Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 19 Apr 1923

Vol. 1 No. 21

PUBLIC HOLIDAYS.

Mr. MacLYSAGHT

The motion standing in my name is as follows:—

"That a Committee of the Seanad be appointed to endeavour to reach agreement as to the dates upon which Bank Holidays in Saorstát Eireann should fall, and that the further stages of the National Holidays Bill be postponed until the Committee has reported.

"The Committee to consist of Senators Jameson, Esmonde, Douglas, O'Farrell, Duffy, McKean, Bennett, and MacLysaght."

Since I raised this question some time ago it has received an extraordinary amount of criticism, some favourable. There have been complaints that I did not make all the Catholic holidays Bank holidays and some have complained to the opposite effect. As regards the opposite criticism I find myself variously described as a backwoodsman who comes from a remote part of the country interfering with the affairs of bankers and other business men about which I know nothing. Others refer to me as a sinister Papal agent trying to force Catholicity down people's throats. These are somewhat foolish. In regard to the religious point, what I am really interested in is having holidays suitable to Ireland, and it happens that this country keeps Catholic holidays and consequently I selected one or two such holidays. I do not know in a country where Protestant employers have Catholic workers that such employers find anything sectarian in the fact that their workers keep Catholic holidays. The least said about this matter the better. As regards banking objections where these are real genuine ones, and not a cloak for religious objections, they deserve every sort of consideration, and they will get them from me. For example, it was brought before my attention that the 29th June is the day upon which half-yearly accounts are made up, and so it would be a very bad day for a Bank Holiday. I am not sure that it is necessary for general holidays to be on the same days as Bank Holidays. On New Year's Day the banks are closed, and nobody is much inconvenienced.

Mr. GUINNESS

On a point of order are we on the Committee Stage or the Second Reading?

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

We are on neither. It would neither be in order nor would it be prudent to go into the merits of the Bill.

Mr. MacLYSAGHT

What I am trying to do is to show that there is a case for a Committee. Some people think the Bill is a bad one, and I am trying to make it out a good one. You seem to assume that all are against the Bill, but I know a great many are in favour of it.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I am indifferent on the subject, but this is rather a peculiar procedure. You have a motion that your own Bill be referred to Committee without having put it down for a Second Reading.

Mr. MacLYSAGHT

You are not stating facts. I am not suggesting that my Bill should be referred to Committee at all, but that the whole question of holidays be so referred.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

As you have said that I did not put the position correctly, I shall put it plainly. This Bill is not on the Agenda at all, and instead of putting it on the Agenda, and then bringing forward the motion that it should be referred to a Committee, or that a Committee should be appointed, and, pending a report, that your Bill should be held up, you have not put your Bill on the Agenda at all. That is the reason why Senator Guinness asked what we were discussing. I did not make any objection, because I thought your speech would be very short.

Mr. MacLYSAGHT

Before persons can ask for a Committee to be set up on a subject, presumably they have to show reason why that subject should be discussed. If I stood up here and asked the Seanad to form a Committee on a question of holidays in this country without giving any reasons as to why the existing holidays are not satisfactory, I might well be accused of asking them to do a thing of which they know nothing. But for the interruption of Senator Guinness, I should have finished my speech long ago.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

What I have said is that while you are giving your reasons very briefly for asking a Committee to be appointed, you should not go into the merits or demerits of this Bill.

Mr. MacLYSAGHT

I did not mention the Bill at all. I was going to say that in parts of Ireland the 12th July is kept as a holiday. So far I have not referred to the Bill, I have been very careful not to do so. I have endeavoured so far to show there was a case for not going on with the ideas which I had before. I also want to show there is a case for a re-consideration of the whole question of holidays. I know some people believe that the present holidays are perfect. I want to see Irish holidays, but there are people who want to keep English holidays. I ask those who want English holidays to consider Good Friday. I want to ask them—do they want us to keep Good Friday as England does? Last Good Friday in England they had eight First Class League matches, with special trains, and they kept everything exactly like Easter Monday. I do not think we want that in our country. I could show, if I had time, that last Good Friday in Dublin was a very miserable sort of day. People are not all temperamentally inclined to go to churches all day long. We had the factories working. We had some of the offices open and some closed; trains stopped but trams working, and so on. I shall say no more about it, though I would like to say a lot more. The very fact of Good Friday being so unsatisfactory and becoming so English-like is enough to justify the consideration of the question of holidays, apart from the arguments which I put forward on the First Reading. As a matter of fact I think if this Bill were rejected on the Second Reading that that would be much more likely to be interpreted as a matter of religious bigotry than the fact of putting forward the Bill which has been so interpreted. I apologise for the first time for having kept the Seanad for more than five minutes.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

You have not complied with my request to state the quorum. I have to ask you to do that in accordance with the Standing Orders.

