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Joint Committee on Transport and Communications debate -
Wednesday, 30 Nov 2022

National Aviation Policy: Ryanair

Apologies have been received from Deputy Matthews. The purpose of the meeting is to discuss Ireland's national aviation policy. We are joined by Mr. Michael O'Leary, group CEO of Ryanair, and Mr. Eddie Wilson, CEO of Ryanair. They are both welcome.

With regard to privilege, witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to any identified person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. Reluctantly, I will not permit a member to participate if they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members participating via MS Teams, prior to making a contribution, to confirm they are on the grounds of Leinster House campus. All those present in the committee room are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19.

I thank Mr. O'Leary and Mr. Wilson for coming before the committee. I am looking forward to constructive engagement about the direction of national aviation policy. Mr. O'Leary and Mr. Wilson are probably aware that we are calling for the national aviation policy review to get under way. A review of regional airports will commence shortly, but it is something we as a committee collectively feel strongly about. We are looking forward to Mr. O'Leary's and Mr. Wilson's unique insights into the aviation sector, particularly what they do in Ryanair. I call Mr. O'Leary to make his opening statement.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

I am joined by Mr. Eddie Wilson, the Ryanair DAC CEO. I am the Ryanair Group CEO. Rather than reading a long-winded statement, it would be easier and assist the discussion to take the committee through a few quick slides on what we are doing at the moment in Ryanair and in Ireland and our concerns about the current state of our national aviation policy. With the agreement of the committee, there are only about eight slides and we will go through them quickly.

The first slide is a quick summary of where Ryanair finds itself at the end of 2022, which is in a strong period of recovery from the existential crisis of Covid-19 or that Covid-19 visited on our industry. We remain, as we emerge out of Covid-19, by a considerable distance the lowest fare, lowest cost EU airline. We are seeing a strong recovery in traffic this year. Our year end is March but we are on track to carry around 168 million passengers, which is up 13% on our pre-Covid traffic. Our customer service metrics are at all-time highs, mainly because of good reliability and excellent on-board service delivery by our crews. We are investing and significantly upgrading our environmental rating. The Carbon Disclosure Project, CDP, now rates Ryanair grade B, an industry-leading environmental rating for a European airline. We expect that to rise to a grade A in the next 12 months as we invest in new aircraft that are much more fuel-efficient. We are also the number one EU airline for environmental and social governance. After the trauma of Covid-19, Ryanair emerged with a strong balance sheet, which has enabled us to make brave decisions about recruiting people during Covid-19 and continuing to acquire new aircraft which allows us, uniquely in Europe, to grow very significantly over the next four or five years. We are very keen that a significant proportion of that growth would be allocated here in Ireland.

Will Mr. O'Leary reference back to his opening statement to link the presentation with the opening statement? That covers the opening statement itself, which is a document we have to publish.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Okay. This autumn, we are operating from 88 bases. A base is an airport across Europe where we base aircraft, cabin crew, engineers and pilots, who stay overnight or live there. We serve 234 airports across 37 countries. The fleet this winter is at 517 aircraft. That will rise to almost 700 aircraft over the next five years. We are operating more than 2,500 routes with 3,000 daily flights.

Looking at the existential trauma of Covid-19, prior to that, which was March in fiscal year, FY, 2020, we carried 149 million passengers. If it had not been for Covid-19, that would have been 150 million. In FY 2021, that collapsed, and we have never seen a collapse like that before. We have been through the Gulf War, 9/11 and Icelandic volcanoes. At worst our fleet was grounded for two or three days. We were grounded for 18 months, as was the whole industry. W we were not unique. That is the challenge that faces us and Ireland as a transport and tourism destination on the peripheral edge of Europe. We collapsed to 27 million passengers in March 2021. We recovered a significant proportion of that up to March 2022, with 97 million passengers. That figure would have been higher but for Putin's illegal invasion of Ukraine on 24 February, which collapsed traffic in February and March and into Easter 2022. Since then, this summer we recovered strongly. In fact, we are leading Europe's recovery. We are the only major airline across Europe that has restored all of its pre-Covid-19 capacity and then some. We are on track to grow to 168 million passengers this year. Over the next four years, as set out in our submission, we expect to grow by another 60 million passengers a year. We want to put up to 25%, or 15 million, of that additional capacity in Ireland if the environmental and cost policies are favourable towards continuing to stimulate growth to and from peripheral EU member states such as Ireland.

That is where we need to focus Irish aviation policy.

Our concern about aviation policy is that it has not been upgraded since 2019. I know the committee is focusing on this and it is timely and opportune. However, it is remarkable that the current Government policy has not been updated. The last report is entitled the National Aviation Policy Second Progress Report, dated February 2019. It sets out clearly that Ireland's aviation policy is to enhance Ireland's connectivity by ensuring safe, secure and competitive access that is responsive to the needs of business, tourism and consumers. We find it quite shocking that the policy has not been updated since, particularly given the traumatic and existential crises that Irish aviation has suffered over the past three years. The policy has not been updated under the current Government, which took power in 2020. It is remarkable that the policy has not been updated to take account of the damage caused by Covid to Ireland's connectivity, the ongoing threat to Irish connectivity and Irish aviation from the illegal invasion of Ukraine or the likely impact of the current recession on air travel to and from Ireland. We are concerned that in that vacuum, or absence of an aviation policy, the Dublin Airport monopoly has returned to some of its bad habits. It currently proposes to waste €200 million building a tunnel under a taxi way that is absolutely unnecessary at Dublin Airport. No airline needs this and it certainly does not serve any customer. We are back to gold-plating or wasting expenditure here in order that the regulated charges at the airport can be inflated.

We need to take account of how Europe's environmental policy is damaging the connectivity of peripheral states. At Ryanair, we believe that all passengers should pay an environmental charge. Flying does indeed have a damaging impact on the environment but those charges must be fair and they should be balanced and fairly distributed across all airline passengers in Europe. Currently, they are not and I will show why.

The European air traffic system is a shambles. We saw that last summer. It accounts for about 90% of all Ryanair's flight delays and about 20% of our fuel consumption and emissions. The prize of getting some effective reform of European air traffic control, ATC, particularly for a peripheral country like Ireland, would be significant reduction in fuel costs and access prices for consumers, as well as a significant improvement in our reductions in emissions.

We are concerned that at the recent Sharm el-Sheikh conference, one of the solutions being proposed was to call for even more levies on aviation, which will damage the competitiveness and connectivity of Ireland and access cost to Ireland. While we accept that aviation must pay its fair share, aviation is not the cause of climate change or global warming. Aviation accounts for just over 2.8% of Europe's CO2 emissions. Marine transport accounts for over 5%. Yet we never hear people talking about this. When Sky News wants to show global warming, it is always an aircraft taking off and showing the contrails. It is never a ferry putting out of a harbour because one cannot see anything warming up. Aviation does have a damaging impact on our environment and must pay its fair share but it should not be asked to carry an unfair share. When it is asked to do so, peripheral nations such as Ireland get very badly damaged.

The slide on display is very interesting slide and I would like to explain it. It shows the airline emissions on the left-hand side. It is the airline emissions created by each of the major airline groups across Europe such as Lufthansa, British Airways, Air France, Ryanair, KLM etc. The blue element of the bar is the amount of those emissions where the passengers pay a carbon price or carbon tax. We can see that Ryanair and to a lesser extent EasyJet UK, stand out by having over 80% or 90% of our passengers pay an environmental tax or carbon price on their flights. The reason the other airlines do not is because of the extraordinary environmental tax exemptions that are being approved by Brussels, largely at the behest of lobbying from the major legacy airlines. The most polluting flights to and from Europe are long-haul flights. These account for 54% of Europe's aviation CO2 emissions but only deliver 6% of the passengers and they are exempt from any environmental taxation whatsoever. The richest people, the Americans, the Russians and the Chinese, flying long haul flights to and from Europe make no contribution whatsoever. The legacy airlines have very cleverly lobbied Brussels to also give them an exemption for transfer traffic. For example, the Vice-President of the European Commission, Frans Timmermans, is a great advocate for further environmental taxes on everything and maintains that the aviation industry should pay environmental taxes. However, the Dutch have many other alternatives if they want to move to and from Holland. The Dutch government has designed an environmental tax system in Holland which is penal but it exempts all the transfer traffic at Schiphol which currently accounts for 84% of KLM's traffic. Only 16% of KLM's traffic is point-to-point traffic at Schiphol. That is the percentage of traffic that pays the environmental taxes. They damage competition by saying Ryanair and EasyJet and the others that just fly point to point should pay all the taxes. It is fundamental to the competitiveness of the peripheral states that they begin to push back on this. We have had some success with the other European governments in Portugal, Spain, Italy, Malta, Cyprus and Greece in this regard. They accept the point that we are making. Poor Irish passengers or price-sensitive passengers, travelling to the peripheral countries of Europe pay an inequitable burden of environmental taxes. This is unfair when the richest people on long-haul flights or the people causing the most environmental damage, those taking two flights to get to their destination instead of one, are exempt. This needs to be challenged in Ireland's new aviation policy.

Ireland continues to lead short-haul travel in Europe. Ryanair is Europe's greenest and cleanest major airline, yet our passengers pay a disproportionate amount of environmental taxes. There is a myth perpetuated by some in the environmental lobby that the aviation industry does not pay a tax on fuel. It does not, mainly because it is flexible, it can pick up tax at different countries and they have not yet designed a way of taxing fuel. However, in 2019, Ryanair passengers paid €640 million of environmental taxes, airport passenger duty, APD, the emissions trading scheme, ETS, and all the others. That is equivalent to an environmental tax of €4.50 per passenger on an average fare of €40. Ryanair passengers are paying about 12% VAT, as it were, on our ticket prices in environmental taxes. We ask what happens to this money. We will deal with that as a separate issue. Europe's most polluting flights, that is, long-haul flights and transfer traffic, are entirely exempt. Short-haul peripheral airlines and our passengers pay 100% of Europe's environmental taxes. In the next five years, Ryanair is investing $22 billion in new aircraft. These aircraft offer us 4% more seats, 197 seats instead of 189, but they burn 16% less fuel and they reduce noise emissions by 40%. People ask what we are doing about the environment and the answer is that we are investing huge amounts of money to buy new-technology aircraft that are transformative in terms of reducing fuel consumption and noise emissions.

We have also set out the most ambitious environmental targets in Europe. We are committed to trying to get to 12.5% of our fuel being sustainable aviation fuel by 2030. We have already signed two sustainable aviation fuel, SAF, supply deals with Neste in Holland and OMV in Austria. We hope to sign another one with Shell tomorrow at an environmental conference we are hosting in Trinity College. We are committed to being net carbon neutral by 2050.

We are very concerned about what is happening to our environmental taxes. Ireland receives approximately €140 million in ETS revenues directly from our passengers, routed through them. Ireland commits that money will be spent on environmental measures and achieving climate reduction targets and I have enclosed some correspondence with the Department of Transport in this regard. More than 70% of this money is being squandered on the school bus fleet, which is neither environmentally friendly nor particularly fuel efficient. What we find remarkable is that it was spent on the school bus fleet during two years in 2019 and 2020 when fleet was not even operating. The schools were closed because of Covid. We fully accept that children have to get to school but that cost should come from the Department of Education and Skills budget. If the Department of Transport or the Irish Government is receiving these environmental tax revenues from Ryanair passengers we would ask that it be spent on environmental measures such as producing or procuring more sustainable aviation fuels at Irish airports or better still, helping us to subsidise the significant investments we are making in new technology aircraft.

We recently committed to spend more than $200 million over the next five years on split scimitar winglets that will reduce fuel consumption on our aircraft by 1.5%. In this market, where astonishing volumes of environmental revenues are being squandered on the school bus fleet or on unidentified climate finance projects, the Government is proposing new levies on short-haul passengers that will further damage Ireland and our competitiveness.

An aggressive and imaginative growth plan should be at the centre of a new aviation policy, not only for Irish aviation but also for the major airports. Recognising that Ireland is a peripheral location in Europe is central to that plan. We must be an efficient and low-cost attractive destination or we will not be able to compete. We will lose capacity and visitors. We need to drive down access costs to increase connectivity in tourism. That means we need lower cost, more efficient airports.

Airports should not necessarily reduce their existing charges but no money should be spent at an airport unless it allows the airport to offer lower charges for growth traffic, not just by Ryanair but also by the other airlines. If Dublin Airport wants to spend €200 million building a tunnel under a taxiway, it can do so but the cost should not finish up in the regulated asset base. We are calling for Dublin Airport to extend the existing pier D to have additional terminal facilities and the €200 million would be far better spent by the airport extending pier D on the north apron where the old hangars are. That is where the new runway is being built. Dublin Airport would earn more revenue from passengers and more retail revenue by extending there. Tunnels do not generate revenue for airports except in a regulated environment.

Ireland must be at the centre of demanding fair environmental taxes. Everyone in Europe should pay a fair share. Long-haul passengers who account for 50% of Europe's CO2 emissions should pay their fair share. They are rich enough to be able to pay. Short-haul passengers, especially those travelling to peripheral countries, should not be carrying all the burden. It is indefensible that transfer flights across expensive hub airports are exempt from environmental taxes. If people choose to take two flights to reach their destination, they should pay twice the environmental charge the short-haul direct passenger pays.

Ireland should be at the centre of calling for EU air traffic control, ATC, reform. Eamon Brennan, who has been running EUROCONTROL for the past five years with astonishing success, has been one of Ireland's great exports to Brussels. Sadly he is stepping down at the end of this year. He has done much to improve air traffic control systems across Europe but much more remains to be done. We compete with two other main aviation economies. There is one ATC system across the USA and the airlines do not even pay for it. It is paid for by the national Government. I forget the other one.

Despite having a single marketplace, we have to fly through 47 different ATC systems, zigzagging around so they can all get a little piece of the pie. The technology now exists to allow us to fly straight. We should be allowed to fly straight as we would burn less fuel, reduce our impact on the environment and pass on enormous savings to our customers. It is inexplicable. Europe should be protecting the free movement of people. When French ATC goes on strike, we have to cancel all overflights across France. The French Government uses minimum service legislation to protect local French domestic flights so the French are happily flying around but the poor Irish, Spanish, Italians and Germans take all the cancellations. When we apologise and explain flights are cancelled due to a French ATC strike, passengers think we are telling lies. The sun is shining out there. It is bizarre that the free movement of people across Europe in a single market is allowed to be threatened by the French every time they have these recreational strikes, which they have frequently in the summer.

They will be very happy with you.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Reform of European ATC would save approximately 20% of our fuel and would eliminate approximately 90% of flight delays. If we put these measures at the heart of a new aviation policy for Ireland in the next five years, Irish traffic will grow by 50% in the same timeframe. I will ask Mr. Wilson to take us through those numbers.

Mr. Eddie Wilson

We had our strongest summer ever in Dublin this year. We reacted to lower airport charges which came in as part of the Dublin Airport traffic recovery support scheme, TRSS. We flew three base aircraft out of Cork Airport this year and we are optimistic as we are fairly advanced on a deal with Cork Airport at the moment to continue operating the third base aircraft into this summer. I am reasonably confident that will happen.

We now have three aircraft based in Shannon all year round. We have a hangar facility there with three bays. We are creating 200 jobs. We do not have any aircraft based in Knock airport but it is a vital artery especially for UK regional airports to the west of Ireland. We will carry almost 700,000 passenger on those routes. I was recently in Kerry Airport from where we have direct connections to Germany, Manchester and London. It is a fantastic facility which should continue to grow. That is where we are for the period 2019 to 2022. We see ourselves growing if the type of aviation policy Mr. O'Leary has outlined is put in place with competitive costs. We must have competitive costs.

I was in the Canary Islands last week and met the President. A conference of all island-economies is being held there this week and Ireland is not represented. They know what is coming for them. It is the ridiculous situation where a flight from Amsterdam to Aruba in the Dutch Antilles is subject to zero taxes but if a person flies to the Canary Islands, a €28 tax will be applied. For places on the periphery such as the Canary Islands, the tourism industry is their Ruhr Valley. If those people are not working in tourism, they will have to work somewhere else and they will have a carbon footprint somewhere else. It is imperative that we have an aviation policy to support the type of growth we can put into Ireland in order to see connectivity expand substantially. Since this summer, Ryanair has more short-haul connections out of Dublin Airport than Heathrow Airport has short-haul connections to Europe. We will be able to continue that. We have 50 aircraft coming this year, another 50 the year after and we can grow Irish airports by 50% if the aviation policy that Ryanair has set out is implemented.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

We should explain that those are total traffic numbers for each of the airports in 2019. We carried 38 billion passengers. We think 50% growth is possible in the next five years. We will not deliver all of it but we will certainly deliver most of it. We can grow our existing traffic at Dublin, Cork, Shannon, Knock and Kerry airports by 50%. Most of that growth will clearly take place in Dublin Airport where we have the benefit of a second runway, which - credit where it is due to the DAA - was fortuitously built during a recession and during the Covid-19 pandemic. That was the right time to build a second runway. Terminal capacity is the restriction now. We need another low-cost terminal, like pier D, that runs to the north side of pier D when you go across the big skyway to pier D. We need to build something up to the right. An equivalent of pier D could be built there for €120 million. It does not need a tunnel under a taxiway that serves nothing.

