JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, TRANSPORT, CULTURE AND THE GAELTACHT debate -
Tuesday, 7 Feb 2012

Regulation of Vehicle Clamping Industry: Discussion (Resumed)

Chairman

We now come to our consideration of the regulations of the vehicle clamping industry. I welcome from the Irish Parking Association Mr. Keith Gavin, secretary, Mr. Dave Cullen, director, Mr. Neil Cunningham, director, and Mr. Tom Harrington. I thank them for their attendance. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, you are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence you are to give this committee.

However, if you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in respect of a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise or make charges against any person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I will give some context to this afternoon's meeting. In the coming weeks, the committee will examine the broad area of clamping as we did last week. The intention is to bring proposals to the Minister, Deputy Varadkar's Department with regard to the potential legislation to be put in place in this area. The objective of bringing today's witnesses and other stakeholders before the committee is to assist the committee in scoping out its ideas and making its recommendations in this regard. I call on Mr. Gavin to address the committee and I thank the Irish Parking Association for assisting us in these deliberations.

Mr. Keith Gavin

I thank the Chairman for providing us with the opportunity to address the committee today. I will briefly run through the formal submission which we have made to the committee previously and I will cover the main points of it. I will provide some background on who we are. The Irish Parking Association was established in 1995. It was set up to represent all stakeholders within the parking industry, including car park operators, local authorities, equipment suppliers and other key stakeholders in the industry. As recently as 2010 the industry was valued at approximately €350 million per annum and it employs more than 1,500 people. Basically, these are who we represent. Our objective as a trade association is to promote professional standards and professional parking practices in the industry.

The specific issue before the committee is vehicle clamping. Previously, the Irish Parking Association has welcomed this initiative to regulate clamping and to bring some clarity to the issue because currently there is no legislation governing the area of vehicle clamping on private property.

As part of its overall drive to increase professional standards in the industry the Irish Parking Association introduced a voluntary code of conduct some years ago. Basically, we have followed the guidelines of the British Parking Association and its code of conduct for vehicle clamping. This consists of the following three main principles. First, where clamping is in force on private property there should be clear and adequate signage outlining that clamping is in operation. Second, there should be reasonable release fees and a reasonable de-clamping response time. Third, an independent appeals procedure should be made available for dispute resolution. Only operators which adhere to this code of practice are welcome as members of the Irish Parking Association.

We all appreciate that there is a requirement for parking enforcement and the application of regulations for parking and parking practice. At the moment, operators have no real alternative in respect of enforcement on private property. Enforcement operators do not have access to the national vehicle registration file and, therefore, effectively they cannot implement a fixed penalty charge or ticketing regime.

Overall, the Irish Parking Association welcomes the general provisions of the proposed Bill but we note there is no provision for or taking account of alternative methods of parking enforcement. I will outline the main points we wish to make in respect of the proposed legislation. There are constant references to vehicle clamping and the clamping industry. We believe clamping is not an industry in itself. Rather it is an enforcement method used by parking operators for enforcing parking regulations on private land. It is a small area with fewer than ten organisations active in the country at present in parking enforcement on private property. Of these, we estimate the top three organisations are responsible for more than 90% of parking enforcement activities. Fortunately in Ireland, unlike the United Kingdom, we do not have nor have we had any major problems with road clampers. Clamping is a remarkably successful tool in the management of traffic in certain situations. It has been found to be most effective in Dublin city centre following its introduction in the late 1990s.

Some members of the Irish Parking Association are particularly keen to see the introduction of a feasible and practical alternative to vehicle clamping as an additional parking enforcement tool. The obvious option to enable this would be to allow licensed private operators to have access to the national vehicle registration file. This would allow them to pursue fines and unpaid tickets in an effective manner. This is similar to the approach used throughout Europe, in the United Kingdom, Scandinavia and Germany, etc.

In the event of new legislation being introduced in this area we urge that any licensing fee levied on operators should be reasonable and it should reflect the small scale of this sector of the parking industry and the limited number of organisations currently operating in this area. We believe that imposing onerous licensing fees would inevitably result in higher charges for motorists because operators would have to pass on the charges to the public.

We also believe that any legislation introduced and the proscribing of set clamp release fees must be cognisant of the costs incurred by professional operators providing such a service, including the higher VAT rates applicable, staff and vehicle costs, credit card processing fees, information technology and back-office costs, appeals procedures and so on. The Irish parking Association, IPA, recommends that any proposed legislation and regulation of vehicle clamping on private property should reflect the main principles in the IPA's existing code of practice for enforcement operators, that is to say, the three principles I outlined earlier.

Finally, the IPA respectfully requests an active role in any licensing or regulatory structure established on foot of the proposed legislation. We believe we have a valuable contribution to make to the implementation of any regulations in this sector and that our experience and expertise in implementing an effective voluntary code of practice for the industry can provide a useful input to the establishment of any new regime to regulate the area on parking enforcement on private property.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I thank Mr Gavin for his presentation. This is an important opportunity for us to have a discussion generally with the industry to try to establish how we might best put forward proposals that will ultimately become law. At this stage I take the presentation as read and I have no detailed questions. Again, I thank Mr. Gavin for the presentation and I look forward to hearing the other presentations

Deputy Dessie Ellis

I thank Mr. Gavin for his presentation. We are all keen to see proper legislation in this area because it is long overdue. Many of us have had experience of being in certain private estates where cars have been clamped in problematic circumstances. Does the delegation envisage a role for penalty points in any form in the forthcoming Bill? Is there any role for using penalty points? The way in which private estates are run appears to be rather ad hoc. There are management companies and they, in turn, use clamping companies. They tend to work in this way and the Garda is out of the loop. Does the delegation envisage any role for the Garda in these private estates? When cars are clamped, often residents complain that they should not have been clamped. The decision is taken by the clamping company in conjunction with the management company. Does the Irish Parking Association see a role for itself in that area?

Signage is also a major issue. We do not see enough signage warning people that clamping is in operation. In many of the private estates, one does not see signs saying cars will be clamped if they are parked there, illegally or otherwise. There is also an issue when people have to go looking for their cars despite having had a genuine reason for having parked there. With regard to the mechanism they can use to make a case, is there a role for legislation? Is there a need for legislation to take account of people who have had to park in an emergency situation, for example, when someone has to rush to hospital? A man who had attended Blanchardstown hospital a few weeks ago with a serious injury came out of the hospital to find his car clamped. Despite his injury, he had to go through a whole procedure to get his car back. Is there a way of dealing with such situations more humanely?

Mr. Keith Gavin

I will hand over to my colleagues for them to address the various issues raised.

Mr. Tom Harrington

On the issue of penalty points, if penalty points were to apply following the clamping of a car on private land, we would need access to the national vehicle file to follow up on that. We could administer such a system, but I am not sure people deserve penalty points for having been clamped. The Deputy also asked about the Garda and its role. Garda time and resources are already well spent fighting crime. We have an independent appeals process to deal with genuine complaints and it works quite well.

On signage, on any of the sites we manage the sites are surveyed and signs are erected in prominent locations and are reflective so that they can be seen at night. If we had a regulated system whereby the amount of signage required was legislated for, that would help. Perhaps there are companies that do not erect proper signage, but I doubt they would be members of the Irish Parking Association at present. With regard to an emergency declamp, but without comment on any particular case, we would defer to the security on site of the parking of any hospital we are involved in managing and if they informed us it was a genuine emergency, we would remove the clamp straight away. However, if there was a way to recoup costs afterwards if it was found not to be a real emergency, we could look at doing that through access to the national vehicle file.

