JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENT debate -
Thursday, 30 Oct 2008

North-South Co-operation, Reconciliation and Peace Building: Discussion with Co-operation Ireland.

Chairman

I welcome our guests from Northern Ireland, two good friends, Mr. Tony Kennedy, chief executive, and Mr. Peter Sheridan, designate chief executive, Co-operation Ireland, two very distinguished individuals in Northern Ireland and affairs on this island. I have known Mr. Kennedy for many years. In the past year I have got to know Mr. Sheridan who has played a major role in policing in Northern Ireland. They are accompanied by their colleagues in the Visitors Gallery, Ms Marianne McGill, Mr. Brian O'Caoindealbhain, Dr. Catherine O'Donnell and Ms Agnes Breton.

Co-operation Ireland is a charity dedicated to promoting better relations between the peoples of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Its aim is to provide opportunities for groups from both sides of the Border to meet in order that they can learn about our diverse cultural backgrounds and help to create a society based on tolerance and acceptance of cultural difference. As a non-political organisation, Co-operation Ireland is able to work with groups and organisations from a cross-section of society. Its mission is to advance mutual understanding and respect by promoting practical co-operation between the peoples of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. To achieve this aim it works with youth and community groups, schools, local authorities, the media, economic development agencies, businesses and training organisations, statutory organisations and governments. It delivers several funding programmes and administers cross-Border elements of the European Union's PEACE and INTERREG III programmes.

During the years Co-operation Ireland has developed a varied range of projects which allow groups to come together. Jointly, these groups work on a selected project through which they get to know one another, become comfortable in each other's company and respect one another. Through this model, groups have an opportunity to discuss the often swept under the carpet topics of culture, identity and religion.

Before we commence, I advise the delegates that whereas Members of the Houses enjoy absolute privilege in respect of utterances made in committee, witnesses do not enjoy absolute privilege. Accordingly, caution should be exercised, particularly with regard to references of a personal nature.

Mr. Tony Kennedy

I thank committee members for inviting us to this meeting in the middle of a hectic political week.

At the end of the year I will be retiring after 16 years as chief executive of Co-operation Ireland. I hope I will not lose all touch with this part of the island that I know and love. I thank the Chairman for his introduction and brief description of our work. He was much more succinct that I could be.

Co-operation Ireland is involved in a lot of programme delivery work in bringing groups and organisations together to see what they have in common, build trust and explore their differences. However, we see our role as broader than this. If the North-South work is just about a range of individual programmes, co-ordination can be lost. Co-operation Ireland sees itself as an organisation which should co-ordinate the work various parts of the sector do. It acts as an umbrella organisation but has the ambition to try to influence governmental policy in making North-South work more effective.

Co-operation Ireland believes the continuous causes of conflict in Northern Ireland are exacerbated by intransigent misunderstanding and erroneous perceptions on both parts of the island. It believes the political settlement is essential but not sufficient. It is very clear there is a political job to be done. That is the job for the committee and other politicians on the island; it is not ours. However, there are things that can be done better and more effectively by non-political organisations. Where there are common goals, it would make sense for government agencies, political agencies and non-governmental organisations to work out how they could work together and be more effective.

Some 20 years ago Co-operation Ireland was effectively the only body involved in North-South work. Now this work has become much more acceptable. While it was not just us who achieved it, it is our most important achievement. In the past 12 years we have put much work into engaging people from Protestant, Unionist and loyalist backgrounds in North-South co-operation. We aim to give them the confidence to become involved without sacrificing any of their beliefs.

We have also known when to let go. In 1998 we had a very active economic co-operation programme but when InterTradeIreland was established, we reckoned the Government would do it better than us and we moved on.

We help others by acting as a catalyst. We work with local authorities, in association with a committee drawn from county managers and the chief executives of the Northern Ireland local authorities. We assist them as a secretariat.

