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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENT debate -
Thursday, 16 Feb 2012

Role and Functions: Discussion with Independent Commission for the Location of Victims Remains

I welcome Sir Kenneth Bloomfield and Mr. Frank Murray, commissioners with the Independent Commission for the Location of Victims' Remains. They are here to discuss the work of the commission. We are also joined by Mr. Geoff Knupfer, chief investigator with the commission. I understand that representatives from the WAVE Trauma Centre, along with relatives of a number of the victims, are present in the Gallery. Mr. Andrew Staunton, the British deputy ambassador, and other guests are also in the Gallery. They are all welcome to the meeting.

As members will be aware, the Good Friday Agreement specifically provided that it was essential to acknowledge and address the suffering of the victims of violence as a necessary element of reconciliation. The establishment by both Governments of the Independent Commission for the Location of Victims' Remains was one of the key actions taken to fulfil this commitment. The commission is responsible for facilitating the location of the remains of victims of paramilitary violence, known as "the disappeared", who were murdered and secretly buried. Those victims comprehended by the commission are persons killed before 10 April 1998, which was the date of signing of the Good Friday Agreement, as a result of acts committed on behalf of, or in connection with, an unlawful organisation. The overriding priority for the commission is to return the remains of victims to their families in order that they can receive a decent burial and so that the families may in some measure achieve resolution or closure. I understand the commission has a total of 16 persons on its list of the disappeared. To date, the remains of nine persons have been recovered, including seven of the disappeared, through the commission's efforts.

I invite the commissioners to update the committee on the work of the commission and the searches currently under way or planned. I understand Mr. Knupfer intends to make a PowerPoint presentation. Before I invite the delegates to make their presentations, I advise them as witnesses that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of utterances at this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease making particular statements on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter to only qualified privilege in respect of their remarks. They are directed that only comments or evidence in relation to the subject matter of this meeting are to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they do not criticise nor make charges against a Member of either House of the Oireachtas, a person outside of the Houses or an official by name or in such a name as to make him or her identifiable.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield

I thank the committee for its invitation to attend this morning's meeting. My co-commissioner, Frank Murray, and I are delighted to have the opportunity to inform it about the work of the Independent Commission for the Location of Victims Remains.

The commission was established in 1999 by the British and Irish Governments as one element of the matrix of actions taken by them in the context of the peace process. In the report, We Will Remember Them, which I produced as victims' commissioner and which was published in 1998, I referred to this issue in the following terms:

I would voice a fervent appeal, on behalf of those whose loved ones have disappeared without trace, that those who can offer information about their fate and where bodies may lie should now do so. I realise that many of those in possession of such information may fear the risk of inculpating themselves, but I am sure cast-iron arrangements could be made, if necessary through trusted intermediaries, to report such information anonymously and in con?dence. Many of the relatives have faced up long ago to the probability that a loved one has been killed, but it is one of the most fundamental of human instincts to seek certain knowledge of the fate of a husband or wife, son or daughter, brother or sister. Common humanity cries out for this modest act of mercy.

I have had the honour of serving as a commissioner since the commission's inception. We are a wholly independent and non-political body but at the same time I hope and believe we can draw on the support and confidence of parties here, at Stormont and at Westminster. The purpose of the commission is to facilitate the recovery to families of the remains of persons killed by paramilitaries during the conflict in Northern Ireland and buried secretly. These victims have come to be known as "the disappeared". The interests of these victims' families have been at the forefront of the commission's efforts since 1999 and will remain so. They have had to endure a particular cruelty in facing not only the tragedy and injustice of losing a loved one to murder, but also not knowing for decades where that loved one was buried. For some, there has been the added agony of searches mounted on credible grounds but without the hoped for result.

All the relatives seek is the return of the bodies of their loved ones for a decent burial, to have a place to grieve and to have closure. It has been truly moving to be present on occasions when the bodies of victims discovered have at last been laid to rest. The commission is deeply committed to alleviating the suffering of those not so far afforded closure and will continue its work to that end. The commission has been a model of cross-Border co-operation since its establishment, not only in the engagement between myself and successive fellow commissioners from this jurisdiction between the Department of Justice and Equality and Northern Ireland Office and the police services in both jurisdictions. We have had almost universal support and sympathy from all those interests. The commission, the two Governments and police forces and the many others who have provided services to it have all worked seamlessly together towards a shared goal. In that sense, the commission is a testament to the underlying spirit of the Good Friday Agreement.

Mr. Frank Murray

I join Sir Ken Bloomfield in thanking the committee for its invitation. It is an important opportunity for us to brief the members on the commission's activities, to hear their views and to elicit their support for our ongoing efforts. I have had the honour of being a commissioner since 2006 following the retirement of the former Tánaiste, the late John Wilson, who did sterling work on behalf of the victims of conflict. I had the privilege of knowing and working with him and he was a tower of strength in so many ways.

I emphasise that the commission's sole purpose is to find and return the victims' remains to their families so that they may give them a dignified, Christian burial. Information is crucial to the commission's work and, therefore, we are an information-led organisation. I call on anybody with information which may help to locate the remains of any of the victims to provide it, in confidence, to the commission using our freephone number or our post office box address. I cannot emphasise enough that all information provided will be treated as strictly confidential and it can only be used to locate and identify the remains. It cannot be given to other agencies or used for prosecutions in any jurisdiction.

I echo Sir Kenneth Bloomfield's comments in stressing the importance of the victims' families in this process. In this regard, I acknowledge with a deep sense of gratitude the tremendous support that the WAVE organisation has provided to the commission for many years and the work it has done with the victims' families. We have with us in the Visitors Gallery the chief executive officer of WAVE, Sandra Peake, together with Anna McShane, Anne Morgan and Kieran and Sean Megraw of the relatives' group.

