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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, HERITAGE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Tuesday, 21 Oct 2008

Vol. 664 No. 5

Local Government Contracts: Discussion with Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.

Item No. 4 on the agenda is the resolution of disputes arising from local government contracts. Members may recall from previous meetings that the level of disputes in the local government sector that have gone to arbitration, conciliation and legal proceedings is giving rise to concern. Deputy Fitzpatrick raised this issue some time ago with regard to his experience with Kildare County Council and an engineering company.

Today we welcome the Secretary General of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to discuss with us the scale of disputes that end up in arbitration and facing legal proceedings. We thank Ms Tallon and her officials for attending.

The format of the meeting will see the representatives of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government making a presentation that will be followed by questions and answers.

Before we begin, I draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege here but the same does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I thank the Chairman and the members of the committee for the opportunity to make a brief introductory statement.

The invitation relates to the committee's interest in contracts in the local government sector that have gone to conciliation and arbitration. I set out in my letter, late last week, 14 local authority projects relating to programmes within the remit of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government that are currently at conciliation and arbitration.

It would be useful if I briefly summarised the Department's management role and procedures relating to capital projects carried out by local authorities and funded by the Department. I will then outline the role of the conciliation and arbitration process and how local authorities engage with the Department on decisions relating to contracts and entering and going through the process.

The general procedures for the management of capital programmes are laid down by the Department of Finance in its capital appraisal guidelines of 2005. My Department, in turn, has advised local authorities, through various circulars, on how these procedures are to be complied with regarding the management of capital programmes for housing, water and waste management. These circulars outline a comprehensive set of procedures to be applied by local authorities in managing projects from the initial stages, such as determining the brief for consultants, through to various intermediate stages, such as cost benefit analysis, contract documentation, procurement and construction, to dealing with the final account.

Local authorities must use the standard forms of contract approved by the Department of Finance for public capital contracts. The contracts contain a mechanism for resolving difficulties that may arise, whether regarding costs or other contractual matters. The dispute resolution process provided for in standard contracts involves negotiation in the first instance, then, if required, the process moves on to conciliation and arbitration. Ultimately, matters may be referred to the courts.

An effective dispute resolution procedure is essential to the efficient operation of contracts and provides protection for both the employer and the contractor. This employers' protection embraces a duty of care for any costs falling to be funded by the Exchequer.

In spending public funds, local authorities must ensure they get value for money and when a dispute arises regarding costs they must consider the issues involved and seek to resolve it in a fair and equitable manner. Clearly, it would be inappropriate and wrong if local authorities were to attempt to abuse the conciliation and arbitration process and treat contractors unfairly. However, as the name implies, the purpose of the process is to reach a fair and reasonable resolution of disputes. Local authorities carry a duty of responsibility to ensure that any claims for additional costs are legitimately admissible. If they are of the view that certain claims for additional costs are not well-founded they must resist them through the procedures available.

With regard to the Department's oversight of local authorities' engagement in conciliation the following procedures apply. In respect of projects funded by the Department a local authority must notify the Department at all significant stages including: when a dispute is referred to conciliation; before agreeing settlement or accepting a conciliator's recommendation; before rejecting a conciliator's recommendation or where it is rejected by the contractor, causing the dispute to go to arbitration; prior to an appeal to the courts on a point of law; and prior to proceeding with terminating a contract.

This enables the Department to monitor local authority engagement in the operation of conciliation and arbitration. In exercising this oversight, the Department will ensure risk analysis is applied at critical points in the decision-making process. Where a local authority recommends a settlement, it must demonstrate that any such settlement or recommendation for settlement is either within the terms of the contract, or where not strictly within the terms of the contract, is considered to be more cost effective than an arbitration outcome would be on the basis of a risk assessment.

Risk assessment is now being extensively applied. Detailed risk assessments must be carried out prior to making a decision to terminate a contract and at all the stages referred to earlier. Where termination is being considered, the risk assessment should be prepared by suitably-qualified technical and-or legal advisers. Such advisers must be independent and not have any previous involvement with the project at any stage. To assist local authorities further in this regard, the Department is developing a guidance and risk template which will be completed this year.

I should say also that the new forms of construction contracts for public work, fixed-price lump sum contracts now in place will provide for much more comprehensive and detailed preplanning, reducing the likelihood of cost overruns and, in time, the potential for cases proceeding to conciliation and arbitration.

