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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 28 Jan 1932

Vol. 15 No. 8

Land Purchase Annuities.

I beg to move:—

"That, having regard to the White Paper entitled ‘Land Purchase Annuities,' dated the 8th December, 1931, and presented to both Houses of the Oireachtas by Order of the Executive Council, the Seanad is of opinion that the Executive Council is deserving of censure (a) for its failure to deal with the question of the legality of the payment of Land Purchase Annuities until such question had become a major political issue, and (b) for then printing at the public expense what is in effect an ex parte statement on such issue.”

I do not intend to discuss the particulars set out in the pamphlet circulated by the Minister on the subject of the land purchase annuities. That is a matter for lawyers to go into, and lawyers are going into it. If the document had been sent out by the Cumann na nGaedheal Party there would not be the same objection to it as there was because it was sent out by the Ministry with the imprimatur of the Government. This particular document was issued last February, and strangely enough, nothing was done in connection with the matter until the eve of the General Election. Then only was it distributed. It was passed around on the evening of the day when the Dáil last sat, and a day or so before the Seanad sat. I presume the object was to prevent its being discussed either in the Dáil or Seanad. That is only in agreement with the way the matter has been treated for the last eight years, I might almost say ten years. During the whole of that time information that was pressed for again and again was refused or evaded, and no attempt was made to show any legal rights whatsoever. If this document had been laid on the Table or published in any way seven or eight years ago, or even five or six years ago, at the time the Ultimate Financial Settlement was made, it would have been very helpful, because we would know exactly what we had to talk about. If the arguments in the document were correct, that would put an end to the whole matter. There would have been no further agitation or bother about it, and we would have been saved a great deal of annoyance. If it had been shown to be incorrect, then the country might have been saved three million pounds per year. No such attempt was made, however. It was not even announced that the Minister acted on the advice of his law advisers. It was just given as a personal question.

I shall just run through a short history of these matters to show how often information has been demanded. In January, 1922, a document was signed called "Working Arrangements for the Treaty." That was signed by all the Irish Ministers who went over to London quite secretly— no one was told about it. They went over and signed the document—a long document in which many things were included. The land annuities were specially mentioned. That was not a wise thing. I will not say it was a very wrong thing, because it was a time of great pressure immediately after the Treaty—the very month after the Treaty. No doubt those Ministers who went over could not be expected to be thoroughly well-informed on all these subjects. All the more reason, however, for not going over and signing a long document full of arrangements of different sorts without asking anybody. What was worse was that when they came back they kept the matter concealed for 18 months—not a word at all about it. It was published 18 months afterwards by the "Irish Times" under the heading of "Secret Document." There is one point that I wish to refer to about that document, that Mr. Michael Collins, who was over there, made a note that he wished the question of land purchase to be postponed. That is all I have to say on that. The document was not very important because it was only a temporary one. Still it was a very bad beginning.

The next thing that happened was that on 1st April British Orders in Council were issued containing statements about the land annuities and directing that they should be handed over to the British. The next thing was the Appropriation Bill, 1923, which was brought before the House. The land annuities were mentioned in that. When it came to the question of the details of that, the President, who was in charge of it at the time, asked that the subject be not discussed or discussed as shortly as possible, because he said it was urgent to pay that money out within a few days and therefore it should not be discussed. It was not discussed. I presume nobody who was in the Dáil at that time—there are one or two of them here now—knew much about it. I do not suppose anybody did. It was passed without question. The next thing that happened was that a Land Act was passed in the same year in which a section was inserted providing that the land annuities should be handed over under the direction of the Minister for Finance. If people had been very expert in the matter, it is very likely that that might have been taken more notice of, but no notice was taken of it for the reason mostly, I think, that the British were not named in it. It was laid down in such a way that most of us believed that the money was being kept in this country. As a matter of fact, I asked two Senators at the time it was going through what was going to happen to the land annuities, whether they would be kept in this country or handed over to Great Britain. One said they were going to be kept here and the other the opposite. They were both directors of the Bank of Ireland, and I thought they would have some information, but they seemed to differ.

On 20th March, 1924, as I had been inquiring into the matter, I put down a motion on the Order Paper asking that papers on that subject should be laid before the House. Nothing was done about that. As a matter of fact, it was the present Cathaoirleach who seconded the motion. Then in December, 1925, we come to the Partition Act. The President then announced with a great flourish that the Free State had a clean slate—I think those were the words he used—and that it was the only country in the world that owed nothing, forgetting that £100,000,000 was due in land annuities, according to his own account, £1,000,000 for R.I.C. pensions, and other matters up to £5,000,000. That was all part of the clean slate. In March, 1926, the Minister for Finance went to London. No one asked him to go, so far as was known. He did not tell the Dáil he was going, he did not tell anyone, except, I suppose, his own followers and the other Ministers. He went over and signed a document which he called the Ultimate Financial Settlement. I do not think it will be ultimate, anyway that is what he called it. He did not inform the Dáil of what he had done when he came back in March. There was not a word spoken about it, and no one in the country knew about it until November. For nearly nine months it was kept a dead secret, although it contained most important matters. One-fifth of the whole revenue of the country was being sent away to Great Britain. Yet he did not inform the Dáil, he kept it secret. Enormous sums were kept secret until November. I do not know that there is any other country in the world where that sort of thing could go on. I cannot understand what the object of this secrecy was, why the country was not told that these agreements were being made.

Cathaoirleach

Was land purchase included in that agreement?

Yes, certainly. It was one of the principal points in it, and not only that but income tax and various things about land purchase were in that agreement. The whole sum amounted to over £5,000,000— about one-fifth of the total income of the country.

I go back to the Treaty for a moment. The Treaty laid it down that if there was not an agreement between the two States as to the financial arrangement it should be left to an impartial person or persons to go into the matter and decide it. Ministers apparently did not think that that was a good way of doing it. They thought that a settlement between Ministers here and those on the other side would settle the matter better than an impartial court. Of course there is no such thing in the world as an impartial court; there may be in the other world, but not in this. We have just had the example of Judge Feetham. He was not impartial. There was a great difference between the appointment of those two courts. On the boundary question it was laid down that the British Government should have the appointment of two members of the Commission and this Government only one. On the question of finance the Irish Free State has as much right to appoint the Tribunal as the British Government and they could have appointed a Judge Feetham from their point of view who would make quite a different arrangement. They preferred however to settle it in their own secret way. The Minister went over to London totally unequipped for any such arrangement with any such lot of people as those he met, which included the whole British Treasury—the most expert people in the world of finance. An unfortunate Minister from here went over and met the British Ministers under these circumstances and tried to settle the question with them. What chance had he? About as much chance as a baby would have against a lion. However, he was very confident. He told nobody and did not ask anybody's opinion. He went over and to show how little equipped the Minister was for anything of the sort I shall read something he said about it himself. He was asked one time: "What about the annuities?" He was pressed to make some statement and this is the answer he gave.

"If a case can be made to show that the annuities formed part of the public debt of the United Kingdom we"— that is Mr. Blythe and Mr. Churchill —"agreed that they should not be so considered." That was a personal arrangement between those two and nobody else. The Minister and Mr. Churchill agreed that they were not to be considered as part of a public debt. That ended that part of the matter.

Again he was asked "if any set off against these claims were made" and this is the answer he made out. He said: "Mr. Churchill had refused to discuss the matter because the amount was so large." It was so large Mr. Churchill refused to discuss the matter and he (Mr. Blythe) said: "Thank your honour. In that case we won't charge it," and so on. That is what I have to say about that.

I brought forward a motion in the Seanad to discuss the question of the Ultimate Financial Settlement, and while I was doing so Senator Mrs. Wyse Power asked a question of the Minister: "Where in the financial agreement between the two States is it shown that the land annuities should be paid to England?" Mr. Blythe, in reply, said: "We never disputed this liability. We do not dispute it now. We think it a just claim. I daresay we could prepare a legal argument, but we believe it to be a just debt. There is no specific reference to it in the Treaty. It is one of those matters that had to be argued out in detail." Yes, in detail, and in secret, he might have added. Senator Mrs. Wyse Power then said: "At the time I took it from the Minister that there was some specific agreement, and I voted with those who believed in paying the annuities. We now learn for the first time there was no specific agreement, but an assumption by the Executive that it was a just debt." Colonel Moore then said: "The Minister has not replied to my motion," and I merely asked him to give some sort of reply.

The Cathaoirleach (Lord Glenavy) said: "You must leave that to himself. If he has not it is the worse for himself."

It was also asked, I remember, at the time whether the Minister had any authority to hand over large sums, and he said: "Only small sums, adjustments, not large sums, which must come before the Oireachtas."

As we could get no information from the Minister at the time, the present Cathaoirleach then moved an amendment to my motion asking that a committee should be appointed to inquire into this matter of the Ultimate Financial Settlement. A committee was suggested, and I think everyone here will recognise it was a good, representative committee. I should give the names: Senators Sir John Keane, Jameson, Kenny, Dowdall, Mrs. Wyse Power, O'Farrell, Moore, Bennett. That was clearly a most impartial committee. When that amendment was proposed the Minister, Mr. Blythe, who seemed somewhat hot about the matter, said: "That committee is worse than the original proposition," and he added: "If this committee is appointed I shall not appear before it, and I shall not allow any papers to be brought before it from my office. I shall not allow any of my officials to appear before it, and what good will your committee be?" That was a nice way to treat the Seanad. The motion was put and the House divided on it, and so strong at that time was the desire to get the information, that half the Senators voted for it and half against it. The Chairman gave his casting vote against the amendment, and that ended the matter of the committee.

Some said at the time, I remember, that it was quite certain the Minister must have asked for legal advice in these matters, but the Minister repudiated that himself. He said he himself was the one to decide these questions. Now what does that mean? Five millions annually means one-fifth of the revenue. The whole of the ultimate settlement was somewhat over five millions annually. The Minister, Mr. Blythe, quoted the British Treasury as stating that the relative taxable capacity of the Free State and Britain was 66 to 1. If you multiply five millions by 66 it comes to £330,000,000, of which £3,000,000 being for annuities would amount to £198,000,000 alone. The British Government say they are unable to pay £38,000,000 now to the United States without bankruptcy. Ireland is paying comparatively more to Britain every year than Britain is paying to the United States. And that was all signed away in secret without asking anybody.

