I do not think it is necessary to go into any great detail concerning this Bill. It is supplementary to the Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1932, and is the fifth measure of the kind introduced since 1932, extending for another year the time for the completion of new houses by private persons and public utility societies in rural areas and the reconstruction of existing houses by small farmers and agricultural labourers. It also extends for a like period the provisions of the Act of 1932 in respect of the acquisition of houses by municipal authorities, with the aid of a grant under that Act, and the improvement and enlargement of such houses by municipal authorities and philanthropic societies. The Bill merely extends for another year the provisions of the Act passed last year.
Housing (Amendment) Bill, 1940—Second Stage.
I understand that a sum of something like £200,000 remains unspent under the Housing Act of last year and I should like to know how this has arisen because I have had complaints in several areas in my own part of the country from people who built houses, got them certified as satisfactory and who are still awaiting payment of the grant. I submit that in the rural areas farmers, a great many of whom require money for various purposes at present, who are entitled to grants should get them as soon as possible. I raise the matter because it is important for the people concerned. There are other matters which I should like to mention, but which I assume I could not introduce on this Bill. There is, for instance, the question of the purchase of houses by middle-class people under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act. I should like to know if there is any possibility of money being made available under that Act for this purpose.
I support the Bill, and I remind the Minister of a suggestion I put up when a similar Bill was discussed last year in connection with giving some encouragement to the use of thatch in the roofing of houses. I believe that the war has made the atmosphere for thatch more favourable, but even if the war had never developed to the stage to which it has developed, I believe a good argument could be put up for thatched houses. Particularly on Land Commission schemes, I think it would be most desirable if some small encouragement were given to people who build thatched houses as against houses roofed with slate or other largely foreign materials. As I pointed out before, the provision of roofing timber will become a difficult matter from now on. It is difficult at present, and will become more difficult every day, and if thatch were used in rural areas—I am not suggesting that it should be used in towns or cities—it would eliminate the difficulty of importing huge quantities of timber.
In the same way in regard to reconstruction, I understand that, in isolated cases, people have already obtained reconstruction grants for the roofing of houses with thatch, but what I should like to see is a bigger grant being made available in respect of thatched houses than would be made for houses with roofs of any other description. I think it would encourage the tillage policy of the Government and provide a market for much of the material which, with the increased tillage, will be largely going to waste. We all know that there are several districts in the country where wheaten straw cannot be obtained and where wheat cannot be grown. I believe that is the case in several parts of the Minister's constituency, but it is a very simple matter to convey the wheaten straw from one part of the country to another and to create a market for the produce of Irish agriculture, rather than to continue to import materials from abroad, when, as everybody can see, it will be only a matter of a very few months when we will not be able to import any such materials.
Ba mhaith liom mo ghuth do chur leis an tairisgint sin, go mba cheart níos mó usáid do bhaint as an tuighe. Is dóich liom go ndéanann an ceann-tuighe na tithe níos compóirtighe ná na sclátaí mar bionn siad níos teó agus níos deise. Níl aon deacracht leis an tuighe agus ní gá cochan cruithneachta bheith acu, mar, san áit 'na raibh mé im' chomhnuí fá'n dtuaith, bhí tithe ceann-tuighe againn agus ní raibh aon chruithneacht san áit sin. Deineann cochan eornan, cochan coirce agus cochan luachra lín tuighe mhaith le h-aghaidh tighe agus dá mbaintí usáid as an tuighe sin, d'fhéadfaí tithe do chur suas níos saoire ar an slí sin.
Rachaidh mé níos fuide ná an Seanadóir O Cuirc. 'Sé mo bharúil go mba cheart usáid do bhaint de fá scéimeanna an Rialtais féin. Má chuireann an Rialtas tithe suas fán dtuaith, ba cheart dóibh, agus beidh sé níos saoire dóibh, na tithe do chur suas fá cheann-tuighe. Tá dúil agam go gcuimhneochaidh an tAire air sin agus go gcuirfidh sé i bhfeim é, mar tá studéar déanta ag mac liom ar an gceist seo agus taisbeánann sé in aiste a bhí í míosacháin anuraidh go bhfuil sé níos fearr tithe do bheith fá thuighe ná bheith ag dul i gcomhnaí do na slínte. Molaim go mor an tairisgint a chuir an Seanadóir O Cuirc os ar gcóir.
