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Joint Committee on Transport and Communications debate -
Wednesday, 22 Nov 2023

Management of Passenger Numbers at Dublin Airport: Discussion

The purpose of the meeting today is for the joint committee to meet the DAA to discuss the management of passenger numbers at Dublin Airport. I remind members that the matter of the Dublin Airport north runway falls outside the scope of this meeting, as was agreed by the members at a previous private meeting. We all understand why that is the case. It is unfortunate, but that is the case at the moment. I am very pleased to welcome Mr. Kenny Jacobs, CEO of the DAA.

On privilege, witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside of the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate when he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask members participating via Microsoft Teams that, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

I invite Mr. Jacobs to make his opening Powerpoint presentation. We will try to show a video at slide 27 of 43. Hopefully, that will work.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I thank the committee for the opportunity to attend. I think this is my third time appearing before it. We were also in the Oireachtas in October for the launch of our economic impact study for Dublin. We plan to do something to that effect in Cork in the new year as well. I thank the committee for the invitation and am happy to be back here. I will give the members an overview of everything that is going on in the DAA. As members can see from the slide, the presentation will cover Dublin Airport operations; a Cork Airport update; flight paths, noise and the community, and how we are working with the community in Fingal; the recent economic impact study; and planning priorities and the infrastructure application that we will be submitting in less than three weeks' time to Fingal County Council. The video will describe what is going to happen with that infrastructure application, how we will be giving Ireland and Dublin a much better Dublin Airport and how sustainability is a key part of that. I will also talk about sustainability. There are also a few other topics I might refer to. There are about 20 slides to go through in the presentation. I again thank the committee for the opportunity to appear today.

I will start with Dublin Airport. It is nearly the end of November and we have had a good year at Dublin Airport. Operations have been very stable. We had a good summer, with a lot of passengers going through. Generally, passengers have been very happy with the service we have given them. Security is performing very well. Much different from the previous summer, standards at Dublin Airport this year were very strong. We did a huge amount of work in the run-up to the summer to improve the things that matter at the airport. We have invested in faster Wi-Fi, improved the toilet facilities and improved the food, beverage and retail offerings. We worked on the transportation options and to get Dublin Airport ready to be a much better airport for passengers in the summer. I think we delivered that and I thank the team at Dublin Airport who worked very hard to achieve it.

The next slide shows that feedback from passengers is very positive.

The net promoter score, which is based on asking passengers whether they would recommend Dublin Airport to others, has improved by 25% compared with the previous year. We are happy with that. Also, 98% of passengers got through security in less than 20 minutes. I believe it was in February of last year that I first appeared before this committee, and I set out what we were looking to do for the summer. We have more than delivered in terms of queue times.

Was that not February of this year?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Yes. We are happy with our progress. It is a stable operation and will continue. We have invested in a large number of new positions in the security operation – we will have close to 1,000 people in that regard. Security will improve further as we roll out the C3 scanners, which are like MRI machines. They are much better for compliance, but they are also a better passenger experience because people do not have to take liquids out of their bags. I hope some of the committee’s members have had this experience going through Dublin Airport. We intend to roll the machines out across T1, T2 and Cork Airport. In the coming decades, they will probably become the norm at all European airports.

The committee will see from the next slide that we are driving a great deal of innovation. I believe it was at our previous meeting that someone asked me about the viewing point on Old Airport Road. That is the top picture on the slide. We are planning to ask Fingal County Council to make the viewing point something much better for people who like to come out to see aircraft take off and land. I do that with my kids on a regular basis. We want to make the viewing point one of our community initiatives in the years ahead.

There has been significant invest in our app and the baggage screening system. I have already mentioned the C3 security machines. There is much more investment in maintenance and we are sprucing the place up. We are adding more food and beverage options so that, when passengers are at the terminal, there are plenty of places to go and shop. Obviously, that is good for our bottom line as well. We appointed a new managing director of Dublin Airport at the end of the summer, Mr. Gary McLean. We have also appointed a new managing director of DAA LABS, which will drive our digital innovation. There is a lot of digital work under way across security, infrastructure and sustainability at airports and in aviation more generally. It is one of the key areas in which we see ourselves investing. Sustainability and digital go hand in hand and will be two key pillars in driving the organisation forward.

Regarding better lounges and more seating capacity for passengers, we have a capacity of approximately 500 passengers in our lounges. We would like to double that in the years ahead. This would involve a larger platinum lounge as well as more lounge capacity in T1 and T2, which passengers are looking for. A new Dublin Airport app has been launched and there will be regular updates to it. I have already mentioned the new community viewing area. There will be further improvements in Wi-Fi and air conditioning. We need additional air conditioning because the C3 security machines generate much more heat. There will be more mobile phone charging points. This will include the repair of some of those points that the Leas-Chathaoirleach mentioned when we last met in October. There will also be more EV spaces. EV ownership is growing and we want to be able to offer people the ability to drive from anywhere in the country, park at Dublin Airport and charge their vehicles while they are on their trips. Their vehicles would be fully charged when they return and picked them up.

We will have a modest increase in charges in 2024. These are regulated charges, and they will increase by approximately 5% at a time when our cost inflation is over 10% and, for the third year in a row, air fares have increased by close to 30%. Airline balance sheets are in a fantastic position post the pandemic, and good luck to them. That is very good, and they are using the money to invest in modern fleets. I would like the charges at Dublin to increase further because, even with the increase in 2024, our charges will still be less than half the European average for capital cities. The charges at Shannon and Cork should also increase, as that would allow those airports to invest further in what they would like to invest in, for example, the roll-out of C3 scanners and additional resources in their organisations.

Cork Airport had a good summer. As the next slide shows, new routes have been added and will continue to be added. People sometimes tell us that the DAA is all about Dublin Airport, but it is not. I am from Cork and am wearing my Cork pin. We are looking to grow Dublin from 32 million passengers to 40 million, representing a 25% increase, by 2030, but we are looking to grow Cork Airport by more than that. Cork Airport does not have a planning restriction and there is a large national plan to develop Cork city and county. By 2040, the population of the city and county will be 1 million. This will drive demand for travel, which will see further routes added at Cork Airport. This year, Cork Airport will have its biggest ever year in the context of international travel. I see that continuing. We definitely want more airlines to fly to and from Cork. It has had a very good summer this year. The people of Cork are delighted to see routes like La Rochelle added. I believe we will see more of the same from Ryanair and Aer Lingus. Cork could get to 4 million or 5 million passengers.

We will be investing in Cork’s infrastructure. For those members of the committee who know Cork Airport, the bottom right-hand image on this next slide is a diagram explaining what the infrastructure at Cork would look like – many more stands, which potentially means many more aircraft. As Cork Airport expands, we would knock the old terminal, with a new pier taking its place. Aircraft would be parked up against it. As you come into the existing terminal, you would go left down to the new pier. We will also be rolling out C3 screening machines in Cork, a solar farm will be developed in 2024 and a new electrical substation was recently launched. We have big plans for Cork. It is stable and I see the airlines becoming more interested. If Dublin is capped, some airlines will put on routes to Cork, but that would be in the margins. I do not see it happening lock, stock and barrel. Having worked in the airline business, airlines generally say that they will look at Cork and Shannon in terms of regional competition between those airports, but they do not really look at taking routes out of Dublin and moving them to Cork or Shannon. Rather, they will look at duplicating routes. I hope that Cork and Shannon grow in the years ahead.

I will move on to flight paths, noise and the community. Flight paths were recently discussed. These are designed by experts to align with planning and international safety regulations. We are responsible for the flight paths. We delegate that responsibility to AirNav Ireland as the air navigation service provider, ANSP. Flight paths are examined and approved by the IAA in its role as the regulator. When the north runway at Dublin launched, we had flight paths that, from August until February of this year, was overflying some parts of the communities that were not consulted. That has been fixed since February and we have apologised for our error. I am happy to be able to say that those flight paths are now fully compliant with what we consulted the communities on. This will continue to be the case. That is pretty much what I have to say about flight paths. We are responsible for them. We do this work with AirNav Ireland and we consult the IAA, which signs off on the flight paths.

Regarding noise, we released a document, entitled The Facts on Noise Management and Mitigation at Dublin Airport, at the end of the summer because we wanted to demonstrate what had happened since 2019. There has been a 50% reduction in the number of households impacted by noise compared with 2019. There were always two runways at Dublin Airport. The crosswind runway was used when aircraft were taking off in very windy conditions and sent aircraft straight over Whitehall, Beaumont and Santry. A large number of households were impacted by noise on those windy mornings in particular. That has now changed with the north runway, which is why a much smaller number of households are impacted by noise. This year, we announced an incentive for airlines that used quieter and more sustainable aircraft. This discount on charges will kick in next year.

We take the issue of noise very seriously. It is a big topic for aviation and airports across the world. The good news is that aircraft are getting quieter. Ireland is progressive compared with other European countries. We have an effective noise regulator in the aircraft noise competent authority, ANCA. We invest in noise monitoring to see where the noise is. There are strict noise contours, which are managed by the ANCA. We have insulted 150 homes, or three quarters of the 200 that the ANCA’s noise modelling suggests we could and should insulate. Fifty have not been insulated because those households have not asked us yet. As soon as they do, we will go ahead and insulate them against noise. This insulation brings noise levels right down for households. I see us probably insulating a couple of hundred homes in the years ahead. We have a relevant action in with An Bord Pleanála, within which we have an additional noise insulation scheme that we would like to get improved. We would then proceed to insulate more homes.

We are constantly working on this with ANCA. We meet with it regularly and will continue to do that. We take noise very seriously. It is about monitoring and insulating homes. We have bought out homes that are very near the end of the runway and will continue to do that. That is at 30% above the market price.

I have touched on noise mitigation measures. There are 200 homes eligible for this, of which 150 have been completed so far. We continue to monitor this. We have good engagement with Kilcoskan school. It is a topic that has been discussed at the committee. We had our last meeting with the principal this morning. We are working on a few options that we would like to put in place for the kids there, especially those with special needs. I met the principal about a month ago and we had a second meeting this morning. We are exploring what we are going to do there. A new complaints system is in place. That is a good thing because then there is full disability on the noise complaints for ourselves, Fingal County Council and ANCA into the future.

On community engagement, I think we are a good neighbour in Fingal and we continue to want that. It is something we need to continue to work at. We have a €10 million community fund available for projects in the local area, of which €2 million has been invested since 2017. More than 100 projects will be funded this year alone. That is also supported by events we have done such as the recent Halloween event in Swords Castle. There has been very good ongoing community engagement. People are constantly out meeting households, nursing homes and schools and really engaging with the community to hear back from them on their views and what more we can do. We want to be a good neighbour and I consider that we are a good neighbour. We are constantly listening and will continue to engage, to do what we need to and to take their ideas on board.

Turning to the economic impact study, it is Dublin Airport but it is Ireland’s airport. I am a big fan of all the airports in Ireland and aviation in general but Dublin Airport is Ireland’s airport and is the gateway to Ireland. Some 16,000 jobs are supported at the airport. More than half of those are outside Dublin city and county. It provides €9.6 billion in economic value added or 2.3% of the economy. That is really important. Dublin airport plays a really important role in connectivity, including for businesses investing in Ireland. We hear that from the business community. We launched this economic impact study in the Oireachtas with both IBEC and Irish Congress of Trade Unions. Dublin Airport is a key driver of economic success on this open island on the periphery of Europe and it is a key driver of jobs. Some 27% of the jobs are in Fingal and 21% in the rest of Dublin but 52% of the jobs are in the rest of the country.

On planning and the passenger cap, we will fully comply with the 32 million passenger cap on Dublin airport. That will only change when we get planning permission to go above that. That is a matter of fact and what we will continue to do. That is leading to tough conversations with the airlines. The airlines have said publicly they are unhappy with the cap and it should be lifted. We would like the cap to be lifted. I hope it is once we get planning and I hope we get planning as quickly as possible but it will take a while. We will submit our infrastructure application to Fingal County Council by 15 December. The sooner it is approved the better. There will be challenges. It is a very good infrastructure application. I will play the committee a video shortly that describes what that will do. Until then, we will be fully compliant with the cap on Dublin Airport. The cap is a planning condition linked to surface access. We would be managing to that, and we are managing actively down capacity. We have taken out transit passengers. We have taken away a growth incentive from the airlines. We will look at how we will manage this from 2024. That puts difficult choices on the table such as charter flights, non-scheduled flights and general aviation. We might say the priority will be scheduled commercial services with passengers on board and that will create some difficulty. I am sure the committee will have had representations from people saying they are unhappy with this and the cap should be lifted but we will manage to the cap and the restriction until we get a green light on planning. That will lead to difficult choices but that is what we have to do until we get the new planning permission. The impact with be on general aviation and business checks on sports and special events. These include events such as the Europa League final or the six nations. Where charter jets are looking to come to Dublin Airport, we may tell them that they need to go to Shannon, Cork or Belfast as we cannot accommodate them because we are managing the 32 million passengers. I am just flagging that; it is not new news but it is important everyone understands that.

Generally, caps do not work. The cap at Schiphol Airport was mentioned a couple of times at the committee. This week or last week, the cap there was removed. It was challenged by the European Commission for being anti-competitive. There was a view that it would aid sustainability but all that happened was Air France-KLM moved hub traffic to Charles de Gaulle Airport in Paris. That is really what happened. Caps do not stop flying. They just move the flights some place else. A cap at Dublin Airport will just make the airlines move to another big hub airport such as Manchester or Edinburgh. An airport like Edinburgh is already talking to the airlines to the effect that if Dublin is capped, it will give them a special incentive to do transatlantic routes there. That will not be good for jobs in Ireland. It will not take flights out of the sky within the EU and the UK; it will just move them elsewhere.

There is another myth that if Dublin is capped, the flights will move to Shannon and Cork because that is what happened in the Netherlands. When Schiphol was capped, flights did not go to Rotterdam and Eindhoven. Again, it is hub traffic that just went to Charles de Gaulle. Generally, caps do not work for sustainability or for moving capital city airline traffic to the regional airports. There is a better way to do sustainability and to develop the traffic at the regional airports here in Ireland. It is good that the cap at Schiphol has moved. In general, they do not work.

If the traffic is capped at 32 million passengers in coming years, it would lead to reduced jobs. Approximately 16,000 jobs that could be created in Ireland, in Leinster, Dublin and Fingal, would be lost. They will go elsewhere. Air fares will go up because I suspect the airlines would do two things. They would say they would not put their newest aircraft in Dublin, which will not be good for noise and sustainability, and if demand is managed down with an artificial cap, air fares will go up. It is as simple as that. There is evidence to support that in Amsterdam and any other city that has had a cap.

Dublin is the fifth largest hub in Europe and we want to develop it as a hub into the future and to really improve the airport. Caps do not work. Keeping it will just lose jobs. We will lose connectivity. Bringing the connectivity back is a big challenge. If Aer Lingus and Ryanair said they were moving the capacity we had hoped to add to Dublin to Manchester, Edinburgh, Gatwick and other airports, it would be a challenge for us to get it back and to get the jobs associated with that traffic back. It would be wrong for Ireland and for Dublin Airport.

