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JOINT COMMITTEE ON TOURISM, CULTURE, SPORT, COMMUNITY, EQUALITY AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 14 Jul 2010

Community Development Projects: Discussion with Minister for Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs

I welcome the Minister for Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Pat Carey, and his officials, Ms Kathleen Stack, assistant secretary, and Ms Clodagh McDonnell, principal officer in the community and local development unit of the Department. The Minister is present to discuss the details of the new local and community development programme.

A number of changes have been made to the programme following the appeals process, thus resulting in the reversal of some decisions. There are now 52 urban partnerships and integrated companies providing full coverage throughout the country. The members are anxious to scrutinise the details and learn who is covered under the new programme and how it is decided upon. I ask the Minister to make his opening statement.

As members will be aware, Deputy John Curran, former Minister of State at the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, appeared before this committee on 27 January 2010 on this matter. I, together with officials from the Department, Ms Kathleen Stack, assistant secretary, and Ms Clodagh McDonnell, principal officer, welcome the opportunity to provide members with an update on developments since then.

As members are aware, the local development social inclusion programme, LDSIP, and the community development programme, CDP, were my Department's two main social inclusion and community development programmes. These came to an end on 31 December last and have been superseded by a new integrated programme, the local and community development programme, LCDP.

The cohesion process initiated by my Department some years ago resulted in a significant reduction of local delivery structures for a range of rural and local development programmes. Until last year, there were 94 partnerships and Leader companies operating and the cohesion process has resulted in that number being reduced to a total of 52 urban partnerships and integrated companies. They provide full coverage throughout the country.

In advance of proceeding to establish a single integrated programme, my Department undertook an evaluation of individual community development projects. Many of these projects span across two decades and activities are quite diverse. The objective of the review was to identify those projects that produced tangible, appropriate benefits for the communities they serve. The majority of projects fell into this category and were offered funding under the new programme in 2010. Where projects were not recommended for continued funding, an appropriate appeals mechanism was provided and a CDP appeals board was established.

The reason some groups did not receive an offer of continued funding was that their work was not regarded as front-line, rather, they provided representational support for communities and groups and supports in the form of capacity -building or training. The decision to withdraw funding was not a reflection on the value of that work or, in many cases, on the performance of individual delivery bodies but, given the current difficult economic climate and the demands on public resources, my Department is obliged to prioritise funding on tangible supports and services to address more pressing and urgent needs.

The appeals board completed its work on 29 January 2010 and its report has been published on my Department's website, www.pobail.ie. Following the initial review by my Department, 29 projects were deemed non-viable. Of these, 24 projects submitted an appeal to the CDP appeals board. Ten were successful. The non-viable projects were informed by the appeals board of its decision to uphold the original decision of my Department to cease CDP funding for them. One can appreciate that it is now a matter for the voluntary boards of management in each case to decide the future strategy for their companies in light of the decisions of the appeals board. My officials have been in contact with each of the projects concerned and have indicated that if the company decides to cease operations and to wind up, my Department will, without prejudice, seek to assist the directors in discharging their statutory responsibilities. CDP staff redundancy and company wind-up costs are being processed by my Department for 17 projects not deemed viable. Some €376,000 in wind-up costs has been provided to these projects to date, including €194,000 in redundancy costs.

On 23 February last, ten of the above CDPs took a case to conciliation at the Labour Relations Commission seeking a reversal of my Department's decision to withdraw funding and seeking an enhanced redundancy package in the event of the decision not being reversed. My Department did not participate in, nor was it represented at, the LRC proceedings as it is not a party to any such dispute, having no role in the internal operations of CDPs and, in particular, no role in setting the salary or the other terms and conditions of employment for individual project staff.

The matter was then referred to the Labour Court for recommendation. The Labour Court hearing was held on 1 April 2010. In advance of the hearing, my Department wrote to the chair of the Labour Court, on foot of its legal advice, to point out that the Labour Court has no competence to adjudicate in the matter of the decision not to provide further funding to the community development projects in question, that the decision was lawfully and properly made and that neither the Minister nor the Department is accountable to the Labour Court in such matters. The Labour Court accepted my Department's position as outlined and indicated that it would deal only with the redundancy issue.

