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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, TRANSPORT, CULTURE AND THE GAELTACHT debate -
Tuesday, 24 Jan 2012

Irish Water and Related Reforms: Discussion

I welcome the Minister of State responsible for the NewERA programme in the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Fergus O'Dowd, and officials from the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, Mr. Mark Griffin, assistant secretary in the water planning division, Mr. Ivan Grimes, principal officer in water services policy, Ms Maria Graham, principal officer in the water services investment programme and Mr. Gerry Galvin, principal adviser in the water and planning division. I thank them for attending.

I draw people's attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2) (l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in regard to a particular matter and you continue to do so you are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that where possible, you should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also wish to advise you that the opening statements you have submitted to the committee will be published on the committee’s website after this meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or any official either by name, or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Before I call on the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dowd, to begin, I will make an opening statement. Today is the last public session to which we have invited witnesses to attend and address the committee on the overall topic of water provision. Today's conclusion, at this stage of the process, is very timely given what appears to be an imminent announcement of a new body to oversee the administration of the provision of water in Ireland and related matters Over the next month the committee will review the evidence it has gathered and will use it as the basis of a report which will be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas and be presented to the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan. Members realise the importance of this issue and are committed to ensuring the Government makes the right decisions that are fair and equitable to all while guaranteeing water supply and the funding necessary to secure its delivery, cleanliness and availability in adequate quantities. In completion of its considerations, the committee will make several proposals to achieve these objectives. I hope the Minister, Deputy Hogan, and the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dowd, will examine them in a positive light and adopt them. This concludes a process that commenced in July 2011.

I look forward to the committee's final report on water provision and would be delighted to discuss any issues which arise at a later stage. I am joined by officials from the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government: Mr. Mark Griffin, assistant secretary, water and ICT division; Mr. Ivan Grimes, water services policy section; Ms Maria Graham, principal officer, water services section; and Mr. Gerry Galvin, principal adviser over the Department's water inspectorate.

On Monday, 16 January, the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan, and I launched a six-week public consultation on a suite of fundamental reforms of the water sector which the Government is planning to introduce. These reforms include the establishment of a new public utility, Irish Water, to take over responsibility for the delivery of water services from local authorities, the introduction of water charges with a nationwide water metering programme to commence later this year and the introduction of independent economic regulation of the water sector under the Commission for Energy Regulation. These will bring about major change in the organisation of the delivery and funding of the water sector which the Government considers essential to improve the quality of service, increase the cost efficiency associated with water provision and conserve our national resource.

Over the past few months, this committee has heard from many stakeholders and experts involved in the water sector and will fully appreciate the context for these reforms. On the one hand, the committee will have heard of the impressive track record of the local government sector in delivering water service infrastructure and in addressing customer needs. This has been evidenced, for example, through the increase in capacity of both water and wastewater infrastructure over the past decade and the commitment shown in severe weather in responding to difficulties.

However, the committee will also have heard of the weaknesses in the existing system that need to be addressed and the challenges that lie ahead. We must address growing demands of enterprise and customers, support job creation and meet the requirements of the water framework directive and other environmental obligations as well as addressing the major problems of unaccounted for water.

All these will lead to substantial investment requirements at a time of very serious difficulty in the public finances. Ireland is privileged with a generally favourable ecological status of its water resources and the availability of raw water. Ireland's rich water resources will become of increasing strategic importance to the economy as the value of water increases globally. Work undertaken by the McKinsey water resources group shows that in just 20 years global demand for water will be 40% higher than it is today and more than 50% higher in most rapidly developing countries. By 2030, over a third of the world's population will be living in river basins that will have to cope with significant water stress.

Water is a vital requirement to support economic growth, social stability and environmental protection. In the competitive global markets, Ireland's valuable water resources have the capacity to position Ireland well in terms of competitiveness and to support the success of many water dependent sectors, such as pharmaceuticals, chemicals, food production and processing and technology sectors. Unless, however, we address key organisational and funding issues for the sector, we will constrain our capacity to continue to exploit this natural advantage to attract foreign direct investment, high-end employment and meet the needs and demands of our existing businesses and communities for high quality water and security of supply.

A specific requirement of the programme of financial support for Ireland with the EU-IMF-ECB is the preparation of proposals for implementation of the recommendations of an independent assessment of the transfer of responsibility for water service provision to a water utility and that water charges would be introduced. A team led by PricewaterhouseCoopers, which includes legal and engineering consultants, was appointed through an open competition to conduct the independent assessment.

The independent assessment has pointed to several weaknesses with the current system which need to be addressed to meet the challenges of the future. For example, the delivery through 34 separate water services authorities inevitably leads to some fragmentation, inefficiencies and the inability to secure advantages through economies of scale. The assessment also shows the system is too expensive in its operational costs per connection and loses too much water through leakage, and collection rates for non-domestic charges are too low.

Our financial model for the provision of water services is simply unsustainable with approximately €1.2 billion per annum in costs, a rising investment need and a very small revenue base. Our capacity to fund the future capital investment requirements from the Exchequer is severely constrained. The independent assessment recognises that, in common with other international norms, there will need to be a steady state of capital investment in water services, estimated at €600 million annually, together with provision for the backlog of investment required mainly to meet statutory obligations.

Within the current funding model, the Government's plan for infrastructure and capital investment 2012 to 2016, which accords a high priority to water services, still shows a decline in Exchequer capital investment in water and wastewater services from €435 million in 2011 to €371 million in 2012 and a further decline to €296 million by 2014. With this funding gap on the capital side and the ongoing and increasing costs of the current side, it is clear a sustainable funding model for water services needs to be developed. This must be a priority if we are serious about job creation, continuing to attract foreign direct investment and meeting our environmental compliance obligations. A public utility can build on local expertise and commitment to service, develop a sustainable financial model, leverage additional funding for investment and achieve efficiencies through economies of scale.

It is proposed Irish Water will be the water services authority and single point of contact for customers. Accordingly, it would be statutorily responsible for both investing and operating water services infrastructure in its role as a provider of drinking water and wastewater services to household, commercial and industrial customers. The authority will have responsibility for the abstraction, treatment and distribution of drinking water; the collection and treatment of wastewater; strategic planning for the sector including water resource management; sourcing private finance for investment in capital projects; the roll-out of the water metering programme; customer billing and relationship management including requests for new connections; and conservation of water supplies through maintaining and upgrading the infrastructure including investment on mains rehabilitation.

The utility will have a regional and local focus which will be achieved by organising operational regions based on river basin districts. Assets and liabilities of local authorities will be transferred to Irish Water and it would be responsible for collection of water charges, both domestic and non-domestic. This will provide an income stream to support third party funding of water services.

The proposed public utility model represents a major change with significant implications for local government and local authority staff, the water industry and its many stakeholders. The initial transition strategy envisages a staged approach involving appointment of an interim board and project management office in 2012 pending the establishment of Irish Water under its own statute by the middle of 2013. Then Irish Water will acquire statutory responsibility for water services with ownership of assets transferring from local authorities from that date. Local authorities would be agents of Irish Water for a period with Irish Water taking over their operations on a phased basis from January 2015. The full transfer of operations would be completed by the end of 2017. This transition will be the subject of further detailed analysis early this year leading to the development of a detailed implementation plan which will, among other things, take account of the work being undertaken by the Department and NewERA on whether, and in what manner, skills within the State sector can be harnessed for the successful implementation of the proposed water sector reforms.

Water services cost more than €1.2 billion to run in 2010, of which operational costs amounted to €715 million. We are the only country in the OECD where households do not pay directly for the water they use and this is no longer sustainable. A new funding model is required. The Government believes that metering is the fairest way to charge households for water. The introduction of volumetric water charges will provide households with an important incentive to reduce their consumption of water. International experience suggests the introduction of water meters can achieve a reduction in consumption of at least 10%. This will also reduce the operational costs of providing water services as well as providing longer term savings in requirements for capital investment.

The installation of meters will commence in 2012 and the programme will be rolled out on an accelerated basis. A strategy for procurement of the programme is being finalised by the Department and two key objectives will be to maximise value for money and facilitate to the greatest extent possible the scope for SME participation in the overall programme. It is envisaged that there will be national supply contracts for the procurement of boundary boxes and meters and 150 to 200 local installation contracts. Up to 2,000 jobs per annum will result from the metering programme. The installation of the meters is labour intensive, involving minor excavation and reinstatement works after the installation of the meter. This will provide much needed employment in the construction sector. The type of jobs involved will include general operatives, small excavator drivers, plumbers, fitters, supervisors, site agents, contract managers and accounts and administration staff. Once the metering programme has been completed, a steady level of capital investment of potentially €600 million per annum in water services, facilitated through a new public utility, Irish Water, will see this level of construction employment sustained on an ongoing basis through capital investment in new infrastructure.

There is no economic regulation of the water sector in Ireland. Water charges for the non-domestic use are set by individual local authorities with the rates being charged varying significantly. It is proposed that rather than establish a new regulator, economic regulation of the water sector will be managed under the CER. This is similar to the approach adopted in Northern Ireland where both energy and water are regulated under one economic regulator. The primary duty of the economic regulator will be to protect the interests of customers. This will be achieved by having an appropriate regulatory framework that is clearly enforced with the aim of ensuring efficiencies are driven, costs are reduced and these benefits are passed on to consumers. Cutting costs significantly from their current levels will be a key objective for the regulator. The Environmental Protection Agency will be the environmental regulator of Irish Water and the group water sector.

NewERA's vision is the capacity to deliver next generation infrastructure while creating employment in the long and short term and Irish Water is a critical component on delivering on this strategy. A high level of ambition will be set for the company. It will be asked to plan strategically for the decades ahead to ensure Ireland, which is rich in water resources, can continue to exploit this natural advantage to attract foreign direct investment and high end employment and meet the demands of our existing businesses and communities for high quality water and security of supply. These reforms represent a radical change for the sector and the Government is conscious of the need to manage the transition effectively. This requires a robust implementation plan and, therefore, comprehensive public consultation is being undertaken to inform the process. This will build on the useful stakeholder soundings undertaken as part of the independent assessment, which were an important contribution to the analysis in the recommendation to establish Irish Water as a public utility.

I thank the Minister of State for his presentation and his officials for attending. I am curious about the notion of setting up yet another body to administer water services. We have semi-State companies and local authorities. The Government has told us it will implement a programme to sell off State assets to reduce the size of the semi-State sector, yet it proposes to set up another semi-State body to deal with water services. I wonder about the logic of that. If major infrastructural projects need to be managed across counties, would a body such as Bord na Móna not be in a position to do so?

The second issue I wish to raise relates to responsibility, accountability, democracy and local ownership. An argument has been made about water quality. Local authorities I have dealt with, which have invested relatively small money in bore wells, have been successful at producing high quality water at a reasonably low cost in an efficient manner. There is accountability through elected representatives working with local authority management and the prevention of pollution is also addressed. Does the Minister of State agree that if the Government nationalises water supply, local ownership and responsibility, particularly for preventing pollution, will be weakened?