Turning to the timeline, we are all aware of what happened in 2008, the economic cycle and the things that happened there. That led to a big dip in aviation. Then we got on with planning for the north runway and after that there was Covid. That is why we are getting the planning application in now. If planning in Ireland was faster, everyone would say that would be good and that would help us. The infrastructure application we will submit on 15 December is very good and will show how we plan to develop Dublin Airport. Some of its key elements include a new extended pier 1 in the north apron and a new pier 5 in the south. If someone goes through terminal 2, then duty free and goes right to go to the gates, he or she will be able to go left. That will be a new pier for transatlantic flights. New C3 security machines will be added in terminals 1 and 2 and a new mezzanine floor will be added to terminal 1. We will start with security but then we will move fast track too. We will also have a new lounge there. In the airfield we will have a new underpass to get vehicles to the west side of the airport.

We will add a new apron and drainage infrastructure. On landside, we will add much more public transport infrastructure, parking and car hire facilities. I hope many more people in the years ahead come to Dublin Airport on the bus. I hope, from about 2035 onwards, that people will take metro north. That would be great as we would have fewer vehicles coming with individual drivers and fewer people sitting on their own in the back of a taxi, with more people using public transport. We are ready for the metro north station at Dublin Airport. That is all ready to go. We are a key part of the transition we need to make.

I might show the video now and then will say more. It will essentially describe what is in the infrastructure application and how the airport will develop.

The joint committee viewed an audiovisual presentation.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

That is the Dublin Airport we want to give Ireland and the €2 billion investment we want to make in infrastructure. It is a Dublin Airport that can have 40 million passengers a year, with those passengers creating less CO2 than 32 million passengers would today. A significant amount of that infrastructure application is for investments in sustainability, including a solar farm, new drainage, and new terminals with more modern heating and electricity. The emissions for every passenger going through a 40-million passenger Dublin Airport would be less than the emissions we would have if we did not do this infrastructure application. An airport is like a house. If you do not do the insulation, double-glaze the windows, have a modern boiler and so on, the energy usage will continue to go up. Sustainability at Dublin Airport, or at any airport in Ireland or globally, will ultimately go backwards unless they are modernised with modern infrastructure. About €500 million in the infrastructure application is for sustainability investments. I know some people said that cannot possibly be the case, but it is. If we cap Dublin Airport and do not invest in infrastructure, sustainability will go backwards, which is not what we want.

We are looking to grow Dublin Airport by 25%, from 32 million to 40 million. That 25% increase in capacity, which we think Ireland needs, matches the 20% to 25% population increase that is forecast between now and about 2040. Ireland's population is growing and Dublin Airport needs to grow for sustainability, to protect our connectivity, to protect businesses and to create new jobs. That is ultimately what we are looking to do. What we just saw in the presentation is a world-class airport. It is a much better experience for everybody using Dublin Airport, whether going with Ryanair on a short-haul flight to the sun or long haul with Aer Lingus or somebody else. It is a much better passenger experience and much better for sustainability, with great public transport connectivity to the terminal. That is what we would love to see and what we will submit to Fingal County Council on 13 December.

An appropriate planning framework is critical. I know the Bill was announced this morning. We have not had a chance to go through that. We had a number of key asks regarding the planning and development Bill and a national planning framework. We would like An Bord Pleanála appeals to be fast-tracked; curial deference, with no encroachment on regulated areas; planning exemptions for certain infrastructure; design flexibility for strategic infrastructure; a fast-track process where no planning issues arise, which would really help us to make many of those improvements; the publication of draft decisions on highly complex or technical issues; and transitional arrangements concerning Dublin Airport to be recognised.

On a national planning framework, and we think this would help Fingal because the council ultimately decides on this, it would be good to have a national framework that supports Fingal and any county council that is deciding on vital national infrastructure in which framework there would be a presumption in favour of sustainable development as it relates to global connectivity, which would ensure there was a roadmap for growth to at least 40 million passengers at Dublin Airport, which Fingal fully supports, and which would address the potential conflict between national and local interests. Dublin Airport is Ireland's airport. Every single day, all 32 counties in the Republic and Northern Ireland use Dublin Airport. It is the national airport and it will continue to be as it grows to 40 million passengers.

I will touch on sustainability, which is a huge issue in aviation. Aviation is now taking sustainability very seriously. For me, this is when we start to get on to scope 3 emissions and aviation is working in its totality. On sustainability, for me, this is about carbon. Aviation is not the enemy. Carbon is the enemy. Aviation needs to make breakthroughs and is working hard to make breakthroughs on how we reduce carbon. Part of that is passengers getting to the terminal on public transport, part is passengers in the airports and part is the airports working with the airlines for when those passengers leave the airport and are in an aircraft in the sky. For the airlines, it is about new aircraft, newer engines and the use of sustainable aviation fuel. For airports - us - it is about reducing energy usage, which we are making good progress on. We have grown as an airport, but we are using less energy. We will continue to do that. We want to take carbon out. We have a net zero target by 2050. We also have a target to reduce our scope 1 and scope 2 emissions by 51% by 2030.

Those targets on sustainability do not change as we move from 32 million to 40 million. We have to get the infrastructure application in and we have to make these investments under the infrastructure application to hit those targets. That allows us to be an airport providing Ireland with better connectivity and to reduce carbon at the same time, working closely with the airlines. I already mentioned we have announced a discount for airlines with newer aircraft. That is the right thing for an airport to do, because it incentivises those airlines with newer fleets. We want airlines with very high load factors, because there is nothing worse for carbon emissions than empty seats on an aeroplane.

We will really work hard with the airlines, because aviation starts to crack this when you have public transport, the airports and the airlines all working together to reduce carbon emissions. As I said, our sustainability initiatives are: net zero by 2050, green aircraft, zero-waste operations and looking at air and water quality in our local environments.

Our other sustainability initiatives are: surface water environmental compliance, which is a key part of what we are doing; airport charging - that is supporting passengers charging their own electric vehicles, but we are moving to a fully electrified fleet of buses, airside and landside, at the airport; mobility improvements - we have installed cycle lockers, completed way-finding audits and a cycle track is being developed with Fingal County Council; T1 and T2 renewable heating studies; and phase 1 of the solar farm will be kicking off. We were recently awarded the Business Working Responsibly award. We have signed up for the UN Global Compact. We are only one of 60 companies in Ireland to have done that. We are a member of the Government's task force on sustainable aviation fuels.

Members have all got to be conscious of time. Will Mr. Jacobs speed up on his last few slides? I am sure we will cover other matters when members make their contributions.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

There are only two more slides. Our sustainability investments include: renewable heating; surface water, airport charging; the PV farm; a sustainable fleet of vehicles; and public transport. These are all contained within the infrastructure application. That is what allows us to reduce the CO2 emissions per passenger at Dublin Airport as part of the infrastructure investment. Similarly, at Cork Airport we are doing the same things just at a slightly smaller scale. Everything we are doing in Dublin we will look to do in Cork. That kicked off with the investment in the electrical substation.

That is my update. I am happy to take questions.

I thank Mr. Jacobs for his comprehensive opening presentation. Members are aware that the speaking slots outlined at the start were slightly incorrect. They have since been corrected. The first member to contribute will be Deputy Matthews. We have put nine minutes on the clock, so it is nine minutes plus one.

I thank Mr. Jacobs for his presentation. Dublin Airport has a cap of 32 million passengers, but the DAA advertised in recent press releases that it had dealt with 32.9 million passengers. Is that a breach of planning conditions?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

No, it is not.

Why is it not a breach of planning conditions?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We are fully compliant with planning. If one looks at the planning condition on Dublin Airport it relates to passengers coming to the terminals related to surface access. So that is people coming in vehicles to Dublin Airport. We exclude transfers. So if you fly from Birmingham to Dublin and then Dublin to JFK, you are not coming to the airport in a vehicle.

To clarify for people who may not be familiar with this, transit and transfer is not counted in the figure of 32 million passengers.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

No, we do not.

Does Dublin Airport in any way financially benefit from transfer and transit passengers?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Yes, we do.

For financial reasons, the DAA counts those passengers but for planning reasons it does not.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

And that is fully compliant with the planning law.

In slide 21, it is stated that it should be counted. The slide states: "Transfer passengers should only be counted once" and "Transit passengers ... should not count towards the cap." That is the DAA's interpretation.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We are very clear. If you look at the planning, it relates to surface access. It is people coming to the terminal; it is not people transferring within the terminal.

Did An Bord Pleanála's decision state that those extra passengers were not exempt in the context of development?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I do not think Bord Pleanála has made a decision on that.

Was there not an appeal to or a decision made by An Bord Pleanála appeal? In the context of the 32 million cap, let us call those to whom I am referring excess passengers. Those people were never described as not being exempted.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

That was never-----

There was never a ruling on the airport exceeding passenger numbers.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

No, it was not.

In the form of transit or transfer.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

No, it was not.

It was not exempt.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

No, it was never decided on. They never gave an opinion on that.

There was a restriction of 65 flights per night across the entire airport following the 2017 planning permission decision. Is that correct?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

That is correct.

The airport is sticking to that, on average. Will Mr. Jacobs explain why some nights the number might be higher than 65.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I am limited in what I can say because there is a legal process on that.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We are looking to get the 65 movements changed because we think it is totally inappropriate. No one who granted planning for the north runway intended that there would be fewer flights with two runways than would be the case with one runway. We have a relevant action that is currently with An Bord Pleanála and that would move from a number of movements to a noise quota. That is what we are looking to have changed with that. That is a much better option. We agree with that, and Fingal County Council and ANCA, the noise regulator, agree with that.

Are there other city centre airports that have more restrictive night-time flying than applied to Dublin Airport, say, London Heathrow recently or Frankfurt?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Lots of different do it the same way. What would be the city in Europe with the greatest restrictions? Probably Brussels.

Does Mr. Jacobs suspect that some airlines fly here because they are trying to avoid those airports and they use Dublin because it is a little bit more lax on night-time flying?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

No.

So that is not the case at all.

On the routing issue, it is stated in the document presented to the committee that in August 2022, local communities were unexpectedly overflown. How is it possible to unexpectedly overfly communities for such a long period?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Flight paths are complicated and they take a long time to work through. When flights commenced on the north runway from August to February, there was a slight deviation for some flights. A small number of aircraft were marginally overflying parts of a community that were not consulted with. That has been corrected from February, which is the most important thing. That was a mistake that we had made. We apologised for it. The flight paths that operate now are fully compliant. They are the flight paths that were intended and are over the communities that were consulted with.

I am glad to hear that the DAA met with representatives of the Kilcoskan school recently. I have been contacted by residents and parents of children who attend the school as they really have difficulty with some of the noise issues. From February 2023, the flight paths relating to the north runway are as proposed in the original planning application from 2007 and the amended one.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Exactly, yes.

So the airport is fully compliant in that regard.

On sustainability, can Mr. Jacobs clarify something for me? He said that if the DAA gets to 40 million passengers, investment works can be done at Dublin Airport. He also said that these works will allow the airport to be more sustainable in terms of heating, surface water, etc. However, he did not include in that the extra emissions that would emanate from an additional 8 million passengers and the accompanying increase in the number of flights.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We do not.

I want it to be clear that it is for the actual carbon emissions footprint of the airport operation.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Of the airport.

The DAA has not included all of those 8 million additional passengers and the increase in the number of flights into and out of the airport.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I will give my view on those 8 million passengers. We would want those 8 million passengers to be on newer aircraft, not older aircraft. We want them to be on aircraft with high-load factors. That is what we are incentivising. That will be passengers. We are not saying that we do the airport piece and we do not have a view on the rest. We have a view on scope 3 emissions. We want those 40 million passengers at Dublin Airport. We also want an improvement in the scope 3 emissions at Dublin Airport in comparison with where they stand today. That means incentivising and encouraging airlines. This will happen. Ryanair and Aer Lingus, the two biggest airlines at Dublin Airport and in every airport in the country, are investing in their fleets and bringing in planes with newer engines. That is a good thing and it will continue. Those 8 million new passengers will be on newer aircraft that will use more sustainable aviation fuel as time goes on, and that is a good thing.

As we develop that sustainable aviation fuel.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Yes.

We are not quite there yet with sustainable aviation fuel.

On an appropriate planning framework and planning exemptions for airport infrastructure, can Mr. Jacobs see why there are so many questions yet to be decided - I accept that they are yet to be decided - on compliance with planning conditions? Does he accept that because there are so many unanswered questions, it is a bit premature to ask for exemptions from planning conditions relating to airports? Is Dublin Airport compliant with the planning conditions relating to it?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We are compliant. We will continue to be compliant until we get-----

That matter is sub judice, so we will not comment on it.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We are compliant and we continue to be until we have a new infrastructure application approved.

I suppose there are many who would say that the airport is not compliant.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I do not know if people would say that.

A judge will decide that, I presume.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

A judge may decide the matter.

I will not comment further on that.

The presentation document refers to polyfluoroalkyl substances, PFAS, which are long-lasting chemicals.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Yes.

Is the reference to PFAS in the context of the south apron or the airfield apron?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

It is a new apron we are building on the south side, I think.

Does Mr. Jacobs have a rough idea how many tonnes of contaminated soil are to be extracted there?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Soil is being extracted anyway because we are doing building works there.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We found very low levels. It is important everybody remembers PFAS are in soil in lots of different places. It is a long-life chemical that was used in putting out fires by fire services all over the world.

This was as part of training exercises-----

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Yes.

-----and it has been going on for years.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We found it in very low levels. It is not in any water and we are removing that soil anyway. We have done this fully in co-operation with Fingal County Council and the EPA. We have done the right thing here. We are being very cautious and diligent. Again, these are very low levels but if PFAS are found at any level, the soil must be removed and that is what we are doing.

The planning application for those works included the information that the DAA would be removing 80,000 tonnes, which would go Norway for remediation.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

There is not the capacity in Ireland or a location here to which we could move the soil.

Is it correct that 80,000 tonnes of soil have gone to Norway?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I would need to confirm the exact tonnage.

That was all done as part of the planning application for the construction of the new apron.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Yes.

It was a condition and part of that application.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Yes. We fully co-operated with Fingal County Council on that and the EPA was involved from the start.

Does the DAA monitor discharges to the Cuckoo Stream and into the Santry River and groundwater out of the airport?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We do so on a continuous basis.

Okay. I thank Mr. Jacobs for answering those questions.

I thank the Deputy for sticking to his time. Deputy Crowe is next.

I thank the Chair and thank Mr. Jacobs for coming to the committee. I will ask him the obvious question straight off. Are his figures based on the calendar year, 1 January to 31 December?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Yes.

