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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 4 Jul 1923

Vol. 1 No. 30

THE DOWLING CASE. - MOTION BY SENATOR COLONEL MOORE.

"That in the opinion of the Seanad the British Government should release or hand over to the Irish Government Joseph Dowling, an ex-private of the Connaught Rangers, of Irish nationality, arrested in Ireland, who is at present undergoing a life sentence of penal servitude in England in respect of an offence, political or quasi-political, committed prior to the Anglo-Irish Treaty, and that in passing this Resolution, the Seanad has in mind (1) the International and Constitutional aspect of the case and (2) the adverse effect on the harmonious relations between Ireland and Great Britain produced by the continued retention of this prisoner.
"That the Government be requested to forward this Resolution to the British Government."

The resolution I have to bring before the Seanad follows to a certain extent upon the Amnesty Act passed by the Oireachtas last December. The object of that was to pass an act of oblivion on the troubles and hostile acts that occurred during the struggle for Irish liberty. It was hoped and expected that the British Government would reciprocate our friendly salute and that amity and good-will would arise, so that a new era of trust and confidence might replace feelings of hatred and revenge which these acts had aroused. Nothing came of that Amnesty Act, as far as the other side was concerned, except that a question was asked in the House of Commons as to whether it was the intention of the Government to pass such a bill and the answer there was that it was not, that a statement on amnesty had been made some time previously and that nothing more was required. A little later, about January, some Senators and some officers of the Connaught Rangers, who were principally concerned in this matter, sent a memorandum to the English Government asking that all Connaught Rangers and all soldiers who were imprisoned in England should be released. A week or a fortnight afterwards all the Connaught Rengers who were concerned in a certain breach of good order in India on account of Ireland were actually released. All soldiers were let free with the exception of Private Dowling of the Connaught Rangers, whose case was somewhat different from the others. Some of us did not think that that was quite fair, and Senator Sir B. Mahon, another officer and myself went to London to endeavour to extend that amnesty to Private Dowling. We asked for an interview with the Secretary for War, and the reply we received was that it was a Cabinet question that had already been decided and could not now be changed. I would like to say that all the efforts that were made were made in the most conciliatory manner. Nothing was said to which exception could possibly be taken by anybody. The statements made did not altogether set out my views on the matter but we were determined that nothing on our part should impede the release or cause any friction whatever between the two countries. Everything was smooth and gentle. We were unable to get the release. I want the Seanad to understand that particularly so that they might know that everything that could be done was done by good-will and persuasion and that nothing remains now except to pass a resolution which will bring the matter prominently forward. Unless we do that we must be content that this man be left to his fate. He has already suffered five years' penal servitude; his sentence is for life and we know what that means. I regret very much if any unpleasant memories should be stirred up. We hoped that they would have been buried and not raised here, or elsewhere in Ireland, and it is only because the matter has been forced upon our attention by the failure of those across the water to reciprocate our good actions that we are bound to raise this question. We are bound also because I do not think that it is fair that one man only should bear the responsibilities, the pains and the punishment that have resulted from seven or eight years' trouble in this country— trouble not caused altogether by this country but caused to a great extent by people in the other country and caused by certain politicians and men who are now in high places—that one unfortunate private soldier, who is illiterate, and who did, as he thought, what was best at the time, should be made the one sufferer in the world for all the omissions and misconceptions and mistakes and bad actions that have taken place in the last few years. I have already circulated a statement on the subject which I daresay many Senators have read. We all remember that after a struggle of 100 years a Home Rule Bill was passed through the House of Commons and it was countered by certain politicians and, I am sorry to say, certain soldiers, by means of threats of war, threats to stop the operation of an Act of Parliament which had already been signed by the King. Just at this moment, when things were in a difficult and dangerous state, the Prime Minister of England came over to Ireland—for war had broken out, the Great War which lasted so many years—and he appealed to the people of Ireland to give their united support to help England; that as Ireland had been set free, there was no ill-feeling between the two nations and that we should join together in what he called opposition to the common enemy.

