JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT debate - Wednesday, 12 Dec 2007

Public Transport: Discussion with Dublin Bus.

Chairman

I welcome from Dublin Bus Mr. Joe Meagher, chief executive, Mr. Gerry Maguire, human resources manager, and Mr. Paddy Doherty, business development manager.

Before I invite Mr. Meagher to make a presentation on the development plans for Dublin Bus I wish to reflect the general view of the committee by pointing out that significant progress has been made in terms of bus transportation in Dublin in recent times. Dublin Bus is to be congratulated on the progress that has been made and the developments that have taken place.

Dublin Bus and the unions are to be congratulated on the fact that there has only been one strike in around 13 years, with the exception of the most recent strike. This is a great development from how things were previously and we should acknowledge that there is now a good partnership arrangement between Dublin Bus management and unions as this is why we now enjoy a welcome climate of good industrial relations.

The objective of this committee is to see the development of bus transport in all five cities as rapidly and efficiently as possible. Our objective is also to see a vibrant, growing Dublin Bus. At this committee yesterday the Minister mentioned the need for radical and innovative change in Dublin's public transport. We added that this is urgent so in Mr. Meagher's presentation we would like to hear of the urgency with which developments are being approached.

It is my personal objective that this committee should agree to recommend to the Minister that Dublin have at least 350 extra buses on its streets within two years. This is a significant challenge but if we are to deal with gridlock and the major development work that is to take place in the city in the coming years it is essential that we see this type of increase so buses can run faster and more frequently. In that context, the representatives are welcome to make their presentation.

Mr. Joe Meagher

I thank the Chairman and the committee for the invitation. We are very pleased to attend and talk to the committee about Dublin Bus and its plans within the context of Transport 21. Much attention is given to the very good and ambitious rail-based plans, be they Iarnród Éireann, metro or Luas, while the bus services receive less attention. Many of the rail-based plans will be delivered, but in the later stages of the Transport 21 period. If there are to be major improvements in public transport in the earlier part, it will come down to buses. It is in that context that we put together this short presentation. We could have made it much longer but we decided to try to keep it short and sharp and then have more time for discussion. If it is all right with the committee I will begin.

What are the key elements of Transport 21 with regard to the bus service? One is the expansion of the quality bus corridor network. Our plans are based on the enhancement of this network, which means putting more priority on key corridors and ensuring greater frequency of buses. This is a combination that has been shown to work in certain corridors, particularly the Stillorgan corridor. I will show some statistics on the success of this later. This is the way forward in the immediate future, entailing more frequency, more reliability and better journey times. In detail, we are talking about doubling the length of the QBC network and achieving high frequency and high reliability.

What progress has been made since Transport 21 was announced? A review of our entire network was carried out by independent experts working together with us. The conclusion was that more direct routes, cross-city routes and orbital services should be introduced, but in the context of greater priority so that there can be freer flow. The document stated that a total of about 425 buses should be added over a period of five years. To date we have 105 additional buses in service and I will give more detail on these shortly. We are also progressing the bus priorities.

There are some interesting developments among the 105 additional buses that have been introduced to date. The new 151 QBC service from south Clondalkin is a very good route with good priority. It was introduced earlier this year and the take-up has been very promising. A new service from north Wicklow to the city centre on a QBC has also been introduced. There are new services from Knocklyon and Ballycullen, the latter of which is a developing area which previously did not have a good public transport service. We have introduced enhanced services to this destination. There is a service from Ballymun to Blackrock using the Rock Road priority and linking DCU with a whole new catchment area.

A new service from Clongriffin to Rathmines, which was the subject of some publicity due to the dispute at Harristown, is now operational. Something we are trying to achieve across the city, which applies to this service, is to get in early to new developments. This route will be serving the Clongriffin north fringe area. There will be a population of 25,000 in this area by 2010. We have done a lot of work with the QBN office with regard to priorities on the Malahide Road, particularly this year, which has improved the journey time considerably. Now we have a service with good priority, which will be improving even more over the next year, from a newly developing area. The idea is to get in early so that when people are moving in there is already a public transport option in place. This route will not carry big numbers immediately but it is a major investment for the future. This is something we want to continue.

We have also established additional departures from a number of other areas, including Leixlip, Swords, Blanchardstown, Stepaside, Finglas, Tallaght and Malahide. These extend right across the city. Much progress has been made in enhancing the service this year in particular but also last year. However, there is of course a lot more to be done.

In the matter of bus priority, there is currently good co-operation between the local authorities, the DTO, the QBN office and Dublin Bus. Last year we agreed a rolling two-year programme through 2007 and 2008, with particular areas being targeted. Decent progress has been made this year, and some good priorities have been opened. People will be aware of the priorities on the north quays, which was facilitated by the opening of the Dublin Port tunnel, in Drumcondra, on the Malahide Road, as I mentioned earlier, and in Ringsend. These are good new measures and we are currently reaping the rewards. There is of course a lot more to be done, and we intend to continue working on this.

We are currently in the throes of finalising with the QBN office a new rolling programme which will take us through 2008 and 2009 and into 2010. The objective is to consider all the major corridors in terms of average speeds, and we have a target to get the average speeds up to 18km/h to 20 km/h generally and 15 km/h at some of the pinch points. Congestion is a major problem that must be tackled. There are large variations in journey time on certain routes. A particular service can take 60 minutes on one evening and 90 minutes on another evening. That is quite common, morning and evening, and makes it difficult to schedule arrival efficiently. This is a problem that must be tackled across the city. I apologise that this did not appear on the presentation.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

We have it on our handouts.

Mr. Joe Meagher

I did not realise the members had already received the handout.

The city centre is another important area because there are some critical issues to be faced, particularly over the next three to five years. Although we have the Luas and all the rail services coming in from various places, more than 70% of all public transport commuters during the morning peak travel into the city centre by bus. Thus, the bus is the workhorse of public transport at this time, which will not change. We have 100 million customers annually who start or finish their journeys in the city centre or travel through it. These are large numbers. We must improve city centre speeds.

