JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT debate -
Thursday, 11 May 2006

Road Safety and Road Traffic Law Enforcement: Presentation.

Chairman

I welcome the Garda Commissioner, Mr. Noel Conroy, the Assistant Commissioner, Mr. Eddie Rock, and Superintendent Declan O'Brien. An opening statement from the Commissioner, including information on drink driving cases, has been circulated. This information is in response to questions posed by members.

I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that while the members of the committee have absolute privilege the same does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded that members of the Garda Síochána while giving evidence to a committee may not question or express an opinion on the merits of any Government policy or policy objectives or produce or send to a committee any document in which a civil servant, a member of the Defence Forces or a member of the Garda Síochána questions or expresses an opinion on the merits of any Government policy or policy objectives.

I propose that we hear a short presentation from the Commissioner which will be followed by a question and answer session. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Commissioner Noel Conroy

I thank the Chairman. On the enforcement side, targeted road safety enforcement operations are ongoing at national, regional, divisional and district level. The operations have been designed as part of an overall strategy to reduce the incidents of fatal and serious injury collisions through the generation of a greater compliance culture by all categories of road users. For the remainder of this current quarter a number of multi-agency checkpoints are planned across all Garda regions. In addition, a national heavy goods vehicle operation and a further national drink driving operation are planned.

A series of inter-regional traffic policing operations on national corridors are also being planned during the current quarter. One such operation will take place today and tomorrow. There is a particular emphasis on dangerous driving and seat belt wearing, as well as offences such as dangerous overtaking and crossing white lines, which now come within the penalty point system.

Specific enforcement locations are selected based on safety considerations, including personal safety, coupled with the local trends in fatal and serious injury collisions. Between 7.30 a.m. and 10 a.m. and between 4 p.m. and 7 p.m. on each day of the national operation a minimum of one marked Garda vehicle is involved in traffic enforcement policing between points identified on national routes. Local district patrol cars will also be included to augment the number of traffic cars involved.

During the first quarter of this year 3,395 detected intoxicated driving and intoxicated in charge incidents were recorded. This is an increase of almost 18% on the same period in 2005 when 2,883 detected incidents were recorded. During the same period 4,593 preliminary breath tests and 2,969 evidential breath tests were conducted. From the extension of the fixed charge penalty point system on the 3 April 2006 up to Monday 8 May, 14,403 speeding offences were recorded on the Garda fixed charge processing system. In addition, 1,895 seat belt offences were recorded.

In March last 60 extra personnel were added to the traffic corps, 60 more will be added on 8 June next and 60 more will be added for each of the remaining two quarters. By the end of the year the number of personnel attached to the traffic corps will have increased to 805. In March an additional 28 vehicles were allocated to the traffic corps.

On 3 April the Garda fixed charge processing system was updated to cater for the additional fixed charge-penalty point offences. From 3 April to 8 May, 19,631 penalty point offences and 5,118 non-penalty point offences were recorded on the fixed charge penalty system, giving a total of 24,749. In conjunction with the updating of the fixed charge system the roll-out schedule in respect of the processing of fixed charge payments by An Post is ongoing. To date 437 post offices are taking payments for fixed penalty offences. In the near future it is hoped that 1,000 post offices will be able to take payment.

With the addition of the hand-held device and with payments being taken by the post offices, we have freed up significant Garda resources. When a motorist is stopped for a fixed penalty offence through the use of a hand-held device the garda punches in the name, address, offence, location and so on.

When the garda has finished his or her tour of duty, he or she returns to the station and docks the device into the system. The data are then transmitted by wire to a private company. From that point onwards, correspondence emanates from the private company, informing offending individuals that they were stopped on such and such a date, were in breach in respect of a particular offence and now have so many days in which to pay for the offence. One has 28 days in which to pay. If one does not so do, the payable fine increases, up to 56 days. This concludes my brief submission.

Chairman

I thank the Commissioner. Given the extra resources available to him, has he targeted certain times of the day by mounting extra patrols? How many extra patrols has he introduced between 10 p.m. on Friday night and 6 a.m. on Saturday morning, and between 10 p.m. on Saturday night and 6 a.m. on Sunday morning? If one examines recent statistics, the period between late night and early morning appears to be when all the extremely serious accidents took place. The tragedy which occurred in Carlow last Monday was also an early morning crash. Can the Commissioner tell the committee whether he has increased such patrols? Committee members still hear that Garda visibility between these hours at weekends is quite limited. How many members of the traffic corps are deployed each weekend during these hours?

Commissioner Conroy

I cannot give the committee a definitive answer.

Chairman

I completely accept that.

Commissioner Conroy

However, the shifts for the additional personnel who are joining the traffic units differ somewhat from those in the past, in that their hours have been extended into the early hours of the morning, particularly at weekends, when an extremely high rate of serious collisions, fatalities and injuries take place. Hence, there is a major concentration in this regard. Moreover, the assistant commissioners, particularly in those parts of rural Ireland in which district units may not face such great pressure in the early hours of the morning, concentrate their local resources to augment the traffic units involved in the detection——

Chairman

I must disagree with the Commissioner. In many areas at weekends, local units are at their wits' end trying to deal with problems of street violence. This is also the case in rural Ireland which, until recently, did not experience this problem. Such units are unable to mount the requisite volume of road surveillance, as they are engaged in keeping law and order on our streets at weekends. Hence, they do not have time to do so.

This is why I asked how much traffic corps time is targeted at these periods. Patrols must be spread across the week to avoid the perception that the Garda traffic corps is active only at weekends. However, the problem is that local Garda units do not have the time to deal with road traffic problems at weekends.