Co-operation Ireland has been an innovative organisation. The Chairman referred to the EU PEACE programme under which it administered grants. After one year there was a low uptake of the grants in urban loyalist areas. We set up a small grants programme and got our agent to make offers but did not let him touch the money. Our agent, a friend of mine, Mr. Andy Tyrie, got through to areas I would never have got through to and got people involved in cross-Border work. Our schools citizenship programme, Civic Link, adopts a US model which it applies to the Irish condition in which we encourage young people to become active citizens and understand and trust each other.

Together with the Centre for Cross-Border Studies and the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy in Northern Ireland, CIPFA, we recently launched a North-South public sector training course. It was clear to us that with the growing interaction of the Civil Service in North-South bodies, most did not understand each other's jurisdictions. The course allows civil servants to meet and build networks.

We have a project between Catholics and Protestants in east Belfast and Finglas in north Dublin, the aim of which is to get 80% of the population in these areas engaged in cross-Border and cross-community work in the next five years. It also aims to see if attitudes can be shifted if we work with whole communities rather than individuals.

Another of our achievements has been keeping North-South co-operation on the agenda at community level, as it can slide off very easily. In a tough funding environment Co-operation Ireland is proud that it is not entirely Government-funded. Half of its funding comes through the private sector and its own activities. Committee members who saw me several months ago might notice I have lost half a stone in weight. Two weeks ago I was cycling in the Himalayas to raise money for Co-operation Ireland. One has to put one's money — or one's behind — where one's mouth is in this job.

The biggest challenge remains the absence of a clear strategy between the administrations and what people want to achieve in North-South co-operation. The Government here is not clear about that, nor is the administration in Northern Ireland. I appreciate that there are political difficulties, but it is very hard to work without a clear strategy. I cannot count the number of times I am told that we do great work, but I am offered every assistance short of actual help. There is much lip service paid to this, and it needs to be treated more seriously by both Administrations.

Another challenge is the absence of structured links between civic society and Government institutions. In most activities, clear, formal mechanisms are normally set up to link in and get feedback, and I appreciate the opportunity given to us today. The final challenge is that of funding. Ireland must be unique in the world in that it expects its community peace-building activities to be funded by external agencies. In the past ten years, more money has been put into community peace building by the US Government — through the International Fund for Ireland — and by the European Union — through the European Programme for Peace and Reconciliation — than has been invested by the British and Irish Governments put together. The rest of the world is getting fed up with funding us, so the funding will stop. There are already groups such as North South Rural Voice which have ceased to exist because funding dried up.

The funding remains a challenge, but it is also about the way in which funding occurs. Governments have got increasingly involved in tying funding to particular activities. I can understand that, due to the requirements on them to explain public expenditure, but an opportunity to be flexible and to innovate is lost.

The most difficult decision I have made in the past ten years has been to retire. It is a job I have enjoyed, but there is much potential in it and I am delighted to leave Mr. Sheridan with some work to do. I thought I had better get out before they shoved me out, but there is still much exciting work to be done.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Kennedy. It is now my great pleasure to introduce Mr. Peter Sheridan, the former distinguished deputy police chief in Northern Ireland.

Mr. Peter Sheridan

Thank you Chairman and members of the committee for your warm welcome. I am delighted to have joined Co-operation Ireland and it says something about the progressive nature of the organisation that it has taken on as CEO a former police officer of 32 years. It would have been easy in this climate to have taken somebody else, but it says something about its progressive nature and innovative thinking that it has done this. I hope I will be able to bring some unique understanding, having been at the sharp end of things for 30 years, especially in Derry, to help move Co-operation Ireland on to the next level.

The overarching aim has been that we move communities towards sustainable peace. Members will be aware that the parties to the Good Friday Agreement specifically committed themselves to partnership, equality and mutual respect as the basis for relationships within Northern Ireland, between North and South and between the two islands. In addition, they committed themselves to the achievement of reconciliation, tolerance and mutual respect. As part of the implementation of the agreement, the committee might want to know how much progress has been made towards those aims.

The Towards 2016 partnership agreement recognised that co-operation needs to be at the heart of strategic planning on the island. The focus must be on mutual gains to demonstrate that the economic and social success of each part of the island is advantageous to the other. It also referred to the historic task of completing the process of reconciliation between the two traditions on the island. The basis is all there, but as Mr. Kennedy says, sometimes warm words do not deliver.

