment, under which prisoners would work towards a specific end in a measurable way and we would move towards more liberal regimes throughout the prison system and, ultimately, temporary release for prisoners at an earlier point than might have been the case in the context of sentences handed down.

We wish the sub-committee well in its work which is very important. However, there is one slight proviso which we would highlight. We have laid down general parameters and indicated time limits. Of course, these are matters which require to be examined in much more detail. We will be publishing a much more detailed position paper on this matter and submitting it to the sub-committee shortly.

I thank Mr. Herrick. As stated, this is just the beginning. We hope to be able to engage with the various interested organisations and individuals over a period in order that we might bring forward some strong proposals to the Department and the Minister in this matter. I invite Mr. Clinton to make his contribution.

Mr. John Clinton

We thank the Sub-Committee on Penal Reform for giving us the opportunity to make a verbal presentation as a follow-up to our written submission of 16 November. Prison officers have interacted with prisoners for decades and have got to know thousands of them very well. Fundamentally, we want a prison system which rehabilitates prisoners and assists them in dealing with the past and engaging in responsible citizenship into the future in an environment that is safe for both prison officers and prisoners alike. Despite the ongoing negative view of the prisons on the part of some, this rehabilitation does happen but, regrettably, not often enough. The onset of the gang culture in the prisons has certainly not been helpful in this regard.

The mission statement of the Irish Prison Service is to:

... provide safe, secure and humane custody for people who are sent to prison. This service is committed to manage custodial sentences in a way which encourages and supports prisoners in their endeavouring to live law abiding and purposeful lives as valued members of society.

It seems all of us involved with and concerned about the prison population want to get to the same place. If that is so, why is this not happening? There are many reasons sufficient progress is not being made. They relate to resources, a lack of motivation on the part of the authorities, a lack of interest on the part of wider society, etc. As the major staff representative body within the prison system, we are a major stakeholder in the system and want a progressive Irish Prison Service to be built, of which we can all be proud in the future. The service must address many of the challenges and difficulties we face. To put in place such a service, many of the following matters must be addressed.

The first issue to which I wish to refer is humane treatment. It is mostly poor people from deprived areas of society who end up in prison. The vast majority of these individuals are subject to all of the negative consequences of social exclusion such as high levels of mental illness, drug addiction, poor educational attainment, high unemployment and inadequate social skills. Unfortunately, the end result is that most young people who go to prison are likely to spend most of their 20s and 30s in and out of the system. We must recognise this background and lack of support and adopt a correct, fair and planned approach to treat this person with dignity and find the mechanism which can give him or her a second chance.

The issue of prison overcrowding must be addressed, as it leads to competition for limited resources and aggression between inmates and against staff. It can contribute to higher rates of illness - even suicide - and severely impedes the process of offender rehabilitation. Today, for example, in nearly 90% of the modern Wheatfield Prison which was designed to cater for 320 inmates there is doubling up. Current levels of overcrowding are simply not sustainable and dangerous.

There is a serious problem of drug misuse within the prisons. Despite the introduction in recent years of enhanced security measures such as the use of drug detection dogs and airport-type security systems for searching people entering prisons, many drug users continue to use drugs while in prison. Having completely drug free prisons is very difficult to achieve; however, this must always be our objective because if it is not, we are admitting failure.

What the Prison Officers Association believes should happen is that there should be an acceptance that prisons are a market for drugs and, therefore, the issue must be tackled as drug use would in any community. Those involved in the drugs trade, most of whom are extremely violent, must be tackled and isolated. There must also be medical interventions available for those who want to get off drugs.

Unfortunately, the level of violence, whether it be prisoner against prisoner or prisoner against staff, has continued to grow at an alarming rate and hardly a week passes without stabbings, assaults or worse taking place. This is, clearly, a feature of overcrowding.

Unfortunately, people with mental health problems, ranging from mild to severe, continue to end up in prison having committed various criminal offences. However, the underlying cause cannot be adequately addressed in a prison environment. The Minister for Justice and Equality has acknowledged that imprisonment can aggravate mental health problems, heighten vulnerability and increase the risk of self-harm and even suicide.

Proper sentence management is a critical issue which is not receiving the attention it warrants and deserves. If we can introduce an incentivised regime for prisoners, we can make real progress, as has been the experience in the United Kingdom. Prisoners must be given the opportunity to take responsibility for their actions and in so doing gain the benefits of a less intense system. The Prison Officers Association is very much in favour of the introduction of enhanced incentivised regimes for prisoners which we see operating in Magilligan Prison in Northern Ireland and Manchester Prison in England. We see the introduction of the basic, standard and enhanced regimes as a very good way of moving the Irish Prison Service forward.