Commissioner Conroy

At present, we are running a pilot system in the Galway west division in respect of a collision-prone zones system and hope to go nationwide in the near future. We have carried out a study in Galway using data we acquired which were forwarded to the National Road Safety Authority and the local authorities. The data have been fed back to the Garda, which has used them to map the locations at which quite a number of fatal or serious accidents have taken place. Such locations have been graded into three areas. We are engaged in patrolling these zones at particular hours and are making a major commitment to them to try to reduce the number of fatal accidents. Information for a ten-year period has been studied to identify eight kilometre zones, particularly in the Galway west division, in which a high percentage of serious accidents occur. We will make use of this information to expand our work in that area.

At present however, I cannot state there has been a significant increase in the number of traffic police on duty at 3 a.m., 4 a.m. or 5 a.m. I would mislead the committee if I did so. Given the graduated increased availability of new recruits, we have considered those periods. The level of such activities will rise as the available numbers increase.

Chairman

Members accept that. However, is there any hope that some existing resources could be targeted at those periods before the new recruits become available? Who is responsible for setting the rosters regarding the hours people work? Are they set by the sergeant in charge, the inspector or the superintendent?

Commissioner Conroy

Traffic units are a divisional responsibility. Hence, the chief superintendent is responsible. However, each region's assistant commissioner is provided with information on a regular basis and they must consider events in their respective regions. While one might see a significant presence of gardaí in a county for a particular week, the regional assistant commissioner might then pull them into another division if a problem arises. I refer to problems such as boy racers and similar issues. Divisional officers, that is, the chief superintendents who are in charge of counties, no longer have sufficient resources to deal with such problems. Hence, from time to time, assistant commissioners consider issues such as public order, traffic or other matters, take them on board and do something about them.

Chairman

That is definitely the case. Sometimes, one will see extremely intensive activity in different parts of the country and all accept that high Garda visibility has an effect.

Finally, the Garda has acquired 28 extra cars. Should it have opted for 28 unmarked cars? Unmarked cars are far more effective in the detection of reckless drivers than are marked cars. In the case of the latter, other drivers use the "flash" to warn that a Garda car is up the road. Unmarked cars are probably more useful for traffic surveillance than for dealing with drunk driving or similar matters.

Commissioner Conroy

We carefully considered that possibility and it is not easy to achieve the correct balance. The Garda receives criticism both when it is not present and when it operates in unmarked cars. Quite recently, I attended a conference in Galway and travelled in an unmarked car. The public would be surprised by the information that such a car can pick up.

I agree there is a problem because unmarked car crews are the only units who will detect dangerous drivers. As soon as a marked car hits the road, people, unless they are unobservant, begin to behave correctly. Those who are unobservant generally get caught. While observant individuals comply as soon as they see marked cars, that does not mean they are still in compliance five miles down the road.

The Chairman's point is valid. However, there are a considerable number of unmarked cars in service, which detect a surprising quantity of offences. Although members of the public may not be aware of this, they notice it on receipt by post of documentation regarding various penalty point notices. The camera equipment in such cars is absolutely fantastic and if certain buttons are pressed, they can pick up misbehaviour behind them using their wing mirrors.

Chairman

In other words, the Garda has upgraded its technology to be on a par with the best in the world.

Commissioner Conroy

We do so continually. It is a changing world.

Chairman

In Australia, the committee delegation saw that the police had a phenomenal amount of technology in their cars.

Deputy O. Mitchell

The Australians even had such technologies on their motorbikes.

I thank the Commissioner, who has had a busy week, for his attendance. I have some questions regarding the penalty points figures for the first couple of months, which I understand were published yesterday. I have two points in this respect. These were all offences before the introduction of penalty points. Was there a greater degree of detection of these offences after the introduction of penalty points and, if so, why? Although one would expect more penalty points in the Dublin area, I noticed that the numbers per head of population in the Dublin metropolitan area were greater. Does this indicate to Commissioner Conroy that drivers in Dublin are worse than their counterparts in the rest of the country, although I would not have thought this was the case? What is the reason for the higher rate of detection in Dublin? In general, it is not on the roads in Dublin that people are dying. Is there not a need to spread the attention of the Garda Síochána to parts of the country where there is a greater number of deaths?

I have previously raised the issue of the lack of connection between the Garda PULSE system and the national driver file and the difficulty gardaí experience in quickly gaining information about the status of anyone's driving licence and the further difficulty this posed for the operation of penalty points. I understand from the Minister that this has been sorted out. Could Commissioner Conroy confirm that the PULSE system now automatically connects with the national driver file? Could he indicate if it is intended to go further and provide gardaí with the technology referred to by the Chairman, namely, roadside units which can connect directly with information on the national driver file? Apart from making administration easier, this technology is a safety device for gardaí, particularly those operating on their own, which gives them some idea of the driver's history and whether he or she even owns or should be driving the car before they interview him or her. This will be very important following the introduction of random breath testing. Is there a plan to make this kind of technology available?

My next question relates to intoxilisers and breathalysers. The Commissioner may have read newspaper reports over the weekend which stated that as a result of a parliamentary question tabled by me, the degree to which the Garda is under-resourced in terms of the numbers of intoxilisers came to light. I understand the number of available intoxilisers in use around the country is approximately 60. I do not know if there are gaps in services or how intoxilysers are spread around because I did not receive this information. There are 1,200 Garda stations around the country, of which only 64 have the intoxiliser. I understand that only one in five or one in six gardaí are capable of operating breathalysers, never mind the intoxilisers. If gardaí stop a motorist when they are checking tax and insurance discs, find that he or she has taken alcohol and administer a breath test, they must then try to find a Garda station with an intoxiliser within three hours. Does this not represent a terrible waste of Garda time? What kind of use of Garda resources is this and how does it really work? It appears that it would take gardaí three hours to locate a Garda station with an intoxiliser, carry out the test and return to the motorist in question. Their night's work is over when they might only have caught one person. As the Commissioner is aware, the intoxiliser test must be carried out within three hours or the case falls apart and it is impossible to obtain a conviction. If gardaí are to follow through with a conviction of someone they have stopped on the side of the road, it is desperately important that the intoxiliser test is carried out by a trained individual within the required timespan.