Mr. Dave Cullen

I will respond to the question relating to Blanchardstown because it is my company that would have clamped that gentleman. That situation indicates the reason clamping is not a one size fits all solution. There have been some terribly involved cases in Blanchardstown. Our contract with the HSE is to clamp people who do not pay for parking, regardless. It is a black and white solution for cases that are not always black and white. I am sure we would have refunded the gentleman in question in due course, but it is a stressful situation. It makes the argument for the fixed penalty charge, where someone receives a fine and can go home and sort it out in a week's time or so. We are all agreed that clamping is quite draconian and is not the perfect solution for every case. Unfortunately, we do not have an alternative currently.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

I have another example of what happens in Blanchardstown hospital. A man went into the hospital very ill and was admitted for two days. When he was discharged, he found his car had been clamped and he had to face the rigmarole of having it released. All the parking company need have done was to go to hospital security and ascertain if the man was ill and admitted. However, he was sent through the hoops and the matter is still ongoing.

Mr. Neil Cunningham

It is very difficult to deal with such instances straight away on the site, especially in the case of clamping. Unfortunately, most people, especially in a hospital environment, present their case as an emergency. Everyone who is clamped in those situations is able to come up with some reason as to why his or her car was parked illegally and justify it should not be clamped. Part of our submission concentrates on the area of choice. We feel, as Mr. Cullen said, that a clamp does not fit all solutions. Unfortunately, it is the only way we can enforce parking on private property currently. A good alternative, especially in a hospital environment, would be that we would have the right to issue a parking ticket to that car. That is the standard practice across every other European country. Ireland is the exception in that regard.

Chairman

Do the companies have the ability to issue tickets and how are they enforced?

Mr. Neil Cunningham

A ticket is issued. The company I work for is an international company that operates in 12 European countries. How we operate elsewhere is that we issue a parking ticket, called a "fixed penalty notice". That is issued to the car and the process for the collection of that fine starts thereafter.

Chairman

Does that process have legal standing in those countries? Can it be enforced?

Mr. Neil Cunningham

Yes, in some countries it could, ultimately, go to a small claims court environment and prior to that and in other countries it could go to a debt collection company. There is quite a successful process for collecting the fines and there is 85% plus collection, which is quite high for a ticketing environment. It is a better service to operate, whereas clamping cars is an expensive service to run. Two visits are required for clamping and unclamping the car whereas issuing tickets requires only one visit. Therefore it is also a cheaper service for an operator to run.

Chairman

Can the fine be met through staged payments or must it made as a one-off payment?

Mr. Neil Cunningham

The fine is a one-off payment. The cost of administering and collecting the fine is quite expensive, but it is a one-off fine. However, the fine escalates in cost as the period extends. If for example there is a 28-day period to pay the fine and it is not paid by then, the fine increases through the various stages that follow.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

There is a world of difference between parking in a large multistorey car park in a city and some of the private car-parking arrangements in towns and near train stations and similar places. When people enter a multistorey car park they have an expectation with regard to how it will function. Mention has been made of signage, release fees and independent fees. Release fees are typically somewhere between €110 and €120. This could be the fee although the person has only been parked 15 minutes in a small car park where there is no public car park available. That kind of punitive penalty runs people out of towns. We need some common sense with regard to how this type of parking is managed. In some situations, there is an alternative and that alternative is a barrier system, where people must pay to get out. This system functions very well in some places. There are not just the two options, the fixed penalty and the clamping. I know of a man who when he came out from a business lunch and found his car clamped said he would never go to that location again. That is the sort of consequence that must be taken on board. I accept there must be turnover in parking spaces and that people should not remain in them long term in the locations in question.

On the independent appeals mechanism, I have never found this satisfactory from the point of view of dealing with private operators in any cases in which I have been involved. When a range of companies operate in the one locations, this causes terrible confusion. Would it not be preferable for one company to operate in a town or for there to be a standard regime? People do not know who owns every piece of land or whether parking rules differ between areas located on opposite sides of a road. Such matters do not occur to people until they receive a penalty or fine.

This issue must be viewed from the perspective of the end user. The vehicle clamping industry will never gain acceptance unless people clearly understand the rules and they are applied with fairness. This may be the purpose of signage but it is not unusual for multiple operators to operate in one location, which is a major cause of confusion.

On licensing private operators to issue fixed penalty notices, would it not be possible for the proposal to be implemented in reverse? In other words, should those responsible for maintaining the vehicle registration database not be allowed to work as agents for the private operators? This would not necessitate the introduction of a licensing system for private operators and would facilitate the introduction of an alternative arrangement. Would such a system be difficult to implement? Would different standards apply in respect of evidence that would be used by private and public operators?

Mr. Keith Gavin

I will respond to some of the questions while my colleagues will address others. In accepting Deputy Murphy's point on different environments, it should be noted that the legal position would apply regardless of the location.

The concept of having only one company operate in each region would be anti-competitive and is not a practical solution.

On the private appeals procedure, we voluntarily established an independent, third party appeals system to give members of the public a second option. In cases where they appeal directly and unsuccessfully to the clamping or enforcement operator, they may avail of the third party appeals procedure. I checked the figures before coming to the meeting and found that more than 300 appeals were lodged in the past year, of which more than 50% were successful. The system works, although it may not be publicised widely enough. For this reason, we believe the association should have a greater role in regulating this area and in promoting the appeals service.

Mr. Dave Cullen

On access to the national vehicle and driver file, our company in the United Kingdom operates in much the same way the Deputy described. It has an online link to the Driver Vehicle and Licensing Agency, DVLA, and pays a fee in return for which the DVLA sends it the keeper's details. We cannot simply access the database to look up a car registration. The DVLA enforces a very strict licence and we must have defined documentation and photographs.

My colleagues photograph every car that is clamped. In the United Kingdom we photograph every car for which we issue a parking fine in order that the decision can be challenged. A key issue relates to the fees. Our company fee of €100 for clamping a vehicle, which is effectively €80 plus VAT, requires us to do at least two call-outs. Frequently, when one is called out to release the clamp, the owner of the vehicle engages us in an argument and may not have the money to pay the release fee, thus giving rise to a third call-out. In practice, our company does not make money out of clamping. The idea that we make a fortune out of clamping is a red herring. Clamping accounts for less than 5% of our turnover.

To use the fixed penalty notice comparison, instead of charging €100, as we do to release a clamp, we would issue parking fines of €30 rising to €50. This option is much more palatable to members of the public. As has been noted, unfortunately we cannot enforce parking charge notices because we cannot access details on vehicle owners.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Could Mr. Cullen provide the joint committee with a copy of the licence? It would be useful to ascertain what parameters it sets.

Mr. Dave Cullen

Yes.

Senator Cáit Keane

I welcome the delegation from the Irish Parking Association. I presume not all parking companies, which are more often referred to as clamping firms, are members of the association. How many parking companies are not members of the IPA and how many members does the association have? How representative is it of the industry?

The benefit of securing access to the registration details of vehicles, whether from local authorities or a national body, would be that parking companies would be able to follow up on fines they issue. As has been noted, such access is provided in other countries. We would need to introduce legislation establishing a national registration body before considering the possibility of allowing a private body to have access to such information. Given the significant amount of information provided on registration of a vehicle, one would not wish to make this information available to every company and legislation would be required. The delegation obviously agrees.

On the fees, local authorities apply different fees in different areas of the county or local authority area. One has different zones, for example, zones A, B and C, and it is cheaper to park in some areas. Even in small villages, it is dearer to park on the main street than on the back streets. Regulations would have to be in place to require the operation of such a zone system to avoid circumstances in which one company would operate such a system while others would not.

Last year, the airwaves were full of stories about clamping companies waiting to pounce and refusing to allow even a five minute grace period for people who parked their cars in certain areas. Callers to "Liveline", in particular, complained about this although parking companies also telephoned Joe Duffy stating they provided a five minute grace period. Grace periods are not set down in writing, although some local authorities operate such a system. Most people would not abuse the system.

