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Joint Committee on Transport and Communications debate -
Wednesday, 5 Jul 2023

Bus Driver Recruitment: Discussion

The purpose of today's meeting is to discuss issues regarding bus driver recruitment with representatives of Bus Éireann, Dublin Bus, Go-Ahead Ireland and the Coach Tourism and Transport Council, CTTC. On behalf of the committee, I welcome from Bus Éireann, Mr. Stephen Kent, chief executive officer, and Ms Jean O'Sullivan, chief people officer; from Dublin Bus, Mr. Billy Hann, chief executive officer, Mr. Ciarán Rogan, chief customer officer, and Mr. Phil Donohue, head of HR and development; from Go-Ahead Ireland, Mr. Andrew Edwards, chief executive officer, and Ms Niamh Swords, operations director; and from the CTTC, Mr. William Martin of Martin's Coaches in Limerick, chairperson, and Mr. Feargal Barton of Barton's Transport in Kildare, a member of the council's executive. Joining us online is Mr. Brendan Crowley, a member of the council's executive and owner and operator of Wexford Bus.

I will read a note on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside of the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member participating via MS Teams to confirm he or she is on the grounds of the Leinster House campus prior to making his or her contribution to the meeting.

It is rare that we have a meeting with so many witnesses so we are almost swamped not just by the witnesses here but those in the Public Gallery. They are all very welcome. Hopefully, we will have a good meeting. The purpose of the meeting is to tease out the blockages, gaps and difficulties faced by the witnesses possibly with the public system and public process of the national driver licence service, NDLS, or the RSA. Is there a way of making it more streamlined in terms of getting more drivers into the system so we can have a better system for all of us? I invite Mr. Stephen Kent from Bus Éireann to make his opening statement.

Mr. Stephen Kent

Bus Éireann is Ireland’s national State-owned bus company. We operate the most extensive and varied public transport network in the country covering the city services of Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford along with town services in Athlone, Balbriggan, Drogheda, Dundalk, Navan and Sligo. With the National Transport Authority, NTA, we will soon be introducing Carlow’s first town service - hopefully, by the end of this month. We also operate regional and rural routes. All these services across almost 230 routes are delivered under contract with the NTA. We also operate a commercial inter-regional coach business, Expressway, which is the largest coach operator in the country. It is not State-subvented. Bus Éireann operates the school transport scheme on behalf of the Department of Education. Many members are very familiar with the vital role this public service plays in homes throughout Ireland as well as its role in reducing greenhouse gas emissions and traffic congestion.

I am delighted to say that public transport in Ireland is transforming. My last engagement with the committee concerned the impact of Covid-19 on the business. I do not think any of us anticipated that within a year of the removal of all public health restrictions, Bus Éireann would be carrying between 20 and 30% more passengers than it did pre-pandemic. We now have more than 155,000 children availing of school transport, a 25% uplift since last year. This is very positive and so encouraging. Not only are we carrying more customers than ever before, a lot of the people we are surveying are more satisfied. We measure customer satisfaction four times a year and in the last four quarters, it has been over 91%.

I say all this because we could not do this without our people. Bus Éireann employs 2,800 people and we expect this to rise to 3,000 by the end of the year. Four in five are customer-facing and we currently have almost 2,100 drivers at 17 bases throughout the country. Our driver numbers are going to rise and we have a significant focus on recruitment to facilitate the expansion of Bus Éireann’s services. This growth is being driven by BusConnects in the regional cities, where we have already seen a lot of dialogue and consultations promising a increase in services of 50% and 75% and the Connecting Ireland regional mobility plan. We have already added more than two million annual kilometres to our network. This did not exist previously.

Key to all of this is attracting the right talent to support our culture of performance and strong customer focus. We are committed to ensuring our employees are rewarded with competitive pay, a pension scheme, essential training and continuous development, career progression opportunities, a national network of facilities, well-being programmes and employee-led social committees. Our vision for Bus Éireann is to be Ireland’s most customer-focused and sustainable transport company with people who believe in it as a great place to work. I am delighted that we have an engagement score of 74% across all employees, which gives a strong indication of how they feel about their employer. We have very low turnover among the driver grade - outside of retirements, we have an attrition rate of 4%. Because of our nationwide spread, Bus Éireann has the advantage of not having to recruit from one geographic area but we are not at all complacent. Our models show we need to attract up to 500 new drivers into the business in the next two years depending on the formalisation of the NTA’s plans.

We currently have 31 driver vacancies across the business but this figure is constantly changing. The important thing is to maintain a strong pipeline of applications. Our Ireland Needs Drivers campaign has been very successful. Last year, we filled 226 driver positions while in the first six months of this year, we have filled 217. We have a strong and collaborative relationship with the RSA and are aware that it is scaling up its resources to meet demand for testing and licensing.

With the very tight labour market, we are of course having to work harder to recruit. We have held 20 open days throughout the country and targeted advertising in key counties. We have put in place a programme to train drivers from B to D licences in Cork, Limerick and Dublin and I am delighted that over 70 trainees joined us through that programme so we are making very good progress.

Being a bus driver is rewarding. We see the difference they make and the important role they play in the lives of our customers every day. Enjoying that engagement with the public is very important. One of the concerns people may have about driving as a career is that there might be a lack of flexibility or they might be working at less family-friendly times but I am glad to say things have evolved. At Bus Éireann, we have positive working relationships with our employees’ representative bodies, the NBRU and SIPTU. We have brought in changed work practices offering much more flexibility and a fair distribution of weekend work by working with our union colleagues. We are even at the point of introducing a four-day week for drivers at certain locations.

We are very proud to have more than 45 nationalities working for Bus Éireann and diversity really matters to us but we are still heavily male dominated in the driver grades with only 4% of our drivers being female. We want to increase this number. We have a number of initiatives to address this including offering different work patterns. For example, we are seeing double the number of female recruits to "weekend only" positions. I know from talking to our employees that our best advertisement for women working at Bus Éireann are the women currently driving for us. They are very giving of their time in encouraging other women to consider a career in bus driving and when you talk to them, you can see how much they really love the job. Increasing female representation will not only benefit our recruitment but also our customers. I hope this sets the context for the committee. It is a very positive story and I am very pleased to be here to engage with the committee on any questions it may have.

I now invite Mr. Feargal Barton to make his opening statement.

Mr. Feargal Barton

On behalf of the members of the Coach Tourism and Transport Council, CTTC, I thank the Cathaoirleach and the committee for providing us with an opportunity to discuss the serious challenges faced by commercial operators in terms of recruitment and retention of staff.

By way of introduction, my name is Feargal Barton of Barton’s Transport in Kildare. I am joined here today by my executive council colleagues CTTC chairperson, William Martin of Martin’s Coaches in Limerick and via video link, Brendan Crowley of Wexford Bus.

As representatives of the commercial bus and coach sector, we are here today to discuss the challenges in the recruitment and retention of staff, particularly drivers, are posing for our industry and the transport system as a whole. Our industry plays a pivotal role in Ireland's economy contributing significantly to tourism, providing school transport and supporting regional growth as well as playing a significant role in transporting workers and the elderly in rural areas not serviced by regular public transport. We connect communities, facilitate travel and ensure the smooth movement of people across the country. However, our ability to fulfill these responsibilities is increasingly hampered by the scarcity of skilled personnel available to us.

Coaches and buses are a lifeline for both domestic and international travellers providing comfortable and sustainable transportation options. However, the demand for qualified drivers far surpasses the available supply leading to operational constraints and compromised service delivery. We need skilled drivers who possess not only the required courses and licences but also the knowledge of navigating our diverse road networks, providing exceptional customer service and ensuring passenger safety. We very much welcomed the provision of 1,500 permits for coach drivers from outside the EU announced following the review of the critical skills list last year. However, it remains to be seen how effective this has been in alleviating the driver shortage to date in the country.

I know we are here to specifically talk about drivers but similarly, the shortage of qualified mechanics poses a significant hurdle for our industry. As the custodians of the coach fleets, mechanics play a crucial role in maintaining the safety and reliability of all of our vehicles. The complexity of modern buses and coaches requires specialised skills and expertise, which are in short supply within our borders. The lack of qualified mechanics not only increases operating costs but can also compromises safety standards leading to longer downtimes for repairs and potential risks to passengers and staff.

For its part, the CTTC has engaged with other stakeholders and will be writing to the Department’s public consultation on the review of the occupational lists in the coming weeks. Similar challenges extend to the recruitment of general and office staff.

The underlying causes of these recruitment challenges are multifaceted. Factors such as red tape, changing demographics, societal perceptions of these professions and a lack of awareness regarding the potential for growth and development within the industry contribute to the scarcity of skilled personnel. Moreover, the impact of Covid-19 and changing work-life patterns have further exacerbated the situation and restricted our access to a wider pool of talent. Also hampering the recruitment of new staff are the many challenges faced by drivers throughout the country, including the lack of facilities for things like comfort stops, as well as the lack of on-street parking and drop-off and pick-up bays at hotels and event venues, particularly in major cities. The stress these issues place on drivers is having a negative impact on the attractiveness of the profession. In order to address these challenges, we urge the committee to consider several key actions.

On driving licences, issues relating to waiting times in some areas for coach and bus driver licences are having a detrimental impact on the recruitment of new drivers. The process of having drivers tested and the necessary paperwork issued is, unfortunately, taking way too long. The current turnaround time from the time an individual decides to become a bus driver to his or her first day delivering services is currently running between 22 and 26 weeks. This compares with six to eight weeks in the UK. This needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency. The CTTC recommends a temporary increase in the availability of tests, perhaps with Saturdays blocked off for bus tests for a number of months until the problem eases. Companies may be willing to contribute to additional costs if necessary. Drivers should be allowed to operate without a certificate of professional competence, CPC, card for three months after the day of the test in order that delays with processing do not delay the roll-out of bus services. The number of testing locations that can facilitate bus driver testing should be increased.