Performance varies from local authority to local authority but a number are doing an excellent job with few staff. I hope the Minister of State is aware of what happened in the North during the big freeze in the winter of 2010-11 when his home county had to supply water to County Down. One of the reasons for that was the British Government, prior to the re-establishment of the Northern Ireland Executive, decided to set up a utility company similar to Irish Water for the Six Counties, which was not under the control of elected representatives at either Assembly or local authority level. When the crisis hit, the elected representatives were unable to get the response we did in the Republic. I was a councillor at the time and while I was unable to get everything I wanted, the local authority in my area dealt with the most urgent problems first and councillors of all parties and none made sure that happened. This needs to be borne in mind.

The Minister of State stated the current system it too expensive. Where is the evidence for that? With regard to the leaks issue, a number of local authorities had leak detection units and my understanding is that a small investment in three or four staff generated huge dividends in the context of saving water. They have been let go because of the recruitment embargo. Only 52% of charges are collected and that needs to be examined. One does not solve problems by creating another set of problems. One should deal with the issue of the 48% of charges that are not collected.

Given the loss of democratic control and local accountability and responsibility, the Minister of State is heading down a dangerous road with this new body and he will complete the job of killing off local authorities. Both the Minister and the Minister of State have stated in reply to me during Question Time in the House that they have no intention of privatising water services and that is not the end game. However, in some cases private companies control the plant that produces the water through the PPP bundles and another private company controls the stop-valve at the other end where the sewerage goes into the sewerage plant because it controls the sewerage plant. It does not take much imagination to see that all one need do is privatise the pipes in the middle and the metering system. I have assurances in that regard.

My concern is that Ministers of State and Deputies come and go. We might not be here in four or five years' time, but another conservative Government, using some old blather and nonsense from the EU about the need for competition, will come in and decide, as in the case of ESB, etc., to break up the company, sell off parts of it and privatise it. That is what will happen here. That is the concern, that the Minister is placing this in a position where down the line it can be easily privatised. The local authority utility will not be privatised because there is resistance at local level and it is too fragmented. At local level, it is no harm that it is fragmented because there is local responsibility, local accountability and local democracy.

Does the Minister of State not see that what I outlined can happen down along the line, that somebody else sitting in his seat, somebody else in Deputy Hogan's seat and somebody else in my seat may decide to do that? It is easy to complete the task of filling in the bit in the middle.

I thank Deputy Stanley for his questions. It is the right time for them. This consultation is taking place so that we can take on board all of the points the members make and, hopefully, reply to them. One of my colleagues on the technical side may wish to answer also.

First, I assure Deputy Stanley that the legislation is not in place yet for this authority and many of the issues he raised will be enshrined in that legislation. In response to one of the key points he raised, the report confirms that it will be a public utility. It will not be a private utility. That is the first point, it will be a publicly-owned entity.

Second, NewERA and the Department are presently looking at existing State agencies which are interested in becoming de facto Irish water. In other words, there are staff in publicly-owned utilities who are interested in bidding to become Irish water. That is a process which is ongoing. The fundamental issue is that there are significant players interested and involved in it.

The other point Deputy Stanley makes is about local authorities. The problem is that there are 34 local authorities providing water supply. Within that, there are over 900 separate supplies. Some counties such as Kerry would have many more supplies than others because the supplies have a small rural base whereas in areas such as Dublin there is only the main supply. The key aspect is that the bigger the supply, the more likely it will be of the highest possible quality. For instance, the EPA, which looks at 250,000 samples of water per annum across the country, finds that in supplies which come from populations greater than 5,000, the water is of the highest quality and as pristine as anywhere else in Europe.

The problem is that some of the smaller supplies have problems. Last year, there were approximately 60 boil notices which meant that there were water supplies with which there were issues. Individual local authorities do not necessarily have the resources to do the full job that is needed, or the cost base to pay for it.

The idea of Irish water is that it would be based on what are called regional river basins, of which there are seven nationally: the Shannon basin, the south west, the eastern coast, etc. It will operate outside county boundaries. County boundaries are no longer adequate to deal with the scale of the issues that need to be addressed.

One of the issues that has come up in the media recently is the question of the water supply in Dublin from 2018. If we do not get significant improvement in that supply, then the water supply of this area will be compromised, we must take water from outside of Dublin and one must ask from where it will come and how it will come from there. All of those are significant issues of scale which must be dealt with.

The point Deputy Stanley makes about accountability is important. I agree the system in Northern Ireland collapsed because it was not accountable, it was not able to deal with the crisis and it did not have the proper manpower in place. Conversely, here in the South, there was an outstanding response from local authorities where there were two freezes and thaws over a short period of time. The Deputy is correct in stating that at the heart of Irish water will be the local authority worker who is presently doing that job and the services will be contracted to Irish water initially from the local authority. I have visited many of these places. I have gone to the mountains of Kerry and the plains of Tipperary. I have not yet been in Deputy Coonan's place, but I have been in south Tipperary.

The Minister of State was born there.

I was born there but I did not visit the water supply since.

He should never forget his roots.

I agree.

I have visited local authorities around the country and I agree with Deputy Stanley on the professionalism of the engineering and technical staff and the ordinary workers who are committed to looking after the water supply in the mountains. We respect and acknowledge the work that has been done. That is why this will take some time. That is why, with Irish Water, everything will be brought into unity over a five to six-year period.

Deputy Stanley asked about costs. With Scottish Water, there were three regional water authorities in Scotland and over a four-year period they saved 40% of their costs and became much more efficient because they had a greater capacity to deliver in terms of scale.

I presume one of the questions that must be addressed in the legislation is how to make Irish water accountable. We would be happy to hear views from all sides of the House. It must be accountable to the Oireachtas and to the committees. There should be a way. It should be much more accountable in the Dáil as well. We must find a mechanism so that it is not like the HSE, it is accountable, but it can get on with its job at the same time.

There is the issue that when there are meters, there will be a significant reduction in consumption. The Minister of State will be aware that the environmental protection agencies in England, Scotland and Wales found that they were using 158 litres per day per person whereas the Dublin water supply report in 2008 stated that we were only using 148. Despite the existence of metering in the UK, there is no evidence to show that metering reduced the volume of water used.

On the points the Minister of State raised on the issue of water sources, the number of local sources will remain the same. There will still be Kilminchy in Portlaoise, Strabo's Well, etc. Every member can name their own. Every one of those water sources will exist because they all have been invested in and that is what Irish water will depend on. The Minister of State will not do away with them. In a couple of years' time he will not come in here and tell me that there are only half the amount of water sources.

On river basin management, there are river basin management committees in place already and they are working quite well where there are councillors from various local authorities and officials who meet to do the business of protecting those river basins. The Minister of State spoke of the local authority worker and stated that there will be accountability to the national body and that there will be legislation. He is a man with common sense. He is a practical individual.

I ask him to consider this. He mentioned the NRA and the HSE. I do not want to put the boot in to them because I do not need to. They are able to discredit themselves. I do not need to do it. The point I would make is that one can make someone accountable to something but when one takes it away from that micro level to the macro, State, 26 county level, it falls down in the middle.

We must move on.

The only way one can manage this is at county level and the only way one can keep that kind of regulation and control over it is at local level.

May I answer that briefly?

If there is a problem locally, the ESB van turns up at one's door. We will have a local staff in Irish water.

There is a regional ESB office.

The make-up of Irish water will be regional and local. Of course, there must be significant local staff because that is where we need them.

There is the local authority.

There will be issues that will be discussed clearly with local authorities and with unions. It is important that their views are listened to and taken on board but at the end of the day people will be based locally to respond to local issues. There will also be people at regional level to deal with financial issues relating to infrastructural improvements. While it is a fact that there are a large number of individual water supply plants, regions will be capable of achieving new synergies which counties cannot afford. I ask Mr. Galvin to speak further about the technical aspects of this issue.

Mr. Gerry Galvin

As the Minister of State noted, there are 952 different water supply plants but 90% of the water supplied in the country comes through 225 plants. The remaining 700 plants supply 10% of the water. These are on the EPA's remedial action list for upgrading in order to reduce the risk of contamination and ensure water quality for consumers. Irish Water will have the capacity, which local authorities do not currently possess, to explore how best to rationalise those supplies and investigate the business case for connecting them up and building regional schemes in order to meet quality, service and supply requirements.

The Minister of State commenced by saying there are weaknesses in the system. The weakness is as much top-down as it is bottom-up because of under investment and the absence of a strategic approach to delivering water and waste facilities. Major questions arise in regard to value for money in public-private partnerships for water infrastructure.

The Minister of State indicated that it is the intention to ensure Irish water will be wholly publicly owned but then went on to speak about involving private sector funding in capital projects. This does not suggest 100% public ownership. I ask him to specify what exactly he means by public ownership.

This committee has held a number of meetings with expert witnesses to tease out the issues arising. Essentially, the public consultation is now taking place but, while I accept that the legislation is not yet forthcoming, it appears that the decisions have already been made. There is a narrowness in the consultation process given that some of the outcomes have been predetermined.

How does the Minister of State envisage determining the amount to be given as a free allowance? If Irish Water is to take responsibility for network management and upgrading, it will not be starting off with a beautiful system that functions perfectly. Pipes will freeze in very cold weather, for example, and policies will have to be devised to respond to criticism. If people are asked to pay they will make certain demands about water pressure and quality.

The Minister of State said that the cost base of €1.2 billion is excessive. I take that as a given but what is the potential for savings by taking a more strategic approach nationally? Will Irish Water deal exclusively with water supply or will it also manage waste water? I do not see how it can manage one without also being responsible for the other.

The issue of equity of delivery and investment of water supplies will inevitably arise. What will be the relationship between land use, in terms of the national spatial strategy and regional authorities, and Irish Water? We cannot simply approach the issue on the basis that we will never build another house or factory. We must look to the future.

The application form for the household charge is like a census form. It is clear that the individuals who are registering are being made to do the administrative work. Irrespective of our differences, if names and addresses are not provided from the household charge form where will Irish Water get the information it needs on the country's 1.6 million households? Who will be responsible for administration and how will that cost be factored in?

The committee heard from experts on public-private partnerships, who gave compelling evidence from other countries that they do not offer good economic returns. The experts argued that PPPs are the Department's favoured approach. If we are not getting a fair economic return on investment, will that continue to be the case and will the Department be dictating to Irish Water? I ask the Minister of State to address the issue of PPPs.

In regard to local government staff, one tends to think about the people at operational level when one speaks about water supplies but a significant number of people are employed in the areas of systems design and capital works. Can the Minister of State indicate how many people are employed in total? People will still be required in the large treatment plants but how will those who work in related areas be impacted?

Like other public representatives, my interactions with the EPA have been good on some occasions but appalling on others. Sometimes it takes an academic approach when a practical response is needed to issues such as the safety of water supplies. I am concerned that we are giving it a major new responsibility without a proper evaluation of its capacity. Will it be evaluated in advance of any decision on Irish Water?

I agree with Deputy Stanley on the issue of accountability. That has to be worked into the system. Dealing with organisations like the National Roads Authority and the HSE has been a nightmare because information is considered almost a privilege. That has to be factored in as a value in any changes that might be made.

I will try to answer all points, although Ms Graham, who is beside me, will answer some of the technical questions. If anything is left out, members may remind us later. There is a note here that I will read in a minute, but I want to say a few things first.