What is the position regarding the introduction of a freephone mechanism? Some people do not have a mobile telephone and are unable to make the telephone call required to have their car released.

Mr. Keith Gavin

Again, I will address some of the queries and pass on others to colleagues who will be more familiar with the issues involved. The Senator asked how many companies are members of the association and how many operators are not members. We estimate that fewer than ten organisations are actively involved, at any sort of scale, in parking enforcement on private property. There is another unquantifiable number of one-man band security companies who engage in this activity as part of their facilities management function. The main parking enforcement operators which are members of our association are responsible for more than 90% of parking enforcement activities in the country.

On signage and the furore on the "Liveline" show, we are all familiar with the case in south Dublin in 2010 which gave rise to considerable controversy. This was an isolated example of a rogue operator. As I stated, our members adhere to a code of conduct which includes having clear and adequate signage, reasonable clamp fees, reasonable release fees and an independent third party appeals process.

Grace periods are a difficult issue. If a standard grace period of ten or 15 minutes is applied and everyone is aware of it, it becomes part of the regime and people use the ten minutes as part of their entitlement. It becomes standard.

Mr. Dave Cullen

There are two types of grace time. One is after one has paid and one is beforehand. Another big thing to consider is that, in many of the contracts we have, we do not decide the charges or the grace times. We have Irish Rail contracts and it has a 20 minute grace time at the moment. It varies from client to client. Much of time we are the enforcers but we have very little say in the regime itself.

Mr. Neil Cunningham

Invariably, the property owner is involved and decides the rules. The property owner is involved in the charging, the pricing, if it is a paid car park, and the grace periods that apply. As a company, we would agree those grace periods prior to operating and running the service.

Mr. Tom Harrington

On the point about a freephone number, I think a national rate number is probably more workable, such as 0818 number, so it is a set fee no matter where one is telephoning from. One is not phoning Dublin if one is in Cork and so forth. We would not have any problem with that.

Chairman

I thank the members of the Irish Parking Association for appearing before the committee. I would like to get a feel for the organisation itself. Senator Cáit Keane asked about the number of members. As I understand it, the IPA mainly operates car parks, which the public uses, and provides a service to private residences, retail parks and so on.

There is a multitude of clamping operations with which local authorities may engage. There are 34 different local authorities, so there is potential for 34 different clamping regimes leaving aside what is happening on private property. Would I be right to assume that many clamping companies are not members of the IPA because they do not own car parks? Does the IPA engage their services or does it operate its own clamping operations?

Mr. Keith Gavin

To clarify, the Irish Parking Association is a voluntary trade association comprising all the stakeholders in the industry and not only car park operators. Members include car park operators, parking equipment suppliers, local authority operators and so on. There is a broad spectrum of members in the association.

Chairman

Does it include tow away operators?

Mr. Keith Gavin

The tow away operators would generally be the enforcement operators.

Chairman

There are tow away operators in the IPA.

Mr. Keith Gavin

Yes.

I refer to the number of clamping operators. As I said earlier, the three main operators, which would control more than 90% of the market, are members of the association. There are a couple of other enforcement operators which are members of the association and then there are another three or four, about which we know, that are not members of the association.

Chairman

This committee will look at the operation of a licensing system, for instance. I would like to hear some more of the IPA's thoughts on that, in particular in regard to the regulation of the industry. I think I spoke to one of you on radio recently who argued that it was not an industry. If a company is making money and is operating to make a profit, which is legitimate, then it is an industry.

I refer to regulation. Does the IPA see a separate regulator or a more governed model of self-regulation? What regulation model will it look for?

In his presentation, Mr. Gavin spoke about a voluntary code of conduct or practice. Are there particular aspects of it which the IPA would like to see within a legislative framework? In other words, while this is a code of practice, it needs to be written into legislation and to be given the weight of a legislative framework. If so, what are those aspects of the voluntary code of conduct?

Deputy Catherine Murphy alluded to the following in her contribution. There appears to be a whole menu of tariffs or fines. Local authorities seem to operate within an €80 range. As was indicated, it can vary between €160 and €180 in the case of Iarnród Éireann, some retail park or whatever. Without jumping to the conclusion of this committee's work, the legislation will have to set out how tariff ranges are decided. It cannot be €180 on one side of the road and €80 on the other side. Would the IPA like to see some sort of uniformity in regard to the tariffs and the fines which could be put in place? Ultimately, this is to act as a deterrent to people and not as a profit-based structure.

Will the IPA better explain the appeals process to us? The local authorities operate an appeals process even when they engage private companies to operate on their behalf. I have found from people who have come to my office that the acknowledgements they have received have not been the best at times. Is there consistency among IPA members? Does the code of conduct cover the appeals process?

Where somebody is clamped and must pony up €140 in order for the clamp to be removed from his or her car, is he or she provided with documentation on how he or she may appeal? The secondary appeals process was news to me. Is the public informed about that? If I am clamped and pay €140 or €80, do I get documentation explaining how I may appeal this payment? Am I informed that there is a secondary appeals process if I am not happy with the first one?

We need to look at consistency of approach in legislation in regard to private or public land. I concede what was said that there is no legislation governing this area. There are two extremes in Britain. In Scotland, it has been banned outright but elsewhere, there is an operation which is very much based on what happens in the courts.

Will the IPA deal with one or two urban myths? A legal argument which is presented is that clamping companies are operating illegally and are infringing on people's private property rights. If my car is clamped, are my property rights being infringed upon? Has that ever been tested in the courts? If so, what has been the outcome?

Perhaps the following was on Joe Duffy's programme but it is certainly an urban myth. If somebody finds his or her car clamped, can remove the clamp without doing any damage to it and hand it back to the operator or hand it in to a Garda station - this can be done very easily by letting the air out of the tyre, taking the clamp off and pumping up the type up again - is he or she operating within the law?

Mr. Keith Gavin

That was a lot of questions. I think the Chairman debated - not argued - with me on the radio. In regard to the notion of clamping being an industry, from our point of view, clamping is used by enforcement companies. The operators here would verify the fact that it is not a very profitable activity. It is a small part of their operations. The Chairman said it must be profit-making but the scale of it must be realised. We are talking about a very small number of operators. Although it is perceived as hugely prevalent, it is not really.

The Chairman asked about our voluntary code of conduct. In response to complaints from the public, we decided to introduce a code of conduct. Much work has been done on this by the British Parking Association, which is a far larger organisation than ours. It put together a very comprehensive code of conduct over a number of years, the main principles of which we follow. They are the three points I made about clear signage, reasonable release fees and appeals procedures.

In terms of the independent appeals process, one independent appeals organisation is used by the members of the industry, so there is consistency in that regard. I am not sure - individual operators can tell the committee that themselves - but the notification to motorists is probably not highlighted as much as it should be. When our association is contacted by members of the public about appeals we direct them to the independent appeals process.

Tariffs were mentioned and there is a discrepancy between what is charged on the street by local authorities and what is charged on private land. An example is the Irish Rail regime and others like that. The main source of that discrepancy is VAT which would account for the difference. Fees of €160 to €180 were cited, which would be at the upper end. Such fees would be rare, they are mostly €100 to €120 for private property. As Mr. Cullen spelled out earlier, the costs involved in that procedure quickly eat up the €100 charge.

As regards urban myths and other issues specific to operators, I will let my colleagues answer those.

Mr. Tom Harrington

I will go back to documentation. Every time people get clamped they receive a printed receipt which, on the back, tells them exactly how to appeal. It refers to the independent appeals process, which is an important point.

Mr. Gavin has covered the question of fees. Personally, I would have no issue with a graded level of penalties. For example, someone who abuses a disabled bay should pay €120, whereas if a person is parked overtime on an expired ticket they should pay less. That is perhaps something to consider.