According to the Minister, legislation on random breath testing will be introduced soon. How can gardaí set up a road block without having this kind of technology available to them on the spot? It appears that we need the booze buses used in other countries. These vehicles allow the police to carry out intoxiliser tests at the location where the motorist is stopped. Forcing gardaí to seek Garda stations equipped with intoxilisers is a complete waste of time.

My final question is on behalf of the haulage industry, which has expressed some concern to the Minister, and possibly the Commissioner, about the implementation of penalty points relating to dangerous driving. Am I correct in stating that drivers found to be driving dangerously will incur five penalty points? Is the Commissioner confused?

Commissioner Conroy

It relates to dangerous parking.

Deputy O. Mitchell

The interpretation of dangerous parking is the subject of my question. Many businesses have parking arrangements which allow motorists to pull in off the road but many businesses do not have such arrangements. I am thinking in particular of pubs around the country where those delivering to them inevitably engage in dangerous parking. How will dangerous parking be interpreted, and will it be rigidly applied or will people be allowed to park as safety as possible given the circumstances? Could the Commissioner give me some idea of what gardaí on the ground have been told and how they will implement the penalty points relating to dangerous parking?

Commissioner Conroy

I partly answered the question about increased detection by referring to the upgrading of our technology in respect of hand-held devices. Gardaí are not forced to return to stations and write up documentation about the offence as everything is carried on the road. At the end of the shift, the garda docks his or her hand-held device into a docking device with the result that more Garda hours are spent on the road than before.

A considerable number of gardaí are involved in traffic in Dublin. While I accept that Dublin does not have the highest number of fatalities, the amount of traffic in Dublin and the message conveyed by strong enforcement justifies our policy. Many people who drive in the country over the weekend also drive in Dublin during the week, although I am not saying that these motorists cause the problems. We try to get across to people that a strong enforcement culture exists and that we will continue to enforce the law. It may not connect in every situation. Assistant Commissioner Rock would be more in tune with fatalities as it is his full-time occupation. He examines enforcement and prevention methods with his team and he could expand on this issue if this is acceptable to the committee.

In respect of drivers' and car owners' history, any of our units out on the road can call in on the radio that they are following a particular car. They will then automatically receive the name and address of the registered owner of the car. If the individual has a criminal history, our units will receive this information.

Deputy O. Mitchell

From whom do they receive it?

Commissioner Conroy

The information is available on our PULSE system.

Deputy O. Mitchell

It is on the PULSE system?

Commissioner Conroy

Yes. Each Garda car has a two-way radio.

Deputy O. Mitchell

Do they contact the station to receive this information?

Commissioner Conroy

They contact our control room, the person at the computer feeds in the number and the gardaí discover the identity of the registered owner of the car. Once they have the name of the car's owner, they can check his or her driving history. The PULSE system will again bring up everything that is known about that individual if he or she has come to the attention of the Garda. Our people on the ground are fairly well informed about drivers and their history. If someone is known to be a dangerous driver and has entered the system, his or her details will be entered into the PULSE system. Even a break-in at his or her house will be entered into the system. A considerable amount of information is now available.

Deputy O. Mitchell

When did the PULSE system come on stream in respect of this information?

Commissioner Conroy

The PULSE system has been on stream in respect of this information for a considerable period of time.

Deputy O. Mitchell

In general, do gardaí have access to the national driver file?

Commissioner Conroy

I will ask my colleague, Superintendent Declan O'Brien, to address the Deputy's question because he is working on that project.

Deputy O. Mitchell

Is it still a project? Has nothing happened?

Chairman

If Superintendent O'Brien wishes to reply, it is not a problem.

Superintendent Declan O’Brien

I have met our telecommunications people and information technology people from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government in respect of providing the Garda Síochána with information on drivers who have been disqualified as a result of receiving 12 penalty points and those who have reached that limit but failed to surrender their driving licences.

In the long term, the two IT sections are working together to build an interface between the Department's computer system and our PULSE and fixed charge processing system, FCPS, which will take a couple of months. This information, which will be supplied to the Garda weekly, will be uploaded to hand-held devices used by gardaí. Importantly, we need to know the information now. The Department will e-mail us the information on those drivers, which we can subsequently disseminate to various divisional officers. At local level, it will be uploaded to the PULSE system where it will be available for every member of the Garda Síochána.

Deputy O. Mitchell

Currently, once a penalty point is paid, it is wiped from the PULSE system. Has this situation changed? If a garda used the PULSE system, he or she would not have a record of everyone's accumulated penalty points.

Superintendent O’Brien

We know who has been disqualified as a result of having attained 12 penalty points and those who have reached this limit but failed to surrender their licences.

Deputy O. Mitchell

How does the Garda Síochána have this information? Is there automatic access?

Superintendent O’Brien

It is communicated to us by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.

Deputy O. Mitchell

By e-mail.

Superintendent O’Brien

Yes. This is the interim system. The Department has also sent us the letters of disqualification. This information has been uploaded to the PULSE system.

Commissioner Conroy

I will hand over to Assistant Commissioner Rock in respect of the intoxiliser and booze buses.

Assistant Commissioner Eddie Rock

Around the country, 64 intoxilisers are available and do not require three hours to access. If legislation gives us the authority to set up checkpoints for mandatory random breath testing, we will eventually examine the possibility of using a booze bus and having the intoxiliser on the side of the road, as it were. Logistically, it would be difficult to have at every checkpoint, but the principle is there.

The 64 intoxilisers are located in respect of the demands and population centres. Judging by our organisation, I do not believe their location is a significant issue. There are matters relating to the prioritisation of allocated resources, as maintaining and servicing the intoxilisers is expensive. There is a balance. It would be wonderful if we had 700 intoxilisers and one at every station, but it is not practical or a wise use of resources.