A number of major projects are to take place over the next few years, including the construction of the metro north, which is a very important project, and the rail interconnector linking Heuston Station to the Docklands to give more rail capacity on the various lines. The construction of these projects will be a major issue. We are working with the agencies to develop a plan that will enable continued movement through the city centre. The bus will be the medium for that. We will be dependent on the bus and we must find routes through the city centre with continued bus priority to ensure reliability in terms of journey speeds through the city centre.

Members will see from the hand-out that regarding the 46A route — the graphics do not come up on the screen — there is much publicity about the success of the Stillorgan corridor. It has been very successful. In the late 1990s, across Leeson Street Bridge, approximately 20% of commuters travelled by bus and 80% by car. Now, approximately 55% travel by bus and 45% by car, which indicates the switch that occurs with good priority. We have excellent priority between St. Stephen's Green and Foxrock church and decent priority on to Dún Laoghaire. We can achieve good average speeds of 20 km/h in those areas. The crux is the city centre where average speeds can be as low as 5 km/h, a difficulty we must overcome.

Our view of the way the city centre should be dealt with is that we should have a plan that will give continuous priority to bus services on three different corridors through the central area. That will mean taking some difficult decisions and dealing with issues of access of cars, etc., because we cannot continue the way we are going at present. There is limited street space and demands from various interests to use that street space but if we are to get maximum value for the people of Dublin, we must give priority to the bus and have corridors with continuous priority through the central area.

Regarding the impact of quality bus corridors on commuters, the screen does not show that very well but it is an interesting slide. I refer to nine QBCs, some of which are not the best in terms of average speeds due to many traffic problems, but we have moved from a divide of 60% by car, 40% by bus to almost 60% by bus, 40% by car. The movement is much more significant on the better priority corridors but it indicates that a modal shift from car to bus can be achieved if an excellent service is provided, with good priority, frequency and reliability, so that if people go to wait for a bus they know what time it will arrive or, if they have just missed one, they know they will not be waiting long for another. That is the key. We believe we can increase that figure further, with the programme we have in mind, to close to a divide of 70% by bus, 30% by car on the corridors where there is good priority. That would be a major achievement and it can be done with the implementation of good priorities, higher frequency and more buses.

In terms of cost effectiveness, the capital cost of investing in buses is low compared with the other modes. That must be highlighted. We reckon that the cost of additional buses and bus enhancements, by that I mean priorities, real-time passenger information, etc., will be approximately €80 million a year over the next five years but as the Chairman said, that can be pulled back to front-load it somewhat.

The second point on the cost effectiveness of Dublin Bus, and there has been much publicity about this from time to time, is that the subvention level to Dublin Bus is one of the lowest in Europe. We have a slide that shows a UITP analysis of the subvention level in the various cities. We have highlighted some figures compared with London. London's system is franchised out to a number of private operators. We compared the tender prices this year per kilometre with our cost of operating and we compare favourably. Comparing like with like, we estimate that the cost per customer in London is 53 cent and the cost per customer in Dublin is 48 cent.

The next item — members may wish to refer to the hand-out — shows the level of PSO by city. It is related to a number of issues, including fare levels, etc. Our fare levels in Dublin are not high by any means. We have one of the lowest speeds in Europe in terms of average speeds. That goes against us but we do quite well in terms of cost effectiveness and the level of subsidy that must be paid.

Regarding the key issues that will arise in future years, one of those is to phase in 300 more buses in the next five years. The Chairman said we should try to do it in the next two years. We would be happy to work to fast-track the implementation of additional buses to get more benefit for customers. Continuing to implement the priorities to achieve higher speeds is crucial. We have a good programme in place at this stage. We must continue with that and tackle the difficult areas that will arise. We are planning to achieve a fully accessible fleet by 2012. We are at the stage where two-thirds of our fleet is fully accessible and with the replacement programme those buses that are not accessible will be replaced in the next five years.

It is not included in the slide but we are also improving the levels of emissions from our buses. All our new buses are to Euro 4 standard. The levels of emissions are reduced enormously. The carbon monoxide emissions now are approximately 13% of the emissions on buses 15 or 20 years ago. We are also planning to bring in a hybrid bus and putting it on trial. We expect that will be in operation by the middle of next year.

We are implementing a real-time passenger information system, the first leg of which is to put in an automatic vehicle location system which will be very helpful to us in terms of controlling routes in the difficult environment in which we operate. The follow-on is real-time passenger information. Our target is to have that fully in place by 2010, with real-time information at 1,000 bus stops throughout Dublin city and available on text messaging for all routes.

The system launch for the implementation of integrated ticketing, Smartcard, is targeted for September 2009. We will introduce our interim Smartcard through the first half of next year. We have signed a contract with our supplier, Wayfarer, for the development of the software to enable the fully integrated card and are working closely with the integrated ticketing project board to ensure that is delivered across the city. We are playing our part in that regard.

I have outlined a number of positive developments. In the next few years the integrated ticketing card system should be in place and also the real-time passenger information system. We will have a fully accessible fleet, many more priorities along the key corridors and higher frequency. We will have a strong product for our customers if we work hard on those elements.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

I welcome Mr. Joe Meagher, chief executive of Dublin Bus. I met him in a previous capacity when he was with Iarnród Éireann and found him to be an effective, efficient and communicative operator. We had many meetings, and one or two disagreements, but he is fully committed to public transport. I acknowledge also his management team and the help of Ms Cliona Ní Fhatharta on the work and the information exchange, which is first class, particularly when there is a crisis brought on by unofficial union action.

The consumer is king in this business and the commuter must travel on buses if we are to be effective and efficient. I concur with Mr. Meagher's views. Buses must have priority at key traffic intersections on the routes Mr. Meagher highlighted. That is critical to the future of Dublin Bus.

The public service obligation on the company is an issue with the European Union. I note from a document I have — the detail of which I will not go into, as to do so would delay the meeting — that the Coach Tourism and Transport Council of Ireland has complained about the operation of Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus. At the core of this issue is the delivery of a better service and more facilities for computers. I am happy with what the company is doing, but I would like more routes to be opened up to competition and for consumers to have more choice.