Cork Airport does not need any additional infrastructure. It only needs lower access costs. Again, we should give credit where it is due, the new management team at Cork Airport has been quite imaginative at coming up with growth incentives. Since Shannon Airport was separated from the DAA, it has been terrific. Mary Considine and her team have done a remarkable job. Shannon Airport is difficult. The biggest threat to traffic growth in Cork and Shannon Airports is Dublin Airport. We used to operate three flights a day from Dublin to Cork and the day the Fermoy or Mitchelstown bypass opened, traffic went from 90% load to zero. Everyone drives. However Cork Airport is growing strongly with European traffic inbound to Cork in the summer and some charters outbound. Knock and Kerry airports are doing well. They are well-run airports and we are working with them but it is difficult to drive significant additional growth to Knock and Kerry airports because we cannot base aircraft there late at night. There is no demand for those services.

We have set out what aviation policy should be for Ireland. We need to put it in writing and challenge our Government and our industry.

If we put in place incentives for growth and challenge Europe's lazy environmental taxation so we are not penalising the peripheral countries, can we increase traffic by 50% over the next five years and create another 14,000 jobs? The answer yes we can.

I do not want to make it the central point of today, but I urge the committee to investigate what is going on with the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications on its emission trading system, ETS, revenues. Its analysis shows ETS revenues of €140 million over the last three years. Bus Éireann school transport is taking 77% of that money. That is not money being spent on environmental or climate projects. We wrote to the Department, and I do not need to tell the people in this room who can read English, but when somebody is not answering a question they use words like "an amount equivalent to" 100% of Ireland's ETS revenues "has been attributed to" emission reduction activities. We know when people are speaking in French, that is classic French. We wrote back and asked what the €28 million, the €30 million, and €32 million of climate finance money was being spent on. We cannot get an answer beyond taking its assurances that amounts equivalent to this have been attributed to emission reduction activities. We do not begrudge the school bus fleet the money, but it should not come out of moneys that Ireland is telling Europe it will spend on environmental measures. The aviation industry is challenged. We need to work to come up with more supplies of sustainable fuels at our airports. We are investing heavily in winglets to reduce fuel consumption in new aircraft. We do not think it unreasonable that some of that investment will be supported with some income from these funds. That is it, Chairman. I thank the committee for listening.

The witnesses set out their views. Many members want to contribute, so I ask that they keep strictly to ten minutes and deal with the issues raised by Mr. O'Leary and Mr. Wilson.

I have a lot of questions. I will be quick and the witnesses might be quick as well, in Ryanair style. The witnesses are always welcome and have been very insightful. We did not expect a thesis on school transportation, and that is something we need to look into further. My first question concerns environmental policies, which the witnesses mentioned. Our committee recently travelled to Amsterdam and Rotterdam to look at how their national aviation policy is framed. We were told in Rotterdam airport that there is an elephant in the room, which Ireland has not yet grasped. These are the environmental limits. They are at capacity but it is not due to lack of runway, or hanger space, or floor space in the airport. They are at environmental capacity and it is coming hot and heavy across Europe. The European Commission will want to replicate the Dutch model throughout all member states. What do Ryanair say to that? This committee has never even spoken about noise emissions and areas like that. We speak about sustainable aviation fuel, SAF, but not noise emissions.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

The answer is that you need to be very careful with the Dutch. What has happened with the policy in Holland is twofold. First, they have lots of alternative ways of travelling across Europe. You can use trains or motorways. There are no issues. The Dutch are also engaged in massively protecting KLM from competition. They are artificially reducing capacity and slots at Schipol Airport. They are forcing the other airlines, like ourselves and Easyjet, to reduce our capacity there. They have come up with a list of measures where connecting flights get priority but point-to-point carriers have to reduce their flights and take them out of there. A lot of what is going on in Amsterdam and Rotterdam is about protecting KLM. It is nothing at all to do with the environment. If they were really concerned about the environment, they would be asking their national airline, KLM, to pay its fair share of environmental taxes on 100% of its traffic. What they do is they exempt 84% of KLM traffic.

Which national aviation policy in Europe or worldwide should we be trying to replicate?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

We do not do studies on worldwide aviation policy. The Irish policy is fine. It talks about maintaining a competitive environment. It is just that the day-to-day actions do not reflect the policy framework that was set out in 2019. Irish passengers, both visitors and citizens, are paying the highest environmental taxes of any passenger group in Europe to travel to and from a peripheral country where there is no alternative. We do not have the alternative of trains or motorways to get on and off the island.

Okay. Given the favourable long haul taxation regime, Ryanair has in the past dabbled with the idea of going transatlantic. Is this in the medium-term or long-term plans, or is it totally off the agenda?

Mr. Eddie Wilson

We are not going to be flying intercontinental. What I can say, going back to the Dutch issue of Rotterdam and Amsterdam, is that Rotterdam is in no way constrained. Rotterdam did 15 flights yesterday. Shannon did 22 flights. Beware of what the Dutch say. Amsterdam was probably the worst run in Europe in the Covid crisis. Having been there recently, I could not get a cup of coffee in the airport after 9 p.m. They are not the people to talk to in terms of having an aviation policy. We have to get away from this thing of aviation being discretionary travel. This is not just in Ireland. It is in Italy, Greece and Spain. Small and medium size businesses, people visiting friends and relatives and the Erasmus programme are all essential parts of aviation within Europe now. It is not all about tourism. However, it is particularly about tourism in some of the island economies like Ireland because that is where we get our employment.

We spoke a while ago about the dominance of Dublin Airport. It is averaging around 87% to 90% and nobody in this room expects to fully recalibrate that in other ways. Given that we have so many airports in the west of Ireland, like Shannon in my own constituency, what is Ryanair's take on that? It goes in and hardballs with Mary Considine and others to try to get arrangements so they can run routes. I am sure it strikes good deals and we are very grateful for what it is doing. What can be done with these airports along the west coast to achieve some form of partial counterbalance to what is happening in Dublin?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

First, as the Deputy knows, nobody hardballs Mary Considine. If anything, the hardballing goes in the other direction when dealing with the management of Shannon Airport. They are tough operators. It is very important. Ireland really needs to go back. When talking about international aviation I like to quote the example of Bristol. It has a hinterland population of 10 million people within one hour of the city. It has one airport. We are a country with a population of five million people, if you take the Republic. If you add in the North, that is seven million people. We have 13 airports, including the North, and 11 airports just in the Republic. We are massively over-airported. Nobody likes to hear that, but it is the reality. The dominance of Dublin and Belfast is inevitable, to an extent, because of the very small population base. What has accentuated that dominance, and Dublin also dominates Belfast, is that the motorway network is arterial to and from Dublin. People drive to Dublin because it is easy to get to, particularly when it is not during rush hour. They will drive to Dublin Airport, and they will drive to Dublin from the catchment area of Belfast Airport too.

The future for airports in the west of Ireland is very perilous. Someone will raise the example of Waterford, and Waterford has no future. Knock survives, even though the road network once you get into Mayo is not great, because there is enough inbound traffic into the west of Ireland to use Knock, particularly from the UK. However, Knock means that Galway Airport, in essence, has no future. It has no commercial future as a destination. Shannon Airport struggles because of its physical location on the far side of Limerick. Everybody, including some friends I went to school with who live in Nenagh, used to use Shannon Airport until the M7-M9 was completed and now they never go to Shannon. They go to Dublin. Cork Airport struggles partly because it is close to Shannon Airport. If you are within two hours of an international airport, you are in its catchment area. If you take all of those airports and draw two hour circles around them, they all converge around the midlands somewhere. Mullingar and Athlone are in the everybody's catchment area. We think there is a viable future for Dublin, Cork, Shannon and Knock. There is no viable future for Donegal, Sligo, Galway or Waterford. The heroic sums of money we waste on public service obligations, PSOs, to those airports is completely wasted.

What about Kerry?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

I should have included it. Kerry has a future, but only because of the road infrastructure down there.

Kerry Airport has a future but even in our ambitious plans we see the airport's traffic growing from 400,000 to 600,000. What Kerry Airport does cleverly is it runs a one-shift operation so it only opens at 9 a.m. and closes around 6 p.m. The business community in the area would like the airport to have an earlier departure in the morning and a later arrival in the evening. There are only about two of them travelling on a daily basis, so-----

I am sorry to interrupt but my time is limited. To be a bit parochial, there have been some major announcements recently at Shannon Airport regarding routes to Porto and Newcastle and some good news about a new hangar and jobs. Will Mr. O'Leary or Mr. Wilson outline what the company is planning for the airport in terms of route developments and job creation and provide a little more detail on what will happen in the new hangar facility?

Mr. Eddie Wilson

We will conduct line maintenance there and potentially heavy maintenance as well. Shannon Airport is becoming a hub for engineering. There are some paint shops down there as well. The airport could grow by 50% over the next number of years. It has around 1 million passengers at the moment and with the right aviation policy, we can develop it further.

In 2013 or 2014, Turkish Airlines placed a massive order for new aircraft comparable to Ryanair's current Boeing 737 Max order. Shortly after placing the order, the company contacted Airbus and insisted that, given the magnitude of the order, certain components of the aircraft be manufactured in Turkey. Admittedly, there was an existing infrastructure in Turkey. I have met some people in the maintenance, repair and overhaul, MRO, sector who believe that beyond maintaining aeroplanes - painting them and everything else - the time is now ripe in Ireland. Ryanair has a dominant position in the budget airline sector and we have global dominance in the aircraft leasing sector. The one area where we fall back and do not have any infrastructure is aircraft manufacturing, both full and part manufacturing. Given the €22 billion order Ryanair has placed and the muscle it is able to flex in European aviation, would it consider flexing its muscle by asking Boeing and other companies it deals with to manufacture something in Ireland to give an adrenaline shot to our economy?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

We have placed a large order with Boeing and are a very big customer but we do not have that kind of power or influence. We are investing heavily in maintenance infrastructure in Shannon Airport and investing very heavily in Dublin Airport and working with the Dublin Airport Authority, DAA, to add three maintenance hangars at Dublin Airport. That will create far more jobs than asking Boeing to make bits of planes here. There are military issues too when Boeing tries to move aircraft technologies out of North America. If anything, the company is onshoring a lot of stuff that used to be in China. We do not have that kind of clout so I am afraid the answer to the Deputy's question is "No". However, we can create a lot more useful jobs here with aircraft maintenance in Dublin and Shannon airports.

In terms of inward tourism, Germany accounts for the third highest number of tourists coming to Ireland, at 8%. As Europe's largest and most developed economy, I believe there could be more routes to and from Germany. Does Ryanair have a strategy to get more Germans over to the Wild Atlantic Way?

Mr. Eddie Wilson

We do. What has happened this year in Germany, with the bailout for Lufthansa from the German Government, is interesting. The company has retired 150 aircraft and in July and August this year, the total German short-haul market reduced by around 25%. Air fares from Germany subsequently went up dramatically. We should be worried about that because Ryanair will not be able to fill that gap entirely due to high airport charges. We should be cognisant, particularly on this island with regard to in-bound tourism, that in the short term, after Covid-19, the short-haul market has got smaller. We are taking a larger slice, in the short term, of a dwindling cake in terms of short-term capacity. We have been successful in Germany and we will grow there but that growth will be capped out because Germany is one of the countries in which we have had the slowest growth over the past 12 months. We are likely to put aircraft elsewhere.

I thank Mr. Wilson and Mr. O'Leary. Keep up the good work.

Mr. Eddie Wilson

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Mr. Michael O'Leary

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Senator Gerry Horkan has ten minutes and I will be strict with time.

That is fine. I thank Mr. O'Leary and Mr. Wilson for attending. I remember watching Ryanair's initial flight from Waterford to Gatwick Airport as a schoolkid and wondering if it would last. When Mr. O'Leary first went into the company he was probably not sure if it would either but Ryanair has been transformed. I thank him for what he has done, not only in providing low-cost aviation for Irish people and people all over Europe but also, in a peculiar way, probably saving Aer Lingus from itself at a certain point. It had to change to face the competition provided by Ryanair and that gave us two very good carriers. The connectivity Ryanair has provided us is fantastic and, as Mr. O'Leary pointed out, we are a peripheral nation which needs aviation more than any other country in terms of capacity. Cyprus and Malta are in the same position but they are not the same size as Ireland.

The ETS is one of Ryanair's main gripes and I totally get what Mr. O'Leary says about it and why he says it. Where do we go with this? It is a matter for the European Council of Ministers and the European Commission, so this committee will not solve it, although we can jump up and down about it. The Irish Times reported that Ryanair had a call yesterday with EUROCONTROL. What does Ryanair want this committee to do? Should we tackle the Minister for Transport or ask him to go to Europe? What are the next steps? I saw that Ryanair does not pay taxes on some flights, presumably flights to Morocco, Tel Aviv and similar places. Is that correct?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

We started off with small free allowances and we now have a much smaller free allowance. Historically, companies were given a free allowance based on size but because we keep growing, we have a much smaller free allowance.

Charges do not apply to flights outside the EU. Is that correct?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Yes.

They do not apply to Ryanair flights to Morocco, Tel Aviv and so on.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

That is correct.

Where do we go next with the ETS?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

That is a good question. The peripheral countries, particularly the tourism countries and the islands - Greece, Cyprus, Malta, Portugal, Spain and Italy - are growing increasingly concerned at the way environmental taxation is being used. It is largely proposed by the Belgians, Dutch, Germans and French, all of whom have alternatives, to penalise short-haul. There is a growing sense that this needs to be pushed back. The Italian and Spanish ministers have said they will block any further increase in environmental taxation on air travel. We see nothing similar coming from the Irish Government. This should be at the heart of Government aviation policy. Two meetings of peripheral transport ministers have been held over the past six months and Ireland did not even attend. Ireland attended one transport meeting and made no contribution. We are an island on the periphery of Europe. The UK has left the European Union. In some senses, that is not good for us and weakens the European Union. We have to explain and put forward our position. We do not have alternatives to get on and off our island and our tourism industry and the tourism industries of Portugal, Greece, Malta and Cyprus are fundamentally dependent on having very competitive, low access costs. What do we want our Government to do? We want our Minister for Transport to lobby strongly for a policy in Europe that European environmental taxes must be applied to all flights and should be applied fairly to all flights. That is an unarguable case.

Is the current mechanism to charge per passenger, per flight or per length of flight? What is the charge? Surely the charge should be less for a flight from Dublin to Brussels than a flight from Dublin to the Canaries?

Mr. Eddie Wilson

Environmental taxes are different in different countries.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

We buy on the ETS, so we have to buy carbon credits. We use up carbon credits so it is basically per mile of flying.

A passenger on a Dublin to Brussels flight will be charged less than a passenger on a flight from Dublin to the Canaries?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Yes, it will be slightly less.

Equally, an intra-German flight-----

Mr. Michael O'Leary

It goes directly to the EU and the EU returns the money to the member states, which is where Ireland gets its ETS revenues from.

Those are then sent to Bus Éireann or wherever.

We all think of Ryanair as Ireland's national airline but Ireland does not account for a big percentage of the company's total travel. What is the figure?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

It is 8%.

Ryanair is hoping to grow by around 60 million passengers, with 15 million of those, or 25% of its growth, in Ireland. It clearly believes there is a lot of capacity to deliver in terms of passenger demand given that such a large proportion of its growth is expected in Ireland compared with other markets.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Ireland continues to benefit hugely from the fact that Ryanair is based here. There is no other reason. It is not that it is the greatest tourism destination in the world. We live here and employ a lot of people here and we are very committed to working with Irish airports and various Irish Governments to increase air travel to and from Ireland.

To be fair to him, Mr. O'Leary has always lived and paid his taxes here. Other people with similar earning capacity have not done that and we appreciate it.

Ryanair has acknowledged that the company will grow primarily in Dublin.

The growth will be on routes from Dublin to where?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

It will be UK and Europe, largely essentially short haul.

I accept it will be UK and Europe, but are there particular markets within Europe, for example, Spain, Germany, France?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

How does Dublin get from 38 million passengers to 50 million passengers? I believe that 10 million or 11 million of that 12 million growth will come from additional flights from Europe, increasingly from central and eastern Europe and also more from the UK. Those are the two biggest tourism markets we have. There is an over-preponderance of focus on transatlantic flights. Airports love long-haul stuff because it is shiny and new, but it does not deliver significant traffic volumes. They spend more, but the short-haul flights where two or three flights a day can be delivered is much more dramatic for our tourism industry.

Obviously, many people are going home to Poland or Romania and travelling back forth. Does Ryanair collect the breakdown between business, people returning home and pure tourist traffic?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

It splits about 30:30:40. About 30% of people are travelling on business; about 30% are visiting friends and relations, VFR; and about 40% is pure leisure.

In a way Mr. O'Leary has told us there is no aviation policy and then he has said actually the policy is fine but the delivery of the policy is not. If he were the Minister for Transport in the morning, to deliver the five-year growth plan, that is basically what he would do. He would drive down access costs, demand fairer environmental charges and try to reform air traffic control as best he could.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Correct.

What can we do about air traffic control? I met Eamonn Brennan at the opening of the new tower and I know him from when he was with the Irish Aviation Authority. What would Mr. O'Leary do if he could? What can we do, as a country, as a Government and as a committee?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

There are three things. First, the Commission has the legal power to insist that overflights are protected during national air traffic control strikes. That would mean that the French domestic flights would get cancelled but flights overflying France would be protected. That legal framework already exists to protect overflights during national strikes.

