Joint Committee on Transport and Communications debate -
Wednesday, 17 Apr 2024

Anti-Social Behaviour on Public Transport: Discussion

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Apologies have been received from Senator Craughwell. Unfortunately, a vote has been called in the Seanad and I will be asking another member to take the Chair in a moment. I welcome all present to the meeting. I will be back as quickly as I can. The purpose of the meeting is to meet with SIPTU representatives to discuss a recent survey conducted by SIPTU regarding anti-social behaviour on public transport. I am very pleased to welcome the witnesses from SIPTU: Mr. Adrian Kane, transport, energy, aviation and construction divisional organiser; Mr. John Doyle, Transdev Luas driver representative; Mr. John Murphy, transport sector organiser; Mr. Stephen Millane, Dublin Bus representative and SIPTU NEC member; Ms Suzanne Armstrong, Dublin Bus driver representative; and Mr. Tommy Wynne, Irish Rail driver representative and CIÉ worker director.

I will read a quick note on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that you should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if your statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, you will be directed to discontinue your remarks. It is imperative that you comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on or criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings and I will not be able to permit any member to participate where they are not adhering to this requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside of the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member partaking via MS Teams to confirm, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

Before I invite Mr. Kane to make his opening statement, I seek the agreement of the meeting to allow Deputy Smith to take over the chairing of the meeting while I vote. I call on Mr. Kane.

Deputy Duncan Smith took the Chair.

Mr. Adrian Kane

I will defer to my colleague, Mr. John Murphy, on the opening statement.

Mr. John Murphy

Chairman and members of the committee, SIPTU is the largest trade union in Ireland and the largest trade union within the public transport services sector. We organise and represent 6,000 employees across all the various operators who hold public transport contracts with the National Transport Authority, NTA.

SIPTU recently launched a campaign entitled “Respect public transport workers” and its aim was to draw attention to and seek ways to deal with the ever-increasing reports of various types of antisocial behaviour that are taking place across all modes of public transport. While such types of behaviour are not a new phenomenon and SIPTU has highlighted and campaigned on similar issues over many years, we have seen a significant increase in reports from members in recent times. Owing to this, SIPTU conducted an initial survey of our public transport members and on the basis of the results received we launched our campaign.

The initial survey conducted asked questions under the general heading of antisocial behaviour and the frequency members experienced such while carrying out their duties across the public transport network. We received over 600 responses from members employed by Aircoach, Bus Éireann, Dublin Bus, Go-Ahead Ireland, Irish Rail and the Luas. The feedback disclosed within the survey was deeply concerning for SIPTU and we felt action must be taken immediately.

In the survey responses, 21% of respondents stated they faced antisocial behaviour daily, while 30% stated it was a weekly occurrence. Over 80% of respondents stated they have experienced abuse at work and many front-line staff have suffered physical abuse. Furthermore, minority community staff stated they believed abuse at work was a greater issue for them. Over 55% of respondents stated anti-social behaviour had worsened in the past 12 months. When asked what solutions public transport workers would like to see, 70% stated increased police focus on public transport was needed.

In feedback from the comments section of the survey and from subsequent reports from members, SIPTU has commenced a second survey on the issues of drug dealing and taking on public transport and racial abuse suffered by staff. We will apprise members of the committee on this survey results during the hearing.

SIPTU has highlighted these types of issues on public transport many times previously. We have consistently called for the establishment of a dedicated policing unit for public transport but unfortunately, our calls have never been acted on by the NTA, the Department of Transport, the Department of Justice or the Commissioner of an Garda Síochána.

The aims of this campaign are threefold. First, we still hold the view that to adequately tackle all forms of antisocial behaviour then a dedicated policing unit, operating across all modes of public transport needs to be established. Ideally, this would be under the remit and responsibility of An Garda Síochána but if such is not under their remit, then the policing unit established must be centralised under one body and not under the responsibility of individual public transport service operators as is currently the position in Irish Rail and Transdev, LUAS. A dedicated uniform policing unit for public transport would act as a significant deterrent and must be provided with powers of detention and the necessary tools to ensure perpetrators are prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

Second, SIPTU is calling for the immediate establishment of a National Transport Authority advisory council. Such a council was to be established under the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008. This Act detailed the various stakeholders who should be represented on the council and had the right to make recommendations to the NTA on matters related to public transport. This council was never established, despite SIPTU lobbying successive Ministers to have this requirement acted on. We see such a council as the appropriate vehicle to tackle safety and security on public transport.

Lastly, SIPTU believes that a transport charter must be introduced, which would outline what is and is not acceptable behaviour towards public transport staff. The transport charter could and should be used to highlight the problems experienced by staff, and indeed passengers, and help to educate everyone on the acceptable standards that must apply in public transport.

In conclusion, SIPTU wishes to thank the committee for inviting us to present to it today. The above submission is just a short overview of SIPTU’s "Respect transport workers" campaign, the issues faced by our members and what we want to see established to help tackle the problems that exist. We are happy to discuss any aspect of our campaign and its aims and we would welcome any support and assistance this committee can give to the workers who provide a vital service in every community across Ireland.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Duncan Smith)

I thank Mr. Murphy and welcome you all here today. This work from SIPTU is vitally important. It is a tipping point. It brings together the anecdotal experience that thousands of us have felt on public transport, as well as issues that maybe made the media, but crystallises it into one report which needs to act as a tipping point in terms of action on this issue. If our workers are not safe, that means our passengers are not safe, which means any gains or growth in public transport will end up going backwards, and that is not where we want to go. I call on our first member today, Senator Boylan. The Senator has ten minutes.

Senator Lynn Boylan

I thank the Acting Chair, welcome the witnesses and commend SIPTU on the survey. As the Acting Chair has said, it reflects what those of us who use public transport are seeing daily and I am sure it is even worse for some of the workers. From Sinn Féin's perspective, we support the need for a transport police and we welcome the Tánaiste coming out at the weekend in support of that. I suppose we need to hear from the other two Government parties and maybe some of them will join us in time today.

I wanted to get into some of the details of what the proposal is because I am particularly interested in getting people onto public transport from a climate perspective. That is the way to bring down our emissions but it is also a fantastic opportunity for older people with the free travel pass to have their independence if they no longer feel comfortable driving. The key thing is that people must feel comfortable and safe using public transport.

Equally, the night-time economy is dependent on people feeling safe to be able to get home on public transport. Could a SIPTU representative set out how they would see or envision a public transport police? How would it operate? Is there a best practice model because I am always convinced that we do not need to reinvent the wheel here when other cities are doing this? What would be the best model in SIPTU's experience? Maybe we can take that template if we can get agreement from the Government that this is actually necessary.

Mr. Adrian Kane

I thank Senator Boylan. I can take that, if it is okay with the Chair. First, we would see the announcement by the Tánaiste at the weekend as significant. It is the first time that any Government spokesperson or any party leader has given a commitment on that. Two weeks ago, we had a meeting with Deputy Ryan in which we had also tabled this proposal but we did not get anything like the commitment made by the Tánaiste on the weekend. We do not want to be prescriptive at this stage but I do want to outline the different models out there. Maybe if we begin at home, even within this Department, we have a dedicated policing unit in the airport that is in place for the last 40 to 50 years and is a successful model. They have authorised officers who have the right to detain; stop and search; to issue fixed penalty notices; to arrest; and powers of enforcement. The IFI and their officers have a similar suite of measures as well. They are mostly enacted, as I understand it, by by-law with the DAA. That is one model. Then, if we look across Europe, in which they tend to have different levels of policing, we see national, municipal or regional police forces and, in some cases, police dedicated to transport.

The UK has a transport police but that is paid for by transport providers. Looking at the airport model, it is not a full police force. We do not want to start dividing if there is to be some sort of political consensus on a move towards dedicated policing. We do not want to get into fighting over looking for one thing and it being something else. It is significant that the Tánaiste said what he said. Coming out of today's hearing, we need some process and we ask that we have some engagement and the right to consultation to see the evolution of this. The people who know most about this subject are those to the left and the right of me and some of our members and representatives in the Gallery. As Senator Boylan quite rightly said, whatever about us as passengers fleetingly coming across this, when you are working on it eight hours a day, ten hours a day, etc., and dealing with it every day, it becomes quite wearing. We have and we might share with the committee some more results of a more recent survey we did specifically on drug taking and racial abuse. We can share that with the committee maybe later in the discussion. We are not trying to be prescriptive on the basis of dividing, but those are the types of models out there, and we want engagement as to how we might develop that.

Senator Gerry Horkan resumed the Chair.

Senator Lynn Boylan

I appreciate that - rather than coming down on one side, allowing the consultation to happen at least. It is progress.

May I ask the witnesses about the recommendation in 2008, as Mr. Murphy said, of the transport advisory council, which has not been established? Mr. Murphy said that would allow for engagement with the NTA. How are communications at the moment? Are they good? Is there a forum for that to happen? How do the witnesses, as the workforce and the representatives of workers, let the NTA know what is happening on the ground?