It is clear to the Prison Officers Association that our current resources could be used much more effectively. The entire prison estate should be analysed to find areas within our closed prisons in which semi-open facilities could be introduced. It is simply unacceptable that in the 21st century we have prisoners sleeping on mattresses in corridors.

We support having an effective independent complaints process.While the Prisons Officers Association believes correct procedures should be in place to deal with such matters, such procedures must have sufficient and adequate safeguards to ensure the protection of prison staff where complaints are vexatious in nature, as has been proved in some cases.

We cannot have effective back-door strategies without also having progressive front-door strategies. Issues such as temporary release and electronic tagging must be fully integrated into enhanced incentivised regime programmes.

I again thank the sub-committee for giving us the opportunity to make this presentation. We will deal with any questions members may have.

I thank Mr. Clinton for what was a very interesting presentation. I invite Mr. Kelly from the Etruscan Life Training & Education Centre to make his presentation.

Mr. Dermot Kelly

I thank the Chairman for allowing us to make this presentation and a submission on 16 November. Clearly, in the space of five minutes I cannot cover all of the points we raised in the submission. While it may not be exactly in line with protocol, perhaps I might take the submission as read and broadly accepted to enable me to talk about other matters.

I am the chairman of the Etruscan Life Training & Education Centre and accompanied by my colleague, Ms Linda Lyons, our legal director. A third person, Dr. Margaret O'Rourke, a chartered forensic and clinical psychologist from University College Cork, was due to be present, but, unfortunately, she cannot be here, as she has to make a presentation in Harvard today. She has written to the committee and I would like to use her letter as part of our submission because it endorses what we are trying to do.

The Etruscan Life Training & Education Centre is a social enterprise which specialises in the provision of life training and psychological education. The organisation provides programmes for people who present with anger-related aggression, behavioural and drink-drug driving issues. We focus on early intervention and, critically, pre-prison and pre-sentencing training. Our aim is to show a reduction in anti-social behaviour, coupled with reduced imprisonment and cost savings for the justice system and the taxpayer.

The service is provided by a multidisciplinary team of professionals with experience in different backgrounds, ranging from consulting, forensic clinical psychology, corporate finance, law and accounting to commercial practice. Our intervention teams consist of psychology associates, all of whom are supervised by consultant forensic clinical psychologists, principally Dr. Margaret O'Rourke, a consultant forensic psychologist at the UCC school of medicine, whom I mentioned, and Dr. Sean Hammond, a consultant forensic psychologist at the faculty of psychology in University College Cork. His role will be to work on the assessment and measurement of the progress we make. It is important that we make these measurements and that they are published every year in order that our performance can be measured. We only use evidence-based assessments, measurements and interventions. We use risk-need and responsivity with RAMAS protocols, assessment and treatment of emotions using the RAMAS anger management assessment profile, and assessment of personality strengths, problems and assets. Our programmes are designed to change over time as research findings feed revisions, making them specific to Irish society needs, which we believe is critical.

Our interventions, used correctly, can bring together the experiences of probation officers, offenders, gardaí, social workers, victims, academics and third parties and can enjoy huge success in Ireland. Similar programmes have been operated worldwide but, in particular, in Australia, the United States and the United Kingdom. We can place the focus on rehabilitation from the outset and this can be delivered with savings for the justice and health Departments, with a social bonus by way of treating perpetrators in the community, thereby helping family values and family units to progress.

As I said, Dr. O'Rourke cannot be present today, but she has written to the committee to make the following points. In the past 20 years she has set up four community forensic psychology services, three in the National Health Service in the United Kingdom, in Glasgow, Chichester and Guildford, and one independent practice in Ireland, all aimed at providing for early identification and the diversion of offenders from custody. She is very impressed by the efforts of the Etruscan Life Training & Education Centre to address this need in Ireland and happy to be associated with our ambitions to develop robust services in this important domain.

Dr. O'Rourke's background is as a practising forensic clinical psychologist, author, academic and graduate of the universities of Cork, Glasgow and Surrey. Together with colleagues in the United Kingdom and Canada, she has become a leading authority on risk and safety in offender and mental health services. In that respect, I referred to RAMAS, about which members can read on its website. Much of the RAMAS clinical practice and research is focused on public safety and the quality of offender assessment, treatment and care. The role and impact of emotions, cognition and behaviours on health, safety, well-being, offending and reoffending cannot be underestimated. To this end, she has authored ten self-help workbooks on subjects relating to emotional health and well-being and a number of these programmes are specifically targeted at offender rehabilitation with reference to violence, including domestic violence, drugs and so forth.