Why has that not happened until now?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

It is because there is a reluctance among the Commission and individual governments which do not want to upset the French and the French do not want to upset the French unions, etc. Our citizens and visitors are being completely screwed over while a bunch of French air traffic controllers go on strike. We fully respect their right to go on strike, but the French should take the hit. The Irish, Germans, Italians and Spanish who are not travelling to France should not take the hit. Second, Eurocontrol needs to separate the upper airspace from the lower airspace. The upper airspace is above 25,000 ft. An aeroplane at that height can fly direct and there is no need to zigzag. If I want to go to London, it infuriates me that I need to zigzag north of the Welsh hills and down to Bristol. An aeroplane going to Greece must fly across 18 different countries. It is zigzagging so they all get a fee. I want to go straight. The technology now exists. We inherited this system in the 1950s when aeroplanes did not have radar. They were flying through clouds and could not see where they were going. They now all have collision-avoidance systems and the infrastructure is there. Irish air traffic control could run most of Europe's overflight system on its own. We need to separate the upper airspace and allow that to be run by Eurocontrol.

While this might be impossible, the third element would be to abandon the single European sky. The single European sky, SES, has been one of the great European disaster movies of all time. It has been such a spectacular horror show that they have made a sequel, called SES2, which will be just as unsuccessful as SES1 which achieved nothing at all.

I ask Mr. O'Leary to elaborate on these disaster movies 1 and 2 because I have not seen either of them.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

In 2001 the European Commission proposed that there would be a single European sky project, in other words moving to the same air traffic control system that America has, which is one system operated by all. The difficulty is it is opposed by every single air traffic control union because it means fewer jobs for them. Therefore, they cannot get national governments to agree to it. In the old days, in the original successful days of the European Union, Peter Sutherland would never have got air travel deregulated and would never have liberalised air travel if it was necessary to wait for the French and German governments to agree to it. However, the European Commission lacks the bottle that the earlier commissions had to challenge the vested interests of the national governments.

That would also provide us with environmental benefits through reduced fuel consumption.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

There would be fuel savings and environmental emission reductions.

I am not sure if I will get a chance to come back in again. I thank Mr. O'Leary and all the Ryanair team in Ireland and across Europe for the benefits they give to all of us. I thank them for being here and we hope to see them here again soon.

Deputy Lowry and Senator Buttimer have agreed to switch. Deputy Lowry is taking Senator Buttimer's place.

Much of what I wanted to ask has been asked. I welcome Mr. O'Leary and Mr. Wilson. We are used to Mr. Wilson appearing before the committee, particularly during the Covid pandemic when he was very helpful. He gave us facts and information that allowed us to rectify some of the situations that had arisen. I welcome Mr. O'Leary, in particular. He has a proven track record. His leadership has achieved something phenomenal with the expansion and growth of Ryanair. No one in Ireland is better placed to give us an overview of the industry and send us in the right direction. His presentation has been interesting and informative, and will guide us in providing an input to national policy.

The two principal areas he covered were the climate levies, the ETS, and the regulatory regime. He expanded and developed on that. Those are the two issues the committee needs to move on. I give credit to Mr. O'Leary and his team for predicting the rapid recovery in air traffic. In fairness, I think the Tánaiste, Deputy Varadkar, also did so. Unfortunately, it was not predicted by the people at the Dublin Airport Authority.

Mr. O'Leary mentioned that Ryanair expects to increase passenger numbers into Ireland by 19 million over five years. Even during the Covid pandemic Ryanair invested in human resources and new aircraft. Is Ryanair having a problem with recruitment? Whenever witnesses involved in the aviation industry, particularly DAA, appear before the committee they tell us about the problems they have in recruitment. The main problem DAA had was that it disemployed people when it should have employed them. Ryanair was recruiting during the Covid pandemic, but DAA was disemploying which led to a major problem and created an enormous difficulty for the perception of Ireland's competence at an international level. Why are they different?

Regarding regional balanced development, Mr. O'Leary mentioned that Dublin Airport already has a monopoly. There is a difference between a monopoly and a dominance. As I see it at the moment, Dublin has the monopoly which is creating massive problems for many people. There is traffic congestion getting in and out of it. It is not possible to get a car parking space in Dublin. The cost of hotel accommodation has gone through the roof. There are problems with baggage handling at the airport and problems getting through security. There are problems with the food and retail outlets which are under pressure. I do not understand why most of Ryanair's growth is going through Dublin Airport. Mr. O'Leary spoke about extending pier D or putting in a new terminal.

What would it take to bring airports such as Shannon and Cork into the equation on a more serious level? Many people are travelling from Munster to take flights from Dublin. I was interested in Mr. O'Leary making the connection between the road network and the airports. I did not realise that had such an impact until he mentioned that the Cork to Dublin flight has now been cancelled because people now travel by road. When planning for the future I do not think the impact of that has was ever considered. It now has a huge environmental impact because of pollution from road traffic. What do we need to do to bring Cork and Shannon into the equation? What changes need to be made to the national policy? Obviously, people are travelling to Dublin because of the frequency of flights and because of the better options flying in and flying back. What would Ryanair suggest the Government should do to bring more regional balance? Does it require infrastructure or a change in incentives for the airlines?

What do we have to do to boost Cork and Shannon?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Mr. Wilson might take recruitment and I will take Cork and Shannon.

Mr. Eddie Wilson

On the recruitment, what was different about us was from day one of the pandemic, say St. Patrick's Day 2020, we just thought about the day we were going to start again. We did not know when it was going to be. We kept everybody employed and kept everybody current. That did not seem like such a remarkable, innovative or creative thing to do at the time. What we did not realise was everybody else let their staff go and were then surprised that those staff were not there when they needed them. A lot of people left the workforce.

Across Europe, we have had no real difficulty with recruiting staff, except in two areas. One is the UK where, because of Brexit, free movement of people has changed and entry-level jobs are more difficult to fill with a dwindling workforce. Here in Ireland, the number one block for getting people is accommodation. There is no accommodation. I think there were about six houses available for rent in the Swords area yesterday. We have nothing but people who want to come and work for us. Many people come from overseas from places like Spain, Italy, France and places like that. They want to come and work here. There are also Irish people. We recruit locally through tourism schools and all that but we bring people through as well because they get a job with us and they want to go home to Italy where we have a base. They come here and try it and they cannot get accommodation. I never thought we would have a situation where we cannot get people to come to Dublin because they have nowhere to live.

It is another reason we should have regional expansion, rather than Dublin expansion.

Mr. Eddie Wilson

Unfortunately, everybody wants to come to Dublin.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

I touched briefly on this the other day but we have to be very careful here as an island on the periphery of Europe. Under our plan, we grow traffic at Cork to 3.4 million passengers and Shannon gets to 2 million. The latter figure is the benchmark for being a sustainable international airport. At 2 million passengers, you have sufficient services, retail etc. to be sustainable. Anything below 2 million and you are really struggling. I would not underestimate the challenge of getting Shannon to 2 million or Cork to 3.4 million. We have to be very careful. This was something that happened a lot during the baggage crisis or the staffing crisis at Dublin Airport. People asked why we did not just tell the airlines to go to Cork. Some 60% of our inbound passengers want to fly to Dublin. Dublin is the draw here. If we get them into Dublin many will drive around the island but we cannot tell half the English people - we tried that for years and it was called the Shannon stopover. It was the greatest crime against aviation in this country but it was for regional development reasons. If people want to come to Dublin then let them get to Dublin. Many of them will drive around.

We have some significant success at the moment opening new routes to and from Cork and to and from Shannon. Cork and Shannon are beginning to assert themselves and grow as destinations in their own right and they are attractive destinations in their own right. As for trying to artificially move people out of Dublin if Dublin is where they want to go, we should get them onto the island first. We must make the island in general more attractive, that is, make it more competitive. We should implement policy, as Senator Horkan said. The state of the current policy is fine; it is just nobody is implementing it. We are not focusing on competitiveness. In fact, we have Ministers talking about being less competitive by taxing ourselves even more at a time when we are trying to attract more people here. We have to be careful with Dublin's dominance. It is dominant but we are better off to have a very successful Dublin and out of that grow a successful Cork and Shannon. Limerick is having a great run at the hurling at the moment but should we limit hurling or should Dublin GAA be broken into two because the teams won six all-Irelands? The answer is "No" because the others have to come up and learn to compete. Competing is how you go forward.

I recognise the Deputy's contribution. He was one of the more forward-looking Ministers with responsibility for transport. It was many years ago, but he did a great job. In the last 30 years there have not been many Ministers with responsibility for transport who I am willing to compliment, but the Deputy is one of them.

Game, set and match.

I thank Mr. O'Leary. He and Mr. Wilson are at the coalface and see things happening. What do they think about security in Dublin Airport? The 3D technology was trialled at Heathrow and it is amazing Shannon has it in place while our main airport, our monopoly airport, does not have it. What improvements can we make to get through people faster? It obviously impacts on Ryanair's passengers. How can we improve security at Dublin Airport? It is a major issue. Has the baggage situation been resolved or are there still problems with the baggage from the point of view of Ryanair's passengers?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Security at an airport is a logistical issue. Did Dublin Airport screw up in April, May and June of this year? It did. It was short-staffed. Fundamentally, security is a function of having enough people. The airport has enough X-ray machines to handle 34 or 35 million passengers as long as all the machines are manned. The DAA did not man sufficient machines and if it backs up first thing in the morning there is no way of recovering that because the waves of passengers keep coming. To be fair to the authority, it recovered it very well. We were very critical at the time. We felt much of it could have been avoided if we had called out the Army or security forces to give the DAA personnel in the short term. The situation would not then have arisen.

We are very much in favour of the 3D scanners. However, we are in correspondence with the DAA at the moment as we are very concerned it may not have enough staff there for this Christmas. The authority tells us it is hiring and recruiting. It is talking about putting in the 3D scanners in the spring but it is talking about taking out existing lanes to put in the scanners, which will reduce the security capacity at Dublin Airport. If the DAA is to put in 3D scanners they need to be in additional lanes. They need less manpower and mean fewer people taking stuff out of their pockets. It is a logistical exercise. To be fair to Dalton Phillips and his management team last summer, they threw labour at it and got away with it by the skin of their teeth after a very poor period from March to May. However, we are not out of the woods yet. We are concerned about the Dublin Airport staffing this Christmas. The DAA needs to start recruiting now. Easter is on 7 April next year. We are in dialogue with the authority and it has interim management in place but we are concerned. I will put it no more strongly than that.

Mr. Eddie Wilson

If the machines that are going in are done correctly, they significantly increase the throughput. As Mr. O'Leary says, they are working well in Shannon and they are in Kerry also.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

On the baggage, if you were travelling with Ryanair we had no such issues, though we do not carry a lot of bags. Most of the baggage challenges were with connecting passengers and connecting bags. The whole connecting bags system in Schiphol, Heathrow, Dublin and everywhere broke down. It will be better next summer. The airlines will certainly be better prepared for next summer but if you are doing connecting flights you are taking your life in your hands checking bags through to your ultimate destination. People should travel lighter and with smaller baggage.

Mr. O'Leary has raised a red flag over staffing for Christmas, which is something we will have to take up with the DAA.

We will write to the authority on the matter.

Does Ryanair have a formal process in place for liaising with the DAA?

Mr. Eddie Wilson

Yes.

How does it work?

Mr. Eddie Wilson

We regularly meet the authority on an operational level. We met the interim CEO. There is a good working relationship.

Consequently, the executives have fed back that concern they have about Christmas to the authority already.

Mr. Eddie Wilson

We have.

I thank our guests.

It is my own slot now. I wish to pick up a couple of points. We have had the DAA in before. Since a new CEO has come in, we expect to bring the authority before us early in the new year. We will write to it about the issue of it having sufficient staff at both Christmas and next Easter.

I had a quick look at the Ryanair statistics and in 2019, 86% of its traffic was coming through Dublin, so roughly 14% was coming through the other airports. The airline is projecting that in 2027, 90% will be coming through Dublin, which is a higher share. This takes us back to the core question. We have a road network and so forth. I am a Deputy for the constituency of Limerick City and we are very proud of how our hurlers are doing and we hope and expect it continues. Shannon Airport has a capacity of 4.5 million passengers.

There is a question that must be asked. We have flown out of Dublin Airport on a Ryanair flight to Schiphol and, to be honest, it was chaotic. That was not too long ago. It was overly chaotic and we barely made our flight, although we were there well on time. Yet, if someone flies through Shannon, they will be through in good time as it has the 3D scanners. This is the question the public always ask. They love flying Ryanair and it is great it has extra flights going into Shannon. I know Mr. O’Leary is talking about competitiveness. What would have to change for Ryanair to fly extra flights out of Shannon Airport? What is that ingredient?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

The simple ingredient is that Shannon would have a materially lower cost or a better incentive scheme than Dublin, although there is a limit to that. We have tried some routes out of Shannon that have not worked and we continue to try new routes that are working very well. We have also very successfully put in a series of summer charter flights to Ibiza and Palma which have been very well supported. However, we cannot get away from the reality that in the winter, and I say this with the greatest respect, Shannon is not a great destination. Limerick is a very fine city but it has not got as many visitor attractions as Dublin. Cork has slightly more. Cork and Shannon are growing very well in a very difficult environment, but Dublin has hotel accommodation, a huge range of flights and services, and we have a population of 2.5 million living within an hour's drive of Dublin. Heathrow, for example, has 65 million or 70 million passengers whereas Stansted only has 30 million passengers, so why do more people not choose Stansted? It is because Heathrow is Heathrow, and it has connections and everything else.

I think the Chairman underestimates. It has been a remarkable success. Shannon ten years ago had fewer than 1 million passengers. The fact Shannon has grown to close to 2 million passengers and could get to 2 million passengers is a remarkable success, given it has lost all of the transatlantic stopovers. Shannon is very much standing on its own two feet. Cork is standing on its own two feet. Could we do more? Yes, but we are already doing more and more can be done.

I want to go into the policy. I want to put the counterargument on the long-haul flights outside of Europe. For a layperson looking in, the tax applies on inter-EU flights. If Ryanair flies outside the EU, for example, to Morocco, it does not apply. The long-haul airlines say they will not be competitive on an international scale with other airlines worldwide if the environmental tax is imposed on them. What does Mr. O’Leary say to that?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Rubbish. The argument that has been made by the other airlines has been made by using their political might. The American airlines get the State Department to say “We are not paying environmental taxes”, and the Russians say they will not pay, although the Russians are not flying, and the Chinese say they will not pay environmental taxes. This was tested in the European courts. Europe, if it has an environmental policy, is entirely free to tax flights on a departure basis. If an airline departs from a European airport or uplifts fuel at a European airport, it pays environmental tax on the same fair basis as everybody else. The legacy carriers, Lufthansa, Air France and KLM, argue, “You cannot make us pay tax on our long-haul flights because the Americans will not pay and, therefore, we would have a competitive disadvantage.”

It seems a reasonable argument.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

It is a reasonable argument except Europe has the right to make everybody pay. The counterargument is entirely unfair: let us make the ordinary European citizens on short-haul flights, who are the most price sensitive - the families going on holidays - pay all of the burden of the environmental taxes.

What if it applied to everyone? I see the European Parliament voted in recent times that it should be extended. I presume this would be a European Commission decision. Is that correct?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

The European Commission, yes.

If that decision were made, what impact would it have? Mr. O’Leary is saying that €4.50 is the average cost per flight, which is about 12% of the flight cost. What difference would it make for the person who is travelling with Ryanair? What reduction would they see? What would that €4.50 go down to if it were extended to all airlines?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

If it were extended to all airlines without increasing the emissions trading system, ETS, revenues, then our €4.50 would go down to probably €1.50. It would go down by about two thirds. That would be meaningful for growth and incentives for growing routes and traffic into Shannon and Cork and peripheral destinations. I think what is likely to happen is that Europe will say “No, we want a slightly bigger cake”, in which case ours may stay at €4.50 or it may come down to €4 or €3.50, but at least Europe is able to hold its head up and say everybody is paying their fair share. What is unarguable at the moment is that only the poor Europeans are paying all of it and the rich Americans and the rich Chinese are paying none of it.

What percentage of Ryanair flights are within the EU?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

It is 85% to 90% of our flights.

In essence, it is a European airline. Would that be a fair comment?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Yes.

I know Mr. Wilson brought this up recently. Why, as an airline, has Ryanair not gone with the long-haul transatlantic model?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

It is because it is a different business. There are two fundamentals that make Ryanair very difficult to compete with in short-haul traffic, and one is 25-minute turnarounds. We do a 25-minute turnaround when Aer Lingus at Heathrow would do about an hour or an hour and 15 minutes. If we do a 25-minute turnaround on six one-hour flights, we save three hours and we do two extra flights per day per aircraft, with the same aircraft and the same crew. On six flights, that makes us 33% more efficient, or on eight flights 25% more efficient than everybody else.

The other one is that on short-haul, whether in North America or Europe, premium business traffic is gone. Nobody will pay a premium. Nobody does business class anymore. When I first started flying 30 years ago, the rich businesspeople would be on the Aer Lingus red-eye to Heathrow, quaffing champagne in a business lounge in Dublin Airport. Businesspeople now want to get on the plane, get the hell out of there and go. Nobody will pay, so business class has disappeared on short-haul flights in North America and in Europe. We see that with Aer Lingus as well as with us. Long-haul is different for two reasons. First, it does not matter if we turn the plane around in 25 minutes or three hours; we are still only doing two flights per day per aircraft. Second, 20% of that marketplace will pay an enormous premium for business class or first class on transatlantic flights, and they want flat beds and so on. They will pay ridiculous premiums. The transatlantic airlines can sell all of the economy seats free if they want to and the premium business would still pay for that business.

On the ETS, Ryanair is not saying it will not pay it, but it basically wants it to be collected and distributed among all airlines.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Every air passenger travelling to and from Europe should pay their fair share of environmental taxes.

