JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN'S RIGHTS debate -
Tuesday, 27 Jan 2009

Policing Issues: Discussion with Garda Síochána.

Chairman

I welcome Mr. Fachtna Murphy, Commissioner; Mr. Martin Callinan, deputy commissioner, operations; Mr. Gerry Blake, chief superintendent, crime policy; and Ms Sinead McSweeney, director of communications. Before commencing I wish to advise that we will receive a presentation that will be followed by a question and answer session. I draw attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee which cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Furthermore, under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite the Commissioner to make his presentation.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

The Chairman has briefly introduced the team but I shall do so again. Mr. Martin Callinan is my deputy commissioner of operations, Mr. Gerry Blake is the chief superintendent in charge of crime policy. Ms Sinead McSweeney is my director of communications. I thank the Chairman for the invitation to attend the committee today to discuss important issues of concern to the committee and to the wider community. The committee asked me to deal with crime policy, the annual policing plans, policing priorities and other current topics. I will cover these briefly in my opening statement and I can then take further questions on those and any other areas members wish to raise.

The strength of the organisation as of 31 December 2008 was 14,412 sworn members. That includes all ranks. There were 330 reserve members. There were 2,693 civilians which is equal to 2,099 whole time equivalents employed in various administrative, professional and technical posts as of the same date. We in the Garda Síochána have made significant progress to date in the recruitment of civilian staff at all levels and grades yielding new efficiencies and introducing new expertise throughout the Garda organisation. At senior level we have appointed a chief administrative officer, an executive director of ICT, a head of legal services, a director of communications and a number of analysts.

In structural terms, we have recently revised some divisional boundaries to bring them into line with local authority boundaries enabling us to work more effectively with joint policing committees. In 2008 the overall budget for the Garda Vote was almost €1.578 billion. The budget provision for 2009 is €1.55 billion.

Turning to crime and crime policy, when I became Commissioner more than a year ago I stated that my priority was to ensure that people were safe and felt safe in their homes and on our streets. With that in mind I have several clear objectives. We must maintain a strong role for community policing. The community is at the heart of everything we do and the community is our greatest ally in dealing with crime. The Garda Síochána has a long established tradition of fostering and developing close relationships within the communities it serves. To renew and reinvigorate those relationships and the structure of our community policing function, we have developed a new national model of community policing which I launched yesterday with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform at the opening of the Ballymun divisional headquarters station. That model has been informed by submissions from members of the public and various interested parties and builds on the success of existing good community policing practice in which we have been engaged throughout Ireland for many years. I am committed to enhancing the organisational importance and attractiveness of the community policing role among Garda staff and to ensuring that there is a strong ethos of community policing throughout the entirety of the Garda Síochána. The end objectives are an increased level of community partnerships, a more visible Garda presence and a reduction in crime and the fear of crime in our communities.

I am determined that there will be a clear focus to all our operations and investigations. All of our activity must be targeted to achieve maximum results. Whether we are determining the levels and scope of patrols, prioritising our roads policing or tackling the most serious and organised crime, our operations are intelligence-led and knowledge based. This approach is clearly evident and necessary in the area of drug crime. Much serious criminal activity and a significant percentage of less serious crime, has its roots in the illicit drugs trade. The commitment of the Garda Síochána to tackling this scourge in co-operation with our partners at home and abroad is undiminished.

During 2008 there was a significant increase in the quantity of seizures of illegal drugs across almost all types when compared to 2007. In addition, there was an increase of the order of 20% in the number of drugs offences detected compared to 2O07. During 2008, the Garda Síochána conducted a number of successful covert and overt operations against the illicit drugs trade. In addition to the remit of the Garda National Drugs Unit on a national level, we now have active drugs units in every Garda division in the state, with 379 officers employed on local drug investigations.

We also further enhanced our commitment to international efforts to thwart the international trade in drugs by posting a liaison sergeant to the Maritime Analysis and Operations Centre-Narcotics, MAOC-N, based in Lisbon, Portugal from where the movement of drugs by sea is monitored by an international team of police, customs, and other agencies. I view this as a very significant development, given Ireland's island status. This international partnership was hugely significant in the context of the seizure off the south-west coast recently. The Garda Síochána consistently demonstrates a strong resolve to tackle the supply side of the drugs trade. As a society, there is a wider challenge for us in addressing the demand side.

Turning to overall crime, the Central Statistics Office now has statutory responsibility for the publication of national crime figures and the official figures for 2008 are not yet publicly available. I can say, however, that there was a slight increase over the course of the year in what were previously known as headline crimes although the trend in the second half of the year was downwards and we are seeking to continue that in 2009.

During the year, 51 murders and three cases of manslaughter were recorded. This compares to 77 murders and seven cases of manslaughter recorded during 2007. Firearms murders, particularly those associated with organised criminal activity continue to present a significant challenge. Firearms were used in 21 of the 51 recorded murders in 2008. Sixteen of these are linked to organised crime.

In regard to gangland crime, to date we have seen several serious incidents related to so-called gangland crime. In responding to those crimes, we have well resourced investigation teams in place which draw together both local and national resources and expertise. Those teams have already recovered firearms which were most probably used in two of the incidents. Their determined work to solve the crimes is ongoing. We are continuing our existing proactive operations and initiatives to target the individuals involved. Gardaí are out there every day and every night intercepting people, disrupting their activities, making arrests, and seizing firearms and drugs. That activity is relentless and recent public reporting of some successes is but an indication of the true level of what we are achieving.

As Commissioner, I am clear on what is required of the Garda Síochána in tackling this criminality and addressing the devastation, fear and intimidation it causes in some communities. I am confident that we have the capacity, experience and expertise required to do so. Let no one underestimate the challenge involved. We are dealing with people — sometimes quite young people — who have a reckless disregard for human life and who, with cynical ease, resort to extreme violence and seek to settle scores, recover drug debts and claim territory down the barrel of a gun.

We in the Garda Síochána, have a high level of knowledge about the activities of the main players and gangs involved. However, the crucial step is translating that information and knowledge into evidence, getting these people before the courts and securing convictions. I have spoken on previous occasions about the difficulties we face in that regard, including the absence of eye witnesses, lack of forensic evidence, witness intimidation and so on. We are working hard to overcome those obstacles.

Of equal importance is that fact that we also continue to build on our existing strong links with communities so they can have the trust, confidence and reassurance that is necessary to reduce the fear of crime. By working together we can rid their communities of the scourge which impacts adversely on their daily lives.

The annual policing plan 2009 was published in December and includes the priorities of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. It is based on consultation with the community and other partners, and outlines the key actions which we will undertake in pursuing our core activity which is the prevention and detection of crime. Under the plan we will continue to target those people who are committing crime at all levels, including organised crime and drug crime. We will also focus on anti-social behaviour and public disorder, which affects the quality of life in local communities.

In line with our continuing commitment to road safety and roads policing we will work with other agencies to change driver behaviour and reduce deaths on our roads. The plan is directed at achieving that objective and ensuring that we consistently seek to deliver the highest standards of professional policing for the community.

We are continuing an ambitious programme of change and modernisation which flows from our corporate strategy 2007-2009 entitled, A Time for Change. This programme aims to ensure that I am leading a professional and progressive organisation, capable of meeting and sustaining the challenges of 21st century policing within a dynamic and changing political, social, demographic and policing environment.

I will leave it there and deal with any questions the members wish to raise with me.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

I join the Chairman in extending a very warm welcome of appreciation to the Garda Commissioner and his senior team for their attendance and also to Ms Sinead McSweeney who is returning not so much to her alma mater but certainly to a place where I am sure she gained some valuable experience and expertise. The delegation is very welcome.

I am not sure if this is an annual event. I do not recall attendance of the Garda top brass at a meeting with the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights in the past. However, I acknowledge its attendance at a meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts. It is not only appropriate but necessary that attendance at this committee would become a regular feature.

I acknowledge the great work of the Garda Síochána as protector of communities. I commend Garda activity in this city which prevented attacks on two recent occasions — in Finglas with the stopping of the car containing guns and the ramming of the car in Clonshaugh — both instances of most dangerous activity but instances of great success on the part of the Garda Síochána where courage and bravery were displayed in good measure. It is indicative of, perhaps, an everyday experience on the part of the Garda where gangs and gang members have escalated their activities.

I wish to ask three questions, one of which is on gangland and gun crime. Notwithstanding what the Commissioner has said, one of the more disappointing statistics in the area of gun and gang crime is that out of 166 gun murders in recent years, there are only 21 cases of recorded convictions where the perpetrators have been put away. Some 21 convictions following 166 gun murders is not a great record.

In terms of evidence gathering, the House has a role to play in concert with the Garda Síochána. The Commissioner refers to the crucial step of translating information into evidence, getting people before the courts and securing convictions. In regard to evidence gathering, intelligence and monitoring, where are the defects in the system from a legislative point of view? We are informed by the Minister and commentators that there is sufficient legislation and that it is not a matter of legislation. We are also informed it is not a matter of Garda resources, that the Commissioner has sufficient resources and expertise and that it is not a problem of Garda numbers. We are reminded of increases in Garda numbers which are welcome.

Where are the regulatory deficiencies and where is the legislative weakness? What assistance does the Commissioner and his team consider that we, as legislators, can provide to ensure the achievement for society of a greater level of conviction than 21 cases out of 166?