As far as I am aware, the legal argument has not been tested in the Republic of Ireland. It did happen in England and the person who brought the case against the parking operator did not win. The judge found that they had clear and adequate signage. They entered into an agreement when they went past that signage saying that "These are the rules of this carpark and you have effectively entered into a contract".

Chairman

Was it on private property in that case?

Mr. Tom Harrington

That is correct.

Chairman

It was not on the public highway.

Mr. Tom Harrington

No, it was on private property. I do not believe it has been tested in the Republic though.

It is not that easy for a motorist to remove a clamp. When it has happened to us it has been someone with a consaw that has chopped through the clamper chain. They have never been good enough to drop around to the office to return the clamp.

Chairman

Is it an offence to take a clamp off a car?

Mr. Tom Harrington

It would be criminal damage, or theft if they go away with the wheel clamp.

Chairman

Have you taken prosecutions against people who have forcibly taken off clamps?

Mr. Tom Harrington

We have successfully prosecuted such people, yes.

Mr. Neil Cunningham

When one compares the tariff and release fee to the on-street situation, it is important to clarify that the only on-street area in Ireland where they are clamping cars is in Dublin city. Although they have the choice, no other local authority is clamping cars. The €80 fee applies only in Dublin city which is the only location where they are doing it, but that is run at a loss. It clearly does not cover the costs involved. Cork city saw that its revenue from clamping was not covering the costs of that service. In addition, it is much easier to operate a service within a high density area where there is a lot of clamping activity. The service becomes very expensive when one starts dispersing it, as we have on sites in different areas around the country. One might clamp a car and have to declamp it eight hours later, so there are substantial costs involved in servicing those sites outside a high-density area.

Chairman

We examined two issues at previous meetings. One of them was the idea that if private sites are going to operate a clamping or parking regime, they should outline that in their planning application. I would be interested to hear Mr. Cunningham's views on that.

Second, a suggestion was made by committee members that, in the general parking fines scheme, if people paid early there would be a reduction in the fine as an incentive to deal with the administration. If a private fines system was to be considered, as Mr. Cunningham proposed earlier, could it be structured so that people would be incentivised to pay a lower fine earlier? One would not need a clamping van driving around a hospital. It would basically be a person with a cap monitoring the site.

Mr. Neil Cunningham

On the subject of planning permission, we find with our customers - the people who invite us in to manage their sites - that it is a progressive problem. It is not something they identify at a planning stage. That is what a lot of the problems are. In some cases, there might not have been a problem for a number of years and then all of a sudden something happens in the immediate area - it may not have any connection to their site - that creates a demand for parking where there is not enough supply. That then ends up with people encroaching into somebody else's property. I cannot see the planning laws being able to facilitate that because at the planning stage people would not be aware that potential clamping might be required there.

On the idea of paying early, although it is the opposite, essentially the same system currently operates on-street for the fixed penalty notice. Generally, the on-street parking fine is €40. If one does not pay within 28 days it goes up to €60 so there is an incentive to encourage people to pay early. Ideally, we would also encourage such a system if we had the facility to issue fixed-penalty charges on private sites. It can either be an increasing charge beyond a certain period or a discount for paying early.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Essentially, that defeats the whole purpose of the point that is being made. If one gets a ticket in Belfast or some other UK city, and one pays within 14 days, there is no administration because the fine has been paid. However, if somebody fails to pay within a certain period there is a great deal of administration. That is when it goes from €40 to €60. The whole point is to reduce administration by virtue of the fact that the fine is paid within 14 days.

Mr. Neil Cunningham

In fairness, I think we are saying the same thing.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

We are not.

Mr. Neil Cunningham

It depends what one sets as the initial fine. If that were to apply in the on-street market today, they would be pitching it at €60 and if one pays early it is €40. It depends where one sets the fine.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

That is Celtic tiger money.

Mr. Dave Cullen

I want to touch on one point regarding the legalities. There has been one clamping case on private property which I was involved in before I was in the parking industry. It was down at the Irish Financial Services Centre. It went to the High Court and was a massively expensive case where we brought in clamping at the time there were bomb scares down there. It was never brought to fruition, however, so it is untried. It was to eliminate parking because it was a serious threat at the time. It was at the time of the Barings Bank affair.

We are making our submission because we would like to include that type of thing in the legislation. We all have consciences and like to sleep at night, so we would like the public to know that we are reputable operators abiding by the legislation. There are laws and one cannot just cut off clamps when one feels like it. That is why we are actively participating in this.

Chairman

Mr. Cullen is in favour of a regulated structure, but is that self-regulated or externally regulated? The Irish Parking Association's representatives will have to make a value judgment on that. That is why they are here.

Mr. Dave Cullen

Yes. We do run strong self-regulation at the moment, including a code of practice for our members and the appeals process we have in place. We will only accept members who abide by that. Given the scale of the industry and the number of people involved, self-regulation would probably make more sense.

Deputy Tony McLoughlin

The witnessses are very welcome. I have a couple of queries. Who is policing the Irish Parking Association's self regulation? Mr. Cullen mentioned the appeals process but who are people appealing to, if the area is self-regulated? Mr. Cullen also said that approximately 1,500 are employed. Is that countrywide? Is the IPA dealing with local authorities and the HSE? Who are the IPA's employers in its various countrywide operations? Mr. Cullen mentioned that profit margins are limited to 5%. Are the operators operating on a commission basis with some companies? Is that the way forward for the industry? In some cases, people say to me that some operators can be aggressive. Where there are two or three operators in an area, there is aggression and people get very little time before the clamps go on.

Mr. Keith Gavin

Regarding the current system of self-regulation, we put it in place because there was no legislation in the area of enforcement of private property. The appeals process is independent and uses the same ombudsman as the second stage appeal for on-street enforcement appeals.

Our employees are the employees of the parking operators, parking organisations and equipment suppliers. It is difficult to identify an individual within local authorities where the task has not been set out as the responsibility of one individual. It comes under the responsibility of the roads engineer in some councils and may be a shared function in other councils so we underestimate the number of local authority members directly involved in parking. The number of employees as stated at present concerns the private operators and equipment suppliers throughout the country.

Mr. Dave Cullen

I will respond to two of the questions raised. We are all slightly different but we are all commercial operators. Our staff are not incentivised, so they do not get a bonus as the number of clamps increases. How we are engaged as a clamping and parking enforcement company is also varied. On some sites, we keep the clamping income and that is our only income. With Dunnes Stores, all of the clamping fees go to charity and with Irish Rail it is split 50-50. It varies from client to client and there no single regime that everyone operates. We have a multitude of clients and the arrangements are very different.

Deputy Tony McLoughlin

Where the operator is not clamping, is it still responsible for the car parks of Dunnes Stores? Are car parking attendants on duty? One of the witnesses said that clamping represents only a small part of the business. What other operations do they carry out?

Mr. Dave Cullen

That is a good question and may illustrate the size of the industry. We have approximately 200 staff and between Dunnes Stores and Tesco we have 60 staff based permanently on their sites. We have 20 staff at Irish Rail and, between the various hospitals of the HSE, we have over 30. We also have a number of multi-storey car parks and cash car parks. We have nine guys clamping, which represents 5% and is a relatively small portion. Unfortunately, it is not profitable for us and we do it out of necessity because our clients need some such mechanism.

Deputy Tony McLoughlin

Does the same apply to the other organisations?

Mr. Tom Harrington

In my organisation, clamping accounts for 15% of the business. We also manage paid car parks and supply and maintain pay and display machines.

Deputy Tony McLoughlin

Is that countrywide?

Mr. Tom Harrington

Yes, we operate in all 32 counties.

Deputy Noel Coonan

My apologies for being late. I welcome the witnesses and thank them for taking questions. I am immediately suspicious when I hear people say they are not making any money on something and that it is not profitable. Why are these organisations doing it? It does not make sense to me. There must be something in it and the witnesses might elaborate on this.