The aim of the new local and community development programme is to tackle poverty and social exclusion through partnership and constructive engagement between Government and its agencies and the people in disadvantaged communities. The new programme preserves elements of good practice from the CDP-LDSIP programmes and will enable groups to demonstrate objectively the positive impacts they are securing for local communities through the prioritisation of key front-line services and supports and the minimisation of overhead and ancillary costs. My clear focus and that of my Department is and always has been to protect the most vulnerable groups and individuals in society.

The programme continues to support and encourage volunteers as the key to the programme's success in neighbourhoods, but without the burden of compliance with company law requirements, audit and other administrative and management responsibilities. My Department has set out a model for integrated service delivery and structures at a local level, which would involve, among other things, the reconstitution of the voluntary CDP boards from the end of 2010. Each board would then form an advisory committee to the local development company and act as the voluntary management committee for the local project. This approach will preserve the community development ethos in areas and will not detract from the key essential services and supports being provided through the CDP.

All community development projects and local development companies that are currently in receipt of funding through the LCDP have signed up, first, to implement the new programme in the context of my Department's integration strategy and, second, to meet specified deadline dates, namely, submission of a work plan by 26 March 2010 and an integration plan by 30 June 2010. A national model involving full integration of CDPs with LDCs has been set out by my Department. However, it has been made clear that other options can be considered and that it is not a question of one size fits all. Alternative models will, however, be required to meet a range of criteria, including a reduction in the number of structures, promoting the potential for integrated delivery of services to the public, supporting efficiencies and reducing the burden of company law compliance for CDPs. The only option not acceptable is one that seeks to preserve the status quo. Some models proposed by CDPs and other parties in the period since the launch of the LCDP have had to be rejected on that basis.

Recently, I have been able to respond positively to possible alternative models put forward by the Paul Partnership and Limerick city CDPs, and by the HSE south and a number of CDPs in the Cork-Kerry area. While agreement has not yet been fully finalised in these cases, I am confident that the real possibility of agreement exists. It is anticipated that any alternative models of the nature proposed, if agreed, could be for use in a small number of specific areas only. I assure the committee that my Department will continue to respond positively to all constructive proposals it receives, based on the specific criteria, and that my officials will continue to be available to meet the boards of projects. In this context, I have allowed a little injury time, so to speak, from the 30 June deadline, but this, I stress, must be measured in days rather than weeks.

It is important to note that, despite what is stated by some commentators, full integration does not mean closure of a CDP or the cessation of CDP activities in any given area. As has been stated previously, any worthwhile community development activity or service delivered under a CDP can continue to be delivered under the proposed new LCDP structure and by the same staff who currently do this work. Of course, CDPs may opt out of the LCDP integration process and decide to go it alone. In such cases, my Department will be supportive in regard to the retention of any assets acquired with programme funding and may also be in a position to provide for some limited funding for a transition period, subject to certain conditions.

A number of CDPs have raised concerns about the treatment of assets, especially buildings, in a full integration situation where all assets and net liabilities would usually transfer by agreement. I emphasise that other arrangements are possible. For example, the ownership of buildings need not transfer to an LDC. This was also made clear in the context of the information event for CDPs and LDCs held by Pobal on my Department's behalf on 10 June last.

I remain committed to the new programme and to implementing it in the best possible way. My primary concern is, and always has been, to make every effort to ensure the daily front-line services funded through my Department are protected, especially those focused on the needs of our most socially deprived communities. I reassure everyone concerned that my focus remains firmly on ensuring scarce resources are targeted at the most vulnerable communities through optimising our efforts and resources at the front line. I look forward to providing any further information members may require and answering any questions they may have.