I wish to support the remarks of Senator Quirke and Senator MacFhionnlaoich because it is a matter which has come to my notice also, particularly in the case of reconstruction where an addition has been built and a certain class of roofing material, slate or asbestos, used. When an additional room is added to a thatched house and the roof covered with either slate or asbestos, I think it looks the most ridiculous thing in the world. I think it looks most ridiculous. In one particular case I have in mind, I am aware that the grant a man was about to receive was either curtailed or wholly disallowed because he did not use asbestos or slate, but used thatch. He used a good quality, too, and went to great expense to buy it. If he covered an odd room at the end of the house with asbestos and the balance of the house with thatch, I think everybody would say it would look ridiculous. In reconstruction jobs, I hope it will be agreed in some form that the quality of covering used will correspond with the balance of the house, whether it be slate or thatch. That seems to be a very reasonable proposition, and I hope that the Minister will see his way to recoup those who have made losses in the way I have mentioned. I have heard that there was some misunderstanding as to the amount of the grant which each applicant would get. Several came to me and said they had been told by the inspector they would get a grant of £40, but eventually almost every one got £30. If they were only to get £30, they should have been told so and not left under a misapprehension.
I am surprised at the mentality of the speakers on the opposite side. They are going to take us back to the year of the Flood by talking about thatched houses. Senator Quirke speaks about the scarcity of timber, as if no timber were required to roof a thatched house. In my opinion, it will take as much timber to roof a thatched house as to roof a slated or tiled one. There is talk about the expense. Every thatched house put up has to be thatched about once every two or three years. Imagine the expense of that. There is nothing which will disfigure the countryside so much as a thatched house which is not properly kept. Walk through the countryside and you will see these thatched houses broken, with the rain coming down, unless they are looked after every two or three years. If the Minister considers that the whole wisdom is not on the Government side of the House, he will refuse absolutely to give any grant for the putting up of thatched houses.
There may be something in Senator Honan's point about reconstruction. If the thatched house is being reconstructed, it would be well if the reconstruction were performed so that the whole house were either thatched, slated or tiled. The proposal to build new thatched houses for the sake of using straw is a very silly one and the Minister should definitely put his foot down and not give any grant for such a house. The question of expense should be taken into account and also the question of the appearance of the house after two or three years, if it is not looked after properly. I have been in places throughout the country where there were several fairly useful thatched houses and where people are covering them now either with corrugated iron or tiles of some description, in order to save the expense of thatch.
I rise to support Senator Quirke in most of what he said. I am sorry to differ with Senator Counihan, but I do so violently when he speaks about the picture of the countryside, as I feel sure that none of our advanced artists can paint a picture more pleasing than that of the yellow roof and whitewashed walls.
And leaking roofs.
With regard to timber, in the case of the thatched houses there can be a board here and there. With regard to the question of slates, I would be the last to offend the present Minister in any way, but only on Sunday last I was discussing with a ratepayer the mental hospital which we have in Ardee. It is "weeping" at present and I was told they were surprised there that they were allowed to cover it with Fianna Fáil slates. I was asked why it had not been covered with thatch. I have had the same experience which Senator Honan and others have remarked, that the grants are curtailed. In fact they have been curtailed deliberately if the roof was to be covered with thatch. I have an old wish for the thatched roof. I was born under one and I am no more unhealthy-looking than Senator Counihan. If we build a good solid wall, our inspectors should not be debarred from giving us a grant, even if the roof is of thatch. If we have to repair it every few years, surely we have passed the stage when we cannot grow an acre of wheat. I was surprised when Senator Quirke said that the Minister's constituency will not grow wheat.
