JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, HERITAGE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Tuesday, 20 Jan 2009

Business of Joint Committee.

Chairman

The minutes of the meeting of 13 January have been circulated. Are they agreed? Agreed. I draw the committee's attention to correspondence received from Councillor Martin Miley Jnr., Fontstown, Athy, County Kildare, who wrote to us a while back. Copies of his correspondence have again been circulated by the clerk. We decided to defer the issue for consideration at a future meeting.

The next item on the agenda is correspondence. The first item, No. 298, is about press cuttings from the Oireachtas Library and Research Service for Members. We will note this correspondence.

The next item, No. 303, is about domestic wastewater treatment systems. It is a reply following a referral by the committee as regards written concerns received from Biocycle Limited. We are drafting a report on individual wastewater treatment systems and will take this correspondence into consideration in drafting it.

No. 304 is the annual report of the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland, which we will note.

Deputy James Bannon

Is it possible for us to have a debate on radiation?

Chairman

We can issue an invitation to the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland which is included in our list but has never appeared before the committee. We shall put it on the list and arrange for its representatives to come on a suitable date. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The next item, No. 305, concerns the UK Parliamentary Committee report on "greener homes". We will note this corresponce.

No. 306 is a newsletter from the European Urban Knowledge Network which we will note. No. 307 concerns the scrutiny of proposals for legislation at EU level. As the correspondence contains nothing specific for us, we shall just note it. The next item, No. 308, is a newsletter on homelessness, which we will also note.

No. 309 is a letter from Lochan Construction Limited, County Carlow, calling for a change in current legislation on the period of planning permission. We have written a reply. We previously dealt with an identical letter from another company in Wexford. As there is planning legislation scheduled for later in the year, the matter is being considered in that light.

Deputy Phil Hogan

Will we send the same letter as before?

Chairman

We shall because it makes the same point.

No. 310 is an environmental policy update newsletter from GLOBE Europe, which we will we note. No. 311 is an Institute of Public Health newsletter, which we will aslo note.

No. 312 is correspondence about waste management from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. It concerns SI 556/2008 to do with the Waste Management (Batteries and Accumulators)(Amendment) Regulations 2008. We have always asked to be notified of statutory instruments. It seems to be a routine item.

The next item, No. 313, is from the same Department and concerns SI 557/2008 to do with the Shannon Town Boundary Alteration Order 2008. The matter has been agreed at local level.

No. 314 is a letter from the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in reply to the committee's request to have the date for grant aid under the farm waste management scheme extended. As we know this has not been done, all we can do is note the correspondence. Any member can use the letter in reply to representations. Even though members have been in contact with the Minister, as we know, there has been no extension.

Deputy James Bannon

A special case should have been made for the people concerned who, through no fault of their own, could not proceed with their development because of a planning hold-up within the local authority. The Minister should review those cases where people have been denied grant assistance. He has not referred to the matter.

Chairman

We wrote to him but got no hop. The issue of an extension came up in December and we all wrote to him on that basis. We also wrote to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government but did not get anywhere. Members might want to table parliamentary questions on behalf of individual constituents to show that they at least raised the matter. We raised it here but did not receive a response. I have used copies of the letter in local correspondence to pass on the bad news.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

I know from where Deputy Bannon is coming. People applied for planning permission and were held up substantially through the planning process. Many of them had to force the work through in good and bad weather to get it done on time. We talk about job creation. This was a very good programme which was well run and managed. Local authorities should consider submissions made according to a timescale and where there is a deadline. As part of the planning process, county councils should deal with such cases as expeditiously as possible but they have not done so in these cases.

Deputy Johnny Brady

As Chairman of the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, I know we had numerous meetings and requests on this issue——

Chairman

I am sorry for cutting across the Deputy's brief.

Deputy Johnny Brady

This is an issue that has arisen time and again with the Minister and his officials at our meetings. Every effort was made by the committee, as well as by the Minister and his officials, to try to have the scheme extended but, unfortunately, the European Union would not extend it. I have even seen a letter from one of our MEPs who brought up the matter at the European Parliament where she was told the very same story. Unfortunately, it was not extended. I fully agree with Deputy Fitzpatrick that the county councils should be more forthcoming. I cannot understand the situation. It was always the excuse of the county councils that they were short of planners and could not get them. Then, at the first opportunity, they let them go and brought in consultants to draw up development plans. The situation with regard to planning in local authorities and local government is crazy. Perhaps we will have a chance today to discuss the issue with the auditor but I cannot understand the situation. At the first opportunity, county councils let overseers or road workers go, or when they retire, they are not replaced. If it is a county manager, a director of services, an engineer or somebody at grade 6, 7 or 8, they are replaced immediately, but when it is someone down the line, they are not. It is time for rapid change. It is not good enough.