The commentary from the Minister's office at the time he received a briefing on Dublin Bus indicates that when a private operator wanted to travel through the port tunnel, Dublin Bus decided it wanted to do so as well. I will not go into the detail of the commentary, but I have it if Mr. Meagher wishes to check it. The key issue is that when initiatives are introduced by the private sector, the attitude of those in Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann, of which Mr. Meagher is the CEO, seems to be that they should also be engaged in them. However, because of the way the 1932 Act and the 1958 Act are framed, the Department of Transport decides which operator gets to be first one to serve that route and delays result and so on.

Can the company be more transparent in the delivery of its PSO? What routes are covered by its PSO and what routes are not? In other words, what routes could be opened up to competition? Clearly, the company provides a good public service on routes under the PSO, about which I am not quibbling, but one of the issues is which routes could be opened up to competition.

My second question concerns the new communities around the city. What was once the greater Dublin area now extends into counties Louth, Meath and almost Westmeath. What is the company doing to meet the transport needs of commuters in those areas?

Deputy Michael Kennedy

I welcome Mr. Meagher and his colleagues. While Dublin Bus has made improvements, the Fianna Fáil slogan of "A lot done, more to do" applies to what needs to be done. As one who represents Dublin North, I envy Dublin South and north Wicklow, which are served by the majority of the 105 buses that came on stream, notwithstanding that those areas are served by the DART, Luas and had a reasonably good service prior to these additional buses coming on stream. I highlight that point in the context that the Dublin North region is the fastest growing populated area in Europe and not only in Dublin. I make the case for the provision of additional services for the entire Dublin North region.

With the objective of trying to provide a better service, I ask the members of the delegation why Dublin Bus does not buy into the park and ride scenario. I realise the issue involved is broader than such a facility and we have discussed it on many occasions, but if Dublin Bus was to come up with solutions, many people would leave their cars at home and travel to and from work by bus.

In regard to the provision of nipper bus services in populated estates that currently do not have a bus service, I instance the major developing areas of Bunbury and Applewood in northwest Swords where there is no service. A bus service passes through the areas of Boroimhe and Ridgewood in south Swords but the buses tend to be full when they leave Swords village. I am sure Mr. Doherty would be well aware of that.

When can we expect the amalgamation of the 102 and 230 bus services to occur? It would allow for a service from Dublin Airport to Swords, Malahide, Portmarnock and on to Sutton DART Station. How can the numbers on the 142 bus service be boosted? Not many passengers travel on that route from Portmarnock to Malahide and into Swords. I have observed that very few people travel on that bus service at 8 a.m., although at other times more people might use it.

Is it possible for Dublin Bus to increase the number of staff operating nipper bus services and the new service operating in the Clongriffen area, which by Mr. Meagher's admission is not widely used because the area is not hugely populated, although it will be in the future? Surely the provision of a nipper bus service covering Skerries, Rush, Lusk and Swords would result in all seats being occupied on buses and increased commuter satisfaction.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

From my dealings with Dublin Bus in the past year or so representing the constituency of Dublin North, I must commend it on information it has provided locally. I wish to follow up on one or two points made by Deputy Kennedy. Extensive work has been done on the QBC on the Malahide Road. How many buses and bus routes use that bus corridor? I would like it to be developed to the level of the bus corridor on the Stillorgan Road. The point that improvements in services have been made at a faster pace on the south side compared to the north side is valid.

Approximately how many buses operate on routes at off peak hours? Constituents tell me that many buses and trains operate at peak hours but there appears to be long gaps between buses operating at off peak hours. Has Dublin Bus any plans to provide a better service at off peak hours, given the diversity of people's lives and work and that their work day is not as restricted to 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. as it was several years ago?

Mr. Meagher mentioned Transport 21 and many of these services flow from it. Under that programme, a designated park and ride site is to be provided at Lissenhall, at the Lissenhall interchange at Donabate, which would facilitate parking for thousands of cars. It was originally intended as a parking facility for Metro North. If the Government gave the go ahead for the establishment of that park and ride facility or a portion of it prior to Metro North coming on stream, would Dublin Bus examine servicing a park and ride bus service from that location? I pose that question for two reasons, one is the proximity of that site to north Swords, Donabate, Portrane, the surrounding areas and the port tunnel, which was mentioned earlier. The 142 bus service was also mentioned. It is a good service, on which I have travelled, but it needs to be expanded, and I hope it will be. Will the company examine using that proposed park and ride facility?

With regard to the port tunnel, the 142 bus service is in place. The port tunnel is an asset; it is a fantastic route to enable people to be transported quickly into the city. What other plans has Dublin Bus to introduce additional services on that route? The port tunnel is a route by which people living in areas surrounding it including Kinsealy and Swords, which is the fastest growing town in Europe, can be brought into the city quickly.

Mr. Joe Meagher

As regards new communities, we agree fully. Our objective is to try to do that, rather than being in late as has happened in the past due to lack of finance. I instanced new developments such as the one on the north fringe and the Clongriffen one. As part of the 100 buses, we deliberately allocated a number there, even though it is a newly developing area. We have a ten-minute frequency on it and it is there for people to use as they move in. We think that is the right way forward.

As regards the north side rather than the south side, I accept the point made by Deputy Kennedy. We had ambitious plans for Swords and have just chatted about that. The next two areas due to be served are Finglas and Balbriggan. We also put in services from Portmarnock and Malahide.

February is the target implementation date for the 103 and 230 park and ride facility. We will look at any park and ride possibilities. At the moment our focus is to get more priority and frequency on the key quality bus corridors. Ideally, we would like to have parking facilities along the quality bus corridors so people will benefit from them. We will look at any specific park and ride facilities. The conventional wisdom is that such facilities work best in smaller cities with fairly short turnaround journey times. When more than three buses are involved in a park and ride facility — whether they are privately or publicly operated really does not matter — the finances start to get difficult and one is into a subsidy situation. In smaller cities where the turnaround time between loading, unloading and getting back out, is about 25 minutes, one can get a ten-minute frequency with three buses. If one is further out and there is a much longer turnaround time, it can be done successfully but it will cost money. Finding property is difficult because it is expensive, but there are some instances where there are suitable car parks along QBC routes. They seem to work extremely well.

