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Joint Committee on Public Petitions and the Ombudsmen debate -
Thursday, 15 Jun 2023

Ombudsman for Children's Annual Report 2021: Office of the Ombudsman for Children

The next items of business on the agenda are our engagement with the Ombudsman for Children's office and our consideration of public petitions.

I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Before we hear from our witnesses, I propose that we publish the opening statement on the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed.

On behalf of the committee, I extend a warm welcome to Dr. Niall Muldoon, Ombudsman for Children; Dr. Carmel Corrigan, head of participation and rights education; and Ms Ciara Gill, policy officer, Office of the Ombudsman for Children. Dr. Muldoon will make the opening statement for approximately ten minutes. We will then have questions and comments from Members. Each Member will have ten minutes. Members may speak more than once. If we keep to the timeline, everybody should get in for a second or a third round of questions.

I invite Dr. Muldoon to make his opening statement.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

I thank the committee for the invitation to discuss our work and, in particular, the reports of 2021 and 2022. As you said, a Chathaoirligh, I am joined by Dr. Carmel Corrigan and Ms Ciara Gill. As the committee will be aware, the Ombudsman for Children's office was established in 2004 by the Ombudsman for Children Act 2002. I am the second Ombudsman for Children. I was appointed in 2015 by President Higgins and reappointed for a second and final time in 2021. The office is an independent statutory body with two main roles: to deal with complaints made by or on behalf of children about the actions of public organisations, and to promote the rights and welfare of children under 18 living in Ireland. I will now outline some of the work my office has completed in 2021 and 2022.

Our annual report for 2021 was entitled Resilience Tested. That title reflected the challenges faced by children, families and public services in 2021 to keep going in the face of restrictions and lockdowns. In that year, 2,126 complaints were made to the Ombudsman for Children's office, which was a 79% increase on the previous year. Of those complaints, 908 related specifically to Covid issues such as restrictions in schools, uncertainty around the leaving certificate, face masks and supports for children with disabilities. Education was again the subject of most complaints to the Ombudsman for Children's office, OCO, accounting for 53% of the total complaints. Bullying accounted for 10% of those education-related complaints.

Our 2021 annual report also included stories of some of the children on whose behalf we worked in that year, including the story of James Jnr. and Rosie, whose family were finally moved to a permanent house after living in substandard emergency accommodation for three years, and whose parents say those children are now like "new children". We also heard the story of 12-year-old Ella, who has dyslexia and who finally received a laptop for her schoolwork after very many delays, and how her case led to training being provided in order that no other child is impacted by a similar issue.

In 2021, we also published a significant investigation report, called No End In Site, which detailed the findings of an investigation of living conditions at a particular Traveller halting site. The local authority has since engaged with the families involved about their housing needs and has taken significant steps to improve the living conditions of the families on the site.

During 2021, we also participated in a project organised by the European Network of Ombudspersons for Children and UNICEF about the impact of Covid-19 on children's rights. We carried out what is called a child rights impact assessment to determine the impact of school closures on children's rights. It showed the negative impact those closures had on children as well as the lack of consideration given to children and their rights in the decisions made that impacted them.

We engaged with a number of legislative and policy developments throughout the year. They included proposals around the admission of children to, and their treatment in, inpatient mental health facilities contained in the general scheme of the mental health (amendment) Bill 2021; the consideration given to children in the Birth Information and Tracing Bill 2022; the development of the new national family justice system; and the review of the Equality Acts.

As visits to the office were not permitted during 2021, we delivered our children's rights workshops to 405 children remotely, through Zoom. Six transition year students participated in online work experience with us during that year.

Our newly established youth advisory panel, YAP, met a total of nine times during 2021, and all those meetings were held on Zoom. The YAP engaged in a range of work over the year and its input was invaluable. It provided advice and input on the development of the OCO's children's report to the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child. It also identified priorities for the office's forthcoming strategic plan for 2022 to 2024. The YAP identified the issue of period poverty as one it wanted to highlight and, with our support, wrote to politicians, policymakers and schools to highlight that issue. Deputy Bríd Smith raised a parliamentary question in response to that letter. Raising the issue has also resulted in our office changing its environment by providing free period products in all our office toilets.

During 2021, we decided to take a broader look at how Covid-19 had impacted children in the long term and how we could use our influence to make positive change. We decided to focus on child poverty and child homelessness. A Better Normal was an initiative to eliminate child poverty and eradicate child homelessness and it came out of this process. In it we sought a cross-party, time-limited Oireachtas joint committee to examine these issues further with children's rights as a primary concern. A Dáil debate on A Better Normal took place on 23 September 2021. We continue to call for the elimination of child homelessness and the eradication of child poverty.

In September 2021, the OCO hosted a webinar to launch Digital Voices, research carried out by TU Dublin on behalf of our office about how digital and social media might be mobilised to advance the implementation of children's rights to be heard in public decision-making. We welcomed a diverse range of stakeholders and speakers to that launch, including Philip Jaffé, from the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child; Regina Jensdottir, who is head of the Council of Europe's children's rights division and council co-ordinator for the rights of the child; and Valeria Setti, who is European Commission co-ordinator for the rights of the child.

The OCO made a submission to the United Nations Human Rights Council for its consideration as part of its review into Ireland's human rights record within the universal periodic review.

We also made a submission to the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child’s day of general discussion, which had a focus on "Children in Alternative Care". That is a crucial topic for many thousands of children in Ireland.

Our 2022 annual report was published a month ago on 16 May. We called this report Falling Behind as it is clear from our work that on many issues, Ireland is starting to fall behind on children’s rights. There were 1,812 complaints made to our office in 2022 and education was once again the most complained about issue, with bullying, expulsion or suspension and special education resources featuring in many of the complaints. Falling Behind also features the stories of some of the children the OCO worked with last year. This includes the story of Aisling, who told us after making an allegation of bullying with a sexual dimension, the school made her feel responsible and that she was bullied by other students for reporting the abuse. The OCO took action and the school eventually apologised to Aisling with the board of management ultimately updating its policies.

We again engaged with a number of legislative and policy developments throughout 2022. These included the Education (Admission to Schools) Bill 2020, the review of Cineáltas: Action Plan on Bullying, further developments around the general scheme of the Mental Health (Amendment) Bill and the Health (Assisted Human Reproduction) Bill. In June 2022, we also published Plan for Places, a report that focuses on forward planning of the provision of school places for children with special educational needs.