Deputy O. Mitchell

At present, the garda takes the offender to the station and returns to the road block.

Assistant Commissioner Rock

Going to the station where the intoxiliser is located is the arresting person's prerogative.

Deputy O. Mitchell

In which case the road block will be gone for the night.

Assistant Commissioner Rock

The detection may arise at a road block or from casual sightings, as it were, of poor driving behaviour, which is predominantly the case in the absence of random mandatory alcohol testing. Of course, the arresting garda must go to the station and there are issues thereafter in respect of resources and trying to process the case through the courts. We are taking up these issues with the various people with responsibility in those areas. We are speaking with the Medical Bureau of Road Safety in respect of these and other issues.

Chairman

Judging by the reply to Deputy Olivia Mitchell's question, 20% of the force is qualified to operate the units in stations.

Assistant Commissioner Rock

The intoxiliser is based in the station.

Chairman

I understand.

Assistant Commissioner Rock

We do not need to train 12,000 people. It is a question of prioritising resources. If we want to put 12,000 people through a training course, the roads will lose out. It is a question of balance. I have talked to our divisional officers, the chief superintendents in the areas. In conjunction with our training branch, they are responsible for ensuring that the number of people trained is sufficient. There is no difficulty in this matter.

Deputy O. Mitchell

Can the Commissioner answer my other question?

Commissioner Conroy

We have never encountered a situation in which a person was brought to a station but no one could operate the intoxiliser. This scenario will not happen.

Deputy O. Mitchell

Cases could fall because the offenders have not been intoxilised within three hours.

Commissioner Conroy

We have no case in which that occurred.

Deputy O. Mitchell

I have the details of such a case on my desk.

Commissioner Conroy

Does the Deputy mean a case in which there was no one at the station to operate the intoxiliser?

Deputy O. Mitchell

No, where the intoxilisation was not done in time. I do not know the reason.

Commissioner Conroy

I do not know of the case, but in terms of operating the system our members are sufficiently trained. These matters are monitored on a regular basis to ensure this is the case. We cannot say we will take 50 people from a certain division tomorrow morning and train them in the intoxiliser's use.

Deputy O. Mitchell

I appreciate that.

Commissioner Conroy

We must consider all aspects of policing. We must examine our resources and upskill gardaí to handle the daily matters with which they deal, whether it is crime investigation, public order issues, traffic or so on.

The Deputy asked about dangerous parking by hauliers. Parking dangerously is a five penalty point offence, but everyone must realise that a garda will not issue fixed penalty charges against someone making a genuine delivery unless the individual is causing mayhem by obstructing traffic.

There must always be common sense in these matters because the commercial sector must continue with its business. The Garda would like to see deliveries made during the night and so on. While this is beginning to happen in Dublin, we also realise it is not the case in rural towns. If a lorry driver is aggrieved, he or she can refuse to pay the charge, use the court system and challenge the Garda on the genuineness of the offence. I hope this never occurs.

Deputy O. Mitchell

Does that offence require a mandatory court appearance?

Commissioner Conroy

Not for dangerous parking.

Deputy Shortall

I welcome the Commissioner and his colleagues. During his previous visit, the Commissioner informed the committee about the Attorney General's recent advice on tackling the drink driving problem, to the effect that the Garda Síochána's powers were wide and strong and it was free to set up random road checks at any point, including outside a pub car park. Gardaí are also free to ask a person to blow into the bag if they have reasonable suspicion. On the basis of the result, the person concerned can be brought to the station for further testing. The advice seemed to clarify that the powers of the Garda Síochána were adequate to tackle the drink driving problem. How has the advice changed operations? What success has the Garda Síochána had since? I submitted ten questions, as requested, prior to the meeting. I ask the Commissioner to respond to them.

Commissioner Conroy

We have increased the number of checkpoints near licensed premises. However, there are certain drawbacks to which I referred the last time I appeared before the committee. If one uses the alcoliser or the breathalyser, one must ask if the person concerned has had a drink in the past 20 minutes but he or she does not have to respond to the question. The garda must then wait with him or her for 20 minutes before the test is taken.

Deputy Shortall

Must the person concerned be asked that question?

Commissioner Conroy

Yes, unless one sees a person staggering as he or she is getting into a car. The garda can then make the decision that the individual is not capable of maintaining proper control of the car and make the arrest for drink driving. The individual concerned is taken to the station, where the member in charge outlines the process and forms the opinion that he or she has consumed alcohol. After a 20 minute wait he or she is asked to blow into the intoxiliser. It saves time and is more efficient if the garda is in a position to form an opinion on the road, without using the apparatus. Using the breathalyser or alcometer to make up one's mind can pose a problem in court.

Deputy Shortall

Did the Commissioner state on the last occasion that failing the roadside test provided the grounds for forming the opinion that the person concerned was over the limit?

Commissioner Conroy

That is true. The garda must reach the conclusion that an individual has consumed alcohol.

Deputy Shortall

That could include smelling alcohol on the breath or seeing a person walking out of a pub.

Commissioner Conroy

Absolutely.

Chairman

Is seeing an individual walking out of a pub sufficient?

Commissioner Conroy

It could be.

Deputy Shortall

If there is a smell of alcohol from an individual's breath, can a garda perform a roadside breath test?

Commissioner Conroy

Yes.

Deputy Shortall

That was clarified by the Attorney General. How has this clarification changed Garda operations? Has the number of checkpoints increased?

Commissioner Conroy

The number of detections has increased by 18% and arrests by 18%.

Deputy Shortall

This has hardly happened since the Commissioner last appeared before the committee. Has the advice changed the way the Garda Síochána is tackling drink driving?

Commissioner Conroy

The information has been circulated to every member of the force. Rolling checkpoints have been set up. I cannot say if they are set up outside pubs but the information has been sent out. It is the responsibility of local officers to implement the directive.