Mr. John Murphy

Unfortunately, there are no good channels of communication. Particularly in recent years, with Covid and the lockdowns, public transport was continuously operating to a reduced degree, but our members were working day in, day out. There were various issues on which we tried to engage with the then Minister and the NTA and, unfortunately, while I would like to say there was engagement and co-operation, there was not. There were acknowledgements of receipt.

The Senator rightly referred to the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008. I think it specifically says that on establishment day an advisory council would be established. The Act set out who would be on the council, including, I think, a member of the Garda of no lesser rank than superintendent. There were also trade union members, members of various local authorities and other stakeholders. If that or something similar to it had been established, there would have been a conduit for raising not just security and safety issues but regular issues across the network.

The only time we get a positive engagement with the NTA seems to be on the likes of the rolling out of BusConnects. In fairness, it engaged extensively with us on that because we were involved in local communities and with our members trying to highlight the positivities of that.

As was said, we are all for public transport and the benefits it will bring. With nearly €3 billion invested in BusConnects as well as the planned metro and Luas extensions, if the gains of this are to be realised, people have to be satisfied when using public transport that they will be safe and secure on it. We do not think it will be fully realised unless something is done to alleviate the problems that are increasing and faced daily by not only our members but also passengers.

Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, which does the contracts for the rail network, commissioned a study in 2020, Travelling In a Woman's Shoes. I am sure people have read it.

Senator Lynn Boylan

I have read it.

Mr. John Murphy

They should read it. Some of the statistics gleaned from that, particularly about women and their view on public transport and whether or not they would use it, were frightening.

The evidence is there and the data is there. We just need, as Mr. Kane said, some sort of conduit to be able to communicate, to try to get our points across and to listen to other opposing points, if there are any, but to co-operate on a cross-body forum to try to deal with this problem.

Senator Lynn Boylan

I find it shocking that Mr. Murphy says SIPTU is met with a brick wall when it comes to trying to communicate with either the Department or the NTA.

Mr. John Murphy

Particularly on this issue, on security and safety, the NTA does not seem to want to engage. As Mr. Kane mentioned, the NTA has the responsibility for establishing by-laws on public transport. It has some in place; it could increase them. It could, as in the airport, appoint authorised officers with these powers. The deterrent will be the major plus, but to be able to remove people from the infrastructure and the vehicles and enforce prosecution is what we see as the real deterrent to alleviate and stop the problems people face daily.

Senator Lynn Boylan

I think I am out of time now, but the committee should follow up on that. It is not good practice if the people at the coalface have no route to let those in power know what they are experiencing and what needs to happen to make public transport safer for everybody.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I spent the last two or three days at the Transport Research Arena with most of the stakeholders. Various stands were there, Irish Rail and Dublin Bus were there as well as various other operators and so on. It is all about the future, getting modal shift and getting people involved with public transport. If people do not feel safe on public transport, even if this is not happening all the time and everywhere, although SIPTU's figures say it is happening a lot more than we would like, people will be fearful of participating. When we are all about climate change and trying to get people to buy into public transport, if there is a perception that it is not safe, it will not work. I thank the witnesses for conducting and highlighting and then bringing to our attention SIPTU's survey.

I will bring in Deputy Lowry now.

Deputy Michael Lowry

I thank the witnesses for their attendance and the body of work they have completed. It is hugely important. I am a public transport user and you witness daily on public transport the level of intimidation of staff and customers and clients on the transport system. I am glad that this issue is being brought to the forefront by the witnesses, and it was good to see the Tánaiste acknowledge on Saturday night that there is a need to address this issue. I hope, arising from the witnesses' contribution today, that our committee can insist, through the Tánaiste's office and the Minister for Transport, that we need to engage with the likes of SIPTU and others involved in the sector who have first-hand knowledge and experience of what has happened, what is happening and what needs to be done to correct it. There is full support on this committee, I think, for SIPTU's report and the recommendations it make in it.

Only yesterday, I received a letter on behalf of Brazilian students here in Dublin, and they attached photographs with it. I was absolutely horrified when I read the letters and looked at the photographs and saw that young Brazilian students are being targeted at bus stops here in Dublin. It is a shocking indictment of our country. Literally because of their colour, they are being set upon and endangered. It is a problem in society and it is obviously a problem on public transport. Mr. Murphy mentioned a transport charter. Senator Boylan has covered the area of the dedicated policing unit. On the policing unit, how effective is the one model that is working with Irish Rail? Will the witnesses elaborate on the transport charter? What would they like to see in it, and what is its make-up? What should it be?

Mr. Tommy Wynne

I will take that on behalf of Irish Rail. The Irish Rail model is good. It does help. It sets up hubs at different stations along the routes, at mainline stations mostly.

It absolutely does help because it gives the host - the customer service officer, CSO - on the train somewhere to ring to try to get gardaí to the station. However, to be honest, this is only putting a sticking plaster on the problem. As the Deputy said, antisocial behaviour has got very bad in all elements of society. I have been 30 years on the railways and I have never seen things as bad. The measures they have put in place have undoubtedly helped but the antisocial behaviour is getting worse all of the time. As I said with regard to the CSOs, a lot of young girls and young males have started in the company in the last few years and they are intimidated. They are on the trains where people are using drugs, drinking and carrying out antisocial behaviour the whole time, and they do not know what to do. They ring the gardaí to come to one of these hubs but they have to get to that hub or that station to stop the train. Meanwhile, people are getting more boisterous because the train is stopped and people are asking why the train is not moving.

The hubs are a good idea and these are suggestions that we have made to the company. To be fair to Irish Rail, it does liaise with us to try to come up with ideas to improve things. The only issue is the gardaí. As I said, those hubs are for when gardaí come to the station. Only a couple of weeks ago, I got a call where a girl had trouble on the train and rang the station ahead. The train stopped but had to wait there for nearly an hour for gardaí to come. While the idea of the hubs is great, if we do not have the resources to send somebody, which is always the problem, then it defeats the purpose of having them.

Senator Boylan said earlier that she is in favour of this and it is great to see Sinn Féin in favour, as well as the Tánaiste. However, I have felt for a long time that to have transport police is the answer, whatever form that takes, and Senator Boylan, Mr. Kane and Mr. Murphy made a similar point. We can discuss what form it should take and come to a consensus. I know certain people want limitations on the idea and they do not want certain things done, which is fair enough, but I think that is the answer. Every time the gardaí come, it makes a huge difference and it makes people behave. I know some people have trouble with the Garda but 99% of people want gardaí to arrive. When they do, people cop on and stop behaving badly, and they either get off the train or gardaí arrest them or whatever, but at least it changes what happens. It is the same in the stations. Connolly Station and Heuston Station also have hubs and they are the very same. When the police are there on the ground, it makes a huge difference. Irish Rail has spent a lot more money on security in the stations, which is great, but people still carry on when security are there. However, when gardaí arrive, it is very different.

Mr. John Murphy

I want to come in concerning the charter. We see the charter as the third string to the bow in terms of what we are looking for, and we think it links in. I will take the Deputy back 12 or 18 months to when I was highlighting attacks on workers in accident and emergency units and the healthcare environment. It was publicised and, as far as I know, there is now something on the wall in the hospitals about a charter, patients’ rights and workers’ rights. We see this as a mechanism to try to educate people, particularly young people, so they are aware of the problems and consequences of what they are doing. Most of the providers and operators of public transport engage on a regular basis with local communities, particularly where there are high levels of antisocial behaviour.

The Deputy probably saw 12 months ago that Dublin Bus pulled its services out of west Tallaght because of repeated antisocial behaviour occurring after 6 p.m. The way that was resolved was by members of the trade unions, including SIPTU, members of management, local community activists, local TDs, local councillors and local community gardaí sitting around and discussing the issue to see how it could be brought to the attention of people within the area. These types of areas are heavily reliant on public transport. We need to educate young people as to what is acceptable and unacceptable. We need them to know that the consequence of this behaviour is that it is likely that there will be curtailment or withdrawal of public transport services, which will impact their mothers, fathers, sisters, grandmothers, grandfathers and people within their community and their family who are depending on public transport.

It is about making it an awareness campaign to educate people. Going forward, we would like to see education at school level. While it could be for public transport, it could even be a society-wide charter to educate young people on what is acceptable. However, the consequences of not adhering to or not trying to stay within the charter need to be spelled out to people. We can only see that as a positive.

Deputy Michael Lowry

With regard to one other point that might strengthen that case, does SIPTU have any information or data in regard to the recruitment and retention of staff arising from the difficulties they face?

Mr. John Murphy

We only have anecdotal evidence. The Deputy probably has seen in the last few years advertisements on the sides of buses looking for drivers. Not only Dublin Bus but also Bus Éireann and Go-Ahead struggle to recruit. Thankfully, we have full employment and this is one of the symptoms. Anecdotally, given the issues faced by female drivers and people from ethnic minorities in particular, the companies think there is a reluctance among people to take or apply for roles. Unfortunately, when people are driving or checking tickets on public transport, they are isolated to a great degree, so they are exposed to antisocial behaviour. We all saw what happened in November with the riots on the streets. Hopefully, that was a once-off but there are day-to-day issues to be faced.