Compare that attitude with the present one; compare these six lines which the Minister spoke in the Senate and the 65 pages of a document that has been laid before us containing the names of five barristers. Why was not that done then? Why wait until now? In discussing Mr. Blythe's attitude one wonders whether he was quite as innocent as he pretended or what was his object. I do not know. As I said at the time I could not understand the first man in the street making such an arrangement. If the Minister objected to the committee suggested by the Seanad why not have this document then? He objected to come to the Seanad. Why did he not then come forward with a document similar to this or at all events tell us about the legal arguments? He kept that absolutely to himself saying that he believed it was an honest debt. The answer he gave in the country where the matter was being discussed was that I was a liar. He said that I was a conscious liar. Mr. Hogan, another Minister, said that I was a liar and that I was telling lies that I knew to be lies. That was the sort of argument these people put up instead of producing these sixty-five pages of lawyers' opinions. The very fact that the document that has been laid on the Table bears the signature of five lawyers, and that another document to the contrary bears the signatures of five or six other lawyers, shows quite clearly that there is a case to be investigated. I am not going to argue whether it is right or wrong but there is a case to be decided.

What is the duty of a Minister when there is a case to be made for this country? His duty is to go to other countries and to make the best case he can. No other statesman in Europe acts in any other way. They do the best they can, while our Ministers have gone over and systematically done their worst for us and the best for Britain. I will quote what President Cosgrave said after he came back from the signing of the Partition Treaty. He took a very fair and correct line then, and I only wish that he had, followed it up ever since. He said:

If there are any people who think that in our negotiations (that is our financial negotiations) with Britain we damaged a case that might be made by our successors, I would like to relieve their minds. We went on one issue only, our inability to pay. Not a single penny of counter claim did we put up. We have prejudiced nothing. We have lost nothing and we have received something that we never received before, and that is the goodwill of Northern Ireland.

A lot of goodwill he got out of that! If that procedure had been carried on properly it would be very wise and correct. I am sorry to say that the very opposite has taken place. So far as I can see the document now put forward was put forward with a deliberate attempt to embarrass any future Government. If, as I said at the beginning, the document had been a Cumann na nGaedheal pamphlet there would be something in that. It would be a Party question. Each Party has the right to fight for its own policy as best it can, but this Paper should have been published years ago. I would not say anything against it if it had been published as a Party document, but, when it comes forward with the imprimatur of the Government, the first thing the British Government would ask of when the case came before them would be, “What did your own Ministers say”? So far as I can see the object was to strengthen the case for Britain and to weaken that of Ireland. I believe the action of the Government was disloyal to Ireland and that it is deserving of censure and I accordingly move the motion.

I second the motion. I sincerely hope that speakers on the Government Benches will be able to make some decent case as a justification for the printing of the White Paper. I confess that to me it seems outrageous and wanting in public decency to print at the expense of the public a pamphlet which can be described as a purely Party political pamphlet. It is an astonishing thing that now, eight years after the passing of the Land Act of 1923, this is the first time the Government sought legal advice on the question of the land annuities. The only legal justification for handing over the land annuities to Britain is contained in Section 12 of the Land Act of 1923, a section which is crushed away in the middle of the Act. If the Government had any legal advice then it must have been advice that was unprintable, because it has taken eight years to produce this legal advice which they have now printed at public expense. These are the two points that really matter in the discussion, and I hope Senators who speak on behalf of the Government will make some attempt to justify an action which is certainly outrageous.

I cannot see that this document, that the mover of the motion has referred to, is in any sense a Party document. That is only his interpretation. The Government have adopted—and in my opinion rightly— a certain attitude with regard to these annuities. The matter has aroused a good deal of public interest and the Government has stated its case in a public document. Is not that right and proper? I think there is confusion in Senators' minds as between Party and Government. They are totally distinct bodies though they are allied. The Party supports the Government, but the Government is independent of Party. The Government has every right to give in a public document the reasons for its opinions. I had hoped to hear from the Senator some arguable case in favour of the attitude he adopts. My recollection may be at fault or my observation may be at fault, but I have never seen any reasoned case from the other side. We have had the reasoned case for the Government. Where is the Senator's reasoned case? Has that ever been published?

About one hundred times.

We heard general opinions. Can the Senator refer me to any document where a reasoned case was made?

There was a statement issued signed by six prominent K.C.s a couple of years ago. As independent people they pledged their legal honour and knowledge that these annuities were not payable.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. McGilligan)

Were reasons given?

Were there any arguments supporting the opinions?

I have given them a hundred times over.

Mr. McGilligan

Let the lawyers give them.

I have stated them over and over again without getting an answer from the Minister.

I have never seen any reasoned case. The Government have adopted a certain line—I think an honest line. If they had adopted any other line, the prestige of this country would have been irretrievably damaged. I may be right or wrong in that. The Senator's Party hold a different view. When the time comes, and they are in a position to enforce their view, they can do so. How they are going to do it, I do not know. However, they can consult their legal authorities and they can go across to the British Government and say: "We do not consider this amount due and we want to discuss the matter with you." That would be the constitutional way of acting but, as the Senator put it, the action to be taken would amount to downright dishonesty—that we should withhold these annuities and keep them in the coffers of this State. I am not a lawyer, but I think this question has a personal aspect. A certain fund was set up to finance land purchase. The tenant purchasers undertook to pay the annual instalments of interest and sinking fund in respect of the loan. According to all ordinary reasoning, that money is due to the stockholders under the original contract. That seems to be the whole essence of the case and all these subtleties as to the "appointed day" and the 1920 Act and so forth have nothing to do with it. I hope the Seanad will not accept this motion as it would do irretrievable harm to the good name and financial prestige of this State.

As I took part in the other discussions here on this matter, I should like to say a few words on this motion. We had a discussion on this subject in the month of July six years ago. I suggested then that the Government should prepare a statement giving their reasons for paying these annuities. That suggestion was, I think, supported by Senator Douglas and by Lord Glenavy, who was then Chairman of this House. The Government of the day took no notice of that suggestion and it is only now that we are being furnished with a statement demanded six years ago. I have no objection at all to the statement now being put forward. What I object to is that it was delayed so long. We have now the reasons stated by the Attorney-General upon which the Government based their decision to pay over the land annuities to the British authorities. From this statement, it is clear that only two points require to be elucidated in order to enable members of the Seanad and the public in general to come to a decision. The first point is: Did the Guaranteed Land Stock form part of the Public Debt of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland at the date the Treaty was signed?

Cathaoirleach

I cannot allow any discussion as to the legality of the present payments. That is outside the scope of the motion. Whether they are legal or not legal is not the question under discussion. I must confine the discussion to the question as to the alleged failure of the Government to deal with the question of land annuities and the issue of what is called the ex parte White Paper.

The other point I was about to mention was that of the "appointed day," but as you have ruled that it is not competent for me to deal with these matters, I shall not persevere. The motion is more or less confined to the time at which this document was issued.

Cathaoirleach

That is so.

And to the fact that it was prepared at the public expense. For my part, I welcome the publication of the document at any time. Better late than never. It should have been prepared and produced at the time it was originally asked for. As I am prevented from dealing with the legal points, I have no more to say on the subject.

I do not propose to deal with the long statement made by Senator Colonel Moore, which he regards as an impartial history of the events. I have only to say that a good many of the statements he made, while I have no doubt he believes them himself, would not bear the fullest investigation so far as exact accuracy is concerned. But that is not what we are considering at present. I totally disagree with him in one statement he made—that the British Treasury officials were the finest financial experts in the world and that no Minister who would come face to face with them from here could hope to succeed. Exactly what a certain other Party hopes to achieve, having regard to that statement, I do not know. But I do not accept that statement because I do not think it is accurate.

At the time they went over, about a month after the Treaty was signed.

I do not think it was accurate of the officials then nor do I think it is accurate of the officials now. However, that is a matter of opinion. We can disagree as to the competence and world-standing of the British Treasury officials. The essence of this motion, as I understand it, is that the Government failed to issue this pamphlet until the subject with which it deals had become a major political issue and, secondly, that the Government, as such, should not have issued it at all. On the first point, it is interesting to know that this only became a major political issue a few weeks ago when this document came out, because we are told in the motion that the Government delayed until this had become a major political issue. I think when the question was first raised a great many of us did not consider that it was likely to reach any great dimensions, because we did not think that there was a case being made. Be that as it may, if there are any grounds for criticism, I would agree with Senator Linehan in saying that it is because there was too much delay in issuing a statement for which the need had clearly arisen. I do not at all agree with the wording of the motion, that the Government had delayed until this had become a major political issue.

The second question is one which interests me more—whether a Government can issue a White Paper setting out the reasons, legal and otherwise, for their action as a Government. I hold that not only have they the right to do so, but that in certain cases it is their duty to do so. I think we are very much inclined—in this I agree with Senator Sir John Keane—to mix up the positions of Party and Government. Whether we like it or not, or whether we approve of it or not, the present Executive Council is the Government of this State, and the attitude they take and the commitments they make are taken and made on behalf of the community. They require in many cases the sanction of the Oireachtas, but they are acting for us, whether we are of their Party or not. It is their duty when a serious question arises on which there is honest doubt in the minds of the people, to issue a statement of the reasons for their action.

Now that may be said to be Party only in the sense that they are supported by a political Party, but if you take the line that a Government must not issue any White Paper explaining its actions, because it is supported by a political Party when you know quite well that it cannot be in power unless it is supported by a political Party, then you are going to say, in effect, that a Government must never issue a public statement at the expense of the State, setting out the reasons for the actions which it took on behalf of the State. For good or evil the commitments that were made with regard to the land annuities were made on behalf of this country, and any changes that may have to be made, if a change ever has to be made, will have to be made on behalf of this country after negotiation. If a change is made it will not be made by a political Party. It will be made by a Government in a responsible position. If the time comes when any other political Party is in a responsible position in this country, and if they attempt to make changes and enter into negotiations, whether in relation to land annuities or in any other financial matter, it will be their right, in my opinion, to issue at the public expense a reasoned statement for their action. For that reason I totally disagree with the motion. I do not think it ought to be, or that it could be properly supported by this House.

I wish to speak as a farmer who pays land annuities. I agree with Senator Douglas that this matter is a national one and not a Party one at all. Not only is it that, but it has a very serious bearing on the morals of the country. That is a very important aspect of the question, though it does not come into the motion before the House. When the Wyndham Land Act of 1903 was going through the British Parliament the late Mr. Redmond, who was then the Leader of the Irish Parliamentary Party, was taunted by Englishmen in the British House of Commons that if a loan was floated and money lent to the Irish farmers to enable them to buy out their land they could not be trusted to pay it back. When that remark was made Mr. Redmond, speaking on behalf of the Irish people, became very indignant, as he had a right to be. He protested indignantly against the statement. Speaking on behalf of the Irish people, he pledged his honour that the Irish farmer was honest enough to pay his land annuities and his just debts.