Since I joined Co-operation Ireland on 8 September, I have found from speaking to people in America, the UK and in the South of Ireland that many think we no longer need peace building, and that surely by now it has all been done. The transition from the post-conflict society is far from complete, even from a political violence point of view, but also from the point of view of residential segregation and communities characterised by mutual mistrust and suspicion. One of the interventions of the two Governments was to bring the equality agenda forward, but the interpretation of that agenda has been very different in both communities. In spite of all the good work in those interventions, many Catholics remain convinced that their communities continue to endure discrimination. Yet under the same equality agenda, Protestants feel that Government policy has made their community more disadvantaged by focusing on the Catholic agenda. As evidence of those different interpretations, we only have to look at the differences that arose about last Sunday's parade for troops coming home, the absence of Northern Ireland colleagues on this committee, and the fact that there are now more peace walls in Northern Ireland than there were ten years ago. There are 83 such walls in the province.

Therefore, the long-term task is to combat sectarianism and to seek reconciliation. I consistently say that we have got peace, but it is peace with bigotry. Peace building and relationship building is what Co-operation Ireland has been doing and will continue to do. There remains a pressing need to steer communities living in that isolation towards a common vision of a shared future.

I spoke at the Progressive Unionist Party conference recently where I gave the example of the Shankill Road in Belfast, which was once a vibrant, self-sustaining community, but which has lost 25,000 people over the past 25 years through redevelopment. It will not sustain itself in the future if it continues to work in isolation. It will have to reach out to the communities around it, which by their nature are Catholic, nationalist and republican communities. Those people will not shop on the Shankill Road unless they feel safe to do that. Some of the work we do in Co-operation Ireland is building on that.

I set out a vision for Co-operation Ireland in 2009 and beyond. It is not substantially different to what it has been, but it is to create a culture of peace that permeates all levels of society, brought about by activities that rely on interaction, interdependence and equitable treatment of people who have different cherished beliefs, different identities, but whose purpose is social or economic and whose focus is the future. The key words are practical co-operation, practical interaction and protecting people's cherished beliefs and identities, wherever that comes from. We can continue to assist in doing that in Co-operation Ireland by ensuring that as many sectors as possible are engaged in peace building, and through practical initiatives, to create hope in society.

One of the things lacking, especially since the Executive is not meeting, is that people feel a sense of hopelessness. If we can build hope, people tend to reach out. One of our roles has been to give hope to people through the practical initiatives about which Mr. Kennedy talked, such as the link between Finglas and Protestant east Belfast which has given young people a sense of hope. Some of us are too old to change, but there is real hope for younger generations both North and South, and these are fundamental to long-term reconciliation. If we do not engage those young people today, we will still suffer those same problems from the past.

We continue to facilitate the active participation and engagement of local civic groups on a cross-Border and cross-community level. Unlike other groups, Co-operation Ireland is both cross-community and cross-Border. We will continue to try to build local capacity for peace through education programmes and through training of teachers across the province. It is vitally important that we seek to build strategic relationships which reach across those dividing lines. In particular, I think of county manager level and district council level. In the future, funding from Europe will go into councils and we need to build those relationships and train people working with councils, so that they understand the importance in how we can assist in peace building.

Some of the work done by Co-operation Ireland has been to stimulate that feeling of interdependence. One only has to look at the current global credit problems that no country on its own has been able to treat. There has been interdependence around that economic crisis. In the same way, the communities in Northern Ireland are interdependent, as with the Shankill reaching out to other areas around it. One of the things we do consistently in our programmes is stimulate that feeling of need for interdependence, helping people to understand the other and building relationships which through experience of mutual benefit show people the value of practically working together.

We need to underpin the political agreement at grassroots level. While there are difficulties, I admit I am one of those naive optimists who passionately believe the agreement will work. However, we need to underpin the agreement at grassroots level.