Although we have had successes in recovering the remains of some of "the disappeared", some victims still have not been located and we will continue our efforts to find them. At this stage, we need further focused information to enable us to complete our mission. We, therefore, appeal most earnestly to the humanitarian instincts of anybody with such information to pass it to us now through our confidential freephone (00) (800) 55585500 or P.O. Box 10827 Dublin 2. We are also on the Internet, www.iclvr.ie.

The head of our investigation team, Mr. Geoff Knupfer, will make a brief presentation to the committee on the commission's work and we will look forward then to hearing the views of members and answering any questions they may care to put to us.

Mr. Geoff Knupfer

I will briefly talk about the structures of the commission and how we operate before discussing the processes we use to try to recover and repatriate victims. The commission was established in 1999 as part of the Good Friday Agreement and is jointly funded by the two governments. Broadly parallel legislation operates in both jurisdictions. Wherever we operate on the island of Ireland or in the United Kingdom, we are covered by the relevant legislation. Our objectives are to receive information, disclose the information, locate and recover victims and provide reports annually to the two governments. Victims are defined in the legislation as those killed as a result of action by unlawful organisation before 10 April 1998.

The evidence obtained directly or indirectly is not admissible in any criminal proceedings and, therefore, information passed to us cannot by law be used for any other purposes save that of the recovery of victims. The remains recovered cannot be used for forensic examination save that of identifying them. DNA examination plays a key part in that role. We cannot pass on the information we have to any other organisation for any purpose. We might ask the law enforcement agencies from time to time to provide information to us but this is not a reciprocal arrangement where we can pass information back to them and they understand and agree to those conditions.

The commission operated in a form of reactive phase in the early years sitting there as an organisation and waiting for information to come in. A decision was taken in 2005 to go on the offensive and, in 2006, a small team was established to carry this work forward. The team comprises senior investigators; forensic archaeologists; geophysicists; imagery analysts; canine search or body detection dogs as they are often described - these dogs are trained to detect the smell of decay; forensic science provision in terms of DNA - it is high end DNA because of the cases we are looking at; civil engineering contractors, which takes up the lion's share of spending - members will see shortly from the images I will show the scale of the work that has to be done to drain sites and then to search; and family and press liaison. I hope the families would agree the relationship the commission team has with them is warm and effective. Our bottom line is that families will never hear anything second-hand. If there are developments or if searches are going to take place, we always make sure they find out first.

There is a great deal of debate about how the list was developed and who is on it. One can look at different documents in the press and so on and the list varies slightly but this is our list that we are looking at at the present time. The current unsolved cases are Joe Lynskey, Seamus Wright and Kevin McKee, Columba McVeigh, Robert Nairac, Brendan Megraw and Seamus Ruddy. They are in date order in the document circulated to members. Since the commission was established, other than one other case resolved in 1984, a number of victims have been recovered and repatriated to their respective families. I will not go through the list because of the time constraints we are operating under. The commission team adopts a sequential approach to its operation by first and foremost obtaining familial DNA from the closest surviving biological relatives. We have our own absolutely secure and private database, which only contains family DNA samples. Of course, when victims are recovered those samples from the victims are compared with the details held on the database. We start with background research, effectively a form of cold case review, liaison with various relevant organisations and institutions, and then looking at the site itself, developing or putting together a site history and survey.

We move from non-invasive processes all the way down the line gradually to invasive processes because once we have damaged a site and invaded a site one can never put it back to the way it was. It is crucial that we start with the non-invasive processes and gradually proceed along those lines. The first one will be developing or putting together a site history, field walking, looking at physical differences in the terrain; if there is different, unusual or alien vegetation; and if there any gullies, dips or changes in the land that might be of relevance or significance. Obviously we try to find potential witnesses - people who may have worked the land, operated in that land, know the land or perhaps owned the land at the material time. That is a very important process in itself.

Site preparation follows. A few months ago I said the biggest issue we always have and the highest cost is civil engineering. Virtually all the sites in which we operate are peat bogs and the first job is to drain them so we can undertake our work there. That takes a long time and it is a very complex process in terms of getting permissions from the various landowners and so forth. It is a lengthy and expensive process.

That is followed by measuring, gridding and recording the ground in which we are interested, and undertaking a geophysical survey. This is a non-invasive survey using various techniques and I will show some pictures of that. Canine search follows using detection dogs to see what they can find for us. Then we overlay the results of all these various techniques onto one master plan so we can get a better picture of what we are looking at. Last but not least of course is physical excavation - not to put too fine a point on it, digging the ground up and seeing what we can find.

In terms of historical imagery I have two slides. One shows how a particular site appeared at the time of the event and the following one shows how it appears today. It is interesting in terms of the contrast that can be seen. This is a peat bog and the little troughs and undulations that are visible are where the peat has been harvested over a period of time. In the top right some unclear terrain can be seen. That is actually a conifer plantation and that is how it appeared at the time this event occurred. The next slide shows how the little conifer plantation appears today. They are enormous trees, probably 25 m or 30 m tall. We have the distinct impression that what we are seeking may well be inside that tree line. Members can imagine what an enormous task that will be in terms of searching and recovery.