Through the Etruscan Life Training & Education Centre, efforts will be dedicated to providing only evidenced-based assessments and for interventions to allow public confidence in the provision of non-custodial alternatives. Her clear understanding of us is that practitioners and professionals working with Etruscan will use only evidence-based risk assessment, management and audit systems, and only evidence-based assessments and interventions with offender clients. It is also understood that all practitioners will be registered with a professional body and that they will have professional supervision on a regular basis.

The summary of our aims and values would be: to provide a cost benefit to the justice system; to improve equality of life in society; improve the behaviour and lifestyle of offenders and their families; to reduce the level of re-offence in less serious crimes and to help free up court time for more serious offences; to help reduce prisoner numbers and make prisons safer places; to compile and publish research data with an evidence base; and to provide professional job creation and training positions.

We provided an amount of data with our submission in terms of what could be possible and the amount of time and cost involved. Our proposal is that life skills training would be included in sentencing policy and options for the Judiciary and would be introduced at the cautionary stage where perpetrators are given cautions from superintendents. We also propose that our models can be used for training key workers, namely, teachers, social workers, probation officers and gardaí, so as to recognise the issues behind anger, aggression and stress and to direct individuals towards training before they become a prison statistic.

I thank Mr. Dermot Kelly for his interesting presentation. There seem to be a number of themes running through all the presentations this morning. I invite Senator Bacik to lead with questions which she will direct to Ms Cuthbert from PACE and Mr. Herrick from the Irish Penal Reform Trust.

I apologise because I have to speak in the Seanad at 10.30 a.m. and may have to leave the meeting abruptly.

I thank all witnesses for their hugely important contributions, both written submissions and this morning's presentations. They are extremely helpful to us in our work on the sub-committee. As rapporteur to the sub-committee I will work with the other members to put together a series of practical recommendations to the Minister on how we can implement what we call the back door strategies to offer alternatives to imprisonment, ease overcrowding and provide for a more positive system of penal justice. I will direct my questions to Ms Cuthbert and Mr. Herrick. I thank them very much for their presentations.

First, on the excellent PACE presentation, I am very familiar with the great work PACE does on service provision. I wish to focus on how one achieves a form of structured release that is rehabilitative in effect and tries to prevent recidivism. The point has been made about the need to tie in integrated sentence management with temporary release in a more formal way. How does she believe that could be done? Does it require legislation or could we do it without legislation? It is clear that integrated sentence management will need to be rolled out. The Prison Officers Association has also pointed that out. We must examine that in more detail. I have two other points to make.

Perhaps we will get replies to the questions already asked. I ask Ms Cuthbert to be as brief as she can be.

Ms Lisa Cuthbert

Incentivised early release does not need legislation, in particular for people who have been in prison for a long-term sentence anyway. It needs to be done as part of the structuring of the sentence. That is something that can be done in-house within the prison system as part of integrated sentence management.

Assessment at committal point is essential in terms of planning how the time is used while a prisoner is serving a sentence and introducing the concept of earned release and other incentives based around using the time in prison well. We have worked with people who have done well within the community but then due to outstanding charges they ended up in prison for a long period, up to four years. They came back to us in a much more damaged way than when they first went to prison because they had lost hope. They felt there was no point in engaging with school or engaging positively in dealing with an addiction because they were in prison and they had lost hope. Incentivised release does not require legislation.

That is very helpful. The final question is about resources. In our terms of reference we have referred to a supervised period within the community as release under community supervision. Mr. Herrick mentioned the linkage project. Pilot work is ongoing in that regard. That goes on with temporary release also. What are the resource implications? Reference was made to the hugely important work done by voluntary agencies. Obviously the probation service is the lead agency which is a statutory rather than voluntary one. How does one achieve a more structured system of supervised release?

Ms Lisa Cuthbert

That needs a legislative framework in terms of having the supervised release as part of the sentencing package and therefore when people are coming out of prison the benefit of the supervision within the community is huge because, again, it provides a structure and an incentive within which people can work but it does require resources from the probation service in order to supervise people within the community. What we find is that when people are with us first it encourages engagement and it means they are much more likely to sustain programmes and be motivated to participate in training and education and to avail of accommodation services than they would be if they were just fully released without supervision.

We ask people who come to us who are assessed as high risk, who have completed their full sentences without any temporary release component, to engage voluntarily with the probation service as part of a supervision package and it brings in extra support and resources. From our perspective as a community service provider it would be better if the sentencing allowed for supervised release within the community because we know the transition between prison and the community is a vulnerable time both in terms of relapse into addiction and in terms of re-offending, in particular for those who have been in prison for a long time who go in at 18 or 19 and come out in their late 30s. They do not have anything to come out to. In those cases supervised release is essential for us if it is to be a successful release. Even for a six month period it makes a huge difference to people because it gets them through that immediate transition.