The Irish Water company will have a strong local and regional base, so I do not see an issue with accountability or capacity to respond to issues. The skills that people have locally are useful, as members have rightly pointed out. One meets engineers or technical people who are working on district metering, trying to find leaks and so on. They are highly skilled people who might like to continue a career in that work, but within the local authority the opportunities are not necessarily there to improve or move to a different level of involvement. There are great opportunities for people who currently work in water services to transfer to the new Irish Water company and have a full, high-level career at local, regional and national level. That is a career path that will open up to many of the people members are talking about.

An important point was made about planning issues. Where are the houses going to go if the water company does not supply the infrastructure? A key part of the legislation will be that the Irish Water company must have regard to local area plans and county and regional development plans so that we will have the joined-up thinking that is absolutely essential. The local council will decide where it wants to go and what it would like to see develop, and the water company will have to buy into that and make due account of it. It will not be top-down dictation; the information from local councils and regional authorities about what they want will come up through the system.

The introduction of water charges does raise the issue of affordability. This is not just an issue for those on low incomes. Households with large families or people with medical conditions also require considerable use of water and may have affordability issues. At present, social supports for other utilities and services such as electricity, telephone and fuel allowance are funded through the household benefit scheme, which is administered by the Department of Social Protection. The Government is establishing a regulator for the water sector, which will be responsible for establishing measures to address affordability issues, including in cases in which medical conditions might require greater use of water. This approach to addressing affordability will also be discussed in full with the Department of Social Protection. Different things happen in the UK and Scotland, but the key point is that the regulator will take all of these issues into account, so the water company will not just be deciding whatever it likes. The regulator will engage fully with the implementation of a policy that is fair and equitable.

Ms Maria Graham

I have a couple of points on the issues of operational costs and savings, which were mentioned by members. The report conducted by PricewaterhouseCoopers took data from local authorities and carried out some comparisons on the operational cost per connection, comparing the results with the UK and Scotland. Scottish Water is a public utility dealing with broadly the same demographic and geographic conditions as Ireland. In all instances, Ireland was at the higher end of the scale. The expectation is that the economies of scale of a public utility would drive down those costs towards industry norms.

PwC also conducted some high-level assessments of financing and funding. The assumptions it used included a saving of 2% per annum in operational costs. It examined issues such as capacity to work across county boundaries and considered the use of best-in-class industry-standard IT systems to improve the work of the water utility. On the capital side, in the early years, efficiency gains of 1% per annum are expected. The Deputy mentioned issues such as the need for dedicated staff with specific procurement skills, concentrating those together and negotiating rates, and looking at things in a river basin or broader context.

The Deputy also asked about the current practice with regard to design-build-operate contracts and mentioned the discussions that have taken place in this committee. From the Department's perspective, our approach to design-build-operate contracts is from a value-for-money perspective. We have spent over €3 billion on wastewater services in particular over the last decade. Starting, in many instances, from a position of little or no service, we must come into compliance with the urban wastewater directive. In many instances we were talking about green field sites with no staff and no treatment plant in place. Design-build-operate contracts, particularly in the larger plants, have helped us to reach a compliance level of nearly 90%.

We do an appraisal for each project on a case-by-case basis in which we compare the costs of the design-build-operate route with a public sector benchmark; the data we have shows savings of 10% to 15% on operational costs and 15% to 20% on capital costs. It is something we consider on a case-by-case basis. We also have a number of large plant projects - Leixlip and Osberstown, for example - that are being progressed as traditional contracts. This is something that we continue, and we expect local authorities to continue, to examine on a project-by-project basis, and we expect the Irish Water company to develop its procurement strategy as time goes on, taking into account the best value for money in terms of capital investment and operational savings.

I will make a short point about the free allowance, which is a core issue. That is clearly a matter for the regulator based on discussions with everybody. In other words, the amount of the free allowance will be determined through discussion; it has not been decided, but we will consider the evidence of use and listen to what people say. Obviously, the regulator will ultimately decide the amount, but there will be a free allowance, and after that there will be a charge. The purpose is to encourage conservation. The evidence has shown a minimum saving of water of around 10% under such circumstances. In other words, by metering in a fair way, we will reduce consumption.

I would like to follow up on points that I think have not been properly answered.

The Minister of State said it would be down to the regulator to decide the free allowance, which means it will not be a predetermined rule from the Department in the form of a set of instructions that it gives to the regulator. Can the regulator decide not to have a free allowance?

There is a commitment in the programme for Government to the principle of a free allowance, after which customers will be charged based on usage. Nobody will be charged for water until the beginning of 2014, so we have plenty of time to debate and fully discuss it. Clearly, it is a fundamental issue, and there will be plenty of debate about it. At this moment I can tell the Deputy there will definitely be a free allowance, but I cannot tell her what it will be.

The free allowance could be the equivalent of a glass of water.

It could be more than that as well.

I take it that it will be a realistic amount.

It will have to be realistic, of course.

There were three questions to which I did not get an answer. How will the company get access to a database to deal with non-compliance in filling in the forms? I presume the Data Protection Act will not be an issue in that regard.

The Minister of State spoke about value for money. If the company is to be wholly owned, what part of it will be wholly owned, if it is a public private partnership?

It is a design-build-operate contract, but I presume it is owned by the-----

Ms Maria Graham

To clarify, in a design-build-operate contract, the asset is owned by the local authority and the contract is normally for 20 years, after which the service reverts to the local authority. When I spoke about the Irish Water company examining its own procurement strategy and considering whether DBO should be a part of it, I was referring to the company as a contracting authority which would contract in the same way as a local authority. The water company would own the assets - the treatment plants, the pipes, the networks. The references to private finance refer to the company's borrowing in its own right, just as other utilities borrow to fund their operations and capital investments.

Mr. Mark Griffin

It quickly becomes clear from the report and consultation document that the funding model we have in place does not work. Deputy Murphy cited some of the figures. The overall cost of providing the water service is €1.2 billion per annum, of which approximately €700 million is incurred in operational costs and a further €500 million in capital costs. Direct income from non-domestic charges amounts to €200 million per annum. Effectively, therefore, the State is left with a bill of €1 billion. As part of the process in which we were involved, we had to examine how to develop a sustainable funding model, taking into account the position of the public finances. As the Minister of State noted, capital investment declined from €434 million last year to €371 million this year and will fall below €300 million by 2014. We have, therefore, a need that is increasing. The report suggests we should aim to achieve approximately €600 million in capital investment per annum on a steady basis. Given that the capacity of the State on its own to fund the water investment programme is severely constrained, we must consider a model that will include a number of components. Ms Graham referred to the capacity of the proposed new utility company to raise debt in the market. Our understanding is that investment companies are experienced in providing funding for water services utilities and investment packages are available.

We must address the difficulty with the collection rate in the non-domestic sector, which stands at 53% and delivers approximately €200 million per annum. We must consider options for increasing this rate and determine whether local authorities are achieving a realistic price in terms of what they charge for the provision of services to the non-domestic sector.

An issue also arises in respect of Government funding for water services. What assumptions can we make for the Government's capacity to continue to fund these services? We also have the issue of water charges and what contribution they can make to funding the service. The issue is one of developing a sustainable funding model.

I cannot argue with Deputy Murphy's analysis that aspects of the problem can be attributed as much to the top as the bottom. She is correct, for example, that there has been under-investment in the past. While approximately €5 billion has been spent on water services in the past decade, a significant need remains to be addressed. In fairness to the Department, however, we have taken a strategic approach to planning investment in water services. We have the rolling water services investment programme, which was updated in 2009, and the 2010-12 programme is in place. We have also taken into account the needs identified in the first set of river basin management plans and the needs assessment that individual local authorities identified as part of the process of review. We have considered environmental compliance needs more generally and the needs of the business community. We are satisfied, and independent commentary at the time substantiates our view, that this is a good investment plan.

Irish Water, once established, will need to put in place its own strategic investment plan. The regulator will have to approve this plan to ensure it addresses the need that has been identified, does not propose to invest too much - it must not be a gold plated investment plan - and adopts an approach that will drive down costs and reduce prices for consumers.

May I press my question on what will be the source of the proposed new company's database for the household water charge?

It will be the job of the Irish water company to obtain a database. It will have to deal with its customers and produce a database in that way.

I welcome the Minister of State and his officials. I wish him well as he undertakes fundamental reforms of the provision of water because he will require a great deal of luck and support. It is important that the forthcoming changes are successful. While people are not afraid of change, they often find that a lack of information is a significant problem. It would be much easier to accept or support proposals if proper information were made available to members of the public.

Of the seven river basins, the River Shannon is shown in the presentation as supplying water to Dublin. How does Bord na Móna's proposal for extracting water from Lough Derg fit in with the formation of Irish Water? Is it a fait accompli ? If Irish Water was to decide there is a better and more economical approach to addressing this issue, will it be afforded an opportunity to pursue other options or will its hands be tied before it commences work? The proposal appears to be regionally unbalanced in that the River Shannon basin covers practically half the country while the rest of the country is covered by six other river basins. I ask the Minister of State to elaborate on the issue.

While I do not propose to dwell on the proposal to extract water from Lough Derg, one of the major issues with the proposal is the absence of an independent study of the effects of extracting water from the lough. Bord na Móna and Dublin City Council, the proposers of the scheme, have refused to fund such a study. The local community considers such a study essential. Not only is it proposed to extract water but an alternative tourism amenity is envisaged which will compete with the tourism services provided on Lough Derg. While one could argue that all is fair in love and war, competition should be fair. I am concerned about the impact of the proposal and the establishment of an Irish water company.

Will the Minister of State elaborate on the role of the proposed Irish water company? For example, the National Roads Authority, as a result of the downturn in its business, has expressed an interest in delivering the service to be provided by the new company? Will the NRA have a role in providing the expertise it has developed in managing, contracting and delivering major infrastructural services? Other companies which have expressed an interest in running the new company include Bord Gáis. Will they be given an opportunity to become involved or will the Irish water company be operated exclusively by Bord na Móna? Members of the public have raised these questions with me and seek definitive answers.

The Minister of State indicated the roll-out of metering schemes would commence later this year. How long will it take to roll out metering nationwide? What is the estimated cost of the provision of meters? Will householders incur any costs arising from the metering scheme, other than for water? The Minister of State noted that the installation of water meters is labour intensive and involves "minor excavation and reinstatement". Earlier this week, I attended a launch of modern, cutting edge technology by a company which argues that meters are unnecessary and more modern options are available. Has the Department investigated this possibility or is it rushing ahead with the metering proposal? Has due consideration been given to all aspects of the plan?

The Minister of State referred to the outstanding quality of Irish water. Is he delusional? He and his officials overestimate the quality of water here, particularly drinking water. If it is so good, why are so many families using bottled water products such as those supplied by companies such as Tipperary Water and Ballygowan? The reason the market for bottled water products is so large is that much of the water provided here is not palatable. Anyone who uses it to make tea should add milk because it leaves a scum on one's crockery. Members of the public are extremely concerned about the quantities of chemicals used in the treatment of water to bring it to the wonderful standard the Minister of State describes. The use of fluoride in water treatment, which is prohibited in many countries, is one of the main public concerns.

