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Joint Committee on Transport and Communications debate -
Wednesday, 12 Oct 2022

Engagement with Road Safety Authority

The purpose of the meeting today is for the joint committee to discuss issues affecting the national car test, NCT, centres with delays to testing appointments for cars and vehicles, renewal of driving licences, and the recognition of non-EU or EEA driving licences. We are joined by representatives of the Road Safety Authority, RSA, and I am pleased to welcome on behalf of the committee Mr. Sam Waide, CEO, and his colleague Mr. Brendan Walsh, chief operations officer.

I will now read a note on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to any identified person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. Reluctantly, I will not permit a member to take part if they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members participating via MS Teams to confirm that they are on the grounds of Leinster House campus prior to making a contribution. If attending in the committee room, members are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19.

I now invite Mr. Waide to make his opening statement on behalf of the Road Safety Authority.

Mr. Sam Waide

I wish to begin by thanking the joint committee, through the Chairperson, for the opportunity to speak to members this afternoon to discuss the issues affecting NCT centres, renewal of driver licences and the recognition of non-EU or EEA driving licences. First, in regard to the National Car Testing Service, NCTS, the RSA has overall responsibility for the NCT service; its operation, oversight, development, quality assurance and delivery. Following an EU accorded procurement process, the contract for the provision of the service for the period June 2020 to June 2030 was awarded to Applus+ Inspection Services Ireland Ltd. The service is provided at 49 test centres nationwide, including two new centres at Tuam and Navan, which became operational in 2021. NCTS currently employs 777 people. To increase capacity further, the company is also investing in new test centres in Shannon, County Clare; north Dublin; Cootehill, County Cavan; Fermoy, County Cork and Castleisland, County Kerry. This year has been especially challenging for the NCTS, due to the impact of Covid-19, which caused significant staff absenteeism levels at the test centres and in the call centre. There were also very high levels of customer no-shows and late cancellations. With the delay in the availability of new cars, there are more older cars on Irish roads, resulting in more than 1.5 million cars to be tested at NCTS this year. These multiple factors have caused a build-up of demand, as NCTS has been unable to carry out as many tests as planned.

The average lead time for an appointment for a test is currently 24.5 days. Before the pandemic, the waiting time was less than 12 calendar days. Where customers have difficulty booking a suitable slot, they can avail of the NCTS priority waiting list as not all slots are released at the same time. A proportion of slots is kept back for people applying later. As a result, the vast majority of customers who go on the waiting list are offered a test within four to five weeks of application. Use of this priority waiting list is expected to continue for some time as capacity recovers to match demand. Tests are offered all days of the week across the service, with staff also being offered overtime to further increase capacity.

Over the past two years, despite regular recruitment campaigns, the NCTS has found it increasingly difficult to recruit a sufficient number of qualified Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI, level 6 mechanics as vehicle inspectors to meet the demand. This is an issue that has also affected the wider motor industry as a whole. To augment the number of vehicle inspectors, the NCTS is in the process of transferring 22 staff from its Spanish operations to the test centres that are under most pressure. A further 44 recruits from the Philippines have obtained work permits, facilitated by the Departments of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and Transport, enabling up to 100 general employment permits to be issued for vehicle roadworthiness testers. Visa applications for these staff are currently being processed. Coupled with other planned local recruitment, the additional resources will enable the NCTS to reduce its backlog and shorten waiting times in the coming months. In the meantime, if customers have difficulty getting a test slot, they should go online to the NCTS website and add their name to the priority waiting list or call the NCTS directly.

As to insurance, Insurance Ireland has confirmed that its members will be pragmatic and understanding in their approach to the current delays at the NCTS. Cover will continue to be provided where customers, through no fault of their own, are unable to obtain their NCT due to backlogs at test centres. Under the current circumstances, provided motorists make every effort to book appointments in the normal way, insurance companies will recognise that the current issue is not the fault of the customer.

Enforcement of road traffic regulations is the responsibility of An Garda Síochána. We have briefed the national roads policing unit of An Garda Síochána about the current issues in the NCTS, and customers should carry proof of their test booking confirmation to produce to a member of An Garda Síochána if required. Notwithstanding this, motor insurance and road traffic legislation requires that motorists maintain their vehicles in a roadworthy condition at all times, not just at the time of their NCT. It is each vehicle owner’s legal responsibility to ensure his or her vehicle is in compliance with the law and maintained in a roadworthy condition at all times.

The NCT contract recognised that the presence of Covid-19 with travel restrictions constituted a relief event and, in accordance with the contract, this was coupled with associated adjustments to some service levels during the pandemic. Following the resumption of services in June 2020, the contractor progressively improved adherence to service levels and except for waiting times, primarily due to absenteeism and staff turnover, the contractor has met the quality and customer satisfaction performance standards required.

The National Driver Licence Service, NDLS, has come through the challenges posed by Covid-19 and is coping well with current demand. The NDLS processes learner permit and driving licence applications through distinct channels: first, online applications for applicants with a public services card and a verified MyGovID account, which is 41% of applicants; second, a postal channel for over 70s accounts for 4% of total applications; and, third, the remaining 55% of applicants apply through the network of 34 local NDLS centres nationwide.

Appointments are readily available across the network. On 6 October, we had 17,845 booked appointments with 58,401 slots, or 76.6%, available to be booked. Up to the end of September 2022, the NDLS had processed over 778,000 permit and licence applications, which compares with a normal full year of 700,000 applications. The forecast for applications is that there will be over 900,000 in the full calendar year. This increase in applications is an effect of the licence and learner permit extensions introduced as a result of Covid. The NDLS has coped with this extra demand.

Application processing times can vary depending on how the application was submitted and if there are no issues with the application itself. Over 40% of online applications and applications booked in NDLS centres are processed automatically and issued through the postal service within 24 hours of receipt. Standard applications that require verification or processing in the NDLS back office are processed within four days and issued through An Post. Applications received by post require more manual processing and are processed within 11 working days. Processing times for all application types may increase if the application is not complete and requires updates or supporting documentation from the applicant.

As for the exchange of foreign driver licences, 16,717 applications have been received by NDLS to date in 2022, of which 80.3% have been processed. Average processing time for applications received to date in 2022 was 39 days. The top five countries for licence exchange are the UK, South Africa, Poland, Romania and Canada, with 3,693, 1,618, 1,149, 857 and 614 applications, respectively.

The RSA is aware of driver shortages within the commercial driver industry in Ireland and industry recruitment of drivers from abroad continues. One such country for recruitment activity is South Africa. To date, the NDLS has received 1,618 applications for exchange of a South African driving licence in 2022, of which 89.7% have been processed. Average processing time for applications received in September was 24 days. There are various reasons for delays, such as the driver needing to submit outstanding information, for example, a medical or eyesight report, or the physical driving licence itself in the case of an online application. The most common reason is that the NDLS awaits verification of the driving licence from the foreign driving licence authority. At times, we can get a response very quickly but sometimes we can experience considerable delays from that authority.

On the recognition of non-EU or EEA driving licences, we have a driving licence exchange agreement with the following non-EU or EEA countries, namely, Australia; Gibraltar; Guernsey; Isle of Man; Japan; Jersey; South Africa; Republic of Korea; Switzerland; New Zealand; Taiwan; the UK and Northern Ireland. Also included are the following provinces of Canada, namely, Ontario, Manitoba, Newfoundland and Labrador, British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Alberta and New Brunswick. The licensing system in Ireland is broadly like theirs and we agree to these arrangements. An essential aspect of any mutual licensing arrangement is that two countries initially agree to engage and explore their licensing systems, accept that licensing systems are broadly similar and put an administration system in place to manage licence swaps. The RSA is currently engaging with Argentina and North Macedonia and hopes to make recommendations on them shortly. We continue to engage with the remaining provinces in Canada and hope to commence a review of the licensing and testing system in Israel shortly.

Ukrainian driving licences are now recognised for driving in Ireland for people granted temporary protection. Prior to recognition, for a short time Ireland exchanged Ukrainian driving licences. During that time 2,241 applicants were issued with a one-year Irish driving licence. Any of those who wish to have their Ukrainian driving licence returned to them can request this but must surrender the Irish driving licence.

In closing, I hope the committee will allow me the opportunity to provide an update on the current situation regarding progress in road safety this year, which is first and foremost of all of the topics tabled.

Between 1 January and 11 October there have been 117 fatalities on Irish roads. My thoughts and RSA's thoughts go out to the families who have suffered that loss. This is an increase of 12 on this time in 2021 and of nine on 2019. While road deaths in the second half of this year are running at a lower rate than the first half, the overall trend in 2022 remains a concern, not only for the RSA but for our delivery agencies and the road safety transformation partnership, which has oversight of the Government road safety strategy. The board is chaired by the Department of Transport and comprises senior representatives of the key State bodies across transport, justice, health and education. The vast majority of actions are on track and, where challenges arise, we are working with partner organisations on monitoring these closely to ensure they stay on track. I am happy to take questions members may have in relation to our submission and my opening statement.

I thank Mr. Waide. He will understand this is of huge interest to the general public and to business concerns. We are glad to have the witnesses before us and welcome this engagement. I move to members. First on the rota is Senator Dooley. He has 12 minutes but I will be liberal.

I welcome Mr. Waide and Mr. Walsh and thank them for their attendance and the presentation. We have always had good interaction between their organisation and the committee so hopefully we can continue with that.

On the NCT side, there are a number of reasons. We know some of the problems and staffing seems to be one of them. I have had a concern for a while about the level of pay for the staff. If the jobs are so unattractive that we have to go to the Philippines to bring people here to test our cars, or to Spain or wherever, that would seem to indicate a problem. Perhaps the problem is closer to home. Perhaps these people are not being appropriately remunerated to allow them to stay with the service or to attract people from outside. Trained mechanics, if we are to believe the future in terms of electric vehicles, will not have the same level of requirement as with the standard propelled car. It seems to me rather strange that there is not a supply of people available to the NCT.

Mr. Sam Waide

I thank the Senator. I will set the context of the demand and answer the question in regard to recruitment. The demand, as I said in my opening statement, is unprecedented. It is a combination of the demand that has come from Covid-19, the additional new cars coming into Ireland and being sold and the import of used cars from the likes of the United Kingdom. There is an unprecedented demand, beyond the seasonal demand which NCTS has experienced in the past.

Will Mr. Waide give me that again? Is he saying there is an unprecedented demand based on cars coming in from the UK?

Mr. Sam Waide

There is.

The taxation changes on Brexit have significantly reduced the number of cars coming in from the UK. We had the statistics recently. They have gone through the floor. If you talk to the industry, there is a shortage of cars.

Mr. Sam Waide

We will come back to some of the detail of that information but may I answer the question on recruitment?

Mr. Sam Waide

RSA has been working and supporting the provider, Applus+, to identify where additional staff can be recruited. Recruitment campaigns have been carried out locally and the resultant low applicant rates have forced the provider to go outside of Ireland, not just into Europe but internationally.

The point I am making, with respect, is that if the rates of pay were attractive, the provider would not have to go to Spain, the Philippines and elsewhere. If RSA is engaging with Applus+, will it look at the rates of pay? Issues have been raised with me by people working in those centres about overtime. They are paid per car rather than per hour. There are issues around whether new recruits all have to work weekends, rather than putting in place some kind of a three-cycle approach. RSA needs to look at the HR practices, in terms of what staff are paid and the work-life experience they get. If it looked at that, that company might be in a position to retain more staff and be a more attractive opportunity for others. I have nothing against bringing in people from other jurisdictions if that is a requirement but I suggest there are people here prepared to work in the sector if it is made attractive to them.

What kind of qualifications do those coming in have? Are they qualified to the same standard as motor mechanics here? What kind of programme does RSA put in place to ensure they are up to the same standard as mechanics trained in the Irish context?

Mr. Sam Waide

May I give the Senator further assurance on the point he makes about qualifications? I will ask my colleague, Mr. Walsh, to expand on that and on the pay-related aspects, which the provider has been reviewing over the past 12 months.

I will throw one question before Mr. Waide goes to Mr. Walsh. It has been suggested to me that some of the backlog is associated with car lift issues and that there were faulty car lifts in place prior to Covid that resulted in significant delays. Were the witnesses aware of that?

Mr. Sam Waide

I will answer that question before passing over to my colleague. There is no longer any issue with lifts and that has not been a feature of impacting on capacity, which we are discussing today.

Was it an issue at a certain stage?

Mr. Sam Waide

Yes. I recall in 2020, the outstanding issues on lifts were resolved. That is not an issue and has not been identified as one of the contributing factors to the demand today.

Did Applus+ suffer any penalty, loss or sanction for allowing that situation to develop?

Mr. Sam Waide

The contractual obligations were adhered to. Where it needed to be penalised against the contract, it was.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

On the technician situation, within the Applus+ network, 552 testers are active in the market. The intention is, as we have mentioned, that they will complement the existing portfolio of individuals by bringing people-----

How many in total are there at the moment?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

There are 552 active testers as of Monday. There are 22 additional individuals coming in from Spain, ten of whom started physically testing this week because they were within the Applus+ testing network already in Spain. The remaining 12 are going through some minor training on differences on machines there may be between Spain and Ireland. Those 12 will be active next week.

On the technician pay the Senator referenced, we have challenged this with Applus+. The rate it pays is broadly in line with the motor industry for the type of work being done. Within the motor industry, there are varying scales of mechanics. Some go on to become technicians and go through a much more advanced curriculum than a normal motor mechanic. Those individuals have a higher level of pay but their work would be much more technical on the diagnostic side and would not be required within the testing structure in the NCT.

