JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, HERITAGE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate

Vice Chairman (Deputy Padraic McCormack)

We have received apologies from the Chairman, Deputy Seán Fleming.

The first item is the minutes of the proceedings of 17 November which were circulated. Are they agreed? Agreed. The next is correspondence circulated after the last meeting. No. 664 is electronic voting. The Department of Environment, Heritage and Local Government replied to a query raised in this committee, of which a copy is attached. We note the correspondence. No. 665 is the €200 charge for non-principal private residence. The views of the Irish Farmers Association on the annual charge will be addressed by the Department at this meeting. Its representatives will attend later. We note the correspondence. No. 666 is the Poolbeg incinerator. The Irish Waste Management Association made a submission on thermal incineration and a report on plans to build the Poolbeg incinerator.

Deputy Phil Hogan

A major review of waste management policy was carried out by the Minister which reported only last week. I understand it contains 1,000 pages. I got the summary. I believe our work programme in January will include a requirement to bring in all the players to see what is happening with regard to waste management. By that stage, the Department will have had a chance to digest the report. I propose, as part of our work programme, that we invite all the players in the waste management industry, perhaps including Dublin City Council, to a discussion of the Poolbeg issue and waste management policy in general around the country.

Vice Chairman

Is that agreed?

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

I concur with that proposal. It is only fair and right to invite all the people interested in the Poolbeg project and waste issues. The Minister issued statements about it.

Vice Chairman

Would our list include the Minister?

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

Perhaps it should.

Vice Chairman

He has an interest in it. Is that agreed? Agreed. No. 667 is Europe's World Newsletter No. 40 2009. We note the correspondence. No. 668 is sustainable development at local level, a ministerial press release by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government on approval of grants for 2009, Local Agenda 21, Environment Partnership Fund. We note the correspondence. No. 669 is tidal energy. The Trade Commissioner for Canada provided a note of an Irish green energy firm installing one of the first tidal energy generators of its kind off the Canadian coast and notice of its fundraising. We note the correspondence. No. 670 is newletters on environmental issues; GLOBE European policy update No. 133 and two GLOBE-Net magazines. I note the correspondence. No. 671 is a list of proposals for EU legislation and a list of decisions taken at the meeting on 17 November, sent for information only. The correspondence is noted. The IHRC, Irish Human Rights Commission, extends an invitation to the fourth annual human rights lecture by Seamus Heaney, Nobel Laureate, at 6 p.m. on Wednesday 9 December in the National Gallery for anyone who wishes to go. The correspondence is noted. No. 673 is a ministerial press release on the launch of guidelines to protect biodiversity in the industry. The correspondence is noted. Circular 09/05 relates to a social housing leasing initiative of approved housing bodies.

The next item on the agenda is an invitation to attend a conference in Canada next March, the dates of which have been e-mailed by the clerk with an estimate of the costs. Registration is 500 Canadian dollars and cheaper if completed by 11 December. This is an international conference on the environment and was attended by the committee in 2008. It is north America's largest sustainable business event. The conference will explore the issues at the heart of corporate sustainability, global energy and environment priorities, emerging environment markets and the future of sustainable urban development. Are there any expressions of interest for attendance at the conference?

Deputy James Bannon

The cost appears to be economical and it is an important event. I suggest we consider the possibility of sending two people.

Vice Chairman

Is the Deputy indicating his interest?

Deputy James Bannon

I have been there in the past and it worked out very well.

Vice Chairman

Senator Glynn also expressed an interest at the last meeting.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

I propose that Senator Glynn and Deputy Bannon should attend.

Vice Chairman

Deputy Bannon and Senator Glynn will attend the conference. Is that agreed? Agreed. No better men for it. We will apply to the working group of committee chairs for approval and funding. They will travel business class with Air Canada via Heathrow. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I refer to the prohibition on turf cutting. This follows from the meeting on 17 November 2009.

Deputy Phil Hogan

As everyone is aware, this is a significant problem in respect of flooding nationally. It is opportune for the committee to reflect the experiences and concerns of people, as we have done in the Dáil in the past 24 hours. It is important that we learn lessons from this episode when the flood waters recede. We learned lessons previously which, perhaps, were not followed up when the sun began to shine again.

There appears to be very little co-ordination between the agencies responding to the problem of flooding. They should come before the committee to explain their role. The committee should be proactive and ensure the necessary aid package announced will be targeted at those in urgent need of assistance and that there is more to come. The committee should be briefed, whether by community welfare officers, the Red Cross or other agencies involved in the distribution of the aid, in respect of how the assistance, financial or otherwise, will be deployed as quickly as possible. The other issues of infrastructural damage, early warning systems and all related matters can be left for another day. However, the immediate task of the committee should be to seek clarification on how assistance, whether financial, humanitarian or otherwise, can be given as soon as possible to the people.

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

I agree with Deputy Hogan. We should recognise the good work done by the various organisations, including the local authorities, the Civil Defence and the Army. Everyone was on board to try to help out. No one could have imagined the devastation that took place. While it is bad to see one's farm shed flooded, I do not know how one might feel if one saw water rising to three or four feet in one's house. Deputy Hogan is correct to suggest when this is over we should meet the relevant organisations to establish if the response can be improved, but perhaps it cannot. Perhaps more early warning signs should be in place and people should be notified earlier such that they could react more quickly. Everyone listened to the forecast and was warned about the heavy rains but no one dreamt the devastation could be as bad as it was. I agree with Deputy Hogan.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I propose we hold a special meeting of the committee. There is a scheduled meeting next Tuesday for other business, but could we hold a special meeting at the earliest possible opportunity, even tomorrow, for the purposes of discussing this matter?