I said parts of it.
Well, parts of it. I feared he was going to say it could not. There was a more serious position in which I found myself a few years ago, and it was through that that the kindly words of Senator Quirke found a response in my heart just now. I went forward with a friend to the Agricultural Credit Corporation some years ago. He had a decent house with four rooms and wanted a loan. I do not know if Senator Quirke is a member of the Agricultural Credit Corporation now, but he certainly was then.
That matter would not be quite in order.
The corporation actually turned the loan down then because the roof of the house was thatched.
I should like to support Senator Quirke and think it is time we took stock of the whole position, especially with regard to those living on the borders of the Bog of Allen. I have in mind one case in County Kildare where there are 50 or 60 families living on the edge of a bog. The residents have made history in the competition launched by the Turf Development Board, yet they are living in miserable houses on the edge of a bog. To secure cottages they have, in some cases, to go a mile away from the source of their wealth. They can make a good living by selling turf on the Curragh and even as far away as the City of Dublin. They are deprived of grants and have to live in a most miserable condition in this one parish I have in mind, not 20 miles from the edge of the Curragh. Special attention should be given to districts of that kind. Even if it were necessary to build these houses on piles—and there is plenty of material available to build them on piles—the people should not be removed a distance of two or three miles from the places where they save the turf and build their turf-stacks. They will not leave the district, as they have been living there from time immemorial. They are very healthy families—fine specimens of manhood and womanhood—types not afraid to work, either men or women. It is a treat to see how those women can set themselves to the manipulation and saving of turf in these areas. They are happy in their lot and the one drawback is the miserable conditions under which they have to live and which, under the present Act, it seems to be impossible to remedy.
Senator Quirke's suggestion should be further considered and special provision should be made to provide decent houses for them and special plans should be submitted to the Department of Local Government and Public Health to meet the requirements of these people. In many cases, they will give great assistance themselves in putting up these houses. In fact, some of them are so skilful in the art of building that I have no doubt, whatever, that they would put up better houses themselves than some of the houses which have been put up and slated—or covered with what I have heard described as "Fianna Fáil slates".
Certain speakers have referred to red tiles, but I think there is too much of the red tile business in housing throughout the country, seeing that there are miles of slate quarries available. There is a 60-mile region in the vicinity of Sheep's Head near the town of Bantry, and there are other districts in Donegal and in the neighbourhood of Killaloe, in which there are abundant supplies of slates and it is a mystery to me why we see so much of the red tile business. These slates are everlasting, but if there is to be any alternative to them, I think it would be better to have a good thatch of rye straw or other material. In bog areas the matter grown on bogs would aid largely in thatching these houses and the houses could be thatched very cheaply. I cannot agree with Senator Counihan that they are inartistic. I think there is nothing more artistic and pleasing to the eye than a well-thatched house. The Senator seemed to forget that the use of thatch would also confer a benefit on the farmers since it would create a demand for straw. I should like to impress on the Minister that special consideration should be given to those people who live on bogs and who will not leave these areas. They may be said to live under insanitary conditions but they are not unhealthy conditions because one can see at a glance that these are not unhealthy people. Tuberculosis is almost unknown in these districts. I suppose it is by reason of the fact that there is plenty of ventilation through the doors and windows. It would be worth while to inquire into housing conditions in these areas. I can point out one example of the finest type of people in the midlands who are living under insanitary conditions because none of the Acts seem to help them. I submit that the thatched roof should be considered in connection with housing and that inquiries should be made into the conditions under which people living on the edge of the bogs manage to obtain shelter for themselves.