In addition, we propose that further moneys be allocated to programmes and partnerships with education and training boards, ETBs, which we have worked alongside in the past, to help them continue to equip individuals with the skills and qualifications required for driving, as well as investing in apprenticeships for mechanics and general staff positions within the industry. By investing in training and upskilling initiatives, we can develop a pipeline of talent and attract a diverse range of individuals to our profession.

We call on the committee to advocate for initiatives that facilitate the recruitment of skilled personnel from abroad. As stated, this includes opening the visa and work permits process to mechanics from outside the EU and enabling our industry to tap into global talent pools and address the immediate gaps in our workforce.

We recommend the implementation of targeted promotional campaigns to raise awareness of the opportunities and benefits of careers in the coach and bus industry. These campaigns should highlight the industry's potential for growth and its contribution to the economy, as well as the opportunities for professional development and career progression.

Other possible solutions include examining the maximum and minimum ages for undertaking certain services as a driver. Under Bus Éireann rules, for example, a driver over the age of 70 may not transport a busload of children to school. On a private hire run, however, he or she may pick them up to bring them to the local swimming pool. Many coach and bus drivers over the age of 70 have accumulated decades of professional experience and have exemplary safety records. It is important to emphasise that age should not be the sole criterion for evaluating an individual's ability to drive a school bus. The Department could implement regular assessments of drivers' physical and cognitive abilities, regardless of their age, as is the case for private car owners over the age of 70. In that way, we could ensure that all drivers, regardless of age, would meet the necessary requirements to operate school buses safely and stem the tide of retiring drivers. Similarly, the lower age limit is having an impact. The age limit remains at 21 years and, unfortunately, we are losing a large cohort of potential drivers who are leaving school and finding employment elsewhere, such as in haulage. By comparison, the UK recently reduced the age for driving a coach to 19 years, with certain restrictions, including a limit of 50 km travelled. The CTTC has raised this issue with the RSA, which has committed to examining the proposal.

At present, social welfare claimants are assessed on the days per week they work. Such a regime acts as a barrier to employment in the private bus and coach industry. A simple reform in this area would help to ensure recruitment and retention of private bus and coach drivers while boosting revenue for the Exchequer as employers would pay additional PRSI on these employees. The CTTC recommends that future social welfare claimants be assessed on the total cumulative hours worked in a week, rather than on the number of days worked per week. Meaningful social welfare reform will also facilitate private bus and coach operators in hiring staff who may only be required for a limited number of hours per day, such as school bus drivers, for example, without the need for these employees to lose all their State benefits. This would remove a further deterrent to continuing to work in the industry, even on a limited basis.

Part-time drivers, specifically retired drivers who do not wish to work full-time but who receive a State or private pension, currently have no tax-free allowance and as a result pay the top rate of tax on very few hours worked. The CTTC recommends consideration of a mechanism to ensure these drivers pay a reduced rate of tax for the first 20 to 25 hours of work in the week or, alternatively, be allowed tax breaks on extra earnings. Such reforms would greatly assist our industry in the recruitment of drivers for areas such as school transport, which is under severe pressure, as well as relief drivers who do not wish to work long hours but who would like to earn a decent take home pay in the industry.

Addressing the recruitment challenges faced by the coach tourism and transport industry is essential for the sustained growth and prosperity of our sector. The CTTC will continue to advocate for workable solutions such as those I have presented today. By working together, we can ensure the availability of skilled drivers, mechanics and general staff and continue providing safe, reliable and efficient transportation services for the people of Ireland. I thank members for their attention. We look forward to engaging with the committee and answering any questions they may have.

Mr. Billy Hann

I thank the committee for the invitation to appear. I look forward to the discussion. I am joined by Mr. Rogan, chief customer officer, and Mr. Donohue, head of HR and development at Dublin Bus.

At the end of last year, 13 days after becoming chief executive of Dublin Bus, I appeared before the committee and acknowledged the operational challenge posed by a highly competitive labour market and an industry-wide shortage of drivers. I am pleased to return seven months later to update the committee on our substantial progress in boosting driver numbers. My short opening statement will focus on the success of our recruitment campaign and the measures we are taking to meet the demands of an expanding network.

As Dublin continues to grow, more people are converging on the city to live, work and socialise. Fortunately, many people are choosing to leave their cars at home and embrace public transport. As a result, Dublin Bus has experienced a surge in customer demand that has surpassed pre-pandemic levels. This year, we anticipate surpassing the remarkable milestone of 140 million passengers achieved in 2019. This equates to approximately 2.7 million journeys each week, with a weekday average of 434,000 passengers.

This increase in passenger numbers, compounded by a highly competitive labour market, posed a challenge for us. In response, Dublin Bus implemented the biggest recruitment drive in the history of our organisation. In 2022, we recruited and trained 319 drivers. In the first half of 2023, we recruited and trained 200 drivers and received more than 1,500 prospective driver applications after ramping up our campaign. By the end of the year, we estimate that Dublin Bus will have successfully recruited and trained more than 400 bus drivers. To achieve this ambitious target, we took significant steps to enhance the capacity of our training centre in May 2023, enabling us to accommodate 12 new trainees entering the programme and 12 new drivers graduating weekly. The success of our recruitment campaign and the impact it will have on our service cannot be understated.

Our team developed a creative and memorable campaign which has prominently featured on the sides of our buses. Our "We Are Hiring" scrolls are now synonymous with the sight of the yellow double-deckers on the streets and roads of Dublin, as are the on-board announcements played for customers. Our on-board marketing is bolstered by a multifaceted campaign across traditional and social media. Now that we have the privilege to meet each other in person again, we have focused on taking the recruitment drive on the road, showcasing careers at recruitment days, events and roadshows throughout the greater Dublin area.

We are immensely proud of the work done so far but we recognise and acknowledge there is more hard work ahead of us. Although we are close to reaching our current targets, the full implementation of future phases of the BusConnects network redesign project will require continued recruitment and training. We are already putting measures in place to relieve future pressures. Such measures include our longer-time working policy, which was introduced in March of this year and allows for employees to work until their 70th birthday.

We are facing challenges but our commitment to providing safe, high-quality and sustainable public transport services to the people of the greater Dublin area is paramount to everything we do. Driven by an ethos that every journey matters, Dublin Bus recognises the need to not only meet, but exceed the expectations of our customers. This includes offering fulfilling, life-long and secure job opportunities to our team of drivers. Last month, I had the opportunity to celebrate 50 years of service with one of our drivers and his family at our Donnybrook depot. Terry arrived at Dublin Bus shortly after his 15th birthday as a messenger in 1973 and, through the past five decades, he has proudly served countless customers and communities across the greater Dublin area. This is the story of Dublin Bus and the drivers who serve us. While the challenges of today will not disappear overnight, I assure the committee that Dublin Bus will continue to move forward, overcoming these challenges as we always do. I look forward to discussing this with members in further detail and answering any questions they may have.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Good afternoon. I am the managing director of Go-Ahead Ireland. I am joined by my colleague Ms Niamh Swords, who is director of operations. We thank the committee for the invitation to today’s session.

Go-Ahead Ireland has been contracted by the National Transport Authority since 2018 to operate a total of 30 routes: 25 outer Dublin metropolitan area routes operating from our Ballymount depot, and five Dublin commuter services operating from our Naas depot. We are a team of more than 750 people employed across Dublin and Leinster, and we are proud partners of local charitable and community organisations.

In our appearance here today, we understand there are areas the committee would like to discuss with us, including driver recruitment. We will begin by reporting that we remain in a good position in recruiting new employees with regular applications and new starters to the organisation. We have a nearly full complement of bus drivers with 506 out on routes. We are in the process of training 103 drivers in our driver training school right now for future growth, ensuring that when a driver leaves, he or she is replaced immediately. We have 94 people who have been offered a job with us after going through our interview process and are waiting to start. We are thankful for the support of the Government in promoting public transport as a positive place to work in the past year, which has certainly assisted all bus operators in Ireland with attracting and recruiting more people into our industry.

As discussed last month with several committee members on a tour of our Ballymount depot, despite the improvements in driver training and recruitment, we still experience challenges concerning the time it takes from interviewing and hiring potential drivers to seeing those drivers hit the road and begin serving their communities. There are three primary factors that delay drivers getting on the road. Firstly, public transport operators are given a block booking of theory tests each week by the Road Safety Authority, RSA. As a result, we have been working four to six weeks in advance of booking tests, meaning that if a prospective driver is offered a job today, the theory test could only be booked in four weeks’ time. Locally managed theory testing by the operators would be one way to ease the pressure on both the company and the RSA for the number of tests required.

The second issue concerns practical driver testing. The RSA have been very accommodating in providing us with block bookings of driver tests scheduled for three weeks from a given date, though more are still needed. Those who fail the test cannot immediately retest. They must go to the back of the queue and are given another test in three weeks’ time. Additionally, slots cannot be swapped as they are assigned to an individual and not the company. Delegated examiners could be employed by the operators and overseen by the Government to allow for further tests to be given without delay, while maintaining the exceptionally high standards already in place.

A third issue is that once a driver has passed his or her test and completed the EU required certificate of professional competence, CPC, the licence and then the CPC card is applied for. Drivers cannot drive in service until they have the physical documents on them, which while processed quickly, can take a long time to come back to the drivers. Drivers could be able to drive once proof of application and processing has been done.