Some of our representatives were interviewed when we launched this campaign and they gave evidence and accounts to various media about the issues they faced, particularly being stalked on social media just for doing their job or maybe because they tackled somebody who was doing things wrong on a platform, at a train station or on a bus service. Given the ease of access, people were stalking them and their families. It is something that has to be tackled but, hopefully, we are now heading in the right direction.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I will take Senator Dooley's slot. I thank the witnesses for all that they do every day on behalf of all of us because, to greater or lesser extent, we all use public transport. I regularly use Dublin Bus and the Luas. Based on where I live and where I go, I do not use Irish Rail as much but I certainly have used Irish Rail and will do so.

I have a few questions. I know the Fianna Fáil Dublin parliamentary party group, including myself, did a survey about antisocial behaviour and got 1,300 responses from the wider public, whereas the data we are discussing is from SIPTU members. Have we an idea of how many members are in that sector? Was it 600 responses out of 6,000? What is the figure?

Mr. John Murphy

We have nearly 7,000 in the SIPTU transport sector but that would include port and docks workers.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

How many people might have been given the chance to participate in the survey?

Mr. John Murphy

I would guess it was around 3,500.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is still a very significant number of responses, and I am sure some people just did not get around to it or forgot to do it before the deadline. I get all of that. I am just trying to get a handle on the number of responses.

Mr. Adrian Kane

It is a very large sample response.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I agree but I just wanted to get a handle on it because, clearly, it is those people who are affected. We should have a zero-tolerance approach and there should never be a single incident on a single bus, train or LUAS.

The opening statement has a couple of requests and it tells us the shocking figures of 21% of people saying they face it on a daily basis and 30% weekly. Although I am not sure if the 21% is included in the 30%, that is an awful lot of people. Clearly, the people who respond are more likely to have had a bad experience and maybe some people who did not respond have not had one or have been fortunate. Generally speaking, maybe it is due to the routes I am on or the time I travel at but, by and large, I am lucky with the service I get. While one incident is one too many, I do not want the message to go out that it is unsafe all day long on all forms of public transport.

Mr. Stephen Millane

We certainly do not want that either.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I do not think the witnesses are saying that. However, I would not want anyone looking in to think that antisocial behaviour is rampant either. If it is, by all means, we want to know about it, but when I use the Luas or Dublin Bus, by and large, it is good. I sometimes feel sorry for the drivers having to go through the traffic they have to go through and, sometimes, if a bus has not been there for a while, it is very congested and so on.

Nonetheless, while it is a good service that is provided on a daily basis, we must ensure the policing aspect. I believe the SIPTU recommendation is the right way, and that is for a dedicated section within An Garda Síochána as opposed to a completely separate transport force that, if it is not competing with the Garda, is separate from the Garda. Those are my thoughts and it is also what the witnesses have said.

For us and for people looking in, are there particular issues? Is it a geographic thing, is it a time thing, is it late at night or at weekends, is it rural routes to areas that are very sparsely populated or is it urban routes?

Has antisocial behaviour certain characteristics such that you know it will be much worse on one shift or route than on a different shift or route? I presume Sunday mornings are quieter than Friday nights. Maybe the representatives could flesh that out a bit.

Mr. Stephen Millane

I am the SIPTU representative for Dublin Bus. I have been with Dublin Bus for 30 years. There has always been some antisocial behaviour. There are flashpoint areas on the north side and south side. Initially, it used to occur in the evening at weekends and maybe at times like Halloween, but, unfortunately, it has become the norm and accepted. The incidence was high years ago and then seemed to decrease, but in recent years it has increased. There has also been an escalation in that incidents have become more severe and violent.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Could we be given some examples? Racist behaviour and bad words are absolutely wrong but it is even worse if rocks are thrown at your windscreen.

Mr. Stephen Millane

It is not only the throwing of rocks; there is also the likes of spitting. Even though drivers are behind protected screens, people try to rip them down, and they bang them and smash them. Sometimes, it is a question of rage. It could be drug fuelled or alcohol fuelled. As said earlier, there seems to be no deterrent. It seems to be okay for people to do what I have described.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Has it been worse after Covid?

Mr. Stephen Millane

It has escalated after Covid. Passengers may have rows with each other. These are not just vocal rows or arguments; they can become physical, with weapons. The bus driver, who may be female, is expected to intervene. All a driver can do is call the Garda.

Recruitment was mentioned. The staff turnover in Dublin Bus is huge. We have employed many people in the past 12 to 18 months. They go out the door as quickly as they come in, however, because they realise they will be driving in certain areas. Although Dublin Bus has had a recruitment drive, especially for females, drivers on certain routes, possibly working at night, commonly anticipate trouble as part of their day’s work. There is some fear of going to work. No employee should have to leave his or her house in the morning or afternoon and go to work fearing that something will happen.

The incidence has increased, and not just in the flashpoint areas. Antisocial behaviour can happen in town. There are certain drug routes on which people meet up on buses, do their transactions and get off. This needs to be tackled immediately. The Garda has a certain amount of resources but officers cannot be everywhere at once.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

When I was growing up, cameras were put on buses. Half of them did not exist but there were little boxes that looked like cameras. Maybe only 10% of them were cameras. Every bus now has cameras. Everything is recorded.

Mr. Stephen Millane

Every bus has 12 to 16 cameras, and they are high definition. We have antisocial behaviour forums in certain areas around the city where antisocial behaviour is extreme. They include Dublin Bus representatives, local representatives of various parties and society groups, and gardaí also attend. They go through the incidents for which there is evidence.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I share the frustration. I perceive that there are certain cohorts in society who believe they are untouchable and can do what they like. Even if they get caught or prosecuted, they just keep doing it. It is the same with shoplifting and other activities.

Mr. Adrian Kane

We have come with a multifaceted approach to this. Policing is one aspect. The Leas-Chathaoirleach might have stepped out when we responded to Senator Boylan.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I missed the start of her contribution because we were voting.

Mr. Adrian Kane

We are not being prescriptive because we do not want to lose political goodwill in terms of the concept being accepted. Let us tease through what is best practice and implement it.

Let me describe what we are up against. There are two things happening. Ireland is becoming a multiracial society. Maybe Mr. Alade or Mr. Tei will want to comment on the experience of a person of colour from an ethnic minority background-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I believe there are staff of over 70 nationalities in Dublin Bus.

Mr. Adrian Kane

-----or Ms Armstrong on the experience of being a woman with respect to how dangerous it can be.

We are becoming a multiracial society and have to manage that. A public space in which this can occur is public transport. Ireland is probably the only country in the world where people get off the bus and say “Thanks very much” to the bus driver. I have never seen it happen anywhere else. That is what we want to encourage.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The recruitment campaign referred to getting thanked for everything.

Mr. Adrian Kane

The point is that we have to manage the transition. Public transport is an important space in terms of how we do so.

Another thing that comes to mind, which a colleague mentioned to me, is that the campaign Show Racism the Red Card in football indicates the space we need to be in.

On the other aspects of antisocial behaviour, you cannot get over the inequity in our society without tackling what is driving it. Let me quote Mr. Tony Blair. I do not believe I ever quoted him in my life.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is history in the making.

Mr. Adrian Kane

He said that we must be hard on the causes of crime as well as crime. We are not here banging the drums saying it is a question of policing, but policing does have a significant part to play.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The lack of a deterrent is a problem.

Mr. Adrian Kane

The lack of a deterrent is a major problem. We need to sort that and ensure how people behave on public transport is indicative of how people are treated in this society, regardless of colour, gender, race or otherwise. That is what is driving this campaign.

We are at a junction in this society where the State is not seen to be effective in addressing the problems. We want to see an effective State response. We want to sort out the detail of what policing would look like, move on it and resolve it. This problem could be resolved by showing racism and antisocial behaviour the red card, such that it will be said that we turned this around, with the State behind it. This would provide a safer workplace for the people we represent.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Kane. Even though I am in the Chair, I cannot exceed the time too much, so I want to conclude. I hope there will be time for the second round.

I mentioned the three main asks of SIPTU. One is a dedicated national transport-related Garda service and another is the establishment of a transport advisory council. I was around long enough as a councillor to remember the body that preceded the National Transport Authority, namely the Dublin Transport Authority, and the Act based on there not being an opportunity to air grievances and tackle issues so they would not end up in committees like this. The transport charter is the third ask. I have seen on the Luas that you are not supposed to eat or drink and that you should show respect to staff and fellow passengers. That seems to be an absolute no-brainer. We will have representatives of the NTA in again – before the summer, I am sure – and we will raise the points SIPTU has gleaned from its survey. I thank our guests for highlighting the issue. The report is available to read.

Mr. Adrian Kane

We have a second one also.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I saw that there is a second one to deal with racial abuse and drug dealing and taking, in particular.

Mr. Adrian Kane

We might comment on that later in the discussion.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I thank all SIPTU’s members who work in public transport every day and also those who do so but who are not SIPTU members. We appreciate that it is not easy work. It is difficult enough to drive on the streets or drive a Luas or train all day long without having to deal with unruly, aggressive, violent or racist passengers. I thank our guests for what they are doing.