We have assurances that front line services will not be subjected to cuts, yet overtime budgets are slashed by tens of millions of euro. In the context of gangland crime, where fear and intimidation are rife in urban communities, what additional resources are being deployed to urban areas or gangland hot spots in this city? I refer, in particular, to the ratios of gardaí per head of population in the inner city. A comparative analysis from 2006 to 2008 shows a marked reduction in Garda members per head of population at the Bridewell, Fitzgibbon Street, Coolock, Tallaght, Blanchardstown, Clondalkin and Lucan Garda stations. I would have thought these are areas where there is a particular gang problem and that it might be appropriate to consider a deployment of greater numbers of gardaí. Perhaps the Commissioner would address that issue.

In the area of Garda management, to which the Commissioner referred — I am looking at this from a lay perspective — I do not believe we make the best use of Garda time and resources. For example, gardaí stand around courts for the best part of a day and do work behind desks that could, perhaps, be done by administrators and persons not engaged in front line services. There has been an improvement in prison escorts. There is also the issue of remand prisoners. Given that I represent Portlaoise, the convoy of prison escorts to courts involving, on some occasions, Army as well as Garda personnel, would appear to be an area where the review group might point to some potential for improvement. On that matter, the average complement of civilian membership in European police forces is between 20% and 40%. On average, 30% of EU police forces comprise civilian members while it is less than 5% here. In the context of best practice and managerial change, what are the Commissioner's targets in that regard?

I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to speak. I acknowledge the great professional standards displayed by the Garda Síochána. I welcome the changes, as referred to by the Garda Commissioner, and I wish him and the force well in the very difficult times that lie ahead.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I thank Deputy Flanagan sincerely for his remarks on the professionalism of the Garda Síochána. They are well justified. I am grateful to the committee for its invitation to us. I attended the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights on a number of occasions with my predecessor. It is not our first time to be here. We are pleased to come as the occasion demands to account for what is happening. I made a note of a number of issues the Deputy raised and I will try to address them as fully as possible.

The first issue relates to legislative change. I am aware the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is in the throes of introducing legislation on surveillance to provide a legislative framework for the type of work we have to do in terms of following those people who are intent on shooting each other and who are engaged in serious criminality, much of it drugs related. I welcome that move by the Oireachtas. I recognise that the Oireachtas is the area where legislative change takes place.

I have stated on record as Commissioner of the Garda Síochána, that my senior management team and I are reasonably happy with the level of legislation in place, especially given the amount of legislation that has been enacted in recent years. I am pleased with the recent provisions allowing evidence from witnesses who have been intimidated and who are afraid to give evidence in court. On one occasion before Christmas in the Circuit Criminal Court when 11 witnesses would not give evidence the new provisions incorporated into the Criminal Justice Acts 2006 and 2007 allowed that evidence before the court and the individual concerned was convicted and received a sentence of ten years' imprisonment.

A considerable amount of intimidation is going on and that is one of the challenges we face. I have to assign many members of the Garda to provide protection for witnesses in parts of the city. What I need to get is viva voce evidence — by word of mouth — from witnesses in the courts and intimidation frequently prevents that from happening. We have a witness security programme. I have as much money as I require for that, but the issue for us in the Garda Síochána — I stated this before the Committee of Public Accounts recently — is to get witnesses to give evidence either from where they live or to move to some other country. It is a big cultural issue for somebody to uproot their family as well as themselves and go abroad. We cannot introduce any law that will make a difference to that cultural issue. We have utilised the witness security programme effectively on many occasions and we are considering its use for witnesses to a number of high profile crimes that occurred lately.

In terms of legislation that I would like to see, I look forward to the introduction of legislation on DNA and the DNA database. I am aware the Bill on that matter is in place and will be promulgated shortly. The use of forensic evidence is key to our success. I set up a crime training faculty in the Garda college in Templemore to ensure that my criminal investigators have the best possible training to get evidence and to bring it before the courts. At all times, we in the Garda Síochána, as any police force in a democracy, have to work within the rule of law.

Regarding cutbacks, it is common knowledge because the Estimates have been published that I have less money available to me this year in terms of overtime. The estimated spend for 2008 was €107 million and it exceeded that by some millions. The amount that has been allocated this year is €80 million. The sums are clear. For me it is all about prioritising to ensure that the money I have goes a long way, at a time when we are all aware of the concerns about a downturn in the economy. We all have to play our part and put our shoulder to the wheel. I have focused my managers on doing that to cut out the unnecessary fat, if there is fat in the system.

The community policing initiative we launched yesterday will play a significant role in providing the visibility that is inherent in the Deputy's question. It will get the Garda into communities to gain intelligence and information and relay it back to the centre where action can be taken, not just in terms of minor crimes but more serious ones also. I take on board what the Deputy said about certain aspects of allocations to the Bridewell and other places in the north inner city. I assure him that in recent years because the strength of the force has increased, all our divisions have a greater number of gardaí. Within that increase, my managers, whom I consult regularly on allocation, have to plan and concentrate the resources from time to time in what I call the hot spots. They are obvious to everybody who reads the newspapers. I refer to Finglas, Limerick and other places where we have had great difficulty in recent times.

The emergency response unit, the national support unit, local detective units, plain clothes patrols, the regional response unit in Limerick and the organised crime unit in Dublin are concentrating their activity, working closely with the local membership in the districts to prevent crime in the first place. I can state without fear of contradiction that not just in the two cases where we made intercepts last week, and where it may well be assumed that we prevented other deaths, day in, day out, my people are acting on intelligence we gather to prevent those types of crimes. It is a considerable challenge but we are working and we are focused on it.

Currently, the ratio of civilians to gardaí is 1:7. I said at the Committee of Public Accounts and I stand over it here that I would prefer to see the ratio at 1:3 or 1:4. I assure Deputy Flanagan that in recent years during my time as Commissioner and in the latter period of my predecessor we have employed 600 more civilians than we had two years ago. We have employed key people in senior positions to allow my senior people out to do the job they have been trained to do and which they are qualified to manage best.

The courts were discussed at length in the Committee of Public Accounts. A significant proportion of my people are tied up in court. It is the law of the land that evidence must be given viva voce in many cases that are contested in the courts. That is the reality. I welcome the legislation introduced with the fixed charge penalty system, FCPS, especially for road traffic offences. The more successful and vigorous we are in our approach to prosecutions, the more demands there are likely to be on my officers. However, I welcome this and the fixed charge penalty procedure introduced under the Intoxicating Liquor Act 2008 to allow this type of administrative sanction to be imposed rather than tying my officers up in court. This is an issue for us.

As Deputy Flanagan rightly acknowledged, we have made tremendous strides in transferring responsibility for prison escorts to the Prison Service but more needs to be done. I am having discussions with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Mr. Brian Purcell, director general of the Prison Service, to see how this can be done within the available budget this year. I can confirm that we all want this to happen. I want to relieve as many members of the Garda Síochána as possible from these unnecessary duties. However, I must state — I am cognisant of the constituency which the Deputy represents — that for security reasons, there are times when it is necessary to use the Army and the Garda Síochána to transfer and escort certain high profile prisoners but the focus is in the other direction to allow the Prison Service do more and more of this work.

I hope I have covered most of the questions asked.

Chairman

Deputy Flanagan asked a question on civilian staffing and Mr. Murphy stated the ratio was 1:7. How many trained gardaí are still engaged in administrative duties?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I do not have that figure. The increase of 600 in the number of civilian staff in the past two years has allowed us to release many of those who would otherwise be engaged in this duty. Because of previous agreements at conciliation and arbitration a certain number are designated as clerks and remain in that position. However, my focus is on moving towards relieving as many gardaí as possible who are engaged in these duties and replacing them with civilian personnel. However, because of budgetary issues I do not have immediate plans to recruit more civilian staff.

Deputy Brian O’Shea

I welcome the Commissioner, deputy commissioner, chief superintendent and Ms McSweeney and compliment them on the progress made in the face of a changing crime environment which is becoming more professional and international. Would it help in the fight against crime, particularly drug crime, if the CAB was allowed to investigate cases involving lesser amounts?

The low disposal rate of cases in some courts must be extremely frustrating for members of the force. It has been stated to me that the disposal rates in the District Court in my area can be as low as 15% or 20%. An issue is raised, whereby the longest sentence that can be imposed by a District Court is two years. Some cases involve charges which carry a sentence of two years on conviction but further charges are added and cases are adjourned. Can we, as legislators, assist in achieving a more effective disposal rate of cases?

With regard to gardaí being tied up in court, the constituency of Waterford which I represent has been identified as a suitable location for the Central Criminal Court to sit outside Dublin. Unfortunately, Waterford has a major problem with the number of courtrooms available and it is not a runner. Does the Commissioner agree it would be a more effective and efficient use of Garda time to hear cases of this nature outside Dublin, as witnesses must travel and gardaí are tied up in Dublin?

The matters of anti-social behaviour and intimidation have been dealt with. For some time Waterford has had a particular problem which is proving exceedingly difficult for the Garda Síochána to tackle. It has tied up many man-hours and gardaí from outside Waterford. With regard to Travellers feuding, can we take measures, perhaps non-legislative measures, to assist in solving this problem which seems to be acute in various areas throughout the country?

I welcome the emphasis on community policing and the progress made on civilianisation. How do we find ways to deal with intimidation surrounding anti-social behaviour? Where communities have particularly intimidating characters, people are fearful of reprisals if they give evidence. People in communities are vulnerable and gardaí cannot be everywhere all of the time. Even though some matters may be relatively low key when considered objectively, people can be extremely fearful and face great difficulties. What can the Oireachtas do to assist the Garda Síochána in dealing more effectively with these problems?