Fair enough. Mr. Walsh can make the comparison but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. They are not getting the staff and the customer is suffering as a result because the delays are there. Mr. Walsh made a comparison across the industry but it is a unique system. I suggest he goes back and reviews the pay grades based on supply and demand, rather than looking across the industry.

Mr. Sam Waide

In terms of that question, I would ask my colleague to expand on the apprenticeship scheme. There are a number of actions and interventions. I will let Mr. Walsh expand on the apprenticeship scheme.

We, as an organisation, recognise demand is increasing and will continue to increase. A longer-term solution is required. I ask Mr. Walsh to comment on that.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

In addition to the shortage of technicians, there is a significant shortage all across Europe and in the western world generally in the uptake of apprenticeships by young people. That is being seen in every country. The result is that there is a significant technician shortage throughout the western world. From the perspective of Applus+, it is a net pull on that pool of technicians because the testing network is not an apprenticeship-type programme. In the case of the 552 active testers we have today, they are not technicians who could be grown within the NCT service; they had to be grown within the wider automotive industry and brought into the service.

Another factor is that within the industry, we see a higher level of retention among car dealerships that put the time and money into keeping an apprentice in play. They try to keep those individuals within their own dealerships because of the investment they have made in them. It is something we need to look into. We have started an investigation as to how we can work with agencies such as SOLAS to create a testing curriculum, which would then allow Applus+ to create its own pipeline of talent that could then serve the needs of the national interest.

That certainly seems like a good approach.

Moving to driver licences, one issue we all are challenged with on a daily basis is the number of young people approaching us who, for one reason or another but often because they cannot find accommodation close to their college or university, are driving or carpooling. They have to do so because the accommodation is not there. I met recently with representatives of the University of Limerick, UL, to discuss a number of matters relating to its overall development. It has a shortage of 1,000 accommodation units for its student population this year. That shortage is being filled in the main by students taking public transport, parents dropping them to college or, for those who are lucky enough to have access to a car, by driving themselves. Those who have the ability to sit their test are even luckier. What plans does the RSA have or what kind of timeframe does it see for bringing this to a point whereby people can get a test within two weeks? What is the long-term goal in this regard?

Mr. Sam Waide

In terms of the overall service, as we have discussed with the committee previously, there is a minimum of standard of lessons applicants are required to complete. Through the history of providing the driver testing and licensing service, there is evidence that when those lessons are completed, applicants feel confident to go for the test. As I said in my opening statement in regard to the licensing part of the process, we acknowledge that the profile of applicant includes a high number of young people. The driver licensing service is coping well with that demand. I will pass over to my colleague to give an update on the driver testing part of the process.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

We have 131 active testers carrying out tests at this time. We recently moved from our Covid conditions to a situation where we are now carrying out eight tests a day rather than seven. The lead time of 15.5 weeks we see today is driven by a combination of increases in the number of individuals requiring tests and the fact we have had some retirements within the testing environment. Those factors together have resulted in a significant increase in the lead time. We are working with our colleagues to ensure we are offering overtime during the week and at weekends to try to carry out the maximum number of tests. At the moment, we are carrying out approximately 3,800 tests per week, which is quite a high number by our historical standards. We also have sanction from the Department of Transport to take on an additional 30 permanent testers in our testing environment, which will help to support us. However, the reality is there has been a significant increase, particular in the age demographic of 20 to 30, in the number of people seeking driver tests and, in addition, the number seeking to undergo the approved driving instructor training.

When does the RSA hope to be in a position whereby a person who applies for the test will have to wait only two weeks? What do the witnesses consider their goal to be in terms of the time people have to wait for a test?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

The agreement we have in place and the service-level agreement we operate to involves a waiting time of ten weeks. We are currently at 15.5 and there is a body of work to do to get back to ten weeks.

What would it take to get the waiting time down to a fortnight or even four weeks?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

We have to be mindful that it is not just a case of doing the test. There has to be training and there is a learner to licence process-----

I accept that but it is a separate issue. In terms of the time from when people apply for the test to the time they sit it, whether they pass or fail, what would it take to get that down to four weeks? If there were a policy decision in the morning whereby the Government set that timeframe, what would it take to achieve it?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

We would need more testers.

Mr. Walsh may not have the details to hand but will he come back to us detailing what the RSA would need if a policy decision were taken by the Government to have tests delivered within four weeks of application?

Regarding the NDLS offices around the country, there was a particular problem at the facility in County Clare. I do not want to get into the specifics but the witnesses are well aware of it because it was raised with them. I do not know whether there has been a complaint about it recently but before, during and after the Covid period, there was an appalling level of customer service as a result of the actions or inaction - usually the actions - of one individual. On five or six occasions, elderly people came to my office to talk about the necessity for people to make applications online. Having spoken to colleagues, my office was not unique in this. The problem was the way in which these people were treated. They were not treated with any level of compassion or understanding and this was widespread to the extent that people throughout the county were talking about it.

What measures has the RSA put in place by way of improving the quality of customer service provided at those offices? What kinds of checks and balances are in place when complaints are received? We all get complaints. People complain from time to time about the service they get in my office, particularly from me. We understand how that happens but one must try to address it. What system does the RSA have in place to address complaints that are made in regard to personnel in its office?

Mr. Sam Waide

I will answer that question at a top level first before getting into the detail. As CEO of the organisation, when I am made aware of any appalling behaviour by staff to customers, I do not tolerate it. We are a public service provider and our service provision should be respectful of everyone. There are specific cases we have acted upon, following our staffing and HR policies, which have involved reprimands for individual staff members who breach those policies.

Regarding the overall customer service, we record and then act upon complaints. We also provide proactive training to staff in that regard. I hand over to Mr. Walsh to expand on some of the activities-----

I ask Mr. Walsh to be brief as we have a number of members waiting to contribute.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

I recently joined the RSA and one of my primary focuses is serving customers. We will ensure all training that is required is done. We are carrying out a review of all customer-facing operations and how we interact with the public. The Senator can rest assured we will take this on board.

I thank Mr. Walsh.

The next speaker is Deputy Carey, to whom I will allow up to 15 minutes. I can give no more than that because we are caught for time.

In his opening statement, Mr. Waide made reference to ambitions to open an NCT centre in Shannon, County Clare. That particular project has met a number of difficulties. A site was identified in Smithstown, Shannon, which is an industrial estate. Some of the plant was being built there last year but it came to an abrupt end due to contractual difficulties. As I understand it, the RSA will have to re-evaluate what it is going to do in Shannon. I believe that two sites are currently identified that the authority will pursue there. Will the witnesses give us an update as to where that proposal stands? When can we expect movement on it and a second test centre in County Clare?

Mr. Sam Waide

I thank the Deputy. I acknowledge that, and he is correct about that site. There were complications with that site. The RSA and myself are committed to identifying an alternative. There are a few other options in the area. I do not have the details in front of me but I am more than happy to provide details and engage with the committee and share with it where we are in that particular area. Similar to a few other locations throughout the country, like many public bodies we come upon frustrations, whether it is contractual, planning, or other local issues that stop the development of a site. Ultimately, I am here to deliver a service to the public that sets an acceptable standard and meets the service-level agreement. It is in the RSA's interest to try to progress that particular challenge to get the solution, albeit there is third-party providers involved. It is in our interest. I am here to deliver that service to those people and not just in that particular area but also across the whole country. I am happy to provide a detailed update to the Deputy and to the committee on that.

I welcome that. It would be very welcome if the RSA could provide that full brief, with different timelines outlines, and when the motoring public can expect such a service to be provided in Shannon.

While Mr. Waide is looking at County Clare, there is probably a need for a third centre in the west of the county in somewhere like Kilrush. Perhaps he and his officials could have a look at that proposal to provide that test centre there. A colleague of mine, Councillor Gabriel Keating, has been pushing that for some time. I ask that the RSA would look at that again.

Mr. Sam Waide

Yes, we will. This is against the context of my earlier point about the unrelenting demand for this service. It is not just about reviewing the here and now; it is also about the next five years plus. We are in an environment where we are growing as a country. We do need to consider the service provision for that growth. I welcome the opportunity to provide more details.

On the NCT tests, what is the RSA's ambition or target to reduce that figure? The current delays are unacceptable.

Mr. Sam Waide

To recap, the current wait time is 24.5 days on average. These are calendar days and not working days. We have a plan and we have been in detailed discussion to implement this plan. I have shared details on this. On the Deputy's question around the ultimate wait for an NCT test, which is to restore it to 12 days, I will ask Mr. Walsh to come in.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

We have a plan, working with Applus+ to get the waiting time back down to 12 days, which is the minimum requirement from the RSA's perspective. This is the service level agreement we have with the supplier.

What number of days are they supposed to do under the contract?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Below 12.

If they get above 12, are they hit with a penalty?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Within the contract there are conditions that allow us to put in place certain measures for non-performance on that contract. Because it is a commercially sensitive agreement, it is not something we would be willing to discuss here. I can say, however, that there are mechanisms-----

Do we issue them with penalties?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

We have leveraged the mechanisms within the contract, yes.

In layman's terms then, you have.

Mr. Sam Waide

Yes.

Mr. Walsh was explaining.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

We have a target to be below 12 days. to do that there are certain initiatives that Applus+ have to put in place, including the introduction of the additional testers that are coming into the country from Spain and from abroad. That will really help. Applus+ have also worked with their teams in place at the moment to increase the number of hours that are physically available for working. Those hours have seen a single increase. We had a reported 28,000 tests carried out last week. This has steadily been growing since we started the implementation of this plan with Applus+. We have a process in place and we are monitoring it. We are in almost daily discussions with the company around the performance and how we are steering them. We have a target to be back on track regarding the service-level agreement by quarter 2 of next year.

I received correspondence from representatives in the car rental industry. They are experiencing tough issues, particularly because of the supply chain of new cars. They are relying on older cars and there is a requirement for more tests. I can forward the correspondence on to the RSA but basically they are looking at a severe shortage of cars, which will have a knock-on impact on our tourism product. We also heard anecdotal evidence throughout the summer of tourists being charged exorbitant figures for car rental. Has the authority any plan to deal with that particular sector?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

From the perspective of an individual industry, Applus+ offers a service to everybody, whether it is a company car fleet or a rental car fleet. If there is a problem, we ask those individuals to engage directly with the NCT so they can maybe block-book a series of tests to move their cars in in a particular way. We ask them to engage with the NCT and they would be more than willing to work with them.

As I understand it, they have engaged and they are not at all happy with the response they are getting. There is no tailor-made response and no reaction. It is just, basically as Mr. Walsh said, to get in line. This is having a damaging impact on our tourism industry.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Perhaps the Deputy could provide me with some detail and I could look into it.

I can do that.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

It is an industry I know well and I would be happy to take a look into that for the Deputy.

I thank Mr. Walsh. I also wish to raise an issue that has been going on for a number of years. There were 40 driver instructors working in the field for the RSA. They were not offered permanent contracts. Their contracts were extended and extended and then basically came to a halt. It is ironic to think about all the delays in trying to secure a driving test, yet the RSA has these qualified people on its books who are more than willing to take up the job but they were not embraced by it. Why did the authority take that course?

Mr. Sam Waide

I may answer part of that question. Again, this goes back to a previous committee appearance where I described, as my colleague, Mr. Walsh, has also described, the demand. We all recognise the increase in demand. There is an increasing demand for this service. We have most recently completed an evaluation of the long term over the next five years. This demand is not going to reduce; the only thing it is going to do is increase. There are resources required to deliver this service. To date, we have submitted a request for the sanction of permanent testers, which was approved.

Since we last met, that evaluation has been completed. We have identified the need for additional testers, as Mr. Walsh referred to earlier. I would suggest that if there is a long-term demand then a permanent sanction is really required to deliver this service long term as opposed to having temporary arrangements.

What about that cohort of 35 testers?

Mr. Sam Waide

In terms of the sanctions that have been provided to the RSA, we are required to follow the process and the rules. In terms of additional requests, however, our intention would really be to request permanent sanctions for resources as opposed to temporary arrangements given that we have evaluated the need, not just in the next 12 to 18 months but longer term.

Specifically, though, for that cohort of 35 testers.

Mr. Sam Waide

Mr. Walsh can explain what will happen for the cohort of 35 individuals. We are duty-bound to follow the process. It is a challenge.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Those 35 individuals to whom the Deputy made reference went outside of the terms of their contract. From our perspective, the easiest thing to do would naturally have been to bring them in to the fold from a permanent perspective but, unfortunately, we had to follow the rules. We had to go to an open recruitment policy. That competition currently has seven individuals who are being tested today by our chief driving instructor. They are going through that testing process. Those 35 people were all welcome to apply for those positions we have available. We were duty-bound to follow the rules, however. It would have served us well and been easier for us just to take these guys on board but we had to follow a series of rules with regard to having an open recruitment competition.

I also received correspondence from a driving school in Mallow, I which will pass that on to the RSA, that raised serious questions about a centre in that area. This person wrote to the RSA and did not receive a response, which raises an issue.

Mr. Sam Waide

That is something I will take up personally. If the Deputy can provide the details, I will make sure that we engage with the individual.

Will Mr. Waide also come back to me?

Mr. Sam Waide

Absolutely.

I thank Mr. Waide.

I thank Deputy Carey. We move now to Senator Horkan.

I thank Mr. Waide for his opening statement, which I listened to in my office. I want to pick up initially on the national car testing service. Mr. Waide said the average lead-in time for an appointment for tests is currently 24.5 days. I am online at the moment looking at dates. The booking system is telling me the earliest slot is 19 April for Deansgrange and 3 May for Drogheda. There are very few anywhere; I cannot find any. The closest date for Kells is 7 February. This is real-time information; I am literally clicking through now. I put in the registration of my family car and I am looking at the test dates. These are random. Letterkenny-----

I thought the cars had to be a lot less than four years old.