There are currently 12 housing projects, one water project and an urban development project in the conciliation and arbitration process. The reality is that the great majority of contracts do not go to conciliation or arbitration. The day-to-day management of these arbitration cases is the responsibility of the local authorities, subject to complying with the reporting procedures associated with the Department's oversight responsibilities of the capital programmes in question. The total tender value of the housing and water services projects is €71.6 million which represents 2.5% of the 2008 total investment of €2.88 billion in housing and water services, or 3.1% of the €2.24 billion Exchequer and local authority capital expenditure on the housing and water services programmes.

I recognise the conciliation and arbitration process is an important part of the public works contracts system. It is essential it operates well for all parties concerned, the employing local authority, the contractor and of course the Exchequer. The arrangements my Department has in place to monitor and manage local authority projects going through conciliation and arbitration will ensure proper risk management is undertaken to inform decision making in the process.

I thank the joint committee for the opportunity to make this opening statement.

Thank you, Ms Tallon.

The cases I have shown an interest in during the past number of months relate to cases in County Kildare that have gone through the process of conciliation. The cases are now going to arbitration, but they do not appear on the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government's list. Is there a reason for that?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The projects that appear on my list are in the water services and housing area, the capital programmes for which my Department has responsibility.

Is the Secretary General in a position to answer queries on other cases, for example, the specific case that I, as a Deputy from County Kildare, am dealing with?

On a point of information, is the Deputy referring to a roads project?

Is it possible that it is being dealt with by the Department of Transport? If so, we have a problem. Non-national roads were under the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government until the last election.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Until 1997.

At that time, non-national roads transferred to the Department of Transport. I am very sorry, Deputy. Responsibility for non-national roads resides with the Minister and the Secretary General in the Department of Transport.

Let me be specific. I am referring to the Barberstown-Straffan realignment scheme in County Kildare, which was done as part of the improvement works in the village for the Ryder Cup, and the Rickardstown road improvement scheme and off-site drainage scheme.

What year was that?

The conciliator's report on the Barberstown-Straffan project is dated 20 August 2007.

This project was undertaken when the local roads function was under the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. Is that correct? When was the work done?

The work was done in 2006 for the Ryder Cup.

It was within the remit of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. Responsibility subsequent to that has been transferred to the Department of Transport. Would the officials from the Department of Transport or the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government be more familiar with this project?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The officials from the Department of Transport would be more familiar with projects in the transport area at this stage. I recall roads projects in County Kildare as part of the overall preparations for the Ryder Cup in County Kildare. Some of the roads to which Deputy Fitzpatrick refers were part of the programme of preparations undertaken by Kildare County Council at that stage. Responsibility for non-national roads was transferred to the Department of Transport on the formation of the Government in June 2007 and I would not be in a position to comment on developments or subsequent developments in regard to the handling of projects in those areas.

In her opening statement Ms Tallon stated: "Clearly it would be inappropriate and wrong if local authorities were to attempt to abuse the conciliation and arbitration process and treat contractors unfairly." That is strictly the issue I have with this roads project. I believe Kildare County Council is treating the contractors very unfairly in this instance. The matter went to conciliation and the conciliator made a recommendation which I think was fair and reasonable. Kildare County Council had a range of professional people at the conciliation stage and at the preliminary meeting for the arbitration process. The council is incurring a very substantial bill, which somebody must pay.

I studied the documentation on this project and I believe my local authority is abusing its position in this instance. This small indigenous engineering company in County Kildare had 200 to 300 people working and now the number is down to around 50. Of course some redundancies would have occurred because of natural wastage and the environment in which we are living. However, a substantial reason for the reduction in employee numbers is due to cashflow difficulties caused by the way Kildare County Council is handling this issue. I believe the county council is abusing its position.

I want to ask questions, even if the Secretary General does not wish to answer them. Who sanctions the money? I remember a meeting of this committee in July when the question was asked as to whether a limit exists on what the local authority can spend on arbitration. The committee was advised that no limit exists. It seems very unfair that the local authority can bring anyone it wishes but that a company, no matter how big or small, must fund and defend itself, while the local authority can use top of the range professionals within and outside the country, as was the case in this instance. I have two or three questions written down. What criteria are necessary to access this money? How does the county council get it? I welcome the reference to risk assessment, as I was going to ask who carried it out. On what basis and during what period is the money paid to the county council? Who funds the county council during the conciliation process and when it uses legal representation? I have many other questions I wish to ask, but perhaps it is an issue for another day.

All the questions asked by Deputy Fitzpatrick about risk assessment and the resources available to a local authority apply to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. We request that all of the questions on how the process works be addressed. It might not deal with the particular contract but the same principles and procedures should apply in the other Department also. Will the Department respond to the points raised by Deputy Fitzpatrick and outline the whole process in more detail?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I can comment in broader, general terms. The contract procedures provide for dispute resolution, for which there are formalised procedures. The process begins when the parties seek to negotiate. This is the first and most important aspect of the dispute resolution process. If the negotiation is not successful, the process moves to conciliation.