Of the money that is raised, €140 million comes back to the Department of Transport and the Irish Government. With regard to the redistribution of that money, how would that assist Ryanair in getting to emissions reductions quicker?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

The Irish Government undertakes with the European Union that it will apply those ETS revenues for climate reduction measures. We would say, obviously, that the best climate reduction measure here would be to subsidise Ryanair's aircraft investment because they burn 16% less fuel and have Scimitar winglets. However, if it does not want to subsidise our huge capex, capital expenditure, we would say to use that money to provide sustainable aviation fuels at the three main Irish airports, Shannon, Cork and Dublin, and require all airlines operating at those airports to uplift a proportion of sustainable aviation fuel, and it becomes a circular thing. The people who are paying under ETS see some benefit in having more sustainable aviation fuel at Cork, Shannon and Dublin, and at Knock. We should use the money for identifiable climate reductions measures.

We will have the Minister, Deputy Ryan, and the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, before us next week on this matter. If Mr. O’Leary were to prioritise what he wants in terms of actions and priorities under a new national aviation strategy, perhaps he might give them to me in ranked order.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

One is Ireland's competitiveness. That leads inevitably to the second, which is a fairer distribution of environmental taxes.

The ETS.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

The ETS. The third is lower cost facilities at the main Irish airports, principally at Dublin, and at the other main Irish airports.

On that final one, how does Mr. O’Leary believe the lower costs can be achieved?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Cancel or ignore the plan to spend €200 million building a tunnel under a taxiway and use that €200 million to extend terminal facilities - the terminal D facility - at Dublin Airport. By the way, there are many other international airports where people need to cross a taxiway and they use lights and gates, a bit like a railway crossing. It is only a taxiway and it is not in use that often during the day. They should drive across the taxiway.

How many people does Ryanair employ in Ireland and worldwide at this moment in time?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Worldwide, this summer, it was 19,000 and we will hire our 20,000th employee in the summer of 2023. In Ireland, I think the figure is heading for about 3,000.

What percentage of flights and passenger numbers into and out of Ireland does Ryanair make up?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Out of Dublin, we are at about 56%. We are probably heading for 60%, if you add in Shannon, Cork and the rest. Somewhere just under 60%.

How many passengers will Ryanair carry this year?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

We will carry 168 million.

Mr. Eddie Wilson

I will add one thing that we would ask of the Minister for Transport. It concerns the airport charging environment and airlines that invest in more fuel-efficient aircraft. I ask that the Minister divvy up the cake of charges on a per-passenger basis for those who have less of a carbon footprint in order to incentivise airlines to invest in low emission aircraft. There is no differentiation on that at the moment.

We will take that. We will probably follow up again to put a structure on it in order that we can bring it back to the Minister.

Could the Chairman take the point Mr. Wilson just made as part of what we take away from the meeting?

I expect that the Minister will be favourably disposed to the proposal. Mr. Wilson referred to funding being spent to promote fuel efficiency. If airlines adopt it, they should be rewarded by reduced charges and the benefit should be passed on to passengers.

Mr. Eddie Wilson

Yes.

It is a circular model, basically.

Mr. Eddie Wilson

There are two things within it. One is existing airport charges. Airlines with a higher fuel footprint are no different from larger trains or buses. For aeroplanes that carry more passengers, you should spread the charges. There is accurate data now on CO2 emissions per passenger. If they are less and if you have larger aircraft that are more fuel efficient you should be charged less. The second thing - the circular one the Chair talked about - is that the money, instead of going into the school buses, goes into issues like sustainable aviation fuel and getting facilities at airports.

Many of the people here will not give out about school bus transport. It is a disastrous issue that we have to deal with on an annual basis. This is where I usually apologise for the fact that I may repeat myself. I am fairly sure that I will do so. The witnesses were clear in the points they made. Accommodation in this State is a disaster. That is having a major impact on the witnesses' business.

Mr. O'Leary dealt with the various crises we had in airports in the context of insufficient numbers of staff, including those who work in security and, baggage handling, and the limits relating to certain hub airports. He is obviously worried about what could happen over Christmas. Is he concerned that, in the context of next summer, we are not where we need to be?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

We are concerned. We are raising our concerns with Dublin Airport directly. We are concerned that there may be a shortage of security staff this Christmas. If they do not recruit in significant numbers now, we may be short again at Easter and for the peak period next summer. They will get through it, but we are not talking about a lot of additional security staff so there is no reason we should have those issues. It is a logistics and recruitment challenge.

One of the major points relates to the open skies agreement and direct flights. Mr. O'Leary stated that certain stakeholders have a difficulty in this regard. What conversations are taking place with the European Commission and others in the context of getting this going? Mr. O'Leary is not the first person to raise this matter in recent weeks.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Is the question specifically on environmental taxes or on open skies?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

We spent yesterday in Brussels with Airlines for Europe, A4E. There is huge frustration among MEPs and the Commission at the failure to make progress on open skies. Open skies has been a European Commission project for 21 years, but not one centimetre of progress has been made.

Mr. O'Leary said 20% of fuel would be saved. What was the other figure? I missed it. It was 90% of-----

Mr. Michael O'Leary

It was that., as a minimum, 90% of flight delays would be eliminated. The vast majority of flight delays are ATC faults.

Mr. Eddie Wilson

What is critical is everybody has flight radar on------

The technology is in a different place.

Mr. Eddie Wilson

The technology is there. Nobody has to change anything whatsoever. When they started this single European skies way back in 2000, this technology was not there. No changes have to take place. As Mr. O'Leary said, the Irish air traffic control system could operate it from here. EUROCONTROL, based in Belgium, could handle the overflights. It is all there ready to go.

Cool. On airport charges, the witnesses have been clear. It is pier D rather than the tunnel, which, it is fair to say, Mr. O'Leary is not a supporter of. There is much conversation, some of it geographically on the basis of where some of the Deputies that sit around here are from. Regional balance is a responsibility of Government policy. Mr. O'Leary has given his opinion as to which regional airports are fit for purpose and which can do business. Sometimes we have ended up in cul-de-sac conversations when we had disasters at Dublin Airport or when we needed to shift something. There might have been a simple solution, but we could not implement it in the context of displacement. The reality is that regional airports will only work on the basis of doing their own business. That may involve connecting into hubs across Europe, but it cannot be about displacement. We need a real conversation on that, and to drive it at top level.

In the context of new flight, is it Libya and Egypt that Ryanair is looking at?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

I was asked yesterday in Brussels whether we are looking at countries outside Europe. Ukraine was the country we were looking at. We had 2 million passengers flying to and from Ukraine when the invasion happened. We were shut down overnight. We are committed to Ukraine. We will be the first airline back in there, and we are working on a plan. Ukraine has a population the same size as Poland and we are the biggest airline in Poland. We had planned to base aircraft in four Ukrainian airports. If the war finishes in favour of Ukraine and the European safety authorities say it is safe to go back in there, we will open up two, probably three, bases in Ukraine. We could carry between 5 million and 10 million passengers there.

Going back to the regional airports, this is a political world and this island is a village so we recognise the challenges Deputies and Senators face from their local airports. I get letters every year, and I am not a politician, from Abbeyshrule airport stating that we could have jet services in and out of Abbeyshrule if only we built a runway there.

Is Ryanair considering that?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

No. I keep shooting it down. It is in the catchment area of Dublin and Knock. We do not need another runway in Dublin.

Ryanair has no plans for doing anything in Dundalk either.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Sadly, no. The Deputy is caught between Belfast and Dublin.

That is all right. I appreciate Mr. O'Leary's candour.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

A growing number of our employees live in Dundalk. It is one of the areas in which, increasingly, our employee base is happily living and commuting elsewhere.

It is a wonderful place. I am sure Mr. O'Leary would agree.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

I veer more towards the midlands.

I could not possibly comment. The witnesses have spoken of the big winds of sustainable aviation fuel and the new cohort of aeroplanes Ryanair has on order. With some of those jets, we are talking about improved technologies or whatever. Will the witnesses discuss the ins and outs of that and the wins that are to be had? What needs to be done to ensure that, across the board, we have a sustainable aviation policy that works? There is a difficulty with the plans regarding how quickly Ryanair can get some of these aeroplanes.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Boeing is challenged at the moment. We were supposed to get 51 aircraft delivered to us by the end of April next year. We were supposed to get 21 before Christmas but we will only get 12. We hope we will get about 40 of those 51 aircraft by the end of June, but will probably be left five or ten aircraft short. That will limit our growth next summer.

Definitely. What about aviation fuel and the improved technologies in the planes the company is getting?

Mr. Eddie Wilson

It is all about whether energy companies will be incentivised to produce that. It is three times more expensive than standard Jet A-1 aviation fuel. There is no joined-up thinking on this in Europe. Individual governments are mandating that airlines take so much, but nobody has put any thought into who will produce it.

One of the biggest plants producing at the moment is in southern Spain by one of the oil companies there. What they would produce in a year, however, we would use in one month. We need that type of volume.

So we are only playing around at the minute.

Mr. Eddie Wilson

Yes. In the United States, for example, in California, they are able to write off all the profits for sustainable aviation fuel. Something needs to be done with the energy companies to encourage them to do that. There is no point in saying there must be an uplift of 5% or 10% if it does not exist

Right. So it is a proper conversation by those who matter with the energy companies. Beyond that, is there still room for manoeuvre in relation to research? I imagine there is a significant amount happening at the minute.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

The difficulty with research is that because of the safety requirements in aviation new technology is very difficult. Look at the difficulty Boeing had. The Max was grounded for two years. It is a great aircraft. We get nine more seats per aircraft but burn 16% less fuel. Our fuel bill next year will be €5 billion. If we can save 16% of €5 billion it is very significant.

I was in Brussels yesterday meeting with French MEPs who were assuring me that Airbus will produce a hydrogen engine by 2035. I had to explain to them that we are already ordering the aircraft for 2035. There is no hydrogen engine going to arrive here before 2040 or 2050. Technology is not the solution. If we could do two simple things it would help, the first of which is to fix air traffic control, ATC. Europe is talking about having a sustainable aviation fuel, SAF, mandate, or 2% of SAF usage in the next five years. If we fixed ATC we would save about 20% of fuel, never mind 2%.

That sounds like an obvious, straightaway win. There are particular issues. The witnesses might not want to go into this but there has been the over and back with the booking.com screen scraping, and it is in the courts.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

I have a fundamental issue with the online travel agents, OTAs, who sit and use technology bots to scrape our inventory and then mis-sell it to consumers. Generally speaking, they overcharge them for hidden handling fees, inflate the prices, and then give us false email addresses. We had terrible trouble during Covid routing refunds back to people because we had a bogus or invented email address for them. We have taken a number of actions against booking.com. It has lost most of the cases. It is now taking some kind of defamatory action against us in the US for demeaning it. We do not demean it at all and we would be very happy to go to some US court and explain to the judge how these guys are ripping off consumers. We find it regrettable that our consumer protection agencies did not take action when we brought these specific cases to their attention.

So Mr. O'Leary is fairly sure that Ryanair is going to keep winning.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

With the screen scrapers who are online pirates, yes.

I have one last question - obviously, some of this is in the public domain as well - about the request by workers for pre-pandemic pay and conditions. Mr. O'Leary said that he has deals done with nearly all of the unions but I believe there is a case in the Workplace Relations Commission

Mr. Eddie Wilson

At the start of the pandemic we kept everybody employed. We did not have any redundancies and we agreed with the unions. Consider the pilots, for example. They took a 20% pay reduction. This was due to be restored in various phases out until 2025. We did agreements with well over 90% of the unions, including the cabin crew and engineering unions here in Ireland. They have all had their pay fully restored. They have done longer-term agreements, on a very sensible basis, to continue with employment. Unfortunately, the last union is the Irish Air Line Pilots’ Association which is in the WRC this week. Having got their money fully restored at this stage, we are hopeful that we will be able to come to some agreement. That framework has already been set down with all of the major unions in Germany, Italy, France, Sweden and all of those other countries. We would be reasonably confident.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

We are aware there is very considerable anger among our pilots here in Ireland that the Fórsa union has not agreed a similar pay restoration and pay increase agreement to that agreed by every other pilots' union across Europe.

Does Mr. O'Leary foresee a solution to this very quickly?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

I do not. I am not sure that the WRC is going to advance it, but we are happy to go there. Certain individuals in the Fórsa union have promised our pilots that they will get pay restoration back to pre-Covid. They will not. No other group has got it.

Go raibh maith agaibh.

I am conscious that other members wish to come so I ask members to stick strictly to time. Senator Craughwell has ten minutes.

I welcome both gentlemen to the House today. As my colleague said previously, Mr. O'Leary made aviation travel like jumping onto a bus. It is great to see. Back in the day we used to have to go on a boat. I went to England and many of the people I travelled with did not even speak English, but only spoke Irish. They were tough times. Mr. O'Leary has changed the world of aviation.

(Interruptions).

I am showing my age.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

I was on that boat and there were not that many speaking Irish.

I doubt if Mr. O'Leary was on it at the time I was. Mr. O'Leary is in aviation. How does he feel about the fact that our Department of Transport, which develops aviation policy, has been advised by the Air Accident Investigation Unit, AAIU, to have an aviator on its staff, and has ignored this advice or recommendation from the Air Accident Investigation Unit? As a company that flies in and out of this country, and which is working under the policy that is laid down by this country, how does Mr. O'Leary feel about the fact that such a recommendation from the AAIU is ignored?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

I have to be very careful here. Aviation safety is independently regulated by the Irish Aviation Authority, IAA. It should not be devolved to somewhere else. They are very experienced and very skilled at what they do. The reputation of Irish aviation is very high around the world as a result of what the IAA does, under the aegis of the European Union Aviation Safety Agency.

I am not quite sure about that suggestion. We would not want to see those skill sets devolved, or seen in any way in a grey area, by appointing aviation experts into the Department of Transport. The Department of Transport is not responsible for safety. The Irish Aviation Authority is and I would want us very much to keep that and for the IAA to maintain the very high standards it has there.

I do not believe it was recommending that the person would have safety expertise, but would have the expertise to talk to the IAA and to companies like Mr. O'Leary's. That is an important issue for me.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

One would then start to have two different sets of safety experts. The IAA has safety experts and the Department of Transport has very good relationships with the IAA. There is no shortage of access to IAA expertise. If the Department of Transport needs access to IAA expertise the IAA would happily provide it.

I am delighted to hear that.

Mr. O'Leary has spoken down through the years on the way we run this country, and particularly in the area of public procurement.

I ask Senator Craughwell to try to keep it in the area of aviation.

Let us not try to shut me down here.

We are supposed to be talking about aviation policy.

I ask Senator Craughwell to try to find some way to keep it on national aviation.

Public procurement is something Mr. O'Leary has spoken on quite frequently, and it applies to the airline industry as well. I am a Member of these Houses. Mr. O'Leary comes in here and is questioned by all of my colleagues and he answers the questions. We frequently find that those who are in charge of public procurement will not appear before these committees and will not answer questions. In his earlier submissions, Mr. O'Leary made the point that we should have greater oversight of these things. As the CEO of a major company-----

Senator Craughwell must be careful not to stray into-----

Do not worry, I will not stray anywhere. I am very clear as to where I am going. It is becoming a serious problem. Mr. O'Leary has spoken on national issues several times. It is becoming a serious problem that we cannot get decision-makers to come before committees in this House to answer questions in relation to how decisions were arrived at. This applies to projects such as the national children's hospital, the search and rescue service, and various other things. We are constantly confronted with commercial sensitivity. I am interested in Mr. O'Leary's opinion. He can tell me to go take a jump in the lake if he wants to but I would be interested. When Michael O'Leary speaks, people in Ireland to listen.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Taking it back to the aviation policy, all I can say about public procurement is that the Department of Transport has - I believe - initiated a consultants' report or study on the future plans for Dublin Airport. This, generally speaking but also in aviation, is where public procurement goes wrong.

Public procurement goes wrong because it starts with consultant reports instead of talking to the customer first. The first thing the Department of Transport should do is talk to Aer Lingus, Ryanair and the other airlines to find out what they need to enable them deliver this growth. I sometimes regret the amount of money and time that is wasted on consultant reports that fail to achieve much, where there are front-end customers in the health service that may well be patients. Certainly in aviation, airlines should speak on behalf of our customers.

How often do airlines meet the Department of Transport and the Minister and Minister of State?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Honestly, we rarely meet them. It is not that frequent. To be fair, that is not unusual. We do not meet with many Departments. We meet regularly with the airports because that is the service we need and provide. It is regrettable we have not had a sit-down. Every time a new Government takes office, the Department of Transport should sit down, not just with us, but with the other airlines and ask what it can do for us and how it can develop policy. That framework does not exist and has not existed under a number of recent transport Ministers.

We can certainly take that on board.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

One of the reasons we wished to come before the committee today was to air what we think policy should be and maybe use the committee to influence the Department of Transport.

Many people here wish to ask questions. I thank Mr. O'Leary for his candour and I am delighted he mentioned the issue of consultants. We have consultants for everything in this country and we are spending millions on them. I am glad he highlighted the point as well as me. It is rare as a former trade union leader I would agree with Mr. O'Leary on much but, there you go, we agree on this.