It should be noted that we enjoy a positive relationship with the RSA and we really value its work. The RSA has recently engaged with PSO bus operators to confirm their full support within the remit of the organisation and has committed to providing further support where it can regarding theory tests, CPC cards and driving tests. We very much appreciate the RSA's understanding and commitment to working with us to mitigate the issues we have faced. The RSA will revert back to us in the near future with additional guidance and improvements to address the challenges further.

We understand that the issues outlined are not the fault of any organisation as there are real societal pressures on all sectors and organisations post pandemic. We believe, however, that practical solutions are possible, in particular where we see the same process done differently in other jurisdictions that Go-Ahead Ireland operates in around the world, on which I would be happy to speak further this afternoon. We are grateful for the opportunity to speak with the committee members this afternoon about how future policy might be informed to meet the needs of public transport operators and the communities we are all proud to serve.

I thank Mr. Edwards. Senator Timmy Dooley is in the next committee room discussing something far less important than this and I will be taking his speaking slot. I will take a few minutes and then I will bring in Senator Doherty and Deputies Smith and O'Rourke and so on.

A lot of this has been in the ether for a while from all of the operators. I have met with various representatives from different organisations over time. The meetings probably came about, to be fair, from the Go-Ahead Ireland meeting which showed us just how long the timelines are. Mr. Edwards addressed this in his opening statement, and obviously it applies to all operators. At the moment we are talking about four weeks. If Go-Ahead Ireland hires someone, it is four weeks, at best, before the company can get the person the theory test. If the person passes that theory test it is about three to four weeks before Go-Ahead Ireland can then get them onto a real, practical test.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Yes.

If the person fails that test, it is then another three weeks before the company can get a retest. After that, Mr. Edwards mentioned previously that even after a driver passes this it can take five weeks to get the bit of plastic for the CPC. Is that correct?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

It is between three to five weeks.

In theory, if there were no blockages in the system, Go-Ahead Ireland could take somebody on, they could do the theory test immediately, subject to knowing the stuff already, and Go-Ahead Ireland could get the test that week and the CPC card. Reference was made to allowing drivers to operate for a certain window without the actual piece of plastic. There is no value in the piece of plastic other than as a piece of plastic: the person has passed his or her test and is just waiting for the bureaucracy to catch up with proving that the person has passed his or her test. We accept there will always be blockages and there has to be a process and queues, but if there are no blockages one could take a person on today, he or she could do the theory test tonight, do the driving test tomorrow, and be on the road on Friday.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Not quite because we need to get-----

One needs to do training.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

We need to train them to drive the bus first. That is about 25 hours to 30 hours of driving. That could be two weeks to three weeks.

Could that be done while the driver is waiting or before the theory test is passed?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

No. The driver must do the theory test first.

And he or she must pass that.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Yes. The person must pass the theory test.

There is already a four-week window of taking somebody on, putting them on the payroll, and they are waiting four weeks to do a theory test. They are not productive.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Just to be clear, I must clarify that when a person applies for the job and we do the theory test, we fund the theory test for them but they are still in their current employment with a different organisation while waiting to do the theory test.

That is assuming the person has employment previously.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Yes.

But if the person does not, is it the case that Go-Ahead Ireland does not put the person on the payroll until he or she has passed the theory test?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

When the person has passed the theory test we then apply for the licence. The person cannot start learning until the learner permit arrives in their hand. Once the licence permit arrives, we can start.

In the case of a person who has done his or her leaving certificate and is interested in becoming a bus driver and does not have a job, if they apply to Go-Ahead Ireland today to get a job, what happens?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

The leaving certificate student may be 18 years of age, but he or she would need to be 21 years old to drive for us.

What if it was a 21-year-old who is not in employment and has been to college at third level to do a diploma in something?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

If the person is 21 years of age or above and has applied for the job, we would try to interview them within 24 hours or within a week of application they would have an interview. We would then offer them a job and would give them a slot for the theory test. That could be within two to four weeks. We would normally work four weeks ahead because of the amount of slots we would use.

People are not on the payroll until then.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

They are not on the payroll at that point. When they pass their theory test we then assist them in applying for their learner permit and we fund that for them.

Is that when the 20 hours to 30 hours of training comes in?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Not yet. Once the learner permit has been applied for, we wait for that to come back. Once we know this is coming back, we can then give the drivers a start date.

I am sorry to ask but I am trying to get a handle on just how complicated it is. If Go-Ahead Ireland interviews the person today and is happy to take him or her on, it is then somewhere between two to four weeks before the person gets a theory test, and nothing else can happen until the person passes the theory test.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

No. That is right.

Then the person must wait for a learner permit.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

They would have applied for the learner permit and they wait for that.

How long does that take?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

It could be seven days or it could be three weeks.

Okay, that is seven days to three weeks just to get the learner permit. There is no driver getting in the cab and no practising can happen until he or she gets the learner permit.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Once the driver gets the learner permit, he or she can start.

Is that when the driver can do the 20 to 30 hours driver training?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Yes.

The minute that the driver receives the learner permit, can Go-Ahead Ireland then apply for the test for the driver?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Yes.

And this is another three to six weeks.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

We were working on five weeks but now, after some great engagement with the RSA we are now down to three weeks.

That is good and an improvement, but even at that it is still three weeks.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Yes.

They passed their test.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Yes.

That will have been their first test.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Yes.

Go-Ahead Ireland is still waiting approximately five weeks for the CPC card.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

We apply for the driving licence. Then, approximately 24 to 48 hours later, once we know the driving licence is on the system, we apply for the CPC card. The application for the CPC card is sent away and we have to wait for it to be returned.

How long does that take?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

That can take from three to five weeks.

It is therefore fair to say that it takes the guts of ten weeks. If that time could be shaved off, people could get into the system the guts of ten weeks faster than they are now. They are being paid for some of that time but not all of it. The system is missing out on people who could be driving five weeks earlier because the CPC is taking five weeks.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

That is correct.

If they were able to get their test earlier, they could be on the road earlier. They could have been qualified to drive much quicker. Is that fair to say?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

That is correct, yes.

That topic has taken up nearly all of my five minutes.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Sorry. That is my fault.

No, it is fine. I wanted to come in first because that is the crux of the matter. The NTA, to a greater or lesser extent, funds operations, although not so much in the case of Go-Ahead Ireland. The State funds Bus Éireann and other companies. On one side, the NTA is trying to get more drivers, while, on the other side, the RSA, through the NDLS, is not making it as easy as it could be or we would like it to be. The Department of Transport is frustrating this or making it more difficult to get drivers on the road, while another part of the system is trying to get them on the road faster. We all want more active travel, fewer emissions and fewer people using their cars, better services, BusConnects and so on.

In my next intervention, I may address the issue of night buses because there is a shortage of taxis and we need more people to use buses, where possible.

I thank all the witnesses for appearing and preparing such comprehensive opening statements which highlight that one arm of the State is trying to do this, while another arm of the State is making it more difficult than it needs to be. I accept that all the witnesses acknowledge that the RSA and NDLS are doing their best, but they are under strain as well. I think that is a fair point.

I am glad the Leas-Chathaoirleach spoke first because he teased out the main reason we are here today. It is obvious where we need to focus our attention. I ask the Leas-Chathaoirleach to indulge me because some of the questions I want to ask are a little parochial.

I thank Mr. Edwards and Ms Swords for their responsiveness to any queries my office has put to them. It is obvious that they want to build good customer service, as others who have been here for longer than them have done. I acknowledge that and thank them.

I submitted a query recently with regard to a no-show and Mr. Edwards got back to me with the reason, which was that the driver skipped some 30 km of the route because of delays. How frequently is that an issue? How often are routes cut short in order that a bus driver can catch up to be on time for the remainder of the journey? What are the reasons that happens?

Balbriggan is probably the fastest growing town in the country. A whole swathe of north and north-west Balbriggan is not serviced by a bus. Is there a plan to address that? Do the bus companies need to wait for directions from some other body indicating that this need has arisen? How quickly can something like that happen?

The 33A service goes through Lusk and Rusk. We are trying to get more people in those towns to use the train. I am told that only one bus connects those towns to the train station in time to catch particular trains. Can the issue of connecting routes be addressed? If that does not work with Go-Ahead Ireland’s route, we may need to ask Local Link to provide a specific service for those people.

My next questions are for Mr. Hann. I congratulate Terry Clinton because working in one company for 50 years just does not happen any longer. It is absolutely incredible, so well done.

I have a question regarding a story in the newspaper this morning or yesterday that a large number of electric buses are being held up because the electric chargers and infrastructure are not available. What factors contributed to the delay in delivering that infrastructure? Was it just down to the company or were there other factors that led to the delay?

I have a general question related to another issue the Leas-Chathaoirleach raised. It has been reported that BusConnects will increase the bus service’s carbon footprint, as opposed to decreasing it. While I know the service will be extended and there will be new routes and other good stuff, if we are doing something that will increase our footprint, it seems counterintuitive.

While we genuinely brought the representatives before the committee to discuss bus driver recruitment, once they are in the room, they generally considered to be fair game. I will protect them from the worst effects of our members. The Senator's contribution was fairly reasonable. Does anybody want to respond first to Senator Doherty?

Maybe Mr. Edwards can respond first, and then Mr. Hann.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

I thank the Senator. I thank her very much for her kind comments. We are working very hard with many public representatives and the many communities we serve. To answer her question about the no-show, I remember that case because I responded directly to Senator Doherty’s office on it. Unfortunately, there was some traffic in the area, which meant the bus was extremely late. In order to continue with our service so that it did not impact many hours, we curtailed the service at that time.