I take this in three stages. I would argue that part of my role in the first 32 years has been about peacekeeping. When the calls came in about bombs and bullets, we tried to protect people's lives. I know not everybody will agree with that, but that was my passion. The second part of that was to allow politicians to do the peacemaking, which was the Good Friday Agreement. The third part, which is equally as important as the other two legs, is peace building. We sometimes get a sense that some of the actors are moving off the stage on this issue and people do not see it. We have done the hard-edged stuff, which was around policing and the equality agenda, but the softer issues of reconciliation and relationship building have been allowed to slide in some ways.

An area this committee might wish to consider is the continuing need to establish the inclusive North-South agenda and North-South co-operation at governmental and departmental level. We have to ensure a strategic approach and meaningful engagement by all Departments. There has been some of this — one need only consider the Ulster Canal, animal disease issues and the progress around planning for the road from Derry to Dublin, which is important for me as I live in Derry and have an office in Dublin. There has been some good, practical co-operation but there are other areas where this still needs to move forward. North-South understanding, which is an important goal, is lacking.

The levels of division, segregation and sectarianism in Northern Ireland are still unacceptably high. Between 35% and 49% of the population still live in completely segregated areas. If we do not do something about this now, in 40 or 50 years' time when a house goes up for sale on the Shankill Road or the Falls Road, we will know who will buy it. We must ingrain this in policy and set out how we will change it.

The North-South consultative forum is an important commitment by the Governments which is still unfulfilled. Funding for North-South and cross-community work is shrinking and this is particularly acute at this time of economic crisis. The danger is that people will think short-term and will not continue to think long-term about the need for reconciliation and peace building, and the benefits of breaking down those barriers for the new generation coming through. We would ask that the Northern Ireland Executive considers increasing its funding for this work and integrate North-South work into its refreshed Shared Future plan.

I would ask that the Republic of Ireland and this committee resist the temptation to cut North-South and cross-community reconciliation funding and that we would actively seek ways in which we utilise cross-Border, North-South approaches to all areas where financial, community and social benefits exist.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Kennedy and Mr. Sheridan for their practical and focused addresses. I note the optimistic themes to which they both alluded. I will open the discussion to colleagues. I call Deputy Crawford.

Deputy Seymour Crawford

I welcome the two speakers. I thank Mr. Kennedy for all the work he has done through the years, starting in what were quite difficult times. Some of us remember, and some would like to forget, that it was not an easy time 16 years ago. Mr. Sheridan had a different role at that time but we welcome him to his new job and wish him well.

The two speakers covered the issues thoroughly and highlighted some of the problems that still exist. Those of us with close ties to Northern Ireland realise clearly that there are still major divisions and major issues to be dealt with. Members referred to the many extra peace walls at a time when I would have hoped it would be otherwise. With the current economic situation North and South, it will be more difficult to create jobs. Clearly, a key way of trying to build peace is to have people working together in the workforce, where they can build friendships.

Co-operation Ireland has had a tremendous impact at school level and in other areas. I congratulate it and urge Mr. Kennedy and Mr. Sheridan to keep going. Many of the people to whom I have spoken appreciated in later years what they had gained from that involvement as children, which is very important.

As one living close to the Border, I have been involved in a number of cross-Border projects. The one that sticks out most is that between the parish of Truagh and the town immediately north of the Border, Aughnacloy. The initial involvement was by children but now includes the aged, who are coming together for functions, thereby building up a new trust. This is tremendous.

I am glad Mr. Kennedy referred to the Ulster canal and I appreciate his optimism in that regard, as well as with regard to the road from Derry to Dublin. As one who has an interest in driving that road, I want to put down a marker. At one of the earlier discussions at this committee, the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, raised the issue that the road between the Border and Castleshane would be a single carriageway. I urge Co-operation Ireland to use its influence on the Northern side and I hope we will use our influence in the South so that it will not just be a dual carriageway from Derry to Aughnacloy but a dual carriageway right through. This is not just part of peace building. It is a service not only to Derry but to Donegal, which has for many years been cut off from its environment.

For too long, funding from IFI and the PEACE programme has, especially in Border areas, been seen as replacement funding, not additional funding, which it should have been. This has been a major loss and a major mistake. We have not got the jobs or the structures in place that we need in the six Border counties from Donegal to the Louth border.