The Commissioner spoke about the challenge in dealing with the demand side of drugs. It confuses and surprises me that otherwise law-abiding citizens buy so-called recreational drugs and seem to be in denial about where the proceeds go. What does the Garda Síochána have in mind to deal with this problem in the coming year?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

The short answer is to make detections and prosecute those involved.

Deputy O'Shea raised a number of issues which I will try to deal with sequentially. When the Criminal Assets Bureau was established, it was necessary for it to target some extremely high profile individuals because that was the issue at the time. However, as it has evolved, it targets individuals and takes action through the courts at a range of levels against not only high profile individuals but those in the middle, particularly in the drugs scene. It is a question of the bureau establishing the facts and gathering information. It has established a network of profilers in each division to feed information into the bureau with a view to taking action. This has happened in Limerick, Cork, Sligo, Galway, Dublin and many other places. The bureau works effectively and I am a supporter. I was its first chief and held that post for three and a half years. I was involved in its establishment and support the multi-agency approach adopted.

I agree with Deputy O'Shea that it is not only high profile and well known individuals who need to be targeted. Those in the middle also need to be targeted and I know the bureau is doing so. It is a question of compiling and establishing evidence to the required level of proof. That level of proof is lower than the criminal level but enables the bureau to get the evidence and bring cases to court, which it is now doing very effectively.

The questions about charging and the delays in courts would require me to stray into areas proper to the Director of Public Prosecutions. Judges frequently travel from outside Dublin, particularly for homicide and murder trials. I and my senior colleagues helped develop that practice some years ago and it works very effectively, particularly in places such as Limerick where huge numbers of Garda witnesses have had to be brought to the Central Criminal Court in Dublin. Judge Carney in particular frequently travels outside Dublin to hear cases and that helps us greatly to manage the attendance of our people in court.

I am very conscious of the Traveller feud in Waterford. This is a community issue and not just one for gardaí. It is for the community to influence events and build confidence in the system. In this regard community policing is very important. Many good people live in communities where feuding takes place but, as in many other areas, it is a few which create the problem. We endeavour to build on the good relationships we have with contacts in those communities. However, we also have to show the other face of policing and recent searches to seize firearms, and other implements used in the feuds, are paying dividends.

I was asked about the demand side of drugs. Every morning I read of incidents in which drugs have been seized by members of the Garda Síochána and huge consignments have been seized on occasions. Our drug prosecutions have increased this year and our seizures are up on previous years, not taking into account the major seizures off the Cork coast in the past two years which cannot be used as a barometer for seizures in general. We continue with significant detection in the area of drug crime.

We target the demand side but pay special attention to the supply side. We are prepared to work with local communities and their task forces and the extension of the joint policing committees is an opportunity for the Garda Síochána, local representatives and local community leaders to get together to address demand. As many people have said, people who buy recreational drugs contribute to the potential for a serious crime tonight, because 99% of the issue concerns the substantial amounts of money in the illicit drugs trade. People are prepared to kill and maim for control of that business.

Chairman

I thank the Commissioner. If he wishes to bring in any of his colleagues he is welcome to do so.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I too welcome the Commissioner and his colleagues. I discussed the issue with Chief Inspector O'Toole last week as it pertains to County Meath. It is a problem in the commuter belt but also in rural areas with expanding populations. Until recently there has been a huge deficit in Garda numbers in areas such as Laytown and Duleek but there have been major improvements. The separation of Louth and Meath into separate divisions has been very positive because at one stage Stamullen operated out of Balbriggan, Laytown out of Drogheda and Duleek out of Navan, even though all three places are beside each other. Now some structure has been imposed and the joint policing committee in Meath, when it is up and running, will bring the good efforts of restructuring to fruition.

What plans does the Commissioner have for commuter belt areas, places with expanding population and rural areas which are expanding with people returning home to build houses? My experience of gardaí in Nobber, Slane, Duleek and Laytown is very positive and they are doing a wonderful job. However, some stations are still under-resourced for the work demanded of them, though they do a fantastic job. What are the plans for deployment in areas of high growth population? What are the plans for stations? I am aware that funding is an issue but several stations were built to service the needs of villages which have now become large towns. The stations have not changed with the times in that regard. Some towns were once not even villages but they have no Garda station. I realise stations are not the be-all and end-all and can take up a great deal of garda time and resources. However, in quite large towns such as Ratoath there is no Garda station while small villages, particularly in Border areas, have stations.

I acknowledge and welcome all that has been done. There have been huge changes in County Meath in the past 18 months. The Garda does a wonderful job but there is more to be done.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

As the Deputy is aware, I have instigated boundary changes in Counties Louth, Meath, Wicklow and Kildare in the past 12 months. One of the reasons was to make the divisions coterminous with the counties and local authorities. That has been very helpful in the areas to which the Deputy referred. Meath and Louth are now divisions of their own, as are Wicklow and Kildare and I hope that will help concentrate resources where they are needed.

Everybody who speaks to me wants more gardaí. We take into account the numbers in the population, crime figures, new housing estates and local management in deploying our people to the best effect. I am conscious that the belt around Dublin has experienced a significant increase in population in the past 20 years and this poses a challenge to ensure enough members of the Garda Síochána are deployed. All divisions have benefited from an increase in numbers in recent years because of the increase in recruitment. We are focused on providing the best possible policing service. Community policing is a core part of our service delivery and is required to provide the necessary visibility and faster responses.

Deputy Denis Naughten

I welcome the Commissioner and his staff. I acknowledge the work the Garda Síochána is doing in communities across the country, in a changing and very challenging environment.

The present Garda communication system is archaic. The new communication system is being rolled out on a phased basis but when will it be completed? While the Dublin metropolitan area will, understandably, be the priority, many rural divisions, and they are not very rural at this stage, are being given less priority in terms of the roll-out of that structure. It will be a considerable period before that is in place and that is disappointing. Can the Commissioner give any assurances that the timetables set out in the context of the reduced budget will be delivered upon? We cannot have the Garda Síochána living in the dark ages in terms of its communications systems.

On the issue of technology, could the Commissioner update us on the PULSE system? I was concerned to read in one of the Sunday newspapers that an individual remained out of prison because the original offence and the fact that there was a condition on the suspension of his original conviction was not logged on the PULSE system. He came before the courts on nine separate occasions before this was identified. Approximately 50% of stations currently have the PULSE system in place. This covers the busier stations. What are the plans to roll it out to other stations? Can we be sure that the failures that occurred in the case I mentioned will not be repeated?

The Commissioner referred to the Maritime Analysis and Operations Centre — Narcotics, MAOC-N, and the excellent work it is doing. That has borne fruit to date and will continue to do so.

The other big issue is organised crime. Guns are a major issue, as are drugs and trafficking in human beings. In recent months the Garda Síochána set up a dedicated trafficking unit and is working with the UK authorities. The US State Department, among others, is seriously concerned that Ireland is being used to traffic people into the sex industry here or in the UK. Perhaps the Commissioner could bring us up to speed regarding what co-operation is taking place, how significant the Garda believes the challenge is and how, through the policing plan, it hopes to at least begin to address what, according to anecdotal evidence, seems to be a growing problem in this jurisdiction.

The Commissioner spoke about road safety and the tremendous work done. In that regard, one new development has been the establishment of a road accident investigation unit within the Garda Síochána. It is an extremely useful tool in providing information to the public as to the causes of accidents. That information is fed into the Road Safety Authority but there is need to compile some of the data for use by the Garda Síochána. I have in mind simple things that people are not conscious of, for example, the fact that if a driver puts something on the passenger seat it could end up killing him or her if the car turns over in an accident, an outcome that has been identified by the investigation unit. A mechanism should be put in place to ensure that very useful information now being collected by the Garda Síochána gets into the public domain to make people more conscious of the risks associated with various driving habits and practices.

Deputy O'Shea mentioned what is probably one of the biggest challenges to the Garda Síochána in terms of community support. I refer to the growing problem of anti-social behaviour. It is a challenging issue. Huge amounts of resources have to be put into dealing with the headline crimes and I am aware the Garda Síochána as an organisation is evaluated on the basis of how it deals with these. However, it is the constant undermining of the social order and community spirit by anti-social behaviour that devastates many communities and facilitates the development of organised crime in the longer term. We have seen that happening in many communities that are now hitting the headlines. The Garda Síochána cannot solve this issue on its own. Much more co-operation with local authorities, youth organisations and so on is necessary. Does the Commissioner believe the new joint policing committees can deal with that? Could the Garda Síochána have an input, for example, into the planning and design of housing estates?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Deputy Naughten has asked questions on five areas. I will try to deal with them in sequence.

In regard to the Garda communications network, I have ring-fenced significant funding in the Garda budget, €27 million this year, to ensure that we and TETRA Ireland which has been awarded the contract are in a position to meet our contractual obligations. As has been rightly highlighted, having a nationwide digital radio service for the Garda Síochána is very much a significant aspect of ensuring the delivery of an efficient policing service. This service was contracted on 1 May last through CMOD in the Department of Finance. The service will be made available to all members of the organisation and appropriate training will have to be provided. In answer to Deputy Naughten's key question, the planned timescale for the Garda Síochána to migrate to the national digital radio service is of 24 month duration with migration starting in the Dublin metropolitan region in the first quarter of 2009. We estimate it will be finalised in mid-2011 with approximately 17,000 terminals operating in the system. We expect to bring some 12,000 subscribers into the service within the first 12 months of commencing migration at the end of this quarter. The money is ring-fenced, the plans are in place. The roll-out is about to start. I cannot wait for it. It is a very important aspect of policing, particularly when we are challenged with major events to organise from time to time, as we were in the past three or four years with Accession Day and the visit of former President Bush when we put 5,000 or 6,000 members of the force on the street.