We have certain commercial products, about which we have been very open. Airlink and the day tours are commercial products. We get a PSO for two reasons. One is to provide a service to what we call "mature areas" where there is not a heavy level of demand but where, for community and social reasons, there is a need for a service seven days per week throughout the day. The second is to provide peak services on busy corridors. If one takes a route such as the famous 46A — this applies to a number of corridors — it takes approximately 22 buses to provide what I call a "basic service" throughout the day, Monday through to Sunday. That service does very well but we add approximately 26 additional buses to cover the peak demand to move people from cars to buses. Those buses are used at peak times, so obviously one does not get many journeys out of them. Therefore, they require PSO payment. When one takes the two together, one is into a PSO. However, when one breaks it up, one is into the basic service.

Anyone can operate a basic service throughout the day on a busy corridor and do quite well out of it but in the business of transporting people in Dublin, that is not what it is about because on a route corridor like that, effectively, one must double the number of buses at peak times to deal with demand and not leave people at bus stops. That requires a PSO.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

I accept what Mr. Meagher said. The complaint is that people might be able to tender for other routes if Dublin Bus was more transparent about its PSO routes. That is the query being raised in Europe. The Government must respond to that.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Is it not the case that some routes are PSO routes later in the evening? For example, the Finglas routes are PSO. That is the problem. I understand the private operator through the tunnel stopped his service at 8.30 p.m.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

The question arises because of the Government's policy to liberalise the bus market and open it up to competition. Commentators are talking about 25% of it. The ESRI and others have said they need more information from Dublin Bus on this issue.

Chairman

I refer to the Luas. In off-peak periods, there are seven minute intervals and significant load capacity. Surely, on those more significant routes, there must be the potential to increase the service off-peak, as Deputy Darragh O'Brien has said. If there is a good service off-peak, then people will use it. Yesterday on my way to Dublin, I hit the traffic at the Spa Hotel in Lucan at 9.55 a.m. I arrived at O'Connell Bridge at 11 a.m. and only four Dublin Bus buses passed me by on what is a new QBC. Perhaps Mr. Meagher will respond to that.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I welcome Mr. Meagher and the team from Dublin Bus. Without getting into a big philosophical debate, my view is represented by the ESRI report of late 2005 which states that the experience from abroad strongly suggests the franchising of bus operations under transport authority will reduce patronage, increase public subsidies and replace a monopoly public operator with private oligopolists. That sums up where I and the Labour Party come from.

I refer to the Dublin transportation authority. I assume that late some Sunday after Christmas, when the Dáil in not in session and it is hard for the Opposition to respond, the Minister will present us with this Bill because that is his modus operandi. Has Dublin Bus been consulted much about the DTA?

I refer to the expenditure review with which we were presented. Was Dublin Bus disappointed with the terms of reference of that? I note Dublin Bus said it has one of the lowest levels of subvention in Europe. In Milan, subvention is 63% of revenue, in Brussels — the capital of the EU — it is 67%, in Luxembourg — a high income country — it is 78%, in Paris, it is 58% and in Budapest, it is 60%. The cities reviewed included Copenhagen and Melbourne. I note that in Copenhagen, the regulator costs approximately €300 million per annum to operate. Is Dublin Bus being consulted on all the issues? Is there any chance the network, which Dublin Bus has looked after satisfactorily for the consumer, is under threat because of the legislation?

I refer to the consumers. Dublin Bus had almost 150 million passengers per annum when the Luas was launched. The Luas hit Dublin Bus for 2 million passengers on the Tallaght and the Stillorgan routes and it then made a bit of a comeback. How many passengers does Dublin Bus have at this point?

Two or three years ago, it was said that 80% of people travelled to work in central Dublin by car and that Dublin Bus only had a 2% share. Mr. Meagher told us about the QBCs and said that Dublin Bus is up to 70%. In global terms, what is the bus share of passengers?

One of the points Deputy Fergus O'Dowd and others in Fianna Fáil are totally ignoring is that year after year Dublin Bus asked for buses. It had approximately 1,100 buses for a decade and the Government would not give it any new ones because it was considering privatisation. I do not know whether members know this but a clear proposal on privatisation was done in 2000. The Labour Party has asked that Dublin Bus get 500 buses immediately. Mr. Meagher said it has 105 of 450 buses but that Dublin Bus needs the guts of 500 buses. When does it expect to get the remaining buses? When will it be able to bring the fleet up to 1,500 buses, which it presumably needs in order to expand?

I refer to Dublin Bus staff. Has the problem in Harristown been resolved? The Chairman mentioned that up to then Dublin Bus had not lost any days due to industrial action for years.

Mr. Meagher will be familiar with the question people ask about these cross city routes. One such is the new No. 128 cross-city route to Clongriffin in my constituency — the north fringe is the constituency I am proud to represent. Sometimes people ask whether among the congestion there is merit in the buses going back and forth to their bases, a little like Ryanair does, leaving the central city area to some extent for pedestrians. Dublin Bus seems to want to increase this cross-city interaction. I am open to arguments on that. People would sometimes say that the buses clog up their own passage as well as that of the car traffic.

What are Dublin Bus's staff costs per passenger, in terms of wages?

On expanding the network, what further quality bus corridors does Dublin Bus want? There were problems in setting up the QBC on the Clontarf Road and into my constituency, but Mr. Meagher seems to be saying that if we could get the entire city routed with QBCs, there would be a massive modal switch. Is that the case? What does this committee need to do to support and encourage Dublin Bus in that regard so that people can switch to buses?