It all depends. Since coming out of the pandemic, we have all seen that traffic patterns have changed significantly. I remember when I moved to Dublin in October 2020, I did not think there was ever any traffic because it was so quiet at that time. Looking at our data from before we went into the pandemic, there were traditional peaks of 7.30 a.m. to approximately 9.30 a.m. and then at around 4 o’clock in the afternoon. We had a feel for what each day was like. I can speak from personal experience as I regularly take public transport. I use Dublin Bus frequently from where I live. We have seen traffic patterns change dramatically in the past year. They have become more erratic and there are new patterns. For example, Wednesday morning has become the new Friday morning, while Friday morning has become the new Sunday morning because it is so much quieter on a Friday than it is on a Wednesday. Pockets of congestion arise very quickly, and this can cause delays. With the BusConnects network redesign coming and all the work the Government is doing to create more bus priority, we will see improvements in reliability. Traffic congestion is growing and travel is certainly getting harder. On an average week, we probably lose up to 1% of our service kilometres through congestion. That means that if a bus is running extremely late, we will have to intervene to either protect the driver, who can legally only drive for a certain number of hours every day, or to ensure we offer the best service possible for the highest number of customers.

Delays can happen for all kinds of reasons. Sometimes we will see a pocket of congestion for a short period of time, and then it disperses. Sometimes there is just no rhyme or reason, and other times there are patterns. We look at the data and we are constantly reviewing our schedules. When we make changes we do so to reflect what we are seeing but we cannot get it right all the time, as much as we would love to do so. Sometimes, when we get it right it then changes.

On Balbriggan-----

Mr. Edwards was telling us that was the first Go-Ahead service in the Dublin network.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Yes.

We remember these things. Logistically, it is the furthest place from the company's depot------

Mr. Andrew Edwards

It is.

-----so if something goes wrong there, it is just a bigger problem.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Yes. Balbriggan is 40 km from our Ballymount depot. We have an out-station at the airport which we use it to service that area. Will the Senator clarify her question on Balbriggan?

North and north-west Balbriggan do not have any bus routes.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Yes.

In Taylor Hill, for example, a lovely estate that is probably four or five years old, people have to do their own thing. It may be a first world problem to have to walk for 15 minutes to get a bus but the idea is to have a bus stop within five minutes. There is just no service in the north of Balbriggan.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

We operate on behalf of the NTA. Our role is to run a punctual and reliable service for the authority. It sets the network and where the routes go. I do not have information on this with me. I am not sure about this because some changes will be coming with BusConnects in later phases. It may be, however, that in a few years’ time some areas will pick up some of that.

I can take that away and feed it back if there is anything.

I have read the opening statements and my questions are largely for Bus Éireann, if that is okay. I do not represent Dublin. I am in County Clare, so my interest is generally transport in Limerick and Clare but also national transport. Are there any routes at the moment that Bus Éireann cannot fulfil or routes that it has agreed with the NTA that it cannot introduce or where it cannot provide a service because of a lack of drivers?

Mr. Stephen Kent

We are planning for Limerick city. As Deputy Crowe is aware, the consultation is out for BusConnects for Limerick city. Once we know where all of those are going to land, we will get ready. There is no doubt about it, at the minute, Limerick is a very tight market for drivers. We have commented on that before. I am here with Ms Jean O'Sullivan, who is our chief people officer. She is out driving the recruitment campaigns. At the moment we are not entirely limited. At this particular point what happens is that in the business, we tend to try to work through what we call summer annual leave. We are in that period. We take a number of drivers in to work on part-time shifts and all of that. Anybody we take in, by and large at the moment, is coming in on a longer-term basis, so we are going to be ready for Limerick. There is some short-term need on the 343 service that is currently going between Shannon and Ennis-----

Does Bus Éireann have plans to address that, given that it is quite a congested route?

Mr. Stephen Kent

In the short term there has been a massive passage of growth in that particular route. In fact, it has grown by 60%. We did not foresee that. That is phenomenal growth. We have tried to answer that in the short term by putting in higher-capacity vehicles, but it is gearing up and the NTA has nominated for additional frequency in its Connecting Ireland upgrade. Based on our discussions, it is possible that it will go from an hourly service to a half-hourly service, but that is really for the NTA to decide. I would expect it, potentially, to come in in the autumn and, if it comes in, we will be ready for that.

That is good to know. Could I just ask more generally on a nationwide basis, approximately how many Bus Éireann vehicles are contracted to the Department of Education to fulfil school runs in the mornings and afternoons? Is there an approximate figure?

Mr. Stephen Kent

About 6,500.

I have had chats with the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, on this. It is not such a big deal in a city environment, but in a rural area it is fantastic to see a Bus Éireann coach pull up and drop off 50 children at a school, but it is devastating to see the coach leave the rural area and return empty to the depot. I do not know if it is feasible, but I have been asking the Minister, Deputy Foley, whether, the minute it fulfils its drop-off, as it is still in contract and it goes back to the Bus Éireann depot, the coach can become a rural bus service on the way back in. My local area has no bus service and it would mean there would be a 9.20 a.m. pick-up for someone elderly who might want to get into town, who could be dropped back again around 2.50 p.m.. In an era of sustainability and everyone trying to put their best foot forward, it makes very little sense that a bus goes fully loaded to the school gate but leaves it empty. Has there been any talk about having some joined-up thinking here so that the bus could fulfil another duty as it pulls away from the school gate?

Mr. Stephen Kent

My personal view is that there are definitely possibilities for further integration. There are some talks going on in that regard, but it is not without caveats or criteria. There are issues that have to be addressed. This is what it comes back to. What does it mean if it was doing the school bus run and coming back? There would be issues to be addressed in terms of whether the driver is vetted, because it is for the school bus run not for a regular service? How would the ticketing be integrated? The Department of Education issues one ticket. How would we pick up the road passenger ticket? These issues are not insurmountable, but these are the things that we are trying to figure out in terms of the practicalities. Equally, when the NTA prescribes a service, typically, we want all of the services to be accessible, which they are; ideally a low-floor vehicle. They are things that have been gradually introduced. Even in Deputy Crowe's region, he will see types of vehicles that have been addressing that. There are things that will have to be addressed in terms of vehicle type, the driver, the ticketing that we would have to have and then there is some regulation attached to it because the school run is different to what may be prescribed for an operation by the NTA.

If Deputy Crowe can believe it, we used to do it years ago. Prior to 2009, Bus Éireann used to integrate a lot more services. We know it is possible. We are operating into two bodies. Those chats are now starting to happen. We see it with the level of demand that we are having. If we are going to meet the demand, we have to figure out how we are going to optimise and maximise the available resources. There are definitely opportunities. Connecting Ireland will provide some of that.

That is positive. There is a bit of political work going on, but what Mr. Kent has said is quite positive. If Bus Éireann could be as engaging as that with the Departments of Transport and Education it would be great because it is kind of sinful to see this perfect vehicle going 20 minutes back into town with nobody on it and plenty of people in the community who would love to be on the bus. Not every community demands a half-hourly bus service. Knowing that they can go in in the morning and come home in the afternoon is plenty for a lot of rural communities. It is more than they have ever dreamt of, so it would be great to see that.

I have another question to ask of the witnesses from Bus Éireann. The TFI timetabling app got overhauled a few months ago. A lot of people stand at bus stops and they have Google Maps open and then they flick over to TFI. There are discrepancies. I think Mr. Kent said before that there is data sharing and the two sets of information overlap, but there seems to be a lot of inaccuracies. Not every bus stop has the real-time information for passengers on when the bus arrives. If people use a bus every day, they kind of know when it is going to arrive, but the sporadic user cannot figure it out. Could Mr. Kent tell us if there are improvements happening on that front?

We have had that discussion before. Not only is the information inaccurate but we get three different versions of it. The TFI app says one thing. The Dublin Bus app says something else, and then the screen at the bus stop will say something else. At least it could be consistently wrong. Then the bus would not turn up at all.

Mr. Stephen Kent

I can only take it away for members. At the moment it is a TFI app and we have our own Bus Éireann real-time information. The data are taking a number of different feeds off the vehicle. At the moment, there may be operational issues or an issue at a bus stop. I am happy to engage and bring it back to the NTA, but it operates that particular app so I cannot really answer for it, other than to say that there is a huge amount of work going in to try to get data integrity and all the sharing to try and inform it. By and large, I believe that app has been quite successful since its launch, but there are always teething issues with everything. I am happy to take it away, but I do not know the specific issue in this instance.

My last question-----

Deputy Crowe is stretching it now, but he should go on.

I will be very quick, Chair. This question is for Mr. Martin from the CTTC, who gets the mid-west because he is a Limerick man. There are a lot of coach operators on the tourism route. This is more of a criticism of the NTA rather than of his members. The latest thing, certainly in the west, is that people board a coach on Aston Quay or Burgh Quay in Dublin and they come all the way down. The iconic sites like the Cliffs or Moher and Bunratty are now photo stops. People pull up at the side of the road and take a photo, they get their lunch in Kinvara in Galway and they go back for their dinner in Dublin. It is lovely for tourists. They pass beautiful fields of sheep and they take a photo of the Cliffs of Moher and they are gone again. These kinds of services are damn all use to us in a tourism county. It is no criticism of Mr. Martin's members. He represents them very well over many years. What I do ask is that if they are given an NTA route, they stick to it because some of them go further to get more photo opportunities. A photo opportunity might be good for Instagram but it does nothing for the tourism industry. All I ask is that members continue to come to all of the counties in the west but that they make worthwhile visits, like they always did in the past.