We decided to ensure children’s thoughts and experiences of pandemic were recorded so we launched our No Filter survey in February 2022 to hear directly from children and young people about life during this time. No Filter was an online survey featuring a wide range of questions based on common issues raised with the OCO and in the media. A total of 1,389 children who responded to the survey and it found nearly half of those surveyed felt their lives had changed significantly throughout the two-year pandemic. Some 74% experienced feelings of loneliness and 83% of the children surveyed felt the pandemic had some negative impact on their learning. Falling Behind also details the OCO’s direct engagement with children through our children’s rights workshops. As public health restrictions had been lifted, we were delighted to welcome 1,100 children to the office in 2022, as well as meeting children on outreach visits to schools, child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, inpatient units and Oberstown Children Detention Campus.

During 2022, we continued our engagement with the periodic monitoring and reporting process relating to Ireland’s implementation of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. Our activities around that included: working with our YAP to produce Pieces of Us, a children’s report that consulted more than 5,000 children; producing a comprehensive alternative report for the UN committee that highlighted areas of concern and made recommendations about actions the State needs to take to advance the implementation of children’s rights; and travelling to Geneva with the members of the YAP in September 2022 to take part in a pre-sessional meeting with the UN committee and supporting them to take part in the children’s meeting with the committee in advance of the committee’s constructive dialogue with the State in January 2023. In October 2022, we held events in Sligo and Limerick for children with disabilities. Beyond Limits is our unique festival-style event for children and young people with disabilities and their families to enjoy an inclusive and accessible day of speakers, performances and activities. More than 1,000 people attended these two events.

In December 2022, we published Review of the Ombudsman for Children Act, which was commissioned independently. This report looks at how the role and remit of my office could be strengthened in a number of areas. We are working with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth to progress the recommendations made in this report.

In both 2021 and 2022, we hosted Child Talks, which is an event we hold each year to mark World Children’s Day. This event gives a platform to children to speak about issues that are important to them. The 2021 event was held in the RDS and seven young people took part. Topics on the day included living with scoliosis, equality, climate change, treating children with respect, mental health, gender issues in farming, fast fashion and living in direct provision. The 2022 event was held in the library here in Leinster House and had a theme of "If I were Taoiseach for the day". A wide range of topics were covered, including homelessness, education reform, autism supports, accessibility, rural transport, female empowerment, the Irish language and listening to children.

The OCO will celebrate its 20th anniversary next year and has grown from the original two staff members to a current total of 37. In that time, the number and complexity of issues we are dealing with have also increased. Following the review of our Act, we are working with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth to progress the recommendations contained in the report, which will extend our remit further. We have also agreed to take on a monitoring role in the actions pertaining to children within the Third National Strategy on Domestic, Sexual and Gender-Based Violence and we hope the resources will be in place soon to make that a reality.

In conclusion, while the information given in this statement offers a broad overview of the work carried out by our office, it does not include all aspects of the work we carry out. Thank you again for your invitation to meet. My colleagues and I are happy to take questions.

I thank Dr. Muldoon. Before I let others in, I have two quick questions. The number of complaints in 2021 was 2,126. Dr. Muldoon stated the increase was mainly related to Covid-19. However, according to the figures published in the OCO's latest annual report, the number of complaints in 2022 was 1,812. Leaving Covid aside, this is quite a significant increase on the 2020 numbers. Will Dr. Muldoon expand on this and why it shows Ireland is starting to fall behind on many issues?

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Pre-Covid, we expected between 1,600 and 1,700 complaints most years. In 2020, it reduced because there were many people not making complaints, many things not happening and there was a big gap. Covid, in and of itself, raised people's awareness of our office enormously, especially within the young group and the leaving certificate group. At one stage we had 50 complaints in one weekend from children concerned about the leaving certificate at the time there was no certainty about what the leaving certificate was going to be like. They mobilised themselves, they talked to each other and they sent texts. That awareness grew throughout Covid because we were standing up and being the voice of children in many situations in which they could not be heard. That led to an increase in that particular year, but also last year.

The complaints figure of more than 1,800 is probably one of our highest numbers anyway. Again, people are more sophisticated and are more willing to make complaints as well. We now have parents who are not willing to put up with what parents might previously have put up with and they know the system better. We are getting increases in that way. That is me being nice, but many flaws still have not been fixed. People are very much aware we as a nation are in a financial situation to no longer say we are the poor mouth. We need to fix these things. People are not standing for the poor service they have had for so long and are willing to come forward with complaints as a free alternative to going to court. That has led to it. Falling Behind is something we thought long and hard about, but unfortunately, despite being the 26th-richest county in the world, we are falling behind in the protection of our children's rights in many areas.

Yes. Does that lead on from what the OCO said in its 2021 annual report about the State needing to consider children's rights more fully when making decisions that affect them? Is it that in those situations the State needs to listen to the children more or can something be put in place that would cover their concerns?

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Within the Covid situation - and again I look forward to when there is a review of the process around that - it is clear at the particular time the Government was coming together to make really important decisions, it brought lots of people into the room and there was lots of influence from outside. There was influence on tax, on business and on lots of areas, but children were not in that room. The closest we got to children being represented in that decision-making situation was paediatricians or someone like that. Children's rights were not represented.

Individual Departments are now starting to bring children's views into play much more often. The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is doing a phenomenal job. The Department of Education is starting to set up, for the first time ever, a children's panel. Again, is it not ironic the one Department that has the most impact on children is only starting to listen children now? Nevertheless, it is a step forward and we will take it. There are thus many gaps, but we need to get to a situation where every Department asks itself when it makes a decision how it is going to impact on children. That is why we have consistently pushed for the incorporation of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child into our legislation so no Department can ignore children's rights in that way.

I thank Dr. Muldoon. I will let others in, starting with Deputy Higgins.

I thank the witnesses for being with us today and for all the work that they and their quite small team, considering the amount of work they get through, do in responding to complaints, the investigative work, all the reports they put together and the important recommendations in those reports. I wish them well in their 20th year. It is a significant milestone. The Ombudsman for Children has had a massive impact on Ireland and its society in that time.

