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JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT debate -
Wednesday, 12 Dec 2007

Scrutiny of EU Proposals: Discussion with Department of Transport.

The next item on the agenda is a discussion with John Weafer and officials from the Department of Transport regarding COM (2007) 264, a proposal for a regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council on common rules for access to the market for coach and bus services. The witnesses are very welcome. I wish to draw to their attention the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this does not apply to witnesses before the committee. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that Members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or any official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Members are also reminded that civil servants while giving evidence to a committee may not question or express an opinion on the merits of any Government policy or policy objectives or produce or send to a committee any document in which a civil servant or member of the Defence Forces or the Garda Síochána questions or expresses an opinion on the merits of any Government policy or policy objectives. I propose that Mr. Weafer should make a short presentation, to be followed by a question and answer session.

Mr. John Weafer

I thank the Chairman. I will begin by introducing myself and my colleagues and establishing our areas of responsibility. I am from the public transport regulation division of the Department of Transport, as are Miss Edwina O'Leary and Mr. Gerry Martin. We are accompanied by Mr. Micheál Ó Méalóid from the road transport operator licensing unit in Loughrea. His division is responsible for the operation of the community licensing system, the establishment of the national register of Community licence holders and the proposals relating to mutual assistance. The responsibility of the public transport regulation division relates to the issue of authorisations for specific groups and cabotage. We have presented to the committee a three-page document which we hope is reasonably succinct and informative. I can go through that document, if the Chairman wishes.

Please give us a summary of it.

Mr. John Weafer

The document was published in May this year but it has not been pursued in Brussels since then. There have been no developments since the proposal was originally presented. We have set out the current regulatory position and concentrated mainly on the authorisation provisions, which impact on particular routes both here and abroad.

In overall terms, the main benefits from this proposal if pursued by the European Union are concentrated on the Community licensing provisions. There will be a new standard Community licence containing a unique serial number which will be of great assistance in terms of security and of limiting potential fraud. The second issue is authorisations relating to documents. Under the current regime, amendments to documents have to be provided for in regulations. This proposal would see these being dealt with by a committee referred to in the proposed regulation. The first major change in terms of authorisations relates to the grounds for refusal. It is proposed that the only ground for refusal from a market basis would be the potential effect on an existing service which attracts a public service obligation. The existing reasons for refusal from a good repute perspective remain unchanged.

One of the problems with the administration of the current system is that in respect of all applications which transit a state, irrespective of whether a service actually stops in that state to pick up or set down passengers, we must get the approval of that state. The proposal currently before us would provide that approval would only be required where the service actually does pick up or set down passengers in transit states. In the case of a service from Dublin to Poland which does stop en route, it would be necessary only to obtain the approval of both authorities.

One of the proposals which could have very significant implications for our current national market relates to cabotage. Cabotage is the system whereby an operator from one state is allowed to pick up and set down passengers in another state. Such an operator would be competing on a route with an indigenous operator. The proposal does not make it clear whether the idea of cabotage is being pursued on a permanent basis. We will seek clarification on that. However, its impact on our national market is something which concerns us.

One of the main problems in the current regime, particularly with regard to community licensing but also with regard to the authorisation system, is the question of potential enforcement. This proposal contains provisions for the establishment of national electronic registers and is a significant improvement in the current mutual recognition provisions. We welcome the proposals for the simplification of the administration of the community licensing and authorisation systems. A system like this, which is less bureaucratic, more orientated towards the user and easier to pursue means a potential road safety gain. The degree to which people are approved, the speed at which they are approved and the enforcement provisions will mean fewer people operating without licences.

We have concerns about the cabotage proposals because they are confusing. If cabotage is to be applied on a permanent basis, we will have to engage with operators in Ireland to seek their views so that we can present a coherent case in Europe. We welcome the mutual assistance provisions. They will assist in better enforcement across the Community.

On the question of refusals of licence applications, the new proposal is confusing. The only ground for refusing, from a market perspective, is that a service would impact on an existing service to which we apply a public service obligation. It also seems to suggest that where we have already made decisions on cases on the basis of existing criteria, the new criteria may have to be applied. There might be cases where we have refused applications on the ground that a service already existed and the degree to which the proposed service would affect it. These are issues on which clarification will be sought when the proposal is being pursued by the Presidency. The proposals were published in May of this year and the Portuguese Presidency has not dealt with the matter. We await the outcome of the Slovenian or French Presidencies later this year.

I invite members to ask questions on this issue. This is a specific issue and I will not allow the debate to ramble into other areas.

Why is so much of the text of the legislation crossed out? Does the Department of Transport seriously expect this measure to be brought forward? Has consultation been held with our own coach operators?

Mr. Weafer referred to Community licences. Could an Irish company, such as one of those operating routes between Ireland and Poland, do cabotage in the United Kingdom, for example? Looking at the legislation from a positive perspective, do opportunities exist for Irish coach companies to do as Ryanair has done and become big operators in Europe?