In the recent general election my party colleague and our former spokesperson, Deputy Shortall, proposed giving Dublin Bus 500 buses immediately, or as quickly as possible, and charging a fare of €1. What would have been the implications had my party been involved in the Government, held the Transport portfolio and looked for €1 and 50 cent fares? In other words, do fares play a role in encouraging people to use public transport? Often people state that one of the reasons the buses are relatively slower than they should be is that they are held up while drivers take fares. Can we get to a point where it is an all-ticket service, just like Luas?

Mr. Meagher mentioned real-time information. One of his predecessors, the gentleman from Manchester in the UK who seemed an innovative chief executive in that he introduced the Nippers and other developments, spoke to us about real-time information. I would be standing at the No. 27 bus stop in Coolock and the time of the next bus coming along would be shown on a little red display such as those used in France. That was 13 or 14 years ago and I am still waiting for such information. I want to know whether Dublin Bus will deliver this service so that I would come to a bus stop, for example, on Greencastle Road or on the Howth Road, and watch the progress of the bus coming towards me as I would with Luas or a metro. Will Dublin Bus deliver that?

Deputy John Curran

I thank Mr. Joe Meagher for his presentation. He referred to one of the QBCs and a new No. 151 service in Clondalkin, which operates well. Where Dublin Bus provides a reliable quality service, the public uses it. I do not necessarily agree with Deputy Broughan that the issue is a fare of €1 or 50c. The issue is the quality and reliability of the service, which is what seems to attract people to using buses.

I concur with the opening remark of the Chairman that he is looking for a specific number of additional buses in two years. We can build roads around Dublin and outside of the city, but the city centre has a finite space which requires public transport and we cannot have the car occupying it for ever as the number of cars in the country grows. A range of public transport initiatives is ongoing, of which some are at planning stage and some at construction stage, whether it be the interconnector, new Luas lines or metro, but none of those will be in operation for a number of years.

Dublin Bus's plan refers to the introduction of 300 buses in five years' time. I was somewhat taken aback by that figure because the network review, to which Mr. Meagher referred in the beginning, suggested that Dublin Bus should have 425 additional buses. A year or so ago Dublin Bus got an additional 100 buses. To be fair, it took Dublin Bus a year to get them into operation because it had to recruit staff, provide garaging and everything that goes with it.

There is a degree of urgency about this and I concur with the Chairman on that point. Major infrastructural projects are taking place around Dublin and we need to get the car out of the city to the greatest extent possible, and with that in mind I have a couple of specific points to make. One of Mr. Meagher's slides refers to the journey time of over half an hour from Mountjoy Square to St. Stephen's Green, which is a ludicrous. Is Mr. Meagher coming forward with specific suggestions on where the pinch-points are and what is needed to remove them?

He indicated that Dublin Bus has good co-operation with other agencies, but I am not worried about such co-operation because they are Mr. Meagher's problems. Is he screaming from the rooftops about what he needs to enable those buses to travel a couple of miles or less in 30 minutes? It is a ridiculous position in the area of College Green. Is Dublin Bus, with buses parked around the city for longer periods than are absolutely necessary, in some way to blame? Can we get the buses out of the city when they are not in use?

I agree with the Chairman's statement that he wants to see a couple of hundred additional buses front-loaded. In that regard, I put this suggestion to Mr. Meagher because it was one that was considered previously. It was my understanding that consideration was being given to Dublin Bus hiring and operating private capacity. Whatever happened to that suggestion? Could that be fast-tracked? The problem exists today and we are looking for real solutions in real time. My criticism of the presentation is that it is not aggressive enough to deal with the real problem.

Dublin Bus has good co-operation with the local authorities and other agencies in respect of park and ride facilities. Instead of waiting for them to come forward, is Dublin Bus looking at what the marketplace wants? One can see on the N7 any day thousands of cars coming in through Newlands Cross from right out at Rathcoole. Would it worthwhile to provide park and ride facilities somewhere on the N7, for example at Rathcoole, with QBCs from there to the city? One could apply the same on the N4, N3 or any of those roads. Instead of waiting for others, given that they are Mr. Meagher's buses and passengers, has he made a business case to tackle this aggressively? There are so many agencies involved that it is frustrating and we are not getting to the crunch of this.

Commissioning 100 buses took Dublin Bus a year, and I am not being critical because I understand. What real plans can Dublin Bus bring forward which in a two-year period could make significant impact? The infrastructure projects the Government has planned will cause traffic restrictions and the importance of the bus will even be more significant in those cases.

Chairman

Before Mr. Meagher answers, I reiterate that what Dublin Bus has put in red print in the presentation is quite remarkable, that journey times of up to 50 minutes from Mountjoy Square to St. Stephen's Green are a regular occurrence, and that is using O'Connell Street where cars are not allowed. If this committee were to make a solid recommendation that cars should not be allowed in College Green area, which would be a radical recommendation, can we be assured that Dublin Bus would be in a position to put on a significant number of extra buses and, if so, how would it be done in quick time to deal with this necessity to take cars out of the city centre?

Mr. Joe Meagher

There were a number of issues and I will take them in order. The Chairman raised the issue of off-peak services and I would agree with him. We are intensifying off-peak services on all the main corridors. There are a number QBCs where there are frequencies of five minutes and the numbers are good.

Mention was made of the Lucan Road. There are a number of locations on that route where the bus dips off into Lucan and Chapelizod, etc., and that would have contributed to the situation to which reference was made. During that time — we checked — there were probably approximately 11 buses that operated but some of them would have been dipping off in the way I suggested.

I will go through the points raised by Deputy Broughan and if I miss any, he might come back to me. We have been consulted and have given our views on the DTA Bill. Obviously, we want to be involved. We feel we have a strong expertise in network planning, etc. It would be important that the DTA would have a strong strategic role in ensuring everyone was singing from the same hymn sheet and working towards the same goal. In the city centre, there are many competing demands in respect of scarce street space. In that context, heads should be knocked together. The city manager is doing a great deal of good work in that area to ensure the best decisions are made in the interests of the people of Dublin rather than those of any particular grouping.

In any event, we have full canteen facilities in the city centre for our drivers.

