I think it is necessary to deal with the subject a little more fully than the Senator has done in moving his motion.
The motion that is now before the House varies from the one that was discussed last week inasmuch as it deals with Irish workers who go across the water and do not receive insurance benefit when they return. Therefore this motion is much wider than the one we discussed last week which used the phrase "Irish migratory labourers" and dealt only with unemployment insurance. It was said, in respect of the motion last week, that all the information was available, and that there was no need for a committee of inquiry. It may be true that remark would apply to the motion that is now before us so far as the Ministries are concerned. I think it is true to say that Deputies and Senators are almost unanimously ignorant of what the position is in respect of two or three classes of insurance which affect Irish workers going to England, Scotland or to Northern Ireland. There is a good deal of complexity about the problem. Therefore, I think it would be quite useful, and probably a valuable procedure, if the Dáil were to agree with the Seanad to have a committee to investigate—I will not prejudice the case by saying the hardships— but the problem, and to see if the committee could find a means of removing such hardships as may be found to exist.
Migratory labourers who go across the water from Mayo and Donegal were mainly under consideration last week—that is in respect of their unemployment insurance. As has been pointed out, when they are working at agriculture across the water there is no deduction from their wages at all for unemployment insurance. But I think we are mostly aware of the fact that a good number of these labourers do not remain in agricultural employment. They more or less change from agricultural to industrial or semi-industrial employment. We have seen that a number of them go into beet sugar factories across the water, following upon their employment in beet sugar cultivation. In so far as they are engaged in industrial operations, their unemployment insurance contribution is deducted, but as has been pointed out, when they return to this country there is no benefit to come to them. In respect of health insurance, whether they are employed in agriculture or in industry health insurance deductions are made from them, but as Irish migratory labourers they do not receive any benefit when they return, and that I think is partly their own fault.
I am not quite sure what the legal position at the moment is, but up to very recently it was within the competence of any Irish migratory labourer to get a card of exemption which would exempt him from having any deduction made from his wages by his employer while engaged at agricultural work, but the employer had to make a contribution. The accumulated funds resulting from these contributions were, by agreement between the Insurance Commissioners made applicable to the insured persons in the counties concerned, mainly, as I say, the counties of Mayo and Donegal. It happens, for some reason that I have no explanation of, that following the first two or three years of the passing of the Health Insurance Acts there was a steady decline in the number of persons who applied for these exemption certificates, until in recent years there have been only five or six applications from the thousands who go across the water and who apply for such certificates. Consequently, it has been obligatory on their employers to make a deduction for health insurance for which the men receive no benefit. If they had been exempt, and if the migratory labourers' fund which was established under the Health Insurance Acts had continued to be in credit, such moneys would have been spent in the localities concerned, first on nursing activities, and second on sanatorium benefit. That was the arrangement made during the early years of the Health Insurance Acts, but it has fallen away simply because agricultural migratory labourers did not apply for these exemption cards. Therefore, they forfeited by their own act any benefit that would have accrued to them.
I would point out that the term "Irish migratory labourer" is defined in the Health Insurance Acts. It means persons who have no insurable occupation in this country and who go across the water for a period to work at agricultural operations. In so far as these men work at other occupations than agriculture, of course, they come within the same category as all other workmen going from the Free State to Great Britain or Northern Ireland. They are then just in the same position as a joiner, a carpenter, a dock labourer or any other workman and they come under the British law in respect to insurance.
I think there is need for some compact understanding or agreement between the various authorities. I think it is unwise and unjust to base our claims upon allegations of hostility and on suggestions of ill-will and enmity. I do not think that is the way to approach the matter, because if one liked one could say that it is a privilege the migratory labourer is seeking when he goes across the water in search of employment. That might be said. Consequently it might also be said that when seeking a privilege he could not look upon it as a hardship if a toll is charged for that right or opportunity. For those of us who think that there is some value in having an association of States, friendly though separate, I certainly think there is a good case to be made from the standpoint of equity and justice that those who pay contributions to insurance funds either on the health side or on the unemployment side should derive some benefit out of these insurance funds. If we take these funds and treat them as insurance funds it is clear that, in respect of those workers who go over for a period and return, they may receive benefit while they are there, but if there is no liability during the period after they have returned home, the fund itself is in profit, not only in respect of the amount that is contributed by the workman himself but in respect of the amount contributed by the employer in respect of the workman.
I certainly think no undue request is being made when we ask that some recompense should be made to the Irish insurance funds owing to the fact that in respect of Irish workers working across the water moneys are being paid into British insurance funds. I think that these funds at least ought to recoup the Irish funds to the amount that is to credit in respect of these workmen so that the Irish funds can pay out such sums as may be due in respect of the contributions that have been paid. That strikes me as being a reasonable claim that ought to be put forward both by the Department of Industry and Commerce, in respect to unemployment insurance, and by the Department of Local Government and Public Health which is responsible for all health insurance. That would seem to me to be a very desirable thing. There is a complication first in respect to migratory labourers, in the narrow sense of going to England or Scotland and working at agriculture, and of the same persons working occasionally at industrial occupations, and also in respect to seamen who are frequently at a loss by the fact that, though domiciled in Ireland, they work on a British ship. The problem of town workmen who go over to England occasionally and work at their own occupation, get unemployed and in coming home find they are not entitled to unemployment benefit, as well as the problem of workers of various kinds going into and coming out of the Six Counties have other complications which probably require somewhat different treatment. They certainly require separate examination.
All these problems seem to me to be worthy of examination. There has been a more recent complication of particular interest to us due to the passing in Great Britain and Northern Ireland of the Contributory Insurance Act which leads to earlier pensions as well as to widows' and orphans' pensions. All these problems are complicated. Though all the information and the facts may be available to Ministries they are certainly not available to Deputies and Senators. I support the motion mainly on the general principle that it is a valuable procedure that members of the Oireachtas should become intimate with some of these problems, so that their knowledge of affairs would enable them to bring light to bear upon a possible solution of them, and that in that way they would be able to assist governmental authority without relieving them of responsibility.
The condition of things in Great Britain makes it opportune for the Oireachtas to inquire into this matter. I think there is a receptiveness on such subjects at present that might be taken advantage of by reason of the fact that there is a Labour Government in power, and they are largely dependent on the support of Irish workers in Great Britain. I think that fact ought to be kept in mind in our consideration of the desirability of taking time by the forelock and looking at this matter in the widest sense embodied in the motion. I therefore hope the Minister will look favourably on the proposition, and, if the Seanad approves of it, that he will use his influence with the Dáil to have the committee suggested set up. I do not think that the committee can devise the means of alleviating this hardship and removing the difficulties as a committee. I think it would inevitably require the assistance of at least two departments of State, and I think it is much more likely to be done if it is done with the good will of the parties of the two Houses. Some means may be found for bridging what difficulties there are, and seeking the assistance that is necessary to provide some benefits which are due to persons in respect of their contributions. A case was made last week that it is not reasonable or proper to ask this State, out of its State funds, to make up any insurance benefits which might be payable to a person who becomes sick in this country, or unemployed, in respect of contributions made for insurance in another country. I think that is reasonable, but I think it is possible to so present that case in respect of the two classes of insurance that there could be no refusal to transfer from the English funds such sums as had been contributed by Irish workers. I hope the Minister will agree to the appointment of this committee.