I wish Mr. Sheridan well in his new post and thank Mr. Kennedy for the tremendous job he has done. He worked through a difficult period.

The importance of getting the structures working properly cannot be overemphasised. When the structures are not working properly, it leaves room for those who do not want them to work to create mischief. We had a situation where the road from Monaghan to Cavan was closed for several days due to a device placed adjacent to it. We do not want to move back to those days and the only way we can avoid that is to move forward, which I would urge. Through that, we would get the North-South forum progressing properly.

In my former days as a member of a farm organisation, there was co-operation across the Border, not just with the Ulster Farmers Union but also with the Northern Ireland producers organisation. I insisted it would be that way and that there would be no difference. When one considers creameries like Tirnamona and many others that have a base across the Six Counties, as long as people get a worthwhile cheque, they do not mind whether it comes from Monaghan or Enniskillen. This is co-operation. This is where we can form a proper basis.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Go raibh maith agat. I join Deputy Crawford and the Chairman in extending a welcome to our guest speakers from Co-Operation Ireland. I am not only a member of this committee but I am also a member of the Co-Operation Ireland Oireachtas support group and I have worked with Mr. Tony Kennedy in recent years. I have had the opportunity to join colleagues in welcoming Mr. Peter Sheridan to his new position and I do so again today and wish him well in his new post.

Without question, Mr. Kennedy brought obvious people skills and enthusiasm for the work on the initiatives of Co-Operation Ireland and its stated objectives to the role of CEO of Co-Operation Ireland and I thank him for this input, his leadership in the role and for the skills I indicated whereby he was at ease with all opinion in all situations and demonstrated himself to be an appropriate person in the role and functions entrusted to him over long years of service. I wish him health and happiness for all the years before him.

I know it is early days for Mr. Sheridan but I note we had the distribution of his contribution only at the outset of the meeting. I listened carefully to what he said. Has Mr. Sheridan identified any innovation or new ideas he would hope to introduce or pursue during his years as the CEO of Co-Operation Ireland? Are there any particular initiatives he would like to share with us to seek our support or co-operation in pursuing in the time ahead? I welcome any expansion in the work he outlined to us today and at the previous meeting we had a few weeks ago.

With no disrespect intended, I would like to caution with regard to comments on bigotry. All too sadly, there is bigotry aplenty in many parts of the Six Counties. However, it is important for all of us, irrespective of from where we come to this engagement and similar engagements now and in the future, not to utilise this phrase in application to everything with which we might not agree or understand. It is not always seen or understood to be so by people with specific views. I would be careful about the application and employment of the term. Not everything referred to would be seen by me or others as an expression or example of bigotry. There are examples aplenty and I would confront it without any hesitation as it presents from all communities and opinions and I recognise it is not the unique preserve of any one "ism" in terms of the make-up of Northern society.

I agree with both speakers. A key area to which both referred is funding, which is absolutely critical. It is a cause of concern to me that at a time when people from a more hardened opinion within the Six Counties and, without question, in the Border counties are showing a willingness and taking the first steps of exploration of the potential of cross-community co-operation that we see the funding streams are in a much shallower flow than has been the case heretofore. This must be of concern.

In the past I have given great credit to those who took the early steps and these were not the most challenging steps for many involved in those early days. It has taken time to bring people from the harder edge of opinion to work up the courage, comfort or whatever it is that people need to take the first tentative steps to reach out to, what is as they see it, the other community. However, the funding streams are being significantly reduced at the most important moment to help and bring people together, particularly from the points of view that would have been traditionally reflected by those who are now prepared and demonstrating a willingness to take those first tentative steps.

Something must be done. We have the collective representation of all political opinion in the Houses of the Oireachtas on this committee. We also have our colleague MPs from Sinn Féin and the SDLP in attendance and the goodwill at least of the UUP MP north of the Border. We should endeavour to use the collective lobbying weight of the Houses of the Oireachtas and the Assembly to encourage a re-visitation of this drying up of funding support. Now is a time we need to see more funding coming forward from all of the traditional sources and to explore the potential of opening up new ones. It would be an awful pity if the prospects and potential were lost. Any further comments by Mr. Kennedy, Mr. Sheridan or the Chairman would be welcome. I will sign up to do everything I can with my colleagues in Sinn Féin North and South to aid this objective.