Now we have this appeal being made to the poor farmers of the country. This thing was started some few years ago. The fact that the farmers are in a very depressed state aggravates the matter. If the farmers were in a prosperous condition and had plenty of money to enable them to live in any kind of comfort this appeal that is now being made to them would not be so mischievous. It would not be apt to do so much damage to the national credit as it is at the present time. Just when the people are very badly in need of money is the time selected to ask them to withhold money which is justly due to other people. As a farmer I protest against the whole thing as being vicious, immoral and mischievous. This is the first time that the Irish people have been asked by public men to do a thing which is dishonest. I say that, speaking as I do for the decent farmers of Ireland. Senator Robinson, in his statement, mentioned public decency. He might have left that out. There is no decency whatever in this appeal that is being made to the poor farmers to withhold the land annuities. I am not going to go into the legalities of the question. I agree that it was the duty of the Government to issue that White Paper. It would have been better I think if it had been published earlier. This is not a matter of Party politics, and I hope that the Seanad, by a large majority, will reject the motion.

The motion we are discussing calls for the censure of the Executive Council for the reasons set out. I propose to give one reason why the House should not accept the motion. The reason why the Executive Council should not be censured in this matter, in my view, is because the proper way to have tested the legality of their action with regard to these land annuities was to have gone to the law courts. If that had been done there would be no need at all to publish a White Paper. That was not done. That being so, I do not see what else the Executive Council could have done in the matter.

I would like to intervene in the debate because I was very much interested in what has really resulted in Ireland's paying land annuities. I would like to say a word or two about the matter. It may be that I am raking up an old story which many members of the House are more familiar with than I am. I am afraid, however, the country has rather lost sight of what the annuities mean to Ireland. Of course, I may not be speaking strictly to the motion put forward by the gallant Colonel, but, after all, when any of us are threatened and told that a legal opinion has been taken against us the most natural thing in the world for us to do is to get our lawyers to rebut that position. Now these lawyers seem to me to deal strictly with the law, but there is something else—there is equity—and I maintain that the equities are entirely with the Government in this case. The position is curious. Seventy years ago the laws relating to landlord and tenant in England and Ireland were practically similar. During those seventy years England has practically made no change in the laws that govern a tenant's right in that country, but the position here is that we have had many changes since then. That affords an extraordinary instance of where a law may be workable and equitable in one country and may be very unjust and iniquitous even in another country.

In the year 1870 there was an effort made to establish every tenant farmer in Ireland as a leaseholder at his then rent. Many people still believe if that had been carried out the course of the Irish agitation would have been greatly altered. However, it was rejected scornfully by the English House of Commons. Later, the question came before the same Assembly in a more urgent way because of the terrible poverty and distress that arose in the seventies in Ireland. The question was examined. It was found then that the North of Ireland was doing ever so much better than any other part of Ireland, and that out of the prosperous farming community in the North Belfast had grown. It was then believed that if the Ulster custom was extended to the rest of Ireland it would have meant that we, too, would have shared the prosperity that prevailed in Belfast. That was admitted. It was certainly a great Act for the country, but yet it was found to contain a great many drawbacks. Finally, in 1902 or 1903, it was determined to buy out the Irish landlords.

On a point of order, is the Senator in order?

Cathaoirleach

As the Senator is leading up to the question of the land annuities in 1903 I have allowed him a little latitude.

It must be borne in mind that the Irish tenants at the time were not in a position to provide the money required to buy out the Irish landlords. The considerable sum of twelve million pounds had to be handed over by the British Treasury to bridge the difference that existed. That was put upon the market and in that playful way which the Stock Exchange has of describing stock, it was known as Irish bog stock. As my friend Senator Miss Browne has pointed out, there was a general impression then amongst English members of the House of Commons that the Irish farmer would not meet his rents. The people who advocated the claims of the Irish farmer then maintained, and it has since been recognised, that there is no more honest man in the world than the Irish farmer in the ordinary transactions of life.

What does Senator Colonel Moore mean by the motion? He means apparently that this question was first raised at the last settlement. He maintains that in implementing the arrangement come to between our Government and the English Government this matter of the three million a year for annuities was lost sight of. It looks to me as if the Colonel wants to win on a foul, that he wants Ireland to win on a foul, in saying that the annuities were never mentioned because the only reason he gave for retaining the annuities was that they were overlooked in implementing the bargain made between the two countries. His case is that we have a good claim in law, but not in equity, that these three million pounds belong to us.

Cathaoirleach

I think that the Senator should not pursue this question of the legality of the annuities. He is trying to prove that we are legally and morally obliged to pay the annuities.

That we are bound legally and morally to hand over these moneys to the English Government. There are other moneys which we hand over.

Cathaoirleach

We can discuss no other moneys but land annuities to-day.

At all events it does not seem to me that the claim is honest on our part. With its eyes open, the Government committed Ireland to this bargain. As I said before, it seems to me an extraordinarily good bargain, especially when one bears in mind that outside politicians have said that Ireland's share of the War Debt would be five millions, while another section with which Senator Colonel Moore is associated, if I am not greatly mistaken, put down the amount as £19,000,000 per annum. I think, considering the whole situation, that Ireland would be very foolish indeed to try to go to law on a technicality in regard to these annuities. At all events, even if we were successful in law, the course would not be equitable. That is what I maintain, and I think the general public of Ireland will endorse that view.

It might be well for the Seanad to realise how this matter became a major political issue. It is not because the Colonel started it, creating a major out of the issue, but because this is an attempt, not for the first time, to make this House a political hoarding. The suggestion to the farmers of Ireland that first emanated from the Senator's political Party, was that they could get rid of the annuities, that they would not have to pay any annuities. Next, in a sort of political sotto voce, when they found their conscience crying out against this dishonesty came the statement that they would collect the annuities. There was not a word about collecting the annuities at the beginning until the virus had set in.

That is not true.

The Fianna Fáil Party will collect the annuities on the hire purchase system as applied to land. Are the Fianna Fáil Party going to take away the farms from their present owners if there is a refusal to pay the annuities? If the land of Ireland is bought on the hire purchase system are these people who are going to collect the annuities going to evict the man who refuses to pay them?

This is entirely out of order.

I am speaking on the question of how this became a major political issue. It became a major political issue because Senator Colonel Moore for the sake of his Party made it a political issue. It was a moral issue, but it becomes an issue in major politics with Fianna Fáil before an election. Will any of them get up to deny that the annuities should be collected and are they prepared to evict those who will not pay? It is all part and parcel of the disruptive suggestion that things need not be done because they feel so far away from power.

There is one aspect of the matter that we might discuss—what would be the repercussion of the retention of these annuities apart from its effect on the Irish owners of land stock. That is a subject about which one does not hear much, that we have the owners of these annuities in Ireland as well as in England. The three million pounds would about represent the difference to Irish shareholders between the income tax of 3/6 in the £ in Ireland and 5/- in England. England without putting a single veterinary surgeon at Birkenhead to enforce an embargo on Irish cattle or without saying a word about foot and mouth disease would only have to refuse to return that difference in income tax, to reimburse herself for the three millions retained in land annuities.

I think there are two slight misapprehensions in regard to this matter. It is my opinion that the opinion which counsel gave was not that the farmers of Ireland might retain their annuities, but that the Government might retain the annuities which the farmers paid them and that it was in the power of the Oireachtas to decide whether the money should be held in this country or not. I think that was the opinion which counsel gave. That was the opinion which eight counsel gave.

Mr. McGilligan

Eight or nine?

Mr. Robinson

I will give you the odd one. The other misapprehension is that an appeal has been made to the poor farmers. That is not true, as counsels' opinion was that the money could be retained by the Oireachtas. The appeal has been made to the whole country and not to the poor farmers at all. With all due deference to Senator Gogarty, there was never any question that the poor farmers should not pay their annuities.

Mr. McGilligan

Oh, indeed, there was.

Mr. Robinson

I would suggest to Senator Miss Browne that if she would read all the speeches of the leading Fianna Fáil men, she might find that her opinion was wrong. The appeal has been made to the country and not to the poor farmers. If the Government had made a case earlier on moral grounds I daresay they would have got considerable backing, but in very recent times in newspapers, over the wireless and in speeches of public men, as well as by a deputation of clergymen in America, who presented a petition to President Hoover that these moneys should be included in the moratorium, all this atmosphere has been created by which the opinions of people are changed in regard to international debts. The Government waited until that moment to issue this paper. I think it is quite conceivable that steps might be taken which would meet with Senator Sir John Keane's approval, to get rid of this debt. I think it would have been a decent thing on the part of the Government if they had said nothing at all to the people, except: "We do not believe you will get the money, we do not think you have any right to ask for it, but at any rate we will not stand in the way. If England is agreeable that the thing can be settled amicably, there is no reason why you should not try. We wish you luck." That has not been the attitude of the Government. The attitude of the Government has been to do England's work for her and save her trouble.

I think Senator Moore is to be congratulated on the zeal and courage with which he has put forward this question of payment of tribute to Great Britain until it has become, by the admission of all parties, a major political issue. I remember that when he first raised this question in the Seanad he was received with derision. Then there came a time when he was received with a certain impatience. Now in the speech he has just made he has been listened to with respectful attention by every member of the Seanad. It is a great tribute to his apostolic zeal and to his courage.

The first observation I would like to make is that it seems to me that every person who has spoken seems to have arrived at a conclusion on this question. I think Senator Miss Browne has arrived at an opinion on this question and so strong is her opinion that I do not think she is now a competent judge.

I would not be converted.

I was somewhat more surprised to hear that Senator Crosbie had arrived at a definite opinion and if I may say so I think he arrived at a definite opinion on incomplete information. Of course, knowing Senator Crosbie as I do, I am quite satisfied that his opinion is absolutely and entirely honest, and that if he sees good reason for it he is a man who can change his opinion, and I hope when he does change his opinion that the splendid daily publication which he controls will be our greatest supporter in the South of Ireland as it has been our greatest opponent in the past.

The Chairman, I think, has very rightly excluded from this discussion the question of the legality of the claim which we make, that the proceeds of the land annuities are not payable to Great Britain. If I may say so I think fairly enough also he has allowed Senators to refer to the moral obligation, the moral question, and this moral question has been very much stressed in this House to-day by Senator Miss Browne. It has been dwelt upon also by Senator Sir John Keane, who is always insistent that he is not a lawyer. Very well, now he is a moralist and I will not be as gentle perhaps with Senator Sir John Keane as I was with Senator Miss Browne. Then we had Senator Bagwell also on the moral issue.

Mr. McGilligan

On the legal issue I think.

That might be expected. I did not hear Senator Sir John Griffith talk about the moral issue. He will listen, will hear the matter debated and will arrive at his conclusion at the end.