Chairman

The Commissioner's statement informs us of an 18% increase in the first quarter of this year compared to 2005. This shows extra vigilance.

Commissioner Conroy

It is unfortunate there is such an increase as it is not good for society. I would prefer to see a decrease. Assistant Commissioner Rock will respond to the next question.

Assistant Commissioner Rock

The first question concerns the difference between statistics issued by the Medical Bureau of Road Safety and Garda statistics. Tables concerning blood, breath and urine samples have not been published since 2001. They were completed from manually completed forms sourced from over 700 Garda stations. As with most manually compiled returns, there are shortcomings.

We spoke to Mr. David Reynolds from the Medical Bureau of Road Safety about the number of evidential breath tests. One of the stakeholders in the road safety strategy went to a Garda station yesterday for the purpose of seeing how the intoxiliser worked. That visit will be recorded as a use of the system by the Medical Bureau of Road Safety. The figures cover all tests carried out on the machines, including demonstrations, refusals, failures and training. If this is discounted, there is a difference of 39 between the figures included in the Garda Síochána annual report for 2001 and the statistics of the Medical Bureau of Road Safety.

Deputy Shortall

I can see how the Garda statistics may be higher than those of the Medical Bureau of Road Safety. However, 6,488 evidential breath tests were recorded by gardaí, whereas the corresponding figure of the Medical Bureau of Road Safety was 1,200 higher. It is difficult to trust figures with such a wide variation.

Assistant Commissioner Rock

That is where the issue of evidential breath tests with the intoxiliser arises.

Deputy Shortall

How could the figure from the Medical Bureau of Road Safety be 1,200 higher than the Garda figure?

Assistant Commissioner Rock

The Medical Bureau of Road Safety records every use of the system, even if there is no arrest arising from use of the instrument.

The number of prosecutions continually creates misunderstandings and questions. I refer to the number of convictions for drink driving published in this year's Garda report. While the figures published in the annual report are accurate at the time of publication, I accept that they are not updated annually. On no particular day are the figures absolutely correct until all prosecutions have passed through the justice system. I refer to the number of convictions secured for offences committed in that year. That is what gives rise to confusion. The number of convictions constantly changes until such time as prosecutions are exhausted. Some prosecutions activated in 2003 are probably still active in the courts and the figure for the number of convictions will change again. The Commissioner's annual report is a photograph of time.

Deputy Shortall

I accept that. However, would it make more sense to update the figures for previous years? As Assistant Commissioner Rock stated, they do not remain static. However, they do remain static in the annual report.

Assistant Commissioner Rock

Yes, I am sure the Commissioner will give the matter consideration. Compiling the figures eats up resources. Having said that, I am sure it will be considered.

The Deputy's next question relates to drug driving, in respect of which people are prosecuted under section 49(1) which deals with intoxicants, including drugs and alcohol. The annual report states there were approximately 106 prosecutions for drug driving in 2005. However, it does not indicate whether prosecutions under section 49(1) are for drugs or liquor. We asked divisional officers for statistics to get a feel for what was happening. We were told approximately 100 cases were prosecuted for drug driving. As the Commissioner stated, it is prevalent in some District Court areas. Perhaps that is because of the attitudes adopted by certain persons in the courts. It is not as simple as dealing with intoxicating liquor as one cannot breach a limit for the amount of cannabis or cocaine in one's system. It comes down to the observations of the member of the Garda.

Deputy Shortall

I fully understand that. However, given the increase in the level of drug driving, does Assistant Commissioner Rock accept there is a need to record data separately? I understand the Courts Service does not record them separately. Should we move in that direction?

Assistant Commissioner Rock

I accept that and will take up the matter of their introduction to our computer system with our information technology staff. In an organisation such as ours which is spread across 700 stations we must get statistics from our central database. I have already spoken to somebody from the IT section on creating a specific field.

The road safety strategy envisages 11.1 million checks on vehicles, predicated on the roll-out of speed cameras. The outsourcing is at request for tenders stage. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is identifying a company to prepare our request for tender for the main contract. As it is a significant contract, we want to tread carefully with it.

Deputy Shortall

Is it possible to count the number of speed checks?

Assistant Commissioner Rock

We do not have a system or the technology that allows us to count every vehicle which comes through a speed check. The technology does not allow a GATSO vehicle on the side of a road or a garda with a laser gun to count every car as it goes through. Up to 20,000 cars may pass through in one hour. That is where other jurisdictions get their statistics from. Our statistics show the detection and prosecution figures for exceeding the speed limit, the figures that matter. We can argue about the necessity of seeing how many cars go through the speed check. If one wanted to massage the figures, one could easily do so. One could place a speed gun on an extremely busy road out of the city.

Deputy Shortall

The reason I ask is that a target of carrying out 11 million checks is set for the Garda in the road safety strategy——

Assistant Commissioner Rock

Absolutely.

Deputy Shortall

——and there is no way of measuring it. Will that information be available?

Assistant Commissioner Rock

When it has been outsourced, it most certainly will.

The next question is whether gardaí conduct speed checks on motorways and, if so, how many. Not many speed checks are conducted on motorways because they are the safest as is well recognised internationally. It is not necessary for us to concentrate specifically on motorways, although 256 speeding offences have been detected so far. I suppose it is a small number. I cannot state exactly how many checkpoints are set up and how many speed checks there are on motorways. The number of fixed charge notices issued on motorways gives an indication. However, we do not target significant resources at it.

The next matter I will deal with is the reason for the difference between the number of speed detections reported in the replies to parliamentary questions and the number of speeding fines issued. The figure of 211,928 was supplied to the Garda national traffic bureau by each divisional officer. Included in the detections are cautions, foreign registered vehicles and cases where the driver had a licence issued in another country. It also includes detections by fixed cameras where the image from the camera is indistinguishable and a fixed charge is not issued. This is where the camera does not pick up the registration number properly because of a dirty number plate, for example. The figure of 141,000 included in the annual report for 2004 refers to the actual number of speeding notices issued. I hope this information is of help.