I refer to some of the questions raised by Deputy McLoughlin, on which the witnesses kicked to touch. The witnesses should address the issue of aggression, particularly in respect of clampers. Are they vetted? Many of the people working for banks and financial institutions are not nice people and have records. They terrorise people, although I do not suggest that of the employees of the parking enforcement agencies. There are isolated cases we could mention where this has happened. What instructions do they give to their employees when they go clamping? We spoke about a period of grace but I am concerned about whether they have discretion. If some poor unfortunate lady returns to her car and is under pressure and the clampers are about to commence, does the clamper have discretion to accept the fine rather than go through the whole procedure?

The witnesses referred to Irish Rail, where they operate. Last winter, ticketing machines in my local station were frozen. People got the train and when they got back, their cars were clamped. The machines were not working. What consolation can the operators offer these people and what common sense reason can they give for the hardship they put people through? This was not the fault of these people; it was a failure of the system. I refer to the cost of appeals, on top of what people pay when they are clamped. It is difficult for people to afford it because there is pain in this country at the moment. Some 50% of appeals are successful. What number of people appeal and what number do not bother because they are not aware of it, are scared to appeal or cannot afford it? I would like the witnesses to address the people employed by their organisations, particularly in respect of the aggression to which Deputy McLoughlin referred.

Mr. Dave Cullen

Our staff are not vetted because we cannot get Garda vetting for staff in a private company. My company's policy is that the clampers are allowed to unclamp. Our busiest clamping location is the disabled bays in the Liffey Valley Shopping Centre. If someone comes back and has no legs, our clamper will unclamp the car on the spot. We do not have to go through the whole rigamarole and refund the person.

I must contradict Deputy Coonan in respect of Irish Rail. Mr. Harrington and I share the Irish Rail contract and when the snow fell, clamping was banned by Irish Rail. The Irish Rail story is incorrect.

Mr. Tom Harrington

We redeployed our patrol officers to clear pathways through the snow for people to get to the station. There was no clamping during the big snowfall last year.

Deputy Noel Coonan

It was while there was frost that the machines were not working. I did not say snow, I said frost.

Mr. Tom Harrington

So this was not during the big snowfall last year. Was it just during wintertime and the machines were down?

Deputy Noel Coonan

I did not mention snow, I said frost.

Mr. Tom Harrington

I apologise. If the machines were not working, we would not implement clamping on that site because we check the machines every time we go on site. I will happily look into any individual case with Deputy Coonan if he has the details. Customer service is a major concern for Irish Rail and clamping is a last resort on any of its sites.

One must consider why we are present. My organisation manages 800 sites across the country. We do not just rock up and put signs up that we are clamping. People have an issue, for whatever reason, such as the car park being abused. They need to reserve spaces for themselves or their customers and that is why we are there. We are invited to these sites to solve a problem.

Regarding staff, regulation by the Private Security Authority, PSA, would be a good thing. The second appeals process is independent and is the same service used by Dublin City Council. I stand over that.

Deputy Noel Coonan

I asked a question about discretion.

Mr. Tom Harrington

A manager is on duty 24-7 and if our operative feels the clamp should come off he or she can call that person, who can authorise the operative to take off the clamp.

Deputy Noel Coonan

It seems to depend on the individual.

Mr. Keith Gavin

They are instructed that if there is any doubt to call the supervisor. It is standard procedure explained during training.

Mr. Neil Cunningham

It is a very confrontational situation when a car is clamped and somebody is there to declamp it. It is the case on the street in a public area and even more so in a private site which is more isolated. It is a big problem for our staff. We are aware of numerous instances where our staff have been attacked and assaulted. We and other companies train all our staff in conflict management to deal with those situations and how to react to them, how to identify confrontation and try to dissuade it and move away from it. Conflict is an issue. A lot of it comes from the person whose car has been clamped.

In terms of customer service and how we deal with the public, one has to take a step back and ask why we are there. We are representing the owners of properties and helping them to manage assets on their behalf. We have to deliver very good customer service in as professional a manner as we can within the service we are delivering, which is confrontational when we are in discussion with somebody whose car has just been clamped and the release fee is between €100 to €120.

Deputy Noel Coonan

Have any staff been dismissed for aggressive behaviour or losing their cool?

Mr. Neil Cunningham

As a company we have been lucky in that we have not had a situation where somebody has gotten into an assault situation. Staff have been assaulted, some of which occurred over the past 18 months and have been very serious. No staff member has been dismissed based on one incident. Members of staff have been dismissed, as is normal with employment, following a full disciplinary process. I can safely say we have not had a situation where a staff member has physically assaulted a customer. It would be a very grave situation for us as a company.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

Do the members of staff receive any special training on what to look out for or how a vehicle should be parked? People will park on paths. Is photographic evidence used to make a case when someone is contesting a fine? I believe we are all in favour of having some photographic evidence to back up whatever is said. Based on what the witnesses have said, I get the impression that a lot of staff are not qualified in the true sense of the word. The backup of other evidence would be very important.

Chairman

I will make a final comment and the witnesses can make their concluding statements. How is the voluntary code of conduct currently in place enforced? Has anybody ever been found in breach of it? If so, has anybody ever been suspended or challenged with regard to his or her behaviour? I refer to present and past members of the IPA.

Mr. Dave Cullen

With regard to staff training, all sites are different. Our operations manager has to visit them and we bring anybody who is on duty to Blanchardstown Hospital, for example, and show them the areas he or she will be patrolling. The problems are not just about whether people pay, they include whether they are blocking accident and emergency or other entrances. We have to do site specific training, as well as conflict resolution training, which we do with all of our staff.

I am speaking for other witnesses, but we all use very high-tech equipment. Hand held computers that issue fines also take pictures which are stored. It is interesting that when people call us to tell us that they were not parked somewhere we can tell them we have everything on camera and they change their tune very quickly.

The classic case that made "Liveline" was a man from Churchtown who is no longer a member of the IPA, which probably answers the question.

Mr. Keith Gavin

He never was. It is a good question. We introduced a code of conduct to respond specifically to that type of activity. As I said, thus far we do not have a huge amount of road activity. No member has been expelled from the association because all of the existing members adhere to the code.

Chairman

Who monitors that?

Mr. Keith Gavin

It is a small industry and community. If we got repeated complaints about particular operators we would look into them and take action. That is not the case. As I said, our objective is to improve standards and professional practice within parking. We want to prevent rogue members joining the association. If they did not adhere to the code of practice they would not be accepted.

Chairman

I thank the witnesses for their assistance. It has been a very informative discussion which will help us to form our recommendations. They can follow the remainder of the proceedings online or by looking for copies of the presentations made to us. If there are other presentations with regard to legislation we will facilitate a submission as we conclude the process.

Sitting suspended at 3.37 p.m. and resumed at 3.38 p.m.

Chairman

I welcome Mr. Liam Keilthy, an independent appeals officer for Dublin City Council, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council and a number of private clamping companies and thank him for attending.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, you are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence you are to give this committee. However, if you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in respect of a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise nor make charges against any person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I call on Mr. Keilthy to make his opening statement.

Mr. Liam Keilthy

I am pleased to have been invited to appear before the committee and thank the Chairman and committee for the opportunity. I have submitted a short document with my basic points and information. I will run through a few of the things it might be useful to bear in mind as the committee deliberates on legislation on clamping. The total number of cars registered in Ireland has increased by more than 40% since the introduction of clamping by Dublin City Council in October 1998 and the total number of cars registered in County Dublin has increased by 12%, yet the total number of vehicles clamped across the years for which I have data, 2002 until the present, has basically remained static at 55,000 per year. I would have expected it to have increased in proportion to the number of cars but it has not.

