The manner in which this matter arose, as any Senator might guess, was that the producers alleged certain things against the markets and against the salesmen and so on, and the retailers, wholesalers, salesmen and consumers alleged certain things against the producers. It is very difficult, certainly for me, to adjudicate between them and also, I am afraid, it would be almost impossible for any officer of my Department to do it, because it is a matter in which one is very likely to be prejudiced on one side or the other. There is no doubt, and I think everybody admits, that we can grow very good fruit and very good vegetables in this country. In fact, if we go to any of our fruit or vegetable shows, we will see there displayed fruit and vegetables as attractive in appearance as any that are imported. They are there in half-dozens, well graded and splendid in appearance and much better in flavour than the foreign fruit. We can grow fruit and vegetables, but most fruit and vegetable growers complain that they cannot make it pay. Most consumers complain that they are paying too much for their fruit and vegetables. I had some small experience myself, and I am sure that others here who live near the City of Dublin have had the same experience, of bringing vegetables into the Dublin market and selling them for about 10 per cent. of what the consumer pays afterwards and no more. There must be something wrong there. It may be as the wholesalers, the salesmasters, and the retailers hold, that they must have a very big margin of profit in order to cover their losses, to cover waste and a certain amount of the vegetables and fruit that go bad. Probably, they must have a very big percentage, but it is hard to believe that they must have 90 per cent. and that the grower is to get only 10 per cent.
These are matters that could be inquired into by the tribunal. We are asking this tribunal, first of all, to get evidence and to report on whether they think it is true that our fruit and vegetables are not graded properly and not packed properly and—the marking, of course, includes other things—whether they are marked according to sample or not. It is alleged, for instance, that sometimes one gets a barrel of Irish apples and the top of the barrel is very good, but as you go down, the apples are not so good. I do not know if these allegations are true but the tribunal could report on that. The tribunal could also inquire into whether our marketing facilities are adequate and sufficient to deal with the fruit and vegetables that come along. Under (c), the suggestion, I take it, is that if it is proved to the tribunal that the present marketing facilities, say, in the City of Dublin are not good and that it would be much better to have a system such as that in the City of Limerick, which has been mentioned by Senator Brown. The tribunal would be quite free to report in that way and to say that, in their opinion, marketing facilities ought to be provided in all the cities on the same lines as those in Limerick.
Paragraph (d) is plain and scarcely requires any explanation. It is alleged, for instance, that foreign tomatoes are sometimes sold as Irish. That, of course, can be dealt with under existing legislation, but it is no great burden to put on the tribunal to ask them to inquire into this matter also, as they will be dealing with fruit and vegetables, of whether there is an abuse or grave abuse in that direction. If so, they might, perhaps, suggest a remedy. The tribunal will be set up under the Tribunal of Evidence Act of 1921. It is different from a commission. It will have very great powers, as was explained by Senator Brown, and can compel a witness to give evidence and to produce documents and, in fact, have a person committed for contempt of court if that evidence or that production of documents is refused. No doubt, this tribunal would have very great powers, but I think that in a case like this, where you want, I believe, more the judicial mind than the expert mind, a tribunal is more suitable than a commission and it was on that account that this form of inquiry was selected.
We have had, at least, two tribunals under this Act already. One of them inquired into the maize-meal mixture in, I think, 1931, and rejected the proposals at that time to have home-grown grain mixed with maize-meal. Again, a tribunal was set up under this Act to inquire into the bacon and pig trade. They issued a certain report on which a Bill is being prepared and will, I hope, be ready for circulation within the next three weeks or so. In both those cases, the members of the Tariff Commission were asked to act on the tribunal and the same procedure will be adopted this time. I have no reason to doubt that they will act this time also, and, if they do, the chairman who acted on both previous occasions will be chairman this time. I think Senators need not have any apprehension about witnesses being pursued unnecessarily with regard to evidence or asked to disclose information that it would not perhaps be fair to ask a witness to disclose, but may rest assured that he will go as far as is necessary for the purpose of the inquiry.
I agree with Senator Bagwell that this is a case for a judicial tribunal and that any expert knowledge that is required should be tendered in the form of evidence. There will, of course, be at the disposal of this tribunal any expert evidence they may wish to call from the horticultural inspectors of the Department and, I am quite sure, the horticultural experts attached to the universities will give any evidence required of them. There was some doubt expressed here by Senator Brown as to whether it would be possible to get evidence from the other interests—the growers. There is in this country a fruit growers' association. But it does not by any means include all the fruit growers of the country but they are, at any rate, active, and they have assured me that so far as they are concerned, they will give all the help they possibly can in the way of submitting evidence on behalf of the growers and that they will make the allegations, to which I have already referred, to the tribunal which they have often made to me, that they are not treated fairly and try to prove their case as best they can. I have no doubt that the salesmen, wholesalers and retailers will come forward to rebut that evidence and the Tribunal will then be in a position to judge for itself.
There are not, it is true, very many fruit growers in this country, who live entirely by fruit growing, but there are a few, apart from those farms which have been mentioned and which are connected with jam factories. There are a few I know personally who have no other business but fruit growing and they will naturally be very interested in this inquiry and will take the opportunity of producing the best evidence they possibly can. Some Senators appear to be somewhat afraid of paragraph (e) (i) with regard to grading, packing and marking. The terms of reference only ask the tribunal to report on the steps, if any, which should be taken. It is quite possible that the tribunal may report that it is inadvisable to require producers to do this and I think it is very probable that if they do require producers to grade, pack and mark, they will make exceptions. They will scarcely compel every single person who goes in for the marketing of cabbage to grade, pack and mark that cabbage. They may require it for a city like Dublin or they may not, but I think they will make exceptions and will not bring in any sweeping recommendation.