Deputy Shortall

Approximately 70,000 in one year is a big gap between the number of detections and fines issued.

Assistant Commissioner Rock

Yes, it is.

Chairman

The problem is foreign drivers, including drivers from Northern Ireland and England.

Assistant Commissioner Rock

A large number of foreigners drive here and the tourism season is approaching. We cannot enforce our speeding legislation against a foreign driver. Such cases cannot be processed.

The next question is why, according to parliamentary replies, two Garda divisions did not conduct any roadside breath testing in 2004. The Commissioner has mentioned that a garda can make up his or her mind that a person is unfit to drive a mechanically propelled vehicle.

Deputy Shortall

Yes, but that does not account for the fact that in the two divisions of Dublin north-central and Dublin south not one roadside breath test was carried out in 2004. Compare that to Galway west where 1,200 tests were carried out. The numbers in all other divisions are in the hundreds. Surely, it must be a policy decision.

Assistant Commissioner Rock

A number of issues arise. I notice the Deputy refers to the number of pubs in the north inner city and the fact that the two divisions are small. If a garda sees a person coming out of a pub, he or she has a bona fide reasonably formed suspicion that the person concerned has just consumed alcohol. The courts, in cases stated, have dictated that in that situation we are obliged to wait 20 minutes before administering the breath test on the side of the road to allow for any residue of alcohol in the person's mouth to dissipate though the blood system. Many gardaí decide to exercise the power of arrest to bring a person to the intoxiliser without having to wait 20 minutes to administer the breath test. That is one of the reasons this issue is raised. The two divisions concerned are small. The number of arrests there for drink driving is not out of line with that of other divisions and in actual fact, there might——

Deputy Shortall

That does not explain it.

Chairman

We are running into a problem here.

Deputy Shortall

It is a legitimate question.

Chairman

I am not disputing the question's legitimacy but we have to vacate this room at 11.30 a.m. Another group is due to appear before the committee and three other members also wish to ask questions. I ask Deputy Shortall to allow Assistant Commissioner Rock to reply to the questions posed but if the Deputy seeks further clarification on any issues, I am sure the Assistant Commissioner will be glad to respond to a written question from her.

Assistant Commissioner Rock

In conclusion, there is no major divergence in the number of arrests for drink driving in those two divisions and other comparable divisions.

Deputies asked why there was an apparent reduction in the enforcement of speeding legislation since the introduction of penalty points, as judged by the number of fixed-charge fines issued. On 3 April, the fixed-charge processing system came into force nationwide. In the five weeks since its introduction, that is, up to 8 May, 24,749 offences have been detected by the Garda Síochána. This includes over 14,000 detections for speeding, 1,800 for the non-wearing of seat belts, 3,077 other penalty point offences and 5,118 non penalty point offences. The figures for speeding in respect of the years 2000 to 2002 include detection and instances of caution for foreign registered vehicles or where the driver has a driving licence issued in another country. The figures contained in the annual reports to 2003 are based on actual speeding notices issued.

The focus of Garda resources over the past 12 months has shifted to drink driving, which is evident from our statistics. During the last bank holiday weekend, approximately 320 people were arrested for drink driving. Our number one target is drink driving because it poses the greatest danger on our roads. We have shifted the focus of our resources to that area. If and when we get that problem under control and develop a compliance culture, we will focus more on speeding and dangerous driving. It is a question of allocating our resources to the areas of greatest need. We cannot, with fixed resources, improve on everything. Having said that, our resources are constantly increasing, as the Commissioner has said, and the operation due to take place today and tomorrow is a direct result of increased resources.

A number of statistical facts are collected on a CT68 form by gardaí after each road traffic collision, including the licence status of the driver and the roadworthiness test of vehicles. The question was posed as to why these statistics are not contained in the National Road Authority's annual road collision report. The Garda Síochána provides information regarding traffic collisions to the National Road Authority in the format of the CT68. This is an NRA form, compiled in consultation with the Garda Síochána. We have agreed with the NRA to review the form with a view to improving the capture of data, including forensic data. We have been somewhat weak in the area of forensic examination of accidents but we are training people in that area at divisional level. A request for tender is almost ready, which will allow us to obtain the top-quality, state of the art equipment necessary for forensic collision investigation across the entire spectrum of issues that arise, including for example the propensity to skid on a particular road surface.

Deputies asked what information gardaí will be able to access from hand-held devices at the roadside. That question has been addressed by the Commissioner. The devices were primarily developed as an aid to enforcement but driving licence information will be available.

Deputy Lowry

I do not think we give sufficient credit to gardaí for the unenviable job they do when they have to visit the scene of an accident. Road traffic collisions are a multi-faceted problem and a variety of skills and tact are needed to deal with them, including consoling victims, liaising with emergency services, talking to witnesses and so forth. More credit is due to the Garda Síochána, who do an excellent job.

The scene of an accident and its cause are enormously important in the prevention of further accidents. The gathering of data, training of gardaí and the provision of sufficient time for them to compile the information collected after an accident could prevent future loss of life. Information on the condition of the vehicle and the driving conditions on the road is important, as is whether there was speeding, alcohol or driver error involved in the collision. An accumulation of this kind of information will give us a better picture of the general trend with regard to the main causes of accidents and enable us to take effective preventative action. Statistical information is very important and should be prioritised in future reports, under the CT68 form system. Any improvement to that system, in co-operation with the NRA, will be welcome.

The quality and performance of cars has improved greatly in recent years but Garda cars have, if anything, disimproved. Recently I examined two Garda cars and found that one had 148,000 km on its clock, while the other had 126,000 km. Is the Commissioner satisfied with the number and standard of cars available to the force? What are the criteria for changing or replacing Garda cars? We know the criteria for changing ministerial cars, which happens regularly, but I have seen too many clapped out Garda vehicles with phenomenal mileage levels. It cannot be cost effective to maintain such vehicles. It is important that Garda vehicles are up to standard so that members of the force can react speedily to accidents, crimes and so forth.