Let us take it one step at a time. Where in the local authority and at what level in the Department is the go-ahead given to move to conciliation? Does a director of services have this power? Is it someone at the engineering site, or must it be the county manager? Who has the authority from the Department's perspective to state these steps? That is what we wish to know. What is the understanding between the Department and the local authority on funding for each step?

On a related question——

Perhaps the delegation might make some observations and we can then tease out the issue. Before it does so, I call Deputy McCormack.

My question relates to one of the items mentioned on the list, namely, Galway City Council and Eyre Square, on which I seek more information, as not much is provided. How much has been spent on whatever processes have been utilised to deal with the dispute? What is the estimated liability of the city council when the matter is finished? What action, if any, is taken against council officials who make the decision to go to court in a dispute, or who appeal a court decision? Who makes such a decision to proceed in that way? Are there any repercussions for an official who causes a local authority to be at a loss of millions of euro, or as in this case, when it may turn out to be tens of millions? I seek clarification on what it may cost the city council in the end. These occurrences will continue if there are no repercussions for anyone who makes decisions. Officials are not dealing with their own money; it is taxpayers' money. It is the council which will be at a loss of millions of euro in such cases. There are many precedents such as the case in Limerick where it cost the local authority millions of euro to pursue contractors through the courts, or to remove contractors from operations under way. Does someone in the Department make the decision to proceed in these matters or is it someone at local authority level? If I received an answer to these questions, I could then deal with some of the points raised in Ms Tallon's contribution.

My question is related. Ms Tallon stated 14 cases had been referred for conciliation. Consider an instance where a conciliator makes a recommendation and the county council rejects it and sends the case to arbitration. Local authorities can seek expert opinion throughout Europe and gain access to seniors barristers and so on, but at a sizable cost. Often the contractor, for example, a medium-sized contractor operating within a county, employing between 30 and 80 people, will not have the same resources. Such firms have limited resources to fight such cases. Often it is very unfair and ultimately probably costs more.

Is there a limit to what can be spent on arbitration and conciliation? We all know of small companies which have been driven out of business as a result of cases being taken against them by, as they see it, Big Brother. We know the situation in most local authorities, as most members have served on local authorities. The budget meetings are probably the most important that councillors attend. Local authorities are often cash-starved to fund the provision of services such as roads, footpaths, public lighting, fire and rescue, water and sewerage schemes and so on. What frustrates people is that there are no limits to what can be spent on taking a case to arbitration and that the elected members have no say in this regard, which annoys the public. Will the officials from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government address this matter?

The issue raised by Deputy Fitzpatrick will necessitate an invitation to the Joint Committee on Transport to provide an opinion on the case in question or similar cases which may arise. We may get some pointers on these questions. It seems local authorities have no restrictions on the amount they can spend in fighting cases. This is the generally held viewpoint.

Will Ms Tallon proceed step-by-step, as many members do not know what happens behind the scenes? The first step is negotiation. Who in the local authority and the Department is involved? Does the local authority or the Department obtain legal advice at that stage? Is the Office of the Chief State Solicitor involved when a decision is taken to move from negotiation to conciliation? Will Ms Tallon then take us through what happens when one wishes to proceed from conciliation to arbitration and when ones wishes to move from arbitration to the courts? She referred to four steps or procedures in her opening statement. How does one proceed to each step? The small contractor is working on his own with his foreman trying to get the job done and not only the arm of the local authority but that of the State and the whole system is against him. Will Ms Tallon explain the steps to be taken in order that we understand who has the authority to move projects such as those mentioned?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I will do my best and, if the Chairman will permit me, I will ask some of my colleagues to join me in dealing with some of the points raised by Members.

Consider the most fundamental point of all. The local authority is the client and the body with the primary relationship with the contractor in any given area of capital works development. Depending on the type and size of the scheme involved, there may be devolved procedures from the Department or, if it is a very large scheme, it may be subject to specific approvals at every stage of the design, development, tendering and cost assessment process. If it is a very large project, it may also be considered by the National Development Finance Agency for a cost benefit assessment or the appropriate method of procurement. For example, if a scheme included in the water services programme is worth less than €5 million, it will be subject to a light level of approval and a set budget will be established. After that it is a matter for the local authority to operate within that budget. If it is a scheme like Eyre Square, for example, which came to the Department as a proposal under the urban renewal programme of the National Development Plan 2000-2006, it attracted a specific set grant from the Department under that urban renewal grant scheme. That was the Department's only involvement so far as the Eyre Square project was concerned.