I thank Ms Cuthbert. Senator Bacik wanted to ask Mr. Herrick a question.

Yes, I just wanted to ask him a couple of questions. Again, I thank him for a helpful and comprehensive submission. In particular I thank him for setting out the Irish Penal Reform Trust's recommendations for legislative reform, which will be useful in guiding the committee, and also in setting out the detailed comparative models on what is working elsewhere and back door strategies. He is correct in saying that the fact that we are not considering an immediate development of Thornton Hall can be seen as positive. Instead, we are considering conditions in existing prisons and non-custodial strategies.

I wish to focus on remission, which Mr. Herrick talked about and which he pointed out is different in England and Wales. Currently, we operate a system of remission after two thirds of sentence. Mr. Herrick suggests a change to that so that there would be a more or less automatic entitlement at the two thirds point of the sentence for most offenders - the less serious offenders - but for more serious offenders to become eligible for parole or remission at the two thirds point. The system in England and Wales has been changed so that it is now at the half-way stage. Does Mr. Herrick believe we should be moving toward such a system? He referred to a third step of enhanced remission of up to one half of sentence, which would be the incentivised release. How does one build that? Would it be through legislation?

Mr. Liam Herrick

That would be through legislation, as remission is currently set out in legislation. What we have at present is automatic remission at the three quarter point in the sentence. The 2007 Act provides for remission at the two thirds stage if people are constructively engaged with the services. As far as we are aware only one prisoner has benefited from that in the past four years which indicates that there is no structure in place for the Prison Service or the Department of Justice and Equality to measure whether people are constructively engaging.

To move from three quarters to two thirds is a modest recommendation. The committee might well choose to go further than that. Beyond that there should again be an even higher rate for an incentivised system. One could very well structure that around the existing model or one could structure it around particular types of service in prison that are seen as particularly important, for example, addiction treatment or literacy, which are likely to have the highest dividend in terms of future re-offending risk. It is basically a very modest proposal within the existing framework under the traditional remission model and the 2007 incentivised model to extend those parameters. The reason we suggest moving from three quarters to two thirds is that most jurisdictions we looked at either had remission at a half or two thirds of sentence. We did not come across any system that was at the higher level of three quarters. We have a very restrictive regime which could easily be changed. It is a minor change.

That is helpful and clarifies the matter. I look forward to Mr. Herrick's more detailed submission.

Mr. Herrick keeps mentioning structure. Could he detail more how that is working? What needs to be done in that regard?

Mr. Liam Herrick

The difficulty arises under the 2007 Act where the Legislature has said that prisoners who the Minister believes are constructively engaging with treatment in prison should get a better remission rate. There is currently no system for measuring that. We want an objective and independent system of measuring that. The integrated sentence management process could give benchmarks where people are given targets, that is, they deal with their addiction by engaging with the service in Merchant's Quay or other service providers to prove they are free of drugs or alcohol for a period of time or, similarly, are achieving literacy goals or engaging with training or education models. The prisoners would have targets to work towards. That goes to the wider question Mr. Clinton raised about an incentivised prison system where prisoners are working towards specific goals.

It is the same message. Deputy O'Brien wishes to engage with Mr. Clinton.

I thank the representatives for the written submission and their contributions. We all share the goals outlined in the presentation in the sense that we all want a system that is humane, rehabilitates the individual and prepares him or her for life after prison. Mr. Clinton outlined some of the barriers to that happening, one of which was the problem of prison overcrowding. There is no doubt that is a huge problem and it contributes negatively to the way prisoners are dealt with. This may be an unfair question but I will ask it anyway. Regarding prison overcrowding in the open prisons, some of the figures we received this week from the Minister indicate that there is a 270 bed capacity in the two centres yet only 207 of those are in use. Therefore, approximately 25% are not being used. In terms of the comparison with the overcrowding within the closed prison system, has Mr. Clinton any opinion on that and the way that can be managed more adequately?

The second question concerns current resources. How are the cutbacks impacting on the prison officers' ability to manage the prisons and give effective rehabilitation to prisoners? How is it affecting staff morale in terms of their safety working within the prisons? We talk about the inhumane conditions for prisoners but we must also remember the people working within the system such as Mr. Clinton's members. How does the current position in the prisons impact on staff morale and their ability to carry out their job as effectively as they wish?