Okay. I want to home in because we are very close to the Christmas season. I note from the DAA's figures from last year that from 17 December through to 4 January, an average of 45,000 passengers went through the airport per day. Pre-Covid that figure was 77,000, with 1.3 million people transiting the airport in that two-and-a-half-week window. We are in the bounce-back period. Will the cap on passenger numbers be exceeded during the Christmas season this year or perhaps next year?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

No, I do not think so. There is still-----

There needs to be certainty because it is a legally-imposed cap.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

It is, and I have said, and will keep saying, we will be compliant. Excluding transfers, where do we think we will end up this year? There are still six weeks to go and we might have two weeks of very bad weather. Travel demand is a little softer this winter, so it depends what people are booking. However, excluding the transfers, which I have explained-----

Does Mr. Jacobs think this will not happen or is he sure it will not happen?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I am sure we will be at 32 million or slightly fewer when transfers are excluded.

We have all tuned in to Sky News coming up to Christmas and seen people sleeping in sleeping bags in Heathrow Airport as they try to get home. Mr. Jacobs also indicated that he frequently has to talk to airlines. He is constantly talking about this cap and the limitations it places on his airport. Is it conceivable that on 22 or 23 December somebody trying to get home to Dublin from Melbourne to see family could be told the flight has been redirected to Edinburgh or Shannon?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Absolutely not. Families need not worry that there will be any disruption for any passenger coming home this Christmas. What we have been flagging to the airlines - and they are unhappy about it - is what is going to happen in 2024, because we will be complying with the 32 million limit on an adjusted basis until we get the green light in planning. Nobody needs to worry about this Christmas.

On the dialogue the authority has with the airlines, Mr. Jacobs said two things that are contradictory. One was in his written submission and one was not. He said sometimes he has to tell airlines they may have to look at Cork or Shannon. He then said that the airlines themselves make that decision. Is the DAA playing God to a point in deciding where airlines should go?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

No, we do not. An airport is like a hotel. We have capacity and it is up to an airline to come and use it. We cannot stop an airline applying for slots as it is a regulated process. Ultimately, if an airline wanted to go to any airport in this country or elsewhere in the world, it is its choice. There is a regulated process around scheduled flights. Non-scheduled flights are less of a priority. That includes general aviation flights and charter flights. If a new airline said it wanted to go to Dublin and bring 500,000 passengers next year, we would not encourage it because that would put us in breach of planning by pushing us over the cap.

Yes. On that, we have seen Schiphol Airport in Amsterdam roll back on its cap. The first cuts it made were on business, small jet aviation, charter flights and general aviation. Mr. Jacobs has intimated that is what will happen in Dublin. I have major concerns for small jet travel. It does not matter to Joe Soap but it does to Ireland Inc. We are trying to bring investment here. I have never been in a small jet but the people who fly on those aircraft are very important to the economy and keeping it functioning. They tell me not only is the DAA making it difficult for them, but that they have plans to expand their offering on the western flank of the airport but the DAA is saying "No" and that everything has to come through platinum services. Has the DAA already sounded the death knell for that type of aviation?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

There is a lot there. I fully agree with the Deputy. Is this difficult for them? Yes, it is. That is why we want the cap to be lifted and why we are putting in the infrastructure application. We are not making it difficult for them. The 32 million cap is making it difficult for everybody involved, so-----

Is the DAA not making them drive 4 km around the aprons of the runway just to bring them through the famous, or infamous, platinum services?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We are not making them do that; it is the only way it can be done at the moment. We are exploring other ways to do it.

Mr. Jacobs has unveiled the DAA's plan and these operators have come to him with their own plan for what they would like to develop for that type of passenger. Their plan has been stonewalled by the DAA, has it not?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Absolutely not. I met the general aviation operators about a month ago. We have a very good dialogue on how we would, in the future and as part of the infrastructure application, allow them to potentially be able to access the western part of the airfield more directly. For example, some people keep saying the underpass that was shown in the video is not needed. It is needed and one of the reasons it could be needed is to get people from the eastern side of the airfield to the western side without the drive that some but not all of them have at the moment. I fully agree with them. The DAA, the operators, Aer Lingus and Ryanair want the cap lifted. It will allow companies to operate and grow but until we get the green light on the infrastructure application, we will be managing the airport to the 32 million figure. That is the right thing to do.

Mr. Jacobs has told us the planning application will go in on 15 December. I note the DAA expects it to take a minimum of two years to pass through An Bord Pleanála and, potentially, judicial review. Is the authority trying to outrun the Government in terms of the new national aviation policy? Most of our work as a committee next year will be about looking at national aviation policy. I agree this cap is not sustainable and something has to be done about it. The only course for doing that is through planning, but it looks like the DAA is trying to outpace the Government and any policy the committee looks at. Mr. Jacobs's job, which he is doing well, is to manage the DAA group, but we must look at aviation overall. His description of Dublin Airport as Ireland's airport is a little insulting given we have Cork Airport, of which he is also the head honcho, as well as Shannon, Knock, Donegal and Waterford airports, where there is very little happening. There is a whole network of airports in Ireland.

Do not leave out Kerry or you will get in trouble.

Of course. There is also Farranfore.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I use that airport all the time.

We have Project Ireland 2040. We are not talking about a flip ending. No one wants to see a scenario where we have totally dismantled the current market share of the various airports but we certainly need to readjust it. We have 90% or thereabouts of flights going in and out through Dublin. Cork and Kerry airports, Shannon airport in my constituency, and Knock and Donegal airports are all vying for the remaining 10% market share. Dublin Airport's dominance, the 90% market share it enjoys, will only increase further if all this infrastructure is built. The DAA's angle in applying for planning has to have cognisance of Project Ireland 2040 and the national aviation strategy review. To my mind, it is taking cognisance of neither and is looking to increase the 32 million limit to 40 million.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I disagree, with great respect. We are looking to grow Cork Airport by a greater percentage than Dublin. I hope Shannon, Farranfore and all the airports grow. I am a big supporter of Irish aviation. I am not flying the Dublin-only flag. Yes, the DAA is responsible for Dublin and Cork airports, but the growth we want at Cork and the infrastructure we want there will outstrip the growth in Dublin as the population in the country rebalances. In 15 years' time, if the regional airports have greater than the 10% market share, it could be a good thing for the economy and Ireland. I do not think we are trying to do this out of pace with national strategy; we are doing it alongside that strategy. There is a real urgency around Dublin Airport because we are now turning airlines away. We are turning growth away. That means jobs and connectivity. That is why we want the planning application to be approved, and hope it will be. If it takes a couple of years, so be it, but I do not think we are at odds with national policy or aviation policy. With Dublin and Cork being the two biggest airports in the country, we are a key part of the gateway to Ireland and we want that to continue.

Mr. Jacobs's ambitions for Dublin are impressive but let me correct him again - Dublin Airport is not Ireland's airport. Ireland has a network of airports and the responsibility of the Government and this committee is to all of those airports. I am hopeful that the DAA's plans, which are impressive, fully align with Project Ireland 2040, which looks not just at environmental sustainability but at the whole idea of having foreign direct investment, tourism and everything else.

The lovely tourism model we had all the way down along that west coast for years has been relegated to quick-snap Instagram posts. Very few people are overnighting and spending their money on the west coast. This whole idea of having a lopsided country has to be addressed in Project Ireland 2040. Dublin Airport has to grow but so too have the other airports and that market share has to be recalibrated.

I have one very last question, if the Leas-Chathaoirleach allows me. It was stated that Dublin Airport is a good neighbour. We have a litany of questions emailed to us from local residents. I want to hit on one because some of their local representatives are here. When has the DAA met them? They are saying that the authority will talk about all the meetings it has with them. I have five or six emails but they can be summarised with the question, "When has Mr. Jacobs met us? We have never met this guy, and he has never attended our meetings".

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

That is not correct.

St. Margaret's The Ward noise group was one, and it would like to know.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I have not met the specific group the Deputy mentioned. Every other week, I am out in the community meeting individual households. I have met Paddy Christie, the principal at Kilcoskan National School myself.

I want to conclude by saying will Mr. Jacobs please meet that group, for God's sake? They are emailing me on the other side of the country. Mr. Jacobs is the head honcho at Dublin Airport. They have a major grievance with DAA. Please take it from there. It could save Mr. Jacobs a world of hassle because when he is going down the planning route, he will want a bit of good will from these people, not adversarial interactions. We have some of the representatives here-----

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I will meet them.

Yes, go out to meet them.

As Deputy Crowe said, there were reports that came in too.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We have members of our team constantly meeting them. They have met them on numerous occasions.

I am asking Mr. Jacobs to meet them.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I will meet them myself.

Okay. I thank Mr. Jacobs for his time.

It is good to have that commitment. I thank Deputy Crowe. I am up next myself, and I thank Mr. Jacobs for coming in. We were very anxious to bring him in, in light of the cap. I raised the point in the Seanad with Senator Doherty that the last thing a parent wants is to not be able to see their child coming in. Mr. Jacobs said he would manage the cap, stay within the limits and so on. However, I am little bit concerned. There is lots of wonderful stuff in this. It is a 43-slide PowerPoint with video, and a lot of very impressive work has gone into it. I want to acknowledge that and all of the good work that happened over the summer. That is all acknowledged.

My concern is that growth in Dublin Airport from last year to this year is in and around 4 million or 5 million.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

About that, yes.

That is from last year, from around 27 million to approximately 32 million. If the same level of growth happened - which would not even be the same percentage growth because the figure is bigger and it will be a smaller percentage - we would be looking at 37 million next year. We would be looking at nearly 40 million next year. At the moment, we are talking about the planning process to get to 40 million being agreed, if everything went well by the end of 2025. One could be talking about building for 40 million when one is almost, if things did not change, at 40 million already. Is there not a need to be looking at 50 million or 60 million? I am not trying to promote Aer Lingus' ambitions or Ryanair's ambitions; I am just asking the question. When the M50 was built, it was not built to the size it needed to be and it had to be retrofitted afterwards.

I wonder about the level of ambition. This is not any kind of climate change denial but we are talking about the population increasing. Everybody acknowledges it will. If the economy goes okay, people travel and want to travel. We are an island. We have said all of that. We are the transport committee looking at aviation. Yes, it would be great if some of the traffic went out of Cork and Shannon, and equally Kerry, Knock, Donegal and so on, and even Waterford if it gets up and going with regard to scheduled or chartered flights.

I am concerned that Dublin Airport will almost be turning away business as soon as it gets the permission for 40 million, assuming that it does. It will be a bit like Berlin or somewhere, where the day the airport opens, it is full, and looking then to go to 60 million. Do we not need to be looking at additions to either Dublin Airport's campus or indeed the western campus? When the former Minister, Shane Ross, was there, he commissioned the Oxford Economics report about a third terminal. Has Mr. Jacobs seen that report? Is he aware of that report and what is in it? Did it recommend a third terminal or not? I know Mr. Jacobs has ambitions for the tunnel underneath and equally the western side of the campus for general aviation. However, I am a bit concerned that all of this work is focused towards 40 million. If there was no cap, Dublin Airport could be at 40 million next year.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I do not think we will be at 40 million next year.

It could be 36 million or 37 million.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I also do not think we will be at that number. The difference between last year and this year is that we were still having the return to travel post pandemic. That has now already calmed down a bit. If we did not have a cap, what number is out there potentially? We could be looking at 34 million but I would not go as high as 36 million or 37 million.

The airport is nearly at 34 million this year.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

When one excludes the transfers, we will be complying, and it will bring us in at 32 million or slightly under when transfers are excluded this year. I do not think the return to travel and the growth from this year to next year will be what it was from last year to this year.

I want to answer the Leas-Chathoirleach's question on whether 40 million is enough and if we should take a longer-term view. We probably should and that should be part of the national aviation policy discussion. If one takes an airport like Abu Dhabi International Airport - we run the duty free there, and I was there recently - that is an airport with currently around 26 million passengers but it can take up to 45 million. With regard to infrastructure and planning in Ireland, yes, we should take a longer-term view and ask when we will get to the 40 million figure. We think we probably will get to 40 million by about 2028 or 2029. By the time we build that airport for 40 million passengers, we would nearly need to be in with another application asking where it goes next. That is a topic for another day, however.

Regarding this third terminal on the western side, what are Mr. Jacobs's thoughts on that? I am not talking about the land ownership. Say the DAA owned all of that land, at the moment, would it be thinking about putting facilities over there? It is talking about having new stands in that area, and general aviation. I might touch on the cap with reference to Deputy Crowe's point. Surely an executive jet with two people, while it counts as a movement, does not count as very many passengers in terms of the cap? If we take, for example, an Airbus A380 or A350 or a wide-bodied plane is coming in to do a chartered flight for, for example, the UEFA Europa League final, which is in Dublin next year, with the greatest of respect I do not think many people coming to the UEFA Europa League final will really want to fly into Cork or Shannon and have to travel to Dublin. If they are here for the weekend, they will want to fly in and out of Dublin. Is Mr. Jacobs saying that those flights are likely to be refused, negotiated out of the system or whatever?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

There is a regulated process and within the regulated process, scheduled commercial flights take priority. If charter operators and private jets say they have nothing in the schedule but they just want to come to the airport, it will be in a different place. We might be saying that they cannot do that. We currently say that to some people operating private jets, even with a small number of passengers on board.

On the western side of the airport, and the idea of having a third terminal there, I think a third terminal at Dublin Airport is 20 million passengers away and 20 years away. Ultimately, a third terminal, if it is developed, will be alongside the existing two terminals that we have, not on the western part of the airfield. Anyone taking that view should consider public transport. We want to go faster getting to the eastern front door that we have today at the airport. Getting public transport to the far side of the airport would take decades. For me, we do not need to talk about a third terminal yet. That is really when one is looking at Dublin Airport having 60 million passengers. It would be alongside the two existing terminals because that is where public transport will be.

What did the report the former Minister, Shane Ross, got say about that particular terminal?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

It said that a third terminal is not needed until we get to those kind of numbers. The two existing terminals-----

We have kind of all agreed that we should be looking at the medium term because my concern - and it is a reasonably valid concern based on the bounceback - is that if the airport has gone up 5 million in one year and is close to the 32 million cap, we may get even 4 million next year. Mr. Jacobs is saying that demand is softer but I am not sure how much evidence there is for that.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I do not know. I cannot predict what the global factors will be. We can take a view on the global economy and different airlines-----

Mr. Jacobs's point is that caps do not work. They have not worked in Schiphol and they have not worked in other places. It is likely that Ireland Inc. will lose out rather than Shannon and Cork airports gaining from a cap that will have airlines saying they are coming to Europe but will not go to Ireland any more or else that they will base aircraft in other parts of the world where they can generate more activity and profits. As Mr. Jacobs knows well about Ryanair, that is what any airline will do. A plane is very expensive, and the more money it makes, the better, and if it can make more money out of an airport other than Dublin, off it goes.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Yes, and those airports are more likely to be other hub airports.

In other countries?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Yes, in other countries. If, in theory, it worked out that people said they cannot get into Dublin, they want to fly to Ireland and they will go to Cork, Shannon and elsewhere, that would be great but that is not how it works. When we talk to the airlines - and members can talk to the airlines themselves - generally they say Dublin Airport is a hub, and the regional airports are regional airports. I want them all to grow.

It is in all our interests that people come to Ireland Inc., regardless of where they land but yes, we should be trying to spread it better than we do at the moment. My concern is that the board of DAA - and Mr. Jacobs is the chief executive who presenting to and dealing with the board - is really not looking beyond 40 million.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We are putting a planning application in for 40 million. Are we looking beyond 40 million? Yes we are. We take a long-term view.