I thank the Minister for his report. We all agree that resources are scarce at present but, on the other hand, the national community development projects have generated much good work throughout the country over many years and they harness many volunteers to serve the community. They are going through a period of uncertainty at present, including in my county, although I do not want to be parochial at this point.

Has the Minister had an opportunity to meet the NCDF, the umbrella body for the community development projects? I understand a request has been submitted to the Minister and the NCDF is anxious to have a face-to-face meeting with him to discuss the present situation and what the future holds for these projects.

Regarding my own area and the Niall Mór project in Killybegs, I understand the project leaders want to have a meeting with the Minister to discuss what will happen to this project which would be of benefit to the community. The project is now 80% complete but is lying idle. The organisers want to know if there is any possibility of bringing that worthy project to completion as soon as possible. I understand the Minister is in Donegal next week and perhaps he could find ten or 15 minutes to meet this group.

I welcome the Minister and his officials. Obviously, we are where we are following much debate and the concern expressed by the various groups. From the Minister's speech, we do not seem to have advanced from the previous occasion we debated this issue. There seems to be a near stand-off due to the fact the Minister and his officials have not agreed to meet the NCDF. The service level agreement that is portrayed by the NCDF as the answer that will ensure progress in this regard has not been agreed or supported by the Minister and, although it was referred to in public by him, we do not seem to have moved any further in regard to support for it.

I have said at all times that what is needed to resolve this issue is debate and to ensure all the t's are crossed and the i's dotted. We still have concerns about the funding of the voluntary efforts of various groups, and this has not been ironed out yet. There are still problems with property and, although the Minister refers to having that resolved, I would like an answer from him on this issue.

Everyone now is of the opinion that X amount of funding is available and the task now is to achieve the best possible agreement in this regard. The obvious way to do so is to thrash out this matter once and for all with the National Community Development Forum, NCDF. Although meetings have been held, some groups did not attend one such meeting at Croke Park on 11 June and therefore, a full and frank debate was not held. Moreover, were one to believe what has been said, the meeting in consequence consisted of Pobal telling the attendees what would happen, rather than a negotiation between both sides to try to achieve a result. As for management structures, I have argued repeatedly that the advisory board is something the Minister inherited from the outgoing Minister of State, Deputy Curran.

I still believe it is the wrong approach and that it is possible to have the board of management within the local partnership area, albeit without the company structure. This appears to be the major problem. However, it is possible to have the board of management in place because in all cases, the people concerned are those who initiated the various local projects that determined that the community development programme, CDP, would be generated in the first place. The basis for resolution of this issue is for the Minister and his officials to try to achieve a common denominator between both sides and to move on. There is no point in having a stand-off whereby one side says one thing while the other side says another. It is time to get around the table to iron out this issue once and for all.

I refer to a concern I raised with the Minister in the Dáil during the most recent Question Time for this Department. Although the Minister referred to the entire country being covered by these projects, a number of projects have fallen by the wayside because they did not qualify under the criteria laid down, as determined by the appeal board. I worry that some projects have fallen through the cracks in this regard. I refer to groups in areas that need support but whose CDP qualifications did not meet certain criteria. This does not take into account that good work was being done in such areas. What will happen with regard to the work that was being done in situations where there no longer will be a CDP in the area? If 17 groups did not qualify in respect of the workings of the CDP, I obviously am not worried about such workings but about the people for whom they were caring. I am concerned as to how this can be addressed and to ascertain whether some mechanism is available in this regard. If one simply moves on, that would mean that 17 different areas which need support will be left behind.

Will the Minister give a clear indication that he will seek to move this matter on? He certainly will have the full support of the Labour Party to do so by meeting the NCDF. I do not see any difficulty in so doing. It is not a sign of weakness on the Minister's part, but one of co-operation to achieve a result and to move on. We simply do not have the time to argue about this. This pertains to local communities working to try to improve themselves with the help of the Minister and with the financial implications this has for his Department. However, we must reach such a position. The Minister is aware of my position in respect of his brief and I have full faith that he can do this. Moreover, he would have the support of the Labour Party in so doing. I now call on the Minister to indicate that he will meet the NCDF at the earliest opportunity and that matters will move on from there. I hope such an indication can be given today.