Mr. Pat Doherty, MP, MLA

I thank Mr. Kennedy and Mr. Sheridan for their submission. I had two questions and Deputy Ó Caoláin stole my first, which is on funding. To put another aspect to it, I am aware the Irish Government and the Executive provide funding. Does the British Exchequer provide any direct funding?

My other question is on initiatives. Can Mr. Kennedy and Mr. Sheridan bring forward their own initiatives from their experiences or must they be in part or totally responsive to Government agencies asking them to undertake various projects? Will they explain how this works?

I am aware of the time constraints the Chairman placed on us. In terms of getting into communities — because often it happens or not depending on one's point of view at Stormont or on watching the television — what is happening in communities and how are they reacting to Co-Operation Ireland initiatives and other initiatives?

Dr. Alasdair McDonnell, MP, MLA

I will be brief because time is of the essence. How does Mr. Kennedy think the Governments have done with InterTradeIreland? Has it filled the gap which Co-Operation Ireland left for it or has it stumbled? I am anxious because of various circumstances that at times InterTradeIreland seems to be about care and maintenance rather than coming up with initiatives. Mr. Sheridan mentioned the peace walls. In view of his previous experience, will he state when or how we can help to bring down the peace walls? How long will it take us to get rid of them? Perhaps that is a question that does not have a definitive answer but most of us, no matter where we are coming from, would like to see a start made. We would like to see the dismantling of at least a few of them, rather than the building of more.

Deputy Joe McHugh

I presume people from north of the Border are aware of the issue that arose here with regard to the medical card for those aged over 70. Without getting into the politics of the issue, it caused a reawakening for many people over 70 and made them realise they could still be active, that they still have much to offer and that they can play a useful role in society. That role has been largely untapped. We must take cognisance of the fact that older people on both sides of the Border have a great deal to offer, based on their own rich experience and their own vision. We should tap into that as much as possible. In that context, I will be parochial and mention a group on active citizenship in Derry working with a group in Moville. It is only a small voluntary organisation with a small amount of money, operating out of Serenity House but it is doing great work in terms of capacity building across the Foyle. I urge Mr. Sheridan to look into the good work that group is doing and to see if his organisation could assist it.

We are at a crossroads with regard to funding. We could restrict ourselves if we say that funding can only come from within the island of Ireland. The Irish diaspora were first brought to the forefront by the former President, Mary Robinson. The work done under Tony Kennedy has concentrated on building capacity with eastern America and London. We have an opportunity to seriously reach out to all Irish communities and for Co-Operation Ireland to become truly international. We should look beyond the traditional locations, namely the east and west coasts of America, Australia, England and so forth. There are other countries where we have a massive synergy of Irish people who have been disaffected, either politically or economically, by the Troubles. They are seeking to become involved in Ireland again and if the real issue is winning the peace, then we can learn from the rich experience of others at an international level.

I know of people of Irish descent in places as far away as Venezuela and Singapore who would be interested in contributing to diaspora projects. Perhaps Co-Operation Ireland is the ideal mechanism for doing that. We have much to learn from Mr. Barack Obama, whose fund-raising campaign over the Internet raised enormous amounts of money, much of which was in small donations of only $5. I urge Co-Operation Ireland to explore that possibility.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

I welcome Tony Kennedy and Peter Sheridan to this meeting. The work of Co-Operation Ireland has been excellent and laudable. While I respect those who have spoken about money, it is not all about money. It is not about money at all, in many ways. Notwithstanding the good community projects and proposals made, the key is to get into the hearts and minds of people and communities. I was not aware that there are 83 more peace walls in Northern Ireland now than before the Good Friday Agreement and am quite shocked at that.

Reference was made to young people, who can bring about change. The schools and the Internet are ideal vehicles for reaching young people and that is something with which I would love to be involved. Young people use the Internet to access various websites and to build and maintain friendships. I do not know if Co-Operation Ireland has its own website, which would be an important tool in this regard.