Mr. John Weafer

The paper we presented to members takes the existing regulation and shows the elements of it which will be removed under the new proposal. That is why the text is twice as long as it might be.

We have approved no proposals for cabotage into Ireland. There is the potential for Irish operators to provide cabotage services abroad if this proposal is pursued. Member states may disagree on whether or not approval should be given. This rarely arises at present because existing cabotage services do not impact on national services. The Commission could have a significant input into decisions on this issue because where there is disagreement between member states it has the final say. While this issue has not been debated, two parallel proposals are being pursued at present. One relates to authorisation for the haulage industry. That has developed to some extent. I understand from Mr. Micheál Ó Méalóid that proposals for limited cabotage have already been viewed negatively by member states.

With regard to consultation, we wrote to all organisations some time ago but we have had no response. This may be because the matter has not been pursued. We propose to do this early in the new year.

The intent of this measure is to increase service for consumers and give them greater choice. From that perspective, it is very welcome. As Deputy Broughan has said, it will allow Irish people to operate in European fields which are not currently available to them. It will equally be open to others to come into Ireland.

I am concerned about the question of safety and the condition of vehicles. What safety standards will apply to vehicles? We often hear that the condition of buses from, for example, eastern Europe is not acceptable because of their age. How will this matter be regulated? An operator may hold a licence while his bus may not meet Irish or European safety standards.

Are there unlicensed operators in this field?

I thank Mr. Weafer for his presentation.

I have three questions for him. First, how will these measures affect the service offered to a passenger or user of a bus or haulage service in Ireland? Second, why is the measure being delayed and why has it not been implemented? Third, notwithstanding the lack of response from stakeholders in Ireland, does this measure represent a commercial or business opportunity for businesses located in Ireland to provide services outside Ireland?

Mr. John Weafer

My colleague, Mr. Micheál Ó Méalóid, will address the question of vehicle safety.

Mr. Micheál Ó Méalóid

The Road Safety Authority and the Garda are responsible for ensuring the safety of vehicles on Irish roads. The Road Safety Authority, with the Garda traffic corps, operates random and targeted checkpoints endeavouring to catch vehicles which are operating unsafely. This includes foreign vehicles. The mutual assistance provisions in this proposal would help greatly in that, as will the national electronic register. This proposal is that every member state should create a database to include details on operators and infringements of a range of rules and laws including safety, drivers' hours and vehicle safety. This would mean the Irish authorities, primarily the Road Safety Authority and the Garda Síochána, would be able to dip into the electronic registers of other member states, see which operators have the worst records, and target checkpoints at them.

Mr. Ó Méalóid has not answered my question, although I appreciate what he is saying. Are there benchmark safety standards that every coach must meet regardless of country of origin?

Mr. Micheál Ó Méalóid

Yes, there are European rules and regulations on all these matters.

Are they standard?

Mr. Micheál Ó Méalóid

Yes, and they are enforced in Ireland by the RSA and the system of Community roadworthiness testing.

Is Mr. Ó Méalóid aware of any unlicensed operators?

Mr. Micheál Ó Méalóid

On the Community licence side there are some. It is difficult to estimate how many because they do not tell us they are unlicensed.

That is the key question because there may be vehicles in the country that do not meet the standards. I am concerned about this. How does one deal with it? Is it sufficient to leave it to the operators? I do not doubt their integrity and professionalism, but we should be able to ensure they are licensed and there must be a better way to do it.

Mr. John Weafer

Under the current regime all vehicles that have a Community licence must display it in the vehicle. This includes all vehicles that provide services from any EU country. Our vehicles going abroad must display this. That is a starting point for good enforcement. However, the fact that the mutual assistance provisions proposed here are vastly improved on our current situation will mean a better range of information will go automatically between the member states. This will make it easier for member states to keep a watching brief on operations in their own countries and because registration can be deployed on an European basis, one could have targeted enforcement by a number of states over particular periods or target particular types of services.

I accept what Mr. Weafer is saying. My concern is that cowboy operators might be getting away with it. When the Department has become aware of unlicensed operators, have court cases been initiated or what process, if any, has been followed?

Mr. Micheál Ó Méalóid

The RSA is responsible for the enforcement of the licensing rules.

However, the Department identifies whether operators are licensed.

Mr. Micheál Ó Méalóid

The RSA has a hotline—

When the Department believes an operator is unlicensed, what does it do?

Mr. Micheál Ó Méalóid

We have regular contact with the RSA on all these issues. The RSA has a hotline which members of the public can contact if they think an operator is illegal.

How many has the Department been made aware of? This is a critical question.

Mr. Micheál Ó Méalóid

I could not put a figure on it.

Mr. Ó Méalóid said he was aware of some.

Mr. Micheál Ó Méalóid

We are aware they exist, but we do not have numbers because they do not tell us they are operating illegally. Figures I have heard from the RSA's transport office suggest approximately 20% of the market could be illegal.

That is a serious issue.

Could Mr. Weafer address Senator Donohoe's questions?