As this is my first meeting as a member of the joint committee, I plead ignorance on large-scale community development issues, as they have not been part of my portfolio. I can only speak from a parochial basis and will make no apologies for so doing, as other members already have done so.

The Deputy would not be the first.

From that perspective, my sources have apprised me of the Minister's great community work in his own constituency, as well as the experience he will bring to his role, and I acknowledge the Minister is familiar with the issues that are involved. I echo Deputy Wall's comments regarding the National Community Development Forum. Its most recent letter to the Minister seeking a meeting was sent on 7 July. While the Minister is quite capable of giving his viewpoint and if necessary, agreeing to disagree, having such a meeting face to face would be constructive, even if it did not meet the objectives of that organisation.

In my constituency, I have received representations with which I agree. For example, I wrote to the outgoing Minister of State, Deputy Curran, regarding North Clondalkin CDP. While I acknowledge the appeals process was gone through, I have some concerns as to what exactly that process is for. If groups such as North Clondalkin CDP were found to be providing a valuable and proactive service and were doing some good within their communities, the definition of what constitutes tangible and appropriate benefits to the community appears to be highly subjective. The benefits achieved in recent years speak for themselves and in that context, questions will be asked if the appeals process puts in writing that the CDP is doing good work but nevertheless decides to withdraw funding. I seek a definition as to what constitute "tangible and appropriate benefits to the community" because anything that gets the community mobilised in a proactive manner is a tangible benefit. Anything that increases education self-awareness is a benefit and this has been done in spades within my constituency.

Another issue mentioned in the Minister's presentation was that while representational capacity building was not to be perceived as being valuable, front line activity was to be so perceived. What exactly constitutes front line activity? For example, Pobal refused a grant of funding to North Clondalkin CDP to carry out an exercise in increasing people's exercise of their democratic mandate. In other words, it was to get people registered to vote and to get them interested in the electoral process, thereby putting pressure back on the political classes. I consider this to be of great importance, even if those in government do not necessarily like the message that comes from people who have been empowered. I note, for example, that the previous Minister of State, Deputy Curran, saw protests outside his office, which in some cases were related to some of the community groups. However, groups have the right to put forward opinions and to disagree expressly with Government policy on matters. While I doubt that the Minister has an agenda in this regard, one fears that some groups are being penalised for being voluble, forthright and empowered and this would send out the wrong message entirely.

As the Minister said that we are into injury time, I note the Meath-Louth match has shown that bad refereeing decisions have been made and I hope that in the case of the Minister, reversals can be made on the basis of the actual benefits to communities. Even if this is achieved within the new framework, it should entail keeping on the boards those who have been involved and keeping together those teams of volunteers. While I am sure people will be flexible in terms of giving new directions, there is no point in trying to throw out the baby with the bath water. Therefore, on a parochial basis, I appeal for an attempt to redefine "tangible and appropriate benefits to the community" because they are much wider than the appeals process appears to take on board at present.

I dtús báire, cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire. In welcoming the Minister, I note that during a debate on the Adjournment in the Seanad a few weeks ago, I prefaced my remarks by stating the Minister was "very fair and genuine" and I retain that view. This is the reason I consider this impasse to be extraordinary. I have found the Minister to be highly proactive in his previous role as a Minister of State in the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs with responsibility for drugs and in his present role. He is a hands-on Minister who has a tremendous sense of what it means to be involved in community development. I have listened to the Minister and acknowledge he inherited much of this. It is good that the Minister has introduced so-called injury time and is open to responding positively to all constructive proposals. Unlike the referee last weekend, the Minister has the power to avert disaster. Deputies McGinley and Gogarty referred to the differences between specific communities, but Mahon and Ballyphehane in County Cork have powerful community development programmes, CDPs, that have embraced change. Deputy Ward was correct where boards of management are concerned, in that they comprise a wealth of community experience. Those people empower their communities and fellow citizens and do wonderful work in a sphere in which the State has — I will not use the term "been negligent" — let people down.

