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Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 10 May 1927

Vol. 8 No. 25

DUBLIN PORT AND DOCKS (BRIDGE) BILL, 1927. - RAILWAYS (ROAD MOTOR SERVICES) BILL, 1927—REPORT.

I move:—

In Section 3, sub-section (2), to delete the words "either generally or temporarily for a period not exceeding twelve months" inserted in Committee after the word "service" in line 50 and to substitute therefor the words either regularly or tentatively for a period not exceeding twelve months."

This is really a verbal amendment. On the last occasion the word "generally" was objected to as an inappropriate word to use. The object of the amendment was that the company might have a chance of trying a route, working it tentatively, and in that case they should be allowed to withdraw it without the approval of the Minister. The word "generally" does not seem to be proper and I move to substitute the words "either generally or temporarily for a period not exceeding twelve months" by the words "either regularly or tentatively for a period not exceeding twelve months."

I think that I have got the information I wanted from the remarks of the Senator. I wanted to know if it was his intention to have a tentative service removed from the approval of the Minister either in regard to its establishment or withdrawal.

Only as to withdrawal. If the Minister reads the section with my words introduced he will find that a tentative service has to be approved. It is only when you come to the subsequent sub-section which deals with giving up a service that you do not require approval.

The amendment before us contains the phrase "for a period not exceeding twelve months." Is that to be read with "regularly" or with "tentatively" or with both?

With "tentatively" only.

I am advised that it runs the risk of being interpreted with both words and that, perhaps, the word "permanently" might be substituted for the word "regularly." You could not have a permanent service "for a period not exceeding twelve months."

I do not object to that change.

I am advised as the amendment stands that the word "regularly" will be read with the word "tentatively." That is to say it will be taken regularly for a period not exceeding twelve months.

I am willing to accept the word "permanently" instead of "regularly."

I would like to put this point on its merits. If the railway company is going to be given leave to run experimental services and to be allowed to withdraw them without the approval of the Minister, the company will, in fact, run nothing except experimental services and will not run regular services. Every service will be described as experimental.

CATHAOIRLEACH

Will it not cease to be that after twelve months?

It could be introduced again tentatively the next year. I do not know what the Seanad thinks of the principle of the Bill. The idea was that the prohibition which at present lies on the railway company in regard to the running of road motor services should be withdrawn, and that the company should be put in the same position as any other company or person in regard to the running of road services. First one has to safeguard the railway revenue by seeing that no injudicious road service would be run against competition which it could not defeat except by running it at a loss. Secondly, one has to protect the public against the railway company, which being a large corporation and having, at any rate, facilities for finance—if not having loose finances at present—might hereafter defeat the road services which are at present run beneficially to the public, and, having done so, might then clear off the road themselves. Having defeated their competitors, they might come off the road themselves in the hope that the traffic would then flow back to the railway. If that principle be accepted, I think there is a weakening of the liabilities under which the railway company is being put in regard to facilities they are now getting for running road services. In other words, we are going to allow them to run experimental services and allow them to take them off without the permission of the Minister. As set out in the Bill, once the service is established and the rate fixed, the rate is not to be lowered nor the service withdrawn or discontinued without the approval of the Minister. The amendment introduces a new point, namely, that what is described as an experimental road service may be run and afterwards withdrawn without the approval of the Minister. That is an open door to the company which they may push wider and eventually defeat the restrictions put upon them. That may be good or bad, as the restrictions may be too onerous.

The Seanad carried my amendment on the last day, but it was worded differently and less artistically. I suggest that it is better to get the amendment worded properly than to leave it as it is.

I agree with that. I am rather enlarging the remarks I made on the last day. I have doubts as to how the change will be received by the Dáil. It is a breach in the Bill as sent by the Dáil, and it is a breach in the provision about which they were most insistent. If it is to be put through I ask that it be put through at once so that I may argue the matter at greater length with the Dáil. If it is to be put through, I agree that it is better to have it worded properly. I am pointing out that there is a danger of the amendment not being accepted by the Dáil.