Deputy Duncan Smith

I thank all the witnesses for attending. As I said when I was briefly in the Chair at the start of the meeting, this body of work should serve as a tipping point in terms of real action on this.

We talk about the transport police in the airport being a template perhaps. I feel much safer in an airport for several reasons. There are barriers to entry into airports, they are usually outside cities and it is necessary to pay to get parking, transport or to get on a flight. It is very easy to get on a bus or a Luas tram, however. Crime, antisocial behaviour or intimidation can happen. It can happen in the centre of Dublin city or on the top deck of a bus in a rural part of the country or in County Dublin, which is very isolated. There are great challenges here for the workers and for a transport police force to come in and tackle. This is what must be done.

I would like to give some of my time to Ms Armstrong, Mr. Doyle or Mr. Wynne, as front-line workers, if they wish to share any more of their experiences. I do not want to put them on the spot, but we are now 40 minutes into this meeting. I ask them to expand a bit on what is actually happening to them, including in the context of being a woman working in the area, and on anything else they might think would be pertinent to allowing us to have a greater understanding.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is very important that we hear about the particular instances-----

Deputy Duncan Smith

I will then have one question for the panel afterwards.

Mr. John Doyle

The Deputy mentioned the untouchables. These untouchables all start at a very young age. There is no age limit to antisocial behaviour, who causes it, when it happens or anything like that. When this type of behaviour starts when people are at a young age and untouchable, it means they do not learn respect or anything like that. Whatever comes through your window or at your door, and everything like that, is all learned from somebody else who came before them. A transport police force should have been in place a long time ago.

I do not know what people are expecting. Everything is not happy on the Luas trams, the buses or the trains. We have all witnessed something that starts it all off. It can be very intimidating, and people shy away and all this carry-on. If people actually did report what they saw or if CCTV footage were downloaded for every incident, we would be shocked at what goes on. We have no deterrent whatsoever. People know the Garda response time and that our security officers are absolutely powerless. When they started first, they were terrifying. Everyone saw the black uniform and everything, and there was a bit of respect, but then the people involved in these incidents realised these officers had no powers. They just check tickets in a different colour uniform. My colleague Mr. Alade will probably verify that as well.

We need the transport police. When gardaí do get on our vehicles, as Mr. Wynne said, there is a fear of them. There has always been so. A uniform with power is something, but the black uniform, to check tickets or whatever, is no deterrent. The people involved know what is going to happen to them, which is nothing. I have seen it all. I have seen people with knives threaten children. I have seen everything. You name it, I have seen it all. I have been doing this job for 20 years, as most people have been. When people see this every day, it just makes them feel like not wanting to go to work because they are fed up going to work. It causes people to miss days. It is not good and not pretty, if the committee knows what I mean.

Ms Suzanne Armstrong

I am a driver with Dublin Bus. We could face anything. I am blue in the face saying this because I have been saying it all day, although all the committee members have probably not heard me, but what could happen would be having a brick thrown through your window or a drug user on the bus. I was saying I drove over a ramp one time and there were people using drugs upstairs. Their drugs went flying all over the floor. I was actually petrified because I heard them shouting, and then I was wondering if they were going to come down the stairs to get me. Stuff like this might seem like nothing to someone else, but it is terrifying.

Deputy Duncan Smith

Yes, it is huge.

Ms Suzanne Armstrong

Yes, it is.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

A driver like Ms Armstrong is very vulnerable on her own.

Ms Suzanne Armstrong

Incredibly so. It is like Mr. Millane said earlier. We have our doors closed and the screens up, but this is all we have. It is not a lot when people get really angry or irritated. We do not know if they are intoxicated. We have no idea, and it is just-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The drivers do not know what weapons people could be carrying either.

Ms Suzanne Armstrong

Absolutely. I saw a guy walking down the bus one time. He put his hand around to his back when he was coming out the door and I was wondering what he was going to do, including if he was going to shoot me. He was one of the ones whose drugs had come flying off the seats. There are even situations like when you are coming to a bus stop and people are irate because you will not open the doors quickly enough or when people will press the stop button at traffic lights and jump out in front of traffic. It could be anything, and all this type of behaviour should be completely unacceptable. As I said, sometimes a garda will get on your bus and then there is no carry-on. There is none. Sometimes, gardaí will just flash the badge and get on, they travel for free, and then there is no carry-on. When people see them doing this, those bus journeys are fine. There is no deterrent, otherwise, however.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is the presence.

Ms Suzanne Armstrong

The people responsible for this behaviour will get off one bus and onto the next bus, Luas tram or whatever and there is nothing to stop them. We sometimes know who these people are but it does not make a difference.

Deputy Duncan Smith

It is interesting what we heard from those two contributions. Would Mr. Wynne like to come in with his perspective from Irish Rail?

Mr. Tommy Wynne

Yes. I have a couple of things to say. I would like to add to something the Leas-Chathaoirleach said a few minutes ago. We are not saying there is trouble on every train, bus and Luas tram. There is not and we all know it. There are thousands of services each day around the country and no trouble whatsoever on 99% of them, which is great. As Senator Boyhan said earlier, we all want everyone to use public transport more. We are here because this is what we want. The services are brilliant, increasing all the time and there is no trouble on 99% of them. As Ms Armstrong and Mr. Doyle said, when there is trouble, there really is just no way to stop it.

Only two weeks ago I got a phone call from a fella late on a Saturday night. He was cleaning a station at the end of the night, emptying the bins and something stuck into his leg. He had to go to the accident and emergency department because it was a needle someone had been using that day. This man has had months of worry about this, and his family have as well. This is the sort of thing that happens. Drug-taking is out there all the time now. As I said, though, 99% of the time, everything is brilliant and great. When these few other experiences happen, though, we do need the support and I suppose this is the whole point.

Deputy Duncan Smith

I thank Mr. Doyle, Ms Armstrong and Mr. Wynne very much. What Mr. Doyle said is interesting. Representing a constituency that does not have a Luas service, I sometimes hear people say that it would be great if Dublin Bus or the DART had the security services that are on the Luas, without them understanding the reality that has just been articulated. The people causing trouble on the Luas know those security workers do not have any power, which is why we need transport police. This is an important point to get across. It is important to pierce the myth that the arrangement on the Luas service is working effectively from a security point of view. When trouble erupts, it has its limitations, as was mentioned.

I was chatting with Ms Armstrong on the way in. She informed that me she drives multiple bus routes at different times and never knows what is going to happen. Her experience does not come from driving one bus route in one area where there is trouble. Ms Armstrong is a great example to show this is a problem on many services. I fully support having a transport police service, one which, ideally, would be part of An Garda Síochána, but I am not being prescriptive as long as there is a centralised authority.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It should be a uniformed service.

Deputy Duncan Smith

Yes, it should be uniformed and have real power and real teeth.

There seems to have been a level of destaffing in traditional roles across some public transport services over the years. Let us take stationmasters at train stations as an example. Platform staff have also gone from train stations. It would also seem that there are fewer inspectors on Dublin Bus services. Even where they are present, it is not up to those workers to have to step in. Do the witnesses think that having greater number of regular staff would have a better impact in terms of tackling very low levels of antisocial behaviour? I am thinking especially of those train stations that are not staffed and that seem to be the flashpoints I come across. I ask this while being very conscious of not wanting to distract from the clear requests in respect of what we need in this area. I just have to ask this question because it is something that-----

Mr. John Murphy

Yes. We deliberately avoided this aspect. We did not want to be coming in here or campaigning in a way that could cause people to say it was just SIPTU looking for more jobs and employees. We have all seen that unmanned stations and platforms and the isolation of bus, Luas or train drivers on the system do contribute to antisocial behaviour. What Mr. Doyle and Ms Armstrong said there were very salient points. Mr. Doyle touched on the fact that there are repeat perpetrators who know the powers these security officers in the black uniforms have are limited or, to some degree, non-existent. Ms Armstrong gave the example of when a garda gets on a bus. It is possible to see the palpable change in the atmosphere and that people have more respect and are more unwilling to engage in this type of antisocial behaviour. That is because they see the uniform and know there is enforcement.

We are not here to say we want jobs for everybody and that we want ten people on every platform.

We do not want this campaign to be detracted from. This is about the security and safety of our members and the passengers. Everybody here is involved in public transport. Everybody wants to see public transport grow and be the preferred option for the majority, if not all, of our citizens. To do that, people need to feel safe.

Deputy Duncan Smith

I thank Mr. Murphy for giving us this tool. We have had management before this committee and we have raised with them safety issues on public transport. We raise issues like something that might happen in the summer on the DART line or the Dublin riots. They always come back and tell us they had an action on a weekend at the end of August where there were dedicated gardaí on the train line for the weekend or where An Garda Síochána responded quickly. They deflect and minimise an incident. However, the work done by SIPTU gives this committee and other public representatives a tool to leverage against the NTA or management of individual companies, the Department of Justice and Ministers. I thank Mr. Murphy. We will do our best.