I thank the Chairman for his input, but I am trying to save the planet as best I can by keeping it on the road longer. The next slot in Letterkenny is 25 January. I can find nothing within 24.5 days anywhere. Where does this figure of 24.5 days come from? This is based on what is available online. I presume the vast number of the RSA's customers do this first before they ring in a panic to get on a priority list, which is what I did over the summer for my own car. I know a person can go in at perhaps midnight or 2 a.m. and find some slots that have been released, but why is the website telling me that these dates are the earliest I can get? It is early October. The next date in my closest centre is six months away.

Mr. Sam Waide

Okay.

In Drogheda, where Deputy Ó Murchú is from, it is further away than that. What is the explanation for Mr. Waide's figures versus what is online?

Mr. Sam Waide

If I may, I will first tell Senator Horkan how a person is alerted for an NCT. All of our customers receive a notification 90 days prior to the due test date. We encourage customers to book a test either online or by contacting an NCT call centre when they receive that notification. There are recurring reminders for those who do not act on that. My colleague, Mr. Walsh, can share the details of those intervals of when people are given a gentle prompt to tell them they have not booked a test. We encourage this, and that is what Applus+ encourages on the NCT website. We also give that guidance and advice to customers on the RSA website. In terms of Senator Horkan looking at the website here and now to try to book a test, I will pass over to my colleague to go into the details and answer his question on how the average of 24.5 days comes about.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

I thank Mr. Waide. The Senator is currently looking at the tests that have been released by Applus+. They are the testing slots. At any moment in time on the website, only approximately only one third of the slots are released in advance. If a person's vehicle is not due a test for, let us say, six months, we are looking at a test date in the future for that person's vehicle. Therefore, a test date will be allocated that is closer to the time of when the test is required for a person's vehicle. As it gets closer to the time, if a person is unable to actually get a test date that fits his or her need, he or she would contact the NCT centre and it will put him or her on the priority list. Senator Horkan referenced that his car recently underwent the NCT after he went on the priority list. His car, therefore, does not need one. He is only looking at a very-----

As it happened, the priority list was still quite a bit away.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

I do not dispute that.

Eventually, I found a slot that was in two days' time and jumped on it.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

The reason the Senator found that slot is because they do not open up all the booking slots at one time. They open them up in periods depending on the date that a person requires an NCT. In this case, the Senator's car does not need an NCT.

That is correct. When I did need it, however, and when I actually tried to do it within the 90 days to get it done well in advance of looking for it the week before I needed it, it was not offering me anything for six months at that point.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Did the Senator look at Deansgrange?

Yes. I also looked at Fonthill, Liffey Valley and various other locations.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

The Senator named our top three locations where we have a problem; I will be very open with him.

Yes, but that is where many of the cars are, which is obviously were there will be problems.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

That is where our testers will actually be allocated. That is where these new testers we have coming in are being sent.

How many people are currently waiting on an NCT, both on the priority list and generally? How many people are on the RSA's waiting list?

I will ask a linked question to that. How many cars are in existence out there that Mr. Walsh knows need an NCT and do not have a valid NCT?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

I can give both the Chairman and Senator those numbers. As of Monday, there were 31,605 vehicles on the priority the waiting list.

On the priority waiting list.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

We call it the priority waiting list. Then with regard to the number of vehicles that require testing, the figure is 355,985. Let me give some context on that. In a normal cycle of testing, that is approximately 200,000. Therefore, if we were within the 12-day service level agreement, SLA, to get a car tested out, the number of tests that can actually be carried out is normally approximately 200,000. That is the number of cars that would need testing at that time. We never have a figure of zero. If we look at the average-----

Surely, under the law, people are supposed to get tested before their certificate expires. Is Mr. Walsh telling me that at the moment, there are 355,000 cars most likely being driven around with a certificate that has expired?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

No, I am saying that the 355,000-----

That is the figure I am asking about.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Those are 355,000 cars that need to have a test carried out within the next 90 days and also, yes, some of them will go over.

The questing I am asking is how many cars are out there with a certificate that has expired?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Physically expired; I am not 100% certain.

I just mean expired. They are-----

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Yes, expired.

Their certificates expired on 29 September or 8 October and their owners have not yet presented for a new test. The RSA's database must tell us how many cars are in existence. I accept that some of them could be off the road or whatever. Obviously, if a person is scrapping them and so on, he or she would do all the documentation for that.

I will just add to that. The 31, 605 vehicles on the priority list all have appointment dates. Is that correct?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Yes, they all have appointment dates.

Those on the waiting list do not have appointment dates. They are waiting to get an appointment.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

They have requested an appointment and my understanding is that they have an appointment date.

They do have an appointment date. Have the 355,985 vehicle owners applied for an appointment?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

They are vehicle owners that have been notified that they require a test and have been requested to log on and book one. Some of them will have appointments, as with the example mentioned, several months in advance-----

I want to nail this down, if I can. If I ring this morning and say that I need a test, they will tell me that they will put me on the priority waiting list. At that point, I do not have a test date. I am just on a list, waiting to be given a test date.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Yes and that figure will change throughout the day, as they are releasing tests-----

I accept that but there are 31,000 people, or thereabouts, who have rung up and asked for a test and have not yet been given a date for one. There is another group of people who have been allocated a test but who have not taken it yet. Then there is another group of people who have not even looked for a test and their certificate has expired. How many people are in the last group?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

The figure of 355,000 is everything-----

Yes, but I am interested in the people who are driving around now without a certificate, not the people who will need a test in three weeks' time or three months' time. How many cars are on the road with an expired certificate?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

There are 355,000 vehicles with an expired certificate or a certificate that will expire within 90 days.

I am not interested in the 90-days group.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

I cannot tell the committee how that is split.

Mr. Sam Waide

We can certainly provide that information. To answer the specific question, we can provide that number-----

One is totally legal if one is taking a test today and one's certificate expires tomorrow. It is not a problem driving the vehicle today. However, if the certificate expired yesterday, it is legally a problem.

Just to clarify, the 31,605 figure is for those that have appointments. The 355,985 figure is the total number of cars, outside of the 31,605, that have received a 90-day notice to make an appointment. Is that correct?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Yes.

That is 387,590 in total. The key question is how many of the 355,985 do not have an appointment.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

I do not know.

You should have that figure for us today. It is unacceptable that you do not have that figure because we are hearing from the public that they are petrified about being stopped by a garda. There are genuine people who have applied for the test but will not get it before their NCT certificate goes out of date. They are worried about how members of the Garda and their insurance company will view that. We are talking about roughly 390,000 cars. The priority list of approximately 31,000 has, with all due respect, become a general list because everyone who rings up wants to get on that list. I do not want to eat into Senator Horkan's time but approximately 1.5 million cars will be tested this year. How much of an increase is that on previous years? There are 390,000 cars out there, or roughly 20% of the 1.5 million, awaiting tests. There is a serious issue here.

We are talking about 700,000 tests, or thereabouts, per year. Is that about 14,000 or 15,000 per week?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

No, the figure is 1.5 million tests. We are forecasting 1.5 million tests.

So the NCT is doing about 30,000 tests per week, or thereabouts.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Yes.

If there is a backlog of around 390,000 tests, some of which are within the 90 days-----

Mr. Brendan Walsh

If I may say, it is my expectation that a large portion would be within the 90 days.

There is a certain cohort of people who just forget about their test, ignore it or do not do it. I would like to get a handle on how many cars are out there that are two, three, four, five or six years beyond their certificate expiry date. How many people are driving cars with certificates that have expired who have not, to date, sought a test?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

We will get that information.

That would be useful to know because they are most likely to be the problem cars. Lots of people are doing their best. Some people let it slip, they get an email and they forget about it and I understand that but it is important to know the volume of cars on the road with out-of-date certificates for which no test is booked. Has the NCT considered 24-hour testing or starting earlier in the day? When I went down it was all very acceptable. I had one wheel nut missing. I went off and got a wheel nut and came back and my car passed but the centre was the quietest I have ever seen it. It was around 2.30 p.m. on a Wednesday and I was wondering why there was not more activity in the centre. On previous occasions the centre would have been full of people and cars but it seemed very quiet, especially given that it was difficult to get a test slot.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

I am delighted the Senator referenced that point because this is one of the challenges Applus+ has. Last week 28,000 tests were carried out but 2,100 people did not turn up for their test. That is-----

They will be fined when they do turn up but it is a waste of resources.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Yes. That translates into 7% of our testing capacity not being utilised. Unfortunately, the slots are there and people have made an appointment.

That is how people would get the slot. I know of a person based in Dublin whose certificate was due to expire on 12 October. The person went onto the booking system on Monday and the earliest available slot was on 4 January 2023 in Clifden or Westport, which is miles away-----

The earliest appointment in Drogheda is in May.

I am reaffirming the Senator's point. The next appointment in Deansgrange was on 18 April, which is six months away. The longest wait time was for Drogheda, with the next available slot on 2 May, almost seven months away. It is very difficult to comprehend what is happening. People are trying to book tests and while they might be a bit late in doing so, they should not have to wait three months to get a test. There are 387,590 vehicles in play here. In the main, most people apply for their NCT. I would hope that the number of people driving around with expired certificates is small. That is what the law is there for, to catch those people.

That is what my question is about.

We are talking about the law-abiding people who are fearful about how their insurance company and An Garda Síochána will treat them. It must be said that the insurance companies and the Garda are being very pragmatic at the moment but people are genuinely worried because technically they are breaking the law, through no fault of their own, because they cannot get a test.

I accept the pragmatism of the insurance industry and so on but people, by and large, do not want to be non-compliant. They are being forced into a non-compliant position.

Mr. Sam Waide

A few comments have been made and we have agreed to provide the information requested to Senator Horkan. We will provide information on the number of cars that should have a certificate but do not have one. It is important to bring this back to the reason we are all here, which is road safety. We acknowledge that there is a fear among the public around what will happen if they do not have a valid NCT certificate. In my opening statement and my earlier comments, I reiterated the importance of everyone making sure that their vehicle is roadworthy. We have stressed on the RSA and NCT websites, in order to alleviate the fear being alluded to here today, that if drivers have made every effort to get a test then An Garda Síochána and Insurance Ireland have confirmed that they are not breaking the law and will be covered. I want to-----

I would have thought it is more of a case of not enforcing the law. Technically, people are breaking the law it is just that gardaí are not enforcing it. The insurance companies are also taking a pragmatic view. Ultimately, this is happening because people cannot get tests on time. If I have a four-year-old car and I want to trade it in, no dealer will touch it unless it has a valid NCT certificate. It has serious implications for people's day-to-day lives. What is being done to address the backlog? We are chasing figures with the RSA today but the bottom line is that ordinary people are waiting an inordinate amount of time to get an NCT appointment.

Mr. Sam Waide

We acknowledge that requirement and need and we have shared a number of actions today with the committee relating to how that is being mitigated and how we are recovering the delivery of this service to the service level that people expect, which is 12 days. I am happy to go into more detail on that. We have identified the need. This is a demand and provision of service issue. The demand is there and will be there for the coming years and this is where the provision of additional resources have been identified, which we have shared in detail with the committee. Further resources and testers are required to simply meet this unprecedented demand that we have most recently evaluated.

Is Mr. Waide talking about longer hours, more buildings or what? As well as more staff, does the authority need more buildings or more opening hours?

Mr. Sam Waide

In simple terms, more tests are required. There is an infrastructure in place. My opening statement noted that there were 49 test centres. Provision has been made for overtime. One can have an NCT test done any day of the week, including Sundays but not everyone in any organisation and workforce wants to work overtime. They may do this work sometimes, perhaps coming up to Christmas, but that is not a sustainable model. With the seven- days testing regime, staff need time off. There is not just about the working time directive but there is also the issue of the health and well-being of staff providing any service.

I want to make one point and then ask about foreign licences. It seems that we have a structural history here, where Mr. Waide has outlined that we have more and older cars and people are finding it hard to get new cars. Perhaps electric cars will make it a whole deal easier because there are less moving parts to test, etc., in the long run. Does the authority need more buildings, as well as more staff, and more lanes, and do those lanes need to be operable, whether for 24 hours or 20 hours, together with shiftwork? I am not asking people to work these hours but businesses like restaurants, pubs, or cinemas deal with customers at times when they want to be dealt with and some people find it difficult to get out of work, and so on.

I echo the point that Deputy Carey made in respect of the car rental sector. The authority need to liaise with it directly. People have written back to car rental companies and have more or less said that it is what it is but they are having problems sourcing new cars and they want to be able to give tourists cars that are NCT tested.

On the point of the foreign licences, can an EU citizen drive in Ireland with their own certificate and driver's licence? I presume there is no issue with that. On that basis, why are so many Romanians switching licence if the Romanian licence is perfectly valid?

I make this next point because the Moldovan ambassador raised it with me with me, but what can the authority do to help the many Moldovans in Ireland who want recognition of their licences? Mr. Waide has mentioned North Macedonia but what about Moldova and what can be done to improve the liaison? There are approximately 30,000 Moldovans in Ireland, some of whom have Romanian licences but many do not, and we are constantly being told that there is a shortage of drivers in the freight industry, in Dublin Airport, and pretty much across every industry that need drivers. Yet we have people who cannot get licences in Ireland because we do not seem to have recognition. What is the challenge there?

Mr. Sam Waide

Whatever the country, whether it is Moldova or any other, I will keep coming back to road safety. We carry out a detailed assessment on all of those countries and a comparison of the standards and curriculum in them compared to Ireland. In the context of my opening statement and the fatalities on our roads, it is my job and duty in the RSA to ensure that we maintain that standard. To answer the Senator’s question directly on Moldova, it follows like all the other countries, where we follow a process of assessment and deem their standard either equivalent, or otherwise.