One size does not fit all and the implications are profound but the umbrella body submitted an alternative model. The Minister referred to the Labour Court and its opinions, but we are discussing partnership, which is about bringing people alongside one. This involves Government and local communities. I hope the Minister will engage with the National Community Development Forum, NCDF. Not all of us have the capacity to be 100% right about everything. If we all believed we could be, we would all be in trouble, so we must strike a middle ground.

The Minister has extended the deadline for integration plan submissions, but I am unsure as to why there is a reluctance to meet groups. What is the reason? I hope for a positive outcome, as this is a matter of people and communities. It is important that we reach a conclusion and empower people to do what they do best, namely, protect the vulnerable, give others a voice and build and create sustainable communities.

I welcome the Minister and his officials. I will briefly echo members' comments. There is an element of urgency in the meeting with the umbrella group, so the Minister must be proactive sooner rather than later. The air of uncertainty being generated is bad for everyone engaged in or dependent on the local CDP process. This uncertainty will damage individuals who need the service and the health of the CDP culture will be affected if a decision is not reached. A decision can only be arrived at if the meeting is held sooner rather than later.

Will the Minister expand on his opinions? He stated that CDPs may opt out of the local and community development programme, LCDP, integration process and decide to go it alone. There is a slight element of grandstanding at play. What are the consequences for any CDP that decides to go it alone? It will be disadvantaged, in that it will have no supports or structures. The Minister's comment will unnerve people.

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire agus na oifigigh na Roinne freisin. Over the years, we have discovered the importance of Oireachtas committees and the opportunities they give us to examine many items in great detail. We also receive ongoing reports as to where we are in respect of particular issues. We all accept that, no matter how worthwhile an activity is, it requires review at some stage to determine whether any fine-tuning is necessary and whether better value for money can be achieved. The latter is of particular importance during a time of economic challenges and is an aim to which every member would subscribe.

In this case, we are discussing front line services for society's most vulnerable people, a necessity on which there is unanimity in the committee. It is evident that the process of rationalisation and cohesion has been protracted. An appeals structure was put in place. It is significant that, of the 24 appeals, ten were upheld. This suggests to some extent an open mind, which is important in any process.

Regarding the so-called injury time from 30 June onwards, every member tries to be a diplomat in the best sense of the word and to help without scoring political points. Today is 14 or 15 July and the Minister mentioned that the injury time would be measured in days rather than weeks. I do not know whether this had anything to do with the Louth-Meath match, but——

That is the question.

Has anything significant occurred during those 14 days? The Minister will be the first and we are only falling in behind him. Knowing him and his style and as attested to by Senator Buttimer, we all agree he is not confrontational in any sense of the word. He has always been particularly accessible.

Community service is necessary these days and no one knows what it is better than the person on the ground. One must put faces and not statistics to the service. Is there a window of opportunity to move the process forward during the injury time? In fairness to the Minister and the Department, the process has been protracted and people have availed of the number of remedial elements attached to it. Deputy Wall mentioned that some representatives did not appear at the Croke Park meeting. One wonders why they did not, given the apparent helpfulness and accessibility of the Minister and his Department. Is something going on about which we are not aware?

We would all like to believe that everyone can be part of the proposed rationalisation. If there is any opportunity to do this, the Minister will respond. Today's contributions were constructive and positive and made in a non-passionate, pragmatic way. I have found our committees to play a central and positive role. If something comes of today's meeting, we will have served our purpose well.