Mr. Stephen Millane

Irish Rail and Luas have private security. Dublin Bus relies on An Garda Síochána. Someone might get on a bus coming into town and cause problems on the bus and cause hassle for the driver and passengers. They might then get on a Luas to Heuston Station and cause the same problem. They might have interaction with the security personnel on the Luas and then get on a train. There needs to be a central transport police body. TFI and the NTA want Leap cards that allow people to get on any mode of transport, whether train, Luas or bus. They want it to be uniform but the kind of transport police unit we are looking for will cover those, so they are interlinked and interconnected. At the moment, the system is fragmented. They are individual companies and services. Unless they are entwined to deal with the perpetrators - the 1%, as Mr. Wynne said - there is no deterrence. It would mean that if I cause trouble on Dublin Bus, the company would be in contact with the Luas and Irish Rail, so there would be a record.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Ms Armstrong noted that there are passengers they know are persistent offenders. They might see a person at a stop and think trouble is coming. Mr. Murphy mentioned that there is no age barrier to this kind of behaviour. People could be starting at eight, nine, ten, 11 or 12 throwing rocks or acting the eejit. It needs to be tackled at the persistent offender level because it is probably 0.1% of the travelling population causing 40% or 50% of the trouble, or maybe more. My grandfather is a long time dead. He was a bus conductor in Wigan for a year when he was just out of school. In those days we were used to bus conductors, and when I was growing up there were bus conductors. They are obviously not there now. One-person-operated, OPO, services are almost 40 years old now. When travelling late at night on a route that is not especially populated with passengers you are vulnerable, and we acknowledge that. I have spent the past couple of days at the transport meetings. People in Dublin Bus and other companies are proud of what they are trying to do. They are proud of their staff, their new technology and the new buses and rail carriages. From the management side, it is not in their interest to allow any level of public disorder. We need better engagement from unions, management and policing authorities.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I apologise for being a little late. A few committee meetings coincide on Wednesday afternoons. I have read the opening statement, and I thank the witnesses for their service. I mean that sincerely. Thanks to Irish Rail, I am able to commute from the bottom of County Clare. I have to get an early morning train at 7.45 a.m. to get up for my day's work. I will go back down at 9 p.m. tonight. It is a great service. Following the Dublin riots, damage to some of the public transport fleet was well publicised. Are any workers affiliated to SIPTU still out on leave due to injury, stress or harm incurred on that night?

Mr. John Murphy

Not that we are aware of. We know some people were caught up in the central areas where the riots took place, and it obviously had a significant impact on them. I think everybody saw the bus that was set on fire. One of our members drove that bus, and we know he had a period where he had to come to terms with that. However, we are not aware of people being out sick long term due to that incident alone.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

This question relates to Dublin Bus in particular and the Luas to a certain extent. There is a large amount of driver training, but is any training offered to new entrants with regard to what they may face in terms of antisocial behaviour? They should not have to de-escalate, but what do they do if something breaks out on a bus or Luas?

Mr. John Murphy

One of our members, Kabir Alade, is a customer assurance officer - a ticket checker - on the Luas. Security staff on the Luas get training on conflict avoidance. It is not particularly about how you can dissipate the conflict, but about how to extract yourself from the conflict and not get involved in the first place. The basic training is that if you believe there is a real threat to you or passengers, you do not get involved, you try to radio through for assistance from either the dedicated security team or An Garda Síochána. I am not sure about bus drivers.

Ms Suzanne Armstrong

When I went through it approximately eight years ago, the protocol was that you stay in your cab, keep your door closed and screen up and you call control for assistance. That is the training we have. That was pretty much it. As Mr. Murphy said, we avoid conflict. We de-escalate if we can, but we do not get out of our seat.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I have seen incidents kicking off on buses. The buses are fantastic and get people around, but they seem a little flimsy. When a bus goes over a speed ramp, the whole vehicle rattles. The driver's cab seems to be made of perspex or flexiglass. Has the union or have front-line drivers ever said they have had this for between ten and 15 years and they need something more? Going beyond Ireland, have bus services in the UK gone further in making things better for the driver?

Mr. John Murphy

The reason for the perspex screen was not antisocial behaviour but to protect from robberies. As the Deputy knows, the buses used to have cash many years ago. The norm was that if local drug users needed a few quid, they would jump on the bus and rob the driver. Putting the perspex screens in was initially to protect against that. Almost all of the buses are now cashless due to Leap cards and tickets. The amount of cash taken is very low and it goes into a safe. The screens were kept up to protect staff because the robberies were replaced by antisocial behaviour. I know what the Deputy is saying, which is that maybe the screens should be reinforced. However, the cab is the bus driver's office. Drivers or in it for eight hours of the day, so they do not want it to be like a prison, although we do want an element of safety to protect drivers. Drivers do not want it to look like they are behind a shield or metal bars. There is a fine line. Drivers still want some sort of freedom, but they want protection as well.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I thank Mr. Murphy for that perspective. Under the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 2003, if someone is before the court for causing bedlam in a certain shop or giving hassle outside Penneys, Dunnes Stores or wherever, the judge can order that person not to go back to the shop in question for a 12-month period or longer. I am sure many employees have had to sit in the dock of a court on occasion to give evidence about something that has happened. Have they, while representing Dublin Bus or Luas in court, ever stated they wanted a guy excluded from their services? Has that ever happened, or do they just have to face the persons down each time and accept him as a passenger?

Mr. John Murphy

I am not aware of a decision ever being taken in a court to either bar or try to attempt to stop somebody utilising public transport. I am not aware of that.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

Would Mr. Murphy be open to that?

Mr. John Murphy

Yes, they should be barred. Part of what we see as the charter or engagement, if we get the advisory council established, would be to have powers available to use against repeat offenders. There are known repeat offenders across all networks. There should be some type of action that can be taken to ensure these offenders are removed from the infrastructure or not allowed on it.

Going back to the Deputy's last question, one of our survey responses from our original survey might give the committee a flavour. This is a response from a driver. He said he had to endure two passengers racially abuse a female with no response from security. As a human morally, he wondered where he stood. He said this should not be accepted or tolerated in any walk of life but because he is a driver and the procedure is to stay in your cab at all times or potentially be reprimanded there is a catch-22. He said it was horrible to be in that situation. That was a driver who responded about having to be in a position where he could see and hear the abuse taking place on the vehicle he was operating but his training was to stay in the cab at all times and just radio through. He said that did seem right to him as a human being, but what was he supposed to do? These are the things facing employees across all public transport. I am not sure whether the Deputy was here when Ms Armstrong gave an earlier piece about the deterrent of seeing a garda or, we hope in future, a policing unit. Their presence and the knowledge they can enforce, detain, arrest and remove people from transport will be the biggest deterrent to alleviate the vast majority of problems that exist at the moment.

Mr. Tommy Wynne

If I can come in on that from Irish Rail's point of view, I know of a case where it happened that a person was removed from a train not far from where the Deputy lives. He was removed from the train and on the platform he started causing even more trouble. A staff member on the platform tried to calm him down and he chased them into the office and broke their jaw. Irish Rail brought that person to court. That was a local person, as was the staff member, so we can imagine him trying to avoid certain areas that person was in. Irish Rail brought him to court and got him barred from the station and the services for 12 months or 18 months. That time is up and that staff member was out sick. We talked about people being off ill for a long time. That staff member took it very badly, as you can imagine. It was not only the injuries he had but the mental side of it as well. He could not go back to that station. We had to get him somewhere else where he was not involved with passengers. It just shows it can happen and can be done. In fairness to Irish Rail, it publicised that as much as it could and said it was a big win, but that shows how rare it is and that it does not really happen. Think of the number of times it happens on the Luas. I travel on the Luas a lot, as well as buses, and the number of times it happens and nothing is ever done. They are taken off the service, the same as on the trains and the DART, but that is it. They are brought to the station and then let go. That was an extreme case and very rare, though it does happen sometimes.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

Yes, it is very worrying. My final question is to Mr. Wynne to build on that. I get the train an awful lot and it is comfortable and a lovely way to travel. It is so efficient, actually. People who do not travel on the train think it does not run on time, but it runs to the second; it is unbelievable. Very rarely something kicks off on the train and I have seen on Dublin Bus, the Luas and the DART a facility onboard where people can text. The witnesses must forgive me because while I am somewhat experienced with Dublin transport, I am not an expert in it. There does not seem to be any equivalent of the text system on Irish Rail. You can text if the bathroom is dirty or something is wrong in the carriage or a window is broken, but you cannot text ahead. There is usually a customer service agent on carriage A, which could be a long way down. I remember during the height of Covid someone going berserk on the train and a few passengers went down, but the guy causing all the trouble could overhear us talking to this person. There needs to be a more discreet thing. We have mentioned this to the chief executive, Jim Meade, when he has been in. From a workers' point of view, would the union welcome a discreet text system that would go straight to carriage A so the agent knows? The train is stopping someplace every 20 minutes, so surely the Garda could be at the next station to get the troublemaker off the train.

Mr. Tommy Wynne

Absolutely. We are totally in favour of that. The Deputy probably missed it earlier. The Deputy uses the train a lot, which is great, and it is a great service. It is much better than buses and the Luas, obviously. As I said to the Vice Chair earlier, it is only on a very small minority of services where you will have trouble-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Mr. Wynne is not allowed criticise anyone else. That is in the note.