More than half the complaints the ombudsman receives are about education. That is an area I am particularly interested in learning more about myself, because I get many complaints about education too. I would be especially interested in hearing more about their plan for places and recommendations on that. The constituency I represent contains Clondalkin, Lucan, Palmerston, Newcastle and Rathcoole. We have children with special educational needs in primary school but there seems to be a pinch point when they make the transition to post primary. We are talking about parents and children who have had to fight for so much already. They have a summer of discontent because they do not know where they will be starting school in September, when all their peers and friends have their letters of acceptance to different schools. It adds so much stress and uncertainty for a family who already have to struggle with so much. It usually puts much added pressure on a child who often requires stability, routine and certainty. My questions are about recommendations to improve the system for students with special educational needs.

My second question is about school buses. A constituent of mine got a response from the Office of the Ombudsman for Children this week. She raised the lack of an adequate school bus system for her child in Newcastle to attend the local school. While the investigation happened and concluded, the conclusion was that the rules were applied correctly. They absolutely were. How do we get those rules changed to allow people who are in her situation to have access to a school bus, especially now when we are looking at a situation when there is so much more access to school buses at a much more affordable rate?

My final question is about last week's leaving certificate maths examination. It is probably too early to have an indication on it but if the witnesses want to correspond with the committee afterwards, I would be interested to know if they received representations and complaints from leaving certificate students or their parents about last week's maths examination. A number of really distressed students contacted my office. My heart went out to them. One of the students was particularly passionate about maths. This was the area she was likely to fully succeed in. The damage an unfair paper can do to a child's confidence at a time when the child is going through a particularly stressful time, doing State examinations, is just awful. Have the witnesses any preliminary feedback on that? The vast majority of this year's leaving certificate class had never done a State examination, so they were probably already starting at a disadvantage with regard to nerves and not having the background of having already sat an exam. That added turmoil really added to the stress. My heart went out to students in that situation.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

I thank the Deputy for her thanks. I appreciate that. Hopefully next year will be a good year for us. It is our 20th anniversary. As the Deputy says, education complaints will consistently comprise the highest number of complaints for us. Close to 1 million children are involved in education, including early years as an education element. Most of our children are involved in education, so that is where most of the complaints will be. Plan for Places was born out of frustration over many years of us trying to deal with situations in which children were not getting access to their places. We would investigate individually and find that a school had the right to say no and that there was no space, so it could not do it. The Department of Education would say it could not force the school, so we would be left in that limbo where the parent was carrying the load for the child. As members all know, parents are applying for 20-odd schools, or however many it is. It is a ludicrous scenario. We said we would look at the system, how we used the information we have to project for school places, if it is being done properly and what the issues are.

We developed this Plan for Places last year. When we published it, there were about 300 children without spaces. In May or June, probably around this time last year, there was a huge push in the Oireachtas. Credit to everybody in the Oireachtas. They moved to change the legislation so we could push schools to take children in that situation and create school spaces. For me, that is a short-term solution. We always do a 12-month follow-up on those reports. We are in the middle of a follow-up at this point in time. I was informed that we would be told by January or February that there would be certainty that all children would have spaces for September 2024. I have never received that letter since. I am frustrated that there does not seem to be certainty yet. Plan for Places acknowledged the good work that was done in the Department in the previous two years that started to move together. The building unit and projecting team were talking to the right people. They had all the right information but from my point of view and from that of any logical-thinking person, it is known from the first day people are born with a disability that they will be going to secondary school and we should be planning for that.

The recommendations we made are that where there are black spots and gaps that we know about, those schools should be immediately resourced to provide classes. You can then move out so that every school is resourced to provide classes where necessary and you do not have to worry about getting specific resources. At this moment in time, I know there are still children without places, which is a serious flaw. I do not want to pre-empt our final review but we will be and are engaging with the Department on that. I have heard anecdotally from a number of different people that we now have places for children with autism but not for children with general disability issues who do not have autism. We are constantly creating another issue as opposed to building our schools and facilitating and resourcing our teachers and principals with enough space to deal with all the children who are coming through.

We are a nation that can forward plan for economic forecasts and for many things, but we should not be found wanting in this situation. We are talking about a couple of hundred children throughout the country who we already know are going to transition from early years through to primary school or from primary school through to secondary school.

The Deputy also mentioned school buses. As she can imagine, I cannot talk about an individual case. My guess at this point is that we need to look at whether, though I will not say "investigate", we need to engage on the criteria for school buses at this point. We have had many complaints about that sort of scenario. I have said many times that the nature of a well-running system is that it works well for over 90% of people but the flexibility is changing. In those flexibility areas, when there is flexibility for one area, somebody else looks for flexibility. That scares civil servants because it is not clean and it is not clear, but we need to allow for that flexibility to be built into the system in order that we can provide for more people who need it and so that children's right to education is not damaged. That should always be to the fore, not whether this is inside the system or not. It should be about whether the children's right is being damaged by not providing the service. I may go back and talk to my team about whether there is a case to look at those criteria.

I would really appreciate that. If there was a recommendation from Dr. Muldoon's office that the criteria need to be looked at, that would give me the opportunity to bring that recommendation to the Minister and put pressure on the Minister from the Government backbenches.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

I will not paint myself into a corner completely but we will certainly look at that.

On leaving certificate students, I am not aware that we have received any complaints but I will check on that. I have been on the record saying that the concept of the leaving certificate itself, the way it is done, and the 100% final three-week exam is not the way forward and should not be happening for children. When something like this happens, it is magnified. If this was 40% or 50% of their exam and they knew they had 40% in the bag, it would take much of the pressure off. That is one of the things. I cannot say one way or the other whether it was unfair. I will check if we had any complaints. It brings us to an area we have looked at in the review of our Act.

There is a disjoint between looking at exam results for children who are 17 years, which we do not have the right to do, whereas the general Ombudsman for public services has the right to look at it for an 18-year-old. These days, most children are 18 when they do the leaving certificate. It is an anomaly that we have identified in our Act whereby 18-year-olds can take a complaint to the general Ombudsman on exam results, whereas a 17-year-old cannot bring it to us.

That is interesting.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

It is interesting. That is one of the ones we looked at. I need to be careful to say whether I can do much with that, and I am not sure of the subtleties of it, but it is something we identified. I will come back if I have any details around exams.