Mr. Redmond at that time joined in that demand. He went to the Volunteers— I was present at the time—and he made an appeal to them to join the Army and to go out and fight in France on behalf of Great Britain and Belgium. He said that Home Rule was on the Statute Book and could never be repealed and he appealed to them reciprocate. I remember what happened at that time. A great many of the old troubles disappeared in a moment. The Irish people are naturally a very generous people and are always ready to reciprocate any kindly action, and I believe they have been too ready to do so. They joined up, and they cheered both the Prime Minister and Mr. Redmond, and the result of it was that 25,000 Irish Volunteers joined the English Army to fight for England. I remember, and we all perhaps remember, a certain incident in Bachelor's Walk when soldiers shot down innocent people, and when an English Judge condemned that action. The feelings of the Irish people were hot and angry on the subject, when all of a sudden through the generous mood that the Irish take on occasions, this was forgotten and the same Regiment was cheered on its way down the North Wall to embark for France.

I might say Dowling was one of those men who joined with those ideas hot in his mind to go out and fight for the Allies. No sooner were these men safely established in France than the Home Rule Bill was hung up owing to certain threats. It was not withdrawn at that time, but it was dangled before the eyes of the Irish people as an inducement to them to enlist. It was not until the war was over that the Act was repealed. Some Irish people had great doubts at that time as to what would happen. They doubted these things would be done, And I remember them saying:—"These people will never give us Home Rule; it is our blood they want." It is not astonishing that, at a moment when suddenly what they had been struggling for for so many years was withheld, bitter feeling arose amongst those who went out fighting under all these fine promises. Certain prisoners were captured by the Germans and these men discussed these matters among themselves and Sir Roger Casement, a man of genius and eloquence, came to them. He also had his doubts, and an Irish American Priest came there and told them the same things.

It is not surprising, whatever may be the rights or wrongs of the matter, which I am not going into now, that they should from a brigade to fight for Ireland. I want it to be understood clearly that the objects of that brigade, as stated in a memorandum sent around at the time, was to fight for Ireland alone. Remember that in no single case was it stated that they should be asked to fight for any German aims. I dare say some people may think that a rather fine distinction. It would be difficult at that time to know how people could fight for Ireland without helping Germany, and I think that is so. The words were very taking and they jumped at them. I do not think the distinction much finer than the statement made by Sir Edward Carson that the Ulster Volunteers would fight against Home Rule but that they would not fight against the Imperial Parliament that passed Home Rule. Moreover I think that some of us who have followed the history of the war remember that the Czechs who were Austrian subjects were captured by the Russians and they formed battalions, brigades, and divisions, and fought for the Russians and that all these actions were highly applauded by the whole Allied Press and nowhere more than by the English.

All these people who were mixed up in these affairs are now in high places, but Dowling is undergoing penal servitude. He was the only one of those that joined that brigade to suffer in this way. The actions of all the other people were not only washed out, but they were not tried or charged, and they received back pay for all the time they were in Germany. You may think that very strange conduct, but it is a fact that they received back pay for the whole time they were in Germany, and Dowling has been sentenced to penal servitude for life. I myself am a soldier, and I am not inclined to minimise the question of mutiny or trouble of that sort. I know quite well how serious a crime it is under any conditions. I am not the person to advocate it. I was very much astonished when my soldier friends, people with whom I had served many years in the Army, said that they were not prepared to go to Ulster even if ordered.

I told them that I thought that an extraordinary thing, and I could never believe it from them. But that was the atmosphere I want you to understand in which the whole of this question arose and it is not surprising that men like Dowling were influenced by that, as were men of the highest standing in the Army, such as Lord Roberts and others. I am sorry to bring up these matters, but it is necessary in order that Dowling should not bear the whole weight of the misunderstandings and troubles of that time. Three charges were made against Dowling. One was that he enlisted into that Irish Brigade; the second was for having induced others to enlist in it; and the third was having embarked on board a certain ship with German civilians or sailors. The first charge is hardly denied; the second one, that he enlisted others, is denied. I have read through the Courtmartial carefully and it is a doubtful question, and the evidence was very contradictory. The third charge is a presumptive thing; possibly he did but there is no proof of it.