Deputy Naughten raised the issue of technology and PULSE in the context of a particular case. Until 16 November last we relied significantly on members returning from court feeding in information about the results of cases. The migration to the operability project, PULSE and the fact that the courts system personnel will have responsibility for feeding the results of cases directly into the system will ensure the data are more accurate, validated and readily available. Information will be fed into the system at source. That is a significant advance which will, I hope, address the concerns of the past. In line with that, PULSE 4.5, which was released in November 2008, involves summons applications, court schedules, court outcomes, bail records, warrant records, details of company prosecutions and enhancement in location searching. We hope the release of PULSE 5 will take place in March or April 2009 and at any rate before the summer. It will deal with missing persons, sex offenders, fixed charge public order processes for people who engage in public disorder, firearms registration and licensing. The last release was orientated around the courts process but missing persons and sex offenders will be part of the next release.

Deputy Denis Naughten

Are they not part of it at the moment?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

They are not part of the core PULSE system, although they are the subject of computerised data collection.

The Deputy asked about guns, drugs and trafficking in the context of the MAOC-N maritime operations centre and I have answered Deputy Flanagan at length on that topic. The Deputy also asked about human trafficking. With the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, I was at the launch of the Operation BlueBlindfold awareness campaign. It is important to maintain awareness not just among people who were born here but among the many who have come to live in the jurisdiction. In one Garda division 22% of inhabitants are non-Irish nationals, which brings challenges for policing.

I assure the Deputy and the committee that we engage with our neighbours and Europe. I hear what he says about the United States but I am giving him the facts from my perspective. We co-operate in Operation Pentameter, which allows co-operation on trafficking among seven European countries including France, Germany, the UK and Ireland. There is a great deal of conjecture about the amount of trafficking that takes place, particularly relating to prostitution and the labour market. My intelligence people tell me we are investigating the activity and the Garda National Immigration Bureau has been delegated as the core investigator with gardaí throughout the country. We are monitoring three or four eastern European gangs with a view to acquiring the evidence to bring proceedings against them. In tandem, we run Operation Gull with our near neighbours in which we monitor the people coming into the country to identify those who may be trafficked for prostitution or the labour market.

On road safety, our road traffic collision people do a good job. From time to time it is necessary to close roads but we try to minimise closures. We have 13 qualified people and are training another 31 for this purpose, which is a core aspect of our traffic collision investigations. Deaths on the road dropped by 59 in 2008 as compared with 2007 and have dropped by more than 100 since 2005. We are going in the right direction but cannot be complacent even though deaths have dropped by five this year as compared with the same period last year. The trend is right but I would like the figures to be reduced by more, particularly those for single vehicle accidents which tend to happen late at night.

I have a huge commitment to what I call "roads policing", a term I prefer to "traffic policing" because the traffic corps works not just on traffic duties but on other areas as the need arises. I do not subscribe to the view that we should carry out mandatory alcohol testing two miles outside a town in which there might be serious public order issues at 11 p.m. or 12 midnight on a Saturday. My traffic people have detected significant movement of illicit goods related to other crimes on the roads. Awareness is very important and my director of communications has co-operated in a television series on our traffic police. We focus on getting information out and warning people, advising the public on those areas which endanger people's lives.

Anti-social behaviour is an issue of great concern and is one of my core policing goals. A great deal of anti-social behaviour is fuelled by alcohol. As the Deputy says, it requires a multi-agency approach and is a societal issue. I can provide figures for prosecution for drunkenness in recent years if the members so wish. A considerable amount of the policing commitment, particularly late at night, is directed towards that problem and local managers have to plan for anti-social behaviour issues. I am heartened by successes in recent times, particularly those flowing from the intoxicating liquor legislation enacted last year and this has enabled us to seize alcohol from people who intend to drink on the streets or engage in anti-social behaviour.

Chairman

I will ask the Commissioner some questions on the last two issues raised by Deputy Naughten. The first relates to traffic policing, on which subject the Garda Síochána Inspectorate recently attended a meeting of this committee. Its representatives said 2,600 gardaí were driving on chief's permission. What plans are there to provide proper training for these gardaí? When will automatic plate recognition be introduced?

The delegates from the inspectorate were very complimentary about the relationship between it and the Garda and said that of all the recommendations it had tabled only one had not been introduced. There seems to be great co-operation between the two bodies and that is to be welcomed. It suggested the integration of the traffic corps with the regular police so that they would not operate on parallel tracks. Traffic police would need to be used in other areas when necessary and those in regular policing should be able to switch as necessary.

Anti-social behaviour is a huge problem but ASBOs, which were introduced two years ago, are not being used widely. Does the Commissioner have any plans to make greater use of them? Are they effective?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I have a very good working relationship with the chief inspector, which goes back many years. The one recommendation I did not take on board related to prosecution of offences in the courts. I was not able to take it on board. There was a recommendation that I should no longer utilise superintendents prosecuting in rural areas and there were arrangements with the Director of Public Prosecutions flowing from the Nally report commissioned by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and published in the late 1990s and related to the prosecution of offences. That is an indication of my commitment to change and my commitment to taking on board realistic proposals for policing in this jurisdiction, bearing in mind the culture of this country and the need for policing here. Some of the recommendations I have taken on board, with some modification.

In regard to NPR, we are putting an automated number plate reading system into 104 units throughout the country. As I have stated to other committees where I have appeared, particularly the Joint Committee on Transport and the Committee of Public Accounts, I see it as a significant tool for policing on our roads, particularly in terms of compliance with laws relating to tax, insurance and driving licences. I also see it being utilised in policing the movement of criminals and suspect vehicles and in regard to other issues the Garda Síochána needs to and does address from time to time. In summary, my plan is to have 104 vehicles fitted with an automated number plate reading system on the streets and in other areas, for example, car parks, to address the problem of people parking vehicles there prior to committing a crime, and generally to enhance the work of the Garda Síochána.

On the final issue, I read some negative publicity regarding drivers flowing from the committee's meeting in regard to drivers. We have approximately 2,600 drivers who drive under certain conditions on the authority of a chief superintendent on the basis that they hold a full driving licence. They are restricted in terms of the power of the vehicle they use. We train 600 people each year and we have plans to introduce a short course for those people. I look at the bigger plan. A few weeks after I was appointed Commissioner of the Garda Síochána in November 2007 I commissioned a training review group because I felt the time was right to look at all aspects of training in the Garda Síochána. That training review group has been sitting since. I published that fact at the time. I will publish its findings, with the authority of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

One of the areas on which I look forward to a recommendation is that of driver behaviour. However, I can tell the committee that the regulations allowing people to drive with a chief superintendent's permission are necessary to ensure there are people who can drive a vehicle out patrolling the community at night. The Chief Inspector is on record as saying she would like more vehicles, particularly in rural areas. It is out of necessity that we have the current arrangement and it is our intention to abolish it in time. I cannot take 2,600 police officers off the street today and I have no intention of doing so. As far as I am concerned they are not involved and should not be involved in an aggressive type of driving. They are driving out of necessity. I look forward to the recommendations of the training review group and to progressing the training, particularly in relation to driver training for recruits or for student gardaí. I think I have covered the three areas.

Chairman

What about ASBOs?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Anti-social behaviour orders were introduced under the Criminal Justice Act 2006. In the past two years behaviour warnings were issued in 947 cases in respect of adults and in 644 cases in respect of children. Good behaviour contracts were entered into in a total of 12 cases, and four orders have been obtained through the courts, two in respect of adults and two in respect of children. ASBOs are but one aspect of sanctions against people who engage in anti-social behaviour. My colleague, Chief Superintendent Gerry Blake, will speak for a moment on this issue.

Mr. Gerry Blake

We have the necessary public order legislation. Instead of having to charge people, ASBOs provide a means of keeping them out of the courts and ensuring that any anti-social behaviour is dealt with. In terms of cautioning adults, the incidence is increasing all the time. Following recent discussions with the DPP another seven offences are being added to the current ten to deal with public order issues and ensure that gardaí are out on the street dealing with issues and are not tied up in court. In dealing with some anti-social behaviour we are finding the adult caution very constructive because for some of the people involved it is a once-off indiscretion. Before these were introduced these people would have wound up with a criminal conviction. We find this a very productive system of dealing with this type of behaviour.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

I join my colleagues in welcoming Commissioner Murphy and his colleagues here this afternoon. At this stage in the debate it is difficult to avoid being repetitive but I will try to confine my questions to areas that may not have been covered already. I am on one of the joint policing committees in Tralee and I certainly find it very effective, It gives a sense of shared responsibility for policing between politicians, the Garda Síochána and community representatives and a sense that we should all take responsibility for the policing of our area. Has there been any evaluation of the effectiveness of the pilot projects, given that it is proposed to extend these joint policing committees across the country?

How many gardaí are currently involved in community policing? How many are in Dublin, in Limerick, in rural areas such as Kerry? How many are on foot patrol? The use of bicycles by gardaí does not seem to be as prevalent as it was. Is the Garda promoting the use of bicycles, given that it is quite effective?

There seems to be a very slow take-up with regard to the Garda Reserve. How many people have been recruited? Does the Commissioner favour the concept of a reserve and does he believe having members of the reserve working with the permanent force is effective? If not many people are attracted to the reserve, is it intended to run a campaign to attract extra people? In Kerry, for example, only three people signed up for the Garda Reserve. Perhaps the Commissioner could give the committee an indication of how the numbers break down as between male and female and also of the distribution.

