Seanad Éireann debate -
Friday, 20 Jun 1930

Vol. 13 No. 27

Trade Loans (Guarantee) (Amendment) Bill, 1930—Committee Stage.

Mr. Hooper

When this Bill was before us previously I mentioned that there was a matter which I would raise at a subsequent stage, as under the rules of debate I was unable to bring it to a conclusion previously. It is a question of the total amount for which the State has made itself responsible in connection with this Trade Loans Guarantee. As I think the Minister did not understand fully my meaning on the last occasion I would like to state my point again. I would like to get the figure which would include, not merely the amount guaranteed by the State, but actually advanced in respect of such guaranteed loans, but also any other sums either actually expended or for which the State has pledged its security in respect of trade loans. The Minister, in giving the sum guaranteed by him and advanced on his guarantee, said that the total was £320,000. That rather surprised me, because I thought I recollected his having mentioned a figure of £400,000 in the same connection twelve months ago. The Minister said he did not remember having used the figure of £400,000, so I looked up the report of the speech that I had in mind, and I will read from it an extract from which, perhaps, the House will conclude that in a sense we were both right. In introducing the estimate for his Department last year the Minister spoke about the trade loans, and said:—

"About £400,000 has been guaranteed, certainly £320,000 actually has been guaranteed. £80,000 fall for settlement almost immediately under two cases."

Apparently the figure £400,000 mentioned by him then was the outside figure, and it was subject to reduction under certain circumstances, which circumstances arose, and the £400,000 was reduced to £320,000. That figure apparently remains to-day. In addition to that £320,000, it appears to me that other sums need to be taken into account if we are to arrive at the figure which I have asked. I mentioned the other day also a sum of £250,000 which had been raised by the Industrial Trust Company on Government security for the purpose of these loans.

Mr. McGilligan

Not for the purpose of these loans. I intervene on a point of order. The Industrial Trust Company cannot be discussed on the Trade Loans (Guarantee) Bill.

Cathaoirleach

Unless the Senator is able to connect in some way the Trade Loans Guarantee with the other matter I do not think it is relevant. Can the Senator do that?

Mr. Hooper

I propose to do that.

Mr. McGilligan

The Industrial Trust money does not arise in connection with the million pounds under this Bill.

Cathaoirleach

The question that you are raising, Senator, does not arise on this particular Bill.

Mr. Hooper

May I attempt to show that it does arise?

Mr. McGilligan

Can the Senator show me that any of the million pounds asked for under this Bill is for the Industrial Trust Company?

Mr. Comyn

My submission to the Chair is this——

Cathaoirleach

Would you allow Senator Hooper to make his point? We had better dispose of that first.

Mr. Hooper

The Minister has come here and asked us for this Bill. I have put a question to him which, I think, is germane to the question before us.

Mr. McGilligan

To the million pounds?

Mr. Hooper

The question of the total liability of the State in respect of these loans. I submit that matter is in order under this Bill.

Mr. McGilligan

I submit that there is nothing in order with regard to the State's liability under this Bill except the amount of money mentioned in the Act, and such money as the State has guaranteed out of the million pounds.

Mr. Hooper

Surely the Minister has no great objection to letting us know——

Mr. McGilligan

Certainly not. If the Senator wants to raise a question with regard to the Industrial Trust Company he will have every opportunity of doing so on the Appropriation Bill when it comes before the House.

Cathaoirleach

I put this to Senator Hooper, that as the House has already given this Bill a Second Reading, it is hardly reasonable to draw in these extraneous matters now.

Mr. Hooper

Might I make this point? The Industrial Trust Company—the authority for this is a statement made by the President— was formed primarily and mainly to finance these guaranteed trade loans. I submit that that statement, coming from the head of the Government, does connect this matter of guaranteed trade loans with the Industrial Trust Company.

Mr. McGilligan

But not, I submit, with this Bill.

Mr. Hooper

My submission is that that being so, the matter is in order.

Cathaoirleach

On the Second Reading of the Bill the Senator would have been perfectly entitled to refer to the whole question of trade loans, but as the House has passed that stage of the Bill, a Bill which only deals with a specific sum for a specific purpose, I must rule out of order any extraneous matters now brought in.

Mr. Hooper

I was not anxious to raise the whole question of trade loans. I simply asked for a round figure that would enable us to judge how much State money had been pledged for this purpose.

Cathaoirleach

As the Minister has pointed out, the Senator will have an opportunity of raising all that on the Appropriation Bill.

Mr. Hooper

I shall do so.

Mr. Comyn

Will the Minister give the information on the Appropriation Bill?

Mr. McGilligan

I have no statement to make with regard to the Industrial Trust Corporation, because I have nothing to do with that. Senator Hooper made the statement that the sum of £400,000 had been guaranteed and deductions made. The very words that the Senator read from my speech stultify him in that argument. I stated, as the Senator read it out, that £320,000 actually had been guaranteed and that certain other things might fall for guarantee. The Senator's gloss on that was "deductions were made from the sum of £400,000 actually guaranteed."

Mr. Hooper

The Minister, I think, is attributing more sinister motives to me than I have.

Mr. McGilligan

I am not attributing sinister motives, but I want to get to the question of the actual statement so far as the Senator read anything purporting to be a quotation from my speech. Having closed the book, the Senator said that I had announced that £400,000 had been guaranteed, and that apparently £80,000 had been deducted. I never said that.

Mr. Hooper

May I read the quotation again?

Mr. McGilligan

The Senator read accurately what I said, but he put a wrong gloss upon it. Whether the Senator intended to do so or not he, in fact, said—does he deny it—that that amount of £400,000 had in fact been stated by me as guaranteed. The Senator did say that.

Mr. Hooper

I am very sorry.

Mr. McGilligan

What I said previously was that £320,000 was the actual guarantee.

Mr. Hooper

So as to make the matter clear I will read again the quotation that I gave from the Minister's speech:

About £400,000 has been guaranteed, certainly £320,000 actually has been guaranteed. £80,000 fall for settlement almost immediately under two cases. £400,000 with about 2,000 employed.

That figure of £400,000 is down to £320,000 now, and it could only have come down by the fact——

Mr. McGilligan

Where has it come down? Would the Senator read the quotation again and read what I said: "£320,000 actually has been guaranteed."

Mr. Hooper

The difference between £400,000 and £320,000?

Mr. McGilligan

What £400,000? I must again ask the Senator to read what I said: "£320,000 actually has been guaranteed."

Mr. Hooper

Certainly, £320,000 actually is guaranteed, but the difference of £80,000 seems to me to be due to the fact that applications that were then pending were not approved.

Mr. McGilligan

Were not pursued. No deductions were made.

Mr. Hooper

I did not say that any deductions were made.

Mr. McGilligan

The Senator did say that.

Mr. Hooper

I am in the recollection of the House.

Mr. Comyn

Could the Minister give us the name of the Minister who will be able to tell us what became of the money that was in the hands of the Industrial Trust Company?

Mr. McGilligan

If the Senator has sufficient interest in the matter and looks up the Book of Estimates he will be able to find for himself the name of the Minister who stands for the Vote.

Bill passed through Committee without amendment.

Report Stage ordered for Wednesday, 25th June.