As to whether Dublin Airport will be submitting a planning application after this one for a bigger number, of course, we will do so at a point in time. I generally agree though. As to whether we should take a longer term view in Ireland on big critical infrastructure like this, that would be good but we are putting in a planning application that we want to get approved. We have gone through the pre-planning process with Fingal. Forty million will give us the capacity to be able to match-----

That is, more or less, a two-year process, excluding objections. Is December 2025 the earliest the DAA can get that permission?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Probably. If it was sooner that would be great, but that is probably the realistic timeframe we are working to.

I am being somewhat critical but it is to complement the recent announcement that Air Canada is increasing its service by 50%. JetBlue is coming in. American Airlines has increased by 144%. WestJet is flying to Halifax. All this new business is coming in. The DAA is saying it is not really encouraging these people. It seems they are coming anyway or else the DAA is encouraging them. It is one or the other.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

If you take those ones that the Leas-Chathaoirleach has listed, there is a long process in terms of an airline deciding that it is going to-----

They are all announced. They all were not in last year's figures. They all will be in next year's figures, plus population growth. I am wondering why Mr. Jacobs thinks demand next year will not go up similar to what it did this year with all these extra airlines, all these extra flights, plus Ryanair's ability to drop aircraft one place or the other. If Dublin had the capacity, I am sure they would be here.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Now Ryanair has announced that it will be removing some winter capacity, which it has done. Let us see what they want to do next year. As part of managing capacity to 32 million in line with the planning, we have taken away a growth incentive. Some airlines will not like that and they might decide to move aircraft elsewhere, and that might be the decision that Ryanair would make.

All the routes that the Leas-Chathaoirleach listed are fantastic. That is new connectivity for Ireland to places in North America and Canada that we have not had before. They are small numbers, in terms of the passengers and in terms of the number of flights, but it is good connectivity. It is great for business and it is great for the diaspora in those parts of the US and Canada.

Even though I am in the Chair, I will not manipulate the time. I will make two points, and I might come back in later if we have time.

On the private jet issue, in terms of numbers, I do not see why the DAA would be cutting that off. It is minimal. Twenty jets would probably be the size of a flight from Donegal.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We do not want to, but we have to flag that. Managing to the cap, if the demand is greater than that, means we have to make choices.

My final point is on public transport access. I know people who have posted on Twitter or X, whatever it is called, who were trying to get the Aircoach at 4 a.m. They dropped their daughter down to the Talbot Hotel in Stillorgan at 4 a.m. and the bus driver said that the service was pre-book only, the bus was full and they should get a cab. Equally, as Mr. Jacobs will be aware, people post that they came out of Dublin Airport and there were no taxis and the buses were all full. What is Mr. Jacobs doing with the public transport operators to get greater capacity from every part of Ireland? The DAA makes lots of money out of car parking but more people can go by bus. The cap is all about land-side access. This is the problem. What is Mr. Jacobs doing to solve it?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We are working closely with the NTA and all the bus operators to try to get new routes added. New bus routes have been added. I think I gave the number the last time I was here. Twelve new bus routes have been added. We want more and more bus capacity to come on stream. It looks like Ireland has got over the greatest difficulty on buses and bus drivers. That looks like it is getting better going forward and I hope that continues.

I agree. We want more people taking the bus to the airport. As part of that, we will work with the NTA and the bus operators in order that they provide greater service frequency and add new places. One still cannot get a bus from Castleknock to Dublin Airport. We should have connectivity to all places in around Dublin and beyond, because a lot of people want to come to the airport that way. We fully support it and will do everything we can.

A key part of the infrastructure application that the Leas-Chathaoirleach will have seen is the bigger bus station. Dublin Airport is already the biggest bus station in the country and we want that to get significantly bigger in the years ahead so that people say, for example, that they are going away to Malaga for a week and will take the bus. I do not think enough people make that decision today and we certainly want them too.

I thank Mr. Jacobs for all of that. We wish him well in all the DAA's future developments.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach.

I thank Mr. Jacobs for his presentation.

I will go back over some of what Mr. Jacobs said. In relation to the cap on 32 million passengers, it is a little confusing. I understand that Mr. Jacobs is not counting the transfers within the airport. However, these are people who are in the airport. It seems that is a selective interpretation on the DAA's behalf. Everybody else is counting them, bar the DAA.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

That is the way we count them. The cap relates to surface access. That is very clear. We are taking out the people who are not coming to the airport via surface access.

But those people are still in queues. Those people are still collecting bags. Those people are still doing everything else in the airport as everyone else that comes to you.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

The planning restriction does not relate to that. It relates to people coming to the terminals via surface access so it is about the surface access restrictions if passengers transfer in. This is a model that is followed in other airports around the world. That is why we are right to exclude the transfer passengers. They do not come to the airport in a vehicle. That is the interpretation that we are taking. That is our view on it. That is fully in line with the planning that we have. That is fully in line with the restriction that exists.

Does Mr. Jacobs think that will be challenged?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

It may be, but we are confident in our position that that is the right and appropriate interpretation of the planning restriction.

Mr. Jacobs mentioned that the traffic that comes to the airport is something the DAA does not have any control over. He said that the DAA is like a hotel in that it organises the facilities and everybody else decides where they come to. When hotels get full or near capacity, they co-operate with other hotels in their region, in their area or whatever to ensure they can provide services for everyone. How much such co-operation is happening with the other airports? Mr. Jacobs has said that he can see a stage where jets and certain flights may be restricted if Dublin Airport is getting close to the 32 million cap. Is Mr. Jacobs also trying to work with other airports to ensure there is a share of the growth that happens because that is something that will clearly need to happen?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

That naturally happens in airports in Ireland. We do not run Shannon Airport - we run Cork and Dublin - but one does have co-operation. For the college football game between Navy and Notre Dame in Dublin, a lot of private jets came in. A lot of them came into Shannon, a lot came into Cork and a lot came into Dublin because we could not accommodate them all. One does have that type of co-operation.

While we are capped waiting for the green light on planning, a small number of flights will go to the regional airports in Ireland. A big number will not, because that is the difference between a national hub airport and the regional airports. There is co-operation, principally between Dublin and Cork because they are the two airports that we operate, but we talk to Shannon on a regular basis and we will continue to do so. We have a good relationship with Shannon and the other airports.

Mr. Jacobs mentioned Cork as an area and gave a specific portion of a slide over to the development there. I welcome that. It is good to see. Cork is not at capacity. It does not have a cap. It does not have a limit. I wonder how much effort is being put in to develop more routes from and into Cork.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

A huge amount of effort is being put in. We have a very good team in Cork Airport. Within that, we have a business development team. They would, for example, have been at the recent Routes global aviation event, where you go and talk to airlines and try to convince them to come to your airport. We were there and we will continue to do that.

We will be announcing new exciting routes coming to Cork in the near future, which is really, really good, and we will continue to work hard on that. As I said, Cork will have its biggest ever year for international traffic, which is really, really good. Ultimately, I want Cork Airport to grow by 40% or more in the same period while Dublin is growing by 25%.

Is transatlantic part of that?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I hope it will be. We are absolutely ready for that. We have had initial conversations with some potential transatlantic carriers. In the immediate future, year-round connectivity to big European cities is better for Cork. The next step probably involves focusing on capital cities that you can fly to from Cork in the summer and the winter - all year round - with greater frequencies but transatlantic services will absolutely be considered at some point.

For me, the magic number is when Cork Airport is a 5 million passenger airport because then it is really a self-sufficient airport. When Cork Airport is a 5 million passenger airport, I would be very disappointed if there was not transatlantic connectivity within that. That would be great for the south of Ireland. That would be great for Cork Airport. It ties in with the Government's vision for 2040 in terms of rebalancing the population and everything that goes with that in the country.

On a positive note, I want to commend the work of the disability support staff in Cork Airport. Somebody recently contacted me about that, and how good an experience it was for a person with a disability going through the airport, as I am sure it is in the other airports as well.

In regard to the development and growth, the growth happens within the airport. Mr. Jacobs has responsibility for that but it has an impact on everything else around it. It has an impact on the roads, on the rail, on transport infrastructure and on all other aspects. Mr. Jacobs mentioned that he calls Dublin Airport, "the airport of Ireland." One goes to it either on a bus or a taxi. There is no rail. There is no metro. That is a huge problem we have in the main airport in the country.

It is something that we need to recognise.

Mr. Jacobs also mentioned the other issue with regard to sustainable aviation fuel and the work that has been done on that. At what stage does he think we will have sustainable aviation fuel or will we wait until legislation forces it to become the main source of fuel for our aircraft?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

That is a tough one for aviation. I think it will be at least a decade before we have it in those volumes. The airlines have ambitious targets in terms of the percentage of their fuel consumption that they want to be sustainable aviation fuel but the production of it really needs to ramp up. As to when sustainable aviation fuel is going to be the main fuel or only fuel that is used, that is probably at least a decade away. The airlines might be best to answer that one themselves.

Let us say it is 15 years away. The current cost of it is almost ten times the cost of standard aviation fuel, or that is what we have heard at this committee in the past. This tells us that the cost of travel is going to increase substantially as a consequence.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

The airlines are constantly flagging that as they move to sustainable aviation fuel, airfares may go up. As to whether that will happen, I do not know. I used to work in an airline. I definitely think it is going to be a more expensive fuel. Will that get passed on in the form of higher airfares? That is traditionally what happens and I would expect that to be the case.

If the cost of travelling increases, will the numbers settle down and will it have an impact on growth? The DAA is projecting all of these growth figures based on where we are now and on the cost of travelling today. As I said, the committee was told that the cost of aviation fuel would be ten times what it is now. Even if it only increases fivefold, it will still have a huge impact and will probably mean that the price of a ticket goes up by double or treble. That will surely have an impact on the growth forecasts.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

It could but it might not. If we look at the demand for travel in the past year and where airfares were, demand was high and airfares were even steeper in terms of increase. It really depends on where you are. In 2008, when we had the economic crisis here, demand for travel went down because people had less money to spend but, at the moment, airfares are up and demand is up. It really depends.

I still think we are right to have the infrastructure application up to 40 million passengers and it may even be followed by another one at some point in the future. The world will always travel. I hope the airlines get there faster than ten years with regard to sustainable aviation fuel and I hope that it is not a multiple of ten or five in terms of what it is going to do to their operating costs because that will push up airfares. No matter how high airfares go, people will always travel and they will always pay a certain airfare. The first flight I ever took was from Cork to London and it was £380. What happens if we go back there, for whatever reason? Is it just that ordinary people get to travel less? That is not a good thing or good for connectivity, so I hope it does not happen. I think the world will continue to travel. Irish people will want to travel and people will want to keep coming to Ireland. Airfares will definitely go up a bit with sustainable aviation fuel and I hope the airlines crack it faster in terms of getting the volumes they need.

Surely the industry has done some forecasting around this. Surely it is not just me or Mr. Jacobs hoping. Surely, studies have been done.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Studies have been done but, at the same time, if we take the situation today, there are 14,000 new aircraft on order and there have never been more new aircraft on order from the airlines. I have heard that IATA, the representative body of airlines globally, is planning to double capacity in the next couple of decades. The airlines are very bullish on fleet replacement and very bullish on adding new capacity. At the same time, there is not one new airport being built anywhere in Europe and for the next two decades, we might see no new airport being built in Europe. There was talk of Montijo near Lisbon and Lelystad near Schiphol being added, but I think there will be a restriction on airport capacity. The airlines are certainly quite bullish on adding capacity; they have had a very good summer and their airfares and profitability are very strong. It is probably a better question for them as to where they see demand going. We will still need to have a bigger airport because there is clearly demand beyond 32 million at the moment, and that is why we are putting in the infrastructure application. I hope that, economically, things are positive, and I hope people continue to travel and that we can do that in a way that also brings down emissions.

I will bring Deputy Kenny back in later if there is time but I am conscious of the time available given so many members are offering. I call Deputy Lowry. I know he experienced a delay but it is great that he made it.

I have been in my car for two hours in a traffic jam. I welcome Mr. Jacobs. I am surprised that he is the Lone Ranger today and he does not have his chairman or other people with him. Even Michael O'Leary would not try that in here.

I have been through the airport on a number of occasions this year. We had Mr. Jacobs in here a number of times last year, taking heavy criticism about the organisation, in particular in regard to security. I have to say that my experience has been that it has greatly improved, it is fast and efficient and the people have been very courteous to consumers. That should be acknowledged.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Thank you.

I want to ask about the capacity issue. I do not see the logic of this. The airport is a major piece of infrastructure and is of huge importance to the economy, not just of Dublin but the Irish economy in general. To have this situation where we have a cap on capacity does not make sense, in my view. Mr. Jacobs' presentation states that the cap on capacity means that the DAA has to discontinue transit flights from the end of October and limit the pricing incentives for growth, which obviously impacts and discourages the airlines from increasing their growth and development, and there is a proposed suspension of slot applications for ad hoc passenger movements from early December. There is also the impact on business jets and on sports and special event charters. Perhaps Mr. Jacobs will elaborate on some of those, particularly in regard to sports and special events charters, which are a huge source of funds coming into the country. What kinds of limitations will be placed on them?

With regard to the 32 million figure, obviously, it is a condition of the planning authority, and the DAA is going back in next month to increase that by 8 million to 40 million. Did the DAA select the 40 million on the basis that it is the ultimate capacity of the two existing terminals, terminal 1 and terminal 2, combined? If it is a combination of both, can Mr. Jacobs break down the capacity in terminal 2 now and the additional capacity that there will be in terminal 1? I recall well when terminal 2 was built and we had a huge outcry saying it was going to be a white elephant and that it would never be productive.

Poor Noel Dempsey was the Minister at the time and he was getting awful abuse about it.

He was getting rapped on a regular basis. That brings me to the DAA’s projections. Mr. Jacobs is saying “by 2030”, which is a seven-year forward planning programme. I do not think that is the proper way to approach this. The DAA needs a much more long-term plan for Dublin Airport. The DAA’s application next year to increase from 32 million to 40 million is going to take a minimum of two or three years to get through the process, and it will then be into a five-year plan for the remainder. We need to have a serious look at long-term planning.

We have read a lot and heard a lot about the bank of land that is available. Mr. Jacobs might explain exactly where that rests or where the DAA rests in regard to the purchase of that. It makes obvious sense to anyone looking in from the outside that this land bank should be purchased and held by the DAA for further expansion. I am certain that with the explosion in aviation travel, the 40 million is going to be reached rather quickly but we have no forward planning for the years ahead.

There are some other issues that I have raised previously. First, car parking is a massive issue at Dublin Airport. People come up from the country to travel and they cannot get a space at the airport and are expected to park in the city centre, with all the cost of that, and to then get from the city or the surrounding area to the airport. People resent that.

A second issue is hotel accommodation. I turned the sod for the Great Southern Hotel, which is now the Radisson Hotel, in 1995, which tells us how long ago it is. I do not understand why the DAA is not interested in looking after its consumers by way of ensuring that hotel accommodation is available.