Mr. John Clinton

Every single issue in our presentation and our wider presentation interlinks within the prison system. One of the positive aspects of the Thornton Hall project not going ahead from our viewpoint is that we can look at what we have currently in the system. We believe there are a number of ways of improving the prison system. To answer the Deputy's question, staff morale is low because we have seen the numbers of prisoners increase constantly and staff numbers decrease. However, during our negotiations on the Croke Park agreement we spent a great deal of time outlining a future prison system which would see us move to an enhanced incentivised regime that would allow us use fewer staffing levels in areas of a prison, for example, where all our prisoners would comply with such regimes, and put more numbers into the areas where prisoners would not comply with such regimes. We are not re-inventing the wheel here. We have seen this process in Manchester prison and the way it can work.

Overcrowding can be addressed in a number of ways. For example, a new prison block was built in Wheatfield Prison and if one walks from the old prison to the new prison one can see a complete row of what I would describe as empty offices yet we have prisoners sleeping on mattresses on floors. With a little thought a shower room and toilets could be put in those buildings and not secure cell doors as a way in and out of those buildings. We could have dormitory type accommodation within a closed prison where many people could be housed under a more humane regime and given access to a prison. I refer to people who would comply with the prison systems. They have been doing that in Magilligan prison in Northern Ireland. We are not re-inventing the wheel. There are many ways of doing that.

On the suitability issue for open centres, it is questionable whether the mechanism being used currently is the correct way of doing it. The tendency is to bring a person to an open centre very late into a long sentence but that does not necessarily mean they could not be put in an open centre much earlier if they comply with systems. People should be responsible for their own actions. Outside of prison we are responsible for our own actions every day. It is our own behaviour that will get us places but that seems to be lost once someone goes in the door of a prison. That is the reason we say we have to start at the beginning with a standard regime. The prisoner can move to an enhanced regime through proper, decent behaviour as would be expected in any society. Likewise, if someone does not comply the stick approach should be taken where we move back to a more basic system. It is not the most difficult thing in the world to do but it is difficult to get that culture change because we have a management system that is very security based. Security is the answer to some of the problems but it is not the answer to all of them.

It is interesting that in terms of Wheatfield Prison Mr. Clinton said there is scope within the current system to alleviate some of the overcrowding-----

Mr. John Clinton

In our viewpoint, yes.

Has any analysis been done in the other prisons in terms of the number of bed spaces that could be increased by utilising some of the existing resources within the prisons?

Mr. John Clinton

We saw systems in Magilligan prison in Northern Ireland where they put in Portacabin type accommodation and light fencing around it because the people involved have built up trust to get in there. We have land in areas like Castlerea Prison. There is a wall half built around Cork Prison where there is land also. There is room in Wheatfield Prison for these facilities. We put many of those ideas into the submission we gave to the review group on Thornton Hall. We believe there is great scope for doing this type of thing within the Irish prison system but everything must tie in. An integrated approach must be taken to everything in regard to sentence management from the minute the prisoner comes in the door. Everything should be designed to get the prisoner out the door. There is no point in having backdoor strategies if we do not have the correct front door ones.

That message about integration of ideas, procedures and policy is coming across. The submission referred to mental illness in prisons. Could Mr. Clinton give us any idea as to what is being encountered by staff? What kind of illnesses are prominent and what is his view of people with mental illness being in prison? Are the numbers in that regard increasing or decreasing? We heard in a submission that it may be increasing.

Mr. John Clinton

In our viewpoint it is increasing. That seems to be a viewpoint shared by the Minister in his recent annual lecture to the Irish Penal Reform Trust. We are trained to be prison officers and while our training has improved greatly with the new higher certificate in custodial care, HCCC, programme we do in the Irish Prison Service Training and Development Centre we are not trained to deal with people with mental illness of that capacity. If a person is swallowing bed springs or batteries there is something wrong with that person. We have approximately nine cells in the system for dealing with such people. That is not enough, and many of the strategies put forward to try to deal with that over the years have not moved forward at the required pace. We will not help people who are mentally ill to that extent. They should not be in the prison system but cared for elsewhere.

I thank Mr. Clinton. Senator O'Donovan has questions for Mr. Kelly and Ms Lyons.

Yes. I was interested in that submission. Reference was made to first intervention in prison in detecting certain problems but is it the case that that intervention may take place when a person is 17, 19 or 20 or whenever when it may be too late? Is there any way of intervening before people are confined to prison, although there are situations where that is identified?

I address this question to all the representatives. Is the legal system that feeds into the prisons doing its job adequately? Is it doing its job quickly? Are judges properly trained? There are different sentences and different judges have different views. A judge in County Donegal might have a different view from a judge in Dublin and hand down a longer sentence.