I welcome Mr. O'Leary and Mr. Wilson and thank them for their contribution to our economy and the provision of jobs. I ask Mr. O'Leary to keep repeating we are a peripheral nation dependent on air connectivity. Will the remarks of the Minister for Transport at COP27 have a negative effect on airline travel for us as a country?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Remarks generally will not have a negative effect but if the remarks are translated into action and Ireland sits there and allows additional levies to be imposed on aviation, it is not just Ireland's connectivity that will be threatened. With regard to the people who are involved in the green movement and are behind the green agenda, our tourism industry is huge and is very much dependent on low-cost access. We accept all of our passengers should pay an environmental charge but it should be fair and reasonable. I do not think the Minister's remarks will have an effect but if they are translated into continuing action that disadvantages peripheral countries around Europe, they could have a damaging effect in the future.

Mr. Willie Walsh was before the committee a couple of weeks ago. Mr. O'Leary struck a very similar theme in his presentation in the context of Dublin. It will be no surprise to Mr. O'Leary, given I am from Cork, that I will raise an issue with his presentation in the context of Cork, Shannon and other regional airports. What can the committee do to broaden the appeal of airports such as Cork and Shannon? I take Mr. O'Leary's point that one cannot artificially take the 60% of the inbound flying population. I know Mr. O'Leary is in negotiations with Cork Airport about a new deal having had conversations with him. I hope that goes well and he brings the third aircraft back for summer and winter of next year. I know this is a simplistic approach but I will take Reus as an example. Ryanair flies to Reus and Aer Lingus has abandoned Cork to Barcelona. Vueling may look at that route in the same way KLM did with Aer Lingus's Amsterdam route out of Cork. I will only ask the question in the context of Barcelona which is a major city with a population coming back as well as going out. Is there a reason Ryanair would not fly to Barcelona's main airport rather than Reus?

Mr. Eddie Wilson

Barcelona is full. The airport is slot-constrained and is not being expanded. Reus is a seasonal route for us but it has reasonable access into Barcelona. It is not that we are trying to have a secondary airport for Cork. We just do not have the slots.

How can we help to inform a different approach with regard to the 60% coming into Dublin? Mr. O'Leary and Mr. Walsh said the same thing.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

What Cork and Shannon can do best is be very competitive and have lower access costs than Dublin Airport. Cork has been held back for a number of years. To be fair, current management has changed that, but Cork published charges which were exactly the same as Dublin. If Cork Airport charges the same as Dublin Airport, the airlines and passengers will go to Dublin. Cork must be materially cheaper than Dublin. It has infrastructure and a labour market that allows it to be cheaper and the charges need to be lower at both Cork and Shannon. That is the only way forward.

Mr. O'Leary's previous employee, Mr. Jacobs, is taking over the new role as chair of DAA. I wish him well and propose we invite him, we he takes up tenure, to come before the committee. Will his experience of the aviation industry be a help or a burden to the DAA?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

He is a good guy. It will certainly be of help to the DAA to have somebody with at least a low-cost background. He had a very successful retail career before he joined Ryanair. It would certainly be helpful to the DAA and Dublin, Cork and Shannon airports to have his expertise. However, no matter who is put in to run Dublin Airport, it faces significant challenges. It is very heavily unionised. Hiring more labour and security is not easy and the airport does not move at great speed. We wish him well. I am sure we will be fighting with him pretty quickly into his tenure. The DAA is much bigger. It manages airports in the Middle East and Russia. The position is very challenging and exciting but there is much to be done. The first thing we will be critical of him for will be if he does not cancel this €200 million tunnel.

Mr. O'Leary has repeatedly raised the €200 million tunnel. Will he explain to members of the committee, people watching and those who are here from the media and reporting on the meeting the import of this tunnel and what it will do for the travelling public in Dublin Airport?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

It will do absolutely nothing.

Is that just Mr. O'Leary's view or is it a universal view?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

I doubt any airline could see a reason for it. This is a longer discussion. Dublin has two parallel runways which has been a terrific success. Dublin is one of the few airports in Europe with two runways. An old taxiway runs across them and the tower is at the far side. It is also where the McEvaddy lands are, which have been raised a number of times. The DAA wishes to drive buses under these instead of driving them across the taxiway to free up more of the land and, maybe at some point in the future, build a third terminal on the far side to sterilise the McEvaddy lands. It is all rubbish. It does nothing for traffic at Dublin Airport which needs additional terminal facilities on the north apron where the second runway is now open. We encourage and urge the DAA to get on with building the facilities we, the airlines, want and will pay for and stop screwing around with the west apron, which none of us care about or will ever wish to use. It is as simple as this: one can drive across that taxiway with railway bridges and stop-go lights. The aircraft do not taxi up and down it very frequently. Not alone does the DAA wish to pay €200 million to build a tunnel under a taxiway, but can one imagine the disruption to aircraft movements for 18 months or two years while they are tunnelling under it and having lorries between X and Y? It does nothing for the travelling passengers or the airlines. It is simply a way of inflating the capital base in order that the DAA will go to the regulator saying it had to spend on this money and needs a return.

Has Ryanair objected to its application for planning?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

We have objected to the planning as well because we feel so strongly about it.

Ryanair has put in a formal objection.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Yes.

Has Ryanair articulated that formally to the DAA as well?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Yes.

I thank Mr. O'Leary and Mr. Wilson for being here. I wish them well and I hope Ryanair concludes that deal in Cork because it is very much needed for our city and county.

I thank Mr. Wilson and Mr. O'Leary sincerely for coming to see us again. I will put on the record my thanks to them for everything they have done, especially in the past couple of years. Ryanair has done an immense amount of work for Irish aviation over the years.

We do not always agree on certain aspects of it but the proof of the pudding is the way Mr. O'Leary has built a company that sustained the Covid pandemic really well. Ryanair retained staff and was able to be back up and running when people right across Europe were depending on an Irish airline. It was good to see that so I thank the witnesses for that. I look forward to the company's continued growth and success.

A lot of people have talked about the national piece but I will stick to the domestic one. Let us look at Dublin for a second. I think what Mr. O'Leary is saying about Dublin Airport is right. He said it way back when the new terminal was being built. I asked Willie Walsh the same question here last week or the week before. The current terminal 2 is not fit for purpose. It was designed as a feat of engineering and architecture but anybody who goes through the airport regularly will know it is not fit for purpose, not just the machinery used for bags but the whole space. It is just not conducive to the movement of people but it looks great from outside. Mr. O'Leary rightly raised concerns we need to address with the management about the tunnel. I am sure there is a cheaper solution. Dublin Airport has reached capacity in its terminals. The area Ryanair occupies needs more space. So do the southern gates, which are also a bit of a mess. Whenever there is mention of increased capacity at Dublin Airport, people in the mid west, and I am sure in Cork although I do not want to speak for them, and in Clare in particular, sigh and say that if Dublin gets more capacity that will be the demise of Shannon. I would like to hear the witnesses' views on that, although I have a fair idea of what they are.

The business community in and around Limerick and Shannon, and Clare generally, talks about the necessity of direct connectivity to the likes of Schipol or Frankfurt. What would the witnesses say to Mary Considine? Maybe they are not in a position to provide advice but if they were to advise, given their very significant experience, on going into a facility like Schipol or Frankfurt, what should the airport be doing and how would it go about that?

Mr. Eddie Wilson

I do not agree with the idea that just because capacity increases in Dublin, it somehow or other means there is going to be an automatic reduction in the capacity or attractiveness of Shannon. Shannon has plenty of capacity for us to grow in terms of contact stands and terminal capacity in particular. It is all about Shannon making itself more attractive. The Senator will know that huge effort has gone into building the infrastructure in Shannon. Land Rover and companies like that have put in some of their research and development there. There are other engineering companies as well and they are trying to build up that sort of industrial park space around there. That in itself creates people who will bring employment in and make it more attractive to put roots in there. Shannon will not necessarily be affected by what happens in Dublin. It is its own unique destination but cannot grow as fast. Dublin is Dublin. As we said earlier, Dublin by itself will attract more people into Ireland, and hopefully they will make their way to the mid west as well, but Shannon has done a spectacular job. We had this see-saw approach for many years. To circle back to what the Chair said about what you want from the Department of Transport, it is exactly like what you want from an airport. You want predictability over a long period of time so you can allocate resources. If those resources are going to go to Shannon, or to Ireland, that is why we need that aviation policy so we can plan with certainty for the long term.

What could that policy do, over and above what Mr. Wilson has already said, to give more certainty about placing more aircraft for Ryanair's own business model in Shannon?

Mr. Eddie Wilson

There are two things, namely, that it is cheaper and there are more reasons to go there. If there are attractions or employees coming and going because of an expanded industrial framework down there, that is what you could do. You cannot do this thing by trying to grab the passengers from one part of the country to the other because it is about the people. Over 50% of the people are incoming and they may decide to come to Dublin rather than Shannon.

Could Mr. O'Leary use his genius to explain how to create demand or put in place a connection between one of those international hubs such as Schipol? I know there are constraints there and in Frankfurt. Is it doable?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

There is a great danger there in going back to 1960s thinking, which was all about hub airports and connecting flights. There is very little future for Irish regional airports in connecting flights and connecting to hub airports. We have moved beyond that. That was the Shannon stopover mentality of the 1950s and 1960s. People want to fly direct. Mr. Wilson and the team are working very closely with Mary Considine and her team to develop more direct flights and get incentives agreed so we can put more flights in. Even if they are only summer flights, summer flights, generally speaking, lead to more winter flights. We are desperately trying to grow that. In fact, we put some inbound services back into Shannon this winter as well. It is one of the great successes of the mid west. I will give one example. The dollar is incredibly strong at the moment. I brought my kids to Rome for the school midterm in October. You could not get in or out of Rome with the number of Americans wandering around. The dollar is very strong and American transatlantic traffic is phenomenally strong. Huge volumes of Americans are now coming to Dublin. They play golf in Portmarnock and then they head off down to the jewels of Adare, Lahinch, Ballybunion-----

All golf.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

That is an example of incredible success where the regions are benefiting from the growth and strength at Dublin Airport. My good friend JP McManus will have the Ryder Cup in Adare in 2026. I am sure we will get lots of traffic coming to Shannon in 2026. The way to build that traffic and help Shannon grow is to continue to make it easier for people who want to come to Dublin to come there but move them around the country when they get there. The real challenge here is to get them on the island first and then try to move them around it as best we can. If we are to insist that they can only go to Shannon or to Cork, we will not get them here.

When Willie Walsh was here, we were commenting on and feting Mr. O'Leary for his early investment in sustainable fuel research at Trinity College. Could he talk to us a little about that and what he is trying to achieve there? I ask him to connect it to what is happening in the mid west, where the ESB is proposing to generate hydrogen from offshore wind at the times of the day when the demand is not that great. There is an ecosystem developing there around hydrogen which, hopefully, based on the research that is out there, will become the component part for the sustainable fuels that Mr. O'Leary has invested in. I ask him to talk to us a little about that because that is really the future in terms of making aviation sustainable and green-friendly.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

At the moment, the fuel companies are working on developing sustainable aviation fuels but the volumes are tiny. They are minuscule. We are investing about €2 million a year with Trinity College, which has had remarkable success in the environmental area. There are some remarkable genius professors. Sustainable aviation fuel is a well-known technology but they are researching how to step up the volume. They are looking at building it from algae and all these different forms that are way above my pay grade. We cannot just take wheat or rapeseed out of the ground. That is not going to achieve it. They are doing great work. We are having a sustainability conference tomorrow in the business school in Trinity College where we are bringing in the oil companies. Some of our biggest investors are coming to Dublin tonight and we are going to spend tomorrow in Trinity examining how we can increase the funding for sustainable aviation fuels, both research and production. We are trying to infuse the academic with the financial. Some of our bigger investors are bringing their environmental, social and governance, ESG, teams to Dublin because it is an area, as the Senator rightly says, that we have to do much more on.

It is probably undervalued and under-recognised. The witnesses talked earlier about getting to net zero by 2050 and this is obviously an important part of that journey. I thank them again. They should keep at it, and keep an eye on Shannon.

The witnesses are vehemently opposed to the €200 million for the tunnel underneath the airport. They are very much in favour of a third terminal being built. It has come up. I expect what their response will be, but I need to put the question anyway. The argument would be that building a third terminal will just go to continue to grow Dublin. They are looking at other airports. I take the point. We have one airport dominating the eastern seaboard and four in all on the western seaboard, making up about 13% of travel flights at the moment. If we build a third terminal, what is the counterargument to say that is not going to have a further negative impact on the other airports? Is it not just going to continue to drive this big beast above in Dublin?

It is verging on a monopoly situation.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Incidentally, a third terminal would become a very politically sensitive issue.

You mentioned-----

Mr. Michael O'Leary

An extension of the existing terminal would do us fine. It was not a pleasant customer experience at pier D last summer.

If there were an extension of the existing terminal, what would it cost? Does Mr. O'Leary have an idea of the cost?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

It could be built readily. The existing pier D cost, excluding the link building, was approximately €120 million. Allowing for inflation a similar wing going north could be built for less than €200 million.

Mr. O'Leary is saying that for the same price as an underground tunnel, we could have an extension.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

There could be an extra terminal which would have stands for aircraft. A key capacity issue is whether there are enough stands for aircraft to park in.

Even if that were included, what is the argument that it would not develop a big beast that would put the other airports at a further disadvantage?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

The argument is that Dublin is already a big beast. It already has a second runway that is underutilised. It does not have enough capacity, stands or terminal capacity to allow us to add more aircraft in Dublin Airport. We are already growing in Shannon Airport. We have gone from two to three based aircraft there. We are talking about going from two to three based aircraft in Cork. This growth is entirely independent of Dublin. Dublin is already a big beast. The two are no longer interchangeable. We are not saying that if something is not done we will move planes out of Dublin to Shannon or out of Cork to Shannon. Shannon and Cork are growing very successfully on their own now.

If the extension to the terminal is built-----

Mr. Michael O'Leary

It will not make any difference to Cork and Shannon at all, as long as the cost piece-----

How will it improve the experience of passengers coming through Dublin Airport?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

It will create more terminal and gate space for passengers in Dublin Airport. This is very badly needed, particularly in pier D, which is where all of the Ryanair flights go from.

That is in terminal 2.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

It is pier D in terminal 1.

At the beginning of my contribution, I must note that my wife works for Ryanair in the new maintenance hangar in Shannon.

The Deputy is being very good.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

At least one member of the family is productive.

Mr. Eddie Wilson

All leave for Christmas has been allocated already.

We can see the impact in Shannon and the wider region of Ryanair's decision to invest in maintenance. It is fantastic. The airport is a driver of economic activity. It means so much to business and tourism. Ryanair says it hopes to grow passenger numbers there by another 1 million. This is great. Does Ryanair have a timeframe for this? When does it expect this growth to happen?

Mr. Eddie Wilson

The map we showed on our second slide showed there are 230 airports. If Shannon is a base it will open connections with those 230 airports potentially. If we had a framework with a low-cost deal or a national aviation policy it would mean the people in Dublin who do the route planning would know with certainty that the cost base would be set for a number of years. It would give more certainty. In Ryanair we simply call it joining the dots. That is all we do in any of the bases or airports. It is about long-term cost certainty, the track record, what works and what does not work. Then we just add it.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

I want to add to this but I will be careful. We are linking this to Ireland successfully rebalancing environmental taxation throughout Europe. The Irish Government should join other peripheral states in Europe and state it is no longer willing to accept that our passengers should pay all of the environmental burden. If the environmental tax reduced from €4.50 per passenger to €2 per passenger, we would deliver additional growth in Shannon and Cork in three years from the date it is reduced. We would not even have to wait five years. Because of scale, Dublin would take longer. We would commit to this additional growth. It would be the incentive. Shannon is already low cost. Cork is pretty low cost. It is the penalty of the environmental taxes in peripheral regional airports that is holding back very aggressive traffic development.

It was said that at one point Cork Airport charged the same as Dublin Airport. How competitive is Shannon? Is it cheaper than Cork or Dublin?

Mr. Eddie Wilson

We do not go into the commercial detail of deals in terms of our arrangements. What I can say is that at present in Cork we are at a very advanced stage in trying to put in place incentives to give us the certainty to put the third aircraft back in for next summer and have a framework to grow it. We have a similar arrangement in Shannon. It is not that we will play one off against the other. We have already committed to the aircraft in Shannon and we are pretty much there in Cork I hope.

With regard to a fair and balanced environmental charge, there may be an opportunity for Ireland to work with other peripheral countries, such as Malta, Portugal and Spain, to lobby for this. If Ryanair were to design it how would it look? Would it be a cheaper charge?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

No, it would be a fairer charge. We expect every passenger travelling to and from Europe, whether on long haul or a transfer flight, to pay their fair charge. I would argue that the charge for short-haul flights should reduce from €4.50 to €2 50. People continually misunderstand this and say it is only €2 and nobody really minds €2. If they did not mind €2 we would have taken the €2 off them 25 years ago. People mind 10 cent. If people are looking at two attractively priced flights to two alternate destinations, one with higher access costs with an environmental tax and the other with lower access costs and no environmental tax, people will move in their hundreds of thousands. It is incredibly price sensitive.

It was mentioned that Ryanair uses 12.5% sustainable aviation fuel.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

That is the target for 2030.

To what extent is it used at present?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

We are struggling to get to 1% at present. In some airports it is better. There is a supply in Schiphol. We have done a partnership agreement with Neste. In Schiphol 40% of our fuel uplifts are with sustainable aviation fuels but we are a small operator in Schiphol.

Where is this country in terms of the provision of sustainable aviation fuel?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Regrettably nowhere. There is almost no sustainable aviation supply in Ireland. It is a point we make to the Government with regard to policy. If the Government is earning approximately €140 million a year in environmental taxes directly from air passengers it should be using the money to promote and supply sustainable aviation fuels at our airports.