Is the Senator willing to leave the matter to Senator Sir John Griffith?

I would be inclined to leave it to Senator Sir John Griffith. I think Senator Sir John Griffith would be a most admirable president of a tribunal of arbitrators to decide a question like this. I do not think I would have Senator Douglas. I think he has taken a view on this question without full information, and I do not at all blame any person for being somewhat ignorant on this question. I do not know whether any of you have read the White Paper which is under discussion. It was demanded six years ago; it was promised twelve months ago; it has appeared now.

We have.

Its period of gestation was twelve months. It is not an attractive production. Senator Wilson says he has read it. I ask other Senators have they read it? It is not a very readable document, but when our answer is produced they will read that, because it will be readable.

Now that Senator Comyn is asking a question may I ask one? Would he enlighten us as to the difference in millions sterling between what was paid by tenant farmers in rents and what they are contributing to-day by way of annuities? He will find that it exceeds twelve millions sterling.

These were the days of the rack rents. Senator Fanning's people paid very heavy rents for the lands of Tipperary and were prosperous. I am certain they were. That is not the question under discussion now. The moral aspect of this question has been raised. It has been mentioned by members of the Seanad. It has been put to me no later than this morning by a very distinguished lawyer who said "Yes, you may have the law, but what about the morals of the question?" The chairman has allowed you to dwell on the morals of the question and it will be for me to reply. I hope I will reply as briefly as I can. I am not taken by surprise, because the five very eminent counsel— I think there were five with the Attorney-General—who had been asked by the Government whether the claim of the Free State to retain in Ireland the proceeds of the land annuities is valid in law, conclude their arguments with this sentence: "For the foregoing reasons, we are of opinion that neither in international law, equity or common honesty, is that claim sustainable." Therefore I am not taken by surprise, but you will observe when five lawyers are so gravelled for legal principle that they have to talk about common honesty their case is bad enough.

Now that reference to common honesty and the references that have been made here enable me to dwell at some length and in some detail on a few of the transactions of the British Parliament in relation to Irish land. What was the first transaction? It was a transaction whereby the British Parliament promised the land of Ireland in exchange for loans. After the almost absolute rule of the Tudor monarchs when the Parliament of Westminster was struggling against the claims of the Stuarts, money was required, and that money was supplied by the London companies and by the financiers of London to the Parliament.

There were no Consols in existence when Parliament was struggling against the King. Money was supplied by those companies, and on what was it supplied? On the promise that in case Parliament was successful and the confederated Catholics of Ireland were defeated, in case the supporters of the Stuarts in Ireland were defeated, that their lands would be confiscated and that they would be handed over to the London companies, the other financiers and the officers and soldiers of fortune in discharge of the public debt of the British Parliament. That is the origin of the transaction. This is where the first dishonesty in relation to this matter and the only dishonesty arose. Parliament was successful. The confederated Catholics were overthrown and the supporters of the Stuart cause in Ireland were dispossessed and the lands were confiscated without any compensation by the British Parliament and handed over by the British Parliament in discharge of the debt of that Parliament, and the confederated Catholics, and the upholders of the Stuart cause, became tenants in Tipperary and elsewhere at rack rents of the soil that they had previously owned. They and their descendants continued tenants at rack rents of that land. That is the historical position. It is not necessary for us to dwell too much on that, because the descendants of these men have reversed the confiscation. They are now the owners of the soil of Ireland and there is no sort of parallel between the position of the man who was compulsorily a tenant farmer in Limerick, Kerry or Tipperary and the man who was a tenant from year to year of land in England.

That is the honesty of the transaction. That was the impossible position when the Irish gradually rose out of the despondency of defeat, when they combined, when they agitated, when it became impossible to hold them down as serfs any longer. It then became a matter of British Imperial policy to see how the adventurers, the people who had got land from the British Parliament, could get out on the best terms possible for themselves. That is all I will say as to the honesty of the transaction. In regard to the legality of the transaction what I say is this. We have read this White Paper. We are glad the White Paper has been issued. It has taken twelve months to prepare. We have had to prepare our reply in twelve or thirteen days. I think that reply will be at least equal to the White Paper in lucidity, and certainly it will be convincing. I ask everyone of you members of the Seanad before you discuss this question again to make yourselves thoroughly acquainted with the argument on each side. I am sorry that I could not be allowed to occupy the space of say four or five minutes to detail the two reasons—they are really in a very narrow compass, in the first place the land stock was undoubtedly a Government stock secured by moneys which were raised by taxes and which went into the British Treasury. Every penny of the Guarantee Fund passed through the British Treasury and under the Act of'91, that bog stock that has been referred to, in Section 15, sub-section (2), of the Act of '91, was interchangeable for Consols.

Cathaoirleach

I would not pursue that aspect any further.

Mr. McGilligan

Because it was not.

I would like to ask the Senator what is the percentage of Irish land annuities retained in this country, and how much do we export?

Ask the Minister that.

I will try to answer if I may. We certainly welcome discussion.

I am open to conviction.

I will not convict the Senator, but I will convince him. We are certainly most anxious to have this thing fully and calmly discussed. Senator Fanning has asked me a question, how much of that guaranteed land stock is held in Ireland. We have asked a somewhat similar question. We have asked how much of the guaranteed land stock—what was called bog stock—is actually in existence at all. Because that bog stock was at a higher interest than Consols, and it was to the interests of the Treasury under Section 15 (2) to exchange that bog stock for Consols and make 5/- per cent. on the transaction. That is the question we have asked. How much bog stock is in existence at the present time?

Cathaoirleach

It is outside the scope of the motion.

I simply asked the Senator a question, because I came to the conclusion that he knew all about it.

I have answered. I have given the best answer I can. We want to know how much of that bog stock is in existence at all. Why was it called bog stock? Not that it had any inferiority to Consols, but because it was unpopular on the London Stock Exchange, for the reason it had been issued direct to the vendor of land and the stockbrokers in London made no profit on the transaction. That is the reason why it was decried and called bog stock.

I think I have dealt with the imputations in regard to the immorality of the contention of Colonel Moore. I know that these imputations are not prompted by malice, but I believe that they are prompted by a lack of knowledge of this very complicated question. I support Colonel Moore in his motion. I congratulate him on the success of his campaign, but while I do that, I say that I personally am gratified that even at the last moment the Government has produced this White Paper. The White Paper itself has given me great satisfaction, because all through this controversy there was one fear in my mind. I was always dreading this one thing, whether our representatives in London had really bargained away anything. I now find that apparently nothing has been bargained away. I was glad to hear Senator Moore refer to what President Cosgrave had said on that matter, "that they had surrendered nothing." I scanned the White Paper anxiously to see whether any other person had surrendered anything.

I do not see that anything has been surrendered. We know the whole case now. There can be no concealed trenches in front of us now. The case is there. No new fact of importance can now be disclosed. Such new fact does not exist. We know the true case, the full case. We are gratified that the case has not been given away and we are quite confident of the decision of any impartial tribunal.

Will the Senator accept their judgment?

We are quite confident that as a result of a full argument and a patient hearing we would be successful.

Mr. McGilligan

And if you are not?

The resolution that has been put before us speaks of censure on the Executive Council for its failure to deal with the question of the legality of the payment of land purchase annuities. Whatever the intention was, if this resolution is passed in its present form I think it well might be claimed in the country that the movers of it were questioning the legality of the payment of land purchase annuities, which obviously means the payment by the tenant purchaser. That is not the intention. But as drafted this motion might well be taken in the country to mean that; it might do a big harm to the cause which Senator Robinson spoke of, as having no connection with the payment by the tenant purchaser of the annuities which the tenant purchaser had promised to pay.

I cannot but admire, as Senator Comyn has done, the pertinacity of Senator Colonel Moore in pressing this case forward and I cannot but admire the ingenuousness with which he has put forward this motion. There is an implication of blame for allowing this question to become a major political issue. The Senator has been successful in pressing his question forward until it has become a major political issue here. That is to say he has induced perhaps the largest political Party in the country to make this a political issue. And having succeeded in doing that with one Party, the other large Party in the country has followed the same line and has equally committed a grave political fault in making what ought to be a national question into a Party issue in this country.

The case has been made by the Fianna Fáil denunciation of Ministers for their subversiency, for their disregard for the national finances and then, of course, the Government spokesmen come along and denounce the Fianna Fáil Party as embezzlers and all kinds of frauds and generally impute to them immoral motives. If this question is one worthy of consideration at all, Senator Colonel Moore having succeeded in persuading a responsible political Party that here was a possibility of retrieving the fortunes of this country by legal methods under law, surely it was the right policy for that Party to have made it clear that they stood for what they conceived to be the law in the matter, and when the opportunity came to them, as they had every right to expect it would come to them within a reasonable time, then they would make the claim on behalf of a united country. Instead of that, it has become a Party issue in this country, and on both sides, in my opinion, any reasonable claims that could be put forward in the country's interests have been seriously prejudiced. Senator Comyn dealt with the moral issue, the question of the honesty of the transaction and he went back to the Confiscation. I wonder whether it is on that ground that the Fianna Fáil Party is making a plea for the retention of the annuities in this country?

I say that I was precluded from going into the legal aspect, and I dealt with the imputation made that this was an immoral claim.

If we are going back to the origin of all properties as a justification for action to-day, then we are going to raise very many more questions of a similar kind. And I, as a realist politician, cannot blind myself to the fact that the present position, the position of land purchase annuities and the method of settlement, was arrived at on the demand of the Irish people. It was the Irish people who demanded that the land question should be settled by means of land purchase, so that there is no good now in going back to the Confiscation. I think we cannot go back beyond the time when the demands of the Irish people in this matter were conceded by the British Parliament.

Senator David Robinson threw some light upon the attitude of his Party about which I had not been clear, and I think it is important to find out whether his is a correct statement. He said that the opinion of counsel—I think there were seven or eight counsel—was to the effect that it was within the power of the Oireachtas to enact that the annuities could be retained.

Mr. McGilligan

Is that right?

The document is published.

Mr. McGilligan

All right.

There is no use in trying to twist something into what Senator Robinson said.

I said it was my opinion, but that I might be wrong, that it was the view of counsel. I do not think I said any more than that.

I do not put that forward for the purpose of making a debating point. I hope the document Senator Comyn speaks about will elucidate the matter. I understand the general case made by Senator Colonel Moore, but I have not been able quite to understand their position. The actual opinion of counsel should have been quoted. If Senator Robinson were correct then I could fall in with it immediately; I could agree entirely with the proposition that it is within the power of the Oireachtas to enact that the annuities could be retained.