I will answer some of the Deputy's questions. Mr. Gerry Galvin might like to come in again on the technical end. I refer the Deputy to the annual report of the EPA on drinking water quality in Ireland for 2010. It was published just before Christmas. It is not delusional and I ask the Deputy to read it very carefully. The executive summary states that the quality of water has significantly improved. I mentioned earlier the water supply to populations greater than 5,000. The vast majority of the water in Ireland is of international quality. That is a fact and the evidence of that is in the EPA report. As I said earlier, it tests 250,000 separate samples of water annually. The EPA pointed to the fact there may be issues in regard to the presence of E. coli and so on in 11% of water in group water schemes.

As we know, one of the problems is how water is polluted. I mention in this regard the protection of water and the steps which need to be taken to do that. That is a very significant issue but I repeat that we are improving our water quality, and rightly so, because we have invested so much in it.

One would pay approximately €2.30 for 1 cm³ of Tipperary spring water but the Deputy would get 1,000 litres of tap water for €2.30. One would be lucky to get a litre of Tipperary spring water for €2.30 in any pub or shop. In terms of volume, cost and benefit to the consumer, the quality of Irish water is top class.

However, there are issues. The same report states that the number of boil water notices issued has reduced over the years. I do not have the figures in front of me but I think there were 60 boil water notices last year. In many cases, they were precautionary boil water notices. In other words, it was not that anything had happened but it was felt that one should boil water before drinking it. There is a graph in the report which shows a reduction over the years.

We are dealing with the issue but there are problems and Irish Water is there to deal with them. There is a remedial action list, about which I will ask Mr. Gerry Galvin to talk, where supplies are on the RAL. They need significant improvement and investment. We have identified where we need to improve and that is where this money will be used. These issues are being addressed and this is what Irish Water is about. It is about quality of water, economies of scale and meeting the needs of the future.

The Deputy raised a point about the Shannon. I have spoken to people about this issue and I had a discussion with Inland Fisheries Ireland because we are very concerned about water levels dropping in a lake and its affect on tourism, the fish one might or might not catch, etc. These are very important issues and Mr. Gerry Galvin will speak about this.

The question of abstraction from the Shannon and the time it should take place will have to be scientifically nailed down. There can be no doubt about it. It must not affect tourism, the quality of life in the area and the flora and the fauna. It must be empathetic to the environment.

Mr. Gerry Galvin

Studies are ongoing with a view to going through the statutory planning process. Dublin City Council, on behalf of the Dublin authorities, is the proposer for this project. It is undertaking studies. Bord na Móna is involved to the extent that it owns the lands on which the storage will be provided. Dublin City Council has been in consultation with Bord na Móna for that reason.

It is a Dublin City Council proposal. Its consultants are currently preparing all the environmental studies and the studies on the impact on the Shannon. Part of its proposal is that by providing this storage facility at Garryhinch in the midlands, water will not have to be abstracted from the Shannon during periods of low flow. It is providing that abstraction from the Shannon can be shut off for a period of up to five months to cover an extremely dry year when flow on the Shannon would be low. That will mitigate any impact on the tourism benefits of the Shannon over the summer months. As we all know, during the winter months, there is more than ample water in the Shannon and it is during the winter months that the abstraction will take place to fill the midlands storage facility. That will also alleviate, to some extent, some of the flooding that takes places along the Shannon catchment.

I referred to an independent study. Bord na Móna and Dublin City Council carrying out a study is not independent.

Mr. Gerry Galvin

It will be subject to independent scrutiny by An Bord Pleanála as part of the environmental impact assessment and the water abstraction order.

What provision has the Minister of State made to provide for an independent study to do be done?

This issue is between Dublin City Council and other people. It is not in the domain of the Department.

I beg to differ with the Minister of State. It is very much with the Department. The Department and the Minister of State represent the people. To say it is between Dublin City Council and Bord na Móna and that it excludes the people is not acceptable.

The Department does not run the policies in North Tipperary County Council, in Nenagh, Roscrea or whatever. The Department may fund some of them but the council decides. In this case, we do not have statutory responsibility for Dublin City Council's plan.

We are deciding on an issue in north Tipperary.

We would be very anxious to put the Deputy's mind at rest because these are very serious and important issues. I acknowledge that.

The Department wants them to go away.

We do not want them to go away. We want it to be right. Nobody is pulling the wool over anybody's eyes in this regard. This must be up-front, scientifically proven and absolutely spot on because if it is not, it will not work. It must be right and I have every confidence in the process.

Mr. Gerry Galvin

I was asked a question about the water metering programme. The proposal is that procurement of that water metering programme will commence during 2012 with installation of meter boundary boxes commencing at the end of 2012 and taking a three-year period. There will be no cost to the householder and it will be funded through Irish water.

As the Minister of State outlined in his opening statement, there will be national procurement contract for the supply of the equipment - the boundary boxes and the meters - and there will be somewhere between 150 and 200 local installation contracts to facilitate small and medium-sized contractors installing the meters on a local basis.

That is welcome but has modern technology been investigated? What is Mr. Galvin's response to the proposition that these cumbersome meters are not necessary?

Mr. Gerry Galvin

We have researched this not only in terms of the technology available but in terms of best practice internationally in providing metering. One of the fundamental benefits of putting in a metering programme is that under the Water Services Act 2007, the householder is responsible for any leakage in the curtilage of his or her property. By metering at the boundary box - at the perimeter of the property - it will pick up whether there is leakage taking place on the property for which the householder is responsible and will repair when he or she becomes aware of it.

Other systems of metering which involve inhouse metering are more difficult to install because they involve having to enter a private property. They are also more difficult to read for the same reason and they do not pick up any leakage between the stopcock and the location of the meter in the property. We have looked at this metering but the proposal is to put in a boundary box with a meter with automatic meter reading, either on a walk by or, in rural settings, on a drive by basis, to facilitate meter reading. It will be installed at no cost to the householder and with minimum disruption other than the water supply being cut off for probably two hours while the meter box is being installed.

What is the cost of installing the metering box? Has the cost to the State been estimated?

Mr. Gerry Galvin

We have not estimated the cost to the State but as the Minister, Deputy Hogan, outlined, we will not know the real cost until we go through the tender process. For reasons of commercial sensitivity, and so as not to bias the whole tendering process, that information is being kept confidential to the Department at the moment until we see what comes out of the tendering process. It will be publicly tendered. The award of those contracts and the result of those competitions will be publicly announced at the conclusion of that procurement process.

Before I bring in Deputy Kevin Humphreys, I wish to remind members that Dr. Edgar Morgenroth from the ESRI is due to appear before us this afternoon also, so I am trying to finish this session by 5 p.m. I will bring in Deputy Kevin Humphreys as the last group spokesperson and I will then group the other commentaries together collectively.

I thank the Chairman and congratulate the Minister of State on his appointment. I welcome the fact that his opening statement recognises that water is a vital requirement for economic growth. As has been mentioned by the Minister of State and others, the ten eastern counties have a severe water problem. Those ten counties do not produce enough water from Monday to Friday, nor do they build up a sufficient reserve at the weekends. The crisis point may come before 2018, so there is a sense of urgency. Nobody particularly minds where the water comes from but we must ensure that the ten eastern counties, where nearly 60% of all taxation is raised, have a water supply for further economic growth and getting people back to work. I ask the Minister of State to deal with this policy decision as a matter of urgency.

We are talking about approximately 25,000 km of water pipes. The Minister of State confirmed to Deputy Catherine Murphy that waste would be considered. Are we also talking about sewerage pipelines being transferred?

The whole structure.

So we are talking about 50,000 km of pipe works. As regards Irish Water, currently within the local authority structure, depending on the figures, there are about 4,300 wholetime equivalents working within the water and sewerage sectors. I have seen a figure mentioned of about 3,400 eventually being employed by Irish Water. I take it that would be a direct transfer undertaking and that other members would be subsumed back into their local authority.

The river basin structure seems to be the norm for managing water services. Will the Minister be giving a directive to the regulator or will the regulator set the pricing structure? Will the pricing structure be set on a national basis rather than on a river basin one? That happens in some European states where the pricing structure is based on a river basin. I would like the Minister of State to clarify whether he intends to set pricing at a national level, rather than examining a water basin format.

Earlier on, the Minister of State said that Irish Water may be part of another utility. As Deputy Stanley said, one could have Bord na Móna or Bord Gáis involved. The PwC report explicitly recommends a stand-alone utility. I would ask the Minister of State to examine the terms of reference because the PwC report nearly instructs them to come back with that solution. I am glad the Minister of State has indicated that he is open to examining other mechanisms. There are several cost-saving areas because of the building and management structures. Given some of the research, it would suit Ireland better if we used one of our current semi-State companies to manage Irish Water. I would welcome a further indication in that regard. Obviously, establishing the new entity as a semi-State or public utility will have benefits as we will be able to borrow off the book for further investment. I take it that it is the intention to ensure greater investment within that sector.

The Minister of State referred to the current cost of €1.2 billion. He also said that people on low incomes or those with medical complaints would be considered for waivers. How does he intend to instruct the regulator in this respect? Will the regulator lay down the contribution for the State to Irish Water or the public utility, or is it intended to spread that cost across the other customers? If that is the intention, it will squeeze middle-income families who carry the burden. A waiver system for those on low incomes and those with medical conditions should be paid as a subvention from the State. The cost of that to the taxpayer should be laid down by the regulator. If a small base has to carry that amount, there will be excessive costs to people who will be billed.

In the UK, Southern Water is currently rolling out 500,000 water meters at a cost of approximately €100 million, which is about £80 million sterling. They are looking at the drive-by system of taking about 20,000 bills per day, rather than a walk-by system. If we take a rough figure of €100 million, is it intended to gain that sum back through the billing system or is the Minister of State looking at that as a once-off cost to be taken up by the Exchequer?

I will do my best to answer those very good questions. I want to deal with one important issue, namely, the free allowance. The Government sets the policy framework. The regulator, agencies and others interested will be properly consulted on how the free allowance would work. Poverty and related questions are important issues for us. As part of this consultation process, we will be meeting the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and other social partners to take their views on board. We will listen to them but, ultimately, the Government decides.

As regards whether or not Irish Water is a separate entity, they were asked in section 7 to assess the potential role for an existing State agency. The Government commissioned the report and will decide what parts it will take - all, some or none of it - as with any other report. It is a significant body of information to help us make our decisions but we will make the decisions, not the consultants.

PwC produced the report based on the structure laid down by the programme for Government. It states within the programme that it favours setting up Irish Water as a statutory facility, so naturally PwC came back with that answer. Looking at the level of research PwC has done, I do not think it adequately assessed the utilisation of our current semi-State companies. I think it just looked at a few examples and then moved on. That is just my opinion and I do not mean to be argumentative.

As I read it, it is on page 98 of the report. The Deputy has a redacted report and I do not, so I do not want to let out all the State secrets. I do not want to give the Deputy the wrong information from the wrong page. We will check it again.

The report I have does not have page numbers.