The DAA has the land out there. If it is not going to build a hotel, which I can understand because that is not the business it is in, and lease it, or else provide the grounds for an operator to come in and build and own the hotel, it needs to do something about accommodation. It is a serious issue. It is fine for us living in Ireland because we understand it, but when visitors come to Ireland, the first thing they say when they arrive is that there is no rail link or metro to the airport. As for looking for a bus, you would not want to be waiting in the rain for it. Mr. Jacobs mentioned earlier that there needs to be a far higher frequency of buses from the city to the airport, and there need to be far more taxies at the airport. Likewise, buses need to run all night long. The image of Ireland is tarnished every time people have a bad experience at Dublin Airport, and they are having bad experiences there. It is all within our control if we just do something about it and take causative action on it.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

On buses and taxis, I agree it could be better. Generally, in my view, people are having a good experience at Dublin Airport, although the bus and taxi experience can improve. Approximately 90% of people get a taxi within ten minutes, but the waiting time tends to increase if there is a gig in the 3 Arena or a big sporting occasion, when there is generally a shortage of taxis in Dublin. We have actively worked with taxi drivers to get more supply coming to the airport and that has worked, but we want to get more. We are looking at improving the areas where people wait for a taxi in T1 and T2 and that is part of the infrastructure application, and we are actively encouraging greater frequencies of buses and a better network of buses. I fully agree that can improve. People coming to the airport on buses is good for sustainability and we want also to further improve the provision of taxis. The international benchmark is the transport options you have when you arrive in Madrid or another capital city, and we need to improve that. It includes the airport but also beyond the airport, which we do not control. I hope it will improve.

On hotels, I also agree with the Deputy. We are not in the hotel business but we are looking at another hotel being added. We want to have an expansion of the hotel facilities because there is consumer demand for people to fly in and stay near to the airport because it is easier to get home the next day. I fully agree we want to add hotel capacity and that is generally required in Ireland.

The split in passengers between T1 and T2 is about 55% or 60% to 40% or 45%, respectively. It varies between the seasons but that is typically what it is. T1 is the busier terminal.

On the plan to go from 32 million passengers to 40 million, that ties in with Fingal's development plan. It is a number that will secure the connectivity and jobs and give us what we need at Dublin Airport until 2035 or something like that, but we will look beyond that. To clarify, on the cap, we are counting every single passenger, but we are just not double-counting the transfers. In my earlier example, if you come from Birmingham to Dublin and then go to JFK, we count that as one passenger because it is someone flying on one trip. We are not counting them once as coming from Birmingham and then again for their journey to JFK. We are just removing the double count. Every passenger is being counted in our compliance with the 32 million cap.

On car parking, we need more spaces. The Quick Park site is being determined by the competition and regulatory review. We hope that will be decided in our favour, which will give us an additional 6,000 spaces. If that happens, I do not think we will have a problem. We manage car parks quite well but we will need those extra spaces. I hope we will get a positive decision there, which will give us those extra spaces in time for next Easter and the summer.

On the land bank, we want it. We have made an offer for the land and that offer stands. Whether the owners come back to us on that offer, that is up to them, but our offer stands. They have said they have had multiple offers, and I read recently there was talk of going for planning on a third terminal. That would take a long time. It would take us a long time to get planning for a third terminal on the western part of the airfield. For someone else to do it, it will take even longer, but we are definitely interested in the land, which is why we have made a serious offer for it. Ultimately, we are the best owner for the land, but I reiterate that must be at the right price. We do not see it as being absolutely necessary and strategic but we see it as tactically very useful for us. We would put stands there and extend an apron there and might do a few additional other things, but we want the land and that is why we have made an offer for it.

On what I was asking about terminals 1 and 2, the DAA has made, or is about to make, an application to increase the capacity from 32 million to 40 million. Will that additional capacity of eight million be found in terminal 2 or in a combination of both terminals?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Both, and it is not too dissimilar to the current pattern. There will probably be a bit more added in terminal 2 than in terminal 1. There is huge demand. If we compare the places you can now fly to in the US from Dublin compared with ten years ago, who would have though it? You can fly to Dallas year round, and people would have said that would never work. We used to have a route network that was just Boston, Chicago and New York. We want to add more places.

Will that bring the airport to the maximum capacity of both terminals?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Yes, but as guided by planning. It will be 40 million across the two terminals.

What is the maximum number the airport can take in terminals 1 and 2?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Does the Deputy mean currently or with the new buildings?

With the new buildings for which the DAA is going in for planning.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

That will be 40 million split across the two terminals, slightly differently from how it is split today.

Will that bring those two terminals to maximum capacity?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

No, I do not think so. There is an operating capacity and there will be a planning capacity.

I am asking about the operating capacity.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

The operating capacity could be slightly higher than that. We will have more stands, more piers and more space within the terminals, and we could possibly operate to a number higher than the 40 million, but we will get it approved to 40 million. That is what we are seeking.

The point I am trying to get to is that Mr. Jacobs is saying that that is the airport's operational capacity and it is going to achieve it in the next couple of years. Does that not highlight the fact there is an additional need for a new terminal at Dublin Airport?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

No, I do not think so at this point.

What about in five or ten years?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Probably not. We will need just a further extension of the two terminals. It might be called a third terminal, but it might involve just coming into T1 and T2. I think it will be a further extension of the existing two terminals rather than what we would call a third terminal somewhere else. Again, I do not think a third terminal somewhere else, such as on the western side of the airfield, is on the cards. The best place to put it would be where people could access it, and that will be on the eastern side of the campus, alongside T1 and T2.

We had a briefing from the Department of Transport on the capacity constraint. It is not really about the buildings. Mr. Jacobs referred earlier to the building now being different from what it was in 2008 because we now do self-check-ins, bag drop and all the other things we used to have to queue for, which people can now do at home, whether by printing their boarding pass, having it on their phone, dropping their bag in advance and so on. The big 32 million question was about getting into and out of the airport, as opposed to what happens once you go through the door of the building, let alone the difference between landside and airside. Mr. Jacobs is saying the DAA is going to do all this work to handle 40 million, but it is really on the land side that the DAA needs to improve capacity. How is it doing that?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

That is about increasing the size and operation of the bus station and being ready for metro north. The transport options are a key part of it, as are the roads coming to the airport-----

Car parking as well.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Car parking is part of it. If we look at the past five years, more people are coming to the airport on buses, which is good, and that will really accelerate. We will continue to work to increase the options in that regard. Specifically, however, surface access is what is driving------

The buildings themselves could handle 40 million or 50 million people, but that is not the issue. It is about getting them onto the campus.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I do not think it could handle 40 million or 50 million. It could handle a higher number than the 32 million, but the 32 million is-----

With the additions the DAA is applying for, however, the building could handle more than 40 million. It is about getting them into and out of the campus.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Let us wait and see what the planning judgment is.

The current cap is about surface access. We would be able to operate to a higher number, but let us see what the planning decision is that we hope we will get-----

The point is the buildings could handle more. If the DAA gets permission, when all these new buildings are built, then the airport could probably handle more than 40 million. It is about making sure of the ability to get those 40 million people on and off the campus.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Yes.

I welcome Mr. Jacobs and thank him for his presentation. Does he accept that the airport is currently creaking at the seams airside?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Does airside mean on the airfield?

On the airfield.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

No. The airfield is busy, but it is in most airports. It is interesting to go to the tower and look down on it. I talk to AirNav Ireland, ANI, which is busy with vehicles and aircraft. Safety is first and foremost at every single airport so I would not say "creaking at the seams".

It is about the user experience of those who have to use the south gates on a regular basis. These are people who come in late at night from a long way away and, notwithstanding paying high air fares, do not have tunnel access or an air bridge. Ireland is renowned for its damp weather conditions, so it is not a good user experience. Mr. Jacobs said that Dublin Airport is an airport for Ireland. I put it to him that it is damaging to the image of Ireland to have somebody who paid for a first-class ticket having to walk a considerable distance in the rain, in the morning or evening, to get to the terminal.

From a business perspective, DAA is sweating the asset. I think it has over-sweated the asset. Frankly, the cap is appropriate, not just for the landside but from an airside capacity perspective as well. The DAA will have to look more broadly than the airport when it comes to the landside. If Mr. Jacobs takes himself onto the M50 - I do not know where he lives, but I am sure he has to use the motorway or some of his staff do - he will see it is at capacity or close to it. TII has introduced what is effectively a demand-management perspective to reduce speed limits at certain times to manage the capacity, and there are proposals and talks about having a more progressive approach to charging for use at certain times of the day. That says the supporting infrastructure outside the airport is creaking as well.

I cannot fathom why there has not been more joined-up thinking regarding roads and airports from a State perspective, which looks at the latent capacity we have in our other airports. Rather than building more capacity at Dublin Airport, we should build a high-speed rail link that connects Dublin Airport to Dublin city centre and runs on to the city of Limerick and Shannon Airport. That is done in other countries. It used to be the policy of a previous EU transport Commissioner. It made complete sense.

I get Mr. Jacobs's point that Dublin Airport is important for Ireland, but this is about the way the DAA and the policy are going. He said that people from the 32 counties are using Dublin Airport. They do not need to. They should not need to, if the cap were introduced appropriately, because a lot more could be done in the south. I listened to Mr. Jacobs previously, and it is a position taken by others, say that we will lose these flights to Ireland in the same way Schiphol lost to Paris. Will we lose to Manchester or Edinburgh? I am not so sure about that. They are not exactly major hubs. Manchester is certainly not and Edinburgh, to a large extent, is not either. Let us not forget we are still an island. Somebody who lands in Schiphol can get from there to Paris by train. In that instance, it may be a more favourable comparison.

I have to believe that if Dublin, Cork and Shannon airports worked in much closer co-operation, some of the pressure on Dublin Airport could be reduced. There is effectively a self-fulfilling prophecy at the moment, where if there is more demand we have to build more and if we build more we will have to increase more. There is no competition with Dublin, quite frankly. No other airport can compete with it. That is a fact, as regards the size and scale it can do. If we thought about the passenger and the economic dividend throughout the country, we could have a much more joined-up approach to the management of our current asset. Some 3 million or 4 million more passengers to the likes of Shannon Airport would make a huge difference to the development of the region. It would reduce the number of people who have to travel from the mid-west to Dublin to get access to other parts of Europe. It would help to balance things and take away some of the pressure on the landside of Dublin Airport.

Dublin Airport can have its development plan as well. Dublin will grow as a city, but the regions can grow as well. I would like to hear Mr. Jacobs's thoughts on that. I recognise that Dublin Airport now has to get rid of some of its transit passengers, but the DAA is still bidding for business to service aircraft, which need to land for technical stops in Ireland, at Dublin Airport. No passengers are either getting off or getting on.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We are no longer doing that.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

That is one of the choices we made in managing capacity. We stopped that.

Where were those aircraft transferred to? Was it Cork?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

No. That is up to the airline. In this case, the airline chose to go to Fiumicino Airport in Rome.

Has the DAA looked at removing some of the cargo activity from Dublin?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

It is kind of up to the cargo operators to decide where they want to fly into. Flying cargo into regional airports to then put it on diesel trucks to go back up to Dublin where the population live-----

It does not affect the cap either.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

It does not affect the cap but-----

That is why the M50 and the tunnel were built. A lot of the cargo goes south anyway.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Some cargo companies will choose to fly into regional airports because they will then have a shorter onward journey to make but that is up to them. On the other points-----

No, it is not up to them. It does not need to be up to them. If the DAA says, "No, sorry. We cannot take you", they will have to go to the next location. They will not land it in Schiphol.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We are not saying that to them. They are not part of the cap.

I suggest that the DAA should manage its demand in a way that looked at the overall piece by taking cargo flights out of Dublin, say it is closed for cargo business and that the next business it will concentrate on are the passengers that need to be in Dublin. It will then be able to get a little more. If the DAA said to Fingal County Council that it was getting rid of its cargo business, that would take trucks and cars off the M50. Why does the DAA not offer something like that, do a deal with Shannon, and let the cargo activity go through there?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

There is a lot there. I will address the cargo issue first. To be clear, cargo flights are not part of the cap because the cap is around passengers-----

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

-----and not boxes.

If we accept that there is activity on the landside with trucks on the M50, which is one of the constraints that is concerning to Fingal, and the DAA says it is getting rid of all the cargo, then it might get-----

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I think we still end up with the trucks on the M50. Much of the population that is ordering stuff on Amazon and so on is still Dublin based. We will still end up with those trucks coming.

I suggest it would be quicker to get from Shannon Airport to Amazon's warehouse on the N7 than it would be to get from Dublin Airport across the M50 on many days.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

To that particular warehouse, maybe. Generally, however, I do not agree that moving cargo to another regional airport for those boxes to go on diesel-powered trucks to come back up to Dublin is efficient or the right thing from a sustainability perspective.

On the point the Senator made about the south gates, a key part of what members saw on the video is about changing the south gates. I have flown there and have said to the team that we definitely need to work on those gates. We are also saying to Aer Lingus that it is not a good experience, if it is raining. We are looking at things we could do in the meantime to improve that experience. Ultimately, as per the infrastructure planning application, passengers would go through terminal 2 and, instead of going out to the south gates, that long walk and then the bus, they would just be going left to a new pier. That will ultimately solve it but, in the meantime, we are looking to improve that part. I agree it is something that could be-----

I have a short amount of time. Is Mr. Jacobs saying he is happy enough to maintain the cap at 32 million until what the DAA is now seeking planning permission for is constructed?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I am not happy with the 32 million cap-----

But you accept you will abide by that.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We will comply with it. I wish it did not exist.

When is the DAA planning to complete the work that would allow it to lift the cap from 32 million to whatever the demand might be? Where does he see that being pegged at?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I think two years. I hope sooner.

The DAA expect to have planning permission, and that work completed and ready to take passengers, within two years.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We would be-----

Sorry, but Mr. Jacobs said that the DAA will not get planning permission for two years.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

That is what I mean.

The DAA cannot build anything until it gets permission.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

No, we cannot build-----

If the planning permission were granted, would it raise the cap immediately or from the time the buildings were built?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

If permission is granted, it will raise the cap once we start the work.

Is it once you start or complete the work?

I suspect that could not be the case. I suspect that it would have to be commensurate with the completion of-----

We should not anticipate the planning authority's ruling. We had a presentation last week which was quite useful. Deputy Smith was there as well. There is all this talk about the buildings but the cap is all about how one gets on and off the campus. It does not seem to make reference to-----

I accept that. I started my comments by saying that the airside is creaking. I use the airport more than I would like to. If I could use Shannon more, I certainly would, and I do when I can.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

To clarify, what does the Senator mean by the airside?