Everything we do is recorded and this slide shows yet another one of our sites. It can be seen that it has been measured and gridded. We divide all our sites into 20 m by 20 m grids. We can superimpose on those master plans any processes we undertake and any anomalies we come across. I inserted the slide to illustrate yet another problem we face. This is a piece of coastline with sand dunes in the top centre of the picture and the sea at the top right. It transpired that when an event occurred at this site the coastline looked very much as it does today in this picture, but in the intervening period the margins of land and sea moved dramatically. We had major headaches and concerns that the grave we were seeking might have been damaged, compromised or completely destroyed by tidal erosion in the intervening period. When we found this grave we found that it had been damaged and compromised by tidal action, but fortunately that was only to a very minor degree and we were able to recover the individual concerned and repatriate him.

I will run through the techniques we use from non-invasive to invasive. The slide shows one of our sites where we have a line search of archaeologists literally walking through the site to see if there is anything unusual which does not fit the natural background.

I also mentioned the problems we have with drainage. I am showing a picture of a site that illustrates that problem dramatically. The peat bog concerned was heavily flooded when we first arrived at it and the landowners told us it would probably clear in the summer so we waited until the summer but it did not clear. We ended up having to clean out two miles of drain and members can imagine the problems that entailed in terms of getting onto people's land to undertake that process and making the land and drain safe afterwards. It was an enormous and very costly task, but we eventually cleared the bog concerned and found the victim we sought. However, it took many months of hard work and civil engineering to achieve that goal. The picture shows the peat bog and the drainage ditch we installed. When we first came across this site it was one foot deep in water and now members can see that the water level has dropped by quite a few centimetres enabling us to work. It is still very unstable at that stage and the engineering and excavation is still a very complex task. We have to use light weight wide-track excavators that work on steel mats. They will be standing on a mat and when they want to move they need to move another steel mat forward and move on to that right across the bog. So it is a very slow and laborious process that requires considerable expertise.

The next picture shows the site concerned. In the centre one can see our excavation taking place. However, previously that entire area was a foot deep in water. It really is a major process. It sits in a natural basin effectively, so every time we have a bout of heavy rainfall it fills with water again and it has to be pumped out.

The next slide shows how the non-invasive technique starts. Our first job is to get our people onto the ground to grid it and measure it. Obviously we use the most modern techniques we possibly can to undertake that process. The next slide shows the end result. Those are all 20 m by 20 m grids that have all been worked on in one form or another.

This is the sort of information that our specialist surveyors are able to present to us at the end of this process using an IT package to reconstruct the ground about which we are talking. This one was quite interesting inasmuch as we received information to suggest that a victim was buried in this particular piece of ground. It transpired that it was an old quarry - probably 100 years old. We were able to eliminate it because of the nature of the terrain.

The first of the non-invasive techniques is magnetometry, the second is resistivity and the third is ground penetrating radar. These are all techniques not to find victims or bodies, but processes that throw up anomalies under the ground. As I stated, we overlay these different processes, one on top of the other, to see whether the sum total gives a good hint as to where to look first. They do not always work, but if they do and they are effective it short-circuits the process enormously and saves a great deal of money also.

This picture is of another lovely summer day in County Monaghan - I am not joking, it actually was a summer day. One can see the conditions in which our people must operate. We have cleared the peat away and beneath it is a level of clay. We know from the information we received this victim was buried in clay so the area is of enormous interest to us.

The third process is ground penetrating radar. This is a relatively recent invention developed by various technical boffins, primarily to locate non-metalic ordinance such as non-metalic mines. Throughout the world the military uses ground penetrating radar. An interesting application of it is in forensic archaeology, and in archaeology more generally. It can be very effective but this depends absolutely on the ground on which we operate. Sand can be a very good medium in which to operate where it is very effective. However, it does not work at all on sand full of sea water. These are the types of dilemma we have. All of the information we obtain is fed into various IT systems and then interpreted by geophysicists who are well qualified in interpreting various techniques and putting them together.

We spoke about cadaver dogs which are trained in the detection of human remains. While this process does not appear very technical, it is very precise and very clear. It cannot be seen very well on this slide but the individual in the picture is working in a 20 m by 20 m grid. He will put lines across every meter or half meter and use a boring tool to make a hole in the ground at every meter or half meter along each line. The dog will then walk along the line and is trained to detect scent coming up from the holes made by the probe. It is a very slow process but very meticulous. Detection dogs are wonderful in terms of recent burials but we are operating on the limits in terms of the length of time since burial. It is stating the obvious to say the dogs react to the scent of decay and once soft tissue has gone this process either slows or comes to a halt.

The final part of the process is physical excavation. In this picture one can see one of the sites we looked at earlier. There are drainage ditches to the left and right and one can also see the lightweight wide-tracked excavator operating on a steel mat very slowly taking away section by section a few centimetres bucket by bucket. At the side of the picture are two forensic archaeologists overseeing the entire process. Not only is the process of excavation overseen but the spoil is also examined. It does not look very high tech but believe me it is and it works very well. The excavator operators become very proficient in the work and because they are that bit higher they can be the first to see anomalies and they shout when they do so.

This picture shows what we look for in an ideal world: the peat surface can be seen at the top, right and bottom of the picture, and in the middle of the picture the layer of blue clay which sits underneath the peat can be seen. It is clear to the naked eye there has been some type of incursion through the blue clay which looks broadly to measure 1 m by 2 m. I must state we got very excited when we found this. Sadly it transpired it had been caused years ago by an excavator, probably with a very broad bucket. Our hopes were dashed unfortunately.

This slide shows the type of information provided by our geophysicists. There is a heat map in which information from the various geophysical processes is overlaid onto the map and analysed as exciting or not very exciting in various colours. I ask committee members to forgive me for rushing through my presentation but I am conscious of time.