Schools should also be targeted in sensitive areas. Perhaps political representatives from both sides of the Border could visit the schools in problem areas and talk to those affected. In that way, we would have a better understanding of the nature of the problems that persist.

Mr. Sheridan's career in the police force, which spanned 30 years, has given him a wealth of history and experience to work from. That must be recognised. I stress that we all wish to co-operate with each other and work together for the greater good.

Deputy Michael Ahern

I also welcome Mr. Sheridan and Mr. Kennedy. When I was Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, I had a great deal of engagement with companies in Northern Ireland. Such cross-Border engagements have continued to grow, which is one of the positive benefits of the peace process and it is important that they continue.

Mr. Sheridan, in his submission, asked that the committee consider the establishment of an inclusive North-South agenda. That is a very valid point because if we do not have the correct agenda, we will get nowhere. That is something we must consider in detail.

Mr. Peter Sheridan

I will deal with the more general issues and allow Mr. Kennedy to address the issue of funding, which is the difficult one. Deputy Ó Caoláin raised the issues of bigotry, sectarianism and reconciliation. He is correct in saying that there are many people in Northern Ireland who have legitimate differences, which are not based on sectarianism or bigotry. I was simply making the link between sectarianism and that mutual mistrust and misunderstanding that happens between people and the need for reconciliation.

The Deputy also asked about initiatives, one of which relates to core funding. Mr. Kennedy will elaborate on funding, but what happens traditionally is that we limp from programme to programme because we get funding on that basis. We do not have set funding as such, but Mr. Kennedy will explain all of that in further detail. We have submitted a substantial application to the International Fund for Ireland which would fund a programme over the next three to four years to develop seven areas in Northern Ireland with seven areas in the South on a cross-Border basis. For example, it would link Portadown with Limerick, to see what can be learned at grassroots level and Co-Operation Ireland would run the programme with people from those areas.

Deputy McHugh raised the matter of free-will giving and Mr. Barack Obama's election campaign. We met representatives of the Ammado.com website, based in Dublin, which reaches out to expatriates around the world. We are now part of that site, through which expatriates can contribute to Co-Operation Ireland and donations can be of any size.

Deputy O'Dowd also referred to the Internet in the context of reaching out to young people. He is correct that the best way to get young people engaged is through the Internet, chat rooms and so on. Co-Operation Ireland is developing that aspect of its work at present.

Mr. McDonnell asked when we will bring down the peace walls. If we can get one taken down, the rest will follow. It is a bit like a row of terraced houses. If one household keeps the garden tidy, it will eventually spread to the others. That is more effective than trying to tidy all of the gardens at once. If we could get one community to take down its peace wall, and we would like to be able to fund such a project, that would give others the courage to do the same. However, as I said already, people will not shop on the Shankill Road unless they feel safe and secure. Equally, they will not want peace walls taken down until they feel safe and secure. We must get to that point first. We must also fight to ensure that no more peace walls are built in Northern Ireland.

Mr. Tony Kennedy

Mr. Doherty asked specifically about how communities react to what we do. I can confidently say that I can walk along any street on this island and meet people, talk to them and discuss the work we do. I will give an example of the way we approach things, which also links into the question about initiatives. The project we are undertaking between east Belfast and Finglas involved us approaching the Protestants and Catholics in east Belfast and the people in Finglas. In each case we told them that we would not do the project "to" them or "for" them, but "with" them.

We have established a committee comprising us and community representatives from those three areas. Together we work out what projects we will work with. It is done so that everybody is involved and engaged in the decisions. I knew if I took that project to the public sector anywhere I would be chased because I intended to develop it in association with the communities. I could not tell what groups would be doing what by quarter three because the nature of community enterprises is that one has to allow ideas to develop. We secured €500,000 private sector funding and started. There were two conditions attached to the private sector funding: I had to give a quarterly report and could not reveal the identity of the sponsor. I can live with those conditions and they have allowed the project to get up and going.