The Deputy has the redacted report so it is page X. It is quite clear. On page 98 it states that there are a number of existing State agencies which could bring these synergies or proposals in. They are Bord Gáis, the ESB, Bord na Móna, the Railway Procurement Agency, the NRA, Coillte, An Post, the CIE companies, the Dublin Airport Authority, the National Development Finance Agency and the National Treasury Management Agency. There is no issue here. If anybody in a State company has not been in touch with my Department, we want to hear from him or her. As I understand it, however, the key players have already indicated. Perhaps I do not have this exactly right, but one of the options is that company A, Bord na Móna or the ESB, could become Irish Water, so it would have to be a separate entity within an existing State company. It could be a separate entity within an existing structure or it could be a new entity unrelated to any mother ship. It will be publicly owned and not privatised. All of its assets will be in its ownership.

Mr. Mark Griffin

I refer to the State agencies, new or existing. We pressed the consultants very hard on this issue, taking account of other parts of the programme for Government that refer to rationalising, merging or abolishing existing State agencies. If we recommended the establishment of a new State agency, one of the concerns is that it would be challenged when the Government is trying to downsize the sector. We pushed the consultants very hard on this issue. Members will see what they came back with in the final phase 1 report. The view of the Government is that this is a work in progress and one must look more closely at it. According to the consultation document, no final decision has been taken on whether this will be a new or existing State agency.

From the wider perspective, the most important thing to do in establishing a new State agency is to reuse and recycle resources within the State sector. Deputies and Senators referred to the role of the NRA, which has skills in project management and regional design office structure and has a good track record of working with local authorities. We must consider how we tap into those resources. Bord Gáis has good experience of billing systems, dealing with customers and network and distribution systems. Other skills exist in other State agencies such as Bord na Móna and ESB. It is a work in progress and the Government has not settled on a final approach in respect of Irish Water and whether it will be a new or an existing State agency.

Regarding the policy context examined by PwC, I accept the answer. It is laid down in the section.

Mr. Mark Griffin

I chaired the steering group for the study and I can assure the Deputy that there was no constraint on PwC in examining this issue. We were conscious of complying with the requirements of the memorandum of understanding and the terms of reference of the study so that it is an independent assessment. PwC expressed a view and the Government pushed back on it and we are looking again at the issue of a new or existing State agency.

Mr. Gerry Galvin

Regarding the funding of the metering, the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government announced that it will be funded by a loan from the National Pensions Reserve Fund on commercial terms. The details of the loan have yet to be worked out with the National Pensions Reserve Fund but it will not be paid back over a short period. Rather, it will be a period of many years so a small element of the charge to consumers will be for repaying the loan to the National Pensions Reserve Fund.

I refer to what is being done in Dublin, the resources being put in and the assurances sought in respect of counties in this region. The action currently being undertaken includes a major leak reduction programme, which has contributed significantly to ensuring adequate supply. Unaccounted for water levels reduced from 42% in 1996 to 28% in 2002 but it has fluctuated to 30% at various points since then. A large scale mains rehabilitation programme is under way, new groundwater sources have come on stream in Kildare, which cost €16.8 million, and work is in progress on a further expansion at the Ballymore Eustace treatment plant and associated works. The latter is being done by Dublin City Council. A new treatment plant for water abstraction from the River Barrow will commence in 2011 and is being arranged by Kildare County Council. Other associated networks are also planned for commencement under the current water services investment programme. There will be an expansion of the Leixlip works, which is at the procurement stage and is being handled by Fingal County Council. There is a lot of action at the moment.

Will the 3,400 staff come from local authorities?

It will ultimately be a matter for Irish Water to determine the staffing and skills required but it is likely that the numbers will be lower than those deployed today. Those reductions will be achieved over a period to 2018 in a managed way by designing a fit for purpose model, eliminating all existing duplication of activity, driving synergies and inefficiency through the delivery of a national service and leveraging technology. These are the key issues to be addressed in developing the implementation plan and will involve close co-operation with local authorities, staff and unions to ensure that the changes are managed well, taking into account the age profile of staff and the wider local government staffing needs. In the initial phase, Irish Water will work largely through service level agreements to which I referred earlier. This will ensure a smooth transition. The key point is that there has already been engagement with congress and ICTU and my Department has already written to the ICTU for further discussion as part of the consultation process. It is important for us that the discussion takes place and that there is full and open knowledge of these issues.

I take it that we are not going to follow the European model of pricing on a river basin structure and that pricing will be at a national level. Will that instruction be given to the regulator?

There are different views on this and different countries have different models. We will be debating the issue and discussing it with the Department and the consultants.

Mr. Mark Griffin

The comments of the Minister of State on developing a water pricing policy are very important because we need to set the framework for the regulator. There will be discussions about issues of affordability, the free allowance, competitiveness and the tariff structure. One of the issues that arises is whether it will be set at a national or regional level. Intuitively, given the size of the country and what happened with other utilities, it is suggested that we set the tariff at a national level. The Minister of State said that there are a range of views on that and we will listen to those views as part of the consultation process. We will take all of that into account in establishing the water pricing framework during the course of this year.

I suggest that the water pricing framework is the key to the acceptance of this nationally. It must be seen as a fair and transparent process. Perhaps the Minister of State can revert to us when his thinking has developed so that we can have a more in-depth discussion on it.

Deputy Humphreys is correct. This must be seen as fair and we must be in discussion with the committee so that any questions can be answered with full openness and transparency. That is what this is all about.

At this stage, the thinking of the Minister of State has not developed far enough to have a full discussion on this matter.

We are at the consultation phase and we are here to listen and to take on board comments.

I could talk all afternoon about the water pricing structure but others members wish to contribute.

I am reminded that Dr. Edgar Morgenroth will appear before the committee and I want to get him started before 5 p.m. I will take the other speakers together in the order they indicated to me - Senator Landy and Deputies Kennedy, Daly and Kitt.

I thank the Minister of State and his staff for attending. I could listen to the Minister of State all day. Judging by the pecking order used in deciding speakers at this committee, I almost had to listen to the Minister of State all day before I got the opportunity to speak.

With respect, the protocol for the meeting is that there is a lead speaker from every party and for Senator Landy's party, that person is Deputy Humphreys. Yes, Senator Landy had to wait his turn and he can now direct his questions to the Minister of State.

It might be informative to the members of the Chairman's party if he told us who the lead spokesperson on the day was.

That was decided a long time ago, Senator.

The Minister has a very good handle on this, despite the fact it has not been thought out. This is a consultation period. He got a good run at it last night and is well prepared for this afternoon's session.

I have a couple of concerns. A lot of thinking has not been finalised, as a Deputy said. Part of the Minister's opening remarks referred to job creation. I have calculated rough figures. Deputy Humphreys said approximately 4,000 people are working in water services across the country and I tend to agree with him. The overall figure for the running of the services when they are established will be 3,400. We need some clarity on that.

The jobs that will be created due to the implementation of metering are to be welcomed. However, during the last Dáil it was stated that it would cost in the order of €1 billion to install water meters. Mr. Galvin might clarify that. There is also the question of the legal situation with regard to access to water resources where there are boreholes and water is being accessed from various lakes around the country. Part of my town is supplied by lakes in the Comeragh Mountains. How much thought has gone into that? The river basin model was mentioned but it does not correlate with the regional authority model. There are two different geographical structures. If we are going to go down the road of a regional charge we need to be very clear on the difference between river basin areas and regional authorities.

It was stated that we are required to introduce this under the IMF deal, which we are. I question whether we are required to introduce a water services public utility body. I do not believe we are, that is a decision made by the Government. My big concern is the accountability of the new structure. The situation in Northern Ireland was mentioned as not being satisfactory. The outcome there was that the CEO resigned. No democratically elected person said he or she was wrong and took responsibility. The CEO walked out and the Minister ducked it.

The Minister came through the local authority system and knows it very well. I always like to see Ministers appointed who have served their time in local democracy because they have a better understanding of the system. Let us look at what has happened to the services local authorities provide. The main function of roads has gone to the NRA which is not accountable to local government. The health service, which was accountable to local government, is now run by the HSE which is not accountable to the Houses, never mind local government. Housing services now involve the private owners of houses who are renting houses under long-term leases to local authorities, which involves no accountability. We are now talking about taking accountability away from local government. If anything is done in regard to this consultation, it is that the Minister allow statutory accountability to remain in place for local authorities where the new water service operates. It should not be at regional authority level because it has no accountability either. The regional authority structure in this country is fairytale because it receives no funding. I served on it for two terms. No funding is dispersed to regional authorities in this country.

Deputy Humphreys researched the research done. It is interesting that it was done in Scotland and England and none was done by PricewaterhouseCoopers across mainland Europe. If it did such research it would have a different viewpoint. What is quoted in regard to cost savings, etc., refers to Scotland and England.

Does any of the research available to the Minister refer to an analysis of customer service satisfaction? Ultimately, that is who we are serving. We are serving the citizen as local authorities provide the service and if a utility company takes over it will be serving the customer. It is very important that is factored in and I would like to hear the comments of the Minister.

The delegation has a huge amount of detailed answers for something that is beginning a consultation process. The Minister made the point that county boundaries are inadequate to deal with the current situation, with which we would all agree. The reality in local areas is that is the case because regional co-operation and development in terms of water provision already exist in the State. Presumably, an enhancement of that co-operation on a regional basis would be a viable alternative to the establishment of an entirely separate company with all the dangers that have been pinpointed already, such as the lack of support staff in local authorities, the difficulties for the staff given the different financial arrangements that already exist across different local authorities and the possibility of the venture being privatised at a later date. I would like to Minister to comment on that.

The Minister made a lot of play on the role of the regulator and cited the example of the energy regulator, which would not fill people with confidence, given the chronic price rises in electricity and other energy resources, particularly when the household benefits package has been reduced by the Government. There is also a glaring contradiction between the discussion and the points being made about a realistic free allowance for householders while at the same time stating that this issue is being driven by the need to raise money. People will be receiving bills and the realistic allowance will mean that real families will still be faced with significant bills because the Minister estimated a funding deficit of €1 billion. Presumably that is what he wants to raise with the introduction of this measure and any realistic household allowance will have to be factored into the context of raising extra moneys.

The Minister referred to water charges and the installation of water meters being a certainty. Against a constrained economic backdrop that is unfortunate, particularly when the committee has had detailed and impressive contributions over the past number of months from people who have given evidence which, in part, was supported by the Minister's contribution today. Household meters would, in the short term and at best, reduce consumption by 10%. Dublin local authorities managed to reduce consumption by double that figure through investment, the replacement of leaking pipes and so on. Organisations like Engineers Ireland have said that a policy based on household meters is inadequate to deal with the situation and reducing leakage and a policy of water conservation would have a far greater impact. I am not clear on how that can be justified.

A delegate made the point that the meters would be installed at the connection to the public sewers and the existing water legislation states that the householder is responsible for anything beyond that. Engineers Ireland and other organisations who have come before us pinpointed correctly that householders are often not responsible. How could householders be responsible for much of the shoddy workmanship that has gone into a lot of the building that took place in recent times because of a lack of adequate regulation? Saying the householder should pay for this is a little shortsighted and will not work.

PricewaterhouseCoopers is the organisation that stood over the Department's DBO consultation process. Contrary to what the official has said, the actual model of the Department, according to multiple documents which I assume are correct because they are official, is such that it does not base its opinion on value for money but on the fact that DBO is its preferred method. No research has been done on that but the phrase in the documentation crops up many times. It has been adopted and implemented by PricewaterhouseCoopers at an enormous cost to the state.