The next slide is included to illustrate yet another dilemma we have. Most observers would expect if we were looking for a body buried 30 or 40 years ago we would be looking for a white boned skeleton. This could not be further from the truth or the fact. This slide shows a dog's skull we came across during one of our searches. The bone has been stained by the peat. We end up looking for brown remains - if this is not being too brutal - in a brown background. It is a very difficult process and must be done with consummate care.

I have included the next slide to give committee members an idea of the type of locations in which we operate. They are miles away from civilisation in terms of the resources we can bring to bear. They are often very remote and it is always a problem to get resources and heavy equipment to the sites.

The next slide is included to illustrate how effective the mechanical process can be. Many archaeologists would state one could not begin to look at an archaeological site using JCBs. I have included this slide to show how effective it can be. I do not know whether it is particularly clear, but the archaeologist is highlighting a denim rivet or button we found. This is one of the sites in which we recovered one of the victims. The evidence was found as part of the mechanical process, which progresses very slowly, very cautiously and very meticulously.

The next picture shows another site and one can see the marks of the excavator's bucket on the ground. The supervising archaeologist has called a halt to the work because something has been found. Again, this turned out to be one of the victims whom we were able to recover and return to the family.

In every case so far, the body recovered has been largely or completely skeletonised. Therefore, we rely very heavily on DNA processes to establish identity. I must stress these are high-end DNA processes which use new technologies. Remarkably, the clothing of most of the victims we have recovered has been in fantastic condition. This slide shows the clothing we recovered from one of the victims. Family members were able to identify the clothing and state it had been worn by their loved one when he disappeared, and confirm the DNA information we had.

We receive many reports of various sightings of disturbance of soil. This picture shows one in a graveyard. The easiest way to eliminate them is to send in an archaeologist to have a quick look, which is what this picture shows happening. Sometimes the sites can be eliminated in a matter of a half an hour or an hour. I must state that as a policy we do not wear forensic suits and this is for a very good reason. We do not want people to believe we are undertaking an investigative process when we recover victims. We make a point of wearing our ordinary site clothing, as it were, so no suggestions can be made that we are preserving recovered remains for forensic examination other than DNA examination to establish identities.

We receive many reports of missing persons and must make it clear that the commission is not a missing persons bureau. However, when we receive reports, we go to considerable lengths to ensure we put the people contacting us in touch with the appropriate authorities.

As our commissioners have stated, our activity is not currently time-limited. Once we have finished the active phase, the structure will remain in place sine die. The hot topic at the moment is the future security of Independent Commission for the Location of Victims’ Remains, ICLVR, records. I have no doubt that this has been brought about by the recent activity in connection with the Boston College archives. We want to make it crystal clear that the commission’s records will always be retained by the commission and will never be passed on to any other body or organisation. They are safe and secure for the future.

We anticipate - the two Governments have agreed - that the structures will remain in place to receive, pursue and investigate information and, where appropriate, to conduct further searches. We have had interesting and informative discussions with the International Red Cross, which is interested in what we are doing and the unique structure we have developed - the Ireland model. None of us would be surprised if the Ireland model was adopted in other jurisdictions.

I thank Mr. Knupfer. I will invite questions from members. Deputy Ó Ríordáin has indicated.

I thank the panel for its presentation and excellent work. I acknowledge those in the Gallery who have an interest in this field, some of whom have suffered a great deal. I can think of nothing worse than losing a loved one and not having the finality of a burial.

I was taken by the sensitivity with which the presentation was made. I wish to ask about the criteria the commission uses to investigate cases. Nine of the 16 cases listed have been resolved satisfactorily. The panel might not be in a position to answer my question, but are there families who do not accept the commission's criteria as regards the use of evidence and further criminal investigations? There could be other cases of disappeared persons that do not fall under the commission's remit. The bulk of the seven outstanding cases date from the early 1970s. As the years go by, how more difficult does an investigation get in terms of the people who have information and the deterioration of remains? If the commission is to last for another ten, 15 or 20 years, will longer periods impact on its work?

One case seems to involve work based in France. What level of co-operation has the commission had with other jurisdictions?

Unfortunately, I must ask a question that we always ask about funding, given the current economic situation in Ireland and the UK. As the commission's work is important and sensitive, I hope that its funding and access to resources have not been impacted negatively.

I will allow two questions at a time, starting with Deputy Smith.

I join with the Chairman and others in welcoming the commissioners and their colleagues. I compliment them on their excellent, important but difficult work with families who have lost loved ones. I wish the commission well in its future work and hope that further progress can be made.

How many searches have been conducted outside our jurisdiction? Is the work more restricted when it occurs outside the island of Ireland? Parallel legislation was introduced in both jurisdictions.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield might answer those questions.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield

I will address one or two of them while my colleague will pick up on the others. Both Exchequers are conscious of the burdens they must bear. As it happens, my colleague, Mr. Murray, and I recently had an encounter with Mr. Hugo Swire, MP, Minister of State at the Northern Ireland Office, and the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter. It was made absolutely clear to us that there was no question of cutting back on the resources available to us.

This brings me to the real question of at what point does one write a case off because too much time has elapsed and no further progress will be made. The trajectory of our activity is interesting, as victims have been recovered in two phases. A number were recovered during the early stage of the commission's work when, quite frankly, our methods were crude. We learned as we went along. In those days, we saw the commission as an information pipeline - information went in at one end, was passed in practice to the Garda Síochána, since every case related to the South, and the Garda got on with it. After that phase there was quite a lapse. As Mr. Knupfer explained, we changed our mode of operation in the 2005-06 period and have made a flurry of relatively recent discoveries. It is impossible to say that we have reached the end. Information crops up in extraordinary ways.