I apologise that I needed to leave the meeting for a short while, but I had tabled amendments in the Seanad. I read the Minister's speech with interest. I wrote to him in May regarding this issue as a result of the many concerns expressed to me and every member by different CDPs about changes in departmental policy. This matter has been mentioned by others, but there is an air of uncertainty among CDPs, as stated by Deputy Upton. Many groups are anxious that the change in policy will mean the end of their work in providing front line services. The Minister stated this will not be the case and he is trying to ensure that daily front line services will be protected, but we are all aware of the important work done by CDPs in the most disadvantaged and marginalised communities and anxious to see it continues. The injury time reference is welcome but, as Senator Ó Murchú said, we need to know when it is likely to end, having gone on for two weeks, and what will happen when it does. It is somewhat vague at the moment. Others have said the Minister is somewhat like a referee but, with respect, he is more like the GAA if we use the analogy of the match between Louth and Meath. The groups, the organisations, the people who work in them and the many people in the committees are anxious to know their future and what is likely to happen. We are trying to be constructive and are conscious of the difficult economic climate. We need to see ring fencing and protection for the most important services provided through the CDP model.

Regarding what was termed injury time, is it the intention of the Minister to write to all the bodies giving them a final date? The Minister referred to days rather than weeks but we are now into 14 days, which amounts to two weeks. An indication that the Minister will wind up deliberations would be useful.

Do they know about the injury time?

I find this meeting very useful. All of us have a background in community involvement for many years. Community development, by its nature, is organic and any scheme or project set up 20 years ago and trying to do the same today as it did 20 years ago must examine its effectiveness. The model may be right but the curriculum may be outdated. Some of us in this meeting have taught. If we tried to teach English literature today in the same way as it was taught when we trained, we would not have success or many participants in the class. We needed to examine how community development evolved here. We looked at this in 2008 and by and large the work done is superb. Speakers referred to Ballyphehane and Mahon and superb work is taking place all over the country. The Centre for Effective Services was commissioned by the Department to examine what was being delivered on the ground, how it was being delivered and where the gaps were. The report was published in 2009 and it is worth reading if committee members have not already done so. It is available on the departmental website and is entitled Effective Community Development Programmes — A summary of key messages from a review of the international evidence. It is a draft report by the centre but a final report is also available. It is evidence-based and I want whatever we do to be evidence-based. I am not driven by another motive.

I inherited the programme and I have no difficulty in proceeding with it. Rather than people being panicked by thinking this will collapse unless they do something, a number of time lines were issued. One was 26 March, which most people adhered to, and another was 30 June, to sign up in principle to the alternative model. I assure members the vast majority of groups have done both. We are awaiting further developments from 14 or 15 groups. In the vast majority of cases, progress will be made. Discussions are going on and I have met many of the groups. The group everyone talks about, the forum, has not met me but, as with other groups representative of community development interests, I have no difficulty in meeting face to face. I do not wish to raise hopes that we will see a dramatic shift. The vast majority of projects have decided to go down the integrated route. It is intended that this process shall continue until the end of the year. People are not being forced to make quick decisions or being bounced into this. In answering the question about injury time, I hope we do not have to go much further. I am not anxious to sit around and allow people to think I will change my mind.

One group has submitted the proposal that does not meet most of the criteria. It asks only for the status quo to prevail. The model was developed by a group in Dublin and has potential in a small number of cases. Service level agreements and other models are being examined. There are anomalies about the location of a certain number of CDPs. Where they are partly in the Gaeltacht and partly outside it, it throws up challenges. We will not cut people adrift because the important point is to ensure services to people who need them are delivered. This is not about the architecture of community development, which is complicated. It is so complicated one wonders how any work gets done. We are trying to simplify the architecture as best we can, making delivery more effective and making sure the services are delivered to the people who need them most.

I am arranging to meet the people in the forum before the end of the month.

Is this the National Community Development Forum, NCDF?

Yes. That will take place in the next fortnight. Some people have referred to local projects. Regarding the project to which Deputy McGinley referred, we expect correspondence shortly regarding the CDP aspect. I hope we can respond positively to the bigger issue, which is of equal concern to Deputy McGinley. I cannot confirm it yet and I am not certain if I will meet the group when I am in Donegal later this week.