I regret very much that this issue has become a major political issue, and I can only feel that the putting down of the motion is a part of the campaign to make it a still greater political issue. It is part of the political fight on this issue. I think it is a bad move and it ought not to be encouraged by the votes of this House. The case is made that under the law there is no obligation on the Executive Council to transfer the collected annuities to Britain.

Apart from their own statutes.

The Senator again throws a little light upon the question when he says "apart from their own statutes." I had come to the conclusion, being merely an ignorant layman on these matters, that the challenge that had been made by Ministers to Fianna Fáil to go to the Irish Courts to have this proved was an obvious trick, because it seemed to me to be clear that Irish Free State law certainly gave power to the Executive Council to transmit these annuities. There is a legal question at issue, and I cannot discuss it. Lawyers differ as to the legality. Yet, it is expected that by reason of statements on public platforms in the country and at crossroads, the elector is going to decide on the legality of the question as between two sets of lawyers. Even this House, while it is competent to make laws, is not competent to decide legal issues. Yet, this House is asked to decide the question.

The Senator is too severe.

I wonder is it suggested that in 1931 or 1932 the issue could be decided in the Irish Courts? Could it be decided in the English Courts? Would the decision of English judges satisfy the complainants in this case? It would not. Can an impartial tribunal from overseas be expected to decide the issue as a matter of law? Is it British law or Irish law, or will it be decided on general grounds of equity or international law? Is this country expected to accept the decision of that Tribunal and never raise the question again? It would seem to me that there is still further ingenuousness in the drafting of this motion. The Executive Council, it says, is deserving of censure for its failure to deal with the question of the legality of the payment. The Executive Council did an executive act prior to 1923, and certainly after 1923. I think we have a right to presume that in doing that act they were doing it according to the advice of their legal advisers.

They said they were not. Mr. Blythe definitely said that on his own. I quoted him.

Whether they were or not, we have a right to assume that they were doing it on the advice of their legal advisers. Having done that, could we reasonably expect that they would question their act as a legal act? I do not think we could. They might resign if they did discover that they had committed a major blunder. They might resign and give the hint to their successors that here was a major blunder which, when corrected, would result in the retention to this country of a very large sum of money. I cannot think that they should be expected to raise the question of the legality of their own acts.

On this matter I feel that there is a division of opinion amongst competent lawyers. Assuming that Senator Robinson's interpretation is incorrect and that there is a division of opinion amongst competent lawyers as to the obligations of this State—the legal obligations of this State apart from the 1923 Land Act—then it seems to me that it ought to be reserved for discussion with the united backing of all Parties and not raised as a Party political issue within this country. Let us assume there is a legal flaw. The intention of the parties who made the agreement is clear and to me this is the weakness of the claim for an impartial tribunal not bound by British law, not interpreting British or Irish law, but interpreting the equity of the case made on both sides. An impartial tribunal is naturally going to be very greatly swayed by the intention of the parties who made the agreement.

Surely the tribunal will go according to law?

Which law?

The law of England— the law that was in force at the time the Treaty was passed.

Then it is to be an English lawyer interpreting English law. There is a possible legal flaw, but the intention of the parties as stated by the two principals agreeing was not in agreement with the law if there is a flaw in the law.

My friend is now going into the legal aspect.

I have no intention of discussing the legal aspect.

Surely there is no question of intention when there is a legal document?

That is right. I have very good reason to believe that high legal authorities in England do consider that there may be some doubt as to the obligations under English law of the right under English law for Britain to receive the annuities. That being the case, where are we? Surely it is a matter for negotiation between the two Governments and surely the chances of success in that negotiation are not going to be helped or maintained by the kind of controversy that is being carried on in the country and that will be carried on in the next few weeks?

Any chance of this country's getting a good return, if we decide to make a claim because of the legal defects, is going to be seriously prejudiced by the kind of contention that has been going on and that will be continued. I, too, was glad to hear Senator Colonel Moore read the quotation from the President that nothing that they had done in arriving at the final settlement had prejudiced their successors. I believe that this question cannot be dissociated from the question of the final settlement and of the other relations between Great Britain and the Free State of a financial kind. I believe it cannot be dissociated from the general opinion that is abroad now, that there must be a resettlement of international debts and a revision of international obligations of a financial character. I think they all have to be dealt with and considered.

Cathaoirleach

I think we must dissociate ourselves from it now as we are dealing purely with the land annuities.

If there is going to be any success in the negotiations for a revision of the land annuities it can only be achieved when there is a demand made after full examination into all the circumstances. Then you can make your claim with the backing of all Parties. But surely we ought not to prejudice the possibilities of that claim by making statements such as have been made but which I hope will not be repeated on the hustings during the next three weeks.

In this motion I see the statement in clause (a) "the question of the legality of the payment of Land Annuities," and I wonder what effect that kind of motion will have on the farmers of the country. I take it Senator Colonel Moore meant the question of the payment of land annuities to Great Britain. I do not know whether the Senator meant that or not or whether he wished to make political capital out of this motion. That class of motion, whether it is right for the farmers to pay land annuities or not is one that ought not to have been brought up here.

Was it ever done under the Land League? Would you have been a Land Leaguer?

Yes. The Senator meant to put this up before the farmers. We cannot accept Senator Johnson's contention then that he meant the payment of land annuities to Great Britain. It is a question of whether the farmers ought to pay land annuities or not.

Do not think anything of the sort.

That is what he says. It is a question of the legality of the payment of the land annuities. When did it become a political issue? Was it a political issue at the last election? I do not think so. I think the first we heard about it was at the Longford-Westmeath election. That is when it came to a head, about 1927 or 1928. Considering all the law officers' work, I think the White Paper is not such a belated document as is sought to be made out. I do not think the question became a political issue until now. It is practically only now that it is coming before the public. The moral aspect of the question has been referred to. Would it be moral for any Executive to take a man's money when he is paying his debts and put it to some other use?

That is the legal question again.

I am speaking about morality. I am not speaking about the law. Supposing Senator Comyn backed a bill for me in the bank and I was paying by instalments and I bought a cow or twenty cows and was paying these instalments and Senator Comyn gets the money from me.

I hope I shall be allowed to answer the Senator.

You have not the right, because you have already spoken. The question arises, should anyone take my repayments in discharge of my debts and put them to some other purpose? That is the moral aspect of it. I am asking whether it would be right for any Government to take the repayments of money which I owe and apply them to some other purpose.

The British Government did so.

That is one aspect of the moral question. I can quite understand what a great question can be made of this on platforms and which is intended to be made, because the Senator has definitely put it down that way in order to appeal to these people in the country. Of course counter-propositions will have to be put up against that. The statement of the leaders of Fianna Fáil is that the farmers are a kind of State tenants, that they hold their land from the State, and that they are not the owners of the land. That is the aspect put forward by several of them. In the beginning, the leader of the Fianna Fáil Party said that since the farmers will not have to pay annuities they could very well pay taxes for the privilege of working the land.

He is not here to answer the Senator.

I read the interview which he gave to the "Manchester Guardian."

Is this in order, if the legal question is not in order?

Cathaoirleach

I do not think it is.

It is a question of morality, whether Deputy de Valera or anyone else has a right to take my money and put it to some other purpose.

Cathaoirleach

The Senator is entering into the question of the payment of land annuities.

Senator Johnson spoke for half an hour on the question of the payment of land annuities to England and you allowed him.

Cathaoirleach

I may have been wrong in allowing Senator Johnson to deal with that question, but I cannot allow the Senator now to go into this.

He spoke about whether in law these annuities should be paid to England or not and said there was a doubt on that point.

Cathaoirleach

We cannot discuss whether in law they should or should not be paid. I have tried to point that out more than once during this debate. The legality of the payments is set forth there and the motion is purely a vote of censure on the Government for not having brought that out earlier.

In the course of the discussion, it was brought out that it was not a question so much of the legality of the payment of the land annuities by the farmers, but whether the Executive Council in law should pay the money over to England. That was the point made by Senator Johnson.

Cathaoirleach

I did not take that to be his point.

That question was raised. If you will not permit me to answer that I shall have to go on to something else. I think it is hardly fair to allow one Senator to ramble over the whole history of the Land Acts and another Senator to speak on this particular question and debar me from making the observations I want to make. However, I will come to something else. When did this become a major political issue? I maintain that it did not become a major political issue until now and that that is one of the reasons why the statement is made here by Senators, who no doubt think they are competent to judge in these matters, perhaps in good faith. It is, however, an agitation which is unsettling the minds of the people whom we wish should not be thinking of the question of legality but should pay what they know in their hearts to be due. If they get it into their heads, as a result of this agitation, that there is a question as to whether they should pay, you cannot put the whole of them in prison and you are going to have a position which will be a very dangerous one. I do not think it is Party politics. Speaking as one who is a supporter of Cumann na nGaedheal, I believe that every man in Fianna Fáil has a right to his own opinion, but I say to both Parties this question should not be brought up at all in this House. If I got up to answer the question raised here I might say some things which might raise doubts in the farmers' minds as to whether he is the owner of his own land at all. I might create a kind of strike against the whole lot and no farmer in the country would pay and we would create more disturbance than ever happened before.

Meantime the money will be running out of the country.

The money does not run out of the country. It goes to pay those living in England who own the stock and it also goes to pay those who live in Ireland who own the stock. There is no use talking about the money running out of the country. It is paid from the Irish Exchequer to an account with the Bank of England called the Irish Land Purchase Account from which it is distributed to the holders of the land stock wherever they live.

On the question of the ex parte statement I have nothing to say. I am sorry this motion came up in the form it did. It is either a betwixt or between and one does not know how to argue the case. I am satisfied the Government has done right in placing the legal aspect of the case on the table here. I was at first in doubt as to the legality of these annuities being sent out. I am satisfied now there is a good case on the Government side and I am waiting for the other side to put forward their case. But I deprecate bringing forward a motion of this kind rising the minds of the people against paying money which they will have to pay in the end.

I have listened to these arguments until they are absolutely worn out threadbare. I refuse to regard this as a national debt, but as a personal liability which I hope my countrymen and women will honourably discharge. That is my contribution to this debate.

Mr. McGilligan

I would like to analyse at the beginning this motion we have before us. The Seanad is invited to pass a vote of censure upon the Executive "(a) for its failure to deal with the question of the legality of the payment of land annuities until such question had become a major political issue."