I draw attention to the fact that the number of pay and display tickets and paid parking events on street in Dublin amount to 16 million in any given year. The total number of cars clamped in any given year is about 55,000 so the relationship between the number of parking events and the number of cars detected offending is tiny. Thinking about that in daily terms, there are 44,000 cars paying for parking on Dublin's streets every day, and 150 cars are clamped.

Since 2004, I have been providing an independent parking appeals service for Dublin City Council. In 2007 I was invited to provide a similar service for Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council and have been doing so ever since. In 2009, I was invited by the parking industry to provide a second stage appeal service for people who were clamped on private property. In the seven or eight years since I have been providing this service, I have dealt with more than 5,000 individual appeals. That gives a sense of scale to this.

There is a parking appeals system in place in Dublin City Council, in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown and in the private sector if a person is clamped. The Chairman asked if people are notified of their right to appeal. The normal process is that when a person gets a ticket or fine, on the back of it, the right to appeal is outlined. That is stage one. If a person is clamped on private property, he must appeal to the clamping company. If it is on Dublin City Council property, he will appeal to its clamping contractor, Dublin Street Parking Services. If he or she is fined in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, he or she must appeal to ABCOA, which operates the warden service there. In all three, there are internal appeals processes, with access to photographs of the signs and records of the wardens. A person writes to say he or she is unhappy he or she was clamped or fined and the company says if it stands or not. If the appeal is granted, the release fee is refunded or the fine is cancelled.

Chairman

Is there a charge for that process?

Mr. Liam Keilthy

No. In Dublin City Council and Dún Laoghaire there is no charge, although on the private sector side there is a charge. Just staying with the first stage, however, there are no charges yet. There is no charge for the appeal, a person writes in and sets out the case, and the council or company responds. In all three cases where they turn down an appeal, they include in the letter of rejection the fact the option exists to appeal to the independent parking appeals officer. In Dublin City Council there is no charge for that.

Now, instead of writing to the clamping company, the person writes to the parking appeals service in Dublin City Council, and in Dún Laoghaire he does the same thing. If it is a private clamping firm, it will tell the person to write to the independent parking appeals service - me - and in my case, to cover my costs, there is a fee of €20. The only fee that arises is for second stage appeals for private property. In the event the person's appeal is successful on the private property side, the person gets back the €20.

A person who has been clamped by Dublin City Council has already paid €80 and I have three options available to me. I can decline the appeal, I can accept the appeal and grant a full refund of the €80 or if I think there are mitigating circumstances, I can make a partial refund of the clamping fee, where, instead of getting back €80, the person might get back €40. Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown issues fines, so the person has not yet paid. In those circumstances, I can cancel the fine or let it stand. For the private sector appeals, I can do the same three things I do with Dublin City Council. The person has paid the fee so I can refund it, I can decline the appeal or I can grant a partial refund. I am operating as the quality control and complaints management service for those three different organisations.

Deputy Brian Walsh

We discussed this matter last week, when members of the County and City Managers Association and representatives from Dublin City Council and Cork City Council appeared before us. Cork City Council produced data that showed more than 53% of the clamps applied were applied in instances where a person had not paid a fee for parking. Is it the case that figure is much smaller in Dublin?

Chairman

The figure is that 53% of parking fines in Cork are issued due to the failure to display a disc or the display of an expired disc.

Deputy Brian Walsh

The suggestion is that is not the case in Dublin; the majority of clamps were applied for other reasons according to the opening statement.

Mr. Liam Keilthy

I did not mention the reasons for clamping.

Deputy Brian Walsh

I must have picked that up wrongly. A trend is emerging, with Limerick, Galway, Waterford and Cork all recently suspending clamping as a form for dealing with parking offences. Is there any explanation for that? Dublin local authorities are now the only local authorities that still have a clamping regime in place.

Mr. Liam Keilthy

There has never been clamping in Limerick. There was clamping in carparks in Galway and there was a particular incident that gained publicity where a person was clamped outside a doctor's surgery. There was great unease over the way in which the service was being delivered in Galway. This is not the case in Cork, where it involves a purely economic decision.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

It is not what we were told. The contract was up.

Mr. Liam Keilthy

There may be another logic but the public logic is that it was costing €1 million per year. Approximately €700,000 in clamp release and towing fees, etc., was being received. From what I have seen in Cork, where I have in-laws and where I visit regularly, the reality on the ground is that there is very little support for the parking controls from the local business community. In Dublin, however, there is considerable support. I presume all Members can remember the 1990s before there was clamping. One sometimes drove around Merrion Square or St. Stephen's Green 20 times looking for a parking space, yet one could not find one. Since the introduction of the new arrangements, there has been an extraordinary improvement in accessibility in the city. The Dublin City Business Association and Dublin Chamber of Commerce are completely behind what is occurring in the city.

On the question of whether there is a trend, I do not believe so. There are only three cases: the Galway one, which never really worked properly; the Cork one, which is being abandoned because there was no support; and the Dublin one, which has been an extraordinary success. The success in Dublin is not really appreciated.

Deputy Brian Walsh

The sentiment at last week's meeting was that this legislation was being introduced not necessarily to consider the local authorities that operate clamping regimes but to consider the private clampers. Mr. Keilthy has experience of dealing with both. Does he concur with the sentiment? Has he seen a heavier hand being applied in respect of the private operators?

Mr. Liam Keilthy

The question as to whether the committee recommends that the legislation should apply to both private and public operators, as the Minister has suggested, is really a matter for the committee and Minister. The local authorities currently have all the powers they need to introduce and implement clamping, if they so wish. In effect, that is covered. What is not covered and what requires urgent clarification and, at the very minimum, an operating framework, is parking enforcement on private property.

I was glad to be present for the previous session because I had not thought about the matter from the other point of view. There is a strong argument for having the two options, that is, the right to clamp and the softer option of issuing a ticket. The point on the hospitals is a classic point. A hospital requires that its patients have access to parking when they go there. If there is no parking management system in place, staff, delivery people and others will park in all the parking spaces. There is a fundamental requirement for a parking management system. At present, the only option for a hospital, through its contractors, is clamping. There is a strong argument in favour of providing the alternative, namely, some sort of ticketing option. That would take the heat out of the cases that inevitably end up on Members' doors.

With regard to stage 1 or entry-level appeals in Dublin, not having a permit or ticket displayed represents 64% of all appeals. It is in regard to the offence that people are appealing.

Deputy Brian Walsh

What percentage of decisions actually proceed to appeal? Mr. Keilthy stated 55,000 clamps were applied. What are the percentages pertaining to these?

Mr. Liam Keilthy

Of the 55,000 cars clamped, approximately 2,500 owners end up appealing. This amounts to approximately 4% or 5%. Of the 2,500, approximately 2,000 are declined. Of the 2,000 who are declined, approximately 500 come to me.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

I have a couple of points. Mr. Keilthy stated he covered just over 5,500 cases in recent years. How many did he uphold, bearing in mind the arguments made on going through the procedure? I raised the issue of clamping in hospitals. I have always found it very unfair and believe there should be an alternative. I took on board the point on ticketing. If one rushes to hospital in an emergency, it is not acceptable to emerge later and find one's car clamped.

I have encountered whole streets with no parking machine working. Is the motorist obliged to go around the corner to purchase his ticket? He or she may be in a hurry or doing something. I am not sure of the procedure. I found it fairly difficult to understand the rules on displaying tickets. If someone puts a ticket on his or her windscreen and it blows away or gets partially covered, is there a general rule that this does not constitute an acceptable defence if an argument arises? What is Mr. Keilthy's opinion on this?