The stands I talked about at the south gate and otherwise being parked away from the buildings and people having to walk. The stories I hear are that it is less than optimal.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

In my opinion as an airport operator, I do not think it is creaking. I can think of many other airports, like Gatwick for example, where the situation is worse. We are not running the airport that badly

You are not allowed to make charges against anyone who is not here to defend themselves.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

To be fair, they are doing a great job. There are always things that could be improved in a large operation. The south gate is one issue we are looking at improving. The improvement we want to make will ultimately come as a result of the infrastructure application - the video members saw. In the meantime, until we get that and we will not do anything until we get the green light on the infrastructure application, we will look at how we can improve the experience for passengers, covering them from bad weather. We might look at the possibility of making it a shorter walk or by exploring bus options. To clarify, we will not do anything until we get a green light on planning. I think planning permission will take two years from when we submit the application.

The DAA has known for some time and has been very concerned about the standard of terminal 1 at the airport. I have seen some improvements in catering options and some other things. What plans does the DAA have to improve terminal 1 customer experience?

Senator Dooley mentioned overcrowding. This has long been a concern of mine. When you go through airport security, heading down towards the location of Starbucks, the corridor is very cramped when the airport is busy. Is anything being done to address this?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We have made improvement in terminal 1. We have had a good summer and a good year operationally. We want to make further improvements. C3 security machines will be fitted in Cork and both terminals in Dublin and the new mezzanine floor in terminal 1. At the moment there are restaurants there but we will be sending passengers up there because eventually, we will have security lanes there. The fast track lane might be moved there and a new lounge will be built. In the new C3 security lanes, passengers will not have to take liquids out of their bags. This will be a big improvement in terminal 1. The new mezzanine floor will take some of the passengers up there and drop people down close to where Starbucks is located in terminal 1.

The news of the C3 machines is interesting. This is new information for me. There will be another floor of airport screening available. Is that correct?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

There is already an escalator up to the mezzanine level and passengers will go through security there and perhaps to the lounge there and then come down close to where Starbucks is currently located.

I have previously raised the issue of the capacity constraints and the passenger cap. Inevitably, when the economy is doing well air traffic numbers tend to increase. In Dublin there has been a very significant increase when the economy performs well. It is worth noting that both terminals are in or around their capacity. For the growth of airlines, particularly for our flag carrier, Aer Lingus, which I acknowledge is now owned by AIG, obviously it is important for transatlantic growth and other areas. Is anything being done to look at moving the An Post base and other facilities on the southern side of the airport complex, to facilitate that growth around terminal 2 and having more gates constructed there in the medium term?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Yes, a new pier will be constructed. Aer Lingus and other transatlantic carriers will use it. That will be terminal 2 going that way, close to the current cargo operations. That pier will comprise the extra stands and capacity to enable us to offer airlines the ability to do many more transatlantic flights.

What is the timeline for this process if everything goes smoothly without any serious challenges?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Once we get the planning application granted, I think it will be two years. We will submit the planning application on 15 December this year. It will take us two years to get the green light on planning from then. If it is sooner, I will be absolutely delighted.

That would be incredible. I am not levelling criticism at Mr. Jacobs on this, but it is interesting that it takes such a long time.

What is the timeline for construction?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

For that particular pier?

For all the works the DAA is requesting.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

For everything shown on the video, it will probably be three years or more. We want to add those aspects that add capacity sooner. We will then get into the choice of what we build first. There is great demand from the airlines. I am delighted that Aer Lingus as part of AIG, want to add long-haul aircraft to the fleet. We all want to get the cap lifted. Then we can get on with growing the airport by making the infrastructure investments that will support sustainability.

To go back to the issue of Cork, want to grow that airport by an even larger percentage. Sometimes people say that there is too much focus on Dublin but that is not the case.

I have a few questions on that as well. Have there been any developments regarding the Cork to Brussels route? From previous engagement with the airport, I know there is a lot of desire for people in Cork to get that connection. The previous connectivity to that region was much appreciated. It has been poor enough but it definitely is something we want to see being implemented

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

On that issue, the team in Cork has been very active in working with airlines to add a Cork to Brussels connection. They have had some very good conversations and we may have news on that front soon, which would be great.

That is good to hear.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Yes. There have been very positive conversations with one airline on that particular route. I hope this route will come back into the schedule in Cork soon enough.

I was very disappointed to see that border preclearance facility planning permission had been declined. Obviously, the DAA has a long-standing relationship with Fingal County Council. It could be argued that it is a very important piece of tourism infrastructure from a business and economic development perspective. Does Mr. Jacobs think it is sustainable that a local authority would have the key say over what is the largest airport in the country? Should those decisions be taken at a more senior level within Government? What is Mr. Jacobs's feel on that relationship, particularly with all the developments coming up at the airport?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Our relationship with Fingal is a good and positive one. We were disappointed the planning permission was refused. We hope the decision can be changed.

Regarding who should make the decision, planning is with Fingal at the moment. In our presentation, I proposed that we would have in place a framework that would support Fingal and any local authority that has critical national infrastructure. It is not just about Dublin Airport. It is a matter for the Government to decide whether to keep it locally or to move it more centrally. At the moment we have a good relationship with Fingal and we will continue on the understanding that it will be done with Fingal. It would be in the national interest that critical infrastructure, like Dublin Airport, is done in conjunction with what we would call a framework to support Fingal to make decisions quickly and that appeals would move faster. That is the right way to do it. It is done in different ways in Europe. In some countries it is done at a local level and in others, national infrastructure is done at a federal level. It is a matter for the Government to decide how it wants to do it. I will certainly be planning that it will continue to operate through Fingal and we will continue to have a good relationship with the council. It should be supported in the process

The rail or metro connection to the airport has been a huge issue for decades. We are all very hopeful that the current plan will be advanced. Has Mr. Jacobs had any engagement from the Department of Transport or the different stakeholders involved? Have conversations in this regard begun with the DAA around how it is going to look? Not many people know the fascinating fact that beneath terminal 2, a space was built for a metro connection to the city, which has just been lying idle. It is incredible that this untapped resource has been there for so long. Everybody, not only in Dublin but around the country, is watching with great interest to see how this is progressing.

Is there anything happening in that regard?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

There is, yes. There are ongoing conversations regarding what it will look like. We have where the station for metro north will be ready to go. We have designs and so on already in progress. We are doing that in consultation with the NTA and the Department of Transport. We are getting ahead of that in order to be ready. It is currently suggested that it will come in 2035. The sooner the better. We would all agree that if Ireland had that 20 years ago, it would have been fantastic. It is what one would expect in any capital city. We are ready to go, however, and we are part of those conversations.

In the context of the planned planning application for Dublin Airport and the raising of the cap, there has been a degree of urgency in the language used in recent weeks, which has somewhat catastrophised the impact it will have on the economy. On the first weekend of November, the Taoiseach came out and said he welcomed the lifting of the cap. If we are looking for a planning process that is straight down the middle, as we all believe it ought to be, the Taoiseach stating, even before a planning application has been submitted, how he would like to see that determined is not very helpful. I somewhat welcome Mr. Jacobs' acknowledgement of how complicated this planning application will be for the planning authority. Looking at the media reports on the matter, one would think this is all about raising a cap from 32 million to 40 million. This is a massive piece of infrastructure that DAA will be applying for. I suspect it will be one of the biggest planning applications the local authority has ever received. Mr. Jacobs stated that it could take up to two years to be decided. There has to be an acknowledgement that this will not be a quick process, given the size of the proposed planning application Mr. Jacobs has set out today. I invite him to comment further on that. I know he would like the system to be different, but the system is what it is. The urgency that has been placed upon it by him and through the comments of the Taoiseach has not been helpful going into this planning process.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I cannot speak for the Taoiseach; he will speak for himself. Is there an urgency in the language I am using? There is. Why is that? It is because we have constant conversations with the airlines, and they will be making their plans next year. The airlines, be they big airlines, general aviation companies or charter operators, can say they can do what they want in Dublin next year by way of passenger numbers. As such, we had to introduce urgency because we are complying with the 32 million with every passenger counted, but excluding transfers. We are complying with that. As we look at next year, airlines have been telling us their plans. It was clear to us that some of them were thinking we could operate to 36 million. It is naïve for them to think that, but it is why there is a greater sense of urgency. We have to flag to people that we are going to comply, as we are, and that is 32 million. If the demand from the airline goes above that, choices will have to be made. There would then be a sequencing in the choices to be made. That is why we are flagging that routes like that from Dublin to Malaga, which is currently flown by Aer Lingus and Ryanair, will keep going because there are grandfather rights on those particular slots. If a new airline somewhere in the world, however, is thinking it can come to Dublin and have 2 million passengers there, it cannot do so. That is what we are flagging to the airlines. The airlines are bullish. Dublin is a low-charge airport. They all want to come here. Many of the ones that are here want to expand. We are saying that all the airlines cannot do that and choices have to be made. Those choices will be made with the regulator because there is a regulated process on how that works. I see a greater need for urgency because I see what our airline customers are seeking to do. We are complying with the 32 million cap and, therefore, choices must be made. We are flagging that is what will happen.

Mr Jacobs stated that DAA is making decisions almost in real time when applications come in for new routes, flights, sporting or music events or whatever and is turning people down. It would be helpful for the committee if he were able to present as much detail as possible. I am sure there are commercial sensitivities and all the rest, but in order for us to develop trust that what has been set out is the case, it would be helpful to have examples of what the authority is turning down.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I will provide that to the committee today. I will not get into commercially sensitive matters. Have we turned away some airlines that wanted to come to Dublin? We have. We removed the transit passengers on Ethiopian Airlines who were making a technical stop in Dublin, counted as part of the cap-----

The airport has lost revenue on that. It was probably counting towards its night movements, but it was not doing anything for the terminal building or doing anything other than earning revenue from use of the runway.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We have turned down that revenue and we have-----

Was it part of the 65 movements at night?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I will have to revert to the committee on whether it was part of the 65 movements. I am informed that it was part of the 65 movements.

On the point raised by Deputy Smith, we have turned airlines away. We are flagging that we might need to do more next year. We have removed a growth incentive that we previously had in place for airlines. We are saying we are managing to the cap and, therefore, we will not incentivise new growth until we need it. We do not need new growth because we are actively managing down. Ethiopian Airlines now makes its technical stop at Airport Roma Fiumicino rather than Dublin Airport. We have turned a few airlines away and told a few airlines they simply cannot add whatever capacity they want next year. That process will continue.

In terms of the extra income DAA would earn if the cap was raised above 32 million, is it as blunt as the airport charge multiplied by the number of passengers? Is there a further calculation based on other income through spending?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

It is not as blunt as that. There is aero revenue and there is also non-aero revenue in terms of those passengers spending money at the airport.

Mr Jacobs referred to Schiphol Airport removing the cap. My understanding is that the Dutch Government imposed a reduction in flight numbers throughout the year, and that was going at approximately 400,000. That has now been paused, however, as there has been a challenge from some airlines that were going transatlantic and had booked into next year. It has not been scrapped but, rather, is on pause while there is a legal challenge from airlines.

A related matter is that Schiphol has infrastructure in place for noise mitigation on the ground. Mr. Jacobs presented a large PowerPoint presentation regarding many aspects of infrastructure he wants to impose but there was nothing in terms of noise mitigation, be it mounds, extra planting or the other things Schiphol does, that people in Fingal, south Swords and St. Margaret's would like to see. Is there still scope for the DAA to provide such noise mitigation measures on the ground as part of the future development?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I have been at some of our pre-planning meetings with Fingal. Noise, how it is mitigated and noise abatement are a critical part of the infrastructure application. We actively and regularly engage through pre-planning meetings with the Aircraft Noise Competent Authority, as the noise regulator, and Fingal on noise and how it will be managed as the airport grows from 32 million to 40 million as part of the infrastructure application.

The authority seems to be planning pinning its hopes on quieter aircraft into the future, rather than on hard measures on the ground that have an impact. Those measures are in place at Schiphol, such as mound waves and other things. I asked for that to be considered.

As regards MetroLink, documents were released this year in terms of planning submissions made by Dublin Airport which were deemed by transport officials to be unhelpful in the context of the delivery of MetroLink. I know DAA released a statement rebutting that. Even the focus of its content in terms of getting passengers into the airport, however has been based mainly on car parks, as well as buses. Dublin Airport is not the largest bus station in the country. It has a large number of buses but it is not a bus station. We need MetroLink. Any growth at Dublin Airport should be contingent on the delivery of a high-speed rail link to the airport. The DAA wants to provide for millions of extra passengers each year, but there is no bus system that will be able to cope with that. There is no car parking system that should be able to cope with it. We need a high-speed rail link. We need that capacity for the airport. Reference was made to metro north when the DAA appeared before the committee previously. I need to see a bigger commitment from Dublin Airport to MetroLink, not just as a concept but as a real desire and a recognition that both the airport and the area need it. I do not see how any further growth at Dublin Airport can be given the go-ahead without the delivery of that infrastructure.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I fully agree. Ireland and Dublin need MetroLink. We are fully supportive. I give my total commitment that we are fully supportive. We have a site for the station ready to go.

I disagree, with great respect, and think Dublin Airport should be allowed to grow before MetroLink happens. Otherwise, we are turning away jobs and connectivity that may not come back. More people are coming to the airport on the bus and I hope that continues. We are setting up to allow that to continue. The infrastructure application has the bus station as part of it. I consider it a bus station. I get the bus from the airport sometimes and it is just a bus station when you go out to the atrium near terminal 1. It is a bus station. That will get bigger. We are ready for MetroLink north. We are fully supportive of it and will continue to be.

The length of this committee meeting and the number of people who have shown up is testament to the interest we have in Dublin Airport, regardless of whether it is our city airport or the national airport.

It is the Senator's local airport.

It is. I know the Leas-Chathaoirleach is going to tell me I am not allowed to ask about flight plans but Mr. Jacobs might give information to the committee after the meeting.

The Senator can ask about flight plans but not about the runway.

I disagree with some of the information Mr. Jacobs shared in his presentation. On that basis, and not to have a ballyrag with him here, I ask him for a complete list of all the public consultation events that have taken place in recent years, including the dates and venues, etc., with people in the areas he then felt would have been impacted by the plans for the new runway. May I also have a copy of the catchment map of the 200 houses designated in the catchment area as requiring insulation? The reality of what has happened, notwithstanding what Mr. Jacobs has said about things changing since February when I do not think they have, is very different for people. I would be grateful if Mr. Jacobs could supply that information to the committee.

