Seanad Éireann debate -
Friday, 19 Dec 1924

Vol. 3 No. 27

INTOXICATING LIQUOR BILL—NOMINATIONS TO JOINT CONFERENCE.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

In changing the hour of our meeting from 1 o'clock to 2 o'clock, I think I have been justified by the fact that only five minutes ago the Dáil put through a motion suggesting a Joint Conference of the two Houses with a view to adjusting, if possible, their differences over the Intoxicating Liquor Bill. I have received the following Message from the Dáil:—

Dáil Eireann has this day passed the following Resolution to which the concurrence of Seanad Eireann is desired:—

"That it is desirable that a Conference be held between members representing the Dáil and the Seanad upon Amendments Nos. 1, 2 and 9 made by the Seanad to the Intoxicating Liquor (General) Bill, 1924, to which the Dáil have disagreed and upon which the Seanad in their Message of the 12th December have insisted;

"That five Deputies represent the Dáil at the said Conference."

Mr. FARREN

In anticipation of this Motion being adopted in the Dáil, I handed in a notice of motion to a similar effect to be moved here to-day, and I accordingly beg to propose now:

That the Seanad agree to the suggestion contained in the Message from the Dáil, and that the Seanad do now proceed to elect five representatives to a Joint Conference with the representatives of the Dáil.

Mr. BROWN

I beg to second.

Motion put, and agreed to.

Mr. DOUGLAS

I beg to move:—

That Senators H.S. Guinness, the Countess of Desart, T. Westropp Bennett, T. Farren and J.G. Douglas be appointed as a Committee of five.

Mr. BROWN

I beg to second.

Mr. GUINNESS

I think it would be better if my name were withdrawn, in view of the circumstances of my present occupation.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I think that is one of the reasons why you should be put on.

Mr. GUINNESS

I bow to your ruling.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

No Senator will imagine for a moment that you will do anything but what you believe to be right and just.

Mr. DOUGLAS

It has been represented to me that Senator Colonel Moore feels that as he was one of the Senators who moved one of the motions, he should be on the Committee. As I was the mover of the other, I am willing to have my name withdrawn in favour of Senator Colonel Moore's.

Colonel MOORE

I do not mind in the least.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

The motion now before the Seanad is that the following five Senators shall represent this House at the Joint Conference: Senators H.S. Guinness, The Countess of Desart, Colonel Moore, T. Westropp Bennett, and T. Farren.

Mr. MacKEAN

Before that motion is put, may I say that I think the name of Senator Martin Fitzgerald, who has very considerable interest in the liquor trade, should be included.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

There is one objection to that, and it is, that the Senator is not here.

Mr. MacKEAN

I have just left him and he will be here directly.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I think the Committee we have selected is a very representative one. It is representative of the interests that you refer to.

Mr. MacKEAN

With all due respect, I do not think it is.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

You may propose any name you like and I will put it to the House.

Mr. MacKEAN

I beg to propose that the name of Senator Martin Fitzgerald be added to the Committee.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

The Committee is a Committee of five and you cannot add to it. You must propose to substitute his name for the name of some other Senator. Is there any name on the list read out that you wish to propose to have struck out.

Mr. MacKEAN

Out of the five names that have been proposed, three are distinct teetotal representatives.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I hope they are nothing the worse for that.

Mr. MacKEAN

They may be very much the better for it. At the same time, the liquor industry represents 75 per cent. of the revenue of the Free State, and it would not be right, I think, that the majority of the representatives from this House at the Conference should represent the temperance ideal. I think it would be much better if we were to discuss here ourselves what compromise might be arrived at.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

The Senator is not in order now. He must confine himself to the amendment. The Senator has moved that the name of Senator Martin Fitzgerald be inserted in place of whom, I ask?

Mr. MacKEAN

I have great respect for Senator Colonel Moore. I nearly always act with him, and I think his opinions are very sound on almost every question except the liquor question, on which, I think, they are particularly unsound. Therefore, I would propose that the name of Senator Martin Fitzgerald be substituted on the Committee for the name of Senator Colonel Moore.

Mr. McEVOY

I second.

Mr. NESBITT

Is there any reason why we should not have a ballot for the selection of these five representatives?

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

There is no provision that I know of to have a vote by ballot. Whenever we intend to have a vote by ballot it is provided for in our Standing Orders. I think it would be rather strange to take a vote by ballot for this. In any case, I do not think we have the power to do so.

Mr. DOUGLAS

In opposing the amendment, I desire to point out that the object of the Conference is not to commit this House to anything whatsoever. The recommendations from the Conference, whether they be good, bad, or indifferent, can be accepted or rejected by this House. The same of course applies to the Dáil. The intention was to provide amongest the five, a majority of the persons who voted for the two amendments on which the Seanad has insisted. I have just been present in the Dáil where, in the selection of Deputies to act on the Joint Conference, the same principle has been adopted, the whole idea being to see if it is possible to reach an accommodation between the two points of view, one of which has a majority in the Seanad and the other a majority in the Dáil. The recommendations of the Conference will not be binding on either House. They will simply be recommendations to both Houses.