It was my intention to raise the issue of ASBOs before the Chairman raised it. They strike me as not being very effective if only four have been handed down by the courts over a long period although I am aware a number of warnings were given. Is there a reason only four have been handed down?

The Commissioner also spoke about road safety but he did not mention speed cameras. What progress has there been on the speed camera contract? The tender was announced two years ago and the successful contractor a year ago but there do not seem to be any speed cameras on the roads. As it is the responsibility of the Garda Síochána, when can we expect speed cameras to be on the roads? They would lead to a major slowdown of traffic throughout Ireland, though many people may not like them.

Does the Commissioner think a flotilla of nine ships is adequate to police our coastline? County Kerry has 300 miles of coastline and we only appear to intercept a very small percentage of drugs coming into the country. We are used as a transshipment depot for drugs destined for the rest of Europe. What is our capability for intercepting large drugs shipments coming into the country?

I understand the Naval Service cannot operate without the authority of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform or customs officers. Is that correct?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

What is the question?

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

I understand the Naval Service has to carry out joint operations with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform or customs officers and cannot intervene otherwise if it suspects a ship is carrying drugs.

The Commissioner will be aware that Limerick gangs are developing their networks throughout the region, to Tipperary, Clare and north Kerry. Should there not be a regional policy as well as one for Limerick? Competing gangs in the larger towns in the region will soon be carrying out turf wars if their supply chain is not interrupted.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

There are many questions and I will try to deal with them in sequence. I am committed to the concept of joint policing committees. An evaluation of 29 pilot projects was carried out and published by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Dermot Ahern, who also confirmed their continuation. Of the 114 joint policing committees to be rolled out some 62 are now fully active. As Commissioner, I have a role in working with local authorities which take the lead in setting up the committees. There will be forums to give everybody an opportunity to contribute but I would not like them to become garda-bashing or garda-interrogation forums. I want them to be constructive and to be opportunities for people on both sides of the table to identify the issues affecting local communities and to come up with solutions.

There are in excess of 700 people throughout the country dedicated to community policing. Every one of the 14,000 sworn officers of the Garda Síochána and the Garda Reserve are community police officers. I have an ambitious timetable in which to roll out the new model, though we have been involved in community policing since the foundation of the State and in a structured fashion since 1984. It is my intention that there will be up to 1,200 dedicated officers in community policing.

The Deputy asked for a regional breakdown. In the Dublin region the figure is 396, in the eastern region 42, the southern region 135, the south region 47, the western region 53 and the northern region 36, with a total of 709. I am committed to inculcating a culture of community policing among my managers and gardaí who serve the community and to encouraging them to build the necessary partnerships.

One of the questions concerned bikes. When I took over as Commissioner some 315 mounted bikes were in operation and the figure is now 550. The Minister and I launched 150 such bikes outside Store Street Garda station approximately six months ago. They are very helpful, particularly in built up areas where they assist gardaí to get from one place to another very speedily. Everybody wants one but we must adopt a balanced approach. There is no scarcity and I am not aware of any that are not in operation.

The attested figures for the Garda Reserve members stand at 330, with 113 in training. I have ring-fenced €10 million of the Garda budget for 2009 for speed cameras. That is a big commitment in addition to the €27 million set aside for the Tetra system but we are very committed to it and it is hoped the contract will be signed by the end of January 2009. The cameras will be mobile and will complement what is already in place. In the past six months we have launched eight speed camera detection vehicles, newly commissioned by Robot. One is allocated to each of the six regions, Dublin and the other five. Two are at the discretion of Assistant Commissioner Rock, who has full-time responsibility for traffic and roads policing, to target those areas where speeding offences are prevalent or where there are major road traffic accidents. He can look at the bigger picture, identify the trends and dedicate those two vehicles appropriately. Automatic number plate recognition, ANPR, will also have a speed detection capacity. I do not suggest the Deputy was implying otherwise but the Garda Síochána has a huge commitment to roads and traffic policing.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

I assure the Garda Commissioner — if he needs assurance — that cameras are very much in evidence on the Naas dual carriageway, almost on a daily basis.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I inform Deputy Flanagan that this applies to many other roads also. We do not go behind the door in terms of policing roads and have published details on our website of areas that are prone to collisions and speeding. A person caught in such areas should have been aware that we are out there. As I said before, it is not the intention of the Garda to catch people speeding or drink driving; it is the intention of the Garda to stop people speeding or drink driving.

Regarding the policing of the coastline, the Deputy is asking me to stray into other areas relating to the resources of the Naval Service and Customs and Excise. We have a great working relationship with these bodies. The Naval Service has a specific remit relating to the coastline and significant seizures were made off the coast of west Cork in the past two years. Co-operation between the Garda Síochána, the Naval Service and Customs and Excise is first class. There is a task force arrangement that works very effectively. I will let the Naval Service speak for itself in terms of resourcing and equipment but any time the Garda Síochána calls on the service, operations are excellent. The two bodies work together closely, day in, and day out, and the working relationship is excellent. The Naval Service has always come up trumps and played its part, as evidenced by recent seizures — particularly one that involved a difficult and tricky operation. I cannot go into more detail on that as people are before the courts.

Regarding regional policy, I mentioned the regional structure in place. An assistant commissioner is in charge of the southern region, with responsibility for Cork and Limerick. There is no question that the Deputy is correct about the connection between Dublin criminals, Limerick criminals and those based abroad. Our intelligence-led operations target those people every day. It is important that we get intelligence and take action against such individuals. This was evident in the past 12 months when, in an operation involving our colleagues from Northern Ireland and the Netherlands, we intercepted 27 firearms and €10 million worth of drugs. That was called Operation Bench. People are now serving time due to another operation, Operation B, which was based in the area mentioned. It involved people planning and engaging in importing considerable amounts of arms into the country. The trials in that case have concluded and people have been convicted and sentenced. I will ask my colleague, Mr. Callinan, the deputy commissioner, to speak about anti-social behaviour orders.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I thank the Chairman and I will be brief. As my colleagues suggested, there is a close relationship between the adult cautioning scheme and anti-social behaviour warnings. It is no harm to reflect on the figures again. In 2008 we issued 502 adult behaviour warnings and had 530 cases relating to children. There were eight good behaviour contracts, four civil orders obtained in the courts relating to adults and four relating to children.

One of the advantages of working with joint policing committees is the fact that one is in a position to review anti-social behaviour and address most of the issues communities have. Part of the difficulty is that engaging inside the courts will alienate the recipients of orders. The desired effect of going to the courts for an order was not achieved in one of the cases in Dublin. It would be unfair of me to comment in more detail on that. We work with joint policing committees to try to solve problems, rather than move them elsewhere and this is why so few orders are obtained in the courts. However, the numbers relating to adult cautioning and anti-social behaviour warnings are significant.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

I welcome the Commissioner and his colleagues and I apologise for missing the presentation. I was detained at another meeting and have since read the presentation. I will confine myself to a few questions.

Am I correct in understanding that any cut in overtime would have a disproportionate impact on policing? Is the Commissioner satisfied that he will not be put in this position? I note what the Commissioner said on civilianisation but it was intended to move gardaí from existing desk duties to policing duties. I understand from parliamentary questions that, so far, civilianisation has meant the recruitment of civilians, not the displacement of gardaí to policing duties. Whether this has happened for union reasons or industrial relations reasons, does the Commissioner feel it is unrealistic that desk-bound gardaí and other gardaí should be devoted to front line duties rather than duties civilians could carry out?

On gun crime, which dominates the concerns of many citizens, a week ago there were three shootings in my constituency. One of them was fatal and the other two were near-fatal. Next Saturday there is a meeting in my constituency about a young man named Robert Delaney who answered a call at 6 a.m. a couple of months ago and was shot in the face. He was seriously wounded and the public meeting will be held in the Plaza Hotel on Saturday morning. I am fully aware that the Garda has been scrupulous and attentive in trying to put together evidence for a conviction. The young man in question had no connection with any sort of crime.

I get the impression that the Commissioner and his senior colleagues are lukewarm about intercept evidence being made admissible in court. Do they have reservations about this? I published a Bill on the matter some time ago and the Minister said, in a famous quote, that it would alert criminals. After the tragedy in Garryowen he said he would publish a Bill on the matter. It seems that gardaí feel this type of evidence would be as much a hindrance as a help in some cases and I would like some clarity on this before the Bill is introduced.

I also want to inquire about the PULSE system, as raised by Deputy Naughten. A recent report of the Garda Ombudsman Commission suggested that, as I understood it, as the PULSE system is currently operated one cannot track input information to a particular garda. I think this arose in the case of the accident that led to the death of young Derek O'Toole in Lucan village. Remarks were made by the Ombudsman about the operation of the PULSE system subsequent to this.

I welcome the remarks made by the Commissioner about community policing. I am not sure I have been always ad idem with the senior ranks of the Garda Síochána on this issue. Senior gardaí have often responded to me that anywhere the Garda Síochána interfaces with a civilian is community policing. Community policing is a definite dimension of policing which is badly needed in areas such as my constituency and many others where the visible presence of gardaí patrolling estates is essential to combatting many of the issues discussed here such as anti-social behaviour and more serious crime.

Where it is resourced, working and allowed to work consistently it has been an unalloyed success. However, I get the impression that the attitude at a senior level of the Garda Síochána is that it is not practical in the 21st century and we will never again have gardaí on the beat in estates saying "hello" to the young fellows. I would like to hear the Commissioner's comments on this. I welcome what he stated about the 700 to 1,200 gardaí in the new model. I am not sure I fully understand the new model but I look forward to learning about it. It is an important dimension of policing.