Deputy James Bannon

I know of cases where the local authority cannot be blamed. Planning permission was granted by the local authority but, for some reason, individuals took the planning application granted by the local authority to An Bord Pleanála. Very few are affected. There is a statutory period within which An Bord Pleanála makes a decision. I propose we contact the local authorities to obtain statistical information and ascertain how many are affected. I know of the cases of at least two people in County Longford in which planning permission was granted by the local authority but the matter was then referred to An Bord Pleanála, which is where the delay occured. Perhaps we could get some idea of how many are affected.

Chairman

We can ask the Department whether it can obtain the information.

Deputy James Bannon

That would be appreciated.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

I thought the Chairman was going to write to the local authorities. I was going to suggest——

Chairman

No, we will write to the Minister.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

This committee is interested in job creation and employment. In my local authority a serious problem has arisen where the county manager has decided to let all the temporary staff go — he will let 80 people go between now and the end of March. A number of the people concerned are working on the roads. What will happen? In one case that I dealt with this morning a young man who has a wife on disability benefit had only one day to work to reach four years service with Kildare County Council which would give him entitlements, but he is being let go before that fourth anniversary. It is wrong that local authorities act in this way. I have not seen any discussion in the local newspapers in which county councillors have been informed of what is happening or the procedures management is following. I understand the procedure is different in all local authorities. Perhaps this is an issue in which we should have an interest.

Deputy James Bannon

I do not want to cut across the Deputy but I am in regular contact with councillors and meet them on a monthly basis. The big problem for local authority members is inadequate funding from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. That is where the problem lies. That is not the fault of elected members. There is a shortage of funding.

Senator Camillus Glynn

What role, if any, does the Ombudsman, have in the planning process?

Chairman

I will answer that question. The Ombudsman has a role as to whether planning applications were processed according to proper procedures, for example, whether applicants received proper notification, whether a person arrived half an hour late to lodge an objection or an appeal. The Ombudsman does not deal with the planning issues involved but with the administration of the file. The Office of the Ombudsman can find and has often found that a local authority or An Bord Pleanála has not processed the file properly, but it does not deal with the planning issues involved. It does not have a remit to overturn a planning authority decision. I have seen cases listed in its annual report in which it has asked a local authority to pay token compensation to a person who felt aggrieved at not being properly treated.

Deputy James Bannon

A few hundred euro.

Chairman

Yes, small stuff.

Senator Camillus Glynn

Questions arise when a decision of the local authority is reversed. I know of a case in which the local authority granted planning permission which was overturned by An Bord Pleanála. To my knowledge, this was due to a photograph taken from an aeroplane. If that is appraising a planning application in the appropriate way, I am a Dutchman.

I would like the Ombudsman to have a more involved role to ensure all aspects of the planning process are adhered to. One will not always receive the answer one wants when one makes representations on planning applications which is a dangerous thing to do in the light of what has happened in recent years. However, I still do it and will continue to do so for my constituents as long as I am in public life, without apology to anybody. Certain practices obtain that are not appropriate or just. In fact, they are unjust, particularly to young people.

We all talk about rural development which is driven by people, not by jackdaws, crows, pigeons and squirrels, although they are part of the flora and fauna and it is great to have them, but that is another debate. However, in ensuring services are available in rural areas and that our schools, churches, post offices and so on remain open, we need people. What is happening, to my knowledge, is not right and proper.

Chairman

Is the Senator referring to An Bord Pleanála?

Senator Camillus Glynn

Yes.

Chairman

Does the Senator want the committee to write a letter to the Ombudsman asking her to outline her role in the planning process?

Senator Camillus Glynn

Yes.

Chairman

We will ask her to outline her role in the planning process.

Senator Camillus Glynn

Perhaps if the role is too restricted in the opinion of the committee——

Chairman

We will consider the response.

Senator Camillus Glynn

Perhaps the joint committee will make suggestions to augment their involvement.

Chairman

We will consider the response when we get it.

