Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 3 Jul 1930

Vol. 13 No. 31

Public Business. - Housing Bill, 1930—Fifth Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Housing Bill, 1930, do now pass."

Mr. Johnson

This Bill has been put forward as a contribution of the Government's policy towards the solution of the housing problem. We have had a certain amount of information, gradually unfolded, as to the policy the Government is trying to develop regarding this very serious problem. We have learned, for instance, that they desire, at the earliest possible moment, to abolish rent restrictions, that they intend at the earliest possible moment to abolish subsidies on buildings, that they are proposing to leave to the building industry to find means within itself, without Government intervention, of building houses at a lower cost than has been done up to date. I believe I am right in saying that the Minister believes that some separate treatment will have to be given to what is called the problem of the slums, or the problem of the slum dwellers. I would like, if possible, to get from the Minister some idea of what he is thinking of in regard to the slums.

I find, taking Dublin as the great illustration, that it is difficult to say what is meant by slums unless one is thinking only of third-class tenement houses. In looking over the census returns, and the Registrar-General's returns, one can take from the City of Dublin certain registration districts comprising just half of the total population of Dublin—that is to say, 142,000 persons out of 284,000 persons. And taking that half of the city into account we have this very awful fact: that fifty per cent. of that half of the population live, three-and-more persons per room, and that 34 per cent. of those persons live four-and-more persons per room.

It is not right to think of that very great number of over-crowded dwellings as being occupied by spendthrifts and wasters and the very poor, because one finds that 39 per cent. of the total number of carpenters in the City of Dublin are living in dwellings two-and-more per room; and of other woodworkers 50.5 of the total number are occupying dwellings two-and-more persons per room, and 28 per cent. three-and-more persons per room. Of metal workers, which is mainly a skilled occupation, 46.6 per cent. of the people occupied in that industry are living in dwellings two-and-more persons per room, so that when speaking of the slum problem as something distinct from the general housing problem we have to take into account certainly a full half of the population in those registration areas which comprise 50 per cent. of the total population. Therefore the problem of Dublin housing is not merely a problem of slum dwellers. When the Minister has stated as his policy the removal of the restrictions of rent, the abolishing of subsidies on house building, and leaving the industry to find a means of building houses which can be let at a rent which this half of the population of working people in the city can pay, then, I think, he is not dealing satisfactorily with the problem, and that the outline of policy he has given us from time to time is entirely unsatisfactory.

Minister for Local Government and Public Health (General Mulcahy)

Senator Johnson has asked for some statement from me as to what is going to be our line of treatment dealing with the slum problem in Dublin. There is no use in the Senator asking me to do that at a time when there is no general acceptance of some of the other points he has mentioned. He says our policy appears to lie in no restriction of rents, no subsidies, and letting the building trade develop upon its own. I want to know in return for what reason should we, in our general outlook on the housing policy, stand for any restriction of rent, for what reason should we stand for any subsidy to the building of houses, and for what reason should we stand for any interference in the organisation of the building trade. These are things that more than all others might be faced frankly by everybody. You have so many thousands of people living under the conditions that prevail in the City of Dublin and you must look after them. What is called the slum problem in Dublin is not a simple matter, and more is required than to build decent houses for the people.

I quite agree with Senator Johnson, but I do not think that anybody suggested that the people occupying places in Dublin called slums, are entirely thriftless people, or very poor people. I know there are many families living under appalling conditions that have, for a long time, £3, or £4, or £5 a week coming into them. I know there are families living like that who, of themselves, have no desire to shift from their surroundings. We have also, in what are called slum dwellings in the city of Dublin, some very valuable property that requires to be conserved with the greatest possible care. A lot of that property is not controlled, at present, or not controlled in a proper way, so as to keep the houses in repair and in proper condition, and unless something is done to conserve that property we will be faced with a much worse housing problem in the city of Dublin in ten years more than we have now, so that when we come to consider the City of Dublin itself, we are faced with devising measures for the conserving of very valuable property in the slums; and for seeing that such re-modelling as is required is carried out by some one. We are faced with the problem of providing suitable accommodation for the working classes convenient to their work. We are now in the position that it has been admitted that in the matter of apartment houses in Mercer Street the building costs are £190 a room. We know that if that particular type of housing accommodation is to be provided in the city at a reasonable rent, seeing that most families desire to live close to their work, we will also have to provide other houses outside at reasonable rents. We have to consider the number of people involved and the circumstances under which they are living, and at the same time we are asked to provide money to assist the ordinary type of person to build houses, to provide money to enable labourers in the rural districts to get houses; and to provide money by way of subsidy to enable workers in towns to get houses at rents that they are able to pay. On the last Housing Bill we said that we were going to concentrate on the four-roomed house rather than the five-roomed house. We were criticised by Senator Johnson's party without any consideration of the housing conditions.

Mr. Johnson

On the three-roomed houses and the two-roomed houses.

General Mulcahy

We are faced with the situation that if we go to a country like our own, Sweden, we find that fifty per cent. of the inhabited houses there consist of a kitchen and two rooms, or with even less accommodation. Here, with a housing problem that has been left us by governmental and industrial conditions that existed in Dublin, we are criticised because we proposed to concentrate on four-roomed houses. Personally, I believe that if we are going to make any impression on certain aspects of the housing problem, we will have to get a cheaper type of house than the standard four-roomed house we are building. I think the Senator will understand me when I say that I am not prepared at the present time to discuss what is to be done with regard to the slums in Dublin until we have cleared the public mind more in respect of what I call the economic side of house building. As I said before, in a country where agriculture is the main industry, it is argued that as workers in non-rural industries comprise more than half of the whole population, they must be assisted in respect to housing. To do that means that the country cannot provide houses for the very poor and that it will take a long time to clear away the legacy of bad housing conditions that a certain number of decades here left us. The present Housing Bill is offered as a continuance of the Government's policy of providing houses, to stimulate the building industry so that it may get on its feet and organise itself and by giving subsidies to assist private capital to build until the price of houses reaches a normal level. The policy has helped the building industry and has helped to induce private capital to invest in house building by giving subsidies to local authorities and public utility societies. This Bill is a continuation of that policy. The Seanad need not expect that Bills of this kind will come before it annually. We are leading up to the position in which we will have to deal with the general housing question and deal with the whole housing requirements in a comprehensive way. We are looking forward to the time when there will be no restrictions, no subsidy for housing except so far as the very poor are concerned, or for the clearing away of insanitary areas, and leading up to the time when the building industry will stand on its own feet like any other industry.

Sections 54 to 59 agreed to.