All that is known of this matter is that he was seen one morning early on a small island a quarter of a mile from the shore waving his hand and asking for help from some fishermen. The fishermen went out and brought him ashore. There was no boat with him, and there was no submarine there. All that is known is that he was brought on to the land. A boat was found a few days afterwards floating about. At the Courtmartial a great many questions arose about that boat, and experts said that it was a boat that no seaman or sailor would have constructed, Suppose that the man did actually land in a submarine, what of that? There were many others. I may say that Bailey, who actually did land with Sir Roger Casement, was not tried although he was actually arrested on land. The Attorney-General said that Bailey's objects were known. His objects were to get to Ireland and to escape and as he had nothing in his possession, and as they knew nothing about him they must presume that his objects were innocent, and he was not charged at all and was allowed to go free, and was reinstated in the army, and as far as I know is serving in the English army at the present moment. It seems strange that one man should be singled out from all the others. We now come to the question of Amnesty. At the time of the passing of the Treaty resolutions were passed by the British Government and the Irish Government proclaiming amnesty to all persons concerned in these affairs. General Collins issued this statement:—

"Now that a Treaty of Peace has been concluded between the people of Ireland and Great Britain, the Provisional Government hereby decree a General Amnesty in respect of all Acts committed in the course of the recent hostilities. This amnesty extends to all members of the naval, military, police or Civil Services of the British Government, and all other persons by whom acts of hostility against the Irish people were committed, aided or abetted, whether in Ireland or elsewhere, during the past six years and the full protection of the law will be afforded to all such persons against violence or injury of any kind. The Provisional Government appeal to all Irish citizens to respect this amnesty in the spirit and the letter. In this, as in other matters, we must not suffer ourselves to be outdone by our late enemies in seeking that the wrongs of the past may be buried in oblivion."

The English Government on the 12th January, 1922, issued their proclamation of amnesty as follows:—

"His Majesty the King has been pleased, at the moment when a Provisional Irish Government is about to take office, to grant a general Amnesty in respect of all offences committed in Ireland from political motives, prior to the operation of the Truce on July 11th last. The release of prisoners to whom this amnesty applies will begin forthwith. It is His Majesty's confident hope that this act of oblivion will act powerfully in establishing relations of friendship and goodwill between the people of Great Britain and Ireland."

I want to call attention to the fact that the Irish proclamation was very much more a generous one than that of the English Government. The Irish proclamation made no exception as to place or time, everybody was to be amnestied. The English Government limited itself to offences committed in Ireland and in that way by trying Dowling for acts committed in Germany they excluded him from the terms of the amnesty. I do not think they acted quite in the spirit in which the Irish people acted. I claim that Joseph Dowling was an Irish citizen and an Irish Soldier. He was arrested on Irish soil and it was there he should have been tried and if convicted he should have been imprisoned in Ireland and even though he was not, but on the contrary, was tried in England, still when the Treaty was signed, he should have been handed over to the Irish Government.

There seems to be an impression in some people's minds before the Treaty was signed the Army belonged to England. Everyone, and especially people who formerly held Unionist opinions, must repudiate that statement. Constitutionally the army was the army of the United Kingdom and not of England, and when under the Treaty the partnership was varied and the Union abolished, Ireland had a right to claim her share of all the assets of the United Kingdom which her resources, her brains and her soldiers had amassed. This claim extends far beyond Joseph Dowling's; he is a mere cypher in the total. When the Commission sits to assess the financial relations of the two countries and a claim is put forward against Ireland for a share of the debt, a counter claim must be made for her share of all the assets.

On a point of order may I call attention to the fact that the gallant Colonel is reading his speech, a thing he objects to very strongly in others?

AN LEAS-CHATHAOIRLEACH

It is not strictly in order for a Senator to read his speech.

If the Chairman calls my attention to this or any other matter I will be glad to conform to his view.

AN LEAS-CHATHAOIRLEACH

It is not in order for a Senator to criticise the action of another Senator who raises a point of order with the object of enforcing the rules of Debate. There is a rule that Senators shall not read their speeches. Of course reading quotations is a different matter, and it would be impossible for a Chairman to rule rigidly as to the matter of reading speeches.

I do not think it is a very courteous thing for the Senator to interrupt me in this way.

AN LEAS-CHATHAOIRLEACH

It is not in order to discuss the action of a Senator who calls attention to a matter on a point of order.