The most recent scheme was the Enniscorthy main drainage scheme, in respect of which all the officials, director of services, staff at the coalface and financial authorities showed it was far better to proceed through the local authority, yet the DBO model was the one chosen. It concerns me that the organisation that advised the Department on that scheme is the one advising it on Irish Water. We will be referring some of its previous decisions to the Committee of Public Accounts. I hope the problem does not recur in regard to Irish Water.

Could the Minister of State comment on the metering programme? There are to be local contracts but the facts that the training for the programme is not being carried out by FÁS and that companies such as Chevron Training are charging people just short of €1,000 to undertake training programmes without giving them any guarantee of employment thereafter cannot be justified. How will the programme be monitored?

I will deal with Senator Landy first. He raised some very important points. I want to clarify two issues, the first of which concerns jobs. I refer the Senator to the actual report. The report states the number of front line staff is currently 3,630 and that the support staff, amounting to 16% of the other staff, bring the total to 4,278. This is the best estimate of the total number of people engaged with water services.

The installation of the meters will create 2,000 jobs over a three-year period. It will probably take about three years to implement the majority of the aspects of the programme, if not all of it. With the extra investment, being used to pay for development, many other jobs will be created as new projects come into play. There will be many more in the area of critical infrastructure improvement under the capital programme. We will have more money to invest.

The answer to the questions is that if one does not obtain the income from the charges, one will not be able to develop the resources. One would not be able to increase the water supply to all the constituencies in Dublin. It would require over €500 million but that will not materialise without a programme of investment and money coming in from the various sources.

Senator Landy asked about accountability. Like him, I have come through the local authority system. This system is incredibly important in the functioning of the new body. In the North, the system failed because it did not have a proper customer service body in place. It was not possible to answer the thousands of telephone calls to the call centres when conditions got bad. The authorities did not have sufficient resources or a plan to deal with them.

Critical as one may be of Irish Water, I assume there will be accountability, responsibility and access. These are the factors about which the Senator is talking. We must consider the best possible model, whereby the parliamentary system, and not just a committee system, can be used. I include the parliamentary questions system. I presume questions could be submitted to the water services section of the Department. Why should the new body not have capacity in this regard? The only way it can be trusted is if one can ask questions and if the Minister is accountable. That is very important.

Is the Minister of State ruling out statutory entitlement in respect of local authorities?

What is going to happen is that all the assets will be transferred to the new entity. The statutory decisions will be made in the new entity but, as I stated, Irish Water will have to have due and proper regard to the development plans of local authorities for cities and towns. The Senator has a view on regional bodies and I do not disagree with it. The body, however, will have to be accountable in regard to what local people decide. It will not be able to overrule and say Carrick-on-Suir, for example, will not be developed and that all the development will be focused instead on Waterford, Kilkenny or elsewhere. In other words, the body will have to listen to Oireachtas Members and have due regard to proper planning considerations.

Deputy Daly made a few points, and I will deal with some of them. Irish Water will not be privatised. There is confusion over the capacity of Irish Water to borrow money in the capital markets on foot of the assets it has. It will borrow money to do the job for Dublin at a cost of €500 million, for example, and will be paying back the private lenders the money and interest. That is what a state always does. Therefore, no issue arises in this regard.

At the moment, but that does not mean-----

Irish Water may say it needs to borrow €300 million, for example, for a capital programme. Companies will tender, the deal will be done and that will be it, but Irish Water will still have complete ownership.

The point on the regulator and the price of electricity is very good. Notwithstanding all the factors, the costs of fuels vary; they go up and down. Since we are not in control of the energy entity, we must import our oil and gas. We have all our water in the country, however, and therefore no issue arises over importation. We have a resource that we control but we cannot predict what will happen energy prices in international markets.

Mr. Gerry Galvin will answer some specific questions.

Mr. Gerry Galvin

It was suggested the cost of metering could be up to €1 billion. I can safely say that figure is seriously exaggerated. The Department has made its own estimates.

I did not say anything about the cost but that the Minister had said there was a shortfall in water funding of €1 billion and that the Department seeks to recover this, bearing in mind the difference between what water costs and the amount obtained from the non-domestic sector.

Mr. Gerry Galvin

I apologise to the Deputy; I understood she also mentioned the cost of metering.

It was I who mentioned it.

Mr. Gerry Galvin

It was Senator Landy who mentioned it. On his point on metering costing €1 billion, we are satisfied the figure is seriously exaggerated. We have carried out our own estimates based on market soundings, examining the experience of metering the non-domestic sector and having regard to the purchasing power associated with the procurement strategy I outlined, involving national procurement of supplies and local installation contracts. Based on these, the figure is grossly exaggerated.

With regard to Deputy Daly's point on training by Chevron Training, that company is a private entity. It has no endorsement from the Department, any local authority, the Water Services Training Group or any public body. It is providing the training at its own risk. The requirements for the installation of meters can be met by any qualified plumber or fitter. There are plenty of them on the unemployment list at present who worked for contractors for many years.

Is Mr. Galvin saying FÁS does not refer people to Chevron Training?

Mr. Gerry Galvin

Not for the meter training. Chevron Training, as far as I understand it, had FÁS approval for delivering training programmes, but not one for water metering.

Nobody has been referred from FÁS. Am I correct in saying FÁS itself is not providing any training?

That is incorrect.

Deputy Daly, please.

Mr. Galvin is saying FÁS is not involved in any training in this area and not referring anybody who presents to it for the courses.

Mr. Gerry Galvin

Not to my knowledge.

In fairness to the officials, they do not represent FÁS. We can find out the answer for the Deputy, however.

On a point of clarification, a cohort of people in County Laois has been brought on by FÁS to be trained to install the meters.

Mr. Gerry Galvin

There is a separate course provided by Water Services Training Group on how to install network meters, not domestic household meters.

I was told by the people doing the course, some of them my neighbours, that it is domestic.

Mr. Gerry Galvin

I will take that up with FÁS and come back to the Deputy.

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dowd, and his departmental officials, Mr. Griffin, Mr. Grimes, Ms Graham and Mr. Galvin, for assisting in our deliberations today. I will suspend the meeting briefly to allow the witnesses to leave and for Dr. Morgenroth to take his seat before the committee.

Sitting suspended at 5.01 p.m. and resumed at 5.05 p.m.

We are in public session to further consider the topic of water provision. I welcome Dr. Edgar Morgenroth, a fellow of the Regional Studies Association and associate research professor at the Economic and Social Research Institute, better known to us as the ESRI. I thank him for his attendance.

I draw to the witness's attention the fact that by virtue of section 17(2) (l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if he is directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in regard to a particular matter and he continues to do so he is entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of his evidence. That said, I invite Dr. Morgenroth to give his evidence to the committee.

Dr. Edgar Morgenroth

I thank the Chairman for inviting me to appear before the committee. In my evidence, I want to raise some issues that I consider important in reforming and improving water services in Ireland.

Before deciding on the optimal approach to providing water services in Ireland - drinking water supply and wastewater treatment - it is useful to consider the objectives that should be met. Drinking water should be of the highest quality in order to safeguard public health and also to ensure that key production sectors can operate in Ireland, for example, the food and drinks sector. Related to this is the need to protect the environment and to achieve a high ecological status which supports the tourism sector. Apart from impacting on public health and industry, maintaining high environmental standards, particularly in regard to wastewater treatment, reduces the cost of drinking water treatment.

Water should be produced efficiently; that is, it should be produced at the least cost given the standards that have to be achieved. Likewise, the cost of wastewater treatment should be at the least cost given the standards that need to be achieved. Such production efficiencies benefit both households and businesses through lower charges and, hence, improve competitiveness. Apart from an efficient supply of water services security of supply in the short run and the long run is of significant importance, as interruptions can be costly to business and might deter some businesses from locating in Ireland. Disruptions are also very inconvenient to the general public. Given that drinking water is a scarce resource and one that is provided at significant cost, water should be used efficiently; that is, it should not be wasted. Excessive water demand results in increased infrastructure requirements and, thus, increased costs.

The status quo appears to be at odds with at least some of these objectives. The production of drinking water in Ireland is characterised by a high level of fragmentation. While there are 34 water service authorities, there are over 2,000 separate public and group water scheme supplies. This implies that scale economies and other efficiencies are not captured, resulting in higher costs. A significant portion - over 40% - of treated water is unaccounted for; that is, it is lost through leakage, which implies a higher cost per unit at the tap.

Currently, few consumers face incentives to ensure they use water efficiently, given that almost all households do not pay directly for water, although some members of group water schemes are paying for water and have had meters installed. While businesses face water charges, these do not seem to reflect the cost of production or scarcity. The variation is very large in that the price of water in Wicklow - €3.04 per cu. m. - is more than double that in Kildare - €1.49 per cu. m. - yet both counties receive some of their water from the same source, the Liffey. Dublin city, Fingal and south Dublin, which also receive water from the Liffey, also have very low costs for water.

The price differences across counties indicate that there are significant differences in costs of providing water and, given that the price for water from the same source differs significantly, this indicates there is a degree of cross-subsidisation within local authorities.

Although drinking water in Ireland is generally safe and of high quality, a significant number of exceedances are recorded every year and some of these are highly persistent, threatening public health. The 2007 cryptosporidium outbreak in Galway is an example. In addition, there is a range of concerns about the security of supply in the short and long run. For example, extreme weather events such as the cold winter of 2010-11 have resulted in significant disruption of supplies. Changed weather patterns in response to global warming and changed demand through the pattern of population growth could compromise the ability to meet water demand in the medium to long run.

Given the shortcomings identified above, the commitment by the Government to reform the sector is welcome. The move towards charging households directly for water, which has been resisted for many years, has the potential to result in more efficient use of water and might reduce the volume of waste water that has to be treated. The establishment of Irish Water can yield improvements in the supply of water and waste water treatment services.

Given the range of objectives, the difficult starting position and the complexity involved, the degree to which the services are improved with respect to the objectives I have noted depends on the specific measures taken. Simply aggregating fragmented services into one larger service provider does not necessarily lead to an optimal outcome. The cost of water and waste water services is not trivial, amounting to €1.2 billion in 2010, with operational expenditure, OPEX, accounting for €715 million and capital expenditure, CAPEX, accounting for just over €500 million. Some revenue is raised through direct charges to businesses, which in 2010 amounted to an income of €263 million, that figure coming from the PricewaterhouseCooper report. On the basis of some plausible assumptions the cost per household in 2010 was just over €630. That is not necessarily equivalent to the long-term cost that will have to be charged. These future costs will be influenced by a range of decisions. These include decisions regarding the roll-out of metering, the level of capital investment in pipes and treatment plants, the nature of the financing arrangements, efficiency gains in the supply of water services and reduced demand for water services.