I thank Dr. Muldoon for a very honest and in-depth report as always. In his opening statement, he said he was reappointed for the second and final time in 2021. I am sad to hear that.

I will raise a couple of cases. There is a case of a family in care where there were three little kids, Nina, Darren and Ben aged 12, 10 and nine years. Their foster parent was worried about them. The report stated:

They stated that once a child is confirmed as having been sexually abused in their area, HSE Primary Care Psychology would provide them with intervention. In such circumstances intervention is initially on a short-term basis for 6 to 8 sessions, however on a case by case basis longer-term intervention may be offered.

A little later the report continues:

They also reported it can prove very challenging for them to secure services to meet a child’s needs when longer term intervention is required but the child does not meet the threshold for CAMHS, whose remit is to provide intervention to children with moderate to severe mental health disorders.

The Principal Social Worker spoke about using the Tusla / HSE Joint Protocol to try to secure services but if the HSE determine that the child is not within their remit, even in circumstances where the child may be presenting with high levels of distress, they will not provide a service.

Dr. Muldoon’s report stated that we have to totally reform the child and adolescent mental health services, which we know are hugely dysfunctional and failing our most vulnerable children. He also spoke of concerns about CAMHS at this committee last year. Can he elaborate on where CAMHS is in serving children now? That is one question and there is a lot in it.

I am also interested in the schools issues. Dr. Muldoon said they account for about 53% of total complaints and 10% related to bullying, so 43% are on other issues. I met the Irish National Teachers Organisation, INTO, yesterday and was surprised that it is seeking funding to address issues within both primary schools and all schools. It has sought about €11 million in the next budget, which would work out at about €20 per child, for that. It stated that for that amount, mental health and counselling services could be provided that would nip issues in the bud in schools. Dr. Muldoon highlighted education being raised in 53% or 43% of complaints, so we can see there is an issue here. The organisation representing national school teachers is on the coalface and it sees the issues. It is asking the Government to help them. At €20 per child, surely that would represent value for money. Then there is trying to address issues of resourcing of school places.

The Joint Committee on Autism launched its final report yesterday. It contained strong recommendations on the educational side and the rights of a child to education. Everything has to be future-proofed and designed so it encompasses everybody. Dr. Muldoon’s opening statement referred to the difference between someone who might have autism who has a different disability and how we would get over that.

Will Dr. Muldoon comment on the INTO’s suggestion for funding at €20 a head. I have been in here a good many years and have been an advocate for mental health for 20 years and I never heard such a low figure which could address so much stress and demands on children today. It is 834,000 children.

That test case took a lot of time but it had a good outcome. It shows the power of an office that is working and that must be commended. I am very interested in where we are with CAMHS compared with last year. I do not think it will surprise me but it will be mice to have it on record.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

That was a particularly harrowing case study. No one would like to think of it happening to any child and particularly one who we had taken into care and tried to support through the foster parent.

We expect the final report from the Mental Health Commission on CAMHS very soon. It has not improved. The Deputy will have seen the interim report since the last time I was here. It came out in January and was scathing. At that stage, the commission had only gone to five of the nine CAMHS services and felt it was important to bring out an interim report because it was so concerned about it. That has not changed. I am not sure what might come out from the final report but even if nothing changes and the commission stands by what it said in January, that is a damning indictment of the system. The HSE has been scrambling around to try to show what is working. There was a report this morning that the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, is teasing us with an outcome from the HSE's own review of medication and prescription around the country. She said there is nothing to be concerned about and that Kerry was an outlier. That is good to hear but it only took a 10% sample from around the country so I take it with a pinch of salt when it comes to being sure. The review by the Mental Health Commission will also be of 10% of files. The review by Dr. Susan Finnerty, the inspector, was of 10% of five areas and she was so concerned that she had to write an interim report. We are now waiting for the final report to come along. CAMHS has a lot of work to do. My concerns about CAMHS are on the record. We need different leadership, better governance and oversight. There are 73 teams and the Minister of State said there are now 75. Each one has individual autonomy, which will always be a recipe for danger if there is no standing operating procedure. As each CAMHS team can work independently, there are opportunities for flaws, gaps and mismanagement and for mistakes to be made. It is also led by psychiatrists. We cannot and will never get enough psychiatrists to run those teams. We know that. I am on the record that we need to change the clinical leads and have the opportunity for other professionals to be clinical leads, where appropriate and necessary. Finally, there is a sense that oversight of the professional body, some of the things that were written in the reports of both the Mental Health Commission and the Maskey one in Kerry show poor professional performance but I have never seen anyone brought before professional boards. It would enhance trust again if we knew that if someone stepped out of line and was not doing his or her job properly that the professional body would step in and do something. That would reinstate trust for parents.

I made a recommendation before, and saw the Minister of State say it today, that if there was 75 teams and none are full, then we would bring all those staff together and create 40 or 50 teams that work and allow those teams to start to thrive. If those staff could be brought together, then it would start to make a better culture that is working, positive and in which parents can trust. That in turn would allow CAMHS to grow because people will want to be back working in that service again.

People will want to work there again. Professionals will return from other countries and it will start to become something positive. There are opportunities there as well.

As regards counselling for children in primary schools, my interpretation of the INTO's figure of €11 million is that the organisation wants the Government to provide that funding to offer a counselling service rather than the INTO providing it. We have got to start with the €5 million from the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley. I recommended last year that the €5 million should be matched by €5 million from the Department of Health so that the two organisations were working together to provide a mental health counselling service for children. We could use the same professionals and would not have to hire new people all of the time, although in some places we would have to hire new people. I am delighted the INTO is really supportive. It was involved in research in 2017 which found that two thirds of all school principals felt that 80% of their children needed therapy at some stage in primary school, which is really clear and scary at the same time.

The starting point, the pilot scheme the Minister is running, is fantastic but we really need to push it. For me, €10 million or €11 million would be the minimum. We have gotten it started and we have two different strands coming. One is where several counties have panels of therapists available and schools can draw on them. The second one is where clusters of schools get health professionals involved to help them with counselling as well as working with parents and teachers on a broader, preventative element. Those two strands are very important and the crucial element is that this is not just a one-off budgetary election promise. It has to be sustained and built into the system so that children in primary school have as much access as they need in that regard. The INTO is pushing it and I am delighted about that.