Has the authority carried out that exercise for Moldova?

Mr. Sam Waide

That exercise is in train. When that is completed, we can share the outcome with the committee.

If they are great at doing this job or if they are not, presumably the authority can give the authorities there the guidelines as to how they must improve their system so that they will meet the required standards.

Mr. Sam Waide

Absolutely, because this is not just about citizens of Ireland but, as I referred to earlier, it is about customers, people visiting Ireland, refugees coming to Ireland, and it is about ensuring that those countries are aware of our standards.

We are all passionate about road safety. Mr. Waide attended before the committee in June and I asked him about the average testing and the issues on the N7. I believe what the authority is doing there is brilliant and I commend the authority on all its work but most people want to drive in compliance with the law. Let us all try to ensure that both on driver licences and on NCTs - I did not touch on driver licences - that we all do our best.

Mr. Sam Waide

I thank the Senator.

On the final point made there by the Senator, what is the position with South Africa? I have had many inquiries and industries are short of drivers. There are drivers available in the country from South Africa but they cannot go on the road. What is the issue with the South African drivers?

Mr. Sam Waide

I will pass the question to my colleague, Mr Walsh.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

To date this year, we have received 1,618 applications for exchange licences from South Africans. Some 90% of those have been processed, that is, most of them, and this has been done within 24 days, which is faster than we are doing with driver's licences from other countries. There are, however, instances where we have some problems with the South African authority in trying to secure the information about the person who is looking for the exchange licence.

Can I add to that, Mr. Walsh, please, with Deputy Lowry’s indulgence? This is coming up for us all of the time with bringing in drivers, in particular, from the South African area.

We have had a look at the process and there are two elements to this. Companies must apply for a visa through the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment for the driver. Our understanding is that the Department will go to the RSA, which will then contact the authorities in South Africa to check that the licence is in order before the Department will issue a visa. Yet, when the drivers get the visa and comes to Ireland, they can only then apply for the exchange of their licence, that is, when they are physically present in Ireland, and the RSA seems to go through the exact same process again, when in fact the authority has done the due diligence on the licence in order for the visa to be issued. The South African drivers come to Ireland, they have to get a personal public service number and a public services card, and then have to do test training. More particularly, before they can do anything, they must get the RSA to exchange the licence. That is taking inordinate time. Why is the authority doing this given it has done the due diligence work when the visa application was being made? From the operators we are dealing with, it appears that the authority is duplicating on this work.

The time factor in this instance is significant, from the moment the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is notified, the paperwork involved, when the drivers arrive here, and then to get the exchange done. This is taking inordinate time with the result that many employers in Ireland have been discouraged from taking on South Africans. The issue is that they are available and we have a problem that could be solved where the authority, it would appear, is playing a role in holding this problem up. I believe the authority needs to have a look at that in respect of the bureaucracy involved in it. Is there duplication?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Part of the reason for the delays described by members are down to the rules which we have to follow for driver's licences. We need to have the individual physically resident in the country and to have proof of residency before we can issue a licence. We have to ensure that the appropriate medical and eyesight reports are all done to the standard that we require. We would go into more detail when the individual is resident in the country. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment look to validate that there is somebody holding a licence, but we will then ensure that they adhere to the criteria to ensure that when they present on Irish roads, they are fit and up to the same standards as anyone else who is driving a vehicle, particularly for C and D licences.

Mr. Sam Waide

Under the Road Safety Strategy 2021-2030, a new forum has been created for the RSA to engage with the commercial operators referred to by the Deputy.

If someone is saying the RSA is holding up the process, I would say in a positive manner that I am determined-----

As Deputy Lowry has stated, we are saying that when people arrive in Ireland there is an inordinate amount of time before drivers, male or female, can physically start to work for the employer.

Effectively, they are here at that stage and the employer has to pay them, but they are not productive. It is a costly exercise while they the wait is on.

Mr. Sam Waide

If I may, we have that group formally established. It is a forum for operators to raise issues. This is a complex challenge. I commented earlier about the country growing and the demand growing for some of the services. I believe it would be a positive step to encourage the group to look at that, if need be, because this is a cross-agency and cross-Department challenge. It is not just about transport and the RSA, as the Chair rightly pointed out, it is intertwined with visas being processed. I suggest that it would be a positive step to review this in more detail and identify how the timelines can be addressed. That is my offer.

I appreciate that. Like my colleagues, I also want to mention the fact that there is a problem in the car rental sector and car providers that must be examined. I will not rehash it, but previous speakers outlined the difficulties in the sector. I got a letter from one of those companies and I got a response from the RSA to it. The response from the RSA effectively said: this is a problem, we have delays, we are overworked, we are overburdened and the company would have to sit in the queue the same as everybody else. This is a vital sector in the economy and I suggest that the RSA should meet with it, sit down and see if they can come to an arrangement and agreement with them to process the vehicles a bit quicker. In fairness, I believe they merit special attention. There must be some way that the RSA can expedite matters.

I also wish to ask about the database and the Garda authorities. Could Mr. Waide explain to us how that works? Questions were asked earlier about the 31,600 who are waiting and the 355,000 who are in the queue. I am aware from some of my constituents that not all gardaí are taking a lenient view and tickets and penalty points are being issued to people who through no fault of their own do not have an NCT test. What information are the gardaí getting when they go to the RSA database?

Mr. Sam Waide

First, may I say that the RSA communicated with An Garda Síochána's roads policing unit about the position.

When was this?

Mr. Sam Waide

I can confirm the date-----

Roughly?

Mr. Sam Waide

Roughly, that was at least three months ago, but I will confirm when that was the case. The roads policing unit of An Garda Síochána is aware of that. The last time I was before the committee, Chief Superintendent Hennebry confirmed that the Garda is aware of the leniency that is being provided to people on the road. I cannot recall exactly when the committee meeting was. We reiterate that message. I meet An Garda Síochána on a regular basis and we can assure the committee that the regional assistant commissioners, not just those involved in the roads policing unit, are aware of that and make sure that it is understood and disseminated to local Garda officers so that it is not the case. I am not aware of a particular case, but I can commit to that.

It is obviously at the discretion of the garda involved and what I find is that it is not being equally applied. We have cases where people have not had an NCT test, through no fault of their own, and are getting penalty points and fines. I presume from what Mr. Waide says, that every garda has access to the database and he or she can see the status of an NCT applicant who is being questioned on the side of the road. Is that what happens in practice?

Mr. Sam Waide

Yes, we have asked customers to have evidence that they have requested an NCT. That is-----

That is not the question Deputy Lowry is asking. He is asking if a garda who is on the side of the road has access to the RSA's database that shows the owner of the car in question has applied for an NCT test.

Do they have information on the status of an individual?

Mr. Sam Waide

Most recently, for the first time ever, the RSA has access to the national vehicle driver file, NVDF, as it is referred to, so having access to that means the information can be shared with An Garda Síochána and gardaí know whether a vehicle has an NCT certificate.

But will they know if a person has applied for a test?

That is the point I am making.

Mr. Sam Waide

My understanding is that they will not know if an individual has applied for a test, but what they will ask is for confirmation from the vehicle owner that he or she has applied for a test.

So it is not on the system. We hear reports and it comes up on our news reel that gardaí came across people with no NCT tests at a checkpoint. What I am asking is if the data system is up to date to the extent that the garda can put the number into his PULSE system and check in the RSA's system whether an application is pending and if the person is to be fined or to get three penalty points because the NCT test was not done, through no fault of his or her own. That is the point I am making. Rather than leaving it to the discretion of a garda, is the system capable of giving him or her that information?

Mr. Sam Waide

I can confirm what the precise data and systems are, and I can submit it to the committee.

If An Garda Síochána can go in and look on a database and see that an NCT certificate has been issued, someone must have inputted the data onto the system. Is that Applus or the RSA?

Mr. Sam Waide

That is what I am going to clarify. My understanding is that there are two different systems.

Deputy Lowry's point is a very straightforward and common-sense one. If, through no fault of its own, the RSA has major delays, in the modern world it should be possible to input on the system that an application has been lodged with the NCT for a test. Has the RSA not even considered that given the current climate?

Mr. Sam Waide

We have. There are three data sets on An Garda Síochána's PULSE information in terms of vehicles: the motor tax of the vehicle data set; the NCT data set and; the NVDF in the Department.

Currently, what system does the NCT certificate sit on? We assume the bulk of the 387,590 people currently have applications for a test, without being called. Surely, it is possible for the RSA and the NCT to input that on a system so that it will come up on An Garda Síochána's system as well when at the roadside?

Mr. Sam Waide

In terms of the question: Is it possible? Absolutely. Is it in place right now? It is not.

Why not?

Mr. Sam Waide

One of the groups that has been set up as part of the road safety strategy is a data enabling group. Its make-up is cross agency and includes An Garda Síochána, the Road Safety Authority, TII and all of the organisations.

It is an area in which we are striving to have these datasets joined up so that everyone has access. There is significant data sharing challenges in our system.

That answer seems way too complicated for me. I ask Mr. Waide to listen as this is very straightforward. We request, on behalf of Deputy Lowry, that the RSA finds a mechanism whereby, for anyone who has applied for a national car test, their details are on a computer system that can be accessed by An Garda Síochána so that when a garda stops a vehicle these details can be viewed straight away. With the best will in the world a range of people apply for an NCT many of whom may have forgotten about their application and people are reliant on how their NCT status is received by the Garda although individual gardaí are very good. If information on NCT applications was visible to the Garda it would avoid ambiguity and dispel confusion. Based on the fact that the RSA has caused the delay then it should be possible for the RSA to reduce anxiety for people by putting this information on a computer system so a garda can see that an application for an NCT has been made and, therefore, the person in the vehicle is compliant and the garda can wave them on.

Mr. Sam Waide

I can give the committee our commitment that we will take away this request and bring back a solution.

It is important to do so. In response to my question it was said that a person can prove to a garda that he or she has submitted an application. That means a person must take the time to get their documentation and bring it to a Garda station, and a garda will use up time looking at that documentation. Gardaí can check whether a vehicle is taxed by simply putting in the registration number of the vehicle into a computer system and the same should apply for an NCT.

I wish to discuss NCT centres. Many people have told me that they have been refused an NCT due to a petty matter. How many retests are there? If "X" number of cars are tested then what is the percentage of retests?

Mr. Sam Waide

The highest rate of failure for an NCT is caused by defective tyres and I say that on the back of launching tyre safety week, which is part of Irish road safety week. In terms of the percentages of pass and fail, my colleague, Mr. Walsh, can answer and he will provide details.

I do not consider poor tyres a minor matter. Tyre safety is a fundamentally important matter. How many repeat tests are caused by the discovery of, for example, a cracked tail light or something very small? If there is more flexibility with the testing system does it free up other slots for cars? In other words, does flexibility improve the process?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

On retests, currently approximately 40% of vehicles that present would have fail items and require a retest. The reality is that many members of the general public use the NCT as a way to discover whether their vehicle needs something repaired and then they bring the list to a garage workshop for repair work to be carried out. From my experience, having worked in the motor industry, that is what I have seen over my entire career. People make the journey to a NCT centre to see what needs to be done and then will bring their vehicle to a garage for repairs. That is why we have quite a high level of fails, which require retests.

That is a huge issue when 40% of capacity is taken up with retesting. There must be some way to educate the public and ensure that they arrive with a vehicle in the condition required to pass an NCT. Mr. Walsh has said that people undertake an NCT to get a free diagnosis and retest when the repairs have been made which is a scenario that chokes the system.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

The Deputy has mentioned an issue that is very close to my own heart. The retest can be carried out in 60 seconds whereby one checks, say, that the tail lights have been replaced and a pass certificate is awarded so people can move on. A retest does not take up a lane per se. I would love to see vehicles being presented for testing having a very high pass rate because it would mean that the vehicles had been maintained properly using local mechanics or whatever was needed had been done to maintain the vehicles in a safe condition. I worked as a mechanic a very long time ago so I saw that when the NCT was introduced many people used it as a way to assess what had to be repaired and then brought their vehicles to workshops and finally submitted the vehicles for a retest and, unfortunately, that culture still exists. As part of my new role within the RSA I will seek to improve that situation. We must educate consumers about the benefits of maintaining their vehicles before bringing them for an NCT because it will help us from a capacity perspective but it will also ensure that there is a higher number of vehicles operating to a higher standard than what is required by the NCT thus ensuring we have proper, safe vehicles being driven around the country.

Please excuse my ignorance about lanes in NCT centres. So there are 49 NCT centres.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Yes.

Do some centres perform better than others in terms of throughput?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

That is a great question. We have 109 lanes within the 49 test centres. I am currently working with Applus+ to understand the productivity rate in workshops because we can improve that with our current manpower and we do not need to bring in extra people. I am working with Applus+ on that body of work. My background is very much of that ilk and the first thing that I asked Applus+ to do was to evaluate workshops. Applus+ will work through each of the centres to identify productivity, how each individual is utilised within those environments, work with individuals and people should work with their testers on the ground to increase productivity and maximise the 109 lanes.

That is a vital piece of work.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

I totally agree.

Earlier Senator Horkan asked for a solution and wondered whether it was new centres, new lanes or additional testers. I think that the first priority in any business is to maximise potential and productivity.

Mr. Sam Waide

Yes, productivity is being looked at. The test is changing slightly but, broadly speaking, it is fairly standardised. Yes, onboard diagnostics will be introduced. I am confident, broadly speaking, that productivity is there or thereabouts. I acknowledge, particularly concerning demand and throughput, that it is about increasing capacity and that is a fundamental that needs to be addressed. It is up to the RSA and Applus+ to address the fundamental capacity to ensure there is throughput.