The current reform proposals appear to encompass universal roll-out of water meters. However there are a number of issues regarding the roll-out of meters that can have a substantial impact on the net benefits of the water services reform and these need to be assessed in a thorough cost-benefit analysis. Water abstraction costs differ significantly across the country, an example being the Shannon basin v. the Liffey. Likewise, treatment costs are likely to differ, as are investment needs. Indeed, the potential demand response to metering might enable certain investments to be deferred or even avoided, for example, the Lough Derg-Dublin pipeline. In this context it is likely that the benefits and costs of meters will vary across regions. Therefore the cost benefit analysis of the roll-out of water meters should be done separately for each river basin district as the benefit cost ratios are likely to vary significantly.

The demand response due to charging comprises two elements namely leak reduction and more general demand reduction, which in turn depend on the incentives set through metering and the charging structure. With regard to metering, two aspects are particularly important. First, meters are unlikely to provide the full benefit if they are read infrequently, for example, once a year, as this would give householders insufficient information on their water usage. More frequent meter reading will result in higher costs. However, it is likely that smart energy meters will be rolled out over the next few years. These include a communications module that allows for frequent remote reading of meters. The possibility of linking water meters to the communications module of the smart energy meters should be considered as this has the potential to achieve cost savings by avoiding duplication and reducing meter reading costs. Second, the location of the meter is important. Meters can be located either within a property or at the boundary of the property. The key difference in terms of benefit is that leaks external to a property are not immediately attributable to the householder if the meter is located inside the property. On the other hand, internal meters are more likely to be monitored by householders. Presumably one would notice a leak inside the house. The cost of the two options differs significantly.

A range of figures regarding the cost of rolling out meters have been put forward. In this respect the experience in the UK is of particular interest as different types of options have been implemented there. The Walker review of 2009 considers the cost of alternative meter installations. Internal installation was found to cost between £106 and £385, and external installation in new boxes cost between £293 and £471. Using the highest figure of £471 and the lowest, £106, and assuming that meters are rolled out to 1.48 million households, the total cost in this country would range between less than €200 million and more than €800 million. I have made the conversion to euro. This shows that the type and cost of installation has a very significant impact on the total cost. For this example, the implication of the calculations is that the benefit of external installation would have to be more than €600 million higher than that for an internal installation in order to pass economic criteria. Therefore, a cost benefit analysis should consider the costs and benefits of internal and external installation.

The demand response to water charges depends crucially on the nature of the charging mechanism. The two part structure that has been proposed, where a free allowance is given beyond which a volumetric charge is applied, could result in lower benefits than a purely volumetric system. The reason for this is readily demonstrated. If the free allowance that is given exceeds the total water demanded for a household then the additional or marginal cost of consuming an additional cubic meter of water is zero. One would get all one's water for free. Even if the allowance is set so as to correspond to the average demand across the country then a substantial number of households - those with below average demand - will not face a positive marginal cost. This means they do not face an incentive to conserve water and end up paying nothing. Assuming full cost recovery in the system implies that those who consume above the set volume will subsidise those who consume below that level. To eliminate this the free allowance must be below the minimum demand for water by household. In general, it is difficult to see an advantage in this two part mechanism and ideally charges should be purely volumetric. I would favour a rising tariff.

Household charges are regressive as they do not reflect the ability to pay but are related only to consumption. One obvious solution is not to charge those who might be adversely affected, for example, pensioners or the unemployed. The impact of such concessions is likely to be non-trivial in financial terms. However, while they would help to address the distributional issues such concessions imply that those groups that are exempt from the charges will not be incentivised to reduce their demand for water, which constitutes another cost. A more efficient approach would be to give a cash allowance which would pay for an acceptable level of water and to let individuals decide if they will consume that quantity of water or if they prefer to consume a lower amount of water. This would ensure that they are still incentivised to consume less.

An important reason for amalgamating the water authorities into one company is to generate efficiency savings. These encompass staffing, administration and financing costs. The degree to which such efficiency gains are going to be achieved depends on the approach taken by Irish Water and the regulatory regime. With regard to staffing it would appear likely that Irish Water will in the first instance take over the existing workforce which, given the fragmentation of the service, is likely to be significantly larger than that needed. In reducing staff numbers it will be important to preserve some degree of local knowledge. One model that might be considered is to outsource services but to enable existing staff to tender for the service. Utilising the communications module of the smart energy meters has already been highlighted as a potential source of administration cost savings.

The cost of water and waste water services into the future will depend crucially on the regulatory approach and investment needs. There are alternative models such as price capping or rate of return regulation. Detailed calculations are not possible as key data is not available publicly. However, the difference in terms of price to the household of different scenarios could easily be in the order of 10%. It is, therefore, important to carefully establish the regulatory framework for water services.

The relationship between the economic regulator and the environmental regulator needs to be set out explicitly. It appears the Commission for Energy Regulation, CER, will take on the responsibility of the economic regulation of the proposed Irish Water. The Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, will continue to be the environmental regulator. The relationship between the two, in particular potential conflicts between the two, need to be carefully considered and appropriate measures need to be incorporated in legislation. Conflicts may arise, for example, where environmental regulations imply significant additional investment needs that would increase prices significantly.

In common with other infrastructures and utilities, water services are highly location specific. There is significant spatial variation in costs, capacity and quality. As such, water services have important implications for regional development. For example, the water abundance in the Shannon basin should imply a lower cost of water due to lower abstraction costs holding all else equal. It possesses a natural advantage to attract firms that are water intensive. Charging the same price for water across the country removes this comparative advantage and implies an implicit transfer from water abundant regions to regions where water is scarce. To the extent that a common price implies a distortion of prices, customers in water abundant areas will face a higher price than they should and those in water scarce regions will face prices that are too low. This issue can readily be taken into account by allowing different prices for each river basin district.

This overview of many, but not all, important aspects of water services highlights the decisions regarding the sector's reform have a significant bearing on the cost to customers and, therefore, impact on competitiveness. I hope my briefing has been useful and I am happy to answer questions to the best of my ability to further aid the committee's deliberations. There were quite a number of questions earlier that I would have loved to answer.

Dr. Morgenroth can address those in his closing remarks.

I thank Dr. Morgenroth for his presentation. He referred to safeguards for public health and the food and drinks sector. There have not, however, been a large number of cases of poor quality water affecting this sector, apart from the Galway problem which was not caused by contamination but flooding and an engineering problem. I have not heard of Guinness having to turn off the taps because the water supply to its factory was bad or Avonmore's factory on the Nore stopping production because the water supply was contaminated.

Dr. Morgenroth claimed the cost of water supply to a business may deter some companies. Again, I am not aware of that happening. From other presentations to the committee I recall the commercial cost of water to companies is competitive compared with other European countries.

Having one pipeline supplying up to 11 counties could be a large threat to security of supply, not least someone wanting to sabotage it, or a burst pipe. In 1968 the first targets of the bombing campaign by Unionist paramilitaries in the North were reservoirs.

We should stay away from bombing.

I am thinking more of a case of a pipeline accident. Dr. Morgenroth stated there are over 2,000 group water schemes with some 900 of these supplying public supplies. There is nothing wrong with that as it creates better security of supply.

The claim is that if water is metered the volume of water used will drop. We should not always use England, Scotland and Wales as examples. However, evidence from them shows metering did not have a significant impact on water use. In fact, according to 2008 figures, Dublin water use was 148 litres per head per day; in England, Scotland and Wales, it was 10 litres more.

Some low-cost measures such as the fitting of dual flush toilets can assist in water conservation. For example, a local authority will provide a mobility aid grant which could be for the upgrading of a house's bathroom. It would be simple to put in a requirement that a dual flush system be installed in the works. I know contractors would be happy to go along with such an arrangement.

Water harvesting is expensive and difficult to do through retrofitting. We missed the boat on this one like we missed so many other boats by not introducing these measures during the boom. We should still keep water harvesting under review even for domestic houses. Based on evidence, it is costly enough to retrofit harvest systems.

These are points the committee can make in its recommendations. Does the Deputy have questions for Dr. Morgenroth?

Does Dr. Morgenroth believe water charges will be excessive and affect already burdened low-income households? Many of them, particularly in rural areas, are faced with rising fuel costs, septic tank charges, the new household charge and bin charges. Does Dr. Morgenroth believe the proposed water charge will see a risk of water poverty, similar to that of fuel poverty?

I refer to the end of Dr. Morgenroth's paper. The PwC report referred to water basin charging and Dr. Morgenroth produced interesting figures, which were €3 in Wicklow compared with €1.49 in Dublin city. When the population density and the numbers supplied are factored in, efficiencies can be made but if that argument is taken to its logical conclusion, electricity prices and services should vary from region to region because it would cost more to supply electricity in Kerry and west Cork than in Dublin, Galway, Limerick or Cork.

Page 4 refers to a cash allowance. How would that work? It is an interesting solution. I would like Dr. Morgenroth to elaborate on that or to point me in the right direction regarding the research into this because if low-income families received a cash allowance for saving on water use, it would give them additional money in their pockets while ensuring water conservation.

I agree with him that the frequency of meter reading is pivotal. Other countries use colour coding on customers' bills. For example, a red mark signifies that one has significantly exceeded the allowance while amber and green are used to signify other levels of usage. Does that work as a conservation measure? While installing a meter may not necessarily change behaviour, its benefit is in incentivising the control of water use. It is not just about the meter; it is about how it is billed and people understanding the effect of the volume of water they use. The metering system put in place in other countries does not necessarily allow for frequent meter reading to enable consumers to reduce their water use or to reasonably control their bill.

I refer to the issue of guaranteed supply. As Deputy Stanley mentioned earlier, major companies have had water supply difficulties, albeit during periods of flooding. During the floods of 2009, breweries in Cork had serious difficulties. Heineken, which owns the Murphys brewery, had to contact its Amsterdam base and import product into Ireland even though it had a manufacturing plant in the city. That also raises the issue of water quality. What are Dr. Morgenroth's views on guaranteed supply? Both quality and supply need to be guaranteed to attract foreign investment into the State.

He also mentioned meter location on several occasions. The committee has examined this issue extensively. Where is the best location for the meter in his experience and why does he think that?

What does he consider to be the minimum demand for a household? Deputy Stanley mentioned 148 litres per household. Social Justice Ireland proposed 150 litres a day when its representatives appeared before the committee. Dr. Morgenroth argues that the allowance needs to be just below the minimum demand as a conservation measure. What does he consider this threshold to be?

He referred to an increasing tariff, which is an interesting concept. If the average household usage is 150 litres per person per day, where will the increased tariff kick in where somebody exceeds the threshold?

Dr. Edgar Morgenroth

I will take the questions in turn. With regard to the cost to business, Deputy Humphreys is right that, by and large, prices are competitive but they are cross subsidised. I think the committee took evidence from Cork. I cannot remember who it was but the person gave evidence that the full capital cost is not reflected in the price because it is a cross subsidy. When one examines the current pricing data, the fact that Kildare County Council charges just under €1.50 and Wicklow County Council charges €3 for water coming from the same source suggests one is cross subsidising the water. It is the same if one goes to Dublin and if one asks Dublin City Council, it will admit that. That is an issue.

There are two aspects to security of supply, which the Deputy also commented on. The first is water not arriving and the second is water that one cannot use. The latest example in the news over the past day or two is the oil spill on the River Deel. A food plant had to temporarily shut down because of this. There have been other examples, including in Galway. The source did not matter because the water could not be used and hoteliers in the city had a serious problem for an ongoing period. This is an important issue when it comes to regulation and how this issue is dealt with. One should have penalties for periods when the supply is disrupted or unusable. That would incentivise the new agency to provide the water and look after this issue.