Reference was made to keeping people out of prison by, for example, requiring a donation to be made to a poor box or an alternative-----

I ask the Senator to rephrase that remark. We cannot move into the judicial side.

I accept that. When people are put in prison, it is up to prison officers and other authorities to deal with the system. I am not asking the delegates to comment as such; I am just saying we are considering the issue of penal reform. It is certainly one we cannot exclude and have discussed in the Dáil and the Seanad. However, the delegation might not wish to comment.

I was interested in what Ms Lisa Cuthbert had to say on reoffenders being given shorter sentences. This seems to create a problem. Are sentences too short? What crimes are involved? Is there any way of weeding out the chaos within the services?

We will get a response to that question before we move on to the next one for Ms Cuthbert. We will then return to Mr. Kelly.

Ms Lisa Cuthbert

Short-term sentences should be avoided at all costs; I am not suggesting they should be lengthened. We find from experience that the minute somebody goes into the prison system, it becomes normal. If an offender is in prison for any period less than three or six months, he or she does not qualify for access to various services or integrated sentence management. Therefore, the prison does not address any of his or her needs. Needs are not identified and addiction is not managed. As a consequence, damage is done within the community. In regard to women who enter prison on short-term sentences, or any other sentence, the child care issues that arise are considerable. This has a devastating effect on families.

What does Ms Cuthbert regard as a short-term sentence?

Ms Lisa Cuthbert

From my perspective, a short-term sentence is any sentence less than six months. Some prisoners on sentences shorter than six months are imprisoned for less than one or three weeks because of overcrowding. This involves a huge cost for the justice system in terms of the demands placed on the Garda and the courts. People ought to be diverted from the criminal justice system as much as possible.

There has been much research done in the United Kingdom on diversion tactics. The longer one keeps an individual out of the criminal justice system, the greater the chance of keeping him or her out permanently. It is preferable to have diversion straightaway and not use short-term sentences, if possible. However, people end up in prison on short-term sentences. It is the accumulation of behaviour that is not addressed within the prison community that results in the short-term sentence but very rarely in respect of the first offence.

Does Mr. Dermot Kelly want to comment on that issue?

Mr. Dermot Kelly

To respond to Senator O'Donovan's question, anti-social behaviour can begin at a very early age. We have had requests from some community leaders in some towns to help them deal with the anti-social behaviour of teenagers and others. We have been asked to ascertain how these leaders might counsel the offenders long before they enter the criminal process. The issue is that many community leaders, including social workers, have received no real training or have no understanding of anger or stress management, or identifying the issues involved and how offenders might be directed away from the prison system towards training in order that they can solve their own problems.

I support fully what Ms Cuthbert said. We want to keep people out of prison in the first instance. The minute one enters the prison system it tends to become a revolving door. Our objective is to steer individuals away from prison at a very early stage. In some cases, this means starting by training community leaders to identify the behaviours engaged in by individuals to steer them towards self-help. We know the next stage for teenagers is to receive cautionary warnings from superintendents. Sentencing policy is a common theme. The approach must begin at an early stage from the point of issue of cautionary notices. It is a matter of determining alternatives that can be offered at that stage.

That answers the general question put by Senator Denis O'Donovan, to whom I apologise for interrupting. I did not want him to stray into judicial matters. He will understand what I was getting at.

I have a question for Mr. Liam Herrick on the Parole Board becoming independent. Is it a matter for the Oireachtas to change the legislation? Given that we are now in an age of absolute political correctness, Ministers tend to err on the side of caution. If we had an independent parole board with a chief executive in charge, we would see greater results.

Reference was made to uncertainty and arbitrariness in the system. If these phenomena obtain, the onus is on legislators to address them. I fail to see why consistency is not already evident in our system. Are there examples, in England or elsewhere in Europe, of parole boards which are totally independent of the political system?

Mr. Liam Herrick

In recent years there has been a general shift in common law countries towards fully independent parole boards, as is the case in Britain. Case law from the European Court of Human Rights on life sentence prisoners shows that having governments making decisions on release points is problematic. However, the case law is not fully settled as yet.

The average sentence of life sentence prisoners in Ireland has doubled in the past 20 years, without any change in Government policy or legislation. All we have to go on are statements or the personal opinions of Ministers for Justice and Equality on how long offenders should serve. It may well be that there is public demand for this, but it is not a good way for practice to develop, as it creates great uncertainty for prisoners in that those serving long sentences have no way of knowing when they are likely to be considered for release, or when they will be released. As Senator Denis O'Donovan stated, the idea of having an independent parole process that is objective is worthy of consideration. While I am not saying Ministers are guided by political considerations, an independent body would at least be free of the impression that they are. An objective parole system could weigh the risk of somebody reoffending and the risk to the community against considerations pertaining to the individual alone. There are clear models in Britain and many other countries in this regard.