Very well. What I want to say is that Ireland has a right to claim everything that belongs to the country. Both the Treaty and the Constitution, affirm the equality of the two nations, and neither side has a right to claim the whole capital of the joint concern. The Irish soldiers ought to have been handed over, armed and equipped as they stood, and there should have been no talk of Ireland paying for arms which her taxes had paid for. She has paid twice. When the British Government disbanded the Irish Regiments, recruited in the Free State, and withdrew her own soldiers from Ireland, she made a practical admission of these rights. It is a breach of the Treaty to keep any Irish citizen or soldier in an English Prison for acts committed in Ireland and for Ireland. The English Judges have practically decided that question in reference to the Deportees. If the Irish people standing solid behind the Irish Government do not insist on the delivery of Joseph Dowling they surrender a national right, and the most sacred duty that any Government, and any Nation owes to its citizens. The Seanad at least will not be guilty of this default.

I beg to second Senator Colonel Moore's resolution. I do not intend going into the details or the arguments which Senator Moore has so ably put before the Seanád, some of which I do not understand, and many of which I do not agree with. As regards Dowling's release I give all my support to that, and in a few words I shall try to explain why I think the man is suffering an injustice and has been hardly treated. In my opinion, he is suffering an injustice because his treatment has been different to that of the 53 other men who were prisoners in the same category with him. Dowling was an old soldier, and a man who had always borne an excellent character in the Army. Even before 1914, he was an old soldier having 8 or 10 years' service. In view of that, I do not think it can be urged that he enlisted originally in the Army for any political purposes or, indeed, for any purpose except to serve his King and country. I make no excuse for the the offence Dowling committed. He was a prisoner in Germany and joined this Irish Brigade. I suppose that was as serious an offence as a soldier could commit but it has to be remembered there were 53 others equally guilty with him. The fact that he served on a submarine afterwards does not, in my opinion, add to the gravity of the offence, or should in any way disqualify him from receiving the same treatment as the other 53 men. They all committed the same offence, and whether one served in a submarine, or another walked about the streets in Berlin, they were all equally guilty, and ought to have received the same treatment. As regards their leaving Germany and joining the so-called Irish Brigade, they all probably had great temptations, and I suppose were offered great inducements. Dowling gave as his reason for going on the submarine that he thought he would have an opportunity for escaping. He was told that the submarine was going to the coast of Ireland, and he probably thought that the journey would afford him an opportunity to escape off the coast of Ireland which, as a matter of fact, he eventually did. There were no incriminating documents found on him. He had £50 in his possession, but that might be accounted for in this way, that he was probably given that sum of money to land for the purpose of buying provisions such as fresh meat, etc., for those on the submarine. Another aspect of the case is, the British Government, in 1918, made, political capital out of Dowling's arrest, and made him a much more important person than he really was. Dowling was imprisoned in the Tower of London, very much in the same manner as, say, the Duke of Buckingham, the Earl of Kildare or many other great nobles in olden days. He was compared to these nobles. Dowling was considered at that time a leading figure in the so-called German Plot. You all remember that in May, 1918, over 100 men were arrested. It was announced that they were arrested in connection with the German Plot, but not one of them was tried. I should point out that Dowling is an illiterate man, and that being so it is hardly likely that a very intelligent and far-seeing nation like Germany would employ an illiterate soldier from the West of Ireland on a mission to this country, a mission demanding very great intelligence, a very difficult and complicated mission which was to organise a rising in Ireland. I think we all agree it would be absurd to suggest that Germany would employ such a man on a mission of that kind. I am not making any excuse for Dowling for what he did, but I think all these men should have been treated alike. For that reason I think an injustice has been done to Dowling, and I think the British Government ought to release him and send him back to his home. He has now been in custody for over five years.