I genuinely thank all the witnesses for coming today and for their opening statements, as well as the various visits that have been organised, sometimes through the committee and sometimes outside of it.

We had an awful lot of meetings last year which were based on operational crises, but we have reached a space now where we need to collate the recommendations and come up with a view on where the committee stands on the issues that were presented to us. We have to do that out of respect to the witnesses who have come multiple times to see us and in particular for the statements and submissions they have given today.

I will run through a few questions and then I will leave it to the witnesses to answer. My first question is to Mr. Barton and Mr. Martin. An issue has been raised with me locally, which relates to one of their recommendations, about over-70s being unable to do school transport. Do they have any idea of how many drivers they are losing in that regard? Has there been ongoing political campaigning or discussion or is it a dead issue, as it were, that has fallen flat?

I will run through all of my questions and the witnesses can come back in afterwards. What impact are the cost of living, inflation and housing costs having on retaining and attracting staff? None of the organisations here are low-pay employers; they are good employers that are paying good wages. What kind of threats outside their industries are taking staff away from them?

On the shortage of mechanics, we have traditional diesel-powered buses but Dublin Bus is moving to hydrogen buses, some of which I have seen on the streets. Does that require a specific set of mechanic skills for which there is an even more desperate lack of supply when compared with the traditional mechanic skills we would have for the traditional bus? Is there just one big shortage or is there a double stream of shortages?

There are major issues with disability access and toilet services on bus services. Toilet services used to be provide on long-distance routes. I have heard from Deputies in my party who travel long distances, maybe for hospital appointments, that they feel they are unable to use Bus Éireann because of that issue. It is not so much an issue with Dublin Bus because of the short journeys. Disability access is available on Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead Ireland services but there are bigger wheelchairs that cannot access the buses. I have spoken about this before. For some reason, there is no access to coach services.

One of the opening statements, maybe from Bus Éireann, described the societal view of the job being an impact. The job of being a bus driver and driving a coach would traditionally be aspirational and something that people would want to do from when they were young. We heard the story of Terry who has been working in Dublin Bus for 50 years. A Dublin bus driver called Walter Bruce on Twitter gives a wonderful insight to the job of transporting people. It is a warts and all account but it comes from a positive place. I know that is not something that can be organised through each company and that it is a natural thing that an individual worker is doing, but it gives an unbelievable insight to how valuable and important the job is. If that kind of experience were to be projected out there a little more, it might tackle the message being put forward when it comes to negative societal aspects on the job. I have talked down my time. I ask for some responses on those points.

Mr. Billy Hann

I thank the Deputy for his questions. I will make a point on the cost of living and whether it is an impediment to encouraging people to join Dublin Bus. In November 2022, we had 75 applicants on our system to become bus drivers. In around April of this year, we got that figure up to nearly 1,500 applicants, which was strong after the campaign we had. Therefore, it is not necessarily a large impediment. We are losing some staff, however, as are other organisations. In some of the exit interviews, workers will cite the cost of living in Dublin as being a problem for them. Some have moved down the country to work somewhere else where the cost of living may be a little bit cheaper. It is not a significant issue for us but it is a problem.

The issue of mechanics is a problem. There are no mechanics to be got out there. I have opinions on that, which I will not go into, but we have lost a generation of tradespeople in this country for various reasons that we do not have time to talk about.

Please share, Mr. Hann. We would be interested to know the reasons.

Mr. Billy Hann

We have a generation of people who are doing degrees, including my generation. Whereas traditionally, we would have had a number of people doing degrees and a number of doing trades, we have fewer people doing trades and more people doing degree programmes now. We have lost a generation of tradespeople as a result.

In certain countries like Germany, becoming a mechanic or going into car manufacturing is seen as really good but the focus sometimes is to get everyone to go to a university or a technological university. While there are good jobs in trades - building, carpentry, plumbing, electrician and so on - people are almost being led down the path of having to go to university. Mr. Hann's point is that we are not getting people who would probably have a great aptitude for becoming a mechanic or would be good at the job but are just not considering it.

Mr. Billy Hann

I fully concur with that. There is room for both the degree programme and the apprenticeship scheme. Until recently, we did not have the apprenticeship scheme mentioned on CEO forms and so on. We are making progress from that point of view. It has led to a shortage of mechanics and tradespeople across various different sectors. As such, we are finding it hard to replace mechanics, so much so that we are having to look internationally to try to address the concerns in that area.

From a disability point of view, Dublin Bus has a 100%-accessible fleet and we are very proud of that. We have our assisted travel programme as well, which we are also proud of. It works hard with people with mobility issues to try to make sure we can address their needs.

On Walter Bruce, in Dublin Bus we put a lot of effort into the social media side of things, particularly on Twitter and LinkedIn, and we try to highlight the experiences of our bus drivers and other workers to get a positive image out there and encourage people to apply to the organisation. We have found that quite successful to date. I hope I have answered the Deputy's questions.

Could I get a response to the point on the over-70s?

Mr. Feargal Barton

We have engaged regularly with the Department of Education in recent years, especially since the return after Covid because extra services were required during that period. I do not have an exact figure but if we assume that each of the thousands of companies around Ireland providing school transport is probably losing one or two drivers per year, we can get an idea of how many people we are losing from the system. Bus Éireann would possibly be able to tell the Deputy the exact number because it sends out the letters to remind drivers that as they are 70 years old, they are no longer capable of driving a school bus with school children on it but that they are capable of driving to the Continent. There probably is an exact figure.

We have lobbied the Minister and various Deputies on the school transport system, and I am sure members of the public have done so as well. It is a niche system in which people only work 15 to 20 hours per week. Someone aged 25, 35 or 45 and raising a family cannot survive on those hours. For people in their 50s or 60s who are retired and do not want to work on a full-time basis but want to continue in the employment market, it is a nice area to work in. We find that a lot of people who have left their standard 9 a.m. to 5 p.m., Monday to Friday job come into us in their late 60s, and there are not too many other professions in which people can walk in the door and be welcomed at 60 years of age or more. We have lobbied hard to have a mechanism put in place so that drivers can extend their driving for one, two or three years, or whatever that may be. We have asked for reports and safety reports to show us why Bus Éireann believes this would not be suitable. As we heard earlier, 155,000 students are being transported to and from schools so there is a requirement for more drivers. It seems a shame to lose guys who have been working for ten, 20 or 30 years in that profession because of an age limit. We have worked hard on that behind the scenes but, unfortunately, we have not had any success to date.

I know it is not Bus Éireann's fault and the company is just implementing the regulation from the Department. Does Mr. Kent want to comment on the number of drivers Bus Éireann is losing out of the system every year as they approach 70?

Mr. Stephen Kent

It is a policy we have that we are trying to do-----

Is it Bus Éireann's policy or the Department's policy?

Mr. Stephen Kent

It is a Bus Éireann policy that we are doing in the interests of safety, foremost. It is around risk mitigation; it is as simple as that. It is nothing more than having safety at the core of what we think is a great judgment. It is a judgment between trying to figure out how to deliver what might be a short-term request or need for more resources versus the longer-term horizon. We used the phrase "students" but I deliberately use the phrase "children" because the task we are charged with is making sure that everybody is delivered safely to school and we try to do that in the best way possible. Every contract we bring in and everybody who would be engaged in a contract knows in advance that 70 years is the maximum age we are trying to operate to under the scheme. That means that people coming up to 70 years know they have to plan for it. We have extended the age in the company as drivers used to retire at 66. They have an opportunity to work to 70 now but fewer than five do.

Mr. Stephen Kent

Fewer than five people are availing of that opportunity so it is a very low percentage. I do not believe even 1% of bus drivers step forward to do it. There is greater merit in trying to attract young and new drivers into the system.

There is this curve that comes in all the time from new drivers, unfortunately. When they come in, we tend to see a collision rate increase that eases with experience and, unfortunately, it can go back up on the other side in the schemes and what we have done. We are simply trying to take the balance of risk and the operation, ultimately, always on the side of the children to ensure the carriage is as safe as possible. That is really our position. We have seen nothing to change our position in that regard.

In terms of anything we have done in the short term, where there has been any disruption to service in the short term when a driver has decided to come out of it, we have filled each of those positions. We have always filled them. It is not wrong to say there will be challenges - they will be there - but there are equally charges by then deciding whether it is 71 or 72 or if we are happy it is a minibus or whether it is a 96-seater. There are a huge number of practicalities and what we do is deliver the scheme as safely as possible on behalf of the kids.

We are all conscious that when accidents happen, everyone looks at everything and asks "Why?" Therefore, we know and we all understand. First of all, I should have said at the start that we, as a committee and a public, appreciate the work all the organisations do in the various operational environments in which they work, both in tourism and rural areas but equally in Dublin in very built-up, congested areas and often in areas where there is sometimes a level of antisocial behaviour and difficulty. I presume it can be quite a lonely job driving a bus late at night on a rural road or wherever and equally in an urban area. Therefore, it is important to say that we appreciate all the work that has been done right across the system.

In terms of me asking that question, it is important to have that aired given what we went through with school transport last year.

The reason we are here is the difficulty in recruiting drivers. I absolutely understand the safety side of things. When we are losing drivers, however, and we have people who are, as Mr. Barton said-----

Schools can hire a private bus for a swimming pool but they cannot-----

They have only just come in to do this in the last five or six years and maybe set up a little business to be able to pay their mortgages off and all the rest. They only just started this in their mid-60s, however, so they have had a short time and they are being cut off.