Commissioner Conroy

Our forensic collision investigators have been involved for some time in improving the information included in the CT68 form. Generally speaking, there is a very good relationship between the Garda Síochána and local authorities, particularly the county engineers and those engineers dealing with road issues. If we determine there is a problem with a road surface or a particular bend in a road, our members write to the local authorities if they cannot get satisfaction from simply speaking to them. The issue is then on paper so that the local authority is aware that the Garda Síochána and the public have particular concerns. The problem may not be solved overnight but the information I have received from members of the force is that many local authorities are doing excellent work in trying to rectify situations where problems exist. We must all work hard to ensure that driving conditions are improved.

This year a sum of €14 million is available for the purchase of Garda cars. The Government purchasing body will invite tenders from suppliers, which will be forwarded to me. The AA will be involved and a decision will be made on the best value for money. The cars we buy are of the highest quality as far as safety is concerned. I am aware that we have cars which have clocked up 126,000 miles, but that is not excessive in a modern car, provided it is serviced regularly. Garda cars are serviced by the main dealers in the local districts and divisions where possible, ensuring that any work deemed necessary is done quickly. Some modern cars can travel 30,000 km before they require servicing. Mechanical performance is improving but we still have to take cars off the road when they develop defects. Every year, we try to improve the fleet, although I will not claim we can meet the requirements of every individual throughout the country. As members will appreciate, for example, the cars assigned to community policing would not be expected to pursue individuals involved in serious crime. That is not to say it could not happen, but it should not normally happen.

Chairman

How many cars are written off each year? The figure is probably higher than anyone would like.

Commissioner Conroy

The problem is particularly acute in cities, where three or four cars are sometimes lost in one night and where serious dangers are posed by ramming and other incidents. Losses in the recent past were relatively low until last Sunday, when a number of cars were lost. We have a stinger to stop the flight of individuals who have committed serious crimes but the level of traffic on our roads raises challenges to its use.

Chairman

Reports in the media this week suggest that the Garda's stingers are not capable of stopping HGVs because of the thickness of their tyres. Can the Commissioner clarify that matter?

Commissioner Conroy

We are conducting a study on the matter and will hopefully find the correct outcome. When we first received the stingers, traffic volumes were different. Even on minor roads, it is difficult to find a safe time to use a stinger because other road users must be considered.

Deputy P. Power

A number of my questions were anticipated by Deputies Shortall and Olivia Mitchell but I have further questions on the issue of drink driving and the new system of random breath testing. Is it not true that, when the new system comes into force, the age-old problem will remain of having to prove under cross-examination that the garda in question had formed an opinion by smelling the breath or observing the walk of the accused that alcohol had been taken? It can be very difficult to prove drunkenness in such situations and these problems will remain under the new regime. Is it the wish of the Garda Síochána that the law be formally changed to dispense with the onus on a garda to form the opinion that somebody has taken drink? It is either a crime for somebody to be above a certain blood alcohol percentage or it is not. Why should this extra and onerous requirement continue to exist if lawyers are able to drive a coach and four through it?

Regarding the increasing number of road fatalities and serious injuries since the beginning of the year, trends only become fully apparent over a long period. However, one trend is unmistakable, namely the numbers of non-nationals who have been killed on the roads. Clearly, the number of deaths is disproportionate to the numbers of non-nationals living in the country. I do not want to raise issues of race — quite the contrary — but people's lives are involved. Is that a concern for the Commissioner and, if so, what can be done to address the issue? Relevant factors include awareness and knowledge of the rules of the road. A number of accidents seem to occur during the early hours of the morning and involve people driving on the wrong side of the road or experiencing problems when overtaking.

Deputy Connaughton

I welcome the Commissioner and his colleagues and commend them on the professional manner with which they approach the issue of road safety. Do they sometimes feel that, regardless of what they attempt, the matter is out of hand? Given the numbers of terrible traffic accidents and fatalities, we have to accept the situation is deteriorating. Despite the range of attempts to address the problem, the figures look worse. It is a pity the general public did not have an opportunity to hear the Commissioner outline the Garda's efforts.

Further to Deputy Peter Power's comments, I am not a solicitor but predict the glorious 20 minutes which people are given after leaving the pub will become the most famous period of time in this country because people will find refuge in those minutes. We are all aware that the law must be implemented fairly, but a distinction must be made between the point of view of a garda who sees a person leaving a public house at 11.30 p.m. and a garda who sits outside the local church at noon on the following day. A person who has consumed alcohol will create havoc for the travelling public. Is it possible, through new legislation if required, to haul the offender aside and ask the court to recognise the test was failed or is that a simplistic solution?

My last question is for Superintendent O'Brien. When the Road Safety Authority Bill 2004 was before the Dáil, I asked the Minister if the force had a hand-held device for every garda who wanted one. Can he say how many such devices the force has? There is not much point in having a debate today if there is only a small supply of them, so that only one in ten gardaí have one. Can he give some indication of how far the programme has progressed?

Assistant Commissioner Rock

Hand-held units are designed and issued predominantly for gardaí involved in traffic enforcement. Because of their size — they are as heavy as the old mobile telephones — we cannot ask every garda on the beat to carry one. There are approximately 500 in the force. If a person requires one following, for example, a complaint from the public about a traffic violation on Middle Abbey Street, a station can be issued with one to be made available to a garda on the beat for the purposes of enforcement. They are used to record details and improve efficiency but they are not meant to be on general issue to every garda on duty.

Deputy Connaughton

Will they ever be?