Before seeking increased capacity, which will probably be required, the RSA needs proof. If I were sat on the other side of the desk when the RSA sought "X" amount of money to increase capacity then the first thing that I would ask is whether the RSA has utilised and maximised its existing capacity.

Mr. Sam Waide

I fully agree.

From what Mr. Walsh has said I believe that he might have a feeling that it is not. I believe that capacity needs to be examined thoroughly in order to get an accurate result.

One would have to walk the 109 lanes, Deputy.

I thank the witnesses. Mr. Walsh mentioned the cultural piece where people use an NCT as a diagnostic and then either they or a mechanic carries out any repairs. He framed that culture as a problem and obviously it has an impact on resources. I would have thought that the culture was born out of people getting their vehicle serviced, going for an NCT but issues arise and then people have to bring their vehicle to a mechanic the next time around. Am I being reasonable to suggest that the culture has been born out of that experience? If so, then is there a piece of work to be done with garages and consumers?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Is the Deputy referring to servicing a vehicle or the service of the NCT?

Servicing a vehicle. Most people want to get their vehicle through the NCT but, in my understanding, from people I have spoken to, they got the car serviced, they went for the NCT and it did not get through, and they then had to do it again. A culture has arisen out of that whereby people say they will throw the vehicle in for a test, see what comes up and then have the car serviced. Is there work to be done whereby there would be mechanics in communities and businesses who are attuned to the demands of the NCT?

Mr. Sam Waide

I might come in there. It is a very good question. This is a discussion I have had most recently with one of the auto providers in the context of us sharing the NCT information, which would inform the industry. As the Deputy rightly pointed out, it informs the mechanics and the garages that these are the components of the vehicle or its functionality aspects that typically fail in a given brand of vehicle. From an educational, awareness and cultural perspective, it can only be a benefit for everyone that that information be made available to the industry and garages in order that they will be aware of the specific defects and failures, and they can then advise their customers. A person's local mechanic could advise him or her about a particular brand of car and any items the mechanic might know have a high fail rate. Ultimately, that can only be a good thing, with safer vehicles on the road.

Our guests indicated demand is increasing and is projected to continue to do so. They referred to 1.5 million vehicles this year. How does that compare with 2019, for example? Where do they expect it to go next year and in the year after that?

Mr. Sam Waide

I will pass back to Mr. Walsh on that.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

In 2019, there were 1.39 million vehicles within the testing cycle. This year, our current forecast is for about 1.504 million. The worldwide shortage of semiconductors is causing the automotive industry to significantly under-produce vehicles. In every country where that is having a knock-on effect, it means people cannot change their car. Members spoke earlier about the rental car business not being able to change cars. The rental car industry never had to engage with the NCT because it cycled through cars.

The normal cycle has changed.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Exactly. The landscape of our environment has changed significantly and, unfortunately, most manufacturers worldwide say it will not be until at least mid-2024 before normal supply chains reopen, which will result in returning to normal capacity. There are still millions of cars that were not built but should have been built and changed.

Do our guests have an estimate of what the demand might be in 2023 and beyond?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

I am working on that at the moment with Applus+, the industry itself and the Society of the Irish Motor Industry, SIMI, most notably. Mr. Waide referred to vehicles coming in from an import perspective. While I accept 2022 has been a relatively low year for imports, extraordinarily high levels of vehicles came in in 2020 and 2021. Some of those vehicles that were two years of age now fall into our testing cycle. If a new car had been registered in 2020, it would take two years before it would fall into that testing cycle. The environment has changed. The post-Covid world has changed and the importation of vehicles into the market has changed, as has new vehicle production. All of that will mean one thing - our national fleet is getting older and, as a result, we have to test more.

I take on board the point regarding the existing capacity and utilising it as much as possible. In terms of staffing, Mr. Walsh referred to 22 from Spain and a further 44, to give a total of 66. Is that the immediate ask or is there a business case for more than that? What is the workforce plan?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

If we exclude those individuals, we have 552 active testers. We are now adding the 22 and we will add the 44 before the end of the year. We will still require more testers because there will be natural attrition given these mechanics have the opportunity to work in other areas if they so desire and there is natural attrition when there is such a high number of individuals. Based on our figures for this year, I would say we need about 115 vehicle testers, and that is akin to the numbers we had before the pandemic.

That is on top of the 66.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

No, it is the total. The number we will require is 615. With the introduction of the individuals from Spain, who are coming to us-----

Did Mr. Walsh say 615?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Yes, that is the total I would expect. We are getting very close to that number but next year, if there is a growth in tests of 100,000, Applus+ will need to ensure it brings in 15 testers.

On the 7% no-shows, I acknowledge they are a frustration, as they are in the health service with did-not-attends, DNAs, as I know from my own experience, and there is an opportunity cost. Is the figure increasing or decreasing? Is there something changing and new about it or is it common? Is there a plan to try to reduce it?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

At one stage, it was up around 9% but that was predominantly because of Covid-related issues. It is now pretty stagnant at about 6.5% or 7%.

How does that compare internationally? What is reasonable to expect in that space? Are we an outlier? It would be interesting to try to understand what is behind it. In the health service, for example, it can be people on different lists and there can be various reasons. It would be worth trying to see what is behind it.

Deputy James O'Connor took the Chair.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

I fully agree. It would also involve engaging with Applus+, which is represented in several countries. It is a question we will ask it to determine whether our figure is good or bad and to seek an indication.

When do our guests expect to be down to an average wait time of 12 days?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

At the moment, under the plan being put together with Applus+, on which we are steering it, the forecast is to have us back within the SLA by quarter 2 of next year.

In regard to recruitment, driving licences and the delays, the Chairman asked about the RSA having to do the due diligence twice and our guests outlined the difference between the two occasions. Deputy Carey asked about the recruitment of part-time driving testers. On both occasions, our guests stated that they have to follow the rules, which are prescribed to them. Are they looking for flexibility in regard to any of that? They are on the front line and they hear, not just from us but from communities and industry, that we need to speed up these processes. Are they making the case, to whomever is prescribing these rules to them, that they are opportunities for efficiencies here, such as if the administration were done in a certain way, that would save time, for example?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

On that specific topic, yes, we did. We made representations to say we thought doing something in a different way would be more efficient.

Is Mr. Walsh referring to the South African licences?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

No, this related to the testers themselves. Deputy Carey was asking about the 35 individuals. We made representations to ask whether we could do something in a different way and we were told "No" because there were very specific rules that had to be followed.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell resumed the Chair.

Mr. Sam Waide

If I may, this is in the context of all employers struggling to attract and retain staff. The people who apply for those temporary roles do not just decide they want to be a driver tester. They have a genuine interest in contributing to road safety and the temporary arrangements are frustrating.

It is an employees' marketplace. If people have a choice of taking up a permanent role or a temporary role, that will make it challenging for bodies such as the RSA to attract and retain people, whether they are passionate about road safety or otherwise. It is a continual challenge and frustration.

Part of the case Mr. Waide is making is that these are existing employees. They are employed on a contract and that contract is essentially rolled over. Agency staff in the HSE who are there for a couple of years get certain credentials with regard to permanent positions. Is Mr. Waide making such a case?

Mr. Sam Waide

We are not going to break any rules. As committee members will be aware, there are rules to be followed with temporary contracts. I believe this comes back to the RSA putting forward a robust, strong case that there is a continued need and demand for that resource; hence, it is a permanent arrangement.

Has the RSA made that case yet?

Mr. Sam Waide

Having just completed a valuation of the immediate and medium-term demand, we have not yet made that case.

We have identified another issue regarding bureaucracy. There is significant demand for bus drivers and lorry drivers in the Irish market. Can Mr. Waide see anything in that system that could increase efficiency and shorten the time to get those people fit and ready to work? I return to the point about the potential for duplication of assessments in having an initial superficial assessment of a licence and a more detailed assessment. Is there any scope to increase efficiency in that regard?

Mr. Sam Waide

Rather than answer the question and throw out suggestions, I will instead make a commitment. This is a collective, shared economy. This covers Bus Éireann, the RSA and any other public entity or body, never mind private entities. We can look at that and share with other organisations to identify what can be done not just across transport but also across other areas.

Mr. Waide mentioned the forum that is provided for in the road safety strategy. The committee may pick up on that as a possible forum.

Mr. Sam Waide

Absolutely.

I turn to driver tests. What are the waiting times for driver tests? Significant progress was made on the average waiting time but it now seems to be slipping. Where are we with regard to the average waiting time? Is there a plan to improve it? I think the SLA provides for ten weeks.

Mr. Sam Waide

Yes. I will let my colleague, Mr. Walsh, respond.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

We currently have a waiting time of 15.5 weeks for a driver test to take place. That has significantly increased from this time last year. We are working within the RSA to scope out how we have got into this situation. We have looked at the number of people who are under training in the advanced driver instructor, ADI, curriculum, which is at an extraordinarily high level. In addition, we have added 125 new ADIs this year, to bring our total to 2,172 who are in operation. A further 139 are currently going through their accreditation. That means we will have the highest number of driving instructors ever. These individuals are becoming driving instructors because there is demand from the public. That demand will cascade into a requirement for driver testing. We are looking at all of the relevant data and scoping out a plan which will require us to increase the number of testers we have in play in the future. We will make submissions about what that looks like.

How many people are waiting for driver tests?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

As of the end of September, 14,148 were waiting.

How many does the RSA typically put through in a year?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

In any year, 170,000 is the norm.

How many would the RSA normally do in a week?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Some 3,800.

So there are 14,000-----

Mr. Brendan Walsh

There are 14,000 who are going to have a test. There are an additional 40,000 who require a test and have not yet been given a date. Some of those are still in training.

There are 54,148 people waiting for a test and about 170,000 are put through in a year. What was the 14,000 figure at this time last year?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

At the start of January, it was 12,755.

It is climbing.

Mr. Sam Waide

The 40,000 figure refers to people who will require a test but who are not ready for a test.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

They are still in the ADI cycle.

Mr. Sam Waide

They have not completed all of their training.

Some 170,000 are currently put through in a year. How many went through each year pre-Covid?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

I do not have that figure to hand.

By how much has that number increased?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

I do not know what it was previously but I will find out.

I remember the RSA being before the committee previously. There was a request for an additional 40 testers. We saw progress but we seem to be going in the wrong direction. It is important and if a case needs to be made to the committee-----

How many driving testers does the RSA have?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

We have 131 driving testers doing tests.

How many were there before the pandemic?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

I do not know.

How many does the RSA need on top of the 131-----

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Based on the number of people who are in testing and the-----

-----to bring the waiting time back to ten weeks?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

We need about 165 testers.

Is that in total? That is 34 additional testers. Some 35 testers are coming out of contract. If they were maintained, would the RSA need more? Does the 131 figure include the 35 testers who are out of contract?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

No.

The RSA just needs the number of people who have been let go.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

We are in the process of recruitment. We have some temporary-----

That means the RSA had well over 160 testers a short time ago.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

We did.

It is back down to 131, even though demand is going up. Why did the RSA not look for a derogation, considering how extreme waiting times were? Why did it not go to the Department to say that given the exceptional situation, it would renew testers' contracts for one or two years?

Mr. Sam Waide

We raised it on more than one occasion. We said we had to let them go but we needed that capacity. That is why-----

Did the RSA request a derogation on this occasion to retain these 35 testers, considering that we are coming out of the Covid pandemic? It seems ludicrous to the ordinary person looking in to see that the RSA let 35 experienced driver testers go and they have to reapply when we are coming out of a pandemic during which we had extreme pressure on the system. Was that request put to the Departments of Transport and Public Expenditure and Reform to allow the RSA to have a derogation to re-engage the same cohort on contract for a period?

Mr. Sam Waide

We had to follow the process, which is why we ran the recent recruitment-----

Who advised the process and indicated what it should be?

Mr. Sam Waide

The terms and conditions of the temporary arrangements-----

Could the RSA make a specific request to the Departments of Transport and Public Expenditure and Reform to allow it to extend the contracts, given that it is under such extreme pressure? I expect that many of the 35 people will be reapplying for the jobs when they could instead be performing driving tests with young people who are looking to get their driver licences. This is difficult to fathom in the current crisis. The RSA wants to reduce the waiting time to ten weeks. There was a cohort of experienced personnel. Why did it not just look for a derogation from the Departments of Transport and Public Expenditure and Reform to extend or renew their contracts or to do something to keep their experience in the organisation? Thirty-five of them are no longer performing any driver testing and the RSA's waiting list is constantly building.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

The Chairman's argument is precisely the argument and discussion we are having internally. We will have 130 testers on our full-time testing curriculum within the next three to four weeks. They will be permanent employees. Of the number I gave the committee, some are temporary testers and some are permanent. The request we are working on is for us to keep some of those temporary testers because we will need them. We are going through the process of hiring permanent testers. Where we can extend people's contracts for a period, we will enter into meaningful discussions with them to do so. The Chairman's point is valid - why let talent go when you already have it in place?

I might add to that. This committee played a helpful role in giving the RSA the opportunity to articulate that need. The RSA came forward with a business case for additional capacity, which we supported. However, did it not adequately assess the level of demand? The RSA is now preparing a proposal to identify the types of permanent staff it will need in the years ahead. It is clear that it needed more permanent staff this year than it had in place. Should the RSA have been preparing for a greater-----

Why did the RSA not foresee and plan for this last year? Why are we here today arguing the toss on whether it will bring back highly qualified testers to deal with the backlog?

Mr. Sam Waide

We have touched on how part of the demand was unforeseen. I am referring to the number of people, in particular younger persons, who need licences to drive to college rather than staying wherever they are studying. Part of this-----

With all due respect, Mr. Waide cannot blame the third level education system for the RSA's backlog.