Dr. McDonnell asked about InterTradeIreland. InterTradeIreland is on care and maintenance and we have had initial discussions with it about whether we can do more ground and community work with small businesses. However, InterTradeIreland feels constrained about how it can develop and it has not got very far. Deputy McHugh raised the point about elderly people playing an active part. Since I will retire at the end of the year I support that as I want to continue to play an important part. It is an important point and we will take it back with us.

I apologise if I have not addressed every point raised. I have a couple of general points. It is correct that funding is not the only issue. I will repeat how I started. The biggest gap in this work is still the absence of strategy. If the gentlemen here — and they are all gentlemen — wanted to measure the progress in North-South co-operation, they could not do it because they have no clear set of objectives and targets against which to measure progress. How can they hope to measure what has been achieved? That is the first major gap. North-South co-operation is as important as any other Government aim. In other aspects of Government work the Government lays out its policy, consults social partners to develop that policy and then sets out strategies and targets against which progress is measured. North-South co-operation is as important as that and should be treated so.

We receive funding from the Northern Ireland administration, the Irish Government, the EU and the United States Government. We do not get funding from the British Government because it has historically been funded as a devolved responsibility through Northern Ireland. There is a haphazard nature to this and I will describe where the Irish Government stands. Approximately six years ago we used to get €400,000 per year from the Irish Government. Up to last year we received €300,000 per year and this year we expect to get €150,000. Because of changes made, we were asked to apply to a new anti-sectarian fund and we expected to get €160,000 in September. I employ people to do the work and last week we were told that the application will not be considered until next February. Co-operation Ireland will have had a real cut of 50% in its support from the Irish Government this year. This is not imaginary stuff; I employ people and must fund their positions from other sources. That indicates the absence of a clear strategy and the unfortunate position in which we find ourselves.

We were asked whether we can bring forward our own initiatives or have to get them cleared. Sometimes we can bring forward our own and sometimes we have to have them cleared. We were able to bring forward the east Belfast-Finglas project because I got alternative funding. We have a very ambitions project to try to use the Internet and Second Life to promote co-operation between people who are reluctant to meet each other. I cannot get funding for that. Although it is sitting there it cannot take off. If we are able to develop this, it will be valuable not just for Ireland but on a world stage. We can and should feed back to the rest of the world the generosity it has shown us. We should not tell them how to do things, but what we have tried, our mistakes, what has succeeded and give them the opportunity to adopt it.

Earlier I mentioned the small grants scheme, where we engaged Mr. Andy Tyrie to do the work for us. We could not do this now because as the Special EU Programmes Body has developed it has become more bureaucratic, centralised and focused on public agencies and authorities, shifting away from communities. I cannot do that fantastic project I did in Peace I and Peace II under Peace III because I do not have the freedom due to these controls. This decision was made on an arbitrary basis and the danger is that because we do not work within a clear public strategy and targets, we do not measure the impact and cannot draw the conclusions.

However, it is still good. There is still work to do. Our website is www.cooperationireland.org. I thank everybody for this hearing.

Chairman

Thank you very much. There will be lunch in the Members' Dining Room today. I sincerely thank Mr. Kennedy and Mr. Sheridan for attending here today and for their most informative presentations. They have given this committee much food for thought and we will consider further many of the points and recommendations they have made. I pay particular tribute to Mr. Kennedy for the many years of outstanding work and dedicated commitment he has contributed to Co-operation Ireland and the peace process as a whole during his 16-year tenure as chief executive. We are grateful to and proud of him and it is an honour to have worked with him. We wish him well when he steps down from his post in December and we know his wise counsel and guidance will always be available to us. We wish his successor, Mr. Sheridan, every success in his new office. This is just the first of what I hope will be many exchanges of views this committee will have with Co-operation Ireland and we look forward to meeting again.

I propose to hear both from our Ministers for education, North and South, at our next meeting on Thursday, 27 November at 11.30 a.m. At the December meeting I propose to invite Lord Robin Eames and Mr. Denis Bradley, who will already have presented their victims' report in early December. We will adjourn the meeting, vote in the Dáil and then go to the Members' Dining Room where all our members and guests are invited for lunch.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.37 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Thursday, 27 November 2008.