I congratulate the Deputy and the autism committee for the work they have done. I have not had a chance to read all of the report but I know there are over 100 recommendations in it. There is real clear-sightedness there. Oftentimes it feels like a statement of the obvious but we need to move forward. Future thinking, as the committee can see from my discussion on planning for places, is so important but even when we have all of the information we do not seem to follow through on the future planning. That is really concerning but hopefully the report of the autism committee will be taken on board.

I want to touch on the Plan for Places report. As Mr. Muldoon said, we already have the information we need. As public representatives, we have this information every year because we have a constituency dashboard. We have the Census information and can find out things like the average ages of children in east Cork, how many have a disability, how many children are in families, the age demographics and so on, so we can plan for school places. We can basically forecast what is going to happen and the emphasis needs to be placed on that.

The office of the Ombudsman for Children is vital, not only to this committee but to the wider public. We need forums like this to draw attention to the office because people do not know what it does. Mr. Muldoon said so many children have contacted his office which I am delighted to hear. Children do not get enough credit for how cute and smart they are. I am delighted to hear that. We can tell people that the door of the Ombudsman's office is open, the information is available on its website and if they feel they have a grievance, they should not be shy but should stand up for themselves.

The report is very thorough. It highlights some desperate cases across the spectrum but the outcomes have been very positive. Mr. Muldoon touched on disability but that is an issue for another day in terms of how services are not working. I just want to commend the office for all the work it has done. It has always been a pleasure to work with it.

Dr. Carmel Corrigan

If I may, I would like to add a small point in relation to CAMHS. We consulted with 5,500 children for the UN committee's report. We had children responding to surveys, obviously with their parents filling in some of them, from the ages of two to 17. We then engaged with over 200 children directly in order to flesh out some of the themes. The one recurring theme through all of the surveys and the report was the issue of mental health and children's concern about the lack of services and the lack of availability of support and information, either when they are in poor mental health or to prevent poor mental health. As a follow-up, we did a second piece of research at the end of last year. I do not know if Deputy Buckley has seen this. It is called A Piece of my Mind. It was a survey responded to by over 2,000 children in secondary schools between the ages of 12 and 17. It specifically looks at their own mental health, how they assess it and what they feel contributes to poor mental health. The survey also asked about CAMHS and other services. The same issues come up again and again. They know them. The issues are that they wait a long time for a service; they cannot access a service; the service does not last long enough to address their issues; they feel that it is unhelpful; they are not really listened to; or the service does not deal with or address their specific issues them. What they want is services in school. We keep coming back to this all of the time. Children know where they are and where they are comfortable. They know a career guidance counsellor is not a psychologist or a trained therapist. They do not want to go to the school chaplain when they are feeling unwell. They know that they need those services where they are, which is in schools. We really welcome what is a large step forward with the primary school pilot programme being pushed out on this but in the context of future proofing, we need to flag that those children will move from primary school to secondary school in exactly the same way as a child with a disability will move from primary to secondary school. If those services end in sixth class and there is no support for them in secondary school then we cannot expect the picture of our children's mental health to change for the better in the long term.

I have actually submitted parliamentary questions on that and I think Dr. Muldoon answered one of them for me.

Is it the schools or the Department that is preventing those services from being put in place where they are needed?

Dr. Carmel Corrigan

I think it is a lack of resources that is stopping them from being put in place. I am not aware-----

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Just on that point, the Department originally said that the policy of the Government is that the Department of Health will provide counselling and the schools will signpost. This is why it is such a big change for them to be involved but it is also why I believe we need to have both Departments engaging with us on this so that it becomes solid and cannot be reversed in the future.

Dr. Carmel Corrigan

Can I make two very quick final points? Ireland in some ways is an outlier in the European context, or even the global context, in relation to not providing these services in schools. There are excellent examples of good practice in this area across the world. I would point to Denmark in particular. We know that the Scandinavians always lead the way on some of these things but the Australian and New Zealand models are also excellent, with multiple counsellors and social workers as part of-----

New Zealand started a Beating the Blues programme more than ten years ago.

Dr. Carmel Corrigan

----the school staff. They are not adjunct but are school staff. The final point I want to make is that the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child provided its concluding obligations on Ireland's adherence to the convention earlier this year. Mental health is an area on which the committee has stressed there is a need for urgent action. It is not just a set of conclusions; the committee requires urgent action. The UN committee identifies the issues that we have identified and that this Oireachtas committee has identified which include long waiting lists, children in adult psychiatric units, no supports in schools, a lack of services and of professionals and so on. All of those issues have been highlighted by the UN committee to the State as requiring urgent action. The framework is there. We have all of the recommendations.

Yes, we just need to start implementing them. Senator Warfield is next.

I thank Dr. Muldoon and his team for their work, as ever. Dr. Muldoon has spoken about staffing issues previously. He has also spoken today about the increased remit of his office in terms of its monitoring of the implementation of the Third National Strategy on Domestic, Sexual, and Gender-Based Violence and the actions around that.

Have the witnesses further comment to make on the staffing resources they will need to address that wider remit?

Dr. Muldoon mentioned advocating for the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child being incorporated into legislation. Is there any particular legislation or missed opportunities in recent years he would care to mention? He also spoke of the State giving more attention to special measures for particular groups of children in emergency situations. Is that in reference to emergency accommodation or children in homelessness? I would welcome his comment on that area.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Could the Senator repeat the last bit?

Dr. Muldoon spoke of giving more attention to special measures needed to mitigate the disproportionate impact decisions can have on particular groups of children, including in emergency situations. Is that in reference to emergency accommodation, the housing situation or children in homelessness? Any comment on that area would be welcome and appreciated.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

On the domestic, sexual and gender-based violence strategy, the third strategy, it is the first time we as a nation have acknowledged children as victims of domestic violence and not just witnesses. It is a huge step forward and something we are delighted with. Probably 18 months ago, we met with a consultant who was helping to bring together the strategy and were asked if we would be willing to be involved in monitoring the actions. It was something we had to consider. We get that request often but I do not think we have ever taken it up before. We felt in this situation it might be appropriate to lend the weight of the office to this new initiative and new way of seeing children. Tens of thousands of children are affected in this way. We took a look and said we would do it but needed new resources to make it happen. We could not do it with the resources we had. There was agreement that would be the case.