Mr. Liam Keilthy

There are three issues. With regard to the number of cases upheld, the ratio for private property is approximately 50:50. In anticipation of the question, I examined a lever arch file of appeals today. There were 45 cases in it, of which 23 were declined and 22 upheld. Members should read my report, which I am not promoting because I wrote it. It is extraordinary for a public body to go public with the information referred to. The report is extremely useful and well worth a read. In 2010, of 534 appeals that came to me, 76% were declined and 24% were accepted. However, of the 76% declined, two thirds received either a partial or full refund, for various reasons. If one asks how many actually got their money back, which is a slightly different question, one will note more than half did. In Dún Laoghaire, the ratio is approximately 50:50.

There are two aspects to the question on broken machines. On every single machine in the Dublin City Council area, there is a notice stating that, in the event of the machine being out of service, one should call a given number. One phones the number and states one is in York Street, for example, and that the machine is broken. One is then asked the number of the machine and how long one wants to park for. If one states two hours, the clampers will be told one should not be clamped for two hours. That is the easy way around the problem.

Dublin City Council has done something very imaginative that offers very interesting scope. It has introduced an initiative called Parking Tag, a mobile telephone-based system whereby one does not have to go anywhere near a pay-and-display machine when one parks. One dials a number and states one wants to park for, say, two hours, after which one's mobile telephone or credit card is charged for that period. The transaction then enters the system. One does not require paper evidence in one's car. It is a really imaginative solution. There is an issue with tickets that are displayed upside down. For pay and display to work the details of the pay and display ticket must be available to inspect. The ticket, the date and the expiry time must be visible. If it is upside down, for whatever reason, one will be clamped. The reason for having an appeals service is that Mrs. Keilthy can write in, stating that the ticket was upside down, and enclose a copy of the ticket to show she paid, and ask us to reconsider her case. In the case of Dublin City Council, the vast majority of those who appeal get a refund of 50% of the clamping fee. One of the things I like about Dublin City Council's approach is that it encourages people to buy into the system, it has a softer edge to it. I am very supportive of what the city council has done and I like its approach. I am lucky to have been involved in the system from the very beginning and in helping it to evolve.

Senator Ned O’Sullivan

Deputy Ellis asked the questions that I was going to put to Mr. Keilthy. I thank him for his very interesting contribution.

This is a story I heard lately, but I do not know if it true or not, but a person finds his car is clamped and the clampers are on the road and he offers them cash on the spot in order to get his car released and apparently they do not take cash. Is that a valid argument for an appeal?

Mr. Liam Keilthy

There are two twists to this story. Let us think about it and look at it from the point of view of the parking enforcement contractor. By allowing cash payment, the temptation would be for the operator to put the cash in his pocket and release the car. There are ways around it, if the operator clamps the car, and uses the hand held devices, it is on the system. Most of them accept cash, but reluctantly because it then means they are in the van or walking around with cash and they would absolutely prefer not to have it. From an appeals point of view, I do not have a view one way or the other. There was a case where a man had to get a lift from the station into town to an ATM and then return with the money. I was quite sympathetic to the person in that case. In general the basis of payment should not be an issue. Certainly in the appeals I deal with, it is not an issue.

Chairman

Mr. Keilthy indicated that Dublin City Council has a positive approach to the appeals process, but from the perspective of the local authority the reason is that the local authority wants to attract shoppers into the high street and we know from earlier presentations that commuters who travel in their own means of transport as opposed to public transport will spend five times as much money as regular shoppers. There is an incentive. There are different business cultures in different environments. When it comes to the appeals process, is that culture also reflected? Is it more difficult to get an appeal upheld if the vehicle is clamped on a private location than on a public roadway? Is there a discrepancy in the success rate of appeals for similar offences in different sectors, or are all treated in the same way?

Mr. Liam Keilthy

There are differences. There are differences in approach between Dublin City Council and Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council and between the private and public operators. It is about strictness of interpretation. If an appeal stands up on its own merits, there is no argument. They will be refunded, and there is no argument. If an appeal fails, on very obvious grounds, then that is a black and white case. It is the middle ground which is interesting.

I described for Deputy Ellis the approach taken when a ticket is upside down. Dublin City Council takes the view that the person has made an effort to comply by purchasing a ticket and they have given proof of the ticket, so therefore a gesture of goodwill is appropriate. It is, however, a gesture of goodwill. It was a valid clamp. There is that soft edge in Dublin City Council's approach, which I think is very favourable and conducive to the public buying into the system. I would actively encourage and support that in any initiatives or programmes that the committee wants to take forward. Dublin City Council, is a model, in my view, of how a good parking enforcement service can work. It is firm but fair, it is flexible and allows me, but only me, discretion.

Let us take one of the classic examples of the hospital parking offences. There are two sides to that argument and one must be careful about it. A man was taking his pregnant wife, who was in labour to Holles Street hospital. When he got to Holles Street, he parked his car in a parking space and rushed into the hospital. Everything went well but he ended up spending 36 hours in the hospital without coming out except to get a cup of coffee. He arrives out after having spent 36 hours in the hospital and you can guess what awaited him - his car was clamped. He then goes ballistic and is not at all reasonable, because he felt he had no choice. When he was speaking to the chief executive of the clamping company it was put to him that if the clamping company had not been clamping on that street, there would have been no parking spaces for him when he arrived. The man got his money back.

What I normally do in cases like that, to avoid people writing in with sad stories, is to ask them to get a letter from the hospital to confirm the baby was born. It can be a note from a nurse, it does not have to be a fancy letter, but it must be written on the hospital's letterhead, and state that Mrs. Keilthy was here on Tuesday and the baby was delivered. They get their money back. One must strike a balance. Hospitals face significant problems with parking. One must have an active parking management regime or the spaces will be abused. I get appeals regularly from Waterford Regional Hospital, when people abuse the disabled parking spaces at the front door. Some of the people who had no choice were surgeons or doctors, where it would take two seconds for them to park somewhere else, but they park in the disabled parking space. I have no sympathy for that at all. If one parks in a disabled parking space and one does not have a blue badge, I will not be sympathetic to that case. On the other hand, one must take account of the man who is rushing his wife to hospital. One of the things in which I take great pleasure is being able to deal with these cases in a reasonable and sensible fashion. One cannot give that discretion to the operator on the ground because then he gets abused and the system is abused.

Chairman

We will move on with questions and I appreciate the detailed response. Does Mr. Keilthy see a requirement to separate regulation and the appeals process? His report entitled Dublin City Council, Report of the Parking Appeals Officer 2010, contains a series of recommendations and perhaps he would expand on them. Coincidentally, I just read the section where he mentioned that roads in Italian cities have blue and white lines painted on them. Yesterday evening somebody suggested that one could colour the lines in the middle of the road either red, white or blue indicating the correct speed. As Dublin, in particular, has 20 mph zones this would be an innovative suggestion. Perhaps Mr. Keilthy would expand on some of his recommendations. They may provide the legislative framework that we seek and thus help us complete our work.

Mr. Liam Keilthy

I am happy to do that. My recommendations tend to be quite specific to Dublin. There is definitely an issue of clearways and bus lanes where a lot of people get caught parking. They are normal parking areas until 4 p.m. but then become a clearway or bus lane. The statutory instruments that define the notice requirements make it clear, for example, that at a bus lane or clearway there must be notice at the beginning and at the end. It does not matter if it is a mile long in between there must be one sign at the beginning and one at the end. To be fair, Dublin City Council has taken the initiative and along the way it has put up non-required information signs. The matter needs attention and it is a matter for the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport to get the signage right.

With regard to blue lines, I saw them in Italy and thought they were a great idea. One could quickly determine what was residential parking and there could be a case for using such a measure here. It is not necessarily within the scope of clamping legislation but it might extend to other issues that the committee might consider in terms of road signage, etc.

Chairman

What about my point on the appeals process and regulation?