I desire very briefly to support this motion. I was one of those who actively supported the adjournment of the Amnesty Bill until the British Government actually reciprocated the policy of our own Government by releasing Dowling, and every other Irish prisoner coming within the same category, who might still be held in England. However, after the receipt of the Message from the Dáil and the very earnest request of the President that we should pass the Bill as the surest and quickest method of achieving the object we had in view, I, with the other members of the Seanad, felt that there was no other sensible alternative, and we agreed to pass the Bill. The President was very guarded in his language on that occasion lest he might be taken as promising that Dowling would be released on the enactment of the measure on this side. Nevertheless, I think he left us all under the impression that he and his Cabinet believed that the release of the prisoner would be a natural sequence to the passing of the Amnesty Bill. If that was the belief of members of the Government, it seems unfortunate that their confidence was very much misplaced. As has been pointed out by the proposer and seconder of the motion, Dowling's offence, even from the British standpoint, was no more serious than the acts committed by numerous other prisoners, all of whom have since been released without any demur. In fact, except from the point of view of giving him credit for what he might do if he got the chance, they fail to prove very much against him. Personally, I would not like to seek his release on that ground, but rather on the grounds of the desirability of wiping out all unpleasant reminders of an unpleasant past, and of reciprocating the action that has been taken by the Government of Saorstát Eireann in passing the Amnesty Bill for all who committed acts of violence against Ireland.

After all, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. English propaganda, very ably conducted by the late Lord Northcliffe, was directed immediately before, and for some time after, the capture of Dowling, towards inciting the Bohemian and Polish troops in the Austrian Army to mutiny and to fight against Austria for the freedom of their respective countries. Either that British policy was entirely wrong or immoral or, on the other hand, Dowling was doing the right and proper and patriotic thing, according to the British ideas of right and patriotism. Surely the desire for vengeance must have been satisfied by this time. The whole proposed expedition was a dismal failure. Sir Roger Casement was offered up on the scaffold amid the howlings of a savage mob. Dowling has been confined in an English dungeon for five years, and the British Government has since said that the cause for which these men were punished is a just one after all. We hear repeated statements made by British statesmen to the effect that they are desirous of giving the Free State Government every opportunity of giving full effect to the Treaty, and of establishing peaceful and cordial relationships between the two nations. Yet while these platitudes are being indulged in they succeed in keeping the Government on this side in a difficult and embarrassing situation, and they incur the daily risk of causing, at least, an open diplomatic rupture. And all this for the sake of inflicting a mean and petty vengeance on one helpless man. The wrong is none the less serious because it is confined to one humble individual, and I hope that the Seanad will see its way to express its views in that respect by passing this resolution which, unfortunately, is the only method we have of expressing our views upon this case which never should have been dragged out to this extent.

I desire to support the motion, as on the occasion when the Amnesty Bill was before the Seanad I doubted the wisdom of holding up the Bill as a lever to procure the release of this man. I still think that the Seanad and the Government did the right thing in passing that Bill, which was intended to give legal effect to the proclamation of the late General Collins. However, I confess I was considerably disappointed and surprised that when the Bill was passed and the Connaught Rangers were released, that Dowling was still kept in penal servitude. I do not understand on what principle the British Government released the Connaught Rangers and refused to to release Dowling, whose offence could be no greater in British eyes than that of the soldiers who mutinied in India. My own impression was that Dowling's treatment was due to the whim of some highly-placed Die-hard who was determined to keep Dowling in captivity to show his contempt for the Treaty and the Free State and to keep up the temperature between the two countries. Now we learn that the continued imprisonment of Dowling is a result of the deliberate decision of the British Cabinet. This makes it all the more incomprehensible. As far as I know the British Government and the British Cabinet, in all other respects, have honoured the obligations of the Treaty fairly and honestly up to the present, and I do not think that we have any grounds of complaint against them. The case of Dowling is the one black spot, and it is the one black spot that will impair the good relations between the two countries, if it is not speedily removed. No one can deny that Dowling's offence, no matter what charges were formulated against him, was a political one, and political offences should have been wiped out by the Treaty and the Amnesty that followed it. That one political offender should be kept in prison afterwards is a breach of the Treaty, if not of the letter, at least of the spirit of it.

May I mention a couple of other cases, those of the warder Leonard, and three other men, who are undergoing life sentences for participating in the attempted escape of prisoners from Derry Jail. These men are still detained in penal servitude. They are citizens of the Saorstát and their crime, or their offence, had a right to be wiped out and they had a right to be amnestied by the amnesty that followed the Treaty. When one recollects the sacrifices that have been made by the Irish people and their Government, the amount of blood and treasure that they have poured out to honour the signatures of the plenipotentaries and to carry out the obligations of the Treaty, it is a poor compliment for all that they have undergone for the last eighteen months that the great British Empire should break faith with them in the small matter of refusing to release a poor soldier, whose only crime was that he tried to lend a hand in the fight which resulted in the establishment of the measure of freedom under which we sit here to-day, and the right which the British themselves justified when they signed the Treaty.