Mr. Sam Waide

Forgive me, but I am not pointing the finger. Part of the demand was unforeseen, which is why we are determined and focused on addressing it now.

Putting this problem into perspective is important. I will give the witnesses an indication of it. I am from Cork East, which is a large area. I will take us through the NCT centres that people in my constituency use. My home town is Youghal, where the next available NCT appointment is 4 April. In Charleville, which is in Cork North-West, it is 22 March. In Waterford, it is 9 February. In Blarney, it is 3 February. In Cahir, it is 10 March. In Little Island, the earliest available date is 22 January. At a minimum, someone would be waiting the bones of three and a half months for an NCT.

Mr. Waide spoke about the unforeseen. This is all done digitally. Regardless of Covid's knock-on consequences, will Mr. Waide provide a legitimate answer for why this has been allowed to occur? It did not happen overnight and it seems to be a growing problem. I do not know what the answer will be in the short term, but something will have to be done. Will Mr. Waide comment on Cork's centres specifically? There is one centre in Cahir in Tipperary as well.

Mr. Sam Waide

To clarify, the comment on the unforeseen demand was specifically about driving tests whereas the Deputy is referring to demand at NCT centres. I will try to answer his question in terms of-----

With due respect, that should have been foreseen as well. Cars are not entering the country as quickly as they used to and people are holding onto older vehicles. Many more cars are now aged four years or over. The NCT issue is similar to the driving test issue.

I call Deputy O'Connor.

I will wait to see what Mr. Waide has to say, if he does not mind giving us some information.

Mr. Sam Waide

The Deputy mentioned specific centres, so I will pass over to my colleague, Mr. Walsh, who can share details on the volume of demand in the Deputy's constituency.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Was the vehicle the Deputy used to look for test dates in need of a test?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Did the car the Deputy used have a registration that was listed as requiring an NCT or was it-----

I will be direct.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Please.

I am talking about the ordinary NCT that is required for every vehicle after a specific time. The car used in this case was a Ford Focus that was over the limit for the NCT. That is the reference. If someone is booking a six-year-old second-hand car in for its ordinary NCT in east Cork, the options are 22 January in Little Island, 10 March in Cahir, 3 February in Blarney, 9 February in Waterford and 22 March in Charleville, and the bonus ball in Youghal is 4 April. That is outrageous.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

It is a similar question to an earlier one. The system does not release all of the slots that are available at a particular moment in time.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

To allow us to deal with customers who-----

Is Mr. Walsh telling me that the RSA is holding back slots?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

No, we are not holding them back. Applus+, which is the service provider, schedules the slots in such a way as to allow individuals who require NCTs to log on at different times. It will release a block of slots six months in advance, then bring it to three months. It will continually cascade down until the day a test is actually required. The reason for that-----

I wish to clarify because this is important. If I log on today, does it mean that the earliest possible date for the NCT in one of my local centres is on offer today?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

I do not understand the question.

It is a very clear question. If I want to book an NCT for a car today, is the earliest possible date on offer today? Mr. Walsh mentioned that the slots were being released in blocks. Does that mean that, if I waited until mid-November, another block of dates would be released that could be closer to this date?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Yes. Exactly.

That is insane. It makes no sense.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

It is the way that Applus+ is operating the business.

You would not see this in Westminster.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Applus+ feels that this is the best way to operate.

From an efficiency point of view, I cannot see the merit of that.

Is the priority list the by-product of a severe backlog-----

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Yes.

-----and the RSA has devised something to try to remove the immediate pressure? It is a symptom of a serious backlog that should never have built up.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

It is a symptom. Let us consider why the backlog occurred. Today, we only have 552 testers, which is down on the number we had this time last year. We have lost testers and, as a result, we have lost capacity.

There are shortages in every walk of life.

Whether someone is in the hospitality sector or transport - you name it - there are issues with hiring staff. It is just the way things are at the moment. To me, that system is innately flawed in terms of what it is offering people. If someone goes in any day of the week and wants to book an appointment, surely the fairest way is to give them the closest available date in a centre within approximately an hour's drive from where they live. Surely that is the fairest way of doing it, irrespective of this block release. Frankly, I do not understand how that was even signed off on. How long has that system been in place?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

I do not know.

Mr. Sam Waide

In terms of booking a test, when someone goes online, they can book a test in the closest test centre. This is similar to other services. They have the option to seek a test sooner than that and they can go further afield for that. We still have the priority list. There is a fairness to "first come, first served", so there is a fair system in place. There is also a reminder to customers with regard to the 90 days. For example, if the Deputy has a vehicle that requires an NCT, he gets a notice in the 90-day period and the 90 days is the closest he can book a test. He gets that reminder and he also gets subsequent reminders. That provides people with opportunities.

With regard to priority, if a customer for whatever reason leaves it quite late, it may be that they have a genuine reason. For example, we still have a priority list in place for front-line HSE workers and they will be accommodated as a priority, with that exception-----

Mr. Waide is doing a very eloquent job of winding the down the clock. I think that is a fantastic initiative, it is brilliant, and every single one of us in the Oireachtas welcomes that. If what I am about to say to Mr. Waide was not so serious, it would be entertaining. Mr. Waide referred to the closest centre. If I wanted to get that lovely Ford Focus in for the NCT in Youghal, the closest available date, as of today, is 4 April. Does Mr. Waide think that is acceptable?

Mr. Sam Waide

That is why we are here today in front of the committee. We have submitted the actions that are being taken. Is that acceptable? It is not acceptable because the service level is 12 days. That is why the RSA is working with and driving Applus+, the provider, to achieve that 12 days.

It would want to drive a little faster. This is a huge concern.

Mr. Sam Waide

We have set out specific mitigating actions to achieve the 12 days. As discussed earlier with other committee members, we will continue to reach out for additional interventions to return the service to what it should be.

I will conclude on this as the RSA has a lot of work to do and we do not want to keep the witnesses. We are also dealing with amendments that have been made to the criminal offences involved in driving. It is proposed that fines be increased and we are engaging today with the Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Deputy Naughton, in that regard. What concerns me is that because of the backlog, there are many drivers out there who need NCTs. For elderly people in particular, or those who may be classed as vulnerable, to have to drive huge distances from where they live is a lot to put somebody through. For example, Youghal to Cahir is an hour’s drive. If somebody in east Cork wants to go to the centre in Youghal, they are waiting until the middle of April. We can see how many people are going to be put in a situation where they are technically breaking the law. I know we saw deferrals around the time of Covid but there is a Catch-22 here. If we do not get this thing sorted, it is going to put a lot of people at risk of being stopped. Ultimately, the Garda Síochána has to and should do its job and, unfortunately, fines will be applied and people may be given penalty point notices as a consequence of these backlogs. I do not know how much longer the whole area of deferrals is going to be a runner in the Department of Transport when it comes to the NCT. It bothers me.

That is just a comment, not a question, but we are going down that line. A proposition is being made to increase the standard fine from €80 to €160, if I stand corrected by the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton. I know the public at large will have a lot to say about it but that is the space we are in. That is going to be the negative consequence for ordinary people, particularly those who will struggle to travel those distances to get the NCT. There is a case to be made on that and a bit of discussion is needed around it.

Mr. Sam Waide

I know the Deputy said it is not a question but I acknowledge his concern. We will endeavour to make sure that people get that service and do not have to travel any further than they need to. That is part of the mitigating actions and making sure that capacity and availability is local.

I welcome our witnesses to the meeting. I compliment the members of the committee on their questioning thus far. There is a real need for our witnesses to reflect upon the questions that have been asked and the issues that have been raised. I have been a bit disappointed with the responses we have got. Deputies Carey and Lowry made some very important points.

We got very interesting correspondence from those involved in the car rental sector. They specifically asked that the RSA and the Department of Transport would consider extending the current testing window and increase resources, which could add further to the system. Like Deputy Carey, I can present the email in the context of the issues being faced by the car rental sector. I do not fly a flag for them because I have no involvement with them, but we have received this email and, out of courtesy, we should respond. It is important that our witnesses recognise that, within the whole NCT and licence area, there is concern, angst, worry and hardship, as has been articulated by all of the members. I am from Cork, like Deputy O'Connor. We in the Oireachtas have been inundated with requests. At this juncture, I thank the customer service team in the RSA and those in the driving licence section and the NCT section for their absolute courtesy to members, to me, to my staff and to my office.

I want to turn to the issue of road safety. I thank Mr. Waide for his presentation. What does he think is prompting the number of fatalities to rise from the figure in 2019, not 2021, given we have seen a very proactive campaign by the RSA in terms of its new road strategy and its advertising campaign?

Mr. Sam Waide

First, my thoughts go out to the families, in particular the families of the 117 people who have lost their lives on Irish roads this year. As commented earlier, the second half of this year has been lesser than the first part of the year, but it continues to be a concern to the RSA, the Garda Síochána and other agencies.

On the Senator’s particular question as to why that has been the case, what we have found is that speed continues to be part of the challenge we have on Irish roads. This concerns the drivers of vehicles in particular, and almost half of the fatalities this year have involved drivers of vehicles. We have a number of operational actions that the Garda and the RSA are working on. We have maintained and increased our campaign and education awareness over the summer, and I believe that has had a positive impact, albeit collisions, serious injuries and fatalities continue. There are also actions within the strategy that we are progressing, one of which is a speed review group, and those recommendations are due in December of this year.

There are a number of actions and interventions in play.

I want to put on record my complete support for the Road Safety Authority and An Garda Síochána. I was vocal at the recent meeting of the Cork city joint policing committee with regard to GoSafe vans. Surely the positioning of GoSafe vans should be about saving lives and not about being a potential cash cow for An Garda Síochána or the RSA

Mr. Sam Waide

First of all-----

I should put this in the context of a number of locations and I will give two examples. One of these is the tunnel in Cork and the N40 heading eastbound towards the Dublin road. Is Mr. Waide familiar with this?

Mr. Sam Waide

Yes, I am.

We have roadworks at the junction at the Glanmire end of the tunnel and we have lane closures. Most mornings and most afternoons there are tailbacks. Why is there a GoSafe van right on the lip of the tunnel? This is one example. My second example is members of An Garda Síochána on the N40 heading west towards the Ballincollig and Macroom end of the road. There is a motorcycle member of An Garda Síochána with a speed gun on the left-hand side of the road just inside the hard shoulder in a very narrow part of the road in a 100 km/h section. To borrow the cliche, it is shooting fish in a barrel. I have campaigned for GoSafe vans and speed controls on the Curraheen road and on the way to Regional Park Ballincollig. It is a small road in a busy built-up area where people belt along. To be fair there has been a response. I am concerned at the positioning of the two speed controls I have mentioned. They do not help with road safety.

Mr. Sam Waide

With regard to the question about GoSafe vans being a cash cow, the contract is between GoSafe and An Garda Síochána. The RSA is not part of the contract nor does it get a financial outcome or benefit from it.

I did not mean that in particular to the RSA. I have to be fair. I accept that.

Mr. Sam Waide

In terms of GoSafe vans, the RSA shares information with An Garda Síochána based on research the RSA has carried out on speed and driver behaviour. We also share and discuss information on where collisions occur in the country and where traffic calming measures are required. Speed cameras, whether they are average speed cameras or GoSafe vans, do have a positive calming effect. I cannot comment on the particular positioning of GoSafe vans by An Garda Síochána. This is something the committee would have to raise with An Garda Síochána. I can say that-----

The website of An Garda Síochána and GPS navigation give information on collisions and issues of safety. I would love justification for the two particular speed operations I have mentioned. We can go to any website and look at any camera. At 2.55 p.m. on a Wednesday the traffic on the N40 heading east towards the Glanmire exit of the tunnel is backed up to the Mahon Point exit and beyond. For the life of me I cannot comprehend the GoSafe van there. I am a full supporter of the RSA and the need for road safety. I have had successes in terms of other locations of operations. I also mentioned this to An Garda Síochána when representatives came before the committee before the summer recess. There is no reason for it. At the junction at the Kinsale Road roundabout heading to The Elysian, there is a GoSafe van on the left-hand side heading towards town for no reason other than to create a revenue source for whoever. My fundamental point is that we are putting vans in these places when they should be elsewhere as part of our strategy to reduce speed. I am all for this. I have modified my own behaviour on the basis of safety and we should all do so. It is important that we look at how to work with county and city councils in the operation of these vans.

Mr. Sam Waide

I agree. All of this is of absolute importance to improve road safety. The RSA meets An Garda Síochána on a weekly basis. We have discussions weekly and sometimes daily. I will raise the points made by Senator Buttimer and his concerns and observations with An Garda Síochána.

I apologise for interrupting. I am fully conscious of the roadworks taking place at the Dunkettle interchange and I appreciate their significance. I understand the need for absolute vigilance and a slow-down mentality given the enormity of the works there. As we drive out of the tunnel heading towards the western suburbs of the city we have a 60 km/h construction speed limit. There is no construction work whatsoever as we head west. For speed signs to have an effect, there must be integrity in the speed zone. To see a 60 km/h speed zone with no construction makes little of the real need in other areas. For 40 yards to 100 yards after coming out of the tunnel, the speed limit is 60 km/h and suddenly we gallop into a speed limit of 100 km/h. There are no roadworks. This compromises the entire road speed system with regard to the need to adhere to speed limits because nothing is happening there. This damages the reputation of the RSA.