Mr. Tommy Wynne

I did not criticise; I just said it is better. They are great as well, but the train is better. The Deputy is right it is on a very small minority of services. I would say 99% of the services are brilliant and there is no trouble whatsoever. There is a text service there, but as the Deputy said it is more used for something wrong on the train or no toilet facility or whatever. I would absolutely be in favour of that. We talk to Irish Rail. In fairness to it, it speaks to us regularly about the antisocial behaviour and we have meetings with it about safety and the behaviour. It tries to implement new initiatives, but we need more help and more policing as such. That is the point we are trying to make here.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I thank Mr. Wynne. If the Leas-Chathaoirleach will allow me one tiny last question-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Go on. But not five more; just one more.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

All credit to Dublin Bus, the service runs very late and it allows people to get home safely from a bar, nightclub or restaurant late at night. The issue with the inter-city buses and Irish Rail is you cannot really leave the capital after 9 p.m. at night, which is a pity when there is a big concert, match or whatever in Dublin. Not everyone can get a hotel. Jim Meade tells us it is complicated and certain hours at night are needed to maintain the track and I accept all this. I am wondering whether there is a second factor or reason. Would concern about having 200 people on a train at 11 p.m. or midnight be a concern for workers and drivers?

Mr. Tommy Wynne

No. Like I said, 99% of the time there is no trouble. Even on the light night trains that there are, there is no trouble. If there is security provided, whether that is police or security then yes absolutely. The Deputy probably knows that around Christmastime and the new year we run late-night services on the DART and suburban services. They do not go inter-city but suburban services increase and we run services during the night up to 1 a.m. and 2 a.m., so yes absolutely, the services could be provided.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I thank Mr. Wynne and thank the witnesses for everything they are doing.

Deputy Patrick Costello

I thank our guests for coming in and raising these incredibly important issues. At the heart of the matter they are about driver safety and public safety. We are seeing a long overdue and much-needed investment in public transport in recent years. We could do with getting more into public transport, but there has certainly been a big increase in investment in public transport. However, it is pointless if no one is going to use it and no one is going to use it if they do not feel safe. There has been discussion at this committee of the huge issues with reliability of services and staffing has been pointed to as one of the issues with reliability. We are never going to be able to have reliable services or expand services if we cannot retain staff because they do not feel safe or if people will not join in the first place because they feel it will not be safe. For all sorts of reasons we need to make that modal shift to public transport, but it is only going to happen if drivers and customers feel safe. Anything we do to improve SIPTU members' safety is going to impact on improving the customers' safety. I welcome the investment by this Green Minister but we need to start investing in the safety of drivers and the general public.

I want to explore a couple of things. I apologise for being late, but Ms Armstrong was mentioning something as I was coming in. She talked about the garda getting on, flashing their ID and the benefit of having that uniformed officer. That speaks to the need for the transport police she was talking about. How does that work? Is that ad hoc, planned, or does it depend on the local gardaí?

I have several questions so I will throw them all out and let the witnesses come back. Ms Armstrong also talked about the protocol of calling through to control looking for help. I have talked to people about buses being stopped because of antisocial behaviour and everyone is told to get off while the driver waits for the gardaí. They talk about it impacting on services, but I am curious about the response of the Garda. Is it quick enough and is it sufficient? I will ask those two for the minute and come back to the other ones afterwards.

Ms Suzanne Armstrong

The instance I was talking about was gardaí going home. It is if someone sees them flash their badge. Obviously if they get on in uniform it is great, but I have very rarely had that. On the responsiveness of the Garda, if I have to pull the bus over for antisocial behaviour I call control and then control calls the Garda, the offenders are gone and all the passengers are gone onto another bus. The Deputy was saying buses cannot turn up and this is why. Services are getting pulled. The only time I have ever had gardaí out - and they were out in less than 15 minutes, I would say - was the time I had a bike thrown under the bus. I had called control because obviously I could not move anywhere.

When the gardaí got there, I asked, "Did Dublin Bus ring you?". By pure coincidence, one of the gardaí who turned up was the daughter of the controller I was talking to. The gardaí said that it was not Dublin Bus but rather a resident who had called. I knew a bike had been thrown under the bus. I had stopped but I had hit it. The resident had called and said that a kid was on the bike and had gone under the bus. That is why the gardaí had arrived so quickly. Other than that, I could have been waiting a couple of hours. That is not the fault of the gardaí; there is just not enough of them.

Deputy Patrick Costello

That also speaks to the need for a dedicated transport team. Ms Armstrong mentioned how effective it can be if there is a uniformed garda on a bus. If a garda is supposed to be walking a beat then surely public transport should be part of it. Stepping on to the bus, riding a few stops and stepping off again should be part of the beat. Certainly, in Dublin, in an urban environment, it could easily be part of the beat. It might be a bit harder on an inter-city train, that is, to get on and go for a few stops.

Reference was made to the advisory council available under the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008 and how it has never been established. What reasons have been given for this? What would the witnesses' response be to those reasons or have these reasons even been given?

Another thing related to this is the transport charter. I would love to hear a bit more about this. Where would it sit among the other initiatives? Who would write it? Would it come from the council, the Department or An Garda Síochána? Who would be responsible for drafting, maintaining and enforcing this transport charter?

Mr. Adrian Kane

I will let Mr. Murphy come in on the transport charter in a moment. Regarding the advisory council and the fact that it has not met, we met the Minister for Transport in trying to advance the three prongs of the campaign. The first thing we see as being really important is to have a dedicated transport police force, in whatever form. The Deputy missed the earlier part of the debate when we said that we were not being prescriptive as to whether that is full gardaí, specialised in transport, or whether it is something like the airport police, or the transport police in the UK. At the weekend, the Tánaiste said he was of the view that we should introduce transport police. That was not the view we got from the leader of the Deputy's party. Three Departments overlap on the issue. On the question of the advisory council, we need to have a form of engagement that makes sense. Even on this issue, it would be the responsibility of the Department of Justice and then the Department of Transport. As I say, on this occasion, if the Tánaiste is the one leading this, we need to have some sort of formal structure. Mr. Murphy might be more specific in relation to the fact that this advisory council has not met and the charter.

Mr. John Murphy

We have put this question to successive Ministers. While we did not get a specific reason, we were told that times have moved on. We met the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, recently and he said we will have to look at how that may be structured. It might not be as simple as saying it is under the 2008 Act and now it has to be delivered in such a prescriptive way. We are not being prescriptive.

On the charter issue, I had a call yesterday from a member of the Department of Transport team who we engaged with when we met the Minister. I attended the National Sustainable Mobility Forum last year in Athlone. It is due to meet again at the end of May. The Department official outlined that a meeting was desired after the forum because many stakeholders were involved in it. It would include SIPTU, the Department, the CEOs and senior management of the various operators and the National Transport Authority, NTA, which needs to be front and centre in all of this. We should utilise this time when we are all together to put an hour aside to have a look at the charter and see what we can come up with. It needs everyone's input. There is no point in SIPTU trying to write one that does not gain traction with the other stakeholders. There is no point in the NTA dictating one and there is no point in one or more of the operators doing different charters. We see it as a collaborative and social dialogue-type of mechanism, that all the interested parties sit down and try to agree. We might not agree on the minutiae but at least if we had the dialogue, we could share our experience and expertise in order to get a charter we can all live with going forward.

Deputy Patrick Costello

Unfortunately, we are all too familiar with cross-departmental issues. A lot of buck passing can happen and things go around and around. The typical response to those things is to try to create a Cabinet sub-committee or a cross-departmental structure or a new panel. The advisory panel seems to fit exactly in that. If there are problems with cross-departmental issues, with everyone blaming someone else, then it underlines the need for the advisory council and the formal structures to help with that. The council is clearly something we need.

Perhaps I should have asked this question earlier. The survey covered Aircoach, Bus Éireann, Dublin Bus, Go-Ahead Ireland, Irish Rail and Luas. Is there a difference in experience of the members across those companies? Are particular areas of work more prone to anti-social behaviour and in need of more intervention than others?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We did touch on that already, but go ahead.

Deputy Patrick Costello

If it has been touched on already, I will get the answer from the transcript later.

Mr. John Murphy

Front-line workers deal with the public on a daily basis.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We were saying that there are certain routes and certain times of the day and week-----

Mr. John Murphy

There could be a flashpoint anywhere, but there are certain locations where anti-social behaviour is more prevalent. I mentioned the experience of west Tallaght around 16 months ago when our services were pulled because of the constant anti-social behaviour, particularly in the later hours of the day after, 6 p.m. In fairness, we do have community engagement in which SIPTU, gardaí, community service gardaí, the operators and local activists are involved. That helps to alleviate and deal with the problems. We need to take a sort of helicopter view looking down from above, that can be utilised where it is needed and not just pinpoint one area and maybe-----

Deputy Patrick Costello

Equally, the information could be used to make responses by the gardaí or a transport police service more efficient by highlighting areas.

Mr. John Murphy

Definitely.