If Mr. O'Leary were the CEO of Shannon Airport, what would he lobby for to be in the new aviation policy? This would be for Shannon specifically.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

I do not understand all of the facets of Shannon. It is bigger than just the airport. The only upside of Brexit has been the return of duty free on flights to and from the UK. It is a major issue. We have spoken to some Italian airports that have seen their commercial income double from €15 spend to €30 spend per passenger. Shannon, Cork and Dublin are benefiting. If I were in Shannon Airport I would be doing two things. I would be trying to get the Department to lower my costs. I do not know what costs it has that could be lowered. Certainly the costs it pays for air traffic control are very high but I do not know the details. I am not intimately associated with its business. I would also try to ensure that we get many more duty-free flights. One of the reasons more growth will be available from the UK to Ireland in the next three or four years is because duty-free is back on the UK flights. The airports will make more money out of it. We sell more cigarettes and booze on board those flights. We will all make out a little bit better. I would rather it was not there and that the UK returned and became a member of the European Union but Brexit is a tragedy that will take ten years to reverse.

Air traffic control has been mentioned continuously during the meeting. How does it affect Ryanair? Ryanair is losing out on flights and wasting time and money. There is a different regime in every country. Has Ryanair made submissions to Europe on this?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

We have made thousands. The biggest challenge we have with air traffic control every summer is that air traffic controllers either do not show up to work on a Saturday morning or are not rostered to show up to work.

Why do air traffic control restrictions across Europe always happen on Saturday? Our punctuality on Tuesdays and Wednesdays in the busy summer season will run at 92% or 93% because almost all the air traffic controllers show up to work while on Saturdays and Sundays, particularly after a football match, air traffic control slots are all over the place. It is not about capacity; it is because people will not show up for work and they will not take a stick to the people who will not show up for work. We have pilots who are rostered five days and do five on and four off but they show up to work on Fridays and Saturdays. If we got the air traffic controllers to just do that but they are a tiny, incredibly cosseted and overpaid but powerful unionised group. Each has a national union that can shut down the skies over their country and significant parts of the EU.

Mr. Eddie Wilson

Nine air traffic controllers went on strike in France in September.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

And picketed one of the-----

Mr. Eddie Wilson

We and EUROCONTROL were told there would be no disruption as it was a small-scale strike. With sympathetic action, it spread. Every airline had the worst day of punctuality in its history with less than 50% flights being on time.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

We were forced to cancel 600 flights that day because nine French air traffic controllers not only went on strike but picketed their two different air traffic control centres. Six hundred flights is approximately 120,000 passengers. We then have to put them up in hotels, pay their right to care and provide them with refunds. Under EU law, we are allowed to recover our costs from whoever caused the delays except every national air traffic control provider has national protection from being sued so we are stuck in the middle. We would rather not be stuck in the middle. We would rather not have the delays in the first place. What could happen is in a single European sky, if the French want to go on strike and cannot provide the services, we call Ireland and say, "You provide the service across France that day. Not a bother, off you go." There is no such thing as an air traffic controllers' strike in North America. Well they do occasionally go on strike but Reagan fired them all. I am not saying that is a solution. Reagan fired them all in 1980. They are federal employees so they are not allowed to go on strike. There are many other solutions here such as binding arbitration before going on strike. Many times French air traffic controllers go on strike not because they want more pay; it is because they do not like Macron or did not like the result of the football match. It is recreational striking. All the strikes generally take place on Fridays and then they do not show up for work on Saturdays so they have a three-day weekend. Nobody will tackle this across Europe but we are the ones telling our passengers: "I'm very sorry, your flight to Italy is cancelled because nine guys in France are on strike."

How has Brexit impacted on travel to the UK? Mr. O'Leary said that he thinks Brexit will take ten years to unravel. Does he believe that the UK will effectively reverse Brexit in time?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

No. The vast majority of people in the UK accept that Brexit has not been a success. I would not want to discuss it as a failure. It has not been a success. It has caused untold damage to the UK economy. The problem is that the Brexiteers are still in senior positions in the Tory Party. The most immediate impact of Brexit on us has been incredible restrictions in the labour market in the UK. We pay our cabin crew above retail, hospitality and agriculture so we have never had any difficulty getting people but lots of UK kids do not want to work as cabin crew anymore so we bring in Italians, Portuguese or, in some cases, Poles. We are no longer allowed to bring them in. We can apply for visas. It was remarkable. Last year, we applied for visas for cabin crew in Stansted Airport. The Home Office would give us visas for Moroccans and Turks and would not give us visas for Portuguese and Italians. If you had a European passport, it would not give you a visa. It is irrational stuff.

How does Mr. O'Leary think it will unravel?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

What is inevitable in the next 12 or 18 months is that the UK will do a trade deal with the EU. That is the only way to solve the Northern Ireland protocol problem. It is insolvable until there is a trade deal. A sensible trade deal between the UK and the EU must make the Northern Ireland protocol go away. The Northern Ireland economy is benefiting hugely from being in the EU but not in the EU. The unionists have a huge problem with it and one can understand their political difficulty with it. As Clinton said on a number of different occasions, it is always about the economy, stupid. If isolationism worked, North Korea would be the world's most successful economy. It is not. The UK cannot be Europe's most successful economy by being isolationist and doing stupid trade deals with Australia.

So Mr. O'Leary sees a trade deal between the UK and the EU.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

A trade deal will be done. In ten years, the UK will probably want to rejoin - possibly not the EU but a wider EU. We estimate that half the people who voted for Brexit have since died. A huge majority of the over-80s voted for Brexit while a huge majority of the under-30s voted to remain. The demographics will fix this in the next-----

However, Mr. O'Leary sees a trade deal being done between the UK and the EU. Common sense will prevail.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Common sense will prevail. To be fair, with Sunak and possibly Jeremy Hunt, you have more common-sense people at the top. We saw last week when the Treasury was talking about having a trade deal and more freedom of labour, straightaway The Daily Telegraph, The Daily Mail and all the lunatics were jumping up and down demanding commitments. Generally, when voters vote in an election, they vote on the economy and I hope that some sort of common sense would prevail.

It is good to hear that Ryanair is in negotiations with Cork Airport. As a fellow Corkonian, I am delighted that the company is recovering. There is exceptional leadership at the airport from Neil McCarthy and his colleagues.

I am on the record of this committee as having a serious issue with the DAA over its handling of what has happened in terminal 1 and the capacity constraints there. I met DAA officials around 8 October about terminal 1 in Dublin Airport and the tunnel that has been very much discussed here today. I have yet to receive an official response from that meeting. I know we are looking at putting this on the work programme. I want to get a better insight into Ryanair's view and position. According to the DAA, it does not have any intention of putting up any terminal infrastructure, extension of piers, etc., until 2029. If you were to take the 2019 figures of around 33 million, it will hit those figures again next year if the economy remains relatively stable, which is was already in excess of the statutory cap at the airport. What is Ryanair telling the Government regarding its views on that gap between 2019 and 2023 where it is effectively trying to run a cattle mart there with the level of passengers it intend to put through terminal 1? I have flown through it many times with Ryanair. I love flying with Ryanair. It is very simple. I always use the airline but the experience at terminal 1 is awful. I wanted to get Ryanair's perspective on that gap.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

We would share those views and that sentiment. Dublin Airport has an extraordinary opportunity now that it has opened a second runway. There are certain planning restrictions we want to see eased. Having a second runway there is infrastructure that will serve Ireland well for the next 50 years. The airport does not have sufficient terminal capacity. What was happening in pier D and the old pier A in terminal 1 this summer was not safe. There was huge overcrowding and we tried to get flights out as quickly as possible. It was difficult for passengers to get to the aircraft. We need an extension of pier D. The only way it can extend is up in front of the old hangars. We have been calling on Dublin Airport to develop that for probably the past two or three years. It can be done in the next two or three years. The money is there to do it. You just divert the €200 million you are proposing to waste on a tunnel and develop the passenger facilities that need to be built there. Some of the old hangars have to be moved. They can go over the west side because the aircraft can move across a taxiway without any difficulty.

An interesting point of conversation concerns the moving of those hangars. In terms of who has them, what could happen with them? Could they go to Shannon or Cork airports? Is the State in a position-----

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Be very careful. We have two of those hangars. We would happily move them in the morning. Those hangars would have to be rebuilt over on the west apron but we need those hangars. They do the maintenance. We have 37 aircraft based in Dublin Airport. Conor McCarthy's firm, Dublin Aerospace, has one of the large ones there. It can move quite readily. It does contract maintenance. That could move to Shannon Airport.

That is a matter for that company. The facility is there. The legendary hangar 6, which is largely empty because it is not used very much, does not have to move at all because the building would never go down as far as hangar 6. Very little disruption would take place. The advantage of building something on the north apron is that one can access it from the existing multi-storey car parks and one would be going across to it. My problem originally with Terminal 2 was that it was built in a cul-de-sac, down in the wrong place. One cannot easily walk between the two terminals.

Where does Ryanair see the DAA, in Dublin Airport in particular, hitting crisis point? With the current growth trajectory, the level of passengers will hit a point where it will just not be sustainable. Will we go back to what we had during the Covid-19 period, when there were significant queues, etc.?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

I do not want to use emotive language like “crisis point". The passenger experience in Dublin Airport is going to be suboptimal, certainly in Terminal 1 at piers A and D, through the summer of 2023 and probably again in the summer of 2024. We have had very little additional growth. We have already planned to deliver additional growth in 2023 and 2024.

When we move into the later 2020s, does Mr. O’Leary not see a situation-----

Mr. Michael O'Leary

The barrier to growth in Dublin Airport will be its terminal capacity. We would be willing to put another two, three or four aircraft into Dublin Airport but there is nowhere to park them. If we cannot park them on a stand to get them in and out; we will not bus passengers around airports.

Part of the statutory remit of the DAA is to turn a profit for the State. Obviously, any profits it makes must come back to the coffers of the Departments of Public Expenditure and Reform and Finance. What Mr. O’Leary is discussing here today will require a very significant amount of capital, regardless of whether it is decided to redistribute the €200 million pool of funding which is allocated for the tunnel. A great deal more money will be required to do some of the works at the airport that will be needed for additional capacity.

The other side of the argument is that the DAA must, essentially, make a profit. Does Mr. O’Leary have a concern about the structure of the DAA - how it is set up - in that the State is virtually required to take money from it regardless of whether it has difficult decisions to make about capital infrastructure? Of course, it cannot get State money directly under EU rules because the airport has over 3 million passengers. My understanding is that the DAA cannot receive direct infrastructure grants in the same way as Shannon and Cork have benefited greatly from. What is Mr. O’Leary’s perspective on the statutory remit of the organisation when it comes to getting the infrastructure that we need built?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Statutory remits are a movable feast. We certainly know that around this building. The DAA has a number of different remits. There is a board writing ministerial instructions to the Commission for Aviation Regulation, CAR, to the effect that in any determination, the financial viability of Dublin Airport takes precedence over everything else. I would not worry too much about Dublin Airport. It is not going to struggle. It is very profitable. It wastes significant amounts of money building stuff which is not necessary and we do not need or want. It keeps digging up the same concrete. It will dig up concrete on the ramp which it poured three or five years ago. It is always repairing some concrete. The airport spends money prodigiously. Sadly, it is usually spent in the wrong places.

I do not want to rehash the issue of Terminal 2 but the DAA spent nearly €2 billion on that terminal and only managed to deliver 12 additional pier-served stands. It has since had to convert the old cargo building so that Aer Lingus could put more stands over there. Aer Lingus has to bus its passengers out to that building. Having spent €2 billion, it is a disgrace what has been built there.

We come back again to choices. Do we really want to spend €200 million building a tunnel under a taxiway that nobody needs, or do we want to spend €200 million building increased facilities for passengers? We could have increased duty-free shopping and restaurants. There is a great deal of money there and it is self-financing.

The big cost at an airport that is difficult to finance is runways. The DAA has managed to build a second runway and it does not need to build another runway for the next 100 years. It now to build very efficient low-cost terminal facilities so that we can reduce costs and add more flights at lower access airfares for Ireland’s connectivity. As we have set out here, we want to pursue an ambitious programme of growing from 38 million passengers to 57 million passengers over the next five to six years.

I have another question which is a little left-field. I want to get a sense of Mr. O’Leary's views on it. This is the first time we have had a ministerial role specifically to deal with aviation. The Minister of State in question, who is serving in a super-junior capacity, effectively shares the aviation portfolio at departmental level with a Cabinet Minister who might not be the most supportive of aviation from an emissions point of view. How does Mr. O’Leary consider that this arrangement is working in the current Government? We are approaching 17 December, when will have a reformed Cabinet, a new Government and a new Taoiseach. The Government will need to take decisions that protect aviation and ensure continued growth in the sector. It will have to look at issues such as sustainable fuel. What does Mr. O’Leary consider is needed from a Government point of view to give him the protection he needs at the Cabinet table?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

My personal view is that aviation is vital to our connectivity, as an island on the periphery of Europe, and should not be a junior ministry. I am unsure about the split of aviation but I am equally unsure that I would necessarily agree with having transport subsumed into a Department of the environment. Transport should be with tourism - it belongs with tourism - and the environment should be separate.

Mr. O’Leary believes that aviation should not be separate and should be effectively under one person at the Cabinet table.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

It seems to me that access to and from this peripheral island should be a senior Cabinet position. Having said that, I compliment the Minister of State. When we had the baggage crisis at Dublin Airport, she was sent out in very difficult circumstances to lead the Government response to it and led it very well. Mr. Wilson had frequent meetings with her and I had a number of Zoom interactions with her. I pay credit to the work she did but I call into question why this responsibility was devolved to a junior Minister to deal with when the senior Minister should have been at the front and centre of it. That is my personal point of view.

That is very interesting. In conclusion, it is great to have Mr. O’Leary here. From the point of view of Cork, it is great to see that he is looking at the potential for an additional base to be given for his aircraft. We wish him continued success and I thank him.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

I thank Deputy O’Connor.

Deputy Duncan Smith has ten minutes.

I thank Mr. O’Leary for appearing before the committee today. I wish to continue the discussion on the tunnel at Dublin Airport. The DAA would pride itself as being quite profitable, professional, forward-thinking, well planned and all the rest of it. Mr. O’Leary is saying that the DAA is wasting €200 million on this. The DAA is saying that there is a safety element to it, because it will be taking 3,500 vehicle movements off the tarmac, and that this is backed up by the safety regulator. Does Mr. O’Leary consider that there is any credibility to that argument?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

None whatsoever. I am sure that there is a consultants report which it has paid for which justifies why it needs to waste-----

I represent the Dublin Fingal constituency and I was a county councillor in Swords, so I have been receiving the DAA’s literature through the door for years. It would seem to me to be a very growth-oriented organisation. It would only be chomping at the bit to add another pier or terminal to improve capacity. Why is it not doing this?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

This is not happening because there is a degree of regulatory gaming going on in the system. How does one increase the charges? One does so by persuading the CAR that we have to commit to these very significant capital expenditure projects which are vital from a safety point of view, and one then comes up with rubbish like a €200 million tunnel under a taxiway.

My apologies, but surely the DAA would value profitability over increased charges. Mr. O’Leary is laying out, as he has done continually for many years, growth plans for Dublin Airport if he was given the scope to do so.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Yes.

Surely the DAA would say that it was better off to take a particular course of action because ultimately, its bottom line would improve and it would be able to reinvest, etc. Mr. O’Leary’s view on this just does not add up as to why-----

Mr. Michael O'Leary

One has a regulated monopoly here. Heathrow Airport is the same. Heathrow Airport's response to the Covid-19 crisis was to put up charges by 50%. If one is a regulated monopoly, the easier way to make more profit is to get the regulator to increase one’s charges and to then say “sorry, we just have to charge higher prices because of all this vital infrastructure we have". In the private sector, I have to spend €20 billion in the next five years buying 200 new aircraft. I cannot go to anybody to ask if I can put my prices up because I am spending €20 billion on new aircraft. I do not have any consultants report to justify it and must live within my means to try to fill those aircraft. I know of no other airport in Europe, and can find no such example that is not a regulated monopoly, that would come up with a crazy plan to tunnel under an existing taxiway that one can drive across quite readily, and spend €200 million doing so.

The Deputy must understand that the DAA is a big beast. There is a very significant infrastructure at middle management level in the DAA of architects, planners, developers and project managers who will all be out of jobs if one cannot keep feeding this monster.

Surely those architects could just as easily be served building another pier.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Sure.

My point is that the DAA appears before our committee regularly enough and will say that it operates in the marketplace, in the private sector, and must turn a profit.

Dalton Philips would have a very private sector kind of view to my mind, at least. For me, it does not add up that it would not want to. Is the friction that continues to exist between the DAA and Ryanair resolvable? Surely it is not good for Ireland? It cannot always be just about airport charges all the time. It feels like this is going on for decades, since I was in my teens, with Ryanair versus DAA. These are two good news stories, if you want to look at it in a purely economic perspective, but there is always this friction.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Again, do not get caught up in the PR. We have worked successfully with the DAA over a number of years. We have grown to be by far and away its largest competitor. We have delivered it growth in years when its other large airline has seen traffic decline. It is a bit like a marriage. You fight occasionally with your partner but you kiss and make up and finding a way. You usually do what she tells you. We should naturally have a tension ------

The tension is quite public all the time and maybe the kissing and making up is in private.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

I do not think so. We hold new route launches with Dublin Airport. We had a very good relationship with Dalton Philips. We were very supportive of Dublin Airport. We could have been out there last April, May and June during the baggage crisis, castigating it and saying, "We told you this. This is a rubbish public sector", but we did not. We said we need solutions and suggested calling in the Army. We said that we would open our check-in desks earlier. We paid our people more to come in early. We checked in bags the night before. On the ground, we have very good relations with the DAA. It is not us that came up a plan to spend €200 million on a tunnel. That is a DAA proposal. We challenged the proposal. We are happy to debate it, whether here or somewhere else. We are not in here just taking pot shots at the DAA. But if we are asked to put together a sensible, forward-looking aviation policy for Ireland it is one with lower charges in Shannon and Cork to allow them to grow and one that stops wasting money at Dublin airport. We do not say €200 million should not be spent, we just ask to please spend €200 million on extending the passenger facility, which is where we need it and suggest that if the DAA wants to build a tunnel under it, to do it in ten years' time.