I wish to add a few words in support of the resolution so ably proposed by Senator Moore. I wish also to apologise to him for the interruption of his address. This is a case that should be very generously dealt with by the Government of Great Britain, the Mother of Parliaments and the Cabinet of that country. I expect several other Senators like myself were closely associated with the terrible tragedy of the war which was declared in 1914. Personally I was closely associated, through my family, with several of its fronts, from Gallipoli to Palestine, from Palestine to the plains of France and Flanders, and also for three weary years with those horrible German prison camps. Before coming up here I conversed with some of my friends, that were engaged in this conflict, with reference to this resolution, and I believe their sentiments are the sentiments of nine-tenths of the people of this country, that this poor wretched man who has already endured five years penal servitude should be immediately discharged. I hope that the people across the channel do not imagine that the majority of the people of this country were opposed in principle to the struggle that was entered into in 1914. They should read the eloquent remarks that fell from Senator Moore when he told us that no less than 25,000 of our people joined the colours, and of that number I believe the vast proportion entered the service of the British Crown from the district from which I come. Under these circumstances I sincerely hope and pray that this request that we ask to be sent across the channel to the British Government will be sent and that the prisoner will be soon released.

When we discussed this matter some time ago we were under the impression, at least we were very hopeful, that the spirit in which we passed the Amnesty Act would have been reciprocated on the other side. I confess that I am in some degree disappointed that the spirit which we showed on that occasion was not more fully reciprocated. At the same time, the matter may have been overlooked, and I would like to join my voice with those of the other members of the Seanad who have taken this opportunity of impressing on the British Government the advisability of amnestying Dowling. Dowling was an old soldier. Into the details of his case I do not intend to go. I do not know enough about them to go into the technicalities, but we have his case very eloquently supported by two gallant soldiers in the Seanad, and surely they would not advocate anything or advise the British authorities to take any steps which would not be in accordance with military traditions. I think Dowling should be amnestied, and amnestied at once. I know that the present moment may not perhaps be very propitious in England, in view of the sustained efforts that are being made over there to s art a new anti-Irish propaganda. At the same time, I do not think that the majority of the English people are likely to be influenced by such proceedings. I believe we shall have them with us. When we ask them, in the name of peace, in the name of friendship, in the interests of good relations between the two countries, for the sake of healing old sores, and contributing to a permanent peace, I think that the action taken by the Seanad will have beneficial results. Whether the result is good or ill, I have much pleasure in supporting the motion.

I think after what we have heard from, as Senator Sir T. Esmonde described them, our two gallant soldiers, as to Dowling's case, there can be only one opinion in the Seanad, that we should endeavour to secure his release. I do not deal with this case in any way from that point of view, but I consider that we ought to turn our minds as to how that is best to be attained. Let Senators just consider for a moment, if the House of Lords had a case of the kind, and was pressing the Irish Government, not through their own Government, and not with the considered opinion of the Lower House of Parliament behind them, about a case upon which the Irish Government has a certain opinion, I cannot see that they would do much good in advocating the cause they were passing resolutions about. I am afraid that if we pass this resolution it will end as a resolution and not produce or effect the release of the man we want released. I am criticising our line of action from the point of view of its not being the right method to secure what we want. I think that as one of the Houses of the Oireachtas of the Free State our first efforts should be directed to forcing our own Government to do the thing which they ought to do. I think if the Seanad appeals to the British Government their answer at once will be: "Why do you not go to your own Government?" I cannot see who is to answer the Seanad. We are interested in nobody. It ends as a resolution. Now I hold that if we want to do any good it is our own Government we should force into action. There may be, and Senator O'Farrell seems to think that there are, reasons that lie behind. He may know more than I do about it. There may be diplomatic reasons why it is injudicious to do so. The one thing I have in my mind is to get Dowling out. I do not think we should take any steps unless we are positively certain they are the best steps to get him out. I hold that the Resolution that we should pass in the first place is to our own Government, and let the Government here say why they cannot get him out. We have no one here to talk on behalf of the Government. We are talking as if we were a Committee amongst ourselves. We have no one here to answer our questions. I hold the matter will end here and that we will hear no more about it if we pass this resolution. If we pass a resolution calling on our own Government, somebody on behalf of the Government must answer our resolution. Then probably we are going to do some good. If there are reasons why our own Government cannot act, and if this is found to be the best course, Senator Moore and Senator Sir Bryan Mahon can get the resolution if they want it.