I want to talk about the cap, which is what I thought we were here to talk about in the main. It is interesting that when Mr. Jacobs talks about managing the cap, he talks about it in the light of how he interprets the planning application. It is clear to me and to many others that on the basis of the planning permission, which was based on the most recent infrastructural development on behalf of the DAA, the combined capacity of terminals 1 and 2 is 32 million passengers. It does not state anything about surface access or only counting transit passengers once and not twice, or excluding transfer passengers. It states that the entire capacity of terminals 1 and 2 is 32 million passengers. The subcategories on which the planning application and cap are based have very little to do with the road in and out of the airport, although that is important. The issue is to do with drainage, noise, the buildings and the environmental impact statement, EIS, conducted at the time. It is also to do with parking and water. There is a plethora of conditions and conditionality around where that figure of 32 million came from. Mr. Jacobs is telling us he is managing the 32 million cap, when we all know we have gone well over that figure and probably did months ago, as we did in 2019, based on an interpretation. Fingal County Council has one interpretation and Mr. Jacobs has another. We are probably fooling ourselves. Some of the transit passengers who come in never leave the airport, which may be grand, but they still have to access the water and the drainage. They impact noise levels and all of the other considerations. Many transit passengers do leave the airport, even if only for a few hours. If Fingal County Council were to tell Mr. Jacobs tomorrow that the cap means all customers, where stands the capacity this year to the end of October and how does it compare to 2019?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

That is the Senator's interpretation. We have a different interpretation. We are interpreting and managing to the cap. Our view on the planning condition is that it relates to surface access. Transfer passengers, therefore, should only be counted once. Every passenger was counted but what we did was to exclude the double counting of transfer passengers. We think that is the right thing to do. It allows me to answer the question as to where the traffic will be. There are still six weeks left in the year but we are, and will be, fully compliant. The final figure will be 32 million passengers or slightly fewer. Let us wait and see. Transfer passengers are all counted but should only be counted once because they do not leave the terminal. They come in from somewhere else and transfer.

I know exactly what transfer passengers are. I do not mean to be smart. Mr. Jacobs says that according to his interpretation, the DAA is fully compliant. I have searched the original planning permission and the appeal to An Bord Pleanála and neither of them states anything about surface capacity, excluding transfer passengers or only counting them once. The permission states that with the conditionality of the permission DAA applied for, the total combined capacity for terminals 1 and 2 is 32 million passengers. Mr. Jacobs has now excluded transfer passengers and is only counting transit passengers once, as if they flew through and did not impact any of the conditions with regard to facilities, parking, roads, water or energy. What is Mr. Jacobs's interpretation based on?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I respectfully disagree with the Senator's interpretation of the planning. Let us wait and see if our interpretation is challenged. Our view is that it is based on surface access and passengers coming to the terminals at Dublin Airport. It is based on surface access alone.

I am asking what that view is based on. It clearly states in the conditions-----

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

My view is based on the planning conditions.

I am reading those conditions. They states: "The combined capacity of Terminal 2 permitted together with Terminal 1 shall not exceed 32 million ... unless otherwise authorised by a further grant of planning permission."

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

That is one comment from the full planning. My interpretation of the planning is that-----

Is it about how we count to 32 million?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

It is about how we count to 32 million.

Does it state anywhere in the planning application to exclude transit passengers or not count them twice? Is surface capacity mentioned anywhere in the planning application?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Is the Senator asking about the planning condition or the planning application?

I am talking about the planning permission that was granted and on which the 32 million passenger cap is based. Is it stated anywhere that we can assume only surface capacity or surface access should be included?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We think it is. That is why it is our interpretation that transfers should be counted once and should not be double counted.

Will Mr. Jacobs give the committee, perhaps at a later date, evidence as to what his interpretation is based on. We are dancing around on the head of a pin. Mr. Jacobs talked earlier about the DAA being a good neighbour to the people in Fingal. I do not have any wish for the airport not to do well. I have been going to the airport since I played Space Invaders when I was a kid of four years old. I love the airport and probably visit it far too often. I am, however, telling Mr. Jacobs that the people in the surrounding areas, notwithstanding that 26% of the airport's staff live in Fingal, would not tell him that the DAA is a good neighbour. They have been fighting with the DAA for the past year over the fact that aircraft noise has been imposed on them when they were never told it was going to happen. The DAA never gave them the opportunity to sit in front of experts and talk about how to mitigate those issues and decide what to do.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I disagree with that.

Here we are. On the DAA board managing risk, we are here again and dancing on the head of a pin through the interpretation of planning permission, laws and rules. We all know the airport has exceeded the 32 million cap, which is great because it means Ireland is booming. It is wonderful to see. However, we need a little honesty in our interactions, not just with this committee and the Irish public, but also, and in particular, with the people to whom Mr. Jacobs says the DAA is a good neighbour. Those people would disagree.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I disagree with the Senator's view. I think we are a good neighbour.

Mr. Jacobs is alone in that view. I am not sure that anybody-----

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Could I please be allowed a chance to answer? The Senator has spoken for quite some time now. We are a good neighbour and are committing to continuing to be a good neighbour. We are being completely honest and transparent. We are going to comply with the cap. Different people can have different interpretations and they are entitled to them. The Senator can have her view and interpretation of the planning permission. We have our view, to which we are entitled. We are a good neighbour and will continue to be. That is why we have the community fund whereby we are out and working with the community.

My interpretation is based on the words of the English language that are written in front of me.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

So is ours.

I do not have any nuances to try to see how I can wiggle around that interpretation. I am saying that the capacity of the airport was based on a plethora of conditions and the DAA has decided to base it on one. That is disingenuous. We should be having a proper conversation about how we can all help with the new application. We all want to see the airport doing well but we do not want to see it doing well to the detriment or sacrifice of the people who have to live nearby.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We absolutely do not want that either. That is why we are engaged, and will continue to engage, with the community, who are a critical part. As the Senator well knows, many of the members of the community work in the airport.

To be honest, the community does not feel that. If Mr. Jacobs is trying to say the DAA is-----

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I disagree again.

The people in the community are telling me-----

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I disagree. The DAA ran an event at Hallowe'en that had a great community turnout. I think of the events at schools that we sponsor and other things we are doing in the community. We get great support from people. I respectfully disagree with the Senator's view. I meet plenty of people in Fingal who are supporters of what we do. We will continue to look to improve things. I disagree with the Senator's view that we are a bad neighbour.

The local community would disagree with Mr. Jacobs but we will have to agree to disagree.

It might be useful for those who are based close to the airport, including Senator Doherty and Deputy Smith, to get a list of all these people and try to iron out issues with Mr. Jacobs. He might agree, in the fullness of time, to meet some of the groups which say they have not met him yet, perhaps sooner rather than later, so we can avoid this type of interaction and have better relations with those who feel they do not have great relations with the DAA, if we put it that way.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Plenty of people feel they have a good relationship with us.

I am not doubting that. I am saying there is a perception from Senator Doherty at least that some people do not feel they have a great relationship with the DAA. Let us try to improve that situation. It happens in all parts of the country.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

It absolutely does.

In situations where relations are not ideal, sometimes all it takes is a conversation or a chat, and a bit of working together, to improve.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I totally agree. That is what I hear when I talk to people in the community.

They want us to listen, to demonstrate that we are listening and to improve things where we can, which we continue to do.

The raison d'être of this meeting is that I asked for it. We wanted to discuss the cap of 32 million passengers and its potential to have the airport closed on 15 December as a result of somebody coming along and saying the cap had been exceeded and no more people could come into or go out of the airport. Is there a definition anywhere of how a passenger is counted? Why are these Ethiopian flights counted at all? Why are transit passengers counted once but not twice?

Senator Doherty may be right that the criteria were not all about surface access. Passengers who have a 15-hour layover might leave the airport but the likelihood is the vast bulk of people in transit will hang around the airport and then leave. That happened on any flight where I have ever transferred. People try to be in the airport for the shortest time possible. Is there a definition of what the DAA does not have to count? It may be interpreting that it does not have to count the Ethiopian passengers because they do not even get off the planes and is counting other people who come through the airport once rather than twice, even though they came off one aircraft and got on another, while in the case of everyone else it is fairly clear cut. Is there any documentation from An Bord Pleanála, Fingal County Council, the planning authority or any planning regulator of how the DAA counts passengers?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

No, there is not. That is why there are different interpretations of what it is or could be counted. There is not a clear definition of what it is.

The DAA has decided, rightly or wrongly and it may be completely right, not to include the Ethiopian passengers who transit. The people who stay on the plane do not get counted at all. Is that correct? I note that is a moot point-----

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

That no longer happens.

-----but they were not being counted for the cap.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Those flights no longer happen. Our interpretation is that they should not be counted as part of the cap and that transfers-----

The DAA has not included them. If those flights were arriving until October, the DAA did not count those passengers.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

No, they were counted while those flights were coming in and out.

The passengers were counted once.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Yes. Our interpretation is that transits, which have now stopped, and transfers, more importantly, because-----

They are treated the same.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Transfers and transits are treated the same but the transfers should only be counted once. Every single passenger is counted but the transfers are only counted once.

There are no longer any fifth freedom transits in any event, so that is now irrelevant.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Correct.

Everyone else is then counted twice. Counting transit passengers who do not get off aircraft only once and counting all the other passengers, where does Mr. Jacobs think the DAA will be on 31 December this year?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

On 31 December, I think we will be compliant, at 32 million passengers or perhaps slightly under that, where we are only counting the transfer passengers once.

The DAA is seeking permission to increase the limit to 40 million, potentially in two years’ time. Building will take another three years. It depends on whether Fingal County Council decides that the DAA can have a cap of 40 million as soon as it grants the permission or only after the DAA has completed the work. With two years needed for the planning application and a further three years to build, that means the 40 million cap will only become permissible from December 2028 or thereabouts.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

It depends on when it is granted and how quickly we can build.

Yes, but when I asked Mr. Jacobs the question, he answered that the work would take three years. I am not saying it cannot be done in two and a half years. Rather, Mr. Jacobs told me it would take three years and that planning would take two years. Based on that advice, we are talking five years before the 40 million cap will apply. Yet, based on last year’s growth, I think we would be close to 40 million passengers next year if there were no cap.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We will first get planning. We will get the planning application in and hopefully we will get planning as quickly as possible. We will then decide which parts of that infrastructure application we will build out first to give us the capacity to have supply match demand.

Mr. Jacobs is hoping the permission from Fingal County Council will provide that the DAA will not have to have everything done before the is cap raised. For example, it could be raised once the piers have been done or the new stands or whatever.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Yes.

The board is not thinking beyond a 40 million figure but it will need to do that soon. Is that correct?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We are very close to putting in the infrastructure application, which is for 40 million, so we are focused on that. Are we thinking beyond 40 million once we get the infrastructure application in? We take a very long-term view. The board of the DAA will take that long-term view with regard to what happens next and the next infrastructure application.

Mr. Jacobs mentioned that he thought it would be tactically helpful to have the land the DAA does not have between the two runways. If the DAA owned that land today, what would it do with it?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

If we owned it today, we would likely be doing very little. In the next infrastructure application, once we get planning granted, we would look at potentially providing an apron, remote stands or some airport facilities there. If we had it today, however, we would not be doing anything with it.

Are remote stands where aircraft park after they have unloaded or where they pull up to have people bused in?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

It could be both. A long-term view needs to be taken with regard to airports. Dublin Airport made some astute decisions in the past in terms of buying certain land. It would be the long-term view that, as the airport grows beyond 40 million passengers, there would be uses for that land.

It is to the credit of Dublin Airport and its predecessors - Aer Rianta and so on - that the land was bought 30, 40, 50, 60 or 70 years ago when people probably never envisaged Dublin Airport growing to what it is now.

Did An Bord Pleanála ever rule on whether transit and transfer passengers should or should not be counted and whether they should be counted as zero, one or two passengers?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

No, it has not.

On the matter of An Bord Pleanála, I accept that in general people interpret planning conditions. That is why we end up with court cases much of the time, which is fine. In 2018, an application was made under section 146 to amend condition No. 3 relating to these origin destination passengers, as they were referred to. The response from Fingal County Council – I think the application was made to Fingal – was that this was a material change and material changes cannot be granted under section 146. The section is generally used for small, clerical and technical changes. That is the point at which the counting of passengers or exceeding the passenger cap is first considered a material change. A material change cannot be exempted development.

Section 5 provides for an opportunity to seek a declaration that something is exempted development or constitutes development. In 2019, the DAA sent a section 5 declaration to Fingal County Council outlining its concerns and asking whether the increase in passenger numbers was exempted or constituted development. Fingal County Council referred the matter to An Bord Pleanála, which ruled on it. I asked Mr. Jacobs earlier whether An Bord Pleanála had ruled on it. It has made a ruling but not on that question. It stated that the board was not satisfied that any of the questions came within the scope of section 5. Those were the questions the DAA put and they were not in the scope of section 5. The inspector’s report, which I am sure Mr. Jacobs has read given that anybody who submits an appeal into An Bord Pleanála will want to read the inspector's report, stated:

... the use of the ‘airport’ by up to 3 million connecting passengers in excess of 32 million passengers per annum (mppa), if those connecting passengers are facilitated by the Pier 4 ... transfer facility and the combined capacity of the facility together with Terminal 2 as permitted and Terminal 1 would exceed 32 mppa, [it would contravene] condition no. 3 [of the previously granted permission] and therefore is not exempted development.

That is in the inspector’s report. The DAA’s section 146 application came back as it was a material change. Mr. Jacobs or anybody in planning would interpret that as requiring planning permission. Although the board felt the questions regarding the section 5 declaration were not of a standard it could rule on, the inspector came to that conclusion.

All through the planning process, the DAA has had a strong indication from the planning system, Fingal County Council and observers in the area that it is not complying with its planning conditions. I wanted to put that on the record and clarify, as regards what Mr. Jacobs said earlier, that An Bord Pleanála had never ruled on that.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

On that particular judgment, the Deputy has gone into quite some detail on a specific interpretation of the planning-----

Most of the questioning today has been on whether Dublin Airport is in compliance with the planning conditions. Mr. Jacobs is strongly of the opinion that it is. However, we have strong indications from experts in the planning system, the local authority planning system and An Bord Pleanála that exceeding 32 million passengers goes beyond the DAA’s planning conditions and those extra passengers are not exempted development.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

That is the Deputy's view that he put on the record. We have a different opinion and view on that. Our view is that we will be complying and the board of the DAA is clear that we will be complying. We are complying with 32 million passengers, adjusted for counting transfer passengers only once.

Planning decisions in this country are made in the interests of proper planning and sustainable development and are generally in the common good. I would suggest very strongly that Mr. Jacobs' interpretation of planning here is to suit the business model and not to suit the principles of planning.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I disagree. Our view here is that we are a transportation business. We want to promote connectivity. We are not just taking a business-only lens on this. We want to grow the airport and we want the cap lifted because we think that is the right thing for it. That is the right thing for jobs and connectivity. I think I have shown today that it is also the right thing for sustainability.

Why does Mr Jacobs want the cap lifted? If he feels that going beyond 32 million passengers does not go beyond the planning conditions, why not just keep passenger numbers growing? Why does he feel he has to apply for planning permission to go to 40 million?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Because we are a business that wants to fully comply with the law. We have to comply with the law.

Is the business complying with the law at the moment?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Our view is that we are complying with the law at the moment. We will continue to comply with the law in planning until we get the new planning permission granted for the infrastructure application. That is our view.

Okay. I thank Mr. Jacobs.

I thank Deputy Matthews. I call Deputy Smith.