Did that finish the Department's involvement once it granted the money?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

That finished the Department's involvement other than satisfying ourselves that the money was spent properly in the redevelopment of Eyre Square.

Was the Department satisfied with that?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Yes.

How come we are in the present position?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I am sorry, Deputy. If I go back to the step by step — in terms of the types of projects involved, I said one could have a very large project of more than €20 million as a threshold for housing projects. They would go to the NDFA for assessment in terms of the type of procurement to be undertaken, that is, whether it should be a tendered for scheme or a PPP type project.

In what situation would the Department be the contracting body for those large contracts and those NDFA assessments?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Ultimately, it is the local authority.

Even for those large projects.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Even for those large projects. Many of our water services projects also go to the NDFA to be assessed from the point of view of the DBO system which we implement for the provision of treatment works. In every instance, the local authority is the client. Therefore, it is the local authority which has the contract. Depending on the size and complexity of the scheme, the local authority will be advised by consulting engineers and will have legal advice associated with that.

Contracts provide for dispute resolution. That is a legitimate part of contract procedures on all public capital projects. The standard conditions of contract up to the last year or so provided for variable-priced contracts where the tender could be varied for a variety of reasons. All tenders included a price variation contract under which changes in labour and materials costs were priced up while the contract was under way. There were allowances for re-measurement of items within the contract and provisional sums were provided for, all of which provided scope for readjustment of the initial tender price as work was undertaken.

That kind of variable-priced contract with a price variation clause gave rise to the potential for dispute between the contract parties which tended to relate particularly to disagreement over the quantum of increases allowed under the price variation clause.

So far as we are concerned, there are the three stages of dispute procedure in a contract. First, there is negotiation in regard to areas of dispute. The negotiation is undertaken typically by the local authority with the contractor with whom it has a dispute. Issues of determination would be settled, I think, by and large at director of service level but on the basis of a manager's order in terms of key areas of decision-making in dispute resolution. In our experience, at least 40% of contracts on our capital programmes which go into dispute mode are resolved at negotiation stage and do not proceed beyond that. If there is not a negotiated outcome, contracts proceed into the conciliation and arbitration machinery.

Conciliation is a non-binding process on the parties and it is just as open to a contractor as to a local authority to reject the findings of a conciliator. Sometimes the findings of a conciliator are rejected because conciliation is essentially a behind closed doors type process. It does not involve exchange of papers. It does not involve cross-examination on the case but a conciliator looking independently at the views and the approaches of the parties quite separately and coming to a view on that basis and making a recommendation.

There are relatively few contracts out of the hundreds of contracts we have on water and housing that go to conciliation and arbitration. Of those, the great majority are settled at conciliation. In the housing programme for the period 2003 to 2007, nine disputes were settled at conciliation, one went to arbitration. The value of the conciliation awards on the nine contracts over five years was under €12 million and the value of the arbitration award in the one case was under €140,000. That is the scale of the use of conciliation and arbitration on a programme that runs to about €2 billion capital investment annually. It is a very small element of what happens overall. If disputes are not settled at conciliation they move forward into arbitration.

Ms Tallon is doing fine and we are with her all the way. We want to understand the process. Ms Tallon mentioned risk assessment. Is there written legal advice to the local authority advising it not to accept conciliation? Will Ms Tallon take us through the decision-making process that rejects the conciliation recommendation, leading to the local authority, obviously with the Department's knowledge, saying it will go to arbitration. Please explain the interaction that takes place when it is decided to reject conciliation?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

My colleagues from the water programme and the housing programme will deal with those issues.

I will call both of them.

On the issue of conciliation, Ms Tallon said that conciliation is "essentially a behind closed doors type process" with a view to finding agreement. In the case to which I refer, substantial numbers of legal people were present along with officials from Kildare County Council. It was more than just a chat. In preparation for going to arbitration the legal people and other officials are still turning up. In all of this, costs are building up and who will pay for them at the end of the day? Will it be another Galway situation?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The point I made on that is that conciliation is not a contested process. There may well be legal representation present on behalf of a local authority and there may well be legal representation on behalf of a contractor but it is not a prosecution and it is not a cross-examination. It is not a contested process. My colleagues from both programmes have more direct experience than I so I invite Mr. Eddie Lewis, housing, and Mr. Terry Allen, from water services to explain the issue.

Mr. Lewis is from housing and Mr. Allen is from water services.