Is there not a danger that if you do not have an amendment of this kind the public will lose a certain amount of service as the railway company will not be ready to make an experiment? I think there is great danger that if they cannot withdraw they will not put on a service which is doubtful from the point of view of profit.

I am advised that Section 3, as drafted, provides for experimental services being started and withdrawn with the approval of the Minister.

CATHAOIRLEACH

I want to remind the House how the matter stands. The Committee have already accepted an amendment to insert in this section the words "either generally or temporarily for a period not exceeding twelve months." It was objected to by the Minister that these words "generally or temporarily" were little awkward, and not very accurate expressions. The Senator said he would consider and see if he could not devise more suitable terms than the words "generally and temporarily." The result of his meditation was to produce "regularly or tentatively." On further consideration, and on the suggestion of the Minister, he now prefers "permanently" to "regularly." The amendment would run, then, "either permanently or tentatively for a period not exceeding twelve months." What is before the Senators now is whether they will give leave to change the amendment passed in Committee from "generally or temporarily" to "permanently or tentatively."

Have all existing motor services been licensed for the routes they cover?

Except the Tramways Company buses, they are quite free.

I was under the impression that this matter was deferred for the purpose of making a verbal alteration in the amendment. The principle of the amendment on the last occasion was accepted subject to modification. If connection with another Bill the Minister deprecated the introduction of a spirit of pessimism. I venture to suggest that he himself is sounding a note of pessimism to-day when he tells us that the railway company might be very apprehensive about the success of motor services, and that as a consequence they would regard all these services as experimental. I do not want to indulge in the role of prophet, but I do not think that the railway company have any such view. In my opinion the amendment that Senator Brown has now moved provides, what we are hoping will occur on very rare occasions, that when a service which is experimental has been found unprofitable or undesirable then the company should have the power of withdrawal of that service. When it is said that all services would be experimental and withdrawn without the Minister's approval, that is going further than anyone could anticipate.

CATHAOIRLEACH

We are now simply on a question of words and not on any question of principle.

May I not argue that it would be possible to accept the first half of the amendment to delete the words either "generally or temporarily for a period not exceeding twelve months," and not put anything in substitution?

CATHAOIRLEACH

I think on the last occasion the general impression was that you accepted the spirit of the amendment. The matter was postponed only on the question of seeing if the phraseology could be improved but of course, that does not bind the Dáil.

I think it is clear from the Minister's statement that he is not quite as enthusiastic about this amendment as he was on the last occasion. I think his chief objection is that if this amendment is carried the railway company can with the approval of the Minister institute a motor service, and withdraw it without his permission. I would like to know how he arrives at that conclusion. Is he quite clear that even a tentative service can be withdrawn without his approval?

The third amendment by Senator Brown achieves that, and the amendments are put down together. I put it to the House that there is leave in the Bill as it stands for an experimental service to be run with the approval of the Minister, and it can only be discontinued if the Minister again approves of its discontinuance. I would ask whether that is a good power to put into the hands of the Minister, rather than have it in the way of an amendment that a tentative service once established with the approval of the Minister can be withdrawn at the railway company's discretion. At the worst, every service would be inaugurated as an experimental service. That would be the tendency resulting from the amendment in order to get away from having to go to the Minister for approval for the discontinuance of the service.

If that happens, the Minister could refuse approval, if he suspects that it is only a bogus tentative experiment.

At any rate, they could withdraw at the end of the year. The thing is not practicable.

Amendment, as amended, put and agreed to.

I move:—

"Section 3, sub-section (6). Before the word ‘road' in line 28 to insert the word ‘regular."'

Amendment put and agreed to.

I move:—

"Section 5, sub-section (1). To delete the words ‘approved generally under the provisions of sub-section (2) of Section 3 of' inserted in Committee in substitution for the word ‘under' in line 21 and to substitute therefor the words ‘other than a road motor service being run tentatively under.'"

Amendment put and agreed to.
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