Mr. Sam Waide

There are two aspects on which I want to answer regarding to the concerns and observations of Senator Buttimer. He mentioned transport related work. There is a cross-agency group that reviews speeds. This includes councils, Transport Infrastructure Ireland, An Garda Síochána and the RSA. I can feed the concerns, issues and comments of Senator Buttimer into this particular group. I would also add in terms of locations that the matters can be shared with An Garda Síochána and I will commit to doing so. The particular contract is coming up for renewal. The Senator's comments are very useful and his contribution is welcome. This goes not only for committee members but also for local representatives. When they feed in their comments, we can collectively prioritise where the speed monitoring vans are located in future.

I am very conscious that if we had fatal collisions, serious collisions and minor collisions at any of the places or the roads I have mentioned there would be a real need but I do not see it as a case in the two examples I have given.

The 61 new safety camera zones came into operation at the end of July. We now have 1,373 speed cameras. Has data research been done on their exact locations?

Mr. Sam Waide

In terms of the average speed cameras, just to clarify, there is one set in operation on the M7. In the first two weeks of operation, the compliance rate recorded by the cameras was 99.7%, there or thereabouts. That is an extreme positive because it is has calmed the traffic on that stretch of motorway in that part of the country. The commitment in the road safety partnership - councils, TII, An Garda Síochána, RSA , Department of Transport and others sit on that partnership board - is to consider further average speed cameras because they have a calming effect on the flow of traffic, hence creating safer roads for us all. Does that answer the question?

Yes. I am very much in favour of that, to be fair to Mr. Waide and the RSA. It is important that we modify behaviour on our roads. Mr. Waide is correct that there is an increase, which is unacceptable. One fatality or one accident is a family member, friend or work colleague. We should always remember it is human lives and never condone bad driving behaviour. My comments, first and foremost, are about ensuring we locate the GoSafe vans or the Garda speeding presence in the right locations. I drive to Dublin and back to Cork most weeks and the safest I feel on the road is when on the motorway. I counted one Tuesday between leaving my house in Cork and arriving in Leinster House four speed checkpoints on the way up; on the way home on the following Thursday, there were three. Yet I could travel the roads near me where, between motorbikes cars, scooters, e-scooters and all kinds of things, as well as cyclists not behaving accordingly, there is myriad examples of unacceptable driving behaviour. The only place I really feel I will not meet any accidents is the N7.

Mr. Sam Waide

I welcome the Senator's observations. I am happy to facilitate a discussion between him and the assistant commissioner for roads policing. I know it is close to everyone's heart so I am happy to facilitate that discussion in the areas he flagged in the immediate term.

Do not think for one second that I am in favour of compromising road safety or reducing speed limits; I am not. I thoroughly support what the RSA is doing. Its campaign on TV and radio before the summer holidays was very strong and those striking visible images are ones we need to talk to people about more. In a modern world where our young drivers are more frequently on TikTok, other social media and especially Instagram than in listening to radio or watching television, that is where we should look to target them.

My observations are not meant to be those of a crank member of the committee but of one who accepts we need to have systems in place for speed and speed checks. The vast majority of what the RSA does is positive but I am concerned that where a slowdown speed limit is enforced and there is nothing happening in terms of road works or construction, it compromises its message and its ability to bring drivers with it. They see this there for weeks or months and nothing is happening.

I welcome the relationship with Taiwan, in particular, in terms of driver licences. It is important. I concur with members on the issues regarding the NCT and the driver licence that have been raised. I ask that the comments Deputy Carey made on delays in the car rental sector be followed up on. We all have received those emails.

I do not want Mr. Waide to think I am in any way negative or against what he is trying to do. I am trying to help him by ensuring we put cameras in the places where we have a myriad of accidents and where there is a history and continuation of speeding. I do not see it, maybe I am biased, on the roads I travel on, which I have mentioned. I thank Mr. Waide for indulging my comments.

Mr. Sam Waide

I thank the Senator and welcome any feedback that helps us prioritise resources, whether the RSA, An Garda Síochána or any other agency.

It is great Mr. Waide and Mr. Walsh came in. We are here today because the public has been on to us about the delays. It should have been foreseen but we are where we are. I want us to get to a point of having an action plan to reduce waiting times. I will take the issues in order.

Mr. Walsh mentioned there are 552 testers working in NCT testing centres. How many were there this time last year? He referenced the figure earlier.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

There were 611.

That is a drop of 53. That is a significant figure.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

To correct that number, it was 595, going from October.

Had it gone from 595 to 552?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Yes.

That is still a significant drop. That is a drop of 43 or 7%. Coming out of a pandemic after which there was going to be more pressure on and having gone from 1.39 million to 1.5 million vehicles, an increase of more than 100,000, will the witnesses explain how 43 testers were lost in NCT test centres?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Within the testing structure, I referenced at the beginning the strains that are particularly relevant to the motor industry regarding the recruitment of technicians and motor mechanics.

When were they lost?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

They were lost all through the year, so-----

The authority has 552 and wants to get 615; 63 is the differential there. There are 22 coming from Spain, ten of whom started this week and 12 will start next week. They are very late to the table. In that 63, are the 22 from Spain included?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Yes, they are in that.

So you are down then to 41.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Yes.

Will those 41 come from the Philippines?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

We have 44 people from the Philippines who have been granted work permits and are going through the visa process.

When were those work permits applied for?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Those work permits were applied for after 16 September because, unfortunately, when hiring outside the EU, there is a requirement to advertise within the state for a particular period.

When did the RSA start advertising in the state?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

It was before my time. I think it was probably around July.

Why did the RSA only start advertising in July? If the number fell from 595 to 552, therein lies a serious element of the problem. Yet, the RSA only started advertising for staff last July and only applied for the visas for the Filipino nationals to come in in September. Of the 22 staff from Spain, 12 are only on the plane over today. With due respect, this does not stand up. There are 31,605 on the priority list which, added to the 355,985, is roughly 388,000. I have done a quick calculation. The authority is doing 30,000 per week. That is 60,000 if you get people for two weeks. That means you have to clear a backlog of nearly 330,000 people on the waiting list for tests. How will that be done?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

I have looked back at these numbers and the number in backlog, as we refer to it, which is 355,000 today, averages between 190,000 and 200,000 at any moment in time, and that is going back several years.

That still gives you 190,000 over and above.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

The 31,000 are included in that 355,000.

I thought it was-----

Mr. Brendan Walsh

No. I heard you say that a couple of times. It is included within it.

So the 355,000-----

Mr. Brendan Walsh

That is the total number.

Let us say, 200,000. That is still 155,000 above the norm. How will the RSA pull that back to 12 days, when Mr. Walsh says there are approximately 200,000 on the waiting list, rather than the current 25 days? That does not bear out in terms of people going up on the authority's system. It appears the current minimum is three months. In some cases that is being pushed out to six or seven months at different locations. How will the RSA clear a backlog of 155,000? How long will it take? When will it get back to 12 days?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

The plan that is in place with Applus+ at present sees the returning to less than 12 days by quarter 2 of next year.

Quarter 2 of 2023, with due respect, is the bones of nine months away. How can Mr. Walsh justify that?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

I cannot justify it. I am here to try put in place corrective action-----

Why is the RSA not hiring additional staff? What is the capacity of the testing centres? There are 49 testing centres. What weekly capacity could they go to, if the RSA could hire as many staff as possible and work around the clock? Mr. Walsh tells me the authority is doing 30,000 per week. What is its maximum capacity?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Capacity is part of the an exercise I am carrying out with Applus+, as part of which, I am looking at the efficiencies of the individuals doing the testing. I wish to look at how they do the testing. Is it more valuable to have a tester-----

How long has Mr. Walsh been with the RSA?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Six and a half weeks.

Therein lies the rub. With due respect, the RSA is telling the public that it will be nine months before the waiting time gets back to 12 days. It is saying it only needs an additional 63 staff and that 22 of those are coming from Spain with the Applus+ operations - they are only coming this week. Another 44 Filipinos are coming in on work permits. When will they take up employment?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

They are scheduled to take up work in November.

It is a numbers game. When will the additional five centres in Shannon, Dublin north, Cootehill, Fermoy and Castleisland be set up?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

I do not have the exact time on a percentile level. Some of those centres will come online next year.

That is next year, again. I ask the RSA to go back to the drawing board. Nine months is not an acceptable time for people to wait. It needs to get on to the Garda and link in with its system. People are being stopped and some of them are getting three penalty points through no fault of their own. It is more difficult to get penalty points cancelled than to get them in the first place. We ask for that commitment. We also ask the RSA to back to examine the staffing levels. With due respect, saying that the authority needs to take on another 63 staff, when it has 256,000 people on the waiting list and a delay of nine months, is not acceptable.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

In addition, Applus+ continues to try to recruit locally. We are also pushing the further explore taking testers from their network within Europe. This is what we can commit to today.

Applus+ has 552 employees. It has another ten on board, which would make 562. What can it take within its current 49 centres, which is 109 lanes. How many staff could it take in total?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

I do not know the answer to that question.

Mr. Sam Waide

With regard to how many additional staff and-----

Can I put it in context?

Mr. Sam Waide

Yes.

The NTA has a contract with Applus+ to do the work. It is supposed to deliver within 12 weeks-----

Mr. Sam Waide

12 days.

We expect the RSA to enforce that contract. Members of the public are being severely discommoded at present. They are worried about getting penalty points at Garda checkpoints. They are worried about insurance. Most people want their cars roadworthy. I ask the RSA to back to the drawing board with Applus+ and see what it can do to bring this back before Christmas which is two months away. Can Mr. Waide give that commitment?

Mr. Sam Waide

I can commit to going back to Applus+ to identify what additional testers are required to restore the service to 12 days. I cannot commit to saying that can be done by Christmas because, from a capacity point of view, the service is run on a single day shift at present. A comment was made earlier about extra facilities. I have worked in an environment that was 24-7. It was three shifts per day, seven days per week.

Is Applus+ just a day shift?

Mr. Sam Waide

It is.

Well, I am sorry, but it needs to do night shifts.

Mr. Sam Waide

There is an opportunity to have afternoon and night shifts but there is a recruitment challenge. My colleague and I have explained that. Applus+ is the provider and is running the recruitment campaigns. It is-----

Applus+ dropped from 595 to 552 employees and only advertised for staff last July. It only applied for visas for the foreign staff coming in from the Phillipines in September. The 22 staff from Spain, with due respect, are just off the plane. We are public representatives and we have to call it as we see it. The explanations here today are not sufficient and the only way this can be remedied is to put the extra resources in place to bring it back.

Mr. Sam Waide

I will commit to going back to Applus+ and identifying what additional resources can be recruited, in as quick a time as possible, but there is the constraint of availability of staff.

With regard to driver testing for people doing tests, the RSA needs to re-engage with the 35 staff that were let go because the number of testers has fallen by that number. They should be a considerable factor in bringing the numbers up to 165. How long will it take to bring the wait from 15 back to ten weeks?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

My colleagues and I are looking into where we sit at the moment. After we have recruited the permanent testers who are in our test cycle at present, we will now look at where those individuals will be located. We will then see what additional resources we can pull from the current cohort of temporary contractors and seek to extend those contracts.

What is Mr. Walsh's ambition?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

My ambition is to have that problem resolved in and around the beginning of quarter 2 next year.

That is still too long.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Understood.

It needs to be looked at. Car rental companies, at present, can have nine cars in with the RSA at any one time and they are under considerable pressure to get cars through. They are going to sites with the public and, in many cases, ordinary members of the public are being pushed back. We ask Mr. Walsh to engage with the rental companies to see what can be done.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Agreed.

We ask that the RSA, with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, engage with foreign operators to see what can be done. It makes no sense that they can apply for a visa through the Department, at which time the RSA works on the licence and then, in many cases, wait many months when they arrive in Ireland before they can drive a truck. That makes no sense. I ask the officials to look at that. We will come back to the matter again as we are public representatives. We know the RSA has a body of work to do but what we have said here today is fair comment. It might be tough comment but it is fair.

I apologise for being late. It very often happens here that meetings coincide and clash. I will continue on some of the points that the Chairman has raised. What was to happen with the new NCT test centre in Shannon was raised a number of weeks ago.

Responding in the Dáil, the Minister, Deputy Ryan, said there were significant contractual difficulties and that negotiations on the site identified were at the point of collapsing, with alternatives being explored. No more than people anywhere else in the country, people in Clare are exasperated at the waiting times and at the stress they feel knowing their car could be stopped by gardaí at any time with their NCT certificate having expired. What can the RSA tell people in Clare and the mid-west with regard to advancing a site at Shannon or in that general region?

Mr. Sam Waide

We touched on this earlier. I acknowledge the frustration that, because of various difficulties, a centre at the site originally identified is not being progressed. The RSA and I are fully committed to exploring a number of other known and identified options. As with the other Deputy I conversed with earlier, I am happy to engage with Deputy Crowe. I have already committed to come back to the committee and Deputies from that region with an update on the process in respect of those alternative sites. I acknowledge there is ongoing demand for services in that area. We are committed to providing services in that region.

We would appreciate an update. I have been out to visit the building that was, at one point, touted to become an NCT centre. It was fully kitted out and looked every inch an NCT centre. It looks like the centres I have been to except for the branding and equipment inside it. The difficulties were not at the builder's end or the company's end but at the RSA's end. Is it fair to say that is where the collapse occurred?

Mr. Sam Waide

Without having all of the details in front of me, as CEO, my frustration is similar to the Deputy's. I can pick up the details of that and ensure there are no blockages from an RSA perspective. It is in my interest and in the interest of our organisation to do so. Ultimately, we are here to deliver service for the customers. I welcome any support. I certainly will not be blocking it, but we need support from other stakeholders, including the local council and any other authorities making decisions regarding the use of buildings for the purposes of the NCT.

Am I correct in saying the RSA requires 63 additional staff nationally? That is what is outstanding in terms of recruitment.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

That is what we have coming in.