Mr. Eddie Lewis

The starting point is a disagreement about either the quantum of a contract or some matter of principle. Mostly it is about the quantum. When the two parties cannot agree, it fairly naturally flows into a conciliation process. That is fair. The Department is notified. We do not make a very formal decision on this because if one reaches the stage where one cannot agree at that early stage, conciliation is the route that is provided for.

Virtually all the cases related to housing are resolved at conciliation or post-conciliation stage. A conciliator makes his or her decision and, on that basis, the two parties get together and decide what to do. A deal is usually hammered out at that stage. Either the conciliator's award is accepted as it stands or there is negotiation at post-conciliation stage and an agreement is made. The only case where that did not happen in the past five years was one in which the local authority was the defendant and the contractor took the case to arbitration.

As has been said, a case becomes more serious if it goes from conciliation to arbitration. At that stage, more formal risk assessments and other reports are prepared. The local authority must first make a judgment as to whether to go to arbitration and the Department reviews the material. We do not become directly involved with the parties but review the process and assess whether the actions taken were reasonable in the circumstances.

What about water services?

Mr. Terry Allen

The situation as it pertains to water services is broadly parallel. Since 2000, no more than ten cases in the water services area have ended up in full arbitration and not all were brought by the local authority, some having been taken by the contractor. Since 2006 a much greater degree of formality has been brought to the arbitration process. In cases under the old conditions of contract, mentioned by the Secretary General, there was greater scope for claims than there is in the narrower scope of the current arrangements. The local authority is now required to undertake risk assessments at every stage. The purpose of the risk assessment is to establish whether right is on the side of the local authority or the contractor. It is also required to consider what would happen in the event of a case going wrong and what the likely outcome would be if an arbitrator ruled against it. The local authority acts according to what it believes to be right but must consider what the quantum of an award might be. If its risk assessment and advice show a likelihood of an award in excess of the contractor's claim, the authority will stop and settle with the contractor.

Who carries out the risk assessment? Some people are locked into a mindset at that stage in the proceedings.

Mr. Terry Allen

That is a fair point.

Directors of services, for example, will be somewhat locked into their position.

Mr. Terry Allen

It is unlikely that a person would carry out a risk assessment and decide that he or she was wrong. The procedures specifically require that risk assessments be carried out by people of parallel experience and capacity and who were not previously involved in the case. It is an independent risk assessment.

Is the risk assessment required to be sent from the local authority to the Department?

Mr. Terry Allen

Yes.

Is legal advice sought at that stage?

Mr. Terry Allen

Yes. Legal, technical and engineering advice is taken.

Does the Department receive advice from the Office of the Chief State Solicitor or the Office of the Attorney General?

Mr. Terry Allen

It would depend on the case and the circumstances. Advice could be sought from both sources.

Was there consultation with the Office of the Attorney General in the ten cases to which Mr. Allen referred?

Mr. Terry Allen

Not in all, but in some of them.

I would appreciate any information the officials can give me about Galway City Council and Eyre Square. They said that detailed risk assessments had to be carried out prior to making a decision to terminate a contract, which is what happened in the case of Eyre Square. They also said that, where termination was being considered, the risk assessment should be prepared by suitably-qualified, technical and-or legal advisers. Who carried out the risk assessment for terminating the contract for the Eyre Square project?

Ms Mary Moylan

The arbitration of the Eyre Square project has not concluded.

The High Court has ruled against Galway City Council. Now it is open to the contractor to take the council for as many millions as it likes.

Ms Mary Moylan

According to the information we have from Galway County Council, the High Court decision only related to one part of the arbitration case. Another phase of the arbitration process remains. The Department had no role in the legal case relating to Eyre Square. Eyre Square was a different project from the housing and water programmes, about which Mr. Lewis and Mr. Allen have spoken. The Department invited local authorities to put forward proposals for funding under the urban and village renewal programme of the NDP. Galway County Council——

It was Galway City Council.

Ms Mary Moylan

Sorry. Galway City Council put forward proposals which were accepted by the Department but the procurement of the contract, the entering into the contract and the completion of the project were matters for the city council, unlike the housing and water projects.

So all decisions about the process were taken by Galway City Council and the Department was not involved in any way.

Ms Mary Moylan

That is correct. The Department's only involvement was to decide that it was an appropriate project and to grant aid accordingly. The city council submitted claims along the way and the Department, once it was satisfied that the work had been carried out, paid the funds in respect of those claims. Apart from that, the responsibility for running the contract, terminating it and taking the case was that of Galway City Council.

Is the Department aware of what it has already cost to take that case?

Ms Mary Moylan

We do not have detailed information. The project was audited by the local government audit service along the way and there were no adverse findings.

It would be millions of euro.

Ms Mary Moylan

We know the details of the contract costs and what the Department contributed but we are not aware of any additional costs as they are to be borne by the city council.