We will not face a problem of resources, even in the current economic circumstances, and it is far too early to write off the possibility of making further progress. Indeed, to decide such would be quite wrong. Mr. Murray may wish to address the other points.

Mr. Frank Murray

Our work during the past six years has cost the Irish State in the order of €4 million. Much of it has been spent on engineering work and employing experts to conduct the types of searches that Mr. Knupfer outlined.

Deputy Smith asked about searches outside the jurisdiction. As the committee knows, the commission's writ is as an all-island body. We can work North or South depending on where we have been told the victim may be buried. Only one case was outside Ireland and the UK, and that was in France. We managed to do what we could. It involved diplomatic negotiations with the French authorities and took a little time, but we got there, were granted the permissions we required and were able to do what we could on the basis of the information supplied to us. Unfortunately, we were not successful because the information was not accurate enough.

It would be impossible to overemphasise the importance of focused, accurate information. All of the work outlined in our presentation is only carried out in areas in respect of which we have information that suggests victims are buried there. In the case of the late Gerry Evans and Carrickrobin, the information was that he had been buried 30 yd. inside. Even when we went to 60 yd. and 65 yd. we found nothing. It was only when the search was extended to 95 yd. that the remains were found. People's memories do not necessarily improve with age, if I can put it that way.

Dr. Alasdair McDonnell, MP, MLA

I can endorse that.

Mr. Frank Murray

The nature of the landscape changes. It is not the same as when the victim was buried.

Mr. Murray might not be in a position to answer this question. Are there other cases, possibly outside his remit, in which the families are not comfortable with the idea of leaving aside a criminal investigation?

Mr. Frank Murray

That is not a problem that has arisen for us or a dimension that we have encountered. We deal and have a close working relationship with the relatives group through the good offices of the WAVE organisation which is represented here.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield

It is important to realise that ours is not a missing persons bureau. People are inclined to think we will search for anybody who is missing in any circumstances, but that is not what we are there for. The terms are dictated by the language of the statute.

Mr. Frank Murray

We are very conscious that with the passage of time this job does not get any easier, but there may be a few individuals who could help us, if only we could reach out and encourage them to come forward through the channels outlined to give us the extra piece of the jigsaw that we so badly need in some of the outstanding cases. We have searched in a particular part of County Meath, Cogglestown, for the remains of two victims, Mr. Seamus Wright and Mr. Kevin McKee, who we believe were buried together. Ten acres of land have been excavated, but we have still not found their remains. Perhaps there is somebody who could help us a little more and, if so, we would only be too pleased. The relief for the families when a body is found must be seen to be believed.

I thank Mr. Murray. I acknowledge the presence of Mr. Jon Hill from the commission, Mr. Dermot Woods from the Department of Justice and Equality and the Members of Parliament who are with us again today.

I thank the speakers for coming to make such a detailed submission on the forensic, sensitive, time-consuming and exhaustive nature of their work. It is a difficult issue with which they deal. I have three questions. We speak about the need for confidentiality and records. Has there been any breach of confidentiality in the years they have been doing their work?

Mr. Frank Murray

That is an easy question to answer: no.

That is good. Second, have there been any nuisance reports where persons have provided misleading information?

Mr. Geoff Knupfer

In the early days it was an issue that caused us great concern when we provided a freefone line, a post office box, etc. I am delighted to say, however, that there have been no bogus or malicious calls.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield

There is an important distinction to be made between being misinformed and misled. One may ask why it is, having had what seemed to be firm information in a number of cases, we have not made any discovery and if this means that those who provided the information were attempting to mislead us. One cannot reach a final judgment, but it is highly unlikely. The reality is that some desperate young men were involved in the dead of night in a very isolated part of the country and I suspect the last thing they were doing was saying to themselves that perhaps 40 years later they would have to indicate in some detail where the body could be found. Of course, as Deputy Feighan will be aware, the terrain of Ireland can change enormously over three or four decades: there is now a bog road where there was none and trees have grown where there was none, etc. There have been occasions when we have been misinformed innocently. I am very reluctant to believe we were deliberately misled. It is not impossible, but it seems unlikely. For the life of me, I cannot see how it would be in anybody's interest to mislead us deliberately.

Obviously, there are people who have information. Is there anything the committee can do to assist in trying to elicit that information that could lead to loved ones being found?

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield

Publicity - one cannot have too much of it. In this regard, I pay the church a warm tribute. Cardinal Brady, the Archbishop of Armagh, has taken this issue very much to heart. Mass has regularly been said on Palm Sunday for the relatives of the disappeared and there have been numerous appeals made from the pulpit on appropriate days to seek information. The message cannot be hammered home too frequently; the more, the merrier. There may still be people who have information. They may not even be aware how useful it could be, but if they know anything, I ask them to come forward and tell us. Anything members could do to convey that message would be appreciated.

I will call two questioners at a time and try to stick to that format.

I welcome the members of the commission and commend the for their work. I hope the commission will meet with success in dealing with the outstanding missing person cases. It is essential for everybody concerned that we bring to an end the hurt and pain of the families who have lost loved ones and also to seek justice for them and the memories of their loved ones.

I come from a country area and I am very well acquainted with how the terrain of an area can change. It was also reassuring to hear Sir Bloomfield make a distinction between being misinformed and misled. On the digs that have taken place on the sites on which remains have been recovered, would it be fair to say that in the case of many of them the commission had to revisit them repeatedly to recover the remains because perhaps, as stated, as a result of memory loss and a change to the terrain, the information it had received was not completely accurate? On the co-operation the commission is receiving from persons who may have been involved in some way, is it satisfied that such co-operation is at the level it should be? Are there searches ongoing and, if not, when will they resume?