Mr. John Weafer

If this goes through and cabotage is introduced, it will give passengers greater options for going abroad. It would open up options here because it could bring potential additional operators on routes where we currently have only State companies or private sector licensed operators.

On the reason it is being delayed, each Presidency chooses what it thinks it can progress. This industry is significantly well-controlled in different ways across member states. Certain member states would like to see this developing slowly. This proposal was produced in May, was on the table of the outgoing Presidency in June but was not regarded as a priority. Two sister proposals are running with this. Mr. Ó Méalóid is involved with one of them, which deals with access to the trade or the occupation. That has been significantly developed, but this proposal has not, nor has the third proposal, which relates to the haulage industry. Many countries would see this as too liberal.

As we mentioned in this presentation, there are issues in this text. The text is unclear and contradicts itself on cabotage. That is an important issue. There is a lack of clarity on reasons we can refuse people access.

The third point raised was the lack of response from stakeholders. Has Ireland issued 70 licences?

Ms Edwina O’Leary

Ireland has issued 48 licences and 27 come into Ireland.

Mr. John Weafer

In addition to the connections with Northern Ireland, operations come from as far as Poland and Slovakia. There is potential there. That potential is focused on the Border and it is a matter for the Northern administration to come to us if it sees potential in this. If one removed the cabotage proposal, which may not be there as we think it is, with the exception of the fact that there will be better enforcement and a simpler administrative system, there may be little benefit. It gives little additional encouragement for operators to get involved in this market.

I am conscious of the time constraints. I have one question on the licensing of substandard operators and insurance. I refer particularly to eastern European countries that have less comprehensive legal requirements on insurance. How do we deal with that? I am conscious of it in both directions. If an Irish bus travelling to Poland and going through eastern European countries is hit by a local vehicle, what are the insurance implications? In the reverse situation, if a Slovakian operator comes here—

Why does Mr. Ó Méalóid estimate that 20% of bus operators may not be regulated? Is it ignorance of regulations or, worse, that they do not have the proper standard of vehicle or insurance? Is there a reason or is it just difficult to get to people?

Mr. Micheál Ó Méalóid

The figure is based on conversations I have had with transport officers in the RSA. I asked them about the figure for road haulage, as I was interested in that at the time. They estimated at the time that the figure might be around 30% for road haulage and I figured that this might be somewhat lower for passengers because there are more international operators in road haulage than on the passenger side. There tends to be a correlation between compliance with the law and international travel.

The figure is at this level because people know that to get a licence we check their tax and insurance, that their vehicles have various forms of documentation, their tachograph machines are working and so on. We check these things before we grant a licence allowing people to legally access the market. Some operators may find that the bar has been set too high for them so they simply operate illegally. It is only fair to say that the Road Safety Authority has doubled the number of transport officers it has from nine to around 18. The establishment of the Road Safety Authority was a significant measure because it has a stringent focus on safety and it can concentrate on catching people driving without licences. One suspects that those without licences may be driving unsafe vehicles with faulty brakes and so on. We consult with the Road Safety Authority regularly — I am based in the same building as the authority in Loughrea.

The provision we are discussing will greatly assist enforcement around Europe. For example, if a Polish carrier operating in Ireland was stopped without having taken rest in an unsafe vehicle with bald tyres he would be issued with a summons and allowed to drive on. He could then tear up the summons, we would never see him again and there would be no ramifications for him in Poland. This provisions means there will be ramifications at home. If he has convictions, sanctions or infringements in Ireland or failed to attend court we can tell the Polish authorities and they can take additional measures in Poland. The same applies to Irish hauliers abroad. This should mean that hauliers and passenger operators throughout the EU will feel these provisions bite because they are no longer safe outside their own jurisdictions. Anything that happens to hauliers and passenger operators abroad will follow them home so when they seek to be re-licenced or increase their fleets there will be ramifications in their home countries.

Mr. John Weafer

The issue of insurance raised by Deputy Kennedy falls into the same area; one tends to find that a person without a licence does not hold insurance while a person who holds a licence holds insurance also. This facility will give us a framework for enforcement across the board on licensing operations and safety issues. Insurance is a safety issue and is something we will be better able to deal with when this begins.

There is commonality of coverage between states. I suspect the eastern Europeans do not have the same level of liability cover as we have here. Has this been considered?

Mr. John Weafer

Not in terms of this proposal.

Under what guise would this be addressed?

Mr. John Weafer

The level of cover would be something for the EU to pursue.

Is it the case that this only applies to what is agreed by the Ministers? Could this take two or three years?

Mr. John Weafer

Yes.

This is a very important matter and I acknowledge the points and respect the professionalism of the people involved but perhaps the Road Safety Authority should come before this committee as soon as possible to address this issue. I am glad that those involved have been frank and open about the reality of this because there is a fear that a serious accident could occur involving vehicles carrying many people. This is a critical issue that should go on top of the agenda.

We will send the regulation back to the EU. I thank the witnesses for their presentation and clear explanations.

Sitting suspended at 4.35 p.m. and resumed at 4.37 p.m.
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