I met the Minister for Justice last year and the resources were not forthcoming for 2023 so we are in negotiations with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, which has the Vote for our funding, and the Department of Justice to ensure that will be available as soon as possible. If all goes well we should be able to advertise by possibly September which means we will be 18 months into the strategic plan before we start looking at monitoring, which is not ideal from our point of view and which we think is unfair. Our hope and objective is to provide that monitoring element. We think the strategic plan has been hugely important and all the people more directly involved in domestic and gender-based violence see it as very positive, but the monitoring will be hugely important. To call somebody out and say they are not doing it, not doing it at the right pace or not doing it in the way they said they would will be important. We are disappointed we have not been able to hit the ground running earlier but we hope that will change.

On incorporation of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, the essence of incorporating it is it becomes an umbrella for all our legislation and how we do our work. I will call out one we have called out many times: the legislation on housing and homelessness for local authorities does not mention children. It mentions dependants. It does not ask the local authorities to consider that you have a child here and that in turn changes what you need to provide for that person. That is one of the best examples. The incorporation of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child has happened in Scotland and has changed the way they do many things. The Department of agriculture will never think about children. They do not think it is relevant. The Department of environment might not. Nor will Departments of rural affairs, islands and Gaeltacht – but children are impacted by every one of those. If they are making a decision on what finance they want, how they want it and where it will be used, children should be considered. That is why we are looking for it. It changes the way our Civil Service and public service do their business, which is what we are looking to do. It puts children at the heart of it.

On special measures, I refer to the child's rights impact assessment we did in regard to Covid. I ask my colleague, Ms Gill, to speak on that.

Ms Ciara Gill

With special measures, we identify groups of children that might be experiencing disadvantage or be particularly vulnerable. When we conducted the child’s rights impact assessment on the impact of Covid, we picked children experiencing mental health difficulties, homeless children, children living in direct provision, children with disabilities and Traveller and Roma children. We wanted to see how the Covid lockdowns and restrictions had had a particularly negative impact on those children. It impacted all children, but on those children it had a very severe impact.

Those are two issues I can bring to our work plan in terms of advocating for the resources to be delivered to the Ombudsman as soon as possible for what it is worth. We will do whatever we can to get the resources and look at the dependant-versus-children piece.

Dr. Carmel Corrigan

Going back to the DSGBV strategy, I am beginning to sound like a broken record but this is an area the UN committee in the concluding observations identified as requiring urgent action on behalf of the State in relation to children’s awareness and their education around all types of violence, including DSGBV. This is something we need services in, that we need to provide for children in and we need a firm driver that children are very much part of this. The international recommendations are there and might be worth considering as well.

I am looking at the figures and at the increase in unrelated adults who contacted the Ombudsman’s office. Some trends identified were the special needs assistants, SNAs, allocations. These complaints related to the shared allocation of SNAs and support and how the decisions on the level of allocation impacted the children. Has anything changed since in relation to SNAs?

Dr. Niall Muldoon

I probably need to check but my understanding is nothing has changed since then. I need to go back, just to be fair on that. The decision by the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, and the Minister, Deputy Foley, to acknowledge SNAs as a profession will make a difference. The availability of people should be increased and that will move them into a more stable situation.

In Deputy Buckley's and in all our offices, we hear the whole time of early intervention. The Ombudsman is probably hearing it as well. There seems to be dragging of heels the whole time. I am sure children are falling through cracks because of the lack of early intervention and the lack of SNAs.

There are constant complaints related to mental health and it is often related to the effects of the pandemic. Those complaints tend to be around waiting lists. Has the Ombudsman's office any remit in examining that?

Dr. Niall Muldoon

It is something we do continuously. “A Piece of my Mind” contains words directly from children and the interesting piece in that was 12% of the children we surveyed had contact with CAMHS, but CAMHS continues to tell us that it only sees 2% of the nation's children.

There are a lot more children going into the CAMHS service than possibly need to be there. We need to go to primary care and say, "Why are they going to CAMHS?", because there is nowhere else to go.

Reiterating what Dr. Corrigan said, if I was running a restaurant where the feedback from my customers was, first, that for 47% it took too long to get in; second, when they got in, we did not listen to them properly; and third, those who did listen dismissed them. That is what our children are saying about our CAMHS services.

So is Dr. Muldoon saying that by not getting them to primary care, and everybody being shoved into CAMHS, that is part of the problem and why CAMHS is so clogged up?

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Yes, that is part of the problem. That is correct and CAMHS will say that. GPs also will say that sometimes, they refer to three places, just in case, as they are not sure what is going to happen.

Is there a reason? Is it a lack of staff at the primary care centres?

Dr. Niall Muldoon

It has been run down. We do a lot of talking about CAMHS, but primary care is where we need to get it. From my point of view, it is important to have that availability of therapy in primary schools. That is going upstream and stopping things from developing badly. It is identifying children who may need further work, and then they need to go into primary care before they go to CAMHS. There is a gap there where we need to go upstream.

With all the discussions about CAMHS, we should probably be focused on primary care first, and get that sorted first, or do it unison.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Yes, do it in unison. If you improve the primary care, then a lot less will need to go into CAMHS. This will take the pressure off CAMHS and should allow it to provide a better service.

There is no talk about primary care.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Yes, there is less talk about primary care. Some 12,000 children are waiting for primary care at the moment, so again, if we can get them seen. What happens if they are on it for a year is they may become relevant to CAMHS. They may deteriorate, so they have to go to CAMHS as well. There is that whole knock-on effect.

There would be a certain amount of that 12,000 who, if the primary care centre was looked after, would never have to be moved on to CAMHS?

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Correct. That is exactly it. It is really important that we look at both. Again, that can be dealt with. One does not need psychologists in there all the time. Different types of therapies and interventions can be done. Last year, I recommended that the national counselling service, which provides therapy for adults who have been sexually abused, could be used to provide a system of therapy for children who have suffered sexual abuse. This would take them off primary care as well. That could change. One could also have the counselling services that provide counselling in primary care. This provides therapy for adults who are referred by GPs. One could have a similar system where a GP could refer children to counselling close by within their area. The system is already set up. The clinical governance and the actual governance is available within those services. If they could be maximised for children, then one could start to move.