I join in the welcome extended to the speakers and their colleagues. The work they do is extraordinarily important and nobody could minimise it. It is great that they are here and I wish them continued success.

I also welcome those in the Visitors Gallery because for them this is a very sensitive and important issue. Mr. Murray might explain, although it is not part of his brief, whether WAVE is an organisation that represents the families. It has been stated there are two groups represented in the Visitors Gallery.

In a sense, this questions overlaps with Deputy Ferris's final question on how optimistic the commission is dealing with the remaining cases. Is it correct to state there are seven cases remaining on the commission's list? How hopeful is the commission in seeking to solve them? Does it have anything to go on in any of them? Obviously, there might be sensitive information which it might not wish to give here.

I was interested in the point made about the archives and Boston College. Is the commission finding this a big problem? Is there a nervousness about it and, if so what, steps is it taking to overcome it? It was interesting to hear that what had happened might create a disincentive or a barrier to the commission receiving new information. If that is the case, that would be a shame. Has the commission encountered a problem in this regard, or is it merely assuming there is a problem?

Will the commission repeat the contact details? The reason I ask this question is that my local radio station has expressed an interest in this issue. One of their researchers was in contact with me, so I might give them those details. It would help me if those three contacts could be repeated. They have an interest in the issue, which is obviously a Border matter. It is an issue in every part of Ireland but it is a particular issue in my constituency. I would appreciate getting those contact details again. I think I have the phone number and the website address, but I am not sure if they are correct. Another contact was also given earlier.

I also wish to ask about the local people from whom, I suspect, useful information could be gleaned. How is the commission getting on in local communities, for example, in that area in Meath? Do the commission's representatives meet everyone? One does not know what anecdotal information local people could have which might be useful. To what extent is that explored?

I wish the commission continued success. It is great that we are having this meeting today.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield

Could I deal with the issue of WAVE? I was appointed in 1997 in the wider role of Victim's Commissioner, which was a transitory thing. My job was to produce a single report. That was my first encounter with WAVE. I recall going to a modest suburban house in Belfast and I had never even heard of them before. I sat down - I have never forgotten it - with a circle of widows from both sides of the community. It was a very emotional occasion and I realised what wonderful work these people were doing. It has been one of the pleasures of what otherwise is a rather melancholy exercise, to go to WAVE and see the work that Sandra does and to see the spirit among the victims.

I wish to make a point that I suspect applies to both jurisdictions. Essentially, voluntary organisations of this sort are often on fairly short commons, and are terribly dependent on dole-outs from the European Community which are not necessarily extendable. I am always worried that institutions which are of tremendous value in our society have not got a guaranteed long-term existence. If WAVE were to rein in its activities, it would have a serious impact, not only in dealing with the specific problem of the disappeared but also in dealing with the wider problems of the victims of terrorism. They do other things. I have been up there twice at their invitation to talk to parties of multiple amputees. When one sits twice in a room with a gathering of multiple amputees one has some idea of the cost of all we have been through. WAVE has done a wonderful job, which is absolutely invaluable.

As regards the Boston College issue, we have been at pains to make it clear that we are not the police or the government. The commission is an independent, non-political body. Let nobody be in any doubt that it has nothing to do with us. We will pursue our business and what other people do is not our business. We want to make it absolutely clear to everybody that we will stick within the language and spirit of the statute. We keep our cards close to our chest and it is very much in the interests of everybody that we do precisely that. There are some other points with which Mr. Murray will deal.

Mr. Frank Murray

I have said once or twice in radio interviews that we do not prepare files or papers for the Director of Public Prosecutions, North or South. That is not our business, we are not in that trade.

I acknowledge that we have been getting co-operation and I will ask Mr. Knupfer to supplement that answer. We are thankful for that co-operation. Are we optimistic for the future? I do not know whether we can say with any confidence that we are. We have one further search project to undertake, probably in April, in County Monaghan. The harsh reality, however, is that after that we will run out of road on information. We have no information that would point us to where we might conduct further searches on the lines we have seen in today's presentation. That is why it is so vital that we get further inputs of information to enable us to continue our work. Without that we will just run out of business, I am afraid. As I said, there is just one search we have on our books at the moment.

As regards the freephone number, we will issue a press release which will contain it. For the record, the freephone number is 00-800555-85500. The P.O. Box number is 10827, Dublin 2.

Mr. Knupfer might add to what I said on the issue of co-operation.

Mr. Geoff Knupfer

I should make it absolutely crystal clear, and we have said this many times, that we have had enormous support from intermediaries and the republican movement in our efforts. The links and contacts we have are very much ongoing and alive.

As regards the Boston College issue, it has been flagged up to us by various intermediaries saying, "This is going to cause you an enormous problem and we have to counter it". At every opportunity, therefore, we endeavour to counter it.

As regards support, we must remember that people who were involved in these exercises and operations 30 or even 40 years ago, have moved on. Time has dimmed their memories and has changed the sites and terrains. We know for a fact that one of the sites at which we are looking was bulldozed at some stage. It is of course possible that process damaged or destroyed the grave concerned.

The people who were involved in these operations may well have moved on. They may be pillars of society and their families might not know what they did in their youth. They do not want their families, friends or neighbours to know what took place. There are all sorts of problems. We are absolutely clear that several people were involved in every one of these operations. We would appeal to anybody out there who was involved in any shape or form to contact us. Let us be the judges of whether the information they hold is relevant or important.