All politics is local and given that a number of soft balls have been lobbed at the Commissioner on constituency matters I would like to hold up my end. The success the Garda Síochána had in Limerick is considerable given the challenge faced. I was there recently and I visited the Midlands Prison. This success comes at a price in terms of the Garda resources devoted to it. I am glad to see the Garda resources devoted to it and the Commissioner is right to reach for the Tallaght figures because we have a similar population and a little more than one third of the number of gardaí. The track record shows that in terms of population, complexity of policing, crime levels and social make-up and mix Tallaght is under-policed.

For six or seven years, we have been promised rebuilding of the only Garda station we have. Deputy Treacy will not appreciate or believe that we have only one Garda station for 79,000 people. This would not happen in east Galway.

Deputy Noel Treacy

It must be a big station.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

This is my point. It is entirely inadequate for the policing of the region. It is so inadequate that several rooms have been taken in the adjacent hotel to allow the gardaí some space to do their job. Are we a victim of the new economic circumstances in that all of the gardaí in Tallaght will be in hotel rooms before the recession lifts?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I dealt with the issue of overtime when I spoke about the budgetary figures prior to Deputy Rabbitte's arrival at the meeting. The estimated spend in 2008 was €107 million and the actual spend was somewhat more. The estimated spend for this year, and the amount of money I have been able to allocate within my budget, is €80 million. It follows that there must be a significant rearrangement. For me, it is all about prioritising policing and ensuring that front-line policing — which is what the people want — and the visibility required are maintained. I will speak about community policing. As I stated before the Committee of Public Accounts, if this means stopping other projects during the year I will make these decisions. I am prepared to run with what I have and prioritise those areas where we need to have firm strong policing and I mentioned the hotspots previously.

With regard to civilian staffing——

Chairman

Before the Commissioner replies further I must state that there is a vote in the Dáil Chamber and we must adjourn for a few minutes.

Sitting suspended at 4.55 p.m. and resumed at 5.25 p.m.

Chairman

I ask the Commissioner to hold his replies to Deputy Rabbitte's questions to give him the opportunity to get here. In the meantime I call Senator Regan.

Senator Eugene Regan

I appreciate the time the Commissioner has given to this committee and the depth of information he has provided on every issue raised. His responses have informed us. Our concern is that he has the resources and the legislative framework within which to fulfil his task successfully.

Community policing is fundamental to the work of the Garda and the Commissioner has indicated the intended numbers of community police. Are current budgetary constraints leading to a reduction in the number of community gardaí in some localities? I have information that in my area, Dún Laoghaire, there has been a reduction, but perhaps the Commissioner can disabuse me of that notion.

The issue of Garda time being used up in court arose in the context of the Intoxicating Liquor Bill, one of a number of Bills rushed through the Oireachtas before the summer. Of course, in criminal cases the evidence must be put by the gardaí involved in the investigation. However, I understand that according to the legislation governing the District Court, a garda must be present in court to consent or object to a licence application. Sometimes there could be a large number of gardaí, sometimes senior gardaí, in the District Court, tied up with these applications. More often than not all they have to do is say there are no objections to the licence from the Garda Síochána.

If the legislation was changed and it provided for a designated garda to be present from a division designated by the Commissioner, he or she could handle applications relating to licences. Perhaps then, in the case of an objection, a garda from the area where the licensed premises is situated could attend. We could effect a change in that area. It is our business to change the legislation and reduce the requirement on gardaí. While we must comply with the legislation and ensure gardaí are there if required, a change in the legislation in this regard would not impair justice being done in the District Court, but would save significant Garda time. I introduced an amendment to that effect to the Intoxicating Liquor Bill, but it was not considered in that rushed legislation. Would the Commissioner consider that type of measure of assistance in reducing the numbers of gardaí required to attend courts? It would be easy for the Oireachtas to introduce such a measure in forthcoming legislation.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

The concept is worth considering. In the Dublin metropolitan region, we have a considerable length of time to introduce cases and have introduced a court presenter system. However, I would have to look more closely at the idea before I could comment in detail on its legal implications. I will reflect on the suggestion and perhaps the chief superintendent, Mr. Blake, may comment on it.

With regard to community policing in the Dún Laoghaire area, I understand one garda sergeant and seven gardaí are dedicated exclusively to it. Community policing falls under the concept of prioritising and targeting those areas where it is necessary to have visible policing. My instructions to local managers are to do that and I rely on them to do so. I agree we are in a new environment and cannot spend money willy nilly. We must manage our resources and put them into the areas where they are most needed.

The question of time spent in court is a significant issue for us. In Dublin we have introduced a court presenter system which I have been asked about frequently at committees like this. I must balance the effectiveness of the system with training gardaí, because there is no better training ground than the courts, as the Senator will know from his legal training. I like to see probationer gardaí, for example, attend court for their first ten cases. I hope they are well challenged in court on those cases so that they learn what is necessary to establish proof in cases and bring evidence effectively to court. Therefore, there is a balance required. All in all, it is my policy to explore every area that will reduce the length of Garda time spent in court.

I welcome the comments made on the fixed charge penalty system for road traffic offences. This measure relieves Garda time in court and I welcome its extension, through the Intoxicating Liquor Act, to public order offences. Perhaps, Mr. Blake would like to add his comments on these issues.

Mr. Gerry Blake

The Senator was correct that there is no need for a number of gardaí to attend court for the renewal of licences. We are dealing with that currently in the Dublin metropolitan area and have a licence sergeant who attends court for the annual renewal of licences in September. Unless an issue arises, he deals with all the applications for the area.

Following up on what the Commissioner said, the court presenter system will be extended with the new court complex at Parkgate Street. Currently, it involves only a number of stations. This was outside the control of the Commissioner because the Courts Service did not have the facilities to allow the court presenters to operate. We will see a huge reduction in the number of gardaí attending courts when the system is extended to all stations in the Dublin metropolitan region.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

It is only when there are trials and hearings that the gardaí involved in a case have to attend court. When I was talking about probationary gardaí I was speaking in the context of giving my young people the experience they would require in court.

Senator Eugene Regan

With regard to licensing laws, the legislation contains specific requirements. It was in that area that I felt we could intervene and, perhaps, make the Commissioner's job a little easier.

Deputy Noel Treacy

I warmly welcome Commissioner Murphy and his colleagues from the Garda Síochána and I pay tribute to him for his outstanding leadership, his management of the force since he took over and his bravery over the years in the roles he has discharged. I pay tribute, through him, to all members of the force for the outstanding service they deliver to the people on behalf of this sovereign Parliament. Public representatives deeply appreciate it.

I am a member of a joint policing committee which is working very well. They allow for huge interaction between elected members of town councils, county councils and the Oireachtas. We are able to identify where there are problems. We have a better understanding of the role of the Garda Síochána and it has a better understanding of our needs and of community requirements. We also interact, at committee level, with all the State agencies to ensure that police services have a much better impact on the ground. Community policing is working very well. Gardaí, including officers on push bikes, are going into areas where they would not have gone in the past. Innovations are certainly having an impact in my area and I am very pleased with that.

The strength of the force is approximately 14,500. What are the plans for recruitment in 2009? New Garda divisions were recently established. They are practical, positive and sensible and will lead to a better use of resources. Some towns which had district headquarters under the old system no longer have that privilege. Some towns lost resources in recent years. In my constituency, for example, there are one or two towns whose small numbers of gardaí are subsumed in the greater demands of Galway city. This is a problem for rural east Galway which I hope can be addressed in the future.

I note that the Garda has one person operating in the maritime analysis centre in Lisbon. Are other members of the Garda working with Europol, Interpol, the UN or elsewhere across the world? If so, how many are doing so? Gardaí have done an outstanding job over the years and it is important for Ireland that we have such engagement at international level.

Can the Commissioner comment on the progress being made in collaboration with the PSNI? I believe much progress has been made and I salute the Commissioner for that. It is critically important to ensure that we eliminate all types of crime in all parts of the island. I acknowledge that this is a sensitive area but I ask him to refer to it when he replies to my queries.

Deputy Deenihan referred to drugs and gun related crime, which is a major challenge for society. In south and south east Galway, we are now becoming victims of crime lords from Limerick city. Small rural towns where people enjoyed a nice quality of life are now being disturbed by a criminal element which is exploiting vulnerable people. As a society, nation, Government, Parliament and as citizens we have a serious responsibility to co-operate with the Garda Síochána and other State agencies to eliminate the drug scourge and gun crime once and for all. This problem needs to be tackled in a strong way. The Garda must put its élite members, along with the Army Ranger wing and others, into a dual effort to eliminate the problem in targeted places throughout the country and over a targeted period.

There have been several sad "disappeared" cases in different parts of the country, particularly involving young women. How stand those files and is there any possibility of progress on them? Co-operation between agencies has been good. The Customs and Excise legislation which we passed some years ago gives equal powers to Customs and Excise officers, the Army and the Garda to pursue people they believe to be carrying illegal product or to be engaged in criminal activity. I am sure this legislation has been advantageous to the Garda by ensuring that other agencies can assist them.

The European Union must address the difficulty we face as a small island with an extensive coastline, as well as a land frontier. Many European countries do not have this problem. Given the existence of Europol and Interpol, can the European Union give greater assistance to all police services in eliminating the crime lords who use marine resources to purvey illegal drugs across the Union?