I understand the Government is committed to reform in this area. We look forward to hearing what the Minister intends to bring forward in that regard.

Will Mr. Kelly describe how the Etruscan Life Training & Education Centre is funded? What he described represents a very good process, but it is possibly very expensive.

Mr. Dermot Kelly

Overall, it is not expensive by comparison with incarceration. We hope early intervention involves the lowest cost. In early models we used systems of half or whole payment by the offender. Also used were full payment by the offender, donations to the court poor box and sponsored interventions through charitable sources. Some anti-social behaviour is attributable to addiction or drinking. In this regard, we have approached the Guinness Trust. Some of the moneys are payable through State funds, that is, through the Department of Justice and Equality and the Department of Health.

Mr. Herrick mentioned Texas which for many conjures up images of harsh regimes. He referred to justice reinvestment in Texas and stated overall justice budgets had been reduced significantly through parole reform and shifting resources towards rehabilitation services such as those about which Mr. Kelly spoke, including services providing addiction treatment and to deal with anger management. Will Mr. Herrick state how this works? Has he been to Texas? What level of engagement has he had with the system?

Mr. Liam Herrick

I have not been to Texas. We are considering research findings from around the world. In broad terms, the past 20 years have seen a huge process of incarceration internationally, with dramatic increases in prison populations in most developed countries. However, this now is turning around and parallels exist with Ireland in this regard. The position is turning around in the United States because of fiscal considerations and the fact that some states have become bankrupt, partly because of overspending on prisons. States such as Texas have set goals to reduce their prison population. However, they have diverted some of the money saved into treatment in prisons, which has had benefits in respect of re-offending. My point is that in places from which one might not expect to see good examples, interesting examples can be found. The phrase "justice re-investment" was also the title of a major report drawn up by a parliamentary committee in the United Kingdom, which again discussed diverting funds into probation, prevention and early intervention. There is international movement in this regard and Ireland's decision to not go ahead with Thornton Hall but instead focus on its own system of reducing costs also resonates with much of what is happening in other jurisdictions.

The health sector uses the phrase "money follows the patient". In this case, is it suggested that money should follow the offender or potential offender? Rather than the money being used in prisons, which Mr. Dermot Kelly has noted is extremely expensive, funding could be used in other ways. Does that model exist somewhere?

Mr. Liam Herrick

There is much to be said for that. There is a real danger in the current climate that probation and services in the community would be soft targets for cuts and that consideration will not be given to the long-term savings that are produced by those services. A number of years ago, the probation service carried out a value-for-money study on its own work in respect of community service orders, which showed that such orders cost quarter as much as the equivalent period of imprisonment and achieve better results in reducing re-offending. The danger is if one only assesses each budget line discretely in its own silo, probation might be vulnerable to cuts to a greater extent than are prisons. The issue here is about diverting prison resources within the prison system to improving services in prisons, while also retaining the probation service budget. As we are saving money by not building to the extent that we have, we have money to use for both probation and prisons in a constructive manner.

The suggestion of reviewing prison sentences was mentioned, as opposed to what is happening at present, both here and in England, with reductions of between three quarters and two thirds. Do the witnesses perceive a need for a return to the Judiciary to review sentences or would this be done independently? I have in mind a scenario in which a person entered a programme in which he or she became involved in education, training or whatever and acted as a model prisoner. Such a person may have received a 15-year sentence but after seven or eight years, it became obvious he or she would not re-offend. For example, I recently encountered someone who had been put off the road for seven years. He was obliged to prove that he had given up drinking. He had received alcohol-related treatment, had insurance, was refocused and had a new job. In this case, the judge decided that a ban of seven years was very severe and agreed to allow him back after four. While I acknowledge this scenario is completely different, does Mr. Herrick envisage a judicial intervention for the reduction of sentences? Alternatively, should the Judiciary be kept out of it completely, that is, should it be independent?

Mr. Liam Herrick

There is a constitutional difficulty with judges bringing back persons to review sentences, which has come before the Supreme Court previously. On the more general point, one must bear in mind what is happening at present, which is that a significant number of prisoners are being released in an unstructured way under temporary release. We seek to have a more structured alternative. In the case of longer-term prisoners, this would entail an independent assessment, which would be done appropriately by a parole board in most cases. This would focus on risk in that one would become eligible to come before the parole board at a certain point. Were it satisfied that one was engaging constructively with treatment and if one no longer posed a risk, one should then be eligible for release. The judge should only deal with the original sentence and the parole board should deal with issues pertaining to risk and future release. However, there is much to be recommended about the suggestion that part of a sentence would be served in the community and there is a great deal of scope for this.