I think Senator Jameson is quite right, and that we are not going the right way about this thing. Not being an old Parliamentary hand, I do not like to make a suggestion as to what the actual wording of an amendment should be, but I think it should be something in this form:—"That the Government be requested to forward a resolution to the above effect"—not a resolution of the Seanad, which, as Senator Jameson says, will probably be resented, just as our Government might resent a resolution from the House of Lords. I think that conveys my meaning or the meaning that should be given to Senator Moore's intention.

This resolution calls on our Government to forward it to the British Government. I understand that the Government has tried every means already, and that the Cabinet has been in communication with the Cabinet in England, and that correspondence passed between them with no result. Even when they tried to get the Connaught Rangers out the Dáil failed signally, and it was only through the action of the gallant soldiers who have been referred to here in going over and bringing pressure to bear as Army men on Army men on the other side that the Connaught Rangers were liberated. I think something stronger than this is required. If the case is as stated, an unanswerable one, our attitude, without any disrespect, should take the form of a demand for Dowling's release, and that puts it up to the British Government to show cause for keeping him. Dowling would not be where he is to-day were it not that England broke faith with Ireland; and as has been stated here, in response to the appeal made in this country at the time of England's stress Dowling and other men went forward freely and joined the ranks. Certain promises were held out that a measure of freedom would be afforded to this country by England. It was only when England fell away from these promises and it was borne in upon the minds of these men in foreign camps that they had been cruelly deceived by England, that they took up this attitude towards England. It was because of that that Dowling was influenced to take the course that he did, and that the Connaught Rangers were also influenced. Had England kept faith with these men, none of these things would have happened. That being so— seeing that the British Government was the direct cause of this rebellious attitude, or mutiny, whatever it might have been —the British Government were themselves responsible for it. The Governments are apart, and there have been declarations leading up to the Amnesty Acts passed by both Governments which, I take it, were made in good faith.

I take it that the declarations made prior to the actual drawing up of the Bills were made on the honourable understanding that there would be a mutual exchange of prisoners. We have kept to the spirit of that understanding. Some of us, when the Amnesty Bill was submitted here, had our thoughts and gave expression to them, knowing that the past history of England in her relationship to this country was a series of broken pledges which we could not forget, and we tried to introduce into the Amnesty Bill a clause that would cover Dowling's case. The President, who possibly was in closer touch, or led us to understand so, at least, with those in power on the other side, assured us that we would not be benefiting Dowling's case by pressing this clause or by holding up the Bill, and those of us who took the other view gave way. Are you to go through the whole process again? The Dáil has expended all its efforts and has failed. Those in this Seanad who should have most influence with the British Government and with the British Army authorities have also failed. I think unless you can impart into your resolution something stronger than what is conveyed in its wording, you will meet with failure again, and I think the resolution should be that the Government be requested to demand the release of this Irish prisoner.

Would the following words meet the difficulty? "We ask the Free State Government to draw the attention of the British Government to the following facts." Then the resolution would go as it is at present until after the words "Anglo-Irish Treaty," and would then say: "And that the continued detention of this prisoner has an adverse effect on the harmonious relations between Ireland and Great Britain." At present we are writing a letter but we are not making any arrangements to put it into the pillar box or to have it delivered on the other side of the Channel. I merely suggest that we adopt the usual postal arrangements. I move that as an amendment.

If what Senator Sir Bryan Mahon says is right I have nothing more to say, but if we agree with Senator Jameson that it is rather for the Government of the Free State to approach the British Government with regard to the detention of this man, I think we should be carrying this intention better into effect and with more deference to the Free State Government and to our own dignity if we simply forward Senator Moore's resolution to the Government, requesting them to take such action to carry the resolution into effect as they might think fit. It is for them to take the necessary steps in accordance with our resolution, but if the Senator who proposed it is content with that amendment I have nothing more to say.