Apart from the doubts created by the dubiousness of proving the legality of the payment of the land purchase annuities, there is no description as to whether it is payment out of the country by the Exchequer that is questioned or whether it is a question of the legality of the farmers' payments. That dubiety raised by the ambiguous phrase is in line with the whole policy adopted in regard to these matters. There has never been clarity as to what the claim is, and the programme shifts from month to month according to the reactions of the public towards it. Leaving that out, the time point is chosen, in which the question becomes a major political issue. What sort of motion of censure would be put down by Senators who showed themselves so aggrieved by the expenditure of public money when this pamphlet was issued if it was not an issue of the major type? The Senator is only aggrieved by the payment of public money when the matter becomes important. It is not reasonable to take up that attitude. Further we are told it is an ex parte statement upon the issue. It is far from it. On that may I point out the challenges issued from time to time with regard to this? I take a pamphlet issued on behalf of Deputy Geoghegan in the Westmeath-Longford election when, as Senator Wilson said, the question arose in a really important way for the first time. I call attention to the phrases used to show how the campaign has varied. The portion of the document relevant to this is:—

It is the view of a number of Irishmen that the British Government are not entitled to receive this sum of three millions a year. Three reasons have been advanced for this view. The first is that under the Treaty as amended in 1925 after the "Border fiasco" this money is not due to England.

The second reason is historical. The third reason is economic.

It is with the legal objection to payment I have been most intimately concerned. I have long since stated that in my opinion, under the Treaty as so amended, this money is not due. If you have the slightest doubt about my opinion or even think that it may have been coloured by my political views, then I refer you to other opinions not open to this criticism. Fianna Fáil has, through solicitors, in the ordinary professional way obtained the opinions of a number of counsel practising at the Irish Bar whose experience and eminence as members of the profession cannot be the subject of dispute. You have read in the public Press that these counsel have advised in writing that under the Treaty this money was not due. It is generally conceded that the instrument usually referred as the heads of the Ultimate Financial Settlement, signed by Mr. Blythe, has not the force of law. Fianna Fáil have given the Ministry the benefit of this advice.

What is the Minister reading?

Mr. McGilligan

I am reading from Mr. Geoghegan's election address, and he was one of the counsel who advised in the matter. It goes on:

"Fianna Fáil have given the Ministry the benefit of this advice; the matter has been the subject of public discussion for a considerable time. Many taxpayers have waited from day to day thinking that perhaps the Government would do as Fianna Fáil has done, and put forward opinions of counsel not identified with their Party, giving reasons why this vast sum of money should each year be paid to England. The public have waited in vain. Is it to be wondered that the handling of this grave matter by the Government has occasioned widespread uneasiness and has led many to secede from the ranks of Cumann na nGaedheal and join Fianna Fáil?"

The last portion, of course, has reference to Deputy Geoghegan himself, who seceded, as he put it himself.

What is the date of that?

Mr. McGilligan

The Longford Westmeath election. Deputy Geoghegan seceded from the ranks of Cumann na nGaedheal, and joined those of Fianna Fáil. I remember the reason he gave which was a very wheezy reason. That his stomach turned was the polite way he described his own revolting conduct. He is one of these counsel who gave advice. They have challenged the Government to do as Fianna Fáil had done and now when we do that it is described as an ex parte statement and it is wrong to do it.

While I am on that point, and to get this thing in a proper perspective I take another leaflet issued in this election. It is a statement made with regard to the amount of money taken from Longford-Westmeath and this follows:

"So that if the Government elected by the people would only stand by the rights of the people— rights admitted to be theirs by British Statute—the farmers, householders, shopkeepers of Longford-Westmeath need not pay one penny in the rates."

And then there is the slogan "End this Robbery."

As to the question of the legality of the payments raised there and all these phrases used, this particular document also states that

"Six of the most eminent lawyers in Ireland (including five Senior Counsel) some after months of deliberation"

It is a doubtful phrase—some of them apparently jumped at it

—"have publicly stated their opinion that the case for the retention of the Land Purchase Annuities is legally sound. The legal advisers of the Government have not replied. Their silence is an admission of the weakness of the Government case."

Yet when the silence is broken it is an ex parte statement and should be published by Cumann na nGaedheal.

Mr. McGilligan

What is the meaning of the phrase "printing at the public expense what is, in effect, an ex parte statement on such issue?” I shall refer back to these documents, because the description they give of the campaign is rather valuable. A question has been raised as to the point of time. Why was not this dealt with earlier, we are asked? One has to go back and find out when it was first raised. Senator Robinson—the Senator who is not here at present— said that this matter, in the end, depended upon the Land Act of 1923. Deputy Geoghegan, so far as his own election address is concerned, did not seem to take that point of view. The man who, if he was a lawyer, wound up a particular pamphlet with the slogan “End this Robbery” had apparently no idea that the Act of 1923 gave legal sanction for the payments. I was interested to find out what was in Senator Colonel Moore's head at the time the 1923 Bill was going through, seeing that this is such an important item. He was certainly very alert on the point of confiscation at that time. He criticised the 1923 Bill very severely. He criticised it, in his own phrase, because it was “a most unjust measure to landlords.” He coupled with himself in that phrase Senator Sir John Keane.

I did not say it was an unjust measure to landlords. I said it was unjust to the people of Ireland.

Mr. McGilligan

I shall quote from the Official Report:

"I agree with Senator Sir John Keane that it is a very unjust measure to landlords. Many of them will lose part of their income and some will lose all their income."

At that point, Senator Sir John Keane interrupted to say that he did not think it was an unjust measure. Senator Colonel Moore continued:

"I am perfectly willing to apply the words I have said as my own opinion. To the landlords who are selling it is a very unjust measure because not only do they lose part of their income, ten, twenty or thirty per cent., but in many cases they lose all their income."

What has that to do with this matter?

Mr. McGilligan

I quoted to show the Senator's point of view when the 1923 Bill was going through.

That is not within the terms of reference. What did Gladstone say in '86?

Mr. McGilligan

Senator Colonel Moore went on to say that this was a Bill which confiscated all land, and that "Cromwellism is nothing to Hoganism."

Certainly. That is a correct statement as regard Hoganism and Cromwellism. Cromwell confiscated all the lands of Ireland except part of Connacht and Mr. Hogan was confiscating not only the land of the landlords but the land of every person who owned an acre. It all belonged to Mr. Hogan. That was why I said that Hoganism was worse than Cromwellism.

Mr. McGilligan

In 1923, when this most important measure, found in the end to direct the payment of these annuities to England, and to legalise them, was going through the Seanad, the Senator was worried about the landlords. They were being deprived of their incomes.

Worried about the people.

Mr. McGilligan

The people are not mentioned in this speech. If the Senator likes, I can give him some further quotations. He said that this was a most terrible Act and "unsettles in one sweep all the settlements of land made in Ireland for the last 50 years." The speech made by the Senator was completely pro-landlord. If the point had been adverted to at the time, the people seeing the report of that speech would be inclined to say: "We know where Colonel Moore stands. He takes his place with the oppressed class—the landlords."

Every man who owned an acre was having his land confiscated.

Mr. McGilligan

This speech will be analysed in the coming weeks and the Senator will get an opportunity of explaining it.

He referred to the confiscation of Connacht.

Mr. McGilligan

"A very unjust measure to landlords." That phrase, I hope, will stare Senator Colonel Moore in the eye from the hoardings in the weeks to come. That is one statement on which we might deride the Senator and say: "We know where he stands." He described himself when he raised this point later. How did he describe himself? As a person who knows nothing at all about finance or accounts.

Bad as I was, I found out this. Even the man in the street knows it.

Mr. McGilligan

What has happened since has really proven that the Senator was correct in his description of himself.

There were other people who knew nothing about finance or accounts.

Mr. McGilligan

What was the other point? Apart from the fact that people recognised a certain amount of doubt as to whether the Senator who was believed to be a beneficiary of England at the time he was raising this point, was sincere in his demands on behalf of the people of the country—

That is the sort of sneer that you people fall back upon.

Mr. McGilligan

We found out afterwards where the idea came from. In a pamphlet issued to the Dáil—again at the expense of the public and at the request of Fianna Fáil—we discovered the roots of this whole business. This pamphlet consists of two documents described as "A" and "B", found by the police on the 10th April, 1928, during the course of a search of the premises of 27 Dawson Street, Dublin. They describe the meeting of a particular group, calling themselves Comhairle na dTeachtaí which was fighting with the second Dáil as to which was the legal and proper government of the country. A gentleman called Peadar O'Donnell, of good origin, put forward this statement:

He believed that the Government should have some kind of activity— a Government as an idea did not appeal to him. There are not many people who regard the Irish Republican Government. If there was a group controlling Comhairle na dTeachtaí, who would decide that they take one particular law on which the Free State Government is based, and issue a decree saying that that particular law is to be disobeyed. Take, for example, a group calling themselves Second Dáil to issue a decree saying that all form of payments to England should be refused. It would have several good things in its favour. If things like that could be done, I would look on it in quite a different light.

That is the origin of the Land Commission annuities campaign. That is where it starts from. Peadar O'Donnell is the man who started all this. He started it, as all the other people started their activities in connection with it, with this injunction "Don't pay."

I am not surprised at your opinions when you think that.

Mr. McGilligan

In 1929, when this matter was first raised in the Dáil, the Minister for Agriculture challenged Deputy Fogarty, who was sitting opposite him, to deny that he had stated that when this campaign was at an end no farmer in the country would be asked to pay his annuities. Deputy Fogarty stood up and said: "Why would I not say that?" The campaign certainly opened with "Don't pay." The case was not that the money should be collected and retained here.

A lot of ground has been gone over in this debate. Certain viewpoints have been taken. We have been asked not to discuss the legal arguments put forward in this document. The pamphlet is there and Senator Comyn finds it unreadable.

Did I say that?

Mr. McGilligan

The Senator finds it difficult in some way. He is disappointed because it is packed full of reason.

I have nothing but praise for my learned brethren.

Mr. McGilligan

It is packed full of reason. The opinion which the six, seven or eight lawyers gave—I do not know what the number was because it is a disputed question—on behalf of Senator Comyn's Party was very easy to read but was desperately difficult to understand. I do not suppose there has been any legal opinion issued in Ireland by any counsel to a client in the last twenty years in which there was not a statement of the reasons given which led to the formation of the opinion. What did we get from these five, seven or nine people?

Mr. McGilligan

What did we get from them? Answers to certain questions put, but not a word of reason for the answers given. What did the answers amount to? I take the same view as Senator David Robinson about that pamphlet. It amounts, in the main, to this—that the Oireachtas cis sovereign and that it can pass any Act, no matter how unjust it is. That is a fact. It did not require seven, eight, nine or ten counsel to settle that. If these seven, eight or nine gentlemen were asked, "Is it in the power of the Oireachtas to confiscate all property" they would have to say "Yes." If they were asked, instead of the question as to the retention of the land annuities, "Is it in the power of the Oireachtas to seize the land of the farmers," they would have to say "Yes."