Deputy Patrick Costello

Reference was made to further surveys being done on drug use and racial abuse on public transport. I am glad that the members of the committee will be kept informed on this. I ask that all Members of the Oireachtas be emailed on this or even just myself. I would love to hear the answers to those questions.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

If you ask nicely, Deputy, we might even give you the answers.

Deputy Patrick Costello

I am interested in following up on those as well.

Mr. Adrian Kane

I can give three or four of the headline points from the survey because we have only finished compiling it in the last couple of days. Some 80% of people believe illegal drug use has got worse in the past 12 months. Of respondents, 75% witness illegal drug use several times a month or more frequently. Some 20% witness it on a daily basis and 50% witness drug dealing two to four times a month, or more frequently. Some 73% of respondents said they have felt threatened or unsafe due to drug use on the services. Three quarters of people of colour or from ethnic minority backgrounds have faced discrimination or harassment. Three quarters of that tends to be verbal abuse, with 32% of it being physical. Some 70% of those respondents said it was on a monthly or a more frequent basis, so the situation is pretty bad.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Was the survey size similar?

Mr. Adrian Kane

Yes, it was 650. We can send that on to the committee. We have copies here as well if the Deputy wants to take one away.

Deputy Patrick Costello

Thanks, I will. I have a quick follow-up question

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Deputy, you were on your last point about five points ago.

Deputy Patrick Costello

I know but the committee still has a few hours to run. It is fine; do not worry.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I might let you in for a second round but you are not getting a 20-minute slot when everyone else got ten. Your last point, please.

Deputy Patrick Costello

If there is another member here, I will be happy to-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I am here. One more point, Deputy.

Deputy Patrick Costello

Regarding drug dealing, there are many cameras on a bus. The drivers witness the dealing and it is recorded. Perhaps this is more of a question for Dublin Bus, but is there a procedure for reporting that to the Garda? It is a crime and there is evidence of the crime. Is it being reported and followed up, is it being reported and nothing happens, or is there a breakdown in communication? Streamlining some of this communication could be another argument for why we need dedicated transport police.

Mr. Stephen Millane

The amount of drug dealing on buses has become so frequent that it is the norm now. If drivers reported everything, there would always be buses pulled over to the side of the street, and that is not an option. There are some brazen people who jump onto a bus and do drugs downstairs, but it generally happens upstairs. They roll joints, shoot up and so on. The driver has access to the cameras, but he or she is driving the vehicle, watching the road, dealing with passengers, pulling in, pulling out, etc. The driver is not watching what is happening upstairs. The only time a driver intervenes is when another passenger reports it or there is an incident. Drug use happens regularly. Even other passengers witness it regularly. That is on top of the antisocial behaviour that also happens.

Deputy Patrick Costello

I was referring more to stopping at the end of a run, downloading the recording and so on. I will follow this matter up separately. I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach for his indulgence and patience.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That is no problem. The Deputy is welcome. I am glad that Deputy Kenny has returned. He missed Ms Armstrong’s anecdote about how, when she went over a speed ramp, all the drugs on the upper deck scattered all over the place and she was worried that people were about to come down and attack her because they had lost their product. It seems to be happening more often than we might like.

Deputy Martin Kenny

I thank the witnesses for their contributions. The survey brings a stark realisation to us all about the situation that people – workers in particular, but also ordinary travellers on services – have to cope with daily. The committee works on the issue of public transport constantly and we want more people to use it for a range of reasons, for example, climate change and how a modern society needs to have public transport at its core. For public transport to work, though, it has to be reliable, frequent, affordable and safe. These are the key elements we need to see in place.

The committee has discussed safety. Prior to joining this committee, I was spokesperson for justice and I raised this issue in that context as well. The justice committee had long debates on having a public transport police service and I have campaigned on that proposal for a number of years. It needs to be a division of An Garda Síochána to have the correct powers to be able to arrest and detain people and to imbue it with the same sense of respect for the security services. In other jurisdictions, having a person in a uniform might work. In Ireland, it takes a little more than someone in a uniform for people to sit up and take notice. That has been my experience, and it is shared by most.

A finding in the report that probably came as no surprise to any of us was that 80% of people working in these services had encountered antisocial behaviour or worse. In some cases, it was brutality, with people assaulting workers. It was not just a case of someone being rude. It was much more than that. This needs to be spelled out because people sometimes trivialise the issue. This is not trivial stuff. This is people being extremely violent towards those who are providing a service for them and their communities. That needs to be acknowledged.

Another finding in the report was telling. I have encountered i. I am referring to the attitude towards people of colour or people from different ethnic backgrounds, be they passengers or workers. This is a societal issue that we need to address. The antagonism towards immigrant workers and others from abroad is something that we need to correct quickly. It is out of control.

The witnesses will find general support for their proposal from this committee and the wider Houses. It was mentioned that the Tánaiste had stated at the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis at the weekend that he was moving in this direction, which I welcome. I have just returned from the Chamber, where we were discussing road safety. The Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, was present. During the previous question time with the Minister of State or the session before that, I raised the issue of transport policing and he told me that none of the providers of the services, the Garda or anyone else felt it was necessary, there were other means available and blah, blah, blah. That position seems to be changing, though, which I welcome. The position of one of the Government parties is changing, but they all need to change their positions. The witnesses and this committee need to put pressure on them to ensure that happens.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We actually tabled a motion in the Seanad about a transport police force, but we were told that our motion would not be supported by the Government. It was the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, at the time, not the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers.

Deputy Martin Kenny

We need to recognise that the travelling public and the people who work in the service cannot all be wrong. I welcome the report and concur with everything in it. The witnesses have had a long day in Leinster House. They will get Sinn Féin’s support and we will do everything we can in the campaign to ensure this happens.

Mr. Adrian Kane

I welcome the Deputy’s comments. The Tánaiste’s comments were significant. We will not dine out on that promise, though. It is up to us to keep the pressure on the entire political system to ensure this is delivered. We have deliberately not been prescriptive. Within our own ranks, we probably have different views on what the correct model of dedicated policing service is. Something we should bear in mind is the cross-Border element and a joined-up way of thinking, North and South. We have discussed how what we want is not a uniformed response to all elements of the report, but a uniform one. That is what a policing unit looks like. Taking an all-island approach to this should be borne in mind.

Mr. John Murphy

There are shared services between Dublin and Belfast with Northern Ireland Railways and Irish Rail. If we are to progress this, what that element might look like needs to be considered.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Yes. There is some work to be done in that regard. There are proposals for more investment in cross-Border rail services and there is the all-island rail review. As part of the work, we need to ensure that such services are frequent, affordable, reliable and safe. The witnesses’ colleagues in the other trade union representing rail workers, the NBRU, have campaigned on this matter as well. I am not sure whether they have appeared before this committee on the issue, although they may have.

We recognise that this is an ongoing issue, one that has not just affected workers, but hurt them and destroyed their livelihoods. People have had to retire from their jobs because of this. We all acknowledge that.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Deputy may have been missing when Mr. Wynne referred to someone’s jaw being broken and being off work. Since the other person involved was local, the worker had to be put in a different area because he would otherwise have regularly been encountering the person who had assaulted him. The Deputy is right about antisocial behaviour sometimes being trivialised. Someone muttering a word is bad, but it is much worse if someone is physically assaulted, ends up getting a needle in the leg, arm, hand or wherever, is out of work and feels terrified about going to work. We all want public transport to be safe, not just for the staff, but for everyone who wants to use it. We are trying to get more people to use it. I know people who are reluctant to use public transport because of the potential for conflict. As Mr. Wynne stated, everything is fine more than 99% of the time.

However, it just takes one incident for somebody to be vulnerable, whether it is a staff member or equally a passenger. It could be life-changing for a staff member or passenger if somebody comes on with a knife, stabs them with a syringe that is infected or, God forbid, if a rock were thrown at a bus, the bus driver loses control and people are injured. These things, unfortunately, can happen.

Deputy Martin Kenny

The week before last there was an incident on the rail line between Dublin and Sligo, when a person had to be taken off. These incidents should be rare. They should be outliers and not common. That is the problem. They have become common.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Again, drug-taking should not be considered normal.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Absolutely not.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is almost so normalised that it is a case of "It is what it is". With all those cameras and all that evidence, and I am not saying the representatives should be doing this, somebody should be processing and deterring people from doing this because 16 cameras are keeping an eye on them. I am not sure everybody knows there are that many cameras keeping an eye on pretty much every seat and aisle on every bus at this stage. That is a positive over the old days when there was a mirror on the side of the bus or whatever it was.

Deputy Martin Kenny

The policing side of it has been discussed, but the report is more about what has happened. Policing is one of the deterrents but there are probably other measures as well. In the context of technology, protective screens and all of that, is there also work to be done on some of our modes of transport that could be done an awful lot better? If somebody is feeling vulnerable in a carriage, how does that person alert staff that he or she is in a vulnerable place, for instance, if two guys are at the back of that carriage and he or she does not feel safe? How does that passenger alert somebody?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

At the conference, I saw that some of the new rail carriages will be like those used for the Luas, with five carriages all opening into each other. Everybody will be able to see everybody else rather than just being in a carriage with somebody who is committing antisocial behaviour. At present, people are trapped in a carriage if they are in the wrong carriage with someone. It is to be hoped the design of these carriages will help longer term.