Mr. Joe Meagher

The issue of staff costs was raised. I quoted one figure which indicated that the subvention per customer cost for Dublin Bus works out at 48 cent, while that which applies in London is 53 cent. I wish to place on record some further figures to give members a better idea of the overall picture in terms of the progress made by Dublin Bus. We are conscious of the need to ensure our operations are cost-efficient.

Dublin Bus was formed in 1987. At that time quite a number of conductors were still employed by the company. As a proportion of the total number of staff, the number of drivers was 41%. The figure now stands at 75%. We try to ensure our operations are as lean as possible. However, we need people to drive buses. In 1987 the number of maintenance staff per 100 buses was approximately 70. The figure now is approximately 36. A great deal was done in the context of removing demarcation, trying to be more efficient, etc. Perhaps this gives some indication of the sort of efficiencies we are trying to achieve.

With regard to expanding the quality bus corridor network, there are a number of things we can do. Many routes are designated as QBCs. However, some are designated in name only. An example of this is the Rathfarnham QBC where buses reach an average speed of only 9 km/h to 10 km/h. We need to deal with the pinch points on such corridors. Deputy Curran stated that we should be taking the lead in that regard. I take his point and assure him we are highlighting the areas in which we are encountering difficulties. We are having a major input in the context of what should be the major elements of the bus priority programme. The latter will ensure money will be spent in a way that will benefit the operation of buses to the greatest degree. There is little point in spending money at location A if the problems exist at location B.

Deputy John Curran

Is Mr. Meagher in a position to list the pinch points that are causing the greatest level of difficulty?

Mr. Joe Meagher

Yes. What we did was prepare a list of the areas in respect of which we had difficulties. We then discussed these with the QBN office, which has the expertise in this area, and sought to have those which give rise to particular problems included in the programme. It was then a matter for that office, in consultation with us to some degree, to survey the various areas, bring forward solutions, negotiate with local authorities and representatives in respect of these and then come forward with an overall programme. We meet representatives of the office regularly and we work well together in a constructive way. The focus very much lies on dealing with the problem areas.

One must look under the top figure. There has been a significant jump in certain areas but the Luas has taken away 10 million passengers. If the Luas had not been introduced, we would be carrying 158 million this year and perhaps 160 million because it carries between 10 million and 12 million. There would have been significant growth in those areas for Dublin Bus. This will be a fact of life over the years, especially when some of the big rail-based projects are put in place. We will need to look at the structure of our routes at that time and there will be more feeder routes. When metro north is in place, the structure of bus routes along that corridor will have to change and we accept this fact.

We have targeted a growth of 35 million customers over five years by developing the QBCs in the way I have described and by serving new areas with new frequencies. This is our plan.

Chairman

Could Mr. Meagher be more specific in answer to Deputy Curran's questions.

Mr. Joe Meagher

I will take Deputy Curran's questions. I note his comments on the 151 buses. The Deputy referred to the 400 versus 300 buses. The network review recommended 425 buses. We have 105 in place. I was rounding figures when I said 300 over the next few years. We are working to that figure of 425. We would be very glad to try to fast-track them.

The question was asked about contracting private operators. We have had discussions on this matter. I was not in Dublin Bus at the time but there was a plan for Dublin Bus to do this in 2000 but it did not happen. Other plans were put forward for privatisation which superseded those plans. I think the contracting of private operators is a way forward which should be given serious consideration.

Deputy John Curran

Will Dublin Bus review and reactivate that plan? Will these additional buses be front-loaded? The five-year time plan to have these 300 buses fully functioning is too long in light of other infrastructural projects around the city. We are looking for the whole plan to be operational much sooner than that. I do not mean just the additional buses but also the frequency and the pinch points. We need a much more urgent response. Will the company review the policy of contracting?

Mr. Joe Meagher

We will certainly do that. The issue of priority must be dealt with in parallel. We must examine the financial and other resources that are needed to deliver the package.

Senator Paschal Donohoe

I have been waiting for the past hour to ask a question.

Chairman

I ask Mr. Meagher to finish his point first.

Mr. Joe Meagher

The point was made about the real time passenger information. We have gone through a procurement process and chosen a preferred bidder and we expect to sign a contract soon. Funding has been approved and this project will go ahead. The plan for delivery and for automatic vehicle location and real time passenger information is to be delivered from mid to late 2009 through to 2010.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Will there be prepaid tickets?

Mr. Joe Meagher

We have many prepaid tickets at the moment. This question raises the issue of dwell times at bus stops. We plan to introduce an interim smart card for some Dublin Bus products through the first half of next year. We plan to have delivery of the ITS card — which will be valid across the various modes of transport — rolled out from September 2009. One third of our revenue currently is from prepaid tickets and therefore two thirds is from cash.

I refer to the situation in London where the fare structure has been changed quite dramatically. A cash ticket costs £2 and as a result 97% of tickets are prepaid. We are looking to change and to flip the balance and this will have an effect on dwell times. This is all part of the plan for the next two to three years.

As part of the automatic vehicle location system we are working with Dublin City Council to link this with the traffic lights and bus priority will be given. This will be delivered as part of the project I outlined to Deputy Broughan. It will be delivered from mid-2009 through 2010. We will sign the contract shortly.

Senator Paschal Donohoe

I need to leave the meeting at 6 p.m. and I may miss the answers to my questions but I can read them tomorrow.

I am a big supporter of the work of Dublin Bus. I travel by bus every day. I use the Nos. 10, 39 and 37 services regularly. The Broadstone depot is located in my constituency. The response from management in the Broadstone and from the other depots across the city is excellent. I wish to make this clear before I ask my questions.

Many of the factors influencing the performance of Dublin Bus in recent times are outside its control. I refer to two factors, the first being that the additional buses required have not been provided and, second, regardless of the number of additional services or passengers, the formula is that the subvention only increases by 5% each year. The incentive for Dublin Bus to grow its business in an aggressive manner does not exist because the funding is already fixed. The delegation's presentation stated that Dublin Bus wishes to provide an additional 300 buses but bodies such as the Dublin Chamber of Commerce say that an additional 500 buses are required to meet the needs of the bus market in the Dublin region. How will that gap be managed, in light of projected population growth in the city centre and across the city?