They should not be mutually exclusive. I want to see the airport thrive because I want to see workers with well-paid jobs in the airport being able to live locally as they have done and to continue to grow towns such as Swords, as has been the case over the years. That is where I am coming from.

Mr. O'Leary's opening statement referred to the move to lower-cost airports. We had an issue which has been well documented at this committee about how standards collapsed at Dublin Airport for a couple of months this year. In a subsequent contribution, Mr. O'Leary said they would be suboptimal by 2023. How can we get the balance between a lower-cost airport equalling a poorer customer experience? I feel that the success of Ryanair particularly in driving lower-cost fares has fed into lower-cost airports, which is ultimately a bad thing because the experience in airports of poor toilet facilities, lack of coffee facilities and generally queuing from when you get out of your car or bus to when you get onto the plane.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Sure.

There has to be a balance there. There cannot just be a shed that we process people through.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

There absolutely is and the Deputy should remember that Dublin Airport was not the only airport this summer where the terminal experience was terrible. It was terrible in Heathrow, Schiphol and everywhere. The airports fundamentally did not line up recruitment sufficiently. There were difficult areas where low-cost employment is difficult. Most airports around Europe made a mess of recruitment this year. Security and cleaning in the terminals was awful. I worry more about other things. Dublin Airport is more profitable now than it was five years ago. It did build pier D where we are, but we have filled pier D. We say that we want to continue to grow at Dublin Airport but you need another pier D or extend the existing pier D. Do not build a new terminal or go off and do something silly but just extend that. It should replicate exactly what it did before. We know what it cost before. It was €120 million, so this one should cost about €160 or €180 million. It should do that and then we are all agreed. That will be a better experience because there will be more gates for passengers and more seating areas for passengers and a little more retail and restaurants for passengers, which they are short of at moment, without having to walk another mile to get because you are just extending what is already there.

Mr. Eddie Wilson

Travel will become routine for everybody. There is all the talk about airport experience but people do not want to go to airports. They want to get through and to get in and out of them as quickly as possible. People got used to arriving about an hour or an hour and 15 minutes before their flight on the assumption that they were going to get through security. It is only when the carousel style stopped during Covid that people realised that was what an airport was about. Airports will have you believe, however, that it is all about the shopping experience. If you look back at the track record, there is no perfect knowledge about the right airport to build. We all knew when it was building terminal 2 that when you have two buildings and you put a narrow way across that you could never move those facilities around. We knew what we were talking about then. We are the customers. We want to get people through as quickly as possible. If there is a good airport experience as they make their way through and if it is as basic as coffee shops, toilets and a shopping experience, that is it.

Those are the basics that I am talking about. I am not talking about the Toblerones. I am talking about the basics.

Mr. Eddie Wilson

But the basics came into focus during Covid.

Absolutely, yes.

It is has been five years since Ryanair has recognised trade unions and has been engaging with them. How has that impacted on the culture of the organisation from Ryanair's perspective? Could it and should it have done so earlier?

Mr. Eddie Wilson

I did most of the negotiation with the unions. What happened was everything and nothing changes. We have a particular business model and there was a certain kind of comment about what Ryanair was supposed to be doing or whatever but you cannot have $22 billion of aircraft arriving and not be paying people correctly and at the right pay to service those aircraft. We were doing all that right anyway. When we went through the negotiations with unions, gradually with those agreements that came in, people realised that if someone is a 737 pilot in Shannon and there is no one else in Shannon with a 737 and you can live two miles down the road, then you have the best job in aviation if you want to live in Shannon, Cork or Pescara or wherever. Equally, those people will know that you have to work the rosters that a low-cost airline works and have the sustainability in employment. Then gradually, common sense came through on that. We have largely the same agreement. We go through consultation pretty much in the same way. It has taken a lot more resources for us to get to the same end point because people have well-paid jobs, promotions, growth and they have a good chance, if we do not already have an airport in their backyard, that we will have one quite soon. It is one of the best jobs that you can have in aviation from an employment perspective.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

As the person who was most virulently opposed to unionisation for 20 years in Ryanair, I think the past five years have demonstrated that we have learned from the unions but the unions have also learned from us. We went through Covid, which was an existential crisis. We did not fire everybody, which is what most of our unionised competitors did. We kept people employed. We did agree pay cuts with pilots, cabin crew and engineers across the board, because it was the only way that we were going to survive through that, but we kept everybody current. We also put in place a five-year pay deal that involved pay restoration plus agreed pay increases over the next couple of years. As Mr. Wilson said, they have been agreed with over 90% of our people. We have learned to work with unions. The unions have learned to work with us. We will not put up with some of the nonsense that they go on with but thankfully they go on with very little nonsense and they will equally say that they will not put up with a lot of the nonsense that I go on with when I have learned that maybe a little less nonsense out of me goes a long way too.

We have learned. We have very good businesslike working relationships with 90% of our unions. The Irish pilots are still the only ones who have not agreed a restoration and we hope that as a result of the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, intervention next week that we will get that done. We would like to restore their pay before Christmas. All we have said to them is that we will restore their pay the minute they agree to the same sort of pay deals as those to which all their pilot colleagues across Europe have agreed. What is not to like?

I thank Mr. O'Leary. I have loads more but I have run out of time.

Ryanair is investing $22 billion in new aircraft. Over what period?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Between now and the end of 2025.

That is over the next three years.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

We have 71 aircraft in already. That is over $7 billion. Hopefully there will be another 51 by next summer, which is another $5 billion.

Ryanair has 189 aircraft at the moment. Is that correct?

No, while we have 189 seats in the aircraft at the moment, we have-----

How many aircraft in total does Ryanair have at the minute?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

We have approximately 520 aircraft at the moment and that will rise to just under 660 or 670 aircraft by the summer of 2026.

The 520 aircraft figure will increase by another 140 by the summer of 2026. In layman's terms, what is Ryanair doing in terms of the aircraft it is replacing? Is it bringing in the type of aircraft it is currently changing?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

I will get the number slightly wrong but we have approximately 470 Boeing 737 next generation, NG, aircraft, in our core fleet; the oldest of which dates from about 2001 or 2002. We are gradually replacing the older of those aircraft with new Boeing 737 MAX planes which are 197-seat aircraft.

How many aircraft does that $22 billion involve?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Approximately 210. It is more than $110 million per plane.

Of the current 520 aircraft, assuming that the 140 aircraft will be included in the new 210 aircraft that are coming on stream, that leaves the bones of 80 planes. If 80 of the 520 are new and 480 of those old, will all of them be able to deal with the new fuel and all that?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

There is a misunderstanding in some quarters that sustainable aviation fuel is something different. All it is that the sustainable fuel gets mixed in with jet kerosene.

For the layperson out there, in terms of the existing aircraft, why is Ryanair then replacing so many planes? Is that the norm in the industry?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

We are not replacing that many. We are gradually taking out the old planes. Ryanair is growing very rapidly at the moment; typically by 10 million to 15 million passengers a year. Most of the new aircraft deliveries are for new growth and new routes. We also have to keep the fleet's age down. The average age of the fleet is about seven years old and we want to keep that average age below ten. We are growing so strongly at the moment that we are retiring fewer older aircraft than we had originally planned.

Going back to Mr. O'Leary's point about the new sustainable fuel, why is so little of that being produced in Ireland?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

At the moment, most of the production is being driven by the major oil companies such as Shell, BP and others. It is generally made from converting food crops such as rapeseed oil-----

How do we get to a point where Ryanair will be able to fuel up on all sustainable fuels and have access to it?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

It would be difficult to get to all sustainable fuels. We would need the Government-----

That is the question.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

-----to actually apply pressure to create more investment in people such as farmers who are selling rapeseed oil and those other products that will produce sustainable aviation fuel.

If that does not happen, how does Ryanair get to its target of zero emissions by 2050 and by 2030------

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Some 12.5%. The 12.5% is the more challenging target in that.

How do you get to that if we are working actively with fuel suppliers?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

We are working actively with fuel suppliers. We are having a conference tomorrow with OMV, Neste, Shell tomorrow, and we have major plans with BP. We have to work with the fuel companies to produce that volume. If we take all of the sustainable aviation fuel production across Europe at the moment, it would power less than 1% of our flights.

Is it fair to say as part of the aviation strategy, Mr. O'Leary would like to see the Government taking a more proactive role in encouraging and promoting this area?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Yes, and subsidising it. Taking the environmental taxes in and subsidising because at the moment-----

What about the other countries in Europe? Are you getting any there?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Yes. The Dutch, for example, are subsidising sustainable aviation fuel so it trades at exactly the same price as jet fuel. They are using some of their environmental revenue for that; the Irish Government should be doing the same.

Mr. Eddie Wilson

I will add on to that regarding unsustainable aviation fuel. I mean you can turn a piece of wood into sustainable aviation fuel if you have enough energy to do it. Some of the comment is misinformed. It is a blend that goes in to the fuel. There will not be any trucks going around with sustainable aviation fuel written on the side; it will all be done at the refinery. It will come from diverse sources, such as food fats from restaurants. Some of that infrastructure has to be in place and saying where that is going to come from is some of the work that Trinity College Dublin is doing. Ultimately, it will all go through the same infrastructure and flights-----

Is the work being done with Trinity feeding into Government policy?

Mr. Eddie Wilson

We hope it will.

That is something.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Not yet, but we think it will educate Government policy going forward.

There are three non-members with five minutes each. We have to be out of here by half past four. I will try to bring in members at the end very briefly.

I welcome Mr. O'Leary and Mr. Wilson. I had business dealings with Mr. O'Leary over 20 years ago which he will hardly remember but he has not lost any of his forthrightness in the interim.

Deputy Shanahan has not lost his Waterford accent yet.

Mr. Wilson knows I was on the Covid-19 committee and we certainly lobbied hard for the aviation sector and I am a big supporter of it.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

We were very grateful for the support we received.

I noted Mr. O'Leary's comments on the aspirations of Ryanair to continue to develop the short-haul sector and that Ireland represents 8% of the company's overall dynamic at the moment. With respect to Waterford Airport expansion, of which I have obviously been a strong supporter, I note his comments. I do not think it is helpful at this time to have a debate about where the funding for that is going to come. Private investment will happen and there is a lot of diligence and business analysis going on there and I think it will come down to a commercial proposition in the future obviously. I will say there are many people who have been speaking about the dysfunction of the DAA airports. They have spoken and we have been listening. This will not be a DAA-managed airport. There will be opportunities and I hope Ryanair will come back to the base from where it started its absolutely fantastic rise.

I will mention the issue of the European regulation because this is really at the heart of where the committee needs to be as well. Mr. O'Leary has stated that overflights cannot happen during a strike situation and he has outlined how this impacted the airline this year. Also mentioned was the inability of the EU to look at designating the upper and lower airspaces for direct flights, how that would impact on fuel usage and having a homogenous air traffic control platform or system. The question I am asking as an Oireachtas Member and maybe as an add-on member to this committee today, is how Oireachtas Members can pressure the EU in this situation. Mr. O'Leary has spoken about vested interests and the political lobbies that do not want that to happen but how can we as legislators push that agenda?

I have one more thing to ask him after that.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Two things come to mind. What can Oireachtas Members do? This committee can apply pressure or ask the Department of Transport why we are not pushing these buttons. Ireland has a disproportionate weight in Europe, particularly when we are having discussions about environmental taxation on aviation. We are a peripheral island and do not have the alternatives which the Dutch, the Belgian, the Germans, and the French have to travel internationally. We are not willing to accept any more of these disproportionate and unfair taxes; in fact, we want the taxes rebalanced in order that all the rich people on long-haul flights or the Dutch people on transfer flights pay their fair share. That is what this committee and this Oireachtas can deliver and then we will deliver the rest.

I will come back briefly to Waterford Airport, since I am on the record on the matter. I have been asked by the new investors will we fly to Waterford and I have said we will. If it has a jet runway and a low-cost base, we will certainly return to Waterford Airport and put a service from London back in. I have a genuine fear and have spoken to some of the private investors and advised them to not invest in Waterford Airport because the viability of the airport will be extremely challenging. With the greatest will in the world, I do not want to see another set of public service obligation, PSO. levies for another set of domestic flights from Waterford to Dublin or something else that will only survive for as long as the taxpayer keeps egregiously subsidising it. We wish Waterford Airport well and we will be very happy to fly there but its viability will be super-challenging.

It will come down to the commercial realities on the ground and we will have to wait and see where all of that goes. There is significant private investment and the taxpayer is not going to be on the hook for major money. As the taxpayer has certainly put major money into other aspects of regional aviation and nothing into Waterford, what is going in there will be a drop in the ocean to be frank.

On the European regulation, Mr. O'Leary stated 20% of fuel will be saved by direct flying and 90% of flight delays will be removed. On the basis that those statistics are correct, has the EU taken them on board? There are considerable implications for carbon reduction at the outset. How can this be pressed at European level?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Those statistics are not even questioned. Everybody accepts the statistics. The reality is that the European Commission is not a robust organisation anymore. The transport Commissioner, a Romanian lady, means well but we are asking her to go up against Mr. Macron and say the Commission is going to break up the French air traffic control union or that of the Germans and remove the power of the unions by blocking their ability to shut down the skies over Europe. They would be free to go on strike but, when doing so, it would be French consumers who would take the hit. Nobody in the Commission wants to challenge the French and German Governments, even if it is in the interest of the overwhelming majority of European citizens and passengers. What we find remarkable is how little traction we have made as an industry on the environmental argument in favour of a single European sky. The environment is number one, two and three; it is a cult in Brussels at the moment, as any members who have been there will know. The environmental argument has had no traction whatsoever. When it comes to the choice between saving the environment and protecting a very small number of very powerful French air traffic controllers, the environment loses.

Mr. Eddie Wilson

There could be a long-term answer to this as well. It is not just about eliminating air traffic control in the countries in question. What is proposed could be done over time. One could run down the number of air traffic controllers as they enter a single system and pay them out until retirement. However, that requires a coherent policy, which we are not willing to apply. As Mr. O'Leary said, only a strengthened and emboldened European Commission could do something like that.

Let me refer to two companies. The first, a large Dublin company owned by a European concern, has been engaged in ethanol production. It has been trying to do blending for several years. The other company is in County Laois. It has a plastics-to-fuel blending business. I was involved with it for several years. I wish it luck. I would like to put the delegates in touch with those involved, having regard to what is being done with Trinity College.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

I am very grateful. The greater the supply of sustainable fuels, the better.

I have listened carefully to the debate. There is a slight contradiction in some of what has been said. It has been stressed repeatedly that for Shannon and Cork airports to grow, they need to be cheaper than Dublin Airport, or at least as cheap. Mr. Wilson said people want to get in and out of airports quickly. There was a marked contrast between Shannon and Dublin airports this summer. Passengers were queueing for hours in Dublin Airport but could get through Shannon Airport in ten minutes. Someone could have a pint, read a poem, do the downward dog or whatever he or she wanted before getting a flight. Does Shannon have to be cheaper in those circumstances?

Mr. O'Leary mentioned his friend from Nenagh who used to fly from Shannon but who now flies from Dublin and about the impact of roads. Roads, however, go in two directions. Even going to Dublin at the best of times, there are traffic jams right up the M7, to the extent that some people have even bought taxi licences to avoid them. Is the hinterland for Shannon growing and getting closer to Dublin, particularly during rush hour, or does it simply not matter to people as they just look at the price and put up with whatever hassle they have to put up with to get a flight for a fiver a less?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

We need to be careful to recall what happened last summer. Dublin Airport was grim in April and May and into June, but it was actually pretty good in July, August and September. With the security, we got there in the end. There is no doubt in my mind that Shannon and Cork were direct beneficiaries last summer. I know families who said they would not go to Dublin Airport for a flight but would go to Shannon. It was very good for both Cork and Shannon. It has helped with their growth. Both are growing at the moment. We are talking to both airports about additional aircraft.

One has to start off with the first principles, however. A total of 60% of the traffic in Dublin is inbound. This is because it wants to go to Dublin. There is no way that can be changed. Of the passengers of the main nationalities, those from the UK all want to come to Dublin. They will travel around. Some of the Italians, Germans and French want to go to the west and they will use Cork and Shannon airports, but you cannot make it as you would wish it to be just by wishing it. If there are more who want to go to Cork and Shannon, we will carry them. The members should not worry about that. We are working closely with Ms Mary Considine and the team in Shannon and with Mr. Niall MacCarthy and the team and Cork in this regard. They have done great work.

I was asked about what the future holds for Cork and Shannon. They must be materially cheaper than Dublin Airport. There is no other way. However, I am pleased both are growing independently of Dublin while the latter is recovering and growing as well. There is growth available for everybody, but Dublin cannot be restricted with people going to Shannon and Cork. If that is done, people will go to Oslo, Vienna or somewhere else.