It is perhaps something Mr. Kent might keep under review. Maybe he wants to say it is about getting younger people in, and I get all that. Equally, we would all be aware of schools that are hiring. As Mr. Barton said, a school might come along and hire him or somebody else to bring 50 children to the local swimming pool or the local rugby or soccer match.

We are all familiar with schools using coaches and, indeed, the organisations present for other operational transport. Not the school bus scheme, though. I was under the impression that it was a Department of Education school bus scheme issue for people being 70 years of age, not Bus Éireann's rule.

Mr. Stephen Kent

The school transport scheme is one we operate on behalf of the Department of Education. We are charged with the operation and try to make sure we do it. The last thing I will say is that the scale of the scheme at the moment is a huge consideration for us. It is more than 9,000 routes. In the context of the business I mentioned earlier of the public service obligation, PSO, we operate 230 routes. This is 9,000 routes. Therefore, when we are trying to make the-----

Logistically, it is huge.

Mr. Stephen Kent

Given the scale of it here, we are trying to make sure that we operate it. I am delighted to say, and we touch wood every time, that it has been operated as safely as possible. That is the greatest measure of success we have.

I thank Mr. Kent very much. We have gone a little bit over time.

It is fine; I was part of it too. I thank Deputy Smith. I call Deputy O'Rourke and then we will bring in Deputy Danny Healy-Rae after that.

I thank the witnesses. I echo those comments of thanks and welcome progress.

It is important that the committee pursues the proposals discussed here but it would also be helpful that there is clarity in terms of the proposals. There has been some good discussion in terms of measures needed and the proposals and opening statements from Go-Ahead Ireland and CTTC. Do Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus agree with what has been said in that arena? Are they faced with the same challenges in terms of licensing and CPCs? Is there anything the witnesses want to add to that? Maybe it would be helpful if they provided that in writing for us. They heard the opening statements, which are accessible.

I note that the CTTC said the turnaround time is between 22 and 26 weeks from that decision of a 21-year-old to become a driver. Is that consistent with what we are hearing from Go-Ahead Ireland? Are they the same processes and hurdles? Is there anything else the witnesses want to add to that?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

It is much the same.

It is the same. The witnesses agrees broadly with the opportunities to carve out-----

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Yes, sure.

-----and that maybe there are those international comparisons of how to do it more efficiently. That is fine.

I will ask each of the individual groups a couple of questions. They pointed towards the labour market. Some recommendations are to look not just outside the State but outside of the continent if we are looking at the critical skills list. How is that reflected in the major recruitment campaigns by the three providers here? Are they seeing people outside of the State and outside of the European Union? What is the turnover like in it? Are people training as bus drivers and then saying they will move to another operator or to another industry altogether? Has that changed over time? There were a number of questions with regard to the cost of living but the witnesses might just give us a sense of that labour market and turnover.

They are not specifically being asked today but for the three providers, again, how has performance improved on the back of their recruitment campaigns? Obviously, there has been much focus recently on last year's figures, including no-shows, fines and performance, which relate to frustration for customers and passengers. How has the recruitment campaign impacted on that?

Related to that and particularly for the two big providers, Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann, I am hearing from colleagues around the country that the NTA is talking about delay in the roll-out of the expansion of services such as BusConnects. I can only presume that is coming from a nervousness from Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann. Is that the case or are they telling the NTA that they want to be as ambitious as it is, and they will deliver on the ambitions that, in fairness, the Government and the NTA have, which are fully supported across the Houses, to expand public transport services in a big way?

Ms Jean O'Sullivan

I thank the Deputy. From a Bus Éireann point of view, if we just take drivers, we had 217 recruited this year, which is probably nearly as much as we had in a full year last year. We have a different issue from our colleagues present in that we actually have a national recruitment campaign. We do not, therefore, have the challenges Dublin Bus has in a large, saturated market.

There are a couple of things we are finding within the labour market. From a bus driver point of view, those who have existing D licences are already in employment and they are typically happy in employment and do not want to move. Our focus, therefore, like Dublin Bus, Go-Ahead Ireland and others here, is in the training facilities.

When the opportunities come up nationally, the biggest opportunity for us will be in Cork with the potential of maybe 200 drivers over the next year or so. We will go into the same type of system Dublin Bus has just gone through in terms of that mass recruitment, which requires training schools, and our recruitment will be through the training school.

The challenge is that it is most likely going to also have to be an international campaign. We will probably look to south Wales and other areas that are a kind of commutable distance to Cork. Housing will be an issue for us at that stage. Anybody who is being attracted to Ireland at the moment is having difficulty in terms of not only the cost of relocation and cost of living here but also finding accommodation. Our biggest growth areas will be Cork, Limerick and Galway and all of those are now emerging into the housing issue.

We are trying to do our best to try to make sure we have a good lead time into a lot of those recruitment campaigns in order that we can accelerate the growth opportunities within the NTA. From the ambition point of view, therefore, we are trying to get out ahead of it. We have more time maybe than some of our colleagues in the room have had on the basis that we know what is coming in the next 24 months. We are not complacent. It will be very challenging for us but at least we have a little bit more time to plan it.

Okay. I thank Ms O'Sullivan.

Ms Jean O'Sullivan

One of the biggest issues, and the area in which we have difficulty that is not as easily worked through, is with regard to the mechanics. The market is very much saturated again for mechanics, particularly in Dublin. We can get mechanics in different parts of the country but we cannot even get any of our mechanics to potentially move to our sites in Dublin because of the cost of living and trying to find housing.

We are, with our colleagues in Dublin Bus, increasing the number of apprenticeships coming through, but that is for the future. The key issue is now, so we are also looking internationally. However, there is a cost associated with that. There is also no commitment from anybody who decides to come from Europe to work for Bus Éireann that he or she will stay with us for a longer period when we have already incurred the cost.

The biggest issue for me in the context of the talent market is that we have an ageing population and workforce. They will retire. We will also have new recruits. We need to manage the culture of the organisation for the new organisation that is now going to emerge. As Senator Doherty said, it is going to be unusual to have people working in any organisation for more than 15 years. It is a much more transient labour market in general. We have issues other than recruitment to think of.

Does Mr. Hann have anything to add on the labour market?

I would like to come back on the issue of performance and how that has been impacted.

Mr. Billy Hann

The labour market for us is similar to that of our colleagues in Bus Éireann. As I said earlier, the main issue at the moment is not with drivers because we are getting a substantial number of people applying. The issue is largely with mechanics. As I said, we are having to look outside the State to see if we can bring people in. We will work closely with the Department on the critical skills list to ensure we can accommodate people as best we can. It is important to note we have 76 nationalities working in Dublin Bus, so we take people from outside the State.

The Deputy spoke about staff turnover. It has increased in recent years and is running at around 5% to 6%, but that is still very low for the transport sector and would be reflected in other sectors outside transport. The days of employees like Terry Clinton who are going to last 50 years in an organisation are probably well and truly gone. The younger generation tend to do their ten or 15 years, or maybe even fewer, and move on. That is something we all have to mitigate against.

As to our performance from a lost kilometres point of view, that was around 94.5% in 2022, approximately. We do not have quarter 2 figures for this year yet, but in quarter 1 it was up to 97%, so we are seeing an improvement in performance there. That is positive and is largely on the back of all the hard work Mr. Donohue and his team in HR have done on getting the resources in.

To conclude, I ask Go-Ahead and Bus Éireann to address performance.

The witnesses should be as brief as they can.

Mr. Stephen Kent

We are at 99%, so the figure is similar to Dublin Bus.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

Between January and June, we were at over 98% of operated mileage within our control.

I thank the witnesses.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae is a visitor to our committee. He is very welcome.

I thank the Vice Chairman. I must declare it may construed by some that I have a conflict because I have been operating a school transport business started by my late father in 1956.

I did not know that. We are all learning something today.

We are still on the go, with a very small operation. I am conversant with buses and the problems. I welcome the witnesses and thank them for coming. There are issues here, especially for the private operators. Drivers are the issue that every transport operator in County Kerry is talking about, and I know most of them. It is impossible to get drivers. I can understand where Dublin Bus is coming from and see it is able to advertise that it can offer people €800 or so per week. That is grand and I wish it well with that, but people in school transport cannot come near that amount because they are tied into contracts and only have so much. It is not a full-time job and with the cost of living now, people need a full-time job, or maybe a couple of jobs, to keep food on the table or keep going.

There are a few things that would make a difference to private operators providing school transport and we have been asking for them. The 70-year rule means good, capable drivers are parked up and thrown on the scrap heap. It is not right because I see people of that age working in the US and UK. As has been proposed, a medical could be carried out by Bus Éireann or whichever company once or twice a year to ensure these people are fit. No more than everyone else, I want to avoid harm coming to drivers or children, tourists or other bus passengers. We cannot entertain that. I asked the Minister about this issue a year ago and we did not get anywhere. I ask again that this be looked it. These fellows are the grandest, most capable drivers. Driving was their game and what they did for a living but then at 70 years of age they are parked up. It is not right. It is discrimination.

We had a discussion on that point with Mr. Kent, the CEO of Bus Éireann which implements the scheme. I will let him address the Deputy's remarks if he wishes, or the Deputy may wish to keep going.

There is another issue that affects the younger fellows, which is that drivers may get a licence to drive other types of large vehicles at 19 years of age, but that does not happen with buses. If a fellow wants to be a bus driver, he will be 23 or maybe 24 years of age.