Finally, to nail this, we have to remember that these locations were chosen for very good reasons. They were chosen because they are barren, bleak stretches of land with no identifying features. That too causes us enormous problems. A grave may well be out there but where do we start to look? To ask somebody to go back there 40 years on and show where it is is a tall order by any stretch of the imagination.

To recap, we have tremendous support and enthusiasm from the organisations we talk to, but we always want more.

Mr. Frank Murray

We were asked whether we talk to the locals. Yes, we do. We get great co-operation and encouragement in all instances form the locals. We maintain contact with them. I have had some dialogue myself with people and have made a point of visiting all these sites. We go back to sites and search for other areas, but it would have to be on the basis of a suggestion, a hint or additional information that might point us in another direction. The Aughrimbeg site was a case in point.

If there is any further point that we overlooked, please remind us. We are anxious to give the committee what it wants to know.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield

Could I put one interesting statistic into play?

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield

In regard to the extent of the digging, over the years, more than 62 acres of land have been excavated. I am told that is the equivalent of 17 Croke Park pitches. It gives one an idea of the dimension of work involved. There are a number of other sites where work has been undertaken that has not led to digging. This gives an idea of the dimension and scale of the effort required.

There will be a vote in the Dáil at 1.15 p.m. so I will call Senator Jim D'Arcy, Senator Mary Moran and Mr. Mark Durkan, MP.

The witnesses are very welcome. They are doing a great job. They said that both the physical and political landscapes have changed. With regard to the information it needs, I presume the commission is depending more on individuals than groups at this stage to provide the information. That is what I hear.

Mr. Frank Murray

I agree with that comment.

I have the list of seven people. I heard the witness say that the commission was actively searching at one stage for two people in Coghalstown, in County Meath. Does the witness believe that will be the ultimate location? In the case of Captain Nairac, I presume the commission would focus that search in the south Armagh and north Louth area. There are four other people. The witness mentioned Monaghan. There is no point going on radio in Wexford and seeking information in that county. Where do we need to concentrate? I would be willing to assist in my area of Louth, like Deputy Joe O'Reilly said with regard to Cavan. There are seven people on the list and the other four need to be found. To get into detail, what can we do and in what areas? Does the commission have any direct information on any of the other people? With regard to the substantial information the commission received that helped it locate remains, would it be fair to say that it needs some information from those directly involved at the time?

I thank the witnesses for attending the meeting today and giving us such a comprehensive report on this very sad, tragic and sensitive situation. I commend them on their work to date in trying to find a resolution for all the families involved with regard to their loved ones. I welcome the people in the Visitors Gallery. This must be an extremely hurtful situation for them.

Like some my colleagues, I am also from the Border area, in my case Dundalk. I have grown up with these searches. I particularly remember the search for Jean McConville. I also remember the searches in the area for Captain Robert Nairac when I was a child, as well as for various other people. I grew up during the 1970s and it is good to see that the political climate has changed and is moving on.

Some of the questions I had intended to ask have already been mentioned. Is every piece of information that is given acted upon, regardless of how trivial it might appear? That is very important. When the commission receives information, does it immediately inform the families or does it do some initial preparation work to avoid raising false hopes? What supports are in place for the families? Are they ongoing? This must be a very traumatising time for them. Even listening to the proceedings today, I find it sad to think that this has happened. Are there ongoing supports for these families or is it just when family members are located?

Finally, I wish the commission every success in finding the remaining seven people. I ask its members to keep the communication lines between us open and active so we can do what we can. Being from the Louth area, I would be happy to do anything I can there to publicise this. I would also be interested in meeting the families.

Mr. Mark Durkan, MP, MLA

I thank the witnesses for their presentation and, more importantly, for the work that is reflected in the presentation. When one attends the funeral of somebody who has been disappeared one gets a real sense of the relief and released grief it brings for the family. One also realises how hard it is for the other families who attend and who still await such an outcome or release for themselves.

In terms of anything we can do to be helpful to the commission, as well as giving encouragement to people to come forward with information, are there any things elected representatives or commentators should not do with regard to the treatment of the issue, things that are said or messages signalled which could potentially make things difficult for the commission? Even with matters such as dealing with the Boston College controversy, is there a danger that, the more some of us talk that up, we are fixing that as a problem in people's minds? Does more need to be done to dissipate any lingering doubt or excuse anybody might give themselves for withholding anything? It is not just the Boston College issue. Some people have reacted to the fact that the de Chastelain information was given to the US State Department and not everybody believes that is particularly secure after WikiLeaks. Can the witnesses be absolutely clear that at no point will the commission's information be reposited with anybody else, even if there ever comes a point where the existence of the commission is terminated? Will that information not be reposited anywhere that could generate any worries or doubts about it for anybody? That must be emphasised.

Are there any issues about the commission's mandate or resources that the witnesses think should be revised or topped up at this stage? During recent questions about the commission in the House of Commons, one of my colleagues from Northern Ireland, Ms Sylvia Hermon MP, raised the issue of her constituent, Lisa Dorrian, who disappeared subsequent to the commission's definitive reference dates. It was clearly at the hands of a paramilitary organisation and some people believe that anybody who has been disappeared by such organisations should be amenable to the services of the commission.

Two more people, Mr. Pat Doherty MP and Deputy Seán Crowe, have indicated that they wish to ask questions, so I will call them now.

Mr. Pat Doherty, MP, MLA

I thank the commissioners for attending this meeting and giving their presentation. I acknowledge the presence of the relatives in the Visitors Gallery.