I have a question on remand prisoners because according to some figures supplied to members, they comprise approximately 15% of the prison population. However, one should consider the number of people who go on to be convicted. When approximately 4,000 people on remand went to court last year, either the case did not go ahead or they were not convicted. A huge number of people are spending time on remand but then do not get prosecuted. There must be some scope to consider the manner in which the system works, especially in respect of prison overcrowding. These are huge figures.

Mr. Liam Herrick

This is an issue that can be examined. I refer to a single specific category, namely, that of young offenders, where the proportion is much higher. In the case of young men in St Patrick's Institution and of boys and girls who are detained in the child detention school system, the proportion of persons detained on remand who subsequently do not receive a custodial sentence is very high. A number of years ago, a report was prepared for the Minister of State with responsibility for children and youth affairs, which proposed bail reform and remand reform for young people. However, the recommendations of that report, to the effect that people would be supported in the community and would not go into detention, have not been acted on. This is one category that definitely could be considered but there may well be other potential areas. Again, it appears as though a significant proportion of women prisoners on remand do not subsequently receive sentences.

Moreover, remand prisoners cannot benefit from temporary release. If one enters prison for a fine default or for a six-month sentence, one could be out after a day or two. However, if one is in prison on remand, even for a minor offence, one cannot be released until one has been tried. There have been a number of cases in recent years in which women on remand for very minor offences can spend one or two months in the Dóchas Centre, whereas had they been sentenced, they may have been released after a couple of days or weeks.

Are there any final comments?

Ms Lisa Cuthbert

I was interested in Senator O'Donovan's comment regarding the model prisoner because one challenge we see concerns those who can cope very well in prison. They can be model prisoners and can behave very well there. They have no responsibilities and can operate within that structure but then fall apart within the community because they must make their own decisions. They must feed themselves and provide clothing and work. One challenge we see from a community perspective concerns how to build up that sense of responsibility while people are in prison and to ensure they come out prepared for release, because prison is about getting people out there eventually. The primary purpose of this exercise is to consider what is the point of prison. While it is about punishment, ultimately everyone who goes in also comes out. PACE sees many people who technically are model prisoners but who cannot cope in the community. The community piece is inevitable for everyone who goes into prison and this cannot be forgotten in respect of penal reform.

Mr. Jim Mitchell

Deputy O'Brien made a point earlier with regard to bed capacity as a means of measuring overcrowding. It has been noted in a report of the Inspector of Prisons and Places of Detention that it may not be the most accurate way to do this. Up to three to five years ago, overcrowding had been measured in respect of cell capacity. Obviously legislation exists, as well as European and international norms, as to what the size of a cell should be and on the number of people who should be in it. In recent years, however, it appears as though the figures that have emerged have related to bed capacity, which may not give a full and accurate picture. Appalling as is the level of overcrowding as it stands at present, our belief is that it is actually considerably worse, given the manner in which the statistics have been produced. Bed capacity does not provide an accurate reflection of the huge difficulties that exist. In future, when some kind of explanation is given as to the level of overcrowding and the number of people who are in our prisons, it will be that bed capacity is precisely that; it relates specifically to the bed in which a person sleeps and not to the area in which he or she lives.

That is interesting. Thank you.

Mr. Dermot Kelly

I wish to re-emphasise that while I can see the tone relates to imprisonment, our focus is on keeping people out of prison before they go there. Second, there has been quite a lot of discussion on sentencing and community sentences, as opposed to imprisonment. While this is well and good, we need to persuade people to change their behaviour and understand what their behaviour does to the community and how changing their behaviour can improve their lives.

I thank the witnesses. Obviously, penal reform and what happens in prisons is of huge interest. While this includes the backdoor policies, the witnesses' proposals are also very important and are closely linked to that. I thank everyone for their attendance and for giving up their time to help members with the work they are trying to do. I also invite them to keep in contact with the sub-committee if there are further points they wish to make at any stage. We will have similar hearings with other groups. We try to keep proceedings to within a period of an hour and a half. If the groups represented wish to meet the sub-committee again or make further submissions or proposals, they should please feel free to do so. They are also welcome to attend meetings when other groups make submissions to the sub-committee which is serious about the issue penal reform which it wants to address as quickly as it can. I thank the groups for their attendance.

The sub-committee adjourned at 10.50 a.m. sine die.
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