Chairman

Deputy Treacy asked about cross-Border co-operation. There is wide recognition of the considerable co-operation between the PSNI and the Garda in the Paul Quinn case. There should be similar cross-Border co-operation at every level. I understand that co-operation is only possible at superintendent or equivalent level. Can a mechanism be put in place to facilitate co-operation at the lower ranks in both forces? I am aware that there has been limited secondment from the Garda to the PSNI and vice versa. Are there plans to develop and extend this practice? Can inducements be given to members of both forces to volunteer for such exchanges?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

A number of issues have been raised and I will try to deal with them. I thank Deputy Treacy for his kind comments. I appreciate them and I thank him for his support of the Garda Síochána.

I support the joint policing committees and I am pleased to see them being rolled out in 114 areas. Deputy Treacy asked about recruitment in 2009. We are coming to the end of a period of extended promotion. In the past three or four years we recruited approximately 500 gardaí per year and lost approximately 400 through retirement and natural wastage. We were slowly building up the strength of the force to the present membership of more than 14,000. Following discussions with the Minister, the intake for the last quarter of 2008 was reduced to 100 and recruitment for the four quarters of 2009 will, therefore, be 100 per quarter. The first 100 recruits will enter the force in the next week or two. We will recruit 400 gardaí in 2009.

Deputy Noel Treacy

Excellent.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

That is my plan subject to any other issues that might arise in terms of the financial situation.

I thank the Deputy for his support on the boundary changes. The rationale was to make them coterminous with the local authorities and to assist that aspect of joint policing committees where people, public representatives, Garda managers, local authority representatives and other key stakeholders can sit down together to address the issues. Someone mentioned about politics being local, as members of the committee would know better than anybody. Many policing issues are very local. It is through JPCs and other fora like local task forces that that can be enhanced.

The question about liaison officers is combined with the Deputy's later question about an island nation. We have an extensive programme of international liaison. As I am speaking off the top of my head having made a few notes, the Deputy will forgive me if I have not covered everyone. We have a liaison officer in Madrid who is very active. We have one in The Hague, one in Europol, one in Interpol, one in London and one in Paris. I do not have them spread around the world as would America or a bigger country but I have them in those key locations where we need to interact with local policing and authorities to ensure we are in there early in developing relationships so that, particularly on a police-to-police basis, the intelligence comes to us first hand and in real time.

The Deputy mentioned that we had a liaison officer in the maritime observation centre. Our colleagues in the customs also have a liaison officer in that agency. The successes flowing from it are significant, particularly regarding our island nation status.

Regarding the PSNI and our cross-Border relationship, co-operation is ongoing at all levels. Local officers at sergeant and garda rank, and sergeant and constable rank are in regular contact in addressing issues day in, day out, night and day. Of course at times formal arrangements need to kick in, particularly regarding the transfer of evidence, the execution of warrants or the service of summonses. That is because of our two-state status and we need to address those formal arrangements. At every level these arrangements are in place. The investigation into the Paul Quinn murder and what happened on the ground there, particularly in south Armagh with Garda officers assisting, was a considerable breakthrough and could not have happened ten or 12 years ago. There is a considerable amount of that level of co-operation ongoing.

Both the PSNI Chief Constable, Sir Hugh Orde, and I speak about it on a regular basis because we meet regularly, as do many more of my officers. One of the things I did since becoming Commissioner was to form all the Border areas into a region. In other words, I moved Louth, which had not been in the northern region, into the northern region. The northern region now extends from the tip of Donegal to Carlingford Lough. In terms of the co-operation the Chairman mentioned, the significance is that one regional commissioner has full responsibility for the Border area and links and liaises directly with his counterpart on the other side. All those arrangements have been put in place for the smooth running of policing on the island.

It would take me a long time to mention the many other interactions such as training, annual seminars, targeted joint operations etc. I can assure members of the committee that that is ongoing. A classic example is the major case of the southern aspect of the Northern Bank robbery and the trial in Cork. Both forces co-operated significantly in the investigations into these matters. Naturally enough it is sub judice and I cannot speak in any more depth on that.

The Chairman asked about secondments and police exchanges. It would be appropriate for me to explain the background. Arising from the Patten commission and the intergovernmental agreement signed in 2002 it was envisaged that we would potentially have police exchanges, secondments and lateral entry for the Police Service of Northern Ireland and the Garda Síochána. The exchanges have worked very effectively. Many people have gone up for short-term exchanges and many people have come down from Northern Ireland to the Garda Síochána in a raft of areas. Those police exchanges, which were envisaged to be short in nature lasting approximately six to eight weeks, in training areas, fingerprinting and different disciplines, have worked very effectively.

The next level of secondments is where officers from either force would be seconded to the other police force with full policing powers. A lengthy period of discussion took place with the staff associations and with the Police Federation for Northern Ireland to hammer out the appropriate terms, which have been agreed. Both the Chief Constable, Sir Hugh Orde, and I advertised positions in our respective forces contemporaneously before Christmas. The interest shown has been somewhat disappointing in that very few people have applied. We are now looking at other ways of moving that on. Lateral entry of course is a different matter and no developments have taken place in that. Lateral entry means that a police officer can join either force by resigning from the force in which he or she is.

That is just a snapshot. There is more detail. I have given members of the committee an idea of where we are. Both the Chief Constable and I are very committed to endeavouring to ensure that the secondment process, which is the second leg of the journey, goes ahead. We will work on that again to see if any modification can be made. For mutual benefit reasons it was focused at superintendent rank.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Is there any arrangement with the neighbouring island for recruitment between forces to allow, for example, Irish people working in the Metropolitan Police Service in London who want to return to Ireland to work in the force here?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

There is no formal arrangement. Naturally enough people are entitled to apply for either force and there have been some instances. The PSNI is a different matter. Particularly at senior officer level it has arrangements. There is a legislative issue that will need to be addressed. It is envisaged senior officers from either force will be able to apply for positions in time. We have not got to that stage. I know the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is concerned with that.

I would like to return to the issue of the missing women. As I have said, I would not like any families to think they have been forgotten. For that reason, I set up a cold case review team along with my predecessor when I was the deputy commissioner in charge of operations, the position Deputy Commissioner Martin Callinan holds now. It is euphemistically called a cold case review team to review old cases. Naturally enough it cannot review every case immediately. However, it is working through a programme with considerable success in many cases. It is a real issue. The issue of missing persons generally is one we are addressing. I am glad that one of the projects of the chief inspector is to consider how our ability and effectiveness in dealing with missing persons can be enhanced. I have not received her report yet. There are suggestions of introducing things like the amber alert, which is a system used in the United States. I am looking forward to her recommendations which I will treat very earnestly and seriously as soon as they come to hand. I believe I have addressed the Deputy's questions.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

My ranking on this committee twice slipped today. Will the Chairman allow the Commissioner to answer my questions now? I have been here for——

Chairman

Okay.

Senator Denis O’Donovan

I do not mind waiting.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I have dealt with Deputy Rabbitte's first question on overtime. The next matter he raised was civilian staffing and I spoke at length on this matter earlier. At the end of 2003 the ratio of civilian staff to gardaí was 11.2%. As of now it is 6.87%, which is 1:7. I stated here and at a previous meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts that I would like to see this reduced to 1:4 or 1:3.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

My question was slightly different. What is the extent of displacement of desk-bound gardaí?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

It is significant. I was asked a similar question earlier and I stated that I did not have the numbers with me. My focus is to reduce it to 1:1 if it is at all possible. It has not been possible to do so. We began with a significant programme on finance officers. Every time a civilian is recruited, especially for desk-bound jobs, I would like to see gardaí released. Of course there are jobs which cannot be done without police training but they are not in such numbers as to keep many gardaí from the streets. I do not have the numbers to hand but gardaí have been released.

I am extremely conscious of the Robert Delaney case and I visited Tallaght last week for a first-hand briefing on this recent killing. Deputy Rabbitte acknowledged this and I appreciate the fact that he used the word "scrupulous". The gardaí there under the superintendent and chief superintendent are focused on endeavouring to bring the perpetrators of the two crimes committed to justice.

This question was set in the context of stating that Garda management was lukewarm with regard to intercept evidence. The debate on the use of intercept evidence takes place in all types of policing arenas. The first leg of the journey is to introduce what is envisaged in this intrusive type of surveillance where the police force with the power of the law behind it can do certain things with regard to bugging and placing devices. This is the model introduced in the UK some time ago when it was faced with a considerable threat arising from the new arrangements which apply with regard to fundamentalism.

The jury is out with regard to the second leg, which is direct intercept. No more than any other police chief, I am anxious to maintain the balance of confidence and integrity which exists between obtaining information and intelligence and the risk of compromising court cases. It is not a matter of being lukewarm. I see it as an extremely important tool and I make applications to the Minister day in and day out for warrants to obtain intercept evidence. A debate is taking place in police circles. The former British Prime Minister asked a committee to examine this area and the neighbouring island has not made a decision on this yet. For us, the first leg of the journey is to introduce legislation on surveillance and see where it brings us, how effective it will be and take it from there.