Many of Dublin Bus's plans are based on the development of the QBCs. It seems to me that the performance of the QBCs is not good enough. The only figures available to me are those provided by the Dublin transport authority and which show an 11% saving in journey time between a journey on a QBC and a car. This might make a saving of between five and ten minutes in a journey time. If the modal shift required is to be achieved, this journey time saving needs to be radically expanded. I would appreciate the delegation's view on how this is to be achieved.

Questions were asked about the additional service to Dublin port. I am still not sure what will change. Is Dublin Bus considering putting in its own tender for another bus route in the area in the near future? I am talking about the port tunnel.

Deputy Chris Andrews

It is interesting to hear Deputy Broughan lamenting that his party is not in Government. Given the exchanges between Deputy O'Dowd and himself they appear to be further apart than we were ever led to believe.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

We are very good friends.

Chairman

There is too much mischief here today.

Deputy Chris Andrews

Having listened to Deputies Kennedy and O'Brien one would be forgiven for thinking that everything was great in south Dublin. I accept we have the Luas, DART and the very successful Stillorgan QBC, which in itself has brought its own problems. The witnesses have stated that 70% of all public transport commuters travel by bus. Bus travel is much more flexible and can vary its response to customer needs, which is welcome. In areas such as Milltown, however, which are close to the Luas, Dublin Bus has cut back on its services. The people in Milltown are worse off than they were before the introduction of the Luas because it is some distance to the Luas and the bus service has been cut back. I would urge that a review be carried out to consider feeder services and nipper bus services.

The Stillorgan QBC has been a great success. I would be interested to hear the witnesses' opinion on the success of the Merrion Road QBC. While there has been considerable controversy at different points, it is the way to go. We need more orbital routes, for example from Rathgar to Sandymount. There is little point in having orbital routes without sufficient passengers. The presentation stated that more than 100 million bus journeys started, ended and travelled through the city centre. I am sure not all these journeys were necessary. Orbital routes should be prioritised as a way to address the inner city congestion.

The witnesses touched on environmental cost and the reduction in emissions, which is very welcome. With the cost of oil now in excess of $90 a barrel we need to move quickly towards meeting the minimum requirements for the use of bio-fuels in public transport vehicles. The programme for Government states that Dublin Bus will move its existing fleet to 5% biodiesel blend and will achieve a 30% biodiesel blend in its new buses. What implication will that have for the 300 new buses coming on stream? We have also read about hydrogen fuel cell buses that are being pioneered in Madrid, Amsterdam and other cities. Has Dublin Bus given such buses consideration?

Dublin city centre is taking all the people from north and south Dublin. They are all converging in the city and it has had considerable implications for communities in Pearse Street, Kevin Street, Sandymount, Ringsend, Donnybrook, Milltown and Terenure. While it is not most people's favoured solution, I broadly support the notion of a congestion charge and I would be interested in the witnesses' views in that regard. The quality of life for people in the inner city and those travelling in and out ultimately would be improved by a congestion charge, which has clearly worked in London. The devil is in the detail and that is where a congestion charge will stand or fall. We need to have the services and I would like to know how quickly Dublin Bus could respond if a congestion charge were introduced.

Has Dublin Bus carried out a feasibility study on introducing a feeder service between the two Luas lines? Mention was made earlier of subcontracted franchising as it operates in London. I have no ideological hang-ups. I would be open to thinking outside the box regarding bus services. Has Dublin Bus examined how it works in London? Is that a model we could introduce here? What would be the cost of the real-time arrival information? Many buses have a number of doors of which only one seems to be used. Why do we get buses with two doors when we do not use two?

Mr. Joe Meagher

Senator Donohoe spoke about the Dublin Chamber of Commerce belief that an additional 500 buses are required. The accepted figure mentioned in our network review work was 425, which we believe should be the target. He said that the 11% saving in journey time between a journey on a QBC and a car was inadequate. I would not disagree. As we have said there is a significant variation in the performance of different QBCs. Some are very good and others are quite mediocre. Our task in coming years will be to bring them all up to the standard.

Chairman

Mr. Meagher spoke about a list of the pinch points and the QBC improvements, which Dublin Bus has already submitted.

Mr. Joe Meagher

It is at the stage where we approaching having a draft programme and we could talk to the committee about that. We have always wanted to operate through the port tunnel the buses on the No. 41 route from Swords. Now that the decision has been made on the privately operated service we await a response from the Department on permission to revert our services to operating through the tunnel again.

Deputy Chris Andrews spoke about buses close to the Luas. The services close to the Luas lines have been quite badly affected. Having put the expenditure into the Luas system we must ask whether it makes sense to maintain the same resources in the bus system. The correct approach is to reallocate some of those resources elsewhere where they are more badly needed.

On the Merrion Road QBC, it is early days yet. There have been many road works recently. We have enhanced the service with the new 4 and 4A routes. We are optimistic that it will do very well. More orbital routes with greater priority on them form part of the plan. Some of them are quite difficult at the moment.

On environmental issues, we are carrying out trials using biodiesel at the moment with a plan to expand. A number of issues remain to be sorted out. The achievement of reduced emissions is a very important development which is not given enough credit. It is very early days on the hydrogen fuel bus. We have talked to suppliers and the technology needs to be proved yet. The hybrid is further advanced and we look forward to taking delivery of the bus which we expect will be in May. We are one of the first companies to carry out trials with a hybrid bus. We would be glad to demonstrate it to members of the committee if they wish to see it when it arrives.

Deputy Chris Andrews

Are the targets of achieving 5% biodiesel blend in older buses and 30% diesel in newer buses realistic?

Mr. Joe Meagher

We are working on this and a number of issues remain to be teased out. We must consider cost and performance, for example, whether engines will accept these fuels. The newer and older buses are not the same in this regard.

The congestion charge has obviously made a significant difference in London and, with other measures, would be helpful and make a significant difference in Dublin. A number of measures could be taken in the central area to limit access for cars. It is amazing how effective and beneficial it can be to restrict right turns at certain junctions.