Mr. MacLYSAGHT

I should like to add one thing as to the personnel of the Committee which comprises eight, and the quorum of which might reasonably be four. I packed that Committee against myself. I observed that in the Seanad there were three Banks represented, and I selected three people as being Directors of these Banks. I realise now that I ought to apologise and do apologise to the Directors of the Bank of Ireland for calmly selecting one of the two, and putting him down on the Committee. Probably, the other one is very thankful to me. I had forgotten there were two at the time. I chose two Labour representatives—one clerical and one manual. I chose Senator McKean as representing Commerce in a different direction from the Bank Directors, and I chose only two wretched agriculturists.

Mrs. WYSE POWER

I beg to second the motion, and would like to say that I think a Committee to regulate the holidays of Ireland, whether we call them Government or Bank Holidays, is a proper thing. They are holidays at all events, and people look on a holiday as a day of enjoyment and of rest. There is one thing to be said for the Mondays that occur—Easter Monday and Whit Monday and the first Monday in August. You may call them English holidays, but they are holidays upon which people enjoy themselves. When they take these holidays the working people get the advantage of the half-day on Saturday, the Sunday, and the Monday together, rather than one isolated day in the middle of the week. I know the Committee would bear that in mind, because the labour members are on it.

Mr. DOUGLAS

I think Senator MacLysaght has done the wise thing in the action he has taken. We are not discussing the Bill, but it is a fact that the Bill which was introduced here raised the question of holidays, and there has been a good deal of discussion on them. I cannot agree with the Senator in his Bill, and would be opposed to it. At the same time I recognise that in suggesting that an effort should be made to see if there could be a general agreement before he went any further he has acted wisely. I do not know what he will do after that, but I think we would be well advised to agree to this in view of the whole circumstances. If it had not been for the Bill, possibly we would not have regarded the matter as urgent.

Mr. GUINNESS

Is it not very unusual to appoint a Committee of a Senate or any other legislative body to report on a Bill that has only been read a First Time?

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

It is not. You see the resolution is adroitly drafted to avoid that.

Mr. MacLYSAGHT

It is, because I drafted it.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

It is not proposed that they should report on the Bill at all. A Committee is to be appointed to endeavour to reach an agreement as to certain dates, and the Bill in the meantime is to be hung up.

Mr. GUINNESS

This is a private Bill, and I should think that a private Bill ought to be piloted through its various stages by the author of the Bill, and not by a Committee.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

Again I would remind the Senator that the Committee is not to pilot the Bill through— that may be its ulterior object—but the Committee is to report on a definite matter, and meanwhile we are to hear no more of the Bill until we get the report.

Motion put and agreed to.

Mr. JAMESON

Surely we are not bound to serve on that Committee simply because our names have been put down?

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I am glad you called attention to that. I would not have allowed the motion to be put, only I was under the belief that the Senator, before putting down the names of the members, had procured their consent to act. No member of the Seanad is bound to act on a Committee merely because another member suggests he should be upon it. Before any Senator proposes that A, B, or C should act upon a Committee, he ought to try and get their consent to act. I assumed that all the Senators mentioned had consented to act.

Mr. MacLYSAGHT

I am afraid my inexperience has again put me into difficulties. I was under the impression, equally, that the opposition to this matter was really genuine, and that it was because the Bill was not suitable for certain reasons. I confess I assumed, therefore, that those people whom I knew to be in opposition would be perfectly willing to come and give us the benefit of their objections around a table in order that this Bill, which is not the emanation of my cheerful mind, but of the minds of quite a large number of people, might be made into a better Bill.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

If there is any Senator present whom it is proposed to put on the Committee and who does not wish to act upon it, now is his time to say so.

Mr. JAMESON

That is what I am endeavouring to do, because I object to the whole procedure of appointing a Committee on such a matter, and I certainly would not serve on that Committee. I am quite willing to come here and take part in a debate on the Bill, and give my reasons for opposing it. I have already done so. Senator MacLysaght has paid me the compliment of putting me on the Committee. While being quite anxious to help him with all the knowledge I can give him I certainly think it is a most improper thing to appoint a Committee to sit on a Bill of this kind unless the Seanad have by passing the Second Reading said it was worthy of debating. To bring it up like this without any information as to whether such a Bill is going to meet with the approval of the Seanad and to bring it forward on the report of a Committee seems to me great waste of time. I certainly am opposed to it, and I can hardly be expected to act on the Committee.

Mr. O'FARRELL

I agree that Senator Jameson may be quite right technically, but I would have thought that in an assembly largely composed of gentlemen some more courteous way of withdrawing could have been adopted. This was on the Order Paper for two days in succession and any Senator who objected to act might, I think, have gone to Senator MacLysaght and said so. There is no use in trying to score on points that have no value at the expense of those who may have overlooked a technical point.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

It is really a matter of substance. I am not talking of this particular motion or Committee, but Senators will find it more convenient before using the name of another Senator and putting it on a Committee to find out if the Senator is willing to act. That is where the matter of courtesy comes in. It is a matter of courtesy to the Seanad.

Mr. O'FARRELL

I quite agree with that part.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I have put the motion and I will exclude the name of Senator Jameson.

Mr. MacLYSAGHT

I am sorry for that.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

You suggest four as a quorum?

Mr. MacLYSAGHT

Yes.