The Deputy also referred to the PULSE system and the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission. The PULSE system has a full audit trail. There is no doubt that when something happens, the inquisitive nature of members of the force — I have been in policing for 40 years and I am extremely inquisitive by nature because we must find out information and establish facts — means people with legitimate access to PULSE use it to see what happened and who was involved. Often, this might lead to information being passed on to people in another station many miles away. It is out of interest to see whether they can be helpful. We must have a balance to ensure the PULSE system is not abused for leaks to the media or other such acts.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

I welcome the Commissioner's remarks in this regard because something such as this may have happened in the case I am discussing. However, I thought the problem was more that garda X logs on at 10 a.m. but thereafter, because he or she does not log off or however the system operates, Y number of gardaí use it, so if one is trying to track a matter to a particular garda, he or she will state he or she logged in but that several colleagues logged in afterwards and it was not necessarily that person at all.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

If this is happening, these people are not operating the system according to regulations. As Deputy Rabbitte will appreciate, I am not out checking on matters such as this. It is a matter for managers. Everybody has an access code and the system must be worked in accordance with regulations. It would be regrettable if this was happening but I do not think it does to any great extent. I am sure people can be careless and that in a force of 14,000 not everybody steps up to the plate in the way they should.

I was considering the larger issue of the audit trail and the system has a full audit trail. Going back to what I stated on people entering information on PULSE, one is only as good as the human frailties which might apply in this situation. However, it is not intended to be used the way outlined by Deputy Rabbitte and it is not my policy that it is. I rely on my managers, sergeants, inspectors and superintendents to ensure compliance with the regulations which exist.

With regard to community policing we have had models for a long time in Tallaght, north inner-city Dublin and Thomastown and more recently on the Inishowen peninsula. In our corporate strategy for 2007 to 2009 we committed to examine this area. Yesterday, we launched a new model with ten core pillars. These include to have Garda community partnerships in place, which recognises that the problems faced by the Garda Síochána cannot be solved without the assistance of the community; to have enforcement, in other words to be actively involved in the prevention of crime which means taking firm action where appropriate; to engage in problem solving with the community; to be involved in crime prevention and reduction where it is appropriate; to be accountable to the community; to have visibility, which is a core aspect; and to have accessibility since the public should be able to identify with the local community gardaí and know they can contact them because we need the type of collaborative engagement which I see as necessary for all stakeholders in community policing; and to have empowerment which I see as essential to ensuring ownership, participation and shared responsibility exist at every level.

The visibility, accessibility and collaborative engagement practices of community gardaí which we are rolling out will improve their response capability. A key aspect is to ensure the best possible response capability is given to our people. This strategy will involve increasing the number of people dedicated to community policing. Community policing does not work effectively if the dedicated people are not working on it full-time. On occasion in certain hot spots, local managers who were under pressure because of a number of murder investigations had to take people from community policing and involve them in investigations. I do not support this unless it is necessary. I want dedicated community police officers doing their job in a soft sense and also in a firm sense. I do not know if it was an intelligent guess or if it was predictable, but I expected a question on Limerick and Tallaght.

Chairman

We are getting to the nub of the issue now.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

It is a serious matter. We had difficulties in Limerick and as managers of the force we reacted to those difficulties. I appreciate where the Deputy is coming from with regard to Tallaght. Since 1 January 2004 the strength of the Tallaght division has been increased by 102. This complements what I have said with regard to many other divisions and is a result of the increased strength of the force overall.

I rely on my managers and divisional officers to make the decisions as to where they need to deploy their people. However, that does not mean that tonight, or when the shootings took place the other day, the other support units, like the special detective unit, the emergency response unit, the organised crime unit, the national bureau of criminal investigation and the task forces do not supplement and complement policing in Tallaght. I appreciate the Deputy's view and he and I have discussed the issues on a few social occasions. I respect the Deputy's position, but he should also appreciate mine. I do not have unlimited resources, but endeavour through working through my people to use a scientific and human model of deployment to put gardaí in place.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Thank you.

Senator Denis O’Donovan

I welcome the Commissioner and am proud another man from Cork holds the position of chief of the Garda. The people of west Cork are proud of the significant work he does.

Politicians and the Garda are sometimes criticised, but as someone who has been in public life almost a quarter of a century, I have the greatest respect for the work of the Garda, which is often done in difficult situations. For example, the Garda must take credit for the significant reduction in road deaths here in the past year as a result of its policing. One death is a death too many, but the efforts of the Garda in reducing road deaths in recent years are often passed over. I acknowledge their efforts in this regard.

I have two or three questions for the Commissioner. Can he or his team confirm that the Garda is keeping up with international best practice with regard to training and the fight against crime? Given that drugs, gun and gangland crime are intrinsically linked, is there adequate protection of our coastlines from major international traffickers? The Commissioner mentioned in his presentation that we had two significant and frighteningly large cocaine hauls off the area I represent. In the haul in Dunlough Bay in July 2008, which was probably a bit fortuitous because of weather conditions, a huge shipment of drugs was seized. More recently, a second shipment was seized at Castletownbere. I am unsure of which was the larger haul, but each haul was valued at more than €1 billion.

I have expressed the view at county council level and at various other levels throughout my public and political career that what has happened in recent years replicates what has happened throughout our history. I was born on the shores of Bantry Bay and remember as a teenager seeing unusual yacht activity on my way home from a dance at 2 a.m. or 3 a.m. I am also aware from stories I have heard locally that such activity has been going on over the years. I realise it is impossible for the Garda to police all these nooks and crannies. Counties Cork and Kerry have a significant length of coastline and hundreds of unlit and remote piers and slipways.

I hope the two significant seizures in Cork will send out a message internationally. However, I have no doubt the south-west coast has been seen in the past as a soft target and easy access point. I am unsure where Garda jurisdiction ends, but could the Garda work with Customs and Excise, the Naval Service and, possibly, police authorities throughout Europe on surveillance? Are there adequate patrols and surveillance of our coastline?

The Commissioner mentioned that the Maritime Analysis and Operations Centre — Narcotics, based in Lisbon, was instrumental recently in logging and tracking a vessel from South America. It intercepted the vessel almost 200 miles off Mizen Head and took it into custody in Castletownbere. The court case is sub judice. Is there sufficient surveillance and protection? While the drugs being seized may not be destined for the Irish market, they are, inevitably, used in London or Europe. I am concerned there may not be sufficient surveillance.

Fishermen and trawlermen say publicly they have seen unusual activity when out working. I wonder then whether we have sufficient surveillance of our coastline to send out a message to international, well-organised crime gangs that use our coast to ship huge consignments of drugs. Is there anything the committee or the Government can do to bolster security along our coastline, rather than rely on weather conditions or somebody putting diesel in a petrol engine or international surveillance to bring shipments to our attention? I am concerned about this.

With regard to drugs in general, the Garda has made significant seizures in recent years. I welcome this, whether it is heroin, cocaine, cannabis or whatever. Unfortunately for society, these drug hauls often include the seizure of guns and modern weapons. A young garda told me recently gardaí are now given training on the sophisticated types of guns criminals have had for, probably, the past decade. It is good that training is keeping pace with what is happening. The fight against crime is an ongoing fight. The Garda has done significant work in Limerick and many serious criminals have been removed from the scene because of its work. I welcome and encourage that effort.

I hope the Commissioner can inform me of the situation with regard to the protection of our coastline. Can more be done in that regard? I have serious concerns that the two drug seizures mentioned were not the only ones and that criminals have escaped. That is probably not the fault of anyone. These criminals are sophisticated and can move in and out without detection. Activity along the south-west coast and in my area over the past 15 to 20 years indicates those drug shipments were not the first.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

It is always pleasant to hear about west Cork and I would not mind if the Senator had more to say. I thank him for his kind words. The area he mentioned and the threat to our coastline are of significant importance. Besides the Garda Síochána, there are two other key stakeholders, Customs and Excise and the Naval Service. The local community is also an important stakeholder, and its members, including trawlermen, can be the eyes and ears for the security of our country. While I do not want to harp on about community policing, the concept is focused on trying to build up relationships that work in that regard.

The Garda senior management team is endeavouring to provide our members with the best equipment, opportunities and training possible. Some 12 months ago we set up a crime training faculty in the Garda College for senior investigating officers and detectives to ensure best practice in policing through the world — "best practice" as applied to policing is a relative term appropriate to each country — is to the forefront of everything we do. We want to ensure we have the equipment and technology required. It is a question of co-operation and working with communities to gather information. I cannot go into the details of recent cases because they are sub judice. When Ireland, a relatively small country, interacts with bigger nations such as the United States, the United Kingdom, Germany and France, we are on trial. I was delighted to acknowledge the work of the three services involved in a recent case into which I cannot go. Suffice it to say the way we communicated the message made it clear that Ireland was not a soft touch and that we could do what we were asked to do with regard to the Naval Service, Customs and Excise and the Garda Síochána. We can make arrests in very difficult circumstances and seizures along the coastline. While I cannot have a garda in every inlet and on every headland, overlooking the scenic parts of southern Ireland, I am happy with the progress of the network which we are trying to develop to gather the information and intelligence we need to inform the forces of law and order to make interceptions. We can tap into the technology available to bigger nations once we have gained credibility. I am happy that all three services have gained that credibility. The technology is designed internationally to ensure those seeking to bring vast amounts of deadly drugs into Ireland, the United Kingdom and other European countries will be detected. While I appreciate the Senator’s comments, I assure both him and the Chairman that we are working closely with key agencies in neighbouring countries and countries further afield in making detections.

Chairman

I thank the Commissioner for his presentation. I was glad to hear his opening remarks on community policing. I read a report in a newspaper in the past two days on the success achieved in Coolock with the community policing model, in which I have been interested for a long time. I am delighted at the commitment shown to it. I also thank the Commissioner's colleagues. The committee thanks all members of the Garda Síochána for the tremendous job they do. We have had a forthright discussion which will help us in our future deliberations.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.15 p.m. until 3.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 11 February 2009.