Macken Street bridge, which is due for completion in 2009, will be an important development. The Chairman referred to problems in O'Connell Street and buses travelling from Parnell Square being held up despite limits on car access. The problem is not that buses get in each other's way. In 90% of cases, the problem is caused by a conflict around the junction of Dawson Street and Nassau Street. If a significant volume of traffic is heading towards Pearse Street to turn at Tara Street, it will back up along Westland Row, Nassau Street and Dawson Street, snarling up outbound traffic heading for Kildare Street. We find that our buses are held up for 40 or 50 minutes as a result but are able to make rapid progress as soon as they turn right into Kildare Street. I would wager a bet with members that they rarely see traffic problems on Kildare Street. The difficulty is reaching Kildare Street owing to the conflict around Nassau Street, Pearse Street, etc.

Chairman

Does the large-scale construction work due to commence in the city centre not offer Dublin Bus an opportunity to take the bull by the horns and demand that cars be removed from certain areas to allow the introduction of a high quality bus service? I never cease to be amazed at the number of buses in the vicinity of College Green. I am aware from my discussions with Dublin City Council that it is examining the possibility of making College Green a car free zone. Surely Dublin Bus representatives should be hammering down doors to deliver this message.

We cannot wait until 2009 or 2010 until the Macken Street bridge opens. The joint committee will propose that a bailey bridge be built across the river at that point as it would only take three months to have such a bridge in place. These are the kinds of proposals we want Dublin Bus to be more proactive about. There is gridlock and a shortage of buses in Dublin. Solving the problem is not rocket science. Following our discussions with other relevant agencies, we will invite Dublin Bus representatives before the committee again.

With due respect, while the plans sound great, I do not detect a sense of desperation about having steps taken to make bus transport in the city centre effective.

Mr. Joe Meagher

The Chairman is being a little unfair. He will find from talking to anyone in the Department, Dublin City Council or Dublin Transportation Office that officials in these bodies have pains in their ears from listening to me and other representatives of Dublin Bus discuss the city centre issue. During every one of our presentations, I and other company officials have been on people's houses about the issue. Dublin Bus participated in a group in the DTO that produced a number of initiatives, including what is described as the "bus gate" at College Green, which would involve banning cars from driving through that area, and a range of initiatives to ban right turns. These measures are being actively worked on as a result of the significant pressure applied by Dublin Bus and others.

We want to see a mechanism whereby there can be some contracting of private sector buses to complement the Dublin Bus service. I agree with Deputy Broughan that we have a good service. I do not believe it would be any better if we did what was done in the UK. I am a solid supporter of Dublin Bus but I want to see competition introduced to provide extra buses. The sister company of Dublin Bus, Bus Éireann, has been quite successful in introducing extra buses through contracts or a franchise system or whatever. That is a good example of how things should be done. We would like to hear from Dublin Bus, as would the Minister, about how we can get more and better buses on quality bus corridors.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

I agree with everything the Chairman said. I wish to make clear the Fine Gael position. The record will show, when the unfortunate people who type this up have it done, that we are very clear on competition. I never mentioned the word "privatisation".

This has been a most useful discussion. The Chairman has made some excellent points. Ultimately, what we must do is put the commuter at the top of the list and put in place more services, whether they are provided by the private sector or Bus Éireann. The commuter does not mind as long as he or she gets a better service with more frequent and cleaner buses. Let us not get hung up on ideology.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

One point I did not raise is that we receive many complaints. Vandalism is a problem on the No. 46 bus, for example, which is from way outside my constituency. People cause all manner of mayhem, smoke and perhaps even take drugs upstairs on the bus. At one time inspectors hopped on and off buses but we rarely see them now. Concern has been expressed, especially by those who travel in off-peak hours, that the route can be dangerous. The rules are flagrantly broken.

I am sorry I cannot accompany members on the trip to London but it is my understanding that Mayor Livingstone has been forced to spend recent years gradually reclaiming large elements of the public transport system. He is trying to reclaim the underground system because it was working so ineffectively. The most efficient approach appears to involve having some public service involvement.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

Commuters want service. The private operator travelling from Swords which uses the tunnel charges €3 for the trip compared with €1.90 charged by Dublin Bus. The feedback I get is that people are happy to use this service because they get into town in 35 minutes. Dublin Bus needs to focus on giving a reliable service in future. I wish it every success.

Mr. Joe Meagher

We are doing a great deal to combat anti-social behaviour. We fitted all buses with closed circuit television cameras. Each bus has eight cameras. We have reduced the level of such behaviour significantly in a number of areas. We work closely with the Garda which monitors the situation with our inspectors in areas where there are difficulties. We do a great deal in this regard.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Has Dublin Bus ever banned individuals from buses because of their behaviour?

Mr. Joe Meagher

We have banned people from buses and we have had to take buses out of certain areas for a period. We tend to measure anti-social behaviour in terms of broken windows and this has been reduced. Our staff work with local communities. One initiative involves nominating drivers to make presentations in schools on a regular basis.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I am familiar with the community work of Dublin Bus.

Mr. Joe Meagher

We do a tremendous amount of work to reduce anti-social behaviour. We are thankful for the opportunity to appear before the committee. We appreciate the support of committee members and the positive comments that were made in a constructive way. We are anxious to play our role. The committee can take it we will not be found wanting in pushing forward the agenda to achieve our priorities. The encouragement we received today will give us an added impetus. We will return to the committee on the points made in four specific areas.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Meagher. It is clear there is general support for Dublin Bus and for the current transport structure. We wish Dublin Bus well and offer our support in any way we can to enable it to take up the opportunity between now and the middle of 2009 when I understand holes will be dug in the city centre area. We will invite Dublin Bus back to the committee towards the end of this exercise for a final discussion when we have heard from all the other contributors.

Unless there is any other business, I declare the meeting adjourned. I wish members a very healthy and happy Christmas.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.30 p.m. until Tuesday, 15 January 2008.