How will the city council bear costs if the first contractor, in light of the court findings, takes it to court for compensation for loss of business and loss of name? How can the city council sustain costs of perhaps tens of millions of euro?

Ms Mary Moylan

This will be part of the risk assessment which the city council had to carry out in respect of this project. The funding will have to come from the city council.

The Department has washed its hands of responsibility. Who takes responsibility for the officials who made the decisions? Will the people involved move on to another job and forget about Galway City Council?

Is there a decision manager? Who, ultimately, is responsible?

I would like to know that.

Do the legal fees come out of the current or capital budgets? If they are not put into the capital account, the Department should have a view on the prospect of that funding hitting such things as the lights and footpaths programmes. Will the Department ultimately supply the money for the costs that arise?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

No. I am sorry to say that we will not supply the money.

I am not suggesting the Department should do so.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The costs associated with legal fees in the Department's capital programmes are part of the capital cost of a local authority project, rather than part of the current account.

Was anybody responsible for decisions which cost the taxpayers of Galway city millions of euro?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Ultimately the manager is responsible for the executive decision making of the authority and is accountable to the elected members of the local authority.

Is that the manager who was there at the time or the manager who is there now?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

It is somewhat like the Accounting Officer.

He has gone from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to the Department of Transport.

The current manager can wash his hands of the matter and say it is the responsibility of a previous manager. Who takes responsibility? Does the buck ever stop with regard to decisions taken at management level of local authorities and which cost the taxpayers tens of millions of euro? Does anyone ever take responsibility for them?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The manager is accountable and answerable to his elected council. The manager's accounts are audited by the local government audit service and presented annually to the elected members.

Is that the present or the previous manager?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The manager for the time being must take responsibility for the inheritance of the job.

That is ridiculous. What happens if the person who was there when the decisions were made is no longer there? Can anyone answer such questions? I cannot get the answers to them anywhere. Does anyone ever take responsibility for grave errors of judgment, which Ms Tallon tells us have nothing to do with the Department because it was not involved in the scheme? Does anyone take responsibility for grave errors of judgment made at local level? I ask this in general about all cases on the list.

We hear a great deal about doing things in the most cost-effective way. Has the Department a role in seeing that the conciliation and arbitration process is carried out in the most cost-effective manner? County managers will say they employ the best legal advice and other services. However, the taxpayers are paying for it. The small firm to which I referred does not have the means to employ such services. The owner must lay off staff to fund a case which, I am convinced, will be similar to the Galway case. We will, nevertheless, pay our county managers and directors of services a bounty for the way they have handled the county finances in the previous year. There is something seriously wrong in the way this is done.

The conciliator who dealt with the two cases to which I refer has an otherwise 100% record. These are the only two which went to arbitration. Something is seriously wrong with regard to these cases. There must be a role for the Department to investigate such cases and to ask county councils what is going on.

I may have inadvertently misled the committee in saying a negotiator took part in this case. There was, in fact, no negotiation. However, I tried to arrange meetings between officials and the claimants in an attempt to sort the matter out. I believe it could be sorted out and does not need to go to arbitration. At one point, the difference between the amount sought by the claimant and that recommended by the conciliator and senior members of the county council was only €2.15 million. The case will cost considerably more than that. I do not understand how a public body can abuse public funds in this way.

I quote Ms Tallon:

The contracts contain a mechanism for resolving difficulties that may arise, whether regarding costs or other contractual matters. The dispute resolution process provided for in standard contracts involves negotiation in the first instance, then, if required, the process moves on to conciliation and arbitration. Ultimately, matters may be referred to the courts.

In the Eyre Square case, did the Department have any involvement in recommending one process rather than another or was that decision taken solely by officials of the local authority?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The Department had no involvement in the chain of decision making in the Eyre Square case. As Ms Moylan has said, the case is not concluded. It is our understanding that issues are outstanding and that arbitration is ongoing as far as Eyre Square is concerned.

If senior officials from Galway city were here, I suspect they would say that every step they took was taken on the basis of consultation and discussion with the Department. The decisions may have been taken by the council officials but was the Department working behind the scenes? Our experience is that local authorities blame the Department while the Department says it was not the contracting body. I have never heard of a county manager making a big decision without saying he or she consulted the Department at every step of the way. The Department did not sign off on the contract but do you understand what I am saying? Did the local authority officials have the comfort of discussion with the Department before they made decisions?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I understand the point you are making, Chairman, and I understand the frustration elected members feel in a situation like this if there is a sense that we are passing the buck backward and forward. That is not the case here. This is a fundamentally different type of programme from our own capital programmes. It is a grant scheme.