The opinion was given before the passing of the Westminster Act.

Mr. McGilligan

That has no effect on it.

It gave an interpretation of a certain British Act.

Mr. McGilligan

It has nothing to do with certain British Acts. This was a question of the payment of these moneys. I believe that Senator Robinson's version of the position is the correct one. We hope, when the new pamphlet is issued, it will give reasons and that it will not confine itself to this easily-read type of answer which is difficult to understand. I hope that we will get reasons for the belief that certain people have.

The battle has started.

Mr. McGilligan

It is right that we should have delayed about all this. Look at all that has happened. The question had its roots in Peadar O'Donnell and the man who is incapable of understanding accounts or figures. It worked up to a by-election where the question at issue was: "Are the payments legal?" That was the beginning and end of it then. The question comes along. Debates are raised in the two Houses and one definite suggestion is made to those who have the view held by the proposer of this motion: "There is a way of testing this." I say, again, that there is a way of testing it. We get part of the answer: "Why go into the Irish courts? The 1923 Act is there and the judges will probably have to decide under the 1923 Act that the payments are at the moment being legally made and that until the 1923 Act is removed these payments are legal." Would it not be satisfactory for that Party to have it assured, even at the expense of a legal action, that the only thing that legalises these payments is the Act of 1923? Would it not be a good thing and a clarifying thing to have a legal action brought to have that determined by Irish judges? Suppose they stopped there and said nothing else, would it not be worth while?

Why did you not do it yourselves?

Mr. McGilligan

No man challenges the course of conduct which he is following.

Cathaoirleach

I cannot allow any further interruptions.

Mr. McGilligan

Why did not Senators who have this view get established by legal action at least one thing— not even the one thing—that the Act that justified these payments was the Act of 1923? That would have been something to start with.

You could not get a decision on the other point, and you know that.

Cathaoirleach

Senator Colonel Moore will have an opportunity of replying to the Minister.

Mr. McGilligan

A case could have been precisely framed seeking one answer: "Does the 1923 Act justify these payments and are the Government of the Free State bound under the 1923 Act to make these payments?" If that had been declared in the proper form, there would have been a case for saying: "Let us test this case. Let us repeal the section of the 1923 Act and let us see where we are." We have waited for that. Has there been any attempt to move in that direction? No. There has been a shift back and forward. Even Deputy Geoghegan is not going to be content with his own bit of legal opinion. He gives three reasons: (1) legal, (2) historic, and (3) economic. He is not satisfied with the legal opinion he has given, whatever interpretation of it we take—whether it is that the Dáil is a sovereign body or something else about which we have not been told. A case could have been brought in these courts on the very arguments put up by Fianna Fáil. The case is made that under the 1920 Act, which had some application to this State, we got a free gift of the annuities.

Is the Minister discussing the legal aspect of the case?

Mr. McGilligan

I am not. I am asking questions as to why certain things were not done. I am not going to debate whether a certain thing was legal or not. We are told that the Ultimate Financial Settlement brought about a clean slate. We are told that the Ultimate Financial Settlement wiped everything out.

You are entirely mistaken. What I quoted was a statement of President Cosgrave made prior to the Ultimate Financial Settlement. It was made at the time of the Partition Treaty.

Mr. McGilligan

The Senator will have an opportunity of speaking afterwards. The Ultimate Financial Settlement is the backbone of this question.

Not at all.

Mr. McGilligan

We shall find out.

Cathaoirleach

If Senator Colonel Moore would take a note of the Minister's points, he could reply to them later when the Minister concludes. That would be more seemly than having interruptions every moment.

Mr. McGilligan

Deputy Geoghegan, who is one of the men who gave advice on this question, advanced in his election address as one of the three reasons for the view he held that "Under the Treaty as amended in 1925 after the ‘Border Fiasco' this money is not due." On the settlement after the Treaty the money is not due. Let us get back to that. That is the last step in the case. The date was 1925.

On 6th December, 1921, the money was not due.

Mr. McGilligan

If I argued that the money was not due in December, 1921, the Senator would say: "Yes, but, afterwards, the Act of 1923 was passed legitimising the payment." I want to go forward a year or two. In 1925 we passed the Treaty (Confirmation of Agreement) Act. It was accepted by both Houses that the Public Debt business was wiped out. Surely a case could have been brought to see if the 1925 Act superseded the Act of 1923?

Surely the Minister is travelling far beyond the motion?

Cathaoirleach

The Senator has no reason for interrupting. He has the right of reply when the Minister concludes.

I am appealing for order.

Cathaoirleach

What is the point of order?

The Minister is speaking quite apart from the motion.

Cathaoirleach

You began at the year 1922. I think the Minister ought to be entitled to follow you in your arguments from 1922 up to now for the purpose of showing that the issue of this White Paper was not delayed. That, I think, is the point of his argument.

Mr. McGilligan

The point of my argument on this question of delay is that we waited, knowing where we were, to give these people the opportunity of testing their case as it could have been tested. It could have been tested in the Courts on the precise point: "Is it only the Act of 1923 which legitimised these payments?" A second case could have been brought. Does not the Treaty (Confirmation of Agreement) Act of 1925 completely supersede the 1923 Act? Therefore, on the contention that payment should not be made, we waited for that course to be taken, and it has not been taken. Now, we put forward our case in answer to this demand—that the public were getting dissatisfied because we had not put forward opinions of counsel and, secondly, that the Government's legal advisers had not stated their case. Other reasons might have delayed us. Look at all the hugger-mugger which occurred in connection with the case put forward by Fianna Fáil. We were told counsels' opinion was unanimous. The question was raised in the Dáil on one occasion. It was stated by a Deputy that another counsel had given an opinion not in agreement with that quoted. The solicitor who was supposed to have acted for the Fianna Fáil Party in this matter was hurriedly summoned to the House. He announced that the only opinions received were those published.

That was true. The opinion at the consultation was unanimous and signed as such.

Mr. McGilligan

We were told later by Deputy de Valera, when in America, that there was one opinion short—that there was an extra counsel and that he did not agree with the other opinions. We waited a long time to find out what he said when consulted. I know the opinion is current in legal circles that that counsel answered very pungently and briefly and that his comment on the whole case was "Tripe."

Mr. McGilligan

Tripe. That is what he said.

As a witness, I think the Minister is not credible at the moment.

Mr. McGilligan

Possibly not, but if you want to disprove what I say produce what the man said.

Is the Minister referring to what he said to his friends?

Mr. McGilligan

Not at all. Ask what was stated by the lawyer in question. Another lawyer in the Dáil told us that all the opinions had been collected and that they were unanimous. That is the hugger-mugger. Then there is a doubt as to what the opinion means. Senator Robinson has a view which I think is the correct one. He has hurriedly withdrawn from it.

Mr. McGilligan

It will put him in bad odour in the councils of his Party. However, I hope he will stick to his view. It is a correct interpretation.

Mr. D. Robinson rose.

Cathaoirleach

Your interpretation will appear on the records of the House.

Mr. McGilligan

The point has been referred to in the debate as to whether or not this claim is a sound claim, apart from the legal matter. Senator Miss Browne referred to a statement made by the late Mr. Redmond, but it is not only to the late Mr. Redmond that one can go to for this statement. Parnell said the same thing with regard to a possible repudiation of these moneys at the time when this system of financing was first thought of.

There is no question of repudiation.

Mr. McGilligan

And Parnell repudiated the idea of repudiation as earnestly as Mr. Redmond did. Mr. Healy—he was probably more responsible than any other man for certain portions of the Land Acts—when questioned about it said that if the day ever came when anybody was dishonest enough to raise such a campaign that man would fade out of public life in the country. In making that repudiation, Mr. Healy was joined by Mr. T. P. O'Connor, who was then in the House. There is not the slightest doubt that down through the generations, as Senator Johnson has said, this method of financing the transfer of land from landlords to tenants was adopted and accepted by the Irish people.

Senator Johnson has said this matter will possibly have to be left over and discussed in the atmosphere that is now growing in which international debts and the revision of international debts is being seriously considered. I would like to point out to the Senator that when international debts are being considered they are clear international debts, and that the only time anything in the nature of a commercial debt has ever been raised has been to put it against a certain sort of governmental debt in order to have the commercial debt given priority. We are very far from the day in which an ordinary debt as between the nationals of one country and the nationals of another has been questioned, but that is what is being questioned here. This is not a Government debt: this business of people who lent money, the return that they get for it, and are entitled to get.

Would the Minister say whether it is not a fact that German commercial debts are being revised in connection with international reparation debts as an illustration of the impossibility of German economic life being continued as long as these moneys go out of the country?

Mr. McGilligan

That is the exact point: that the question of commercial debts has been raised by the bankers' settlement on the plea that they cannot meet their commercial debts which they honestly want to meet if at the same time they are bound to meet reparations and war debts. The distinction is clear. We are very far from the day in which an ordinary commercial debt is in danger of being repudiated except in this country.

Is this a commercial debt?

Mr. McGilligan

It is of a commercial type undoubtedly.

What asset does it represent?

Mr. McGilligan

It represents land.

The land was there before the debt was contracted.

Mr. McGilligan

The campaign, to which this pamphlet is to some extent a reply—it simply states the reasons why we believe we are bound to meet these payments, why we have made them at all and why we are going to continue to make them—has entirely changed. First of all, the shout was "the payments are illegal.""Robbery" was the word used in Longford-Westmeath. Deputy Fogarty, in the Dáil, when questioned in front of his own Party as to whether or not the campaign was that the farmers should not pay, said of course it was. It was a late twist that this thing took after it assumed the other form. The farmers were told: "You will have to pay, but we will not pay when we get them."

"We will not pay England" was a sort of advance. Then there was a little further twist. To the farmers it was said: "You will have to pay, but we will not pay until it is proved to be legal that we should pay." The cry used to be that they were not going to pay at all irrespective of all conditions. Now it is: "We will hold them until it is proved that we legally owe them," and added to that we had the harking back to Longford-Westmeath —"even if it is proved that we are legally bound to pay, then the equities are brought in and it is said we feel that we ought not to be asked to pay because of historical associations, the conquest, and so on. Again, if it is found that in equity we ought to pay we say we cannot pay and therefore will not pay."

I might remind Senators that people who claim the protection of the Bankruptcy Court as a rule get out on terms that reflect what their conduct has been when trying to prove their bankruptcy. The man who comes forward and makes an honest declaration with regard to his debts, if his case is a hard one and he shows that he cannot pay, generally gets a decent composition; but the fellow who twists, who is dishonest and starts quibbling as to whether the debt is owing or not, who makes use of every legal quibble that can be thought of, he is generally found out and gets a very bad settlement. In this matter you have this twisting backwards and forwards as to the legality, the equity and the inability all mixed up. The last thing I have to say is: Senator Comyn is preparing an answer.