The decision in respect of the issue on farm waste management is to write to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to ascertain whether it can obtain information pertaining to any planning applications regarding the waste management schemes that have been sent to An Bord Pleanála. I refer to the number of applications that have gone to An Bord Pleanála. Members will take it from there. Moreover, we will ask whether the Department can provide such data on a county by county basis, if possible. It will be a hard request for it to answer because——

Deputy James Bannon

Members seek statistical information.

Chairman

We will ask for that on a county by county basis.

Deputy Phil Hogan

It should have such information.

Chairman

We will ask for that on a county by county basis.

The next item on the agenda is No. 315, which pertains to a statutory instrument, the Electricity Regulation Act 1999 (Electricity) Levy Order 2008. This correspondence was sent to the joint committee out of courtesy and members have no particular role in this regard. I do not discern its precise relevance to this joint committee. The next item pertains to a similar type of statutory instrument relating to gas regulation. If members have an interest in such statutory instruments, they should follow them up independently.

The next item, No. 317, concerns an e-mail from Deputy Hogan requesting that the Dublin Docklands Development Authority should be invited before the joint committee to make a presentation and to engage in a question and answer session.

Deputy Phil Hogan

My motivation for writing to the Chairman about this issue is that although this authority is under the remit of the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and this joint committee, its representatives have not yet appeared before members. However, it would be highly appropriate to invite representatives from the authority to appear before the joint committee, given what is going on at present with Anglo Irish Bank.

Chairman

Is there a connection?

Deputy Phil Hogan

There is a connection with the various people who were on the boards of directors of each company. Moreover, the manner in which the company was run and the authority's policy position in respect of property transactions are matters about which members have questions to ask and the answers members might receive would be interesting. In any event, the authority should be invited before the joint committee in the context of an annual report. However, such a meeting would be highly relevant at present in the context of the lending practices in the financial institutions associated with some of the developments in that authority.

Chairman

Within its area.

Deputy Phil Hogan

Yes. The joint committee should write to the authority and invite its representatives to appear in two or three weeks' time or as soon as practicable.

Chairman

That is fine and I will be happy to do that. We will arrange a suitable time.

No. 318 on the agenda pertains to circulars issued by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to county registrars, as well as city and county sheriffs, regarding preparations for the elections to the European Parliament. In addition, a circular has been issued requesting details of the cost regarding the storage of the electronic voting machines for 2008.

Deputy James Bannon

On that issue, are there limitations on what a candidate in the local elections can spend?

Chairman

No, but I understand the Minister has indicated that he intends to bring forward early legislation to deal with it. However, there is none at present.

Senator Camillus Glynn

Will the Deputy be a candidate? That would be going back to the roots.

Chairman

That is the end of——

Deputy Phil Hogan

Not since Senator Glynn's party abolished the dual mandate.

Senator Camillus Glynn

The best job that ever was done.

Chairman

We will move on to the next item that I wish to deal with under correspondence. The clerk has circulated details to members of three forthcoming conferences, namely, the AMAI spring seminar in County Donegal to be held on Friday, 13 and Saturday, 14 February, a waste management conference in Vienna to be held from 15 to 17 April and an international local government conference to be held in Killarney from 3 to 6 March. Members who are interested should contact the clerk and we will establish the level of interest. Members have to hand details of the three conferences.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

I wish to indicate an interest in that.

Chairman

Which one?

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

The Killarney conference.

Chairman

Very well. The Deputy should contact the clerk and thereafter we will make a travel proposal and a costing, depending on the level of interest.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

I am interested in the Donegal conference.

Chairman

Deputy Fitzpatrick is proposing to attend the AMAI spring seminar in Donegal. I ask him to contact the clerk separately. Having ascertained the numbers, we can make a travel proposal.

The next item I wish to deal with is the work programme for 2009 as the joint committee should formulate such a programme before it publishes its annual report. A draft programme has been circulated to members and members who have not had an opportunity to consider it should note we wish to sign off on it at the next meeting. It simply consists of a page or two of topics for discussion for the year and would only entail spending a couple of minutes on it.

Deputy Phil Hogan

That will be easier after the Dáil reconvenes.

Chairman

Yes, we are getting back by degrees.

As those items on the agenda have been dealt with, I will suspend the meeting for a moment while we invite in the witnesses pertaining to the local government audit service.

Sitting suspended at 2.55 p.m. and resumed at 2.57 p.m.