Who paid the grant?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The urban renewal scheme is a grant scheme. The water services programme and the housing programme are capital programmes with virtually 100% Exchequer funding, and the Department is closely involved at every step of the way.

I would not like to create a sense that we are not conscious of and careful with the responsibility we carry for Exchequer funding or that we do not reflect carefully on issues and areas which go to conciliation and arbitration. We recognise that there are lessons to be learned. We learned significant and serious lessons from the Limerick main drainage case, with which you are familiar, Chairman, and which was examined by the Committee of Public Accounts earlier this year. We had an independent assessment of the Department's role in the case. Arising from that we have intensified the approach to risk assessment at various stages of dispute resolution.

The Exchequer, the Department of Finance and my Department are all conscious of the management of public funding of capital works and capital programmes. The contract system has changed from one based on variable-price contracts to one largely based on fixed-price lump sum contracts, which largely eliminate the room for dispute of the kinds we have experienced in the housing and water programmes and which we have discussed.

I fully accept the Department had no involvement in the three stages of this matter. I have not received an answer to my final question. Who investigates negligence in duties? Has action ever been taken with regard to officials found to be negligent who have cost taxpayers several tens of millions of euro? Is there ever a follow-up or does the Department wash its hands of this also? Has the Department any involvement in establishing negligence, if any, in a case such as this?

In the Galway case, arbitration is now complete.

An aspect of it has gone to court but some issues are still in arbitration.

Would officials accept that the county manager, or someone within Galway City Council, made an error in that case?

If I could get an answer, I would not talk any more.

We are happy to assist in every way possible.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I am not in a position to pass judgment in this case because I have not been involved with it and as yet, a final conclusion has not been arrived at. Ultimately, the facts and figures of that project will be examined by the local government audit service as part of Galway city accounts. That audit report will be provided to the elected members of Galway City Council, together with the manager's response, so the ultimate arbiter of performance in this project will be the elected council of Galway city.

Has the local government auditor a duty or responsibility to take action against a person whom he finds was negligent, or does it fall on the elected members to deal with it? Unfortunately I am no longer an elected member. What action can the local government auditor take in the matter?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The local government auditor will examine the accounts that relate to the implementation of the project. The local government auditor will not rule one way or another on the performance of individuals but will look at the proper accounting, management and value for money of capital work of this kind.

Is Ms Tallon saying it is a matter for the local elected members to take action on the matter? What action is open to elected members?

Have elected members the powers to address these matters? Ms Tallon states that the auditor's report, together with the manager's response, is referred to the elected members. What powers do elected members have under the law?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I would have to refer to the Local Government Act 2001, which covers the appointment, tenure and so on of managers.

Will Ms Tallon revert to me on that?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Yes.

I wish to record my concern about the transparency and accountability of managing this project.

There have been significant losses to local authorities arising from claims for contracts that have gone wrong. Ultimately the person who makes the decision must be held accountable. I am concerned to learn that elected members must take a view on those decisions, but their powers are another matter. Is there a requirement on managers to consult with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government or the corporate policy group of their respective local authority before taking decisions to proceed with conciliation or arbitration? If councillors are not in the loop at an early stage in the process, is it not very hard to form a view at the end of the process? I would be delighted to hear the comments of the Secretary General on that observation.

I am aware of contracts in my constituency of Waterford, such as a seven villages sewerage scheme which has been lodged with the Department for some years. Let us take a hypothetical situation. Should a difficulty arise in one of the seven villages, where the contractor had to go to conciliation and arbitration, does that affect the contract or are they totally separate applications to the Department? I am aware the local authorities were encouraged to bring a number of smaller schemes together and make a single large application to the Department. What are the chances if one of the contracts should go to arbitration, as I would certainly hope it would not, affecting all the others?

Let me put myself in the position of a legal adviser employed by the local authority to enter into a conciliation process. On the completion of the conciliation process, a recommendation is made, but the decision rests with the local authority to accept or reject the recommendation. Is it not in the interest of the legal adviser to move it to arbitration and keep the case going as he or she is on the gravy train and getting more money? Who monitors those providing legal advice and who decides on their fees?

In the case in County Kildare that is going to arbitration, my only interest is to protect jobs, as I could see that the company would lose out — and it has had to lay off staff — to defend itself against the local authority, which has unlimited access to professional and legal advice. From what I see I do not believe anybody monitors them. At the end of the day if the local authority is not able to pay the bill, who pays it?