Mr. Liam Keilthy

Let me have a think about that. There is great merit in being able to stand up, as I am here, and say that I am completely independent. I was at a strategic policy committee meeting for Dublin City Council and one of its newly-elected councillors asked me if I had ever worked for or been in receipt of payment from the council to which I replied "No." I was then asked how I got my job but I am asked that sort of question. I am completely independent. To be fair to the council it accepts my decision when I grant a refund or not. The same applies to Dún-Laoghaire and clamping companies where my decisions are accepted by them and that has merit. I can see merit in having an appeals officer involved in regulation and I do not see any conflict in that. I read the notes where the Waterford county manager said he did not see his council being involved in regulation but his view is valid. I like the Minister's argument about the National Transport Authority being the regulatory body. I do not see why the appeals process could not sit side by side with it. The appeals that come through my door can provide the committee with the information it needs to control and regulate. I was asked a good question on who does the monitoring. Effectively, I do. If I see that Liam Keilthy is not doing his job or something is being repeated then I am the one sending the rocket to the parking company to say something is not right and asking them to get their finger out and sort it. Effectively, I am doing it.

Deputy Terence Flanagan

I apologise for being late and for the following points if they have been covered. What is the average period of grace before a clamp is put on a car? When a driver arrives back late to their vehicle but accepts their mistake they still must go through the process. They are frustrated at seeing a clamp put on and by having to return later to release their vehicle. What can be done differently? I know cashflow must be protected and is needed.

With regard to penalties, when the clamp is put on a person could disappear for a week. What is the average length of time a car is clamped for before being removed from its location?

Mr. Liam Keilthy

There are two issues with periods of grace and the first is before a clamp is put on. Is it an instant clamp if someone sees a car in breach of the rules? The second period of grace would be after parking time has elapsed. For example, if a pay and display ticket on view has expired by five or ten minutes then some time should be allowed. If a car has no ticket displayed time must be allowed for a person to get to a machine and come back to the vehicle. In that instance ten minutes is probably reasonable.

Deputy Terence Flanagan

Does a ten or 20 minute grace apply when someone has paid for their ticket but it has expired?

Mr. Liam Keilthy

It starts being abused then. I will give the Deputy an example. Bray County Council introduced a scratch card system where one could buy a ticket in a local shop but gradually fewer retailers sold the parking discs. As a consequence, the council had to extend the period of grace to an hour because someone parked on Queen's Street might have to walk a mile up the road to buy a disc. It might as well not have had any parking enforcement. One must be careful about this.

Let us say I find a private car parked in a loading bay, and providing the road is properly signed, there should be no tolerance shown. Let the person appeal but there should be no tolerance for that infringement. Similarly, I would not tolerate anyone parking their car in a disabled parking space without the appropriate parking permit. Such people should not receive a period of grace. If the vehicle is parked in a normal pay and display space without a ticket - and a warden should be able to see whether someone is at a pay and display machine just by looking up and down the road - or if the ticket has expired by a few minutes then there should be some grace period.

With regard to clamps and release times, if a clamp is not locked and a person returns to their car, where the clamper is attaching the clamp to the wheel but has the lock in his hand, up until the lock clicks shut the approach adopted should be to take it off and go away. There should be no question about that. If it is locked then a person must go through the process. It is frustrating when a guy is sitting there. People can, and I do not think this is an unreasonable request, ask the clamper if he would contact his office, present their credit card and agree to pay for the fine. This business where a clamper gets in the car and heads off is wrong. Dublin City Council has a maximum time allowed for the release of a clamp. It is from the time of payment of the release fee - and one must be careful about this - a vehicle must be released within two hours. That is the maximum possible time allowed.

Chairman

Is there a refund if it is not released for two hours?

Mr. Liam Keilthy

Yes, if it goes over two hours a person is entitled to a full refund. In fact, a person is entitled to have their vehicle released without payment. That will not happen though because payment will already have been made but people will get their money back. The DSPS, which runs the service for Dublin City Council, more or less consistently achieves its target of releasing 95% of all clamps within an hour of the fee being paid. I think that is probably reasonable. What was the other question the Deputy asked?

Deputy Terence Flanagan

I asked if clamps have to be removed from one's car within a certain timeframe if it is in a normal car parking space.

Mr. Liam Keilthy

That is a local issue. There have been a couple of interesting cases. A person whose car was clamped after being parked in a disabled parking space in Smithfield asked the clamper how long he was entitled to keep his car in the space for before he had to move it. I think that is the question the Deputy is asking.

Deputy Terence Flanagan

One could save money by not moving it.

Mr. Liam Keilthy

When he was told he could leave his car there for 24 hours, he told the clamper to go away and to come back the following day. In my view, the clamper should have called a tow truck to haul the car out of the disabled parking place. In the normal course of events, if one's car has been clamped and one has not made contact with a view to paying the removal fee, it will be towed away after 24 hours. I think that is reasonable.

Chairman

Does Mr. Keilthy's office deal with appeals in cases of cars being towed away?

Mr. Liam Keilthy

Yes. We deal with anything to do with this issue.

Deputy Terence Flanagan

I would like to get some clarification about the locking of the clamp. I know of a case in which the clamping company went through the whole process even though the driver was willing to pay. He was told it was too late and the clamp had to be put on. Has that changed or has it always been the case?

Mr. Liam Keilthy

It depends. In which local authority area did this happen?

Deputy Terence Flanagan

It happened in the Dublin City Council area.

Mr. Liam Keilthy

The communications system that is used in the Dublin City Council area means that should not happen. In such a circumstance, if one picks up the telephone to call the council, it will be sorted straight away. Cases like that mentioned by the Deputy absolutely should not happen. It gets difficult when a single van is covering train stations along 30 or 40 miles of railway line, such as in Wexford, New Ross, Enniscorthy and Gorey. If a clamper has clamped a car in Wexford and moved on to Gorey, it will take him some time to get back to Wexford to assist the driver. That is one of the disadvantages of this system.

Deputy Terence Flanagan

My point was that a clamper sometimes puts on a clamp and then heads off. He might wait until the payment is made over the telephone before coming back at that stage.

Mr. Liam Keilthy

It is up to the person whose car has been clamped to pay the release fee. If one pays the release fee quickly, the clamper should come back quickly.

Deputy Terence Flanagan

I am talking about the physical process that happens when someone is suddenly there. If the driver appears before the clamp has been put on-----

Mr. Liam Keilthy

If the clamp has not been fitted, the whole thing is aborted. If the clamp has been locked and the guy is in his van to go somewhere else, the motorist has to contact the call centre and make the payment. That is what happens in Dublin.

Deputy Terence Flanagan

Of course.

Mr. Liam Keilthy

As soon as the payment is processed, the call centre allocates the release of the clamp to the next available van in the area.

Deputy Terence Flanagan

That is fine.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Keilthy for assisting us in our deliberations. This is an interesting subject, particularly for those who have to pay €120. It is a question of instant disappointment rather than instant gratification. It has been very informative to have Mr. Keilthy before us to assist the committee in its deliberations on this matter. On behalf of the committee, I thank him for his expertise and his availability. He has helped us to formulate our recommendations, which we will send to the Minister in due course as we conclude this process.

Mr. Liam Keilthy

I would like to inform the committee that the €80 fee and the €40 fine have not been increased for 12 or 14 years. I agree with the member who made the point that the purpose of the fine is to act as a deterrent. If the fine is decreased, it will lose its effect. During the era of the £14 fine, which became €19, people were happy to go around with 20, 30 or 40 of them. There is a strong case for providing that the fine can be adjusted - or for setting a range of fines, as recommended here last week - so that it acts as a deterrent. The parking appeals system should be used to deal with those cases that require some sympathy. We need to make sure it is a deterrent. If it is not a deterrent, its whole purpose is defeated.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Keilthy.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.25 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 8 February 2012.