On accommodation costs, people go to different parts of the country and are affected by costs. A large proportion of the hotel beds in Clare are not available to tourists at present. It has to be a Government priority to provide alternative accommodation for the people who, through no fault of their own, are in those beds now. If that does not happen and there is a shortage of hotel beds, which will drive up the cost of the existing beds, will it affect tourism in the long term?

I have another question. Mr. O'Leary talked a lot about sustainable aviation fuel. Has he any realistic hope for hydrogen? Mr. Elon Musk has said "No" but he says many things.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

There may well be a commercial hydrogen engine available, but we are talking about between 2040 and 2050. There is nothing on the horizon before then. The aircraft we are buying now will be flying from 2028 until 2045. There is no hydrogen technology at present. Rolls-Royce and easyJet did a test on a test cell this week. There will be no hydrogen in the immediate future. Since hydrogen is a flammable gas, there will be challenges. I will certainly not see hydrogen in my career in the aviation business and would probably go so far as to say I will not see it in my lifetime, but the end of that period is probably too far away.

What about accommodation costs?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Accommodation is a huge challenge in Ireland but it is also a huge challenge in the UK and all over Europe. I do not want to get into the housing crisis but would draw attention to the fact that hotel accommodation is under extreme pressure. Many hotels closed during the Covid pandemic. Some of the capacity in Spain and Italy has not come back. There are Ukrainian refugees in accommodation all over Europe. It is a genuine challenge. I do not have an immediate or ready solution for the next year or two. Accommodation and its price will comprise a considerable challenge. Deputy Duncan Smith should be in no doubt that accommodation for our staff in areas such as Swords, Shannon and Cork is also a genuine challenge for us.

Driving Airbnb out of the market is mooted by some as a solution. It might provide more accommodation for Ryanair's staff but less for its customers. Does Mr. O'Leary have any thoughts on that?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

We are not in a position in this country to do so. I would not drive Airbnb out of the marketplace. We need accommodation from all sources. I would encourage the Government to encourage Airbnb as best it can. There are many spare bedrooms in many houses all over the country that could be converted into Airbnb accommodation pretty quickly if we could use the technology. We are short of accommodation.

Our population has risen to 5 million and will be 6 million in the next ten years. Then it will rise to 8 million. None of the solutions we are talking about now, such as fiddling around with the tax system, has ever worked. We need large-scale, high-rise apartment developments, certainly in Dublin, and we need them as soon as possible. Whatever the Government has to do to deliver them, it should do. It should certainly start off by fixing the traffic system around Dublin and ensuring the job of Dublin city managers is not building swimming facilities at Custom House Dock but putting up 40- and 50-storey tower blocks of apartments. Of all the cities I fly to around Europe, Dublin is the only one to which I arrive that does not have them. We are told everyone wants a family home. Large numbers of our employees under 30 do not want a family home. They are not looking for four-bedroom houses with front and back gardens. They want apartments in the centre of town where they can enjoy their leisure time. This fixes the transport issue in the city. The ludicrous system we have whereby we are afraid to go up in Dublin, one of the fastest-growing capital cities in Europe, is absurd. To me, going up is the obvious solution; it is not building more houses in Kildare, Westmeath, or Drogheda.

We have to go up in the centre of this town and we have to do so now. The Government should have a crisis team working on it.

I thank the Chair for allowing me in. I appreciate it. I thank Mr. O'Leary and Mr. Wilson for attending. I compliment them and their company on what they have done to open air travel to our country on the western periphery of Europe, as they outlined. I thank them from a personal perspective for the route they have from Dublin to Košice in Slovakia, given that my wife is originally from there. From a practical perspective, it means that rather than us flying into Bratislava, Rzeszów or Budapest and having a four- or five-hour journey on the other side, we can fly in and are with my wife's family within 30 minutes. That is a practical example of what Ryanair has done to open up connectivity across Europe.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

It does bring the Senator's mother-in-law closer. Not all systems are perfect.

Exactly. I had better not comment or I will get in trouble. I will refer to Waterford Airport. I declare an interest, given that I am a former board member of the airport, from my time on the council. Mr. O'Leary said earlier that he saw difficulties regarding projects, the role of consultants, and no engagement with end users. I understand that Ryanair has been engaged with regard to the proposition at Waterford Airport. That engagement has happened and Mr. O'Leary said he would be willing to operate a flight from Waterford Airport to London, in particular.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

As long as it is low cost, there is no question.

We in the south east would see that as an integral connectivity issue. Having that connectivity to London gives opportunities, notwithstanding what Mr. O'Leary said about the hub and spoke requirements. That direct connectivity to London is of the utmost importance. If that is place, Ryanair will come back home, as we would say, given that it operated its first flight there in 1985. I welcome that and thank Mr. O'Leary for it.

I have questions about some of Ryanair's aircraft and whether it will have challenges. It has 520 aircraft and the number will increase to 670. Mr. O'Leary mentioned that the Boeing 737 MAX has additional seats. From a logistics point of view, the interchangeability of Ryanair's aircraft has been a huge advantage. Does Mr. O'Leary see challenges arising with different types of aircraft, if one has more or less seats than another?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Between our Boeing 737 NG aircraft, which have 189 seats, and the Boeing 737 MAX, which has 197 seats, there is not that much difference. Our average load factor is about 94% or 95%, so if we had to switch in a Boeing 737 NG for a Boeing 737 MAX which goes tech, there might be issues for one or two passengers, but we would re-accommodate them on the next flight. The big challenge for us is the next aircraft order. Do we go up to the Boeing 737 MAX 10, which is a 230-seat aircraft? That would be much more challenging. If we ordered 200 of those aircraft and one went tech, then we would have trouble, but every airline faces those consequences.

Is Ryanair in those negotiations with Boeing?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

We are not at the moment. Sadly, Boeing's pricing is not where we feel it should be, given that it is not selling many aircraft. We remain available to resume those negotiations with Boeing whenever it wants to start talking to us again. Boeing is preoccupied with trying to sort out its own production challenges and to deliver the aircraft that we have already ordered for next year.

I am sure that is a challenge across the whole aviation sector. I have a question about pilots and general aviation crew. Is the pilot shortage across the board still a challenge for Ryanair? Does Ryanair see that affecting Dublin's projections to grow from 38 million to 57 million passengers? It will need significant additional staff. Does Ryanair see that as a challenge? When businesses talk to us, one of the big issues they raise is a staff shortage.

Mr. Eddie Wilson

The real difficulty would be with pilots. We have hired 1,000 cadet pilots this year and we will hire another 1,000 next year. They are well-paid jobs with a multinational workforce. There are 90 places where they can go to work across Europe. There is no difficulty on the pilot side. Being cabin crew is a great entry into tourism and transport. There are the two exceptions that I gave earlier. In the UK, because of Brexit, we cannot get the flow of people that we would have relied on. In Europe, particularly in Dublin, there are issues with accommodation. We kept the core group of people anyway. We did not let anyone go during the crisis.

That was very sensible.

Mr. Eddie Wilson

It got us ahead of the game on everyone else.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

We are investing heavily. We opened a new training centre in Swords during Covid. We have six simulators and eight cabin crew training aircraft there. We will put another one, at a cost of €50 million, in the Spanish peninsula in the next two years, with another in Poland or central or eastern Europe. Pilot unions love to come in here to say that somebody, somewhere, produced a report at some stage that says there will be a worldwide shortage of pilots. There will never be a shortage of people who are paid typically between €150,000 and €200,000 a year and, by law, cannot work more than 900 hours a year, which is about 18 hours a week. There is no fear of a shortage of pilots. They are skilled aviation professionals but they are very well paid. There is a long line of people who wish to join and take on that career challenge.

I thank the witnesses. I welcome the increased frequency of flights to Slovakia.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

We will do our best.

I have a quick question. Mr. O'Leary referred to the practicalities. For Shannon and Cork to become competitive, the charge would have to be materially less than the charge at Dublin. Will Mr. O'Leary flesh that out? If their rates are much lower, how would that affect Ryanair's thinking about adding flights? Would it be able to travel with a lower capacity?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

I do not want to mislead the committee. I have to be careful in some of my commentary. Shannon and Cork airports are already significantly more competitive than Dublin Airport but that is a reasonably new development in both. That is why they have grown strongly this year and why we are putting more aircraft there. They are now more competitive than Dublin Airport and need to continue to be more competitive than Dublin. Environmental taxation, such as the tax of €4.50 per seat, impacts the potential growth at Shannon and Cork airports far more than it impacts the potential growth at Dublin Airport because Dublin has so many other advantages. I do not want to convey an impression that Shannon and Cork have to do more or that they are not competitive. They are very competitive now.

If the ETS tax is reformed and the load is spread to all airlines, what percentage difference does Mr. O'Leary think it will make to Ryanair's growth productions?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

My guesstimate would be that we would bring forward the five-year growth projections to a three-year curve. The growth would be faster in those regional airports. Some of the other islands have asked Ireland to join in but it has not to date. The transport ministries in Portugal, the Canary Islands, the Balearic Islands, Spain, and the Greek islands are looking at finessing some of the environmental taxation so that capital cities might pay a higher share but the Greek islands would pay a lower or no share. Much could be done that would increase competitiveness in Cork and Shannon airports over Dublin Airport.

Mr. O'Leary wants to see serious thinking on this.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

We need to see an aviation policy that really focuses on and worries about the fact that Ireland is an island on the periphery of Europe. The Dutch, Belgians and Germans are proposing many taxes when they have many different ways of travelling internationally.

Point taken.

I do not think we have had a committee as well attended by members and non-members in a long time. I thank Mr. O'Leary for his time. He was asked to go into politics by the former Minister, the late Séamus Brennan, to whom he made many references previously. Back in the early days of Stansted airport, Mr. Brennan was the person who not only ensured Ryanair had a presence there and a bit of breathing space but who also took Shannon Airport away from the control of Dublin Airport. There are people who say that should never have happened. I would like to hear Mr. O'Leary's thoughts on whether the separation of Shannon Airport from the remit of DAA is positive or negative.

My takeaway from this meeting is that the fairness of the emissions system must be considered. We must take on the Minister and the Minister of State with special responsibility for aviation in this regard. In the context of the EU ATC, there is huge scope here to be more environmentally friendly with that delivery.

I would also like to hear Mr. O'Leary's thoughts on competitiveness, at airport and country levels. We know Mr. O'Leary does not want the tunnel under the taxiway. Regarding the biggest new markets for Ireland and Ryanair, something we have not touched on, and just for my information, Mr. O'Leary is CEO of the Buzz, Lauda Europe, Malta Air, Ryanair UK and Ryanair DAC group of companies. Are these aircraft all the same internally and just have a different paint job on the outside? It is an internal operating model really. They all have Ryanair flight codes and planes and are part of the same service. What, then, is the rationale for this separation, other than keeping everybody on their toes? They might all be keeping each other on their toes.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Ultimately, Cork and Shannon Airports, and this is my personal view, would be better off being independently owned and run. Shannon Airport is already independently owned and run. Cork-----

Mr. O'Leary thinks Shannon Airport is better outside of the DAA.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Yes. Until recent years, certainly, Cork Airport being owned by the DAA has been damaging to its growth and ambition, because the same charges were being applied and these were set in Dublin. Dublin did not want to lose traffic to Cork, so the airport there was told it had to charge the same prices, which was mad. Historically, Cork Airport would not necessarily have decided to spend €200 million building a new terminal with the capacity for exactly the same traffic as the old one. I understand, however, that there were passengers in Cork who felt they should have a covered walkway to get to and from aircraft there and that the Government felt this was money well spent. Ultimately, and generally speaking, I think Cork and Shannon Airports would be better off independently. This is not, however, a criticism, and the existing management in Cork and Shannon Airports are doing a great job and they should be encouraged.

I thank Mr. O'Leary.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Turning to the question on why we have separate airline operator certificates, AOCs, this was partly because, originally, we had a tax regime here for flight crews which meant all of them would be taxed here in Ireland. We could not then get unionised across Europe because all the unions wanted all the contracts in their own countries. We had, therefore, to set up separate AOCs. Lauda Europe is slightly different, because it has Airbus aircraft. It is, therefore, almost like a completely different airline. With Malta Air and Buzz in Poland, this was a way of moving cabin crew contracts out of Ireland and Irish taxation as part of our agreements with national unions so they could all have local contracts and taxation in each of those countries. It would not have been possible to do that to an Irish AOC.

My other question was on the new markets.

I think that is enough questions, because we have to be out of here. I call Deputy Ó Murchú.

It was mentioned that there were 150 technology jobs. I think it was called Ryanair Labs. I ask for a bit of detail on this aspect. It looks to be security research. Another point concerns the cadetships mentioned. It is necessary for people to have already been through flight school. I am looking at this in the context of a roadmap for a young person seeking to follow this path. I would like to get some information on these questions.

Mr. Eddie Wilson

We issued a press release today concerning the jobs in Ryanair Labs. We have four centres now. The one here in Dublin now has about 250 people in Airside. We have others in Wrocaw, with about 250 people, and Madrid, with another 200 people. We also have a small centre in Lisbon that we are growing. These centres support the business internally, with people working on everything from supplying iPads to the pilots to new automated tech logs. These are internal processes. Externally, work is done on the day-of-travel app, the website, seat planning, the booking engine and everything within that.

Mr. Eddie Wilson

Yes, security well, in the form of a security operations centre. The great thing about these jobs is that whatever is developed today will be seen on the website tomorrow. People working in American multinationals will be way down the food chain and could be doing something they have never heard of before. In Ryanair, what people work on will go live.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

We are seeing a huge flood of applicants now. For years, we were losing people to the Facebooks and the Twitters and all those other companies. All these people are looking for real jobs now.

My other question was about the cadetships.

Mr. Eddie Wilson

If a young person decides to go to flight school - we partner with flight schools throughout Europe - they do their 200 hours. Some of these could be in Cork with the Atlantic Flight Training Academy. When they have undertaken that process, they come to Ryanair as part of a type rating. They get type rated on the Boeing 737. Within about six months of that, if they successfully pass and go through the mentored programme, they will then get a job as a first officer. Hopefully, with all the growth coming, they will then get one of these jobs that pays €150,000 to €200,000, as a promotion to captain, within about four years after that. Hopefully, as well it will be their home-town.

I call Deputy McNamara. He has one minute.

The relative attractiveness of Limerick and Dublin as weekend destinations was mentioned. Another city, however, that is an attractive weekend destination is Galway. The airport which will get people to and from Galway fastest is Shannon Airport. It is connected by rail and a motorway. Whose job is it to highlight this? Is it that of Shannon Airport, Galway City Council or the airline?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

It is Galway's. If Galway wishes to attract business, then it is up to Galway to attract it. The vast majority of visitors to Galway, and I am an expert on the M4, come to Dublin and drive down that motorway. The connectivity of Galway city to Dublin Airport is phenomenal. It is possible to get to Dublin Airport faster from Galway than to Knock Airport. Now, Shannon Airport-----

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Yes, Shannon-----

If people want to get away for the weekend, spending time on the M4 is an awful waste.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

Shannon is faster, but it is a difficult pull. It is a reasonably difficult sell to persuade people to go to Shannon Airport to spend the weekend in Galway. They generally find it much easier to come to Dublin, do a day's shopping and then go and do whatever it is they wish to do. We are happy, though, to carry people to Galway through Knock, Shannon or Dublin airports. All these options are available to people.

I call Deputy Matt Shanahan. He also has one minute.

I am not a member of this committee, but it would be good if there were to be a revisiting of what has been outlined regarding this ETS and perhaps getting representatives in from the DAA. That organisation will certainly not go for it and it needs to be interrogated. Perhaps Ryanair might give some of the economic research it has done to the committee. It is the same in respect of aviation policy. This committee covers transport issues and it has the best chance of trying to generate reports on this aspect. I also remind the witnesses that we also have the Atlantic Flight Training Academy operating in Waterford airport, as they are aware. I ask them to keep that factor in mind.

Mr. Michael O'Leary

We use it now, in Cork and Waterford.

Quite successfully. I thank Mr. O'Leary.

I thank Mr. Wilson and Mr. O'Leary for coming in today. We will have the Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan, and the Minister of State, Deputy Hildegarde Naughton, in next Wednesday. I ask the witnesses to reflect on today's meeting and to let us know if there are specific further points that they wish us to bring up then. I ask that because we wish to be very direct. Mr. O'Leary and Mr. Wilson have been very informative concerning the aspects of competitiveness, the ETS, the use of the €140 million taken in on what is received, the DAA with the tunnel and then the whole issue of reforming the EUATC.

We want to progress the national aviation policy. Ryanair is critical in this regard. When we were in Schiphol Airport last week, the management there told us that Ryanair had the largest number of flights going through there the day before. Ryanair is, therefore, a serious airline. It is also a major employee. As a committee, we wish to drive aviation policy in a structured way. We will, therefore, raise these issues with the Minister and the Minister of State next week. We are going to produce a report on this area. In fairness, the witnesses have already covered many issues in their submission. If, however, they wish to reflect on and respond to us with specific questions for the members to pose at next week's meeting, we would welcome that. Does Mr. O'Leary have any final comments?

Mr. Michael O'Leary

No, I do not think so. We have set out the five policy points we think the committee should adopt. We certainly encourage the committee to ask the Minister to ask what is happening, how this ETS money is being spent and why it is not being used to produce SAFs. I thank the Chair and the members of the committee.

I thank Mr. O'Leary and Mr. Wilson.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.49 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 7 December 2022.
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