Assistant Commissioner Rock

I do not think so, because they were never intended to be. There is no necessity for that. The garda has a notebook, which can be issued in the same way. The hand-held devices provide the technology whereby, as the Commissioner said, a garda can download information but their issue must be kept in proportion. It would not benefit a garda to be weighed down with a device for eight hours a day, in addition to his baton and radio walkie talkie.

Commissioner Conroy

There is a surplus of the devices in stations. Traffic gardaí have a consignment but they are not personally provided. When a garda takes over a shift from another he or she may take the unit. A number are kept in stations for patrol cars and the supply of these will be increased, but the individual garda on the beat would not come across many of the offences about which we have been talking.

Chairman

Could we allow the Commissioner to finish? Our time is limited.

Deputy Connaughton

Can he finish by dealing with the question I asked about the 20 minutes following closing time?

Commissioner Conroy

We would like to see major changes in the legislation requiring a garda to form an opinion that a person has been drinking. I have no doubt it creates a major problem for legislators but we will operate to the best of our ability whatever legislation is enacted. We have been involved in discussions with officials in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Department of Transport and they have taken on board our thoughts on the matter. We will implement whatever legislation is enacted on administrative disqualification.

Deputy P. Power

Has the Commissioner formally called for the dropping of the requirement for gardaí to form an opinion that a person has been drinking?

Commissioner Conroy

We have talked about it but I am not an expert on the subject.

Chairman

There may be operational questions with regard to the device.

Commissioner Conroy

Absolutely.

Deputy P. Power

The Commissioner is saying that the Garda will accept and enforce any legislation that is enacted. We as legislators need to know whether or not the Garda wants that requirement dropped. If it wants it dropped this committee would have a role to play in convincing the Minister and the Department. That is what today's meeting is about.

Commissioner Conroy

It would make our job of enforcing the law much easier. I know there are constitutional issues.

Chairman

There is a major constitutional issue.

Commissioner Conroy

We will accept what the legislators produce.

Deputy Power asked about fatalities among foreign nationals. So far this year there have been 31 deaths, of which 11 were drivers and 20 passengers. Foreign drivers have been involved in nine other fatal collisions where they escaped death themselves.

Chairman

Perhaps this is the wrong way of putting it but the Commissioner is saying that 40 out of 140 fatal accidents this year involved foreign nationals.

Commissioner Conroy

Yes. The total number of fatal collisions is 126 so it is a high percentage.

Chairman

It is a very high percentage. The public has drawn our attention to major problems at hospitals at the weekend. The Garda cannot deal with it until the law is changed to give it the necessary powers.

Commissioner Conroy

Assistant Commissioner Rock and his staff are involved in various initiatives to get the message through to those people. It involves getting them to change their culture and to live within the law as far as possible. I am not saying we have produced great results to date but we are working on it and hopefully, in time, their attitudes will change, particularly to alcohol at weekends.

Deputy O. Mitchell

I will ask a question on cases where penalty points have been applied in error. I do not refer to cases which have gone through the courts, because the courts are always right. Many solicitors have raised the question with me, because there have been a number of cases about the lacuna in the law arising from the conversion to metrication where many roads did not have the necessary by-law. If a person pays a fine and subsequently discovers the garda was wrong to issue the points, such as when a garda incorrectly thought a person was parked illegally, there does not seem to be any way of having the points removed from that person's file and driving licence. After I raised it with the Minister, I understand he raised it with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, who has now put in place a protocol to deal with it. It requires the signature of a superintendent or above. Has that been successful and have there been many such cases?

Superintendent O’Brien

If a mistake is made there is a process whereby penalty points can be removed. The information will come into the Garda national traffic bureau and we will communicate it, via the Department of Transport, to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.

Deputy O. Mitchell

From whom will the information come?

Superintendent O’Brien

From our members. If a mistake was made in issuing a fixed charge notice——

Deputy O. Mitchell

If I say a mistake was made, who will take up my case? Do I have to go directly to the Garda?

Superintendent O’Brien

Yes, we will examine it.

Deputy O. Mitchell

So it goes to the superintendent, rather than the local garda who issued the points.

Chairman

It is dealt with on a national level

Superintendent O’Brien

It will come in to the Garda national traffic bureau. I, as superintendent, have responsibility for the administration of Capel Street, which is our national processing centre.

Deputy O. Mitchell

It goes to the superintendent directly from me.

Superintendent O’Brien

Yes.

Deputy O. Mitchell

So I have direct access to him, rather than having to go through the garda that issued the charge?

Superintendent O’Brien

Yes.

Deputy O. Mitchell

Have there been many cases yet?

Superintendent O’Brien

I could not put an exact number on it. In the context of the total number of penalty points that have been applied, no.

Chairman

We will have to finish at 11.20 a.m.

Deputy Shortall

I will return to the accident report forms. We have not been able to get information showing the correlation between accidents and driver status, and the extent to which accidents involve provisional licence-holders as compared with those on a full licence. There is a provision on the form for recording that information but the NRA does not publish it. Is that information available somewhere? It would be interesting to know what percentage of people involved in fatal accidents were provisional drivers.

Superintendent O’Brien

A review is currently taking place of the amount of information on form CT68.

Chairman

That is being carried out in conjunction with Mr. Noel Brett and the National Safety Council. On our trip to Australia we discovered that their report form is so detailed that it probably gives a wealth of information regarding what needs to be done. This could include road alignment or surveillance. We take it the Garda will probably opt for one of those forms.

Commissioner Conroy

Yes.

Chairman

I thank Commissioner Conroy, Assistant Commissioner Rock and Superintendent O'Brien for their informative presentation and question and answer session before the joint committee. I apologise as we only have ten minutes for the next group, but time constraints exist even within these Houses.

In future we may arrange a review every three or four months with the delegation to see what is happening with regard to statistics. We must explain to the public that driver responsibility and public awareness are still the most important items with regard to preventing road accidents. Pedestrians and bicycle users are equally as important road users.

Sitting suspended at 11.21 a.m. and resumed at 11.22 p.m.