AN LEAS-CHATHAOIRLEACH

I think it might possibly be convenient to adjourn the discussion until to-morrow, that is if the Seanad agrees, and the various members who are making suggestions might possibly come together and circulate before to-morrow an agreed amendment to the resolution which would probably lead to unanimity. There will be no difficulty in continuing the debate to-morrow, if that be the wish of the Seanad. I throw that out simply as a suggestion. Four different suggestions have been made, but only one definitely in the form of an amendment which has not been seconded, and it is rather difficult to deal with the matter.

I have listened to what various Senators have said and I must say that I do not agree with them.

Is Senator Moore about to wind up, because if so I would like to say something?

AN LEAS-CHATHAOIRLEACH

I made that as a suggestion, and if it does not meet with general approval we will continue the debate. One Senator has moved an amendment which has not been seconded.

The reason I interfere at this stage is because Senator Yeats got up and read an addition that might bring Senator Jameson's ideas into agreement with Senator Moore's. Senator Jameson pointed out that the resolution led us practically nowhere. It merely emphasised the fact that this man was in prison. Senator Jameson was right in that, that we ought to have something else in it. Senator Moore pointed out to us that when the Treaty between the two countries was agreed to it was implied that the release of Dowling along with others would have been carried out. These implications are on the heads of the people of this country and England. I think we ought to add to the resolution "that the Seanad desires the Government of Saorstát Eireann to see that all the implications of the Treaty be given effect to by the British Government." I think that would get us over the difficulty. I do not like that we should be in the position that the Seanad should be begging of the British Government to have this man released. I do not think that is a position that we should take up. If there are implications by the Treaty we ought to insist on their being carried out. I think the amendment would help this Government. There is no reason why we should keep all the provisions of the Treaty, and that they could get out of any of them. We hold to them hard and fast; let us get the whole hog or none. If Senator Moore would accept my proposal I am prepared to move it.

AN LEAS-CHATHAOIRLEACH

Is that an addition to the last sentence in the resolution?

I would strike out the last paragraph, which has reference to the British Government and substitute this. I only roughly drafted the wording, but I think it would bring Senator Moore and Senator Jameson together.

I do not think much is served by these shifts and changes.

AN LEAS-CHATHAOIRLEACH

The amendment has not been seconded.

I formally second it.

AN LEAS-CHATHAOIRLEACH

The amendment is "that the last paragraph be deleted and that the following paragraph be substituted, ‘and the Seanad desires the Government of Saorstat Eireann to see that all the implications of the Anglo-Irish Treaty are given effect to by the British Government.'"

In regard to this amendment, before Senator Moore replies, I would suggest in the interest of order and proper procedure that it would be desirable that he would agree to the appeal issued for an adjournment in this matter until to-morrow. We are all imbued with the one idea that is, as Senator Jameson said, the only question at issue, which is: What is the best method of procedure? Nothing will be lost by an adjournment for the purpose of ascertaining how we can arrange for the release of Dowling.

If there is any desire that the Seanad should adjourn it would be absurd for me to oppose it, and I would not do anything of the sort. I may not agree with any of the proposals or suggestions made, but nevertheless I defer to the wishes of the Seanad and I am quite ready to agree to an adjournment on this matter. I only say for the present that I desire the resolution to be made as strong as possible. I am always considered rather an extremist and too violent in my opinions and statements, and for that reason I try to moderate them to come level with more moderate people, as far as I can, but this matter was very carefully considered again and again, and redrafted two or three times and submitted to several people. It was drafted with the help of lawyers and in consultation with others interested in the matter. We must remember that the Government has been trying all along, and I hope no one will think that this is an attack on the Government. Nothing of the sort. The first thing I did after the Treaty, was to go to members of the old Dáil whom I knew, to get them interested in the matter, and I suppose they did all they could. I went to members of the Government and I found they had already made these efforts and failed, and I made these efforts again by my own initiation and failed. For that reason, I think it is rather a question, for the Dáil and Seanad individually rather than the Government, which has already failed admittedly to get him out. They told me so. I am ready to agree to the suggestion for an adjournment.

Amendment by Mr. McPartlin and Mr. Farren withdrawn.
Question put: "That the debate stand adjourned."
Agreed.
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