It is prepared.

Mr. McGilligan

I was going to say it must have been prepared because certain people know of it.

Do they? The Minister's information is good.

Mr. McGilligan

Deputy MacEntee, at any rate, knows about this: that it is a weak and fraudulent case. Deputy MacEntee, criticising this document, says it is a weak and a fraudulent case.

We never said that about a case submitted by any lawyer.

Mr. McGilligan

I am not saying that the Senator has said it, but I am saying that Deputy MacEntee has stated that it is a weak and a shameful case. I am glad to have it that the Senator is rather ashamed of that phrase.

Not at all.

Mr. McGilligan

Deputy MacEntee also says that the case has been prepared in shameful collaboration. The adjectives, to one who knows Deputy MacEntee, are the obvious ones to be used by him. Look at the contrast. Senator Comyn and his people prepare answers—bare, bald answers—to four or five questions capable of different interpretations, and they throw these out without reasons given, and that is supposed to be accepted by everyone as gospel. We prepared the other statement. Eminent counsel signed it. They give not merely the opinions they have arrived at, but in great detail they give the reasons that led them to form these opinions. Deputy MacEntee, I thought he had been in consultation with Senator Comyn but apparently on his own has decided that it is a weak and a fraudulent case. That is the scheme of argument with regard to this.

Senator Johnson has referred to what is going to be said on the hustings. There is the start of it. Apparently Deputy MacEntee, without taking legal opinion, and certainly without consulting Senator Comyn, has the view that it is a weak and a fraudulent case.

I understood the Minister to say that I said it was a weak and a fraudulent case.

Mr. McGilligan

I did not say that.

I said it was a poor case.

Mr. McGilligan

There is no necessity for the Senator to be mealymouthed about this when he is living in the company of those who talk this way.

I am very glad to meet them. The Minister's company is rather doubtful at the present time.

Mr. McGilligan

I was pleased to get another quotation from Deputy MacEntee.

Deputy MacEntee is not in this House.

Mr. McGilligan

I would like the public to know that Deputy MacEntee is a poet, or rather was.

There is a lot of poetry since you started.

Mr. McGilligan

Deputy MacEntee published a volume of his collected poems a few years ago. I feel delighted to be able to give to the public, who may not have seen this verse, just this one quotation.

Is this on the moral aspect?

Mr. McGilligan

The Senator puts the point: is it moral? Here is Deputy MacEntee's description of himself:

"A weaver weaving in his words A garb to clothe his nudity."

Is that not good poetry?

Mr. McGilligan

It is a little bit obscene. It may be good poetry. That is the future Minister for Finance who is going to go on the hustings against a case that has been prepared with great deliberation by eminent members of the Senator's profession, and who decides, on his own, that it is a weak and a dishonourable case, prepared in shameful collaboration with certain people whom he mentioned. That is the sort of rubbish that is talked with regard to this.

A poet's licence.

Mr. McGilligan

But Deputy MacEntee gets much more than a poet's licence. There are other people who get a licence as well as poets. There is another four-lettered word that would describe another type of person who gets a licence, and he has got it and got it in abundance. Is that the way this great case is going to be prepared, as Senator Johnson has asked, by a united nation? That is the way this whole thing is to be worked up by this type of comment in public. Is that what is described as working up a case properly? Would the Senator take Deputy MacEntee into his confidence when preparing his new brief? Let him see the substantial arguments used in this argument and how far they are going to be met.

The motion asks the Executive Council to be censured for "its failure to deal with the question of the legality of the payment of the land purchase annuities until such question had become a major political issue." What was the alternative? Not to say anything or to say it earlier.

To say it long ago.

Mr. McGilligan

Was the alternative to say it long ago when there was nobody bothering about it except the person who was incapable of understanding accounts, or to treat it in the proper time, when the matter had been debated and when a by-election had been fought on it? Finally, the Seanad is asked to say that the Executive Council is deserving of censure "for printing at the public expense what is in effect an ex parte statement on such issue.” Has any phrase yet been used to describe that as an ex parte statement of the case? Are the lawyers who have signed that people who are going to put their signature to a document—simply an ex parte document? Are they men of repute who will stand against that type of criticism? What then is to be censured? Publication at the public expense? Has the matter become so important that the public ought to be clarified so far as the public want clarification in this issue on the legal side? Is it a “scandalous waste”-that is the phrase used—of public money? I heard nobody in this House who did not express himself pleased at the fact that the arguments had been brought forward, and the same comment will be made when the arguments—not mere opinions—are brought forward on the other side.

Clearly one can see the gravamen of all this. A case has been made on the legal side about which I believe nobody has bothered except a lot of townsmen. The ordinary farmer does not care what is in that or what was in your opinions. He knows very well that the title to his land is the fact that he is paying certain moneys, and that the minute these payments stop he is afraid the title to his land is going to be weak. He is going to hold on to the payments he is making, and is not going to face the possibility of having to pay twice for his land, as will be the situation hereafter if a certain policy works. The land annuities are going to be collected. If they are not paid, and there is going to be some form of taxation, it will mean that the farmer will have to pay over again and that he will get no benefit out of the campaign.

The Minister has been allowed to stray over the rights and wrongs of this matter, but I will try to limit myself to the matter before us. He said that the first bringing forward of this business was made a matter of repudiation of the annuities. That is an absolute misstatement. I say so for this reason, that the very first public meeting called on this particular subject was announced to be held in the town of Loughrea. We had posters and advertisements issued for that purpose, and we got a telegram from the country saying that the people there were excited about the matter and were putting up flags calling on the people to attend the meeting to repudiate the payment of the land annuities. We immediately called a meeting, and late at night sent a telegram cancelling the meeting there altogether, and repudiating the statements that the payment of the land annuities was to be stopped by the farmers, and declaring that the meeting would not take place under these circumstances. That was the very first meeting called, and I know more about this matter than most people. However, we went down to Loughrea, and we found that there was a small meeting of these people. They were disappointed because we did not go in for wholesale repudiation of the annuities. We held a small meeting and told them we were not for that at all, that they would have to continue paying their annuities. Therefore the Minister has made a deliberate misstatement in that regard. I defy the Minister to mention any place where I advised people not to pay their annuities. He goes round the country with this sort of blather and these inventions, putting into the people's mouths these very scandalous and unreasonable things that they never said.

The next thing I have to say on the subject of repudiation, without dragging in the question of the tenants or of handing over the annuities, is that the Act of 1920, I think in Section 27—I am not going into the question of whether the annuities were handed over to individuals or not—states that the British Government undertakes to pay to bond holders the interest on their bonds. That is a definite statement. That is not a question as to whether that holds good or does not hold good in the Free State. It holds good for the bond holders because the British Government pledges itself to the bond holders to pay them interest on their bonds. I ask the Minister, is it right or is it not that the 1920 Act contained a section in which the British Government undertakes to pay the bond holders interest on their bonds? What then is the repudiation by this country if they have undertaken to pay the bond holders? The Minister cannot answer that question. There are a great many questions which, if I had time, I could put to him that he could not answer. He can only talk a lot and call me names just as Blythe and Hogan called me a liar and make a lot of accusations. Their whole attitude in this business is to try to frighten the people that they will be turned out of their land.

He asked why do we not go into court. They have been waiting over ten years for us to go into court. Three millions a year are being paid for ten years, while they wait for us to go into court. Their business was to find out whether it was legal or not legal. They are the Government of the country. It is not for us to go into court to prove it to them. There are over thirty millions involved, waiting for us to go to law. We are to get solicitors and lawyers and the Government would be defended by their own lawyers. They would not have to pay. I would have to pay my counsel. Mr. Blythe, beyond anybody else, did not say that they got legal advice. He said he considered it a fair debt. He never said that the Attorney-General, the judge or anybody else, assured him it was right. If that document had been published seven or eight years ago we would have known where we were. They kept it secret. Every financial document has been kept hidden from the people. They kept the first document of 1922 secret for eight months. They kept the Ultimate Financial Settlement secret for eight or nine months. When they brought it out they tried to get the discussion stopped in the Dáil. When we raised the question here, and tried to get a committee to investigate the subject. Mr. Blythe said he would not attend that committee, that he would not allow any official to attend it or any papers to be brought across from his office to it. Was not that obstruction? He was trying to have the matter concealed. He was handing over money to the British Government and trying to keep our months shut here.

The rest of the Minister's statement consisted of the reading out of extracts from election platforms. He pretended that things that were said at the last Westmeath election were not being said now. Deputy Geoghegan was present when that election took place. We do not get a statement until now, just before an election, when the Dáil and Seanad cannot discuss it. Senator Johnson said that this ought not to be made a Party question. When I raised this question it was not a Party question at all. I was not in the Fianna Fáil Party then.

Mr. McGilligan

You were a landlord's man.

I was here when I raised it.

Mr. McGilligan

For the landlords.

I raised it quietly. I asked President Cosgrave to give some explanation, but he did not do so. I asked him to put the papers on the Table and he did not do it. I raised the question again and again at a time when I did not belong to any Party. If the Government Party is elected again will the annuities be stopped? Does Senator Johnson suppose that anything can be settled by the present Government Party? Things ought to be done by the Parliament of the country. There is no other way of doing it unless you go out and fight. If Senator Johnson had his way how would this question of the annuities be brought to the point of having anything done? I do not know. We would go on paying the annuities for the next fifteen years. As regards Senator Miss Browne, we can only smile at what she said. The tenants are asked to pay the annuities to the Oireachtas and the British Government have undertaken to pay the money to the bond holders. Who is wronged by it? It is set down in the Act of 1920 that the British Government would pay the interest on the bonds.

Mr. McGilligan

I do not know what it has to do with the argument as to whether the farmers have to pay or not.

The farmers are asked to pay. The question is what about the bond holders? The British Government has undertaken in its own Act of 1920 to pay. The Act may not be in force in Ireland.

It is in force in London

Mr. McGilligan

In relation to certain payments.

The British Government is pledged to pay interest on the bonds. Is that so or is it not?

Mr. McGilligan

Within the limitations of the 1920 Act, and the moneys to which it applies.

I do not know what you are talking about.

Mr. McGilligan

Precisely.

I am not going further except to ask the Seanad to vote that the Government are deserving of censure in this matter in not having brought the arguments before the Oireachtas six years ago. They are asking us now to go into court to prove whether these thirty or forty millions are to be paid over.

Motion put and declared lost.
The Seanad adjourned at 6.10 p.m.,sine die.
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