Is Ms Tallon aware of actions having been taken against the professional advisers or consultants to local authorities, such as quantity surveyors and technical staff who helped draw up the bill of quantities, to recover any money ? Most local authorities have consultant engineers on a job to advise them and manage the project. Have moneys ever been recovered from professional indemnity insurance?

In her statement Ms Tallon states: "To assist local authorities further in this regard, the Department is developing a guidance and risk template which will be completed this year". If there is no commercially-sensitive information involved, could she provide the joint committee with a copy of the template when it is ready so that we understand the process? It probably would be beneficial to contractors to see the template by which they were being judged. If they knew the template, perhaps they would make an earlier call.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We can certainly make the guidance and risk template available to the committee. It has been developed at this stage and it is going through the final assessment, legal proofing and so forth.

At local authority level, managers are required to produce a programme of capital works annually for the year upcoming and the following three years, so that provides an opportunity for elected members to look at estimates and budgetary development in a fully informed context. The management of individual contracts within the overall programme would be a matter for the executive in a local authority.

In response to the question on bundled schemes, the seven village sewerage scheme would be the subject of a single contract for design, build and operate on the basis that it is the most efficient and cost-effective way to proceed. We have approximately 60 scheme bundles at various stages of development in progress, planning and we have a small amount of experience in completion at this stage. We have had no incidence of a design, build and operate, DBO, bundle going to conciliation or arbitration at this point.

We have specific scales of fees for engineering advice and there are standards for consultancies. I am not aware of a specific scale of fees which applies to legal advice on contracts. The issues which arise may be significant and fundamental or only minor in the context of the advice required.

The question as to whether legal or other advisers were open to challenge was looked at very closely in the Limerick case but the determination was made that there was no basis for action. Depending on where one stands, one may take the view that advisers are wrong in particular instances but there is a distinction between saying a person is wrong and that he or she has been negligent. I am not aware of any case in which the latter might have applied but we will provide the committee with the guidance and risk template.

Is there a tendering process? Do solicitors or barristers have to tender for contracts to represent the county council at conciliation or arbitration or are they hired willy-nilly at whatever price they charge?

Mr. Terry Allen

For all water services schemes the engineering consultants are procured via a competitive process. They are required to submit proposals through a competition and attend an interview to run a particular scheme. For general legal services, a county council would normally have a retained solicitor but, where specialist advice is required, practitioners are procured separately and a scale of fees is agreed. I am not sure if they are taken on via a competitive process. For contract and construction law, very few solicitors are competent to advise at a high level; therefore, there is no scope for innovation in the way councils take on advisers. The vast bulk of the advice received by local authorities is at engineering level, which is all procured competitively.

Mr. Allen said the risk assessment was being undertaken by an independent body. How does it take place? Surely one cannot stop a project and commence a procurement process to hire a firm to carry out an independent assessment. How can it be done quickly?

Mr. Terry Allen

Some half a dozen firms are competent at a high level in the field of construction law. The answer is to employ a firm which has no previous involvement with either party and has done no previous work on the scheme, with either the local authority or the contractor.

It would not be necessary to go through normal public procurement procedures. On what basis is that the case?

Mr. Terry Allen

On the basis that the value of the contract is below the threshold for public procurement competitions.

What is that threshold?

Mr. Terry Allen

It depends on the project; there are various thresholds.

What is a ballpark figure?

Mr. Terry Allen

Perhaps €225,000 or €250,000. Generally, the cost of the advice we seek would not be of that order.

I think we have gone as far as we can in teasing out the issue. Individual disputes have to take their own path; some of them are subject to arbitration and others to the judgment of the courts. We cannot adjudicate on them, as that is not our function. The teasing out of the process has been beneficial to members.

As a layperson, it appears very unfair that a local authority has access to an unlimited amount of funding to put a small company out of business. I am not referring to just one case but know of small companies which do not even go to the trouble of contesting a dispute because they know the local authority will best them and bully them throughout the process. During the referendum campaign a few years ago the McKenna case came before the courts——

It is a David and Goliath scenario.

It is and there seems to be an injustice.

Perhaps we will place the issue on our agenda. It might benefit the committee to have a local government auditor come before us to make a presentation on these matters. An auditor might be precluded by legislation from appearing before us or it might not be appropriate. He or she might give us an observation and answer a few questions on legal costs and professional fees charged by local authorities. I would like to know the cost relative to that of the projects involved. Is the local government auditor a he, a she or a committee?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

It is a he.

We can be hard on him.

We will ask the clerk to the committee to check whether the auditor in question is within the remit of the committee.

I thank Ms Tallon and her officials for attending. They have been very helpful and informative in giving us an understanding of where we stand in this difficult situation.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.55 p.m. until 3.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 4 November 2008.
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