It must be said up-front that on this issue a massive injustice was committed by republican forces in the North during the conflict. Anything that can be done must be done to resolve it. Many of the questions I intended to ask have been asked. I am interested in what the witnesses describe as the proactive phase, in which they appear to reorganise based on the knowledge of the earlier phase and bring a very forensic approach to it. Can that forensic approach be revisited on the phase before 2005 and 2006?

I welcome the families and the group from WAVE to today's proceedings. Like other members of the committee, I found the submission very uncomfortable. I knew one of the victims, Seamus Ruddy, for a short period during the 1980s. He was in Dublin and was involved in the H-Block-Armagh campaign. I am uncomfortable with the scientific, matter of fact approach to it. While it is in the nature of the work the commission is doing, it does not reflect the horror and terror the victims went through. I do not know if it reflects the heartbreak the families went through over the years. I do not know how we can articulate that at a meeting.

I can relate to local matters. I know a family whose son has disappeared, probably because of drugs. In another family, the husband walked out, never to be seen again. From my life experience, I do not know where to put it and what the families are going through. If people are listening and have information, they need to come forward. It is important to secure the records because it will give confidence to more people to come forward. Many people listening do not understand that time dims memory. For those who carry this out, the horror of it lives with them to this day. It is vital that this call is heard in Wexford, Cork and Kerry because we do not know where the people with information are living today.

I wish the witnesses well in their work. This is a great wrong that must be undone and republicans that have information need to come forward and provide it. They must try to end the suffering of the families. That is the view of most committee members. It is important that people note the number and follow up whatever information they have. They may feel it is not important but the commission will go through the information forensically and hopefully it will help to recover more of these victims.

On that point, the committee will issue a statement after this meeting to encourage people to come forward with information and to support the work of the committee.

Dr. Alasdair McDonnell, MP, MLA

I thank the commission for its effort over the years and the insight provided at this meeting. If I can second-guess the relatives, family and friends, they will be comforted that the commission is still on the go. How do the witnesses visualise the future of the commission? There is one digging project in April; after that does the commission go into semi-hibernation? Reference was made to the records. How does the commission see it ending its work?

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield

Let us appreciate that the commission is set up on the basis of an international treaty between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland by act of Parliament and of the Oireachtas. It is not time limited and the existence of the commission is, in that sense, indefinite. The commission can only be terminated by the agreement of the two Governments. In the context of possible termination, it is inconceivable that the two Governments would not think seriously about the continuing safeguarding of the records. Whatever governments are in power in London and in Dublin, they will appreciate that these guarantees must be extended indefinitely.

Mr. Geoff Knupfer

I hope I capture one or two of the questions in these points. It is important to bear in mind that while we know the locations where the events took place, we do not know where the people involved are now. It is crucial that the appeals are Ireland-wide. Some of the people we want to talk to are in the USA so the wider and louder we make these appeals, the better. Primary information is the best source but, if we must, we will deal with sources through intermediaries. We far prefer to deal with primary sources, those who were directly involved. We are aware that the republican movement may have lost touch with those people and does not know who they are, which is another point we are anxious to raise. People may assume others know they were involved but in fact, others are not aware.

When we have substantive information, we will evaluate it, put it to the commissioners and it will go to the Governments. They will decide if they are prepared to fund it. We are not digging holes on a whim. If it is substantive information and appears to be of high quality, we will act accordingly.

As far as information coming in is concerned, we have recovered a number of victims and no one who has provided information to the commission has ever been interviewed by a law enforcement agency, no one has been arrested, no one has been prosecuted and no one has been convicted. The information remained wholly and solely within the commission, and will remain so.

As to whether we pass on information to families, we take a decision on whether it is of relevance and importance. If it is, we ensure we tell the families so they do not get a nasty shock. My colleague, Mr. John Hill, undertakes the role of family liaison officer. He is in close contact, virtually on a daily basis, with members of the various families and, although it is a hackneyed phrase, we try to manage expectations. We do not build up people's hopes and we are realistic about what we have been told and how valuable it is.

We do not want to become a political football, we would love everyone to support what we are doing and we appeal for anyone with information to come forward. Many people were involved in these processes. It was not just one or two individuals. There were major logistical operations where people were brought from other areas and taken to sites that had been prepared. Many people are involved, it does not just involve local people but also people who were moved to a particular scene. We would like to hear from people involved in any part of the process.

Our reactive approach will be judged on the value of information, its credibility and its accuracy in terms of what we do. Information is our lifeblood and without it we can go nowhere. We always appeal for people involved in these processes or those who know something about them to contact us, either anonymously or, preferably, in person so that we can talk. People should allow us be the judges of whether the information is of value.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield

All information, including anonymous information, is considered very carefully. It is more credible if we can attach a name, identity and source to the information. It is important that, even in a case known to be before the commission, collateral is very useful. This is where we have not one source but a number of sources giving us much the same information. That greatly increases the hope of finding a body. Let no one think because the commission is active in a particular case, no further information would be useful. If anyone has any information, we still need and want it.

Mr. Frank Murray

We have revisited sites that were looked at previously and will revisit them again if anything new comes up. Oristown bog in County Meath is one such location that has puzzled us because we have been unable to find the remains of Brendan McGraw there despite extensive efforts. We will try and try again if we get any further leads or encouragement.

A Dáil vote has been called and I must suspend the meeting to allow members to attend the vote. I thank our guests most sincerely for travelling to appear here today and for their open and helpful engagement with the committee. This is a sensitive subject and this has been an informative meeting for us and we really appreciate the delegation attending. I also thank those in the public Gallery for attending. We strongly support the commission in its ongoing work in seeking resolution for the families of those victims whose remains have yet to recovered.

Sitting suspended at 1.25 p.m. and resumed at 1.35 p.m.
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