That is what is coming in. I apologise. Has the RSA at any time looked at mechanics, men and women who work in garages throughout the country? They sometimes work 9 a.m. to 5 p.m., although they mostly work beyond those hours. They have a skill set and know their way around a car. Has the RSA at any time offered the lure to them that they could come in on a temporary contract to earn a bit of extra cash, which everyone would appreciate at this time? Has the RSA offered them contracts to take on some evening work so that these centres could open later into the evening to remove people from that backlog?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

I am sure the Deputy will be aware that, within most employment contracts, there is a requirement that employees not take on further employment. There would also have to be significant training involved in something like that. We would also run into health and safety issues with the individuals involved finishing a normal working day at 5.30 p.m. before going to another site. As a former motor mechanic, I can tell the Deputy that, when you finish your day's work, you are tired. If people were to do testing after work, I am not sure we would get the required quality and I also expect that turnover would be very high after what is quite an arduous training programme. It is something we could look at, however.

Mr. Sam Waide

Extraordinary demands call for extraordinary measures and we welcome the suggestion. As my colleague Mr. Walsh has said, we will consider it.

On a slight tangent, National Broadband Ireland, NBI, is fulfilling a huge contract for the State but, when you go down the highways and byways of rural Ireland, you will not always see an NBI van. You will see contractors and sole traders. Plumbers, electricians and telecommunications companies have taken on smaller sectional contracts and their vans are darting up and down the road. By the same token, in fulfilling a contract for the State, the NCT centres could look at innovative approaches. I am not suggesting trying to lure staff from main dealerships but surely some sole trader mechanics, who determine when they open and shut their doors and file their own accounts, who are tax compliant, registered and so on, and who have all the paperwork and qualifications, could be offered the opportunity. It would then be up to them. I accept the point that it can be a tiresome day. It is a very tough day they have, but surely some of them could at least be offered this work on a temporary basis as a way of bolstering what the RSA has on offer.

Mr. Sam Waide

It is a positive suggestion that we will take on board and consider.

I will move on to the issue of international driving licences. I have read through the list of countries we have partnerships with, and I have read about the length of time conversions are taking, but I will focus in on the United States. A woman came to my clinic in west Clare two weeks ago. The situation has now been regularised but, for a long time, when she and her compatriots from the United States drove the rural roads of west Clare, they were doing so illegally. While they were waiting for their licences to come through, they had to get driving lessons and get tested again. These are people who had impeccable driving records and who had never done anything untoward. In fact, some of them belonged to the statistically safest demographic, the age group from 45 to 58 years of age. They found it demeaning to have to undergo all of this training and testing in Ireland. On top of that, after getting a test, they would need an accompanying driver and an N sticker on their car. Many American citizens' partners or spouses are also American, so they do not have anyone who can travel in the car with them. Are they going to pull up at the side of the road and wait for a neighbour to come along and sit in beside them? The way this operates is absolutely impractical. I am not laying the blame fully on the RSA but can its representatives explain this? I read the list of all of the countries with which we have memorandums of understanding and whose licences we can accept. I raised this in the Dáil last week and the Minister, Deputy Ryan, said it could be too convoluted because each American state has its own licensing system. Will the witnesses give me their perspectives on this matter, knowing what they know about all of these other third countries and EU countries? What is lacking? What can we do here?

Mr. Sam Waide

As discussed earlier, we have considered this. It takes time to carry out these assessments. Again, I will commit to considering the issue. I recognise there are different states in the US. As per my submission and opening statement, we have gone through various states in Canada. This suggests there is no reason we could not consider and carry out those assessments in respect of any state in the US. That is something we can take on board and consider.

It is just very frustrating. I am from the mid-west but I am sure this is an issue in every part of the country. As a nation, Ireland Inc. is inviting in these multinationals and trying to entice and attract in big American businesses. The €11 billion package in the budget two weeks ago is largely based on taxes from these big companies. It is kind of what is keeping the country going. However, the employees and executives of these companies, the people we have headhunted to come over, realise straight away that the piece of paper from America simply does not work here. They are being babied and have to drive around with people in the car. It simply does not work.

Mr. Sam Waide

That is a good point. We can start with the US states in which those companies that have invested in Ireland are based. That is a positive suggestion.

I will conclude on road safety. I have tabled a parliamentary question on this issue but the RSA may be better placed to answer it. Cycling Ireland has a campaign it has named Stayin’ Alive at 1.5. It aims to have cars stay out from cyclists as they pass. However, there is no such campaign for pedestrians. In rural Ireland, it is very often the case that pedestrians have to stand up on ferns, nettles or brambles to avoid an oncoming car. It is a simple thing. It would be a good thing to have a similar national campaign with regard to avoiding pedestrians when they are out walking. Not every stretch of road in Ireland has a footpath.

Speed limit reviews are not within the RSA's remit, although road safety is. This frustrates me greatly. Speed limit reviews only happen every five years and are the domain of local authorities. However, the rules and guidance related to speed limit reviews are set nationally.

There is no mechanism within the five-year period to review it. Does that frustrate the RSA?

Mr. Sam Waide

One of the actions within the road safety strategy is a speed review. The RSA is involved in that group along with other agencies including An Garda Síochána, TII and local councils. That group will conclude its recommendations in December. I would be happy to share those recommendations. Speed continues to be one of the main causal factors of collisions, serious injuries and fatalities. I will welcome the recommendations from that cross-agency group.

What about the avoidance of pedestrians?

Mr. Sam Waide

Yes. In response to the Deputy's point about the 1.5 m distance, he is correct in that we do run campaigns. It is good feedback. It is aimed at not only giving cyclists that distance but also pedestrians. We are considering giving pedestrians a respectful distance. That is important.

I thank Mr. Waide.

Collectively as a committee, we would be very supportive of any additional resources the RSA requires. Whatever it requires, it should come back to us. We will support it in its endeavours with the Department of Transport or any other body.

This has gone over and back a number of times, so I promise not to repeat what has been said, and then I will go ahead and repeat every point that has already been made. That is what sometimes happens here.

Let us start with NCTs. We realise where we are. We know the situation as it stands. As the Chair stated, the timeframe that was mentioned is unacceptable. It will probably be the end of the second quarter of next year when the NCT backlog situation is sorted, as well as the problems with driving tests.

At the moment, when do I get sent a letter to instruct me that my NCT is due? In most cases, myself included, half the time we do not even look at the front of our windscreen to see when it is due. I only started looking when I got the letter, which is probably too late.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

It is 90 days. You receive a letter 90 days before the vehicle is due a test.

I think my letter was late. We will not worry about that.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

It should have been 90 days. Then you will get a reminder ten days before the test is due to say that you are booked for the test and to please present at such a time at such a test centre.

I got that. I could go through the process that everyone else mentioned about booking timeframes. It was due at some point in August that I cannot remember now. I did put myself on the cancellation list. Is that correct?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

The priority list.

Is the promise that a person is generally called within 30 days? I rang up. I was not sure whether I went on the cancellation list. Given the fact that I was not asked for a payment I wanted to make sure that I had not messed up. I contacted the call centre-----

Mr. Brendan Walsh

The target is 24 days as of now.

Is that still the case?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Yes.

Unless everyone on the list decides to go on the cancellation list, in which case it will not work. At the moment it is an option that is open to people. I must admit that I got it very quickly. I can admit at this stage that my NCT was probably out of date for a number of days but not for months. I will be honest: after I got notification, I first tried to get a test and I was offered one for one or two months later and when I checked a couple of days later it was similar to what other members stated. I was looking at between three and seven months. It was mad and involved travelling to terrible places like Kells, which I obviously could not do. I do not mean any offence. I will probably have to apologise to Deputy O'Rourke later for that comment.

That is where that is. The most important point at this stage is what the Chair has said, namely, that if the RSA has requests we will ensure we follow up in regard to them. It was mentioned earlier that there were interactions about the lack of testing staff. I assume that was one of the two issues. What was the interaction with Departments given that the RSA did not get to the place it wanted?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

From my own perspective, we must remember that Applus+ is independent of the RSA.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Is Deputy Ó Murchú inquiring about securing technicians?

Mr. Walsh has mentioned that particular issue. Anyone would say at the moment that no young people are going through apprenticeships.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

Yes.

Mr. Sam Waide

I think perhaps Deputy Ó Murchú's reference was to the request for more driver testers also.

Mr. Sam Waide

We have had ongoing discussions with the Department over the past 12 months at a minimum. We had put in a request for additional driver testers to be sanctioned. We did get that. As the Chair rightly pointed out, we need to go back. We have identified additional need and we must go back to the Department in that regard.

So quicker, faster, better. That is as much about the RSA looking and the Department answering and reacting. That is something we can follow up.

There is a particular issue with the driver test centre in Drogheda. Are we any further on?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

In relation to the driver test centre in Drogheda, we are looking at how we are going to provide a service to the people of Drogheda because we have a hard stop in February of next year on the current location. I have a meeting with my team on Friday to evaluate several routes that we have identified within the Drogheda area. Once we have identified the routes, the plan is then to look at whether there is an appropriate location along those routes that we can try to secure. In the meantime, our plan is to ensure that we can provide a continuity of service to the people of Drogheda. That is the most important thing that we want to achieve.

So by hook or by crook it will be business as usual from February on.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

It will be business as usual from the perspective of providing tests, but some of those tests will be done in other test centres. We will staff up other test centres while we are trying to look for an alternative site in Drogheda.

Mr. Sam Waide

There has been a significant challenge in identifying suitable locations in that particular region. The RSA has engaged with stakeholders and we welcome any further engagement with stakeholders, including Deputy Ó Murchú or others to identify potential sites. The lack of appropriate potential sites for service provision is frustrating for us as a service provider but not as frustrating as it is for customers.

I get that. The RSA should interact with anybody who might possibly come up with a solution. Who did the RSA interact with on the matter of finding a site?

Mr. Sam Waide

We have a contracted facilities provider for all of the services we provide. In the first instance, they are able to identify facilities in the commercial market that could potentially be explored. The difficulty with that particular region is the lack of facilities on the market. That is a challenge.

It is just about making sure we do not have a break in service. We must do anything that can be done from the point of view of finding the location. We only need to find one. It is just the case that time is running out.

People might say this is utter clientelism or localism. It is probably an issue when people have to travel to Drogheda. There is no NDLS office in Dundalk for people when they apply for a licence or to renew their licence. In terms of face-to-face contact, are there plans in the near future to have such a facility in Dundalk?

Mr. Brendan Walsh

We are going through a complete rework of our NDLS system. We have multiple sites, as the Deputy is probably aware, where there are different functions. What we are seeking to do is to see how we can harmonise that to best serve the country from a network perspective.

We are going through that process at the moment. I cannot tell the Deputy that, yes, it will be, but we are certainly looking at demographics and different towns and trying to work out how we can consolidate different centres into one.

As much as one might want to centralise, there will be an element of a sensible solution in offering people as many services as close to them as possible.

Mr. Brendan Walsh

That would help decrease our footprint, thereby providing a saving as well.

Mr. Sam Waide

Particularly on the licensing service, and I always focus on what other countries are doing, we are continually moving into a digital age, not just digital government. As Mr. Walsh alluded to, we are looking at what is possible to make it more effortless and seamless for customers. That includes accessing the application and renewal of licences digitally, for example, so that people do not have to travel anywhere. They can do it digitally, and that is again one of the considerations.

I have been over and back to the witnesses about a person who is looking to change what they claimed was a full English licence. It was in rag order, which is about as best as I can describe it. In fairness to the organisation, it has been on to the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency, DVSA. A solicitor also made contact because, in fairness to the guy, he maintained it was a full licence and he just wanted it transferred. He obviously had a difficulty at one of the NDLS offices when he provided this licence that did not have a picture. We had hoped we would get the piece of backup information from England, but that did not come. At this stage, I would have been happy with something that was a conclusive "No". I, or he and I, received correspondence that stated this was only a provisional licence, but it went on to say if it was a full licence, it could be green or pink and would be A4 in size. What he actually has is an A4-sized green licence. We also have a copy that states it is a full licence. I do not know what the story is about administration or whatever, but is this something we could revisit?

Mr. Sam Waide

I will not dissect it here but I am absolutely committed. If everything is in order in terms of the applicant, we should be able to resolve the issue.

Go raibh maith agat.

I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee at such short notice. I know it has been a rough enough meeting but, at the end of the day, we have a public role and everyone wants to get to the same end. Bringing the NCT waiting times back to 12 days by quarter 2 of next year is too late. Bringing driving test waiting times back to ten weeks by quarter 2 of next year is too late. We ask the RSA to look at what additional resources it needs. Ideally, we would like it to be before the end of the year, or otherwise early in the new year, that the waiting times are reduced to those benchmarks of NCTs being within 12 days and driving tests within ten weeks. We would be fully supportive of any additional resources required. We will follow up with the RSA on this matter.

We thank witnesses for being so open, which is important because the facts are the facts and, in fairness to them, they have been very forthcoming with facts. The committee is here to assist. It is a huge issue on the ground with the public because it affects every man and woman who drives. It affects businesses in a big way and has a daily impact. There are just a few issues outstanding. Ultimately, it is about bringing the waiting times down. There is that continual exposure, particularly with the NCT but also with the issue of insurance, where people are being stopped by members of An Garda Síochána, and while the gardaí are being pragmatic, people are getting penalty points and there is severe worry in that regard. We ask the RSA to interlink with the Garda system properly and effectively. At least then if a garda stops someone, it will come up on the system that the person has applied for an NCT.

I thank Mr. Waide and Mr. Walsh for assisting the committee in this important matter. Nothing here is personal; it is just a job we have to do.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.45 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 19 October 2022.
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