The other issue is mechanics. I have a mechanic on to me at the present time who has the work part of his apprenticeship done with Diarmuid Brosnan in Killarney but he has been told he must wait 18 months before he can get a place in the college. He says he will not hang around for that and will go to Australia instead. Why should he wait 18 months to do a course that takes four years? He told me he wants to get going, build a house and start a family.

Maybe that is enough for now. I have only a small bit to add after that. I am especially concerned about the 70-year rule because we are losing drivers we should be able to keep.

Mr. Kent addressed that already but for the benefit of our visiting member, he might articulate again where Bus Éireann is coming from.

Mr. Stephen Kent

As the Deputy knows and has just said, it is a policy. It is not intended to be in any way discriminatory. It is simply a policy that is based on judgment. The judgment is all about trying to keep the children as safe as possible. Last year, when we had the greatest demand increase for drivers as a result of the waiving of school transport fees which created greater demand for the service, we still managed to put every child on a bus. There were certain gaps for a period, but we did it.

We are here because we still believe it is better to continue to bring more drivers into the industry than to try to extend careers. We have seen a lot of data and I have had a lot of consultation. I have gone to the chief executive of the Road Safety Authority. As members know, we are having a difficulty in that incidents involving fatalities on the road have increased and the trend is against us. I have listened to that and I try to listen to any advice on what happens when people get older. As we know, there are lots of things. The Deputy and I both know there are many fit 70-year-olds but we are trying to make the best decision, one that encompasses the 9,000 routes we operate. What we have at the moment is something that is working. We have a safety record that is keeping people, at last, safe. In the contracts we know someone is approaching the age of 70 so a contractor should continue to provide the service and see if it can get a replacement when someone is available. From all the internal consultation I have had with our medical officer and Department officials and from looking at other consultations and studies around the place, the risk increases rather than decreases.

For something as precious as the cargo of little children, we are just simply making a decision in the best interests of the scheme, and the safety of everybody. There is no right or wrong in it. One will probably find that there will be a driver who is fit and able. It is not meant to discriminate against that. It is simply to put something in a policy that will direct us in the best way to operate as safely as possible. That is all it is.

We do not just roll it over. We brought it in to our board again as recently as November just gone, and reviewed it all. There was a strong debate within the board about the pros and cons. It came in to our safety committee, and there was nothing to compel us to change our position, so we hold the position where it is, continue to recruit, and fill in the positions. I think what we are doing at the moment is working, so we should probably still continue to do that, given that the safety record speaks for itself. That is where we are.

I thank Mr. Kent for his answer. All I can say to him is that the private operators out there are saying that they do not want to jeopardise the lives of anyone, young or old. In that vein, they are saying that if the drivers that go over a certain age were medically tested by Bus Éireann's doctors, once or twice a year, surely that would determine whether they were physically and mentally suitable to drive a school bus, or any bus. We have other arms of the State then, those other services that Bus Éireann is providing, where there is no question of being under 70, and they are taking children as well. That is the part of it I cannot understand. It does not make sense to deprive them of doing one job while they can maybe do another.

We will continue on the testing, then put a face or colour on the length of time that people are waiting for a driving test to upgrade their licence - first of all to get a car licence, and second of all to upgrade it to a bus licence, or even a lorry licence. There is no face or colour to think that the whole process could take a year, or year and a half. It is not fair and it is not right, and I do not know who is going to answer me about that side of it. It is absolutely ridiculous, and I can say to the witnesses without fear or favour, whatever the story is about the rest of the country, we are way worse down in Kerry. That is the God's gospel truth. We need fair play in that, because it is wronging youngsters who want to get going and want to get their toes on the ground. In rural Ireland and rural Kerry, one cannot move anywhere without that, regardless of what the Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan or the Green Party think. One cannot travel distances on a bicycle in Kerry. One must have a car, and one must start off. I certainly would not condone people not being fit to drive, whether they are young or old, but the situation with the drivers' licences and the testing is not fair, and it is not on. People are being treated unfairly in that regard.

I have one other issue to raise with Bus Éireann or the NTA. We have a situation in the Ring of Kerry where we always had a bus service for the summer months, and we did not have it last week. I am asking what is happening. I have been asked to ask about it. What is happening or going on with that? There is a lot of, we will say, boastfulness by the Government about new routes and that, but where is our old route gone? The Ring of Kerry is the most important route in the whole of the country in terms of tourism, sites to be seen, and keeping jobs and the hospitality sector going. I have been asked to ask that question. Where is that service gone?

Mr. Stephen Kent

I will take it up with the NTA. Kerry did not do bad last weekend. There was a lovely 270 route opened, the most scenic bus drive in the country. The NTA, in fairness, has funded that, and it is running all the way, as the Deputy knows, from Skibbereen over to Killarney. There was a new service that went in on the back of that, which is tremendous. There will be continued investment, but I will take the Ring of Kerry back to see if that is going to come in. I know that in my own home town, we only introduced a summer service as well last week. Sometimes it is timing, and sometimes it is funding, and for us probably, the prioritisation went into trying to get that all of that Skibbereen to Killarney route put in, which is going to be a tremendous success as well. I take the Deputy's point, and I will respond to him directly on that if he likes.

Please, but it is no good to rob Peter to pay Paul. That was never a good plan, so I am asking Mr. Kent to look at that. We want that route back.

Mr. Stephen Kent

Yes. I will go in and ask for the extra money from the NTA and see if it will give it to us.

It is on the public record now. It was asked for here, so we better make sure we do what we can.

Mr. Stephen Kent

It is subject to a decision by the NTA. If it is there, we will seek to operate it, but we will come back and see what we can do on it.

I thank Mr. Kent very much.

I thank Deputy Healy-Rae for joining us today. Senator Doherty can come back in.

I asked this question, but I ran out of time. I would like to ask Mr. Hann what factors contributed to the delay in the installation of e-charging infrastructure that has all of our electric buses stored up and not able to be used.

Mr. Billy Hann

I thank Senator Doherty for her kind comments regarding Terry Clinton, they are much appreciated. With our electric buses, first of all we need to acknowledge it is a really good news story. It will be a significant contributor to the reduction in greenhouse gases over the next number of years, so that is really positive. The realities with regard to the delays are largely around planning permission. In recent times, a contract was awarded to a contractor for the installation of charging points in two depots, Phibsborough and Summerhill. Part of that contract was for them, based on their design and build designs, to seek planning permission or derogations if required. That particular contractor, under other consultation with planning experts from the Dublin area, sought a derogation under section 5 of the Planning and Development Act 2000, and unfortunately that was not upheld. That company is back to the drawing board with regard to submitting again under a different clause of section 5, but also submitting full planning permission, and that is at this moment in time. The delay is largely around getting planning for the actual charging units, which will be located in the depots.

Okay. I have one last question. I am not really sure if this is for Go Ahead Ireland or Dublin Bus. I am not sure if Bus Éireann has anything to do with BusConnects. The charge has been made that the new BusConnects routes are actually going to increase our carbon footprint as opposed to decreasing it and improving services. Is there any truth to that?

I wanted to bring up the same point. To develop Senator Doherty's query, is it a case that the bus fleet is going to create greater carbon emissions, because there are more of them doing more stuff? Presumably, the desire would be that lots of people get out of their cars, and stop creating carbon emissions from their cars. Has that been factored into the overall calculation or not?

Mr. Stephen Kent

We have just introduced the electric service in Athlone, so the members are not wrong. If BusConnects is going to put more kilometres in that one is going to drive, the company's CO2 emissions will go up, but the community and environmental CO2 emissions will come down. It could come down on two fronts. One is that cars will be removed from it. We talked about the school transport scheme, and KPMG did a study for us last year which ended up saying that if we put that in, it takes about 12,500,000 car journeys off the road.

This is the 9,000 routes.

Mr. Stephen Kent

Yes. It takes cars off the road, and typically, one has that carbon saving. The second part that is coming through is the conversion of the vehicle into low-emission or zero-emission. In the case of Athlone, it means that for us, in a year, 500 tonnes of CO2 or carbon emissions will be saved, just by running the electric vehicle versus the diesel equivalent. One will get two fronts out of it. If anything, what we will be arguing for is that if we are going to do all of these things, we have to be conscious as well - and I will speak on behalf of the bus company parochially - that there should be carbon credits for the fact that one is providing more environmentally friendly journeys, rather than just pure kilometres alone.

Yes, but we do not give our farmers carbon credits. I do not have much hope of them getting them anyway. Where did the notion come about - maybe it is just a journalist's article - that BusConnects is actually going to increase our carbon footprint?

Mr. Stephen Kent

It will for the kilometres that are run, but it is not taking into account the fact that there are offsets, and that probably needs to be factored in.

Will the offsets be included in the rating, or will it be like our farmers, that you will only be rated on the fact that your carbon footprint is up and someone else will get the credit for their carbon footprint being down?

Mr. Stephen Kent

From 2025, every company is going to have to report in a very transparent way how they derive it and what they create. I will not get into what is called the corporate sustainability reporting directive, CSRD. This is the reporting directive that is going to make sure we are all completely transparent on that. That will be seen in time.

I have a couple of brief items. I am conscious Mr. Crowley has been there watching on screen the whole time and we have not had him in to speak. That tends to happen when someone is on a screen in the background and is staying quiet. They do not get to wave their hand at me as much. Did he want to come in on anything that was said? I am aware that people use the Wexford bus service and value it very much. People in Enniscorthy and Wexford town and so on are all very pleased to use it. Is there anything in the meeting on which he wanted to make an observation? I am afraid we are not hearing Mr. Crowley. Maybe he could dip out and try to log back in just in case. Even though his microphone symbol looks like it is on, he is not to be heard. Maybe we should not have tried that at all.