I have two more questions. With regard to the noise impacts on residents, we know the history of it but we now have residents being impacted by noise on a number of levels. I mentioned the on-the-ground noise. In terms of the flight paths, however, homes are being overflown now that were never under any insulation scheme. We could go around the houses on that. Is there any talk within the DAA of revisiting this issue in terms of the homes that are now being overflown with the new standard instrument departures, SIDs? We know from what we have heard in this committee what the future of the north runway is going to look like now in terms of those flight deviations and SIDs. We know from the WHO the impact that aircraft noise has on people's mental and physical health. What we have been hearing from the DAA over the last couple of years is that noise insulation schemes are closed and are moving on and this is where it is at now. Is there scope for it to be reopened in a serious way that there would be a new scheme, or something beyond the new scheme, for those residents?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

There is scope as part of the relevant action. Contained within that, we have a desire that we would potentially insulate a couple of hundred more homes. I do not know what the final number would be. We would work with the Aircraft Noise Competent Authority, ANCA, on this. To answer the Deputy's question as to whether more homes will potentially be insulated for noise, the answer is "Yes". There is definitely scope, working in conjunction with the noise regulator, in terms of where the noise contours are.

Okay. This is my final question because we are well over time now. A residents' group from the St. Margaret's, The Ward came in here to meet the committee. The meeting was held in private session; that was the legal advice on it. It was a tad unfair given that the content of the meeting was top quality. It was a really great presentation. The members who were present, particularly those who are not as familiar locally with the issues and would not be at the public meetings or have seen it, were very impressed, including the permanent Chair of the committee. This group has been doing Trojan work in representing large swathes of Fingal, either through the banner of St. Margaret's, The Ward residents' association or through Forum - Fingal Organised Residents United Movement. Would Mr. Jacobs meet with them? I am not trying to go back over the liaison group and all that. I am not interested in that. Can he commit to meeting a delegation of them? They have a public meeting on 5 December. I can imagine what Mr. Jacobs's answer would be if I asked him to go to that. Could he arrange to have an engagement with them? They are a serious group. It will not be an easy meeting, and nor should it be given everything we are going through and what the communities are going through. There will probably always be a natural tension between an airport and the surrounding community but it is really bad considering what has been going on with the runway, flights, insulation schemes and everything we have spoken about at multiple committee meetings. It is a huge void in relations within the community of Fingal that the DAA is not engaging with this group specifically on the terms and on a one-on-one basis. Mr. Jacobs should please not refer to the Hallowe'en stuff and all those events. It is specifically about this group.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I cannot confirm but I am probably pretty sure we have met them. I would need to come back to the Deputy to say whether we have met them because we have met so many groups. I would need to check and come back to say whether we have met them. Will we meet them again in the future? I suspect we will. Will I go to that meeting? I will try to do so. We actively engage with many groups and we will continue to do so. Am I going to meet every single person who wants to meet me? That is probably difficult to do in the near term while running the DAA. However, I have been out and I have met several groups. I have met with individual households. I have been in individual schools. We will continue to do that. We are good at this.

I will finish on this. That group gave a wonderful platform for Kilcoskan National School, for example, to articulate to the wider community the impacts it is going through. Mr. Jacobs has now met with representatives from Kilcoskan National School. That group has supported an awful lot of public representatives in these committees and an awful lot of people who do not have a voice in their community. To restate the point, it would be good if Mr. Jacobs met them and if he personally was there.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I will try to do that.

I thank Mr. Jacobs.

Deputy Farrell wishes to come in for a few minutes.

Mr. Jacobs is most welcome. I appreciate that he has been here for quite some time so I promise I will not keep him for too long. I have been listening for the last 40 minutes or so as my diary allowed it. I am finding it very difficult to square the circle of the commentary, particularly that of my colleague, Senator Doherty, and most especially, Deputy Matthews, who is the Chair of the Joint Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government, which obviously has responsibility for planning. He put it to Mr. Jacobs that An Bord Pleanála ruled on a matter that Mr. Jacobs stated it had not and while it was not the substantive question, it has dealt with the question as a planning authority. The difficulty I have with the answer that has been provided to the committee, and the reason I came down from my office, is because unless the matter is appealed or changed via a planning application, it is not actually in dispute from a planning point of view. From an operations perspective and I would submit from Mr. Jacob's perspective that, of course, it is in dispute. However, the DAA still has a legal responsibility and a fiduciary responsibility to ensure that the airport is adhering to the planning conditions as they are set out as of today. We are dealing with mid-November. We are dealing with flight plans that were filed one year ago and, in some cases, in excess of one year ago relating to activity within Dublin Airport in 2023.

Deputy Farrell was not here at the start of the meeting. I made it clear to everyone, and committee members will know this, that this meeting was all about the cap and how to deal with that.

This is specifically related to the cap.

That is okay. I just want to make sure the Deputy knows that we specifically did not agree to talk about the north runway or anything to do with the north runway.

We are not talking about the north runway.

That is fine. I just needed to make the Deputy aware of that.

That is understood. I am speaking specifically about the 32 million passenger cap as imposed by the planning condition applied to the construction of terminal 2 and on the entire airport operation. My question is really simple. Mr. Jacobs has commented on this many times. He said he does not agree with what the members have put forward. He did not substantively agree or disagree with what Deputy Matthews had to say. Deputy Matthews really got the core of the issue. I have here the three-page decision of the board, which is online, which sets out under section 5 that the questions that were put to the DAA, which were referred by Fingal County Council, did not satisfy it and, therefore, it has left it to the planning authority, which is Fingal County Council, to interpret. Clearly, Fingal County Council's view is that the planning condition is 32 million until such time as it is changed. I will put a question to Mr. Jacobs. Part of the difficulty with being a representative of north County Dublin for almost 20 years, as I have been, is that when the DAA refers to itself as a good neighbour, many people in the community have a difficulty with that. They will not be swayed by the DAA's outreach programmes regardless of how many millions of euro it spends on them because it is not about that.

For them, it is about being able to sleep in their beds at night without interruption. It is about unfettered access to night flights, which I know is subject to a court action and we will not talk about that. However, that is featuring in the views of many hundreds who have communicated with Deputy Smith and me. We both represent the same communities. It is difficult to hear that the DAA is a good neighbour in the context of the feedback we get as public representatives. I have spent the past year canvassing the entirety of Swords, and the closer I got to the airport the more it came up. There were more issues with proximity noise, which obviously has an impact on passenger numbers. In Portmarnock, St. Margaret's and places like that, there is a great deal of difficulty with flights, in their view, deviating from flight paths.

I will be quick. I know the DAA does not manage the skies, but it is their airport. In recent months, for instance, there has been a 3% deviation from south runway, the original runway, over Portmarnock on departures over the Irish Sea. There was a 90° variation, among other things, over the past few days.

That is again the north runway stuff.

But it again goes to passenger numbers and the credibility of the airport when it comes to making statements like "we are good neighbours" and "we are adhering to the cap". We demonstrably know the opposite is the case.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

There is a lot in that if I can reply.

I am not finished.

None of us is allowed to make charges, so the Deputy should be careful.

Would the Deputy like to let Mr. Jacobs back in?

I would love for Mr. Jacobs to respond.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

The flight paths are now fully compliant. There was a period with a small number of deviations. That is now corrected. We apologised for that. We should have got that right. It is now right, and the flight paths are fully compliant. That is the first thing. Second, on noise, let us take households in Fingal. In 2023, compared with 2019, fewer households in Fingal are impacted by noise. That is a fact from our point of view. Our interpretation of the cap is to count the transfers only once. Other people will have a different view. I think we are a good neighbour. That is something we will continue to work on. I do not think we have an outreach programme. I think we have more than that. We have a good relationship with Fingal County Council, and with the community. We want to improve that, and we want to listen to them and we want them to be part of that and then feel it is a good relationship. There will always be parts who say they do not think it is a good relationship. I know plenty of people in Fingal, who-----

So do I, and I am not disputing that. I am talking about the people who have issues with it because of their interpretation of the planning law as it currently stands, and as interpreted by An Bord Pleanála in its 2020 decision, and by the 2006 planning permission. Therein lies the problem. I do not think it is a matter for the DAA, its board, or Mr. Jacobs as chief executive to interpret planning law.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Our job is to comply with planning law.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We are complying with planning law. My view and that of the DAA board is that we are and will continue to comply with planning law until we get a new permission granted on a new infrastructure application.

I ask the Chair for clarification. My apologies to Mr. Jacobs if he has already answered this question or made it clear. He mentioned under questioning from Senator Doherty that DAA would be close to, or at, the 32 million passengers for 2023. Did that include transfer passengers, or are the transfer passengers extra?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

It includes transfer passengers, but it only counts them once. It removes the double counting of transfers.

Has the DAA corresponded with the Fingal County Council planning department as to whether that is its interpretation of the 2006 planning conditions?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

No, we have not.

Can I ask why not?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We meet with Fingal County Council all of the time, and have had conversations on this. I will not go further into it than that, because it would not be appropriate at this point to do that. If the Deputy is asking if there are discussions on that particular matter, then yes, there are. However, that is our interpretation. Every passenger is counted in the 32 million, but transfer passengers are only counted once.

I will help Deputy Farrell and confirm that the DAA has never sought clarity from Fingal County Council as to whether that is okay with them.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

No, we have not.

Okay. I submit that is very telling. Perhaps the committee will consider that for future hearings. When Mr. Jacobs says it would not be appropriate to discuss it we should note that it is not subject to any planning matters at the moment. There is no application or review. If it is not appropriate now, then when would it be appropriate to discuss it?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Let us get to the end of the year and see what traffic numbers we have.

I think, as chief executive, it would be imperative to know whether you can or cannot plan beyond the 32 million. Let us bear in mind what the inspector said in An Bord Pleanála, and consider that it could be 35 or 36 million.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

I am quite clear about what we are planning.

I will come in here. I am not sure if anyone has asked this question and I have been here through the entire meeting as, to be fair, has Deputy Smith. How many transfer passengers are expected to go through Dublin in 2023? If it is 3 million, are we out by 3 million? Is it 1 million or 7 million? What is the number of transfer passengers going through the airport, whether you count them once or twice?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

The number of transfer passengers going through-----

Transfer journeys if you want to call them that.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Transfer journeys I would need to confirm. It is not many millions. It is significantly fewer than 1 million.

I heard stories before, which are maybe anecdotal, that 40% of transatlantic traffic was transit traffic. I thought that would have been more than 1 million. Maybe it is not, because Mr. Jacobs also told us it is one of the biggest airports in Europe for transatlantic traffic. Will he come back to us with how many transfer journeys are going through, whether or not we count them once, twice or not at all? It will affect our understanding of the challenge.

I thank the Chair. I know the committee has a lot of agencies and bodies to deal with. I am grateful that the Chair specifically has taken the time to call in Mr. Jacobs, because it is important.

I appreciate Mr. Jacobs has been here a long time, as I said from the outset. My view is simple. The DAA is a semi-State commercial agency. It is answerable to the Department of Transport. Here is part of my problem in this instance. Let us roll forward to 31 December at 11.59 p.m. and pretend we are sitting in one of the nice lounges in Dublin Airport. The difficulty I have is that the DAA's interpretation may potentially, as in 2019, lead to a breach of that 32 million passenger cap. We never got to determine whether that was a factual breach, but it published on the DAA website as we speak as 32.8 million or 32.9 million. We know the planning cap was breached then. On this occasion, my difficulty is that those extra passengers and flights have an impact. I am a public representative, currently representing St. Margaret's, Portmarnock, Swords and Malahide in equal measure - at least I will be until the redraw happens. I have to advocate for them, and they are telling me they have a problem with the volume of flights. That volume is clearly linked to passenger numbers. If we are growing in an unfettered manner at Dublin Airport, while ignoring or interpreting the planning law, that is a difficulty public representatives and the public are feeling. I do not know where that leaves us. I really do not. I do not want the committee to call Mr. Jacobs back at the end of January when he sends the economics focused press release showing how successful they have been. That is great. It is wonderful, but there is a consequence and there has to be a reckoning. Planning law should not be broken, especially not by a commercial semi-State agency.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

It should not. We are going to comply with the planning. I will clarify one thing. We have written to Fingal County Council twice on the transfer piece. We did that in 2020 and in September.

Did they get a response?

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We did not get a reply.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We have engaged with Fingal County Council twice on that matter.

I ask the Chair if he will maybe take it upon himself to write to the chief executive of Fingal County Council, and ask if those questions have been answered, and if not, why not?

I will certainly put it on the work programme for the committee to decide what we do. I do not do things on my own, but I am certainly happy to put it to the committee to agree that.

I am sure if AnnMarie Farrelly or any of her senior management team are watching, they make take it upon themselves to answer. I think it is important.

I acknowledge that Mr. Jacobs has not always been in the role he is in now and cannot possibly know everything that happened in the context of the DAA before he got there.

Obviously, there is a ruling from An Bord Pleanála about whether things are in and out. I think it was not willing to allow the DAA to disregard transfer passengers, if I am correct.

The Leas-Chathaoirleach is right. It is taken directly from An Bord Pleanála's website. I will send it to the DAA by correspondence but I will hand it to Mr. Jacobs and the clerk now if they so wish. It is very clear. Deputy Matthews read parts of it into the record.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We are not ignoring it. We are actively-----

The DAA is actively looking to change the planning permission by lodgment in December.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We are actively managing-----

That is very different.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We are also actively turning airlines away that are thinking that they can do what they want at Dublin Airport and can grow significantly. We are saying that they cannot because we are complying with the planning permission.

If there was no cap, the airport could accommodate 40 million passengers today.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Theoretically, but I do not think there would be the airline demand if there was no cap. Is there demand from the airlines to accommodate more than 32 million passengers? Yes, there absolutely is. I think that number would be 35 million or 36 million potentially. We are not ignoring the law. We have to fully comply with the law. Our view is that we are fully complying with it and we will continue to do so until we get a new permission granted to us. In the meantime, we have to manage down capacity. We are actively managing down capacity.

We are not suggesting otherwise. We are not making charges about anybody. We would all expect - as I am sure Mr. Jacobs as a citizen would - everyone, but particularly agencies of the State, to comply with planning law, which of course the DAA is doing.

I thank Mr. Jacobs.

To conclude, I thank Mr. Jacobs for being here for as long as he has. I thank him for his comprehensive opening presentation. There is a lot of positivity here. Politicians tend to be very happy with the positive and then focus on the bits we are not positive about. The fact that we are not talking about conveyor belts, baggage handling, suitcases lost in transit and screening times of an hour and so on, which I have experienced in other airports, is really positive. The fact that so many people want to come in and out of Ireland, and that so many airlines want to use Dublin Airport, is really positive. The fact that we have such a strong Ryanair and Aer Lingus presence in Dublin is a benefit to us all. Equally, we have to make sure that from the public's perspective and from the national perspective, Dublin Airport is fit for purpose in the long term. I think Mr. Jacobs and his team are up for that challenge.

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

Certainly.

We want them to be successful, but within the confines of the law. We also want the DAA to be a good neighbour-----

Mr. Kenny Jacobs

We do too.

-----to those people who may feel it is not being a good neighbour. If that can be resolved between now and our next engagement, it would be a positive and a win-win for everybody. I thank everyone for coming to the meeting. I thank Deputies Alan Farrell and Duncan Smith for attending. They have been here since the start, keeping me company if nothing else. I thank them for that. I thank the staff and Mr. Jacobs's team.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.23 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 29 November 2023.
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