Deputy Martin Kenny

We also want to see more services being available later at night for people in the night-time economy. All of that kicks in. If services are to be available at later hours, there will have to be better security and deterrents.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

There is an element of engaging with local authorities. Wherever the bus terminus is, or at the end of route, the area should be well lit, clean and not subject to its own antisocial behaviour. I do not know if this is still the case but such areas were historically a little remote. Sometimes, there is not a lot of passive surveillance, whereas there is in other areas. A driver parked up for 20 minutes or half an hour will feel safer in some places than others. We are all conscious of the fact that even though the cash-robbing element of bus behaviour, I presume, does not happen at all - the bus has a big steel box and hardly anyone is using cash anyway - there is still a lot of other bad behaviour.

It is important to make the point that more than 500,000 people in the Irish workforce were not born on this island. Where would we be without all those people in the public transport system, the health system, the education system, and hospitality and retail? They deserve to be able to live and work in an environment where they feel as safe as everybody else. Does Deputy Kenny wish to add anything?

Deputy Martin Kenny

No, that is fine.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Do any of our guests have anything else they wish to contribute or make a point on?

Mr. John Murphy

I will say a couple of things on the Vice Chairman's summing up. While screens are on all Dublin Bus vehicles, not every public transport vehicle has them. Some of the Bus Éireann fleet still do not have screens. Bus Éireann vehicles take cash, probably a lot more cash than-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Aircoach is not as susceptible to antisocial behaviour, but its buses do not have any screens.

Mr. John Murphy

It took Covid to increase the number of screens on vehicles outside the Dublin Bus fleet, including Go-Ahead and Aircoach vehicles. Mr. Millane raised the matter of where we will stop on this. Will we be driving armoured cars as public transport vehicles for security reasons? There has to be some interaction between passengers and drivers. Most interactions are positive and good. As Mr. Kane said, Dublin is probably one of the few cities, if not the only city, where people normally thank the bus driver as they get off, which is great. We want to encourage that positivity.

However, we need to look across the whole network. We have been told anecdotally for a number of years that the NTA is trying to have centralised complaints areas. Dublin Bus deals with complaints about its service, as do Bus Éireann, Irish Rail and Luas. If it is moving to that model, which makes sense, surely that model can include surveillance, reaction to antisocial behaviour and policing.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It should also include pursuing persistent offenders, who clearly think they can just do what they like regularly and cause trouble.

Mr. Stephen Millane

What we are tasked to do is public transport. That is what we want to do. As I said, forums on antisocial behaviour are in place for certain flashpoint areas outside the city and, as a result of them and the number of incidents, protocols are in place. If a bus is damaged or attacked, or an incident takes place, buses are generally withdrawn from an area for an hour. If there is a second incident during the night, they are withdrawn from the area for the rest of the night. It is unfortunate because a minority of people are causing disruption for hundreds of people-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

In their own communities, by and large.

Mr. Stephen Millane

Yes, in their own communities. When buses were withdrawn from west Tallaght for a number of months, a number of people who congregated at the Square or certain areas then had to walk to their homes. That was causing a problem in itself for the Garda because there were a number of robberies. If we are to resolve this issue by having a deterrent and enforcement of policing of transport, it would resolve many other problems this behaviour causes. It is important.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

At ones stage, more than 20 years ago, people were acting the eejit at UCD and services were being pulled out after a certain time. People got real very quickly about what they win versus what they lose.

I will make a couple of very small points. On the Garda response time, when drivers have to press the button or something is happening they feel needs a Garda response, how does that-----

Mr. John Doyle

Something popped into my mind as the Leas-Chathaoirleach was speaking. I had to ring the control room the other day to get a Garda van moved out of my way. It was blocking my way. This was the response I got-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Was this on a Luas line?

Mr. John Doyle

Yes. The response I got was that our control room is not allowed to ring an individual Garda station anymore. It has to ring the new call centre at Heuston South Quarter. Each time someone rings back to find out about an estimated time of arrival, ETA, or whatever, he or she has to go through the same process. Efficiencies were mentioned. That slows down the whole process because people have to keep ringing back and they never get a definitive answer on anything.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

If there is a Garda van on a Luas line, there is not much you can do about it.

Mr. John Doyle

No, there is not much you can do. The response time to come out of a Garda station to move a Garda van might be three minutes. All these people know the boundaries of each Garda station and where they all are. They are quite educated on how things work and so on. As Ms Armstrong said, response times are very slow.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

They are patchy.

Mr. John Doyle

They are very slow.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

If a driver on a bus in a part of the suburbs is pressing a button because something is happening, what is Ms Armstrong's experience of the response time?

Ms Suzanne Armstrong

Unless the situation were very serious, I would be reluctant to do that because what would I do with all the passengers? They have to get off, wait for the next bus, and the bus will be pulled from service. You could be waiting for two hours while the offenders are gone, as is the person who reported the incident to you, probably. He or she will not hang around so when the gardaí arrive, there is nothing for them to do. That is not their fault. They are thin on the ground.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

If Ms Armstrong does the last resort thing of stopping a bus and saying we are waiting for the Garda, these fellas just jump off.

Ms Suzanne Armstrong

They are gone. They will give you a bit more abuse but then they are gone. The gardaí will come out when they could have gone somewhere else.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

All the passengers-----

Ms Suzanne Armstrong

The passengers will be long gone. They will have got on the next bus.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The last thing elderly, immobile and older people want is to be stuck in the middle of nowhere, relatively speaking, trying to go home with their shopping or whatever it is.

Is fare evasion still a big thing? I know it is not the drivers' job to collect fares as such, but if somebody gets on and does not pay, what do they do about it? What can they do about it?

Mr. John Murphy

A Luas driver will not know whether passengers pay.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I know. I am not talking about the Luas but Dublin Bus. In the old days, you would not get past the door without handing over your coins. Does it happen much that people do not tap or pay?

Mr. Stephen Millane

There are certain areas where youths, especially, board the bus and just walk by the drivers. It is the same thing again. It is a lack of respect. That is why this campaign-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

They also know there is no deterrent.

Mr. Stephen Millane

That is why the SIPTU campaign is "Respect Transport Workers". These people walk on to the bus without paying their fare; drivers in certain areas say it is a regular occurence and it is not worth the hassle or the confrontation-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I can see it from the drivers' point of view, they are trying to drive in hostile enough traffic at times and get people from A to B, they cannot be responsible-----

Mr. Stephen Millane

They have to weigh up a situation-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

There were ticket inspectors and I know on the LUAS there are certainly people who check. Are there ticket inspectors on buses?

Mr. Stephen Millane

There is a revenue protection unit out there but they would not be as visible as they were in the past. Drivers have to weigh up a situation; if they have 60 - 70 people on their bus and one or two youths get on without paying, are they going to upset everybody else and not bring them home or to their desired location? Sometimes it is better-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is a small percentage.

Mr. Stephen Millane

It would not be huge.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I do not know if the witnesses might have figures for the percentages of staff who are out on long-term sickness or illness because of either mental trauma or physical abuse they have encountered? Are there figures for that?

Mr. John Murphy

I do not think we would have access to those figures.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

You might know of people through your members who have been out. Mr. Wynne made reference to someone whose jaw was broken, that is shocking.

Mr. John Murphy

We do. I have dealt with a few Dublin Bus drivers who have been involved in incidents on a certain route and who have then been out and would not or could not countenance going back to that same route-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I can totally sympathise with that.

Mr. John Murphy

Where a driver is on their route or as they call it marked in, is a very big thing within Dublin Bus. However, some drivers got to that extreme where they just could not physically face driving that same route because they would have to encounter the same people and the same location. They had to move to a different location and a different service.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We have people here from LUAS and Dublin Bus and Irish Rail but SIPTU is representing Bus Éireann, GoAhead and Aircoach as well, they are bringing the experience from everybody to the table. I would like to thank SIPTU and all of the witnesses who turned up today for their participation in today's meeting. I would like to thank them and all of the people who work in public transport for everything they do because we would all, to a greater or lesser extent, be absolutely lost without it. If public transport was not there the level of congestion could not be lived with. Everybody who uses public transport is benefiting those who are still driving as much as they are benefiting themselves. I thank the witnesses for what they are doing and there will be an opportunity for further engagement if they would like it. Equally we will bring this issue to the attention of the NTA the next time they are in, we will be asking them about it.

There is certainly scope to deal with the three points made by the witnesses; the charter, the establishment of the National Transport Authority advisory council and indeed the question of a policing force. Certainly from a Fianna Fáil perspective, we in the Seanad had a motion down looking for a dedicated public transport police. We did not get much Government support - I would put inverted commas around that - even though we are a Government party. Work is constantly going on; we did our own survey about anti-social behaviour in Dublin on public transport. Everything we are all doing, particularly what the witnesses have done today, is very important in highlighting the issue and I thank them for that.

The next meeting of this committee will be a public meeting next Wednesday, 24 April. I thank you all.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.23 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 24 April 2024.