I note a couple of things. We have had a very good session. Even the four opening statements in themselves gave us a lot of information and stuff for us to discuss. One of our first meetings back in September will be with the Road Safety Authority, RSA, with Applus+ about national car tests, NCTs, but also about the National Driver Licence Service, NDLS. We are hoping to bring in that part of it and the whole driver testing system. We have lots of figures about driver testing and the difficulties there for everybody, even for a B licence let alone a D licence or anything else, and we can feed that in. There are other aspects. The witnesses touched on the social welfare system and it was referenced in the opening remarks from the CTTC, and other matters as well. I am probably not Dublin Bus's best customer in that I try to cycle to Leinster House as much as I can but we all use public transport and we all want to use public transport. I certainly know of the campaigns such as getting the 11 bus to run 24 hours, which would suit me perfectly, in terms of the universities. We have a shortage of taxis. We could get some more buses on the roads at night particularly for younger people working in jobs. They are working in not necessarily well paid jobs, or at the lower end of the scale for sure, in hospitality and retail and so on. They are spending a big chunk of their take-home pay on a taxi home when if the bus was running, it would be fantastic. Will Mr. Hann touch on any proposals for further night buses? Regarding the fleet, I know there are new buses coming but is the fleet ageing or getting younger? I still see buses that are relatively old in my neck of the woods. I used to be told on the 62 route that we always had the oldest buses because there were not too many hills and they tended not to break down. It is a query about the fleet and obviously, about the upgrading to electrical vehicles.

Regarding ticketless travel, we spoke recently enough about the whole procedure of going cashless or in that direction. Many people are online. I believe Go-Ahead mentioned its very low level of cash collection. There is obviously a big cost in collecting cash, processing it and security and so on. Do the witnesses see this going in a particular direction as to cashless travel? This is not to exclude anyone but in terms of credit card acceptance and so on. I am aware that is an NTA project but I am interested in how it would improve the services and so on? I direct that question to Mr. Hann first regarding the fleet and the night buses.

Mr. Billy Hann

I will bring our chief customer officer in on that in a moment. There are currently ten 24-hour routes as we know and we have another-----

Just not the one for me.

Mr. Billy Hann

It is just not the one for the Leas-Chathaoirleach or for me. We have a number of Nitelink services running over the weekend as well and Mr. Ciarán Rogan will come in with a bit more detail. All future phases of BusConnects will be 24-hour routes as well.

With regards to the age of the fleet, the idea there would be that as electric buses are coming on stream, we will swap out the older part of the fleet with the newer electric buses where appropriate and where range is not an issue. From the point of view of ticketless and cashless machines-----

This is in terms of also using credit cards and not having to have a Leap card. It is great if people have a Leap card but the question for tourists coming in is where to find and get one and so on.

Mr. Billy Hann

That is a really good point. As we know, we have Leap card and that is cashless travel from that perspective. The NTA has been out to tender to a company that will implement the system across the whole transport network. It is an NTA project. I believe that tender is close to being awarded to a contractor so I do not have any details on what the roll-out plan will be for that over the next period of time. That is something we would have to ask the NTA. Certainly, from our own perspective, as regards the move towards a cashless system, we will absolutely support anything that is going to improve the experience for the customer.

It will certainly speed it up.

Mr. Billy Hann

For sure.

I know there are the machines now and the robbery element of it is long gone but equally it is bureaucratic and expensive for Dublin Bus. There is probably a cash office and the security and all that goes with it. What is the percentage of revenue coming from cash now? Is it 5% or 10% or is it 30%?

Mr. Billy Hann

I do not have that figure off the top of my head but I will get back to the committee.

Mr. Hann might just let us know. It would be interesting. Nobody wants to exclude anybody but in this day and age probably nearly everybody has either a credit or a debit card and if they do not, a Leap card is not a huge ask if it can speed up the journey time. I remember asking one of Mr. Hann's predecessors years ago when I was on the local authority if every second or third 46A could be cashless. That would encourage people to go cashless because if they got on the cashless bus, their journey time would be faster. I was told that revenue would be lost that way but in fact revenue is not being lost; it just changing how it is collected.

Mr. Billy Hann

Certainly, from our perspective, we would be very supportive of moving towards using credit cards or just phones in addition to the Leap card services. Again, the NTA are responsible for that part and that is its call.

Mr. Billy Hann

It would be rolled out across the whole network; not just in the Dublin area. Before I hand over to Mr. Rogan, it is also worth noting that we are the only 24-hour operator of public transport in the greater Dublin area.

Even the Aircoach goes to sleep for a few hours.

Mr. Ciarán Rogan

On the cash side of things, I think we are down to about 20% or less cash revenue at the moment.

It surprises me that it is even as high as 20% because the cashless fares are much cheaper than the cash fares.

Mr. Ciarán Rogan

Yes. They are significantly lower.

The €2 fare only applies to cashless, does it not?

Mr. Ciarán Rogan

London is a very good model where they basically increased the gap between cash and cashless very significantly. However, there is always a very small cohort of people who want to pay with cash and the way it was got rid of was to take the cash off the bus and put vending machines at the side of the road. Certainly, the more cash is taken off the bus, the quicker the speed of boarding and there are real benefits that accrue across the entire system. The project the NTA has incorporates the use of contactless bank cards and back office account-based ticketing, which is what it is referred to as. Again, it is similar to what would be the case in London. As Mr. Hann has said, we are a couple of years away from the implementation of that.

Dublin Bus will probably need new technology on the buses to handle that.

Mr. Ciarán Rogan

We will certainly require new technology. Another channel would be the mobile ticketing, the use of mobile phones which I know is available on some of the Bus Éireann services.

As regards the nighttime services, as Mr. Hann has said we currently have ten routes that run throughout the night.

Was that Dublin Bus's call or the NTA's call? How did that happen?

Mr. Ciarán Rogan

The final decision was the NTA but we made a significant case to it. The routes which initially became 24-hour were concentrated on the major north-south and east-west routes and making sure the airport was served 24-hours because of the employment base up there.

There are certain routes that do not really work very well operationally during the day because of congestion. I am thinking of the number 11 in my own area. It is not an overly reliable route because it does not have many bus priority lanes until one is almost in the city centre. Whereas at nighttime, that bus absolutely flies along-----

Mr. Ciarán Rogan

It would fly up and back, yes.

-----and would serve Sandyford, which is a huge employment area, Luas connections, University College Dublin, UCD, itself, Dublin City University, DCU, on the other end, Trinity College Dublin in the middle, and many younger trip generators who are probably out more often than people who are a bit older. I know DCU was campaigning for it at one stage and from the UCD side, it would certainly very interested in it from the back gate of the UCD side of the campus.

Mr. Ciarán Rogan

DCU is being served now because of the N4 which is the northern orbital route which we operate 24 hours and that creates very good linkages to quite a few of the other 24-hour services. The C spine and the G spine, both of which have gone in, have 24-hour services as part of those. As Mr. Hann has said, the remaining six or seven cases - there are four done now out of ten or 11 - will all have 24-hour services within them. Therefore, we will see a gradual increase between the end of this year and into next year and the entire city will be covered.

We have not been able to get Mr. Crowley back. Unfortunately, we cannot hear him but we appreciate him being here. I have no doubt we will get to talk to him some other time. The system is not working and we are not picking up any sound. I apologise for that. I do not know where the glitch is but it is a glitch nonetheless.

We have had a great session. Do the witnesses wish to make any further points? I will begin with Dublin Bus.

Mr. Billy Hann

We have nothing to add.

What about Bus Éireann?

Mr. Stephen Kent

We have nothing to add either, other than to invite the Acting Chairman to travel on one of our 14 Expressway routes on which contactless payments can be made.

It is excellent that Bus Éireann has contactless payment facilities. I thought Mr. Kent was going to invite me to travel for free. Do the CTTC representatives have anything to add?

Mr. Feargal Barton

No. I thank the committee for having us and giving us the opportunity to make our points.

There is much in the opening statements that the committee will consider. Individual members will also pursue other issues raised. We received useful answers. Does Mr. Edwards wish to comment?

Mr. Andrew Edwards

No, thank you.

It is Mr. Edwards's fault that we are here, although in a good way. It is to his credit we are all here because it was on foot of a visit to his depot that I said we wanted to discuss the problems and blockages in the system. Post Covid there are blockages everywhere, including with work permits and passports. The issue with passports has improved immensely. We are coming out of that process. It is wonderful to see so many people using public transport. Initially, there was serious concern that numbers had not returned to back to pre-pandemic levels but on most routes, those levels are now being exceeded. Considering that people are still regularly working from home, that is miraculous and a testament to how good the services provided by the transport companies are. Mr. Edwards has something to add.

Mr. Andrew Edwards

We need legislation to support some of the work we have been discussing.

Yes. The witnesses should feed into this committee by all means. On foot of this meeting, they may want to come back to us with particular requests. That could be a request that we speak to the Department of Social Protection about counting hours rather than days worked. That is a sensible proposal. We had a good answer on the age limit of 70 years. On recruitment, the number of applicants has gone from fewer than 100 to over 1,500. One cannot look at a Dublin Bus without being reminded that the company is hiring, and that approach has worked. It would be great to work out how to get my name and "Vote No. 1" slogan printed on the front of buses on particular routes if I were ever running for the Dáil. We will work on that some other day.

I thank the witnesses for attending and assisting the committee with this important matter. We strayed from the official topic but that always happens. All the contributions were useful. It was great to have the witnesses here. I look forward to seeing them again soon.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.23 p.m. until 1.30 p.m on Wednesday, 12 July 2023.
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