Is it a lack, so, from the HSE or is it the Department that is not putting a push?

Dr. Niall Muldoon

I think there is a fixity around the way they see the solutions. Their solution is to say, "we need to fix what we have already got", as opposed to looking at how they can change it or do something different that still has children at the heart of it. I think the problem is they do not have children at the heart of it. If you have children at the heart of it, you would be innovating all the time, like a parent does. They think, "as I cannot get it this way, I am going to find some other way". It is a question of being innovative, to be changing, to be willing to change it and to make sure that every single angle is tried. They see a system and say, "We do not have enough psychologists; that is the answer". Well, what are they doing instead of psychologists? Who else are they hiring? What are they doing instead and how are they getting more psychologists? We keep working to the same system that has failed us.

A failed system.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

A failed system. Even if one got more resources into a failed system, it does not necessarily change. It is that sort of initiative and bravery that is needed from the HSE.

Instead of just doing the same thing over and over again.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Correct.

Einstein had a theory on that, that it would be madness if one keeps doing it. Maybe someone at a higher level than us might start changing things.

Dr. Carmel Corrigan

If I may, Chair, we had a policy discussion forum between our youth advisory panel and senior policymakers in January of this year, where the HSE was very clear on its increased investment in the area of child and adolescent mental health and very clear on the additional funds and resources going into it. One of the young people said that while the money may have been spent, it is not reaching them. That is what children are saying; it is not reaching them. There is something in the way.

There is some blockage there. It is just crazy that if everyone is identifying where the problem is, and the same thing is being repeated over and over again, then somebody needs to start thinking outside the box or going in a different direction.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

The answer is always, "but we have increased our spending" but the only definite figure we have for spending on children is the CAMHS figure of €125 million. This works out at about 0.65% of the whole health budget. That is only on CAMHS; we do not know about primary care. Even the full mental health budget for adults and children is only 5.6%.

It is a great throwaway line to say that they are increasing spending, but it a question of how you are doing the spending.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Yes, of course it is.

Moving on to direct provision, I am looking at what the Office of the Ombudsman for Children's reports for 2021 and 2022 had to say about the addition of the children coming in from Ukraine. Could we touch on that for a minute, in terms of what kind of extra pressures that has put on, and where we stand with the White Paper on ending direct provision that was talked about?

Dr. Carmel Corrigan

I think that where it puts us on direct provision is in a very uncomfortable place as a State, which is where we should always be regarding direct provision anyway. However, we now know that since the arrival of the Ukrainian children, are a lot more children are living in direct provision accommodation and in emergency accommodation as well, and then perhaps transferring to direct provision accommodation as an alternative to any other form of housing. We know for instance that at the moment, there are about 1,700 children living in direct provision who have all of their immigration papers and status, but have no way of moving out. We know that there are between 7,000 and 8,000 children still living in direct provision. That includes asylum seekers and Ukrainian children who are here under the temporary protection directive. It is obviously a very difficult situation for everybody and is not something that we would want to see.

On the White Paper, our understanding is that the Government is currently reviewing the White Paper and progress made on it to date in light of the Ukrainian crisis. Instead of direct provision falling, it is increasing. We know that the number of direct provision centres are increasing. I believe that between 75 and 77 new centres were opened in the past six to eight months. Some 27 new ones opened at the end of last year. My understanding is that the Department and the Government are looking at priority areas for action under the White Paper but it is unclear as to what they might be in the context of the rapidly-changing situation.

One thing that we would like to see is a move to more rapid reception, proper reception facilities for when people arrive and more rapid progress through that reception into accommodation. It is also unclear at the moment as to how the vulnerability of children is being assessed when they arrive.

That is what I was just going to ask. With the new arrivals, or even the current events, has it become more difficult for children to access the vulnerability services that some of them would need?

Dr. Carmel Corrigan

Every child, when they arrive, is supposed to have a vulnerability assessment.

To the best of our knowledge - and this is only to the best of our knowledge; I would need further details - that is quite administrative rather than in any way multidisciplinary or therapeutic, if one wanted to put it that way. We are very unclear as to whether children have vulnerability assessments in the absence of the parents or other family members, which, of course, will influence what they reveal in such an assessment. There are many things in the system that are open to question.

What we would say quite firmly is that in the case of the temporary protection directive, Ukrainian adults and children have been able to enter the country smoothly in many cases. Under that directive, they have the right to work and go to school, and the right to healthcare. They have all of those rights. That seems to be working reasonably well for many of the Ukrainian families who are here. Perhaps we could look more closely at that model in order to see how it could be transferred to those who are not arriving from Ukraine. It may mean a vast improvement to the treatment and processing of people and in the lives of children coming here with their families.

Is Dr. Corrigan saying that in light of the assessments that are needed and the lack of services, many cases are a matter of ticking boxes and saying the assessment is done? Is that the case rather than children getting the services they need? Is that the fear?

Dr. Carmel Corrigan

That is the fear. It has been reported that the system is quite limited to forms, if I could put it that way, as opposed to-----

As opposed to assessments.

Dr. Carmel Corrigan

-----a proper vulnerability assessment. The concern for some children at least, particularly children who may be at risk within their own families and children who may well have been trafficked, is that because most of the assessments are conducted in the presence of a parent or adult, children may not be in a position to reveal a lot of vulnerability.

It is frightening to think that that is going on.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

The irony is that part of the White Paper commitment was that we would do vulnerability assessments. They were not being done before. The requirement only came into being in January 2022. The system became overwhelmed quickly. Those assessments are part of our international obligations. We are obliged to conduct assessments with real meaning.