Sir THOS. GRATTAN ESMONDE

May I suggest to Senator MacKean that he should allow the Committee to stand as originally nominated. Whatever recommendations are made by the Conference will come before both Houses, and may be either agreed with or disagreed with. For myself, if there is a division I shall support the nomination of Senator Colonel Moore, but I think that in the circumstances, it would be just as well for Senator MacKean to let the matter stand.

Mr. MacKEAN

I could not agree to that in view of the very decided attitude Senator Colonel Moore took up on this question. His attitude to a certain extent was unreasonable.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

It is enough for the Senator to say that he does not withdraw his amendment. I cannot allow him to speak on it again.

Amendment put, and declared lost.

Original motion put, and declared carried.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

The Ceann Comhairle of the Dáil has fixed the hour of 2.30 p.m. for the members of the Joint Committee to meet in Committee Room, No. 2. I take it that the members of the Joint Committee, who have been nominated by this House, will make it their business to be there at that hour. In view of that, and in view also of the fact that I understand an announcement is to be made in the Dáil at 3 o'clock in reference to the Shannon Electricity Scheme in which a great many members of this House are interested, I suggest that the wisest thing for us to do would be to adjourn until 3.45 p.m. We can re-assemble at that hour and hear what the result of the Conference has been and also dispose of the remaining business on our Agenda.

The sitting was suspended until 3.45 p.m.

On resuming,

Mr. GUINNESS

I beg to submit the report of the Conference of members representing the Dáil and the Seanad on certain amendments made by the Seanad to the Intoxicating Liquor (General) Bill, 1924, and disagreed to by the Dáil. The report is as follows:—

1. The Conference was set up by Resolution of the Dáil, of the 19th December, which was concurred in by the Seanad on the same date.

2. The following Deputies were nominated to represent the Dáil at the Conference:—

Deputies Johnson, Daly, Baxter, Lyons, and P.J. Egan; and the following Senators to represent the Seanad:—Senators Guinness, Countess of Desart, Bennett, Farren, and Colonel Moore.

3. The Conference met at 2.30 p.m. to-day in Committee Room No. 2 of the Dáil.

4. The following members were present:—Deputies Johnson, Daly, Lyons, and P.J. Egan; Senators Guinness, Countess of Desart, Bennett, Farren, and Colonel Moore. Deputy Johnson was moved to the Chair.

5. The Conference decided to recommend—

(1) That the Dáil agree to Amendments 1 and 2, to which it had previously disagreed, but insist on its disagreement to Amendment 9.

(2) That the Seanad do not insist on Amendment 9.

6. The Conference reports accordingly."

The report is signed by Deputy Johnson as Chairman of the Joint Conference. If I am in order, I beg to move that the Seanad do not insist on Amendment 9, which, I think, is all that is required.

Mr. NESBITT

I beg to second.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

Perhaps it is as well that I should mention that the Dáil has already passed a Resolution agreeing to the report of the Conference.

EARL of MAYO

Before this motion is passed, I should like to address a few words to the Seanad. I understand, from what passed here early this afternoon, that the Seanad is in no way committed to the report of this Committee. I believe, if we do agree to this compromise, that the whole question of the licensing liquor laws will have to go before a Commission.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

That is not quite the position, I think. What I think the Minister for Justice did say was, that it was his intention to appoint a Commission to go into certain specific matters, but I do not think he said that the Commission was to rove over the whole question of the licensing laws. He told us that one of the matters to be referred to the Commission was as to whether the existing number of public-houses was too many and should not be reduced. He also stated it would be possible to refer to that Commission this question of structural alterations. These are the two things that the Minister mentioned. He did not say that the Commission was going to rove over the entire subject of the licensing laws.

EARL of MAYO

I understand that this question of structural alterations is to be dealt with by the Commission.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

So I understood, too, from the Minister.

EARL of MAYO

That is a most important matter. Therefore, if we accept the report of our Committee which has come to this compromise, I hope the Seanad will clearly understand that this question of structural alterations, in houses where groceries are sold as well as liquor, will have to come before the Commission. As the Minister has stated that, I am not going to criticise in any way the report of the Committee from both Houses that has just been submitted. These windy storms which occur in the Dáil pass as summer breezes. I hope that we are not going to increase in any way the difficulty of making laws in our Free State. As you, A Chathaoirligh, have made it perfectly clear that this question relating to structural alterations will have to come before the Commission, I shall not oppose in any way the findings of the Joint Conference of both Houses.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

As I wish to guard myself from any misunderstandings hereafter, I desire to say that I have no power whatever to state what the scope of this Commission will be. All I can say is that the Minister for Justice said that this question of structural alterations would be an excellent subject to refer to the Commission, but I must not be taken as saying that he thereby pledged himself that it would in fact be made the subject of such a reference. I believe myself that it will, but I do not want to have any misunderstanding about it. I am making no promise, because I could give no promise or pledge on the subject.

The motion now before the Seanad is: "That the Seanad do not insist on Amendment No. 9."

Question put and agreed to.