The Deputy said that one pipe is more risky than having multiple pipes. I am a member of a private group water scheme. The fact that it exists is no good to anyone in Dublin because we cannot get the water from there to Dublin. We have lots of water. We have to be a little careful with the number of supplies and how that benefits security of supply. The existence of this group water scheme does not even benefit my local area once one travels a small distance from there in the context of security of supply because it is not connected to the local authority network. Redundancy, certainly in the big mains, within the network is an issue, which should be addressed by a regulatory approach.

It was stated several times that the UK has a higher water demand than Ireland per person. There are two aspects to that. First, nobody can truly know what is the demand in Ireland because we do not have meters. How does one know how much people use when they do not have meters? Estimates are used in Ireland. Second, a large number of households in the UK also do not have meters. Meters in England, for instance, are voluntary. Studies show robustly that for those areas where metering applies, there was a drop of just over 10% in demand. However, one would not apply for a meter if it was voluntary if one had high usage and, therefore, the people with relatively low usage have meters and those with high usage do not have them. They use water in a different way and that would explain why there are discrepancies in the numbers between the UK and Ireland. Further afield, for instance, Germany, where the price of water is increasing, the demand for water is falling and the average is down to 122 litres per day. Robust evidence is available to show there is a demand response, that is, the higher the prices, the lower the demand.

On the point about statutory requirements in building regulations, for example, on dual flush, we should, as a matter of course, adopt a requirement that new buildings, few as they are, incorporate some of the relevant technologies. Given that these come at virtually no extra cost, it is difficult to see the reason this is not being done.

On the issue of low income households and excessive charges, the important point is that water is not free. The average cost of water in 2010 was €630 per household. This cost can be charged through the taxation system or directly through a water charge. I believe the latter is a better mechanism provided one makes allowance for households that will have trouble meeting the costs. I prefer water charges because they incentivise households to be careful in their use of water, which is an expensive resource that costs money to treat.

In my opening statement I dealt with what I consider to be a good approach to incentivise even those who will find it difficult to pay. The current thinking seems to be to give a free water allowance to households. Where the allowance is higher than the household's usage, the householder does not pay anything for water and does not have an incentive to conserve it. Poor households, like everyone else, should be incentivised to conserve water. The means of achieving this objective is to give people a choice of spending money where they wish to spend it. For instance, if it is the case that it is considered appropriate that a household would consume 140 litres per day - one can argue about the numbers - the household would be given the cost of this amount by means of an allowance. It would be relatively straightforward to administer such an allowance through the social welfare system if it were the case that social welfare recipients were deemed to need the allowance. They could then choose where they wished to spend the money. Those who are especially careful with water would then be incentivised to conserve water and could spend some of the allowance elsewhere. While this approach would still have a cost to the Exchequer - as would giving the free water allowance - it has the advantage that it would incentivise the use of water. That is the thinking behind it. This idea emerges when one thinks through this system. When one examines how people respond to free allowances, one finds that they are no longer incentivised to be careful. For example, if one were to give people a large electricity allowance, the problem would be that they would have light bulbs everywhere, whereas if they had the freedom to make choices, they would choose differently. The approach I advocate would benefit householders by making them better off and society through the more efficient use of resources.

On the PricewaterhouseCoopers report on water pricing on the basis of river basin districts and electricity, there is already a small rural versus urban difference in electricity prices. Deputy Humphreys is correct, however, that if one followed through on this argument, one would charge differently for all utilities depending on their cost. As it happens, the price differences in water are likely to be larger than they are for electricity and telecommunications, for instance. We have a system in which utility providers are essentially asked to provide the same fee or charge for everyone. The regional development implications of this were never properly considered. As a rural dweller, I am receiving something of a subsidy because I am living up a hill where the infrastructure costs of delivering electricity are more expensive than they are elsewhere, specifically in urban settings. No one has given much thought to how this practice incentivises different types of behaviour and settlement patterns. We should think about this issue before making decisions. It has a different impact on regional development in terms of the location of firms. Companies in industries that are relatively water intensive, for instance, the paper industry which requires large amounts of water, are likely to locate in areas where water is cheaper. If water is the same price everywhere, the advantage naturally enjoyed by certain areas is lost to them and other factors then come into play.

Water supply is an issue in the location of firms. I understand, for instance, that insufficient water was one of the reasons for Wyeth's decision not to expand in County Kildare. The absorptive capacity of the River Liffey was not sufficient and this was a binding constraint for the company. There are cases where this has serious regional development implications. We should think about and research these issues to some degree before we jump in.

Deputy Humphreys referred to the cash allowance approach. While I cannot think of an example, the argument is compelling on its own merits because one obtains an extra benefit at a cost that is probably not higher than the water allowance approach.

A large number of issues arise around metering and we should first have evidence before us before making big decisions. The frequency with which meters are read needs to be sufficiently regular to be of use. If a meter is read only once each year, it will not achieve much. How can one alter one's behaviour if one does not know what is going on? Colour coding of bills appears to be a very good, no-cost option. Some of the research on smart meters has shown that people sometimes do not have a precise understanding of their bills and cannot alter their demand because one needs to first understand them. There is definitely evidence available to show that one needs to accompany measures such as metering with other initiatives, including explaining to people what is involved and the reason changes are being made. A public awareness campaign is needed at the time of the roll-out.

Issues also arise regarding the location of meters. As I showed in my opening statement, there is potentially a significant difference in the price or cost of an internal and external installation. There appears to be something of a fixation on an external installation, yet I have not seen a cost-benefit analysis to show this is the optimal approach. If we opt for an external installation, it is unlikely that it will be possible to marry that approach with the smart meters and communications module. One would end up duplicating to some degree and one would have drive-by meters around which there are all sorts of unresolved issues. For instance, where does one install a meter in the case of a property that begins up a private lane? Should it be installed 300 m from the property on the main road or at a location on the lane? If one opts for the latter, driving up the lane with a drive-by meter will be costly. These issues need to be properly assessed and the calculations done before a location is selected. I have some doubts about the likely benefits of external installation over internal installation. There is potential for efficiencies from installing water and energy meters at the same time. That would also allow one to get around some of the access issues. By piggybacking on the communications module, it would be possible to examine fluctuations in demand with greater care because the information would be supplied in real time for all households. This would allow the system to be tailored better. I suspect I would opt for an internal installation, although I would prefer to see the evidence before me. On the rough calculations that I have made, that would be the more efficient approach.

I have already dealt with the issue of guaranteed supplies. Irish Water should face penalties for outages. Minimum demand is an interesting question. The numbers outlined reflect average demand but, to take an example, holiday homes, which presumably will be billed separately, could have extremely low demands if they are only occupied for several weeks each year. Such dwellings could turn out to be completely exempt from water charges, which I am not sure is an efficient way of incentivising behaviour. My view is that minimum demand would have to be small, which has implications for lower income households. However, lower income households should be dealt with once rather than through multiple measures because that would complicate matters and add administrative burdens.

I would set a relatively low tariff from zero litres per day. I would start at the very bottom to charge something because every drop of water costs money to produce. I would probably set it below its actual cost of production until a certain point and ratchet it up thereafter. Above a certain extremely high level, such as 200 litres per day, I would really ramp up the price. This would prevent the practice of people running taps for long periods in cold conditions, which is extremely costly and resulted in some of the problems that arose last year. Where people fail to deal with a leak which they see occurring, real penalties should apply in terms of price.

Clearly one must work out the specific pricing structure but the figure I suggested of €640 per household equates to more than €4 per cubic metre. This is a very different figure to the costs that firms face at present, which brings me back to the issue of cross-subsidisation. We can only produce rough numbers because the detailed data is not in the public domain and all we have to work with is a redacted report. If the base price is €4 per cubic metre, I would double the price for usage above 200 litres.

Regarding industry, we should not jump in with a big solution called "Irish Water". Almost half the amount charged for commercial water supply is not being collected. I am sure the chamber of commerce in Kildare will be lobbying for reductions in the cost of water and asking the council to be less stringent about collecting it but if a multinational is deciding whether to locate in a certain area, it is in a company's interest to pay up unless it has gone bankrupt to ensure the multinational does not go elsewhere. The solution lies in the local government system as it currently exists.

In regard to charging by meter or other means of taxation, this State imposes a high level of indirect taxes compared with other states. Some of us also pay high rates of direct taxes. If there was a corresponding reduction in other areas of tax so that we could return to the levels that applied in 1977 we could start over by introducing reforms rather than driving a bulldozer through the tax structure to win an election. That is the discussion we need to have.

Can I take it that Dr. Morgenroth would be in favour of seasonal pricing for water as a water conservation measure? Clearly demand would vary at different times of the year. That recommendation is also contained in the PwC report.

Dr. Edgar Morgenroth

The case for seasonal pricing is not as strong as that for spatial or regional pricing because treatment costs are unlikely to vary significantly. While the availability of raw water will vary across seasons, whatever is put through the treatment system will incur similar costs. In the event of a flood, water would need more rather than less treatment because there would be more sediments in surface water bodies. The other reason I am not sure I would go as far as seasonal pricing is because it becomes extremely complicated for householders. One could also argue that a varying tariff would be complicated for a householder. A balance needs to be struck between efficiency gains and the disadvantages that might be created.

It is an interesting statistic that almost half of commercial water charges are not collected. It suggests there is something wrong with the collection mechanism, which is an issue for local authorities. Ultimately what we consume in water has to be produced somehow, and that entails a cost. The big issue is how we are going to meet that cost in the future. One of the problems we face is that money for capital investment is simply not available. It is difficult to get into the markets and in Ireland it is currently impossible for the public sector to borrow from the markets. That is why we are in a bailout. A funding stream is, however, available to utilities like Irish Water once a safe revenue stream can be generated. This funding should be available at reasonable rates. The real issue, when considering why we would go for an Irish water company, is the requirement to finance the long-term needs of the sector, which we cannot currently meet through the Exchequer. That is quite important. The other thing is that by being off the balance sheet, whatever borrowing the company would incur is not counted towards the national debt, which seems important at the moment. That is another reason for setting up an Irish water company. Ultimately - there is quite convincing evidence for this internationally - there are returns to scale in the provision of water services. Those are not currently achieved in Ireland, so there is certainly a benefit to some degree of consolidation within the sector. Whether that consolidation should go as far as one company or several companies is another matter. A priori, I would probably have preferred a separate company for each river basin district. That would have been a kind of regional body, and we have few functioning regional bodies, as members mentioned earlier.

I will need to conclude the meeting shortly.

Dr. Edgar Morgenroth

That might be the question. The advantage of a single company is that it would be able to finance its investment needs much more efficiently than seven companies.

I thank Dr. Morgenroth for assisting us in our deliberations. This concludes not just this session but all sessions in which witnesses come before us to discuss this matter. We will now commence to produce the findings and recommendations of this examination by the committee.

The joint committee adjourned at 6 p.m. until 2.15 p.m. on Tuesday, 31 January 2012.
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