Dr. Corrigan touched on the State's differential treatment of Ukrainians and refugees. Will she elaborate further on what she feels could be done quickly to address some of those issues? I agree that people in all sectors of society can tell us about shortages and looking for workers. We have people in the country but are sticking them into direct provision centres, giving them €28 per week and telling them to stay there. At the same time, we keep talking about shortages in the workforce.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

We were against direct provision for many years and felt it was the wrong way to go. We thought it inappropriate. We have now stumbled upon a way of doing things that can work in respect of people coming into our country. It is something we need to look at more seriously. Whatever works positively for one group of people should also work for others. I was in Citywest when I was still working actively. There is a difference between getting in and out in 24 hours and getting in and out in three weeks. That is something that could be fixed or smoothed out. We can take lessons in that regard. It is about learning where to take risks and balancing them against the reward. Are we afraid of making this place attractive for people who are stuck economically? That remains rare. We still do not have a great deal of evidence to show that has become the situation. Are we trying to make this place a safe haven for people who are absolutely terrified and traumatised by some of the worst conditions in the world, whether caused by war, famine or whatever else. Those people are coming to our country for safety. Can we assist them by allowing them to be part of our community in an active way that, as the Cathaoirleach said, could include employment and education? We can allow them to contribute back, which most of them want to do. Some people are coming with considerable skills but even if they are not coming with skills, they can still contribute in a way that is better than sitting in a direct provision situation. We need to take the lessons we have learned from how we have dealt with people from Ukraine and use those lessons to start broadening our horizons, with the children at the heart of our approach. How do we make the situation better for those children arriving? We do so by ensuring those parents feel good and safe, and included in our community, rather than stuck inside and perhaps prone to depression. Perhaps there are other troubles affecting those people. It is about engaging with them in that way and taking lessons.

Ms Ciara Gill

One area where change could be made quite quickly would be in the form of a payment similar to child benefit. That was promised but has not started yet. It would be of considerable benefit to the children living in direct provision.

Is there a reason the Department has not-----

Ms Ciara Gill

Not that we are aware of.

The Department has talked about it. Returning to CAMHS, there is an issue about which I want to pick our guests' brains. It concerns the ability of health services to deal with eating disorders. We have been told there is a lack of expertise in that area. I am dealing with a young boy in Cashel. He has an eating disorder and needs the services of a children's disability network team, CDNT, and the support of disciplines outside of that, such as psychiatry and paediatrics. However, the relevant CDNT does not have the needed range of expertise. CAMHS does not deem him eligible for certain reasons. He is falling through the cracks in the system because of a lack of expertise, staffing shortages and the inability of CAMHS to deal with him. Do instances like that come across the desks of our guests on a regular basis? How can we get out of those situations? It is heartbreaking to see. Everyone knows and will agree about the difficulties that this child has but we have no way of dealing with them. It goes around in circles and is heartbreaking for the family.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

We do get those complaints and have got them consistently during the time I have been involved in the office, which is now ten years because I was previously the director of investigations before I became Ombudsman. At one stage, we were sending children with eating disorders to England to get clinical support. We now have expertise in Ireland, or at least a little more than we had in the past. However, the independent CAMHS teams do not make their decisions on the basis of a standard operating procedure. The CAMHS team in the area the Cathaoirleach is talking about should be talking to other CAMHS teams and asking both for help and whether other teams can take on board the child. We have had situations and investigations where a child in a mental health situation needed tube-feeding. CAMHS in one area could not provide help. Two other areas had beds but would not take the child because he was from another area.

The child was in the wrong area.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Where is the child-centredness in that approach? It is an example of clinical autonomy gone mad. This is about overall governance, and that is why the HSE needs to look at itself and ask why it is allowing this. People at the top of the HSE are paid big money to lead its mental health services but they cannot tell a psychiatrist that he or she needs to step up and treat a child. We must get involved, and we have got involved. We pushed hard and made a difference. Somebody took the child on board and he thrived within a week. It changed him completely. That should not require intervention. Someone who has taken the Hippocratic oath should be considering what is best for the patient. The first principle is to do no harm. Medical professionals must ask whether by saying "No" they are doing harm to a child. We must think about things in a different way. It seems to be that some medical professionals have rules that say they will not take on certain cases even if they have capacity and would be able to do so. At the same time, we must encourage people in certain areas to upskill so these situations will not arise again. We need to find a way to make that happen. It seems that the clinical lead remains the overall decider, which is not necessarily a good thing.

I was thinking I might give up this job and take up something like that. I have often said that a common-sense and patient-centred approach is needed rather than ticking boxes. As has been said, the box-ticking has gone mad.

You use very resource you can. It is very simple in that if you do not have one, you ask somebody else whether they do. It is about sharing resources, and that is the reason for my hopes regarding CAMHS. The majority of staff, let us be honest, are in the service because they care. It is not because their jobs are easy. If you bake an apple tart with no apples and it does not taste like an apple tart, you ask yourself what is wrong. Jesus, you do not go back and make the same mistake again. What is happening just drives me mad. That is why I said it is important for us to have the witnesses before us. They are correct that people have to take responsibility, own their work and sometimes challenge. The witnesses have a duty of care in their jobs, as do we. When somebody comes to us with a protected disclosure, we have to go with it. That is our responsibility. You cannot have fear and unfortunately you will sometimes be criticised for doing the right thing.

I am glad it has been put on the record that there has to be a total change of attitude in the whole health system. We criticise managers a lot and praise the lower staff, but there has to be respect throughout the entity. All staff should be working together because the service is called the health service and supposed to serve the people of the country, yet we seem to be constantly going around in circles over red tape, box-ticking to cover one's backside and hiding mistakes. Do not even get me started on the Revised Estimate for the HSE and what it pays out in compensation on foot of court cases. We do not see a single name of anybody held to account. This is because of no oversight. There has to be considerable root-and-branch reform. Sometimes we are told we are anti-this and anti-that but we are not; we are trying to get something right and asking that people stop making the same mistakes time and again, blaming everybody bar themselves and taking responsibility. I am a beaut for making mistakes but, as I say "people do not make mistakes; mistakes make you who you are because you learn from them". I will leave it at that. I thank the witnesses again.

I agree on someone actually starting to take responsibility. We have spoken about CAMHS and primary care. It is about the simple things. If someone actually took responsibility and just changed the system being used, it would make a massive difference to children's lives. If Deputy Buckley is making a tart without apples, he will blame Sandra, the wife. He will not take responsibility for it either.

Chilli pizza is more in my line, I have to be honest.

Has Deputy Buckley anything else to add?

No, I am very happy.

We appreciate the attendance of the guests. This has been very beneficial. It is great to have these kinds of discussions. We look forward to welcoming the guests again down the road.

Sitting suspended at 3.03 p.m. and resumed at 3.06 p.m.
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