As Deputy Wall said, the service level agreement has potential. I would like to allay concerns and assure people that what is being done will be done in a planned way. Nobody will be bounced into anything and we have until the end of 2010 to ensure the process is in place. People's needs on the ground are the most important and I am anxious to ensure the needs are met.

Deputy Gogarty raised the question of front line services. Much of this is concerned with avoiding duplication. If a group in the area is delivering a service, there is no need for another group to deliver a similar service. Some projects delivered by CDPs could be covered by the formal education sector. In other cases, this is not possible.

Is there access to that funding channel? The Minister might end up getting rid of something that does not receive funding through another channel.

We are anxious not to leave gaps. Worthwhile activity, even if it is training people to picket Deputies' clinics, can be provided as long as it is spread equally and we can all participate.

One could write a thesis on that.

Effective CDPs are those that reflect the needs of the community and the needs of every community are different. In some cases there may be a strong emphasis on adult education, in other cases it may be services to the elderly. Some areas require training for groups such as residents associations, to be more effective. In many cases one must use this small funding to leverage funding for other projects, such as running a child care centre and providing victim support services or being a listening point for a rape crisis centre. The groups are different everywhere one goes. This is the great strength of the community development model in Ireland, which I will try to preserve. This is the reason I claim to have invented the phrase, "one size does not fit all". No one, be it an official within my Department or a group that claims to represent everyone else, should prescribe what they consider to be good for people. I would like to think that Ireland is a sufficiently mature democracy to allow people in a local community to take decisions for themselves without being pushed or driven into them.

At the same time, I wish to ensure effective use of the State's resources at a time when they are scarce. In response to the point made by Deputy Gogarty, in some cases decisions must be taken to the effect that some initiatives are of a lower priority than others. That is the only criterion for excluding support for the particular projects in question. As for Deputy Gogarty's point regarding overlap, I already have discussed this issue. In response to Senator Buttimer, there is no impasse and I assure him that plenty of engagement is under way. The officials in attendance with me and their colleagues are working flat out to ensure that the needs of the people they meet are addressed. They are not simply locked away in a bunker but are meeting people face to face, as am I. For example, I intend to travel to County Tipperary tomorrow, to County Donegal next week and plan to visit Dundalk and Drogheda later on. Consequently, neither the officials nor I are confined to bunkers.

I hope to allay the air of uncertainty to which Deputy Upton referred. In that context, I visited Deputy Upton's constituency only the day before yesterday to see some of the superb work being done there. However, members must bear in mind that sometimes a body such as a family resource centre carries out work in a community that is being replicated by a community development project and vice versa. The available resources should be used effectively and one should avoid having everyone trying to do the same thing. As members are aware, there is more than enough work to be addressed in every community.

Senator Ó Murchú mentioned injury time. The official with the electronic clock already has appeared once and I do not intend to send him out again. We should simply get on with it and I do not wish to hold out hopes to people that I intend to reverse the thrust of this initiative. My Department will try to accommodate local needs as best it can. Inevitably, some people will plead inability to adapt but compromise works on both sides. If, by using our model, we can compromise to accommodate the groups' needs, then some groups can come part of the way to accommodate what we seek to achieve and in turn ensure that the needs of their communities are accommodated.

In general, this is what I wished to say but if members wish to raise more specific questions, I will try to answer them. The report by the Centre for Effective Services is a worthwhile study for anyone who wishes to engage in rigorous and robust examination, on an evidence-based basis, of the reasons we do things as we do. Incidentally, when considering weaknesses, one must be honest enough to acknowledge that not everything that is being done is as effective as even those who are trying to implement it would wish. I also note that much of this was subject to peer review and was not simply a one-way exercise.

I thank the Minister for greatly enlightening members. His willingness to meet the National Community Development Forum shortly is very welcome. I again thank the Minister, Deputy Pat Carey, and the departmental officials, Ms McDonnell and Ms Stack, for their attendance and wish them well in their work.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.25 p.m. until Wednesday, 28 July 2010.
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