Vice Chairman

Deputy Naughten wishes to speak but I agree with the sentiments by the two Deputies. Often, early action can save much difficulty. I have a bee in my bonnet about all the obstacles in place. There are several small areas where local drainage schemes could solve the problem if they were allowed to proceed. I speak from my experiences in south Galway in 1995 when a school was closed for six weeks because it was flooded and under two feet of water. The local people established a scheme, encouraged by Deputy Hogan, who was a Minister of State with responsibility for the Office of Public Works at the time. He guaranteed the money for the scheme and it cost £120,000. It involved building a channel, from turlough to turlough, and extended for five miles away to the sea at Killinarden. I was there on Monday evening and not one drop of water was in the school or on the road that was closed for nine weeks and which was under eight feet of water at that time, cutting off access for the people.

Local schemes can solve many problems if people are allowed to proceed. As Deputy Hogan will recall, every possible obstacle was put in the way of the progress of the scheme to which I refer, by the wildlife section of the Office of Public Works. It discovered bats that had not lived there for thousands of years and everything else. This was despite the fact that it was an official scheme. The section came out, monitored and stopped progress at every level. This included delaying the council from issuing the necessary road opening licences because the scheme had to cross several county roads. It is very important to call the relevant people before the committee and I would be very pleased to meet some of the people I met at that time.

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

I fully agree with the Vice-Chairman and it is time we started putting people before birds, fish and snails.

Deputy Denis Naughten

I was going to refer to turf cutting but there is a related aspect on the agenda of the committee meeting.

Vice Chairman

If Deputy Hogan had been the Minister for the past 12 years the whole place would be drained.

Deputy Frank Feighan

It would be too dry.

Deputy Denis Naughten

There is an ongoing problem with the maintenance of the River Shannon and I realise the Chairman has agreed to bring the various participants before the committee to deal with the issue. Funding was allocated to carry out maintenance on the Shannon for the first time since the foundation of the State. We faced the same problem. The NPWS, National Parks and Wildlife Service, came along and stopped work after the diggers landed on site at Banagher. This is on the agenda to be dealt with and it would be helpful if a time slot were allocated for this at some stage to deal with this specific aspect of the problem. I realise there is a greater issue in respect of co-ordination and so on and a detailed OPW report has been completed on that issue.

Deputy James Bannon

I concur with everything that has been said and I compliment Deputy Hogan on using our party's time in the Dáil to debate this very important issue, which is of great concern to all of us. Government policy has forced people to build on lowlands throughout the years. I was brought to a house on Saturday evening where the occupants were forced to build on lowlands rather than on a prime site on their farm. They presented me with an ordinance survey map dating from 1913 showing a flood plain in the area. Nevertheless they were forced by the planner of the local authority to build on a flood plain rather than on a prime site. This shows that Government policy was wrong. The planners did not go along with this policy. The loss of the Garda barracks in my county, Longford, had a serious effect on the county. The gardaí were there in the past to provide sandbags to the people who were threatened by flood, but that did not happen this time because there was no barracks in the town.

Deputy Denis Naughten

Does the Deputy mean the Army barracks?

Deputy James Bannon

Yes, the Army barracks not the Garda barracks. The absence of the barracks has proved a great loss to the county. The Minister for Defence must take some responsibility for this issue.

Vice Chairman

The Deputy is running away from the flooding issue.

Deputy Denis Naughten

He is floating into the wind.

Vice Chairman

We shall start with turf-cutting.

Deputy James Bannon

In 1991 at a meeting in Athlone we were promised a River Shannon authority which never materialised and we see the result because there is no proper management of the Shannon system. Silt and vegetation have built up over the years which militate against——

Vice Chairman

I must bring members back to the item on the agenda which is the prohibition on turf-cutting.

Deputy Phil Hogan

Have we agreed to deal with the flooding decision?

Vice Chairman

Yes. If the members feel strongly we will invite the Minister in to meet the committee.

Deputy James Bannon

We have called for a long time for the establishment of a Shannon authority. This would be essential legislation for the midlands and the management of the River Shannon. It has never materialised and it needs to be dealt with.

Vice Chairman

I want a decision on whether to invite the Minister.

Deputy Frank Feighan

There has to be an independent investigation. Some communities feel hard done by because locks were opened upstream and others were closed downstream. There needs to be more transparency about these activities. The committee should call for an independent investigation into all the events around the country.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

Remedial works were always being carried out on our rivers and waterways. For whatever reason they seemed to stop in recent years. One might point a finger at places where remedial work was done and that helped the situation. We must examine many more places which have suffered in recent years and will suffer again as the flooding becomes more prevalent and more frequent.

Our planners have a great deal to answer for because in my experience they put us into the lowest place possible when they visit sites where people want to build houses. Water always flows into the hole. We should address this when the committee discusses this issue. We have a great deal of high land on which one can build that would not be prone to flooding. We must examine this in our towns. I do not understand why every town I know is built in the bottom of a saucer of land. This merits discussion at a full meeting.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

I welcome the proposed debate on this issue and the debate we had last night was very encouraging. We have been considering drainage on a county, regional and national basis. There are several boards responsible for drainage, such as the Barrow and the Boyne drainage boards. I am not sure about the Shannon.

Deputy Denis Naughten

There is the Suck drainage board.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

What work have these boards done or have they carried out their functions in accordance with the mandates given to them? Maybe we should ask the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to call these people in and perhaps we could share that meeting to consider and debate the whole issue. Then we could speak to the County Managers Association to find out what it has done.

I support the call to have an inquiry into improving the drainage system nationally. The people on the ground, those on small farms in Galway and Mayo, are very concerned at not having been consulted about drainage and they have come up with ideas to contribute to improving the drainage system.

JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, HERITAGE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate - Wednesday, 25 Nov 2009

Business of Joint Committee.

JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, HERITAGE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Wednesday, 25 Nov 2009