The Senator who has just spoken seemed to have a mandate from the turf cutters. I also want to say something about turf which, especially during the war years, is likely to play a much larger part in our domestic and national economy. Those who planned the new houses with which I am familiar do not seem to have taken into consideration the sort of fireplace or the sort of cooking arrangements in which turf could be utilised. That is extremely unfortunate. I think a good deal of research has been devoted to new types of grates and stoves for turf burning, and in all housing schemes particular attention should be paid to that. In Galway we had a most unfortunate experience. The Claddagh houses were knocked down and new ones were erected. No woman, of course, was consulted in the planning of these houses, and the men responsible seemed to know very little about the domestic arrangements suitable for such houses. They put in ranges that were out of date. They would hardly burn coal at all, and they were certainly not adapted to turf. I think it would be much better to have the open hearth fire in houses of that type. At least the people would know how to cook on them. I believe myself that as turf is likely to play a very important part in our domestic and in our national economy in future years, in all housing schemes the necessity for providing the proper kind of stoves and grates should be taken into consideration.
Looking over the last few years I think we can congratulate ourselves on the advantage which the public took of the very generous help given by the Government towards housing, particularly when we remember that that generosity was especially useful because building materials were at a very low price. That meant that the Government assistance afforded a double advantage to the public. We have now reached a stage, however, when a Bill of this sort might become completely useless, because not alone is there a shortage of building materials, but the cost of them has considerably increased. Housing operations in the rural areas, as far as I can see, have become almost completely stagnant. I do not know how long that phase will last, but it would appear that the public are not likely to avail of these grants while present conditions last. Of course, if they intend to build at any time inside the next four or five years they will be unable to do so at a smaller cost than they can to-day. Perhaps after they get used to the prices now prevailing, they may get a little more courage and start to build during the present year. I do know that the grants now prevailing will not give them that encouragement to continue building operations. If that is true to any great extent, we are simply wasting time in passing housing legislation. However, I have no doubt that public bodies will carry on a certain amount of building. There is no reason why they should not do so.
As to the point raised by Senator Quirke, there is a possibility that if his suggestion were adopted and if thatched houses were made eligible for the grant, overhead costs might be substantially reduced and that the grant would be just as great encouragement to undertake building operations in rural areas as it has been in the past. I personally do not like thatched houses. I think the Paul Henry outlook on thatched houses is a stupid one. Personally, I should not like to live in a thatched house, and I am not sorry to see that in the West of Ireland people are leaving such houses. I heard some people over the week-end down in Achill saying in tones of regret: "Oh, the thatched houses have disappeared. It is a great pity; they were so artistic." That is a lot of tommy rot. I think Achill Island looks ever so much better since the people got rid of these old houses. The new houses are much more healthy and much cleaner. The people living in them appear to be much more comfortable and have a much brighter outlook on life. Still, to meet a temporary emergency I put the point made by Senator Quirke to the Minister for his consideration. It might afford some encouragement to continue building operations in the rural areas as distinct from the towns. As a temporary expedient, it would certainly give encouragement to continue the building of houses in the rural areas if people were allowed to roof them with straw thatch. What is more important than anything else is that it will certainly reduce the cost of erection of the buildings.
I gather that the Bill before us is called a Housing Bill. Senator McEllin explained to us that it is called a Housing Bill because no housing will be affected by it. I am inclined to agree to it because personally I thought that when the Bill came up it did not matter "tuppence," but it seems to me that a very important question has been raised, and I hope the Minister will lay down a very comprehensive doctrine as to which type of house is more delightful to the eye—that covered with thatch or with slates. I think it would be well if he would say the last word on the subject. In these æsthetic matters, one can argue for ever and never get anywhere, but, speaking as a mere Philistine, I would like to suggest that if he comes down in favour of thatch on æsthetic grounds, he will require to take certain steps with the insurance companies. In a most vulgar way, they insist on charging higher premiums for houses covered with thatch, so that if he, as the arbiter of æsthetic matters, is going to decide for thatch, I hope he will take extensive powers to insist that the insurance companies will no longer stand between us and the attainment of that beauty we so long for.
On a point of personal explanation, I might suggest that what I had visualised was not what some Senators seem to have in mind. Senator Counihan stated that thatched houses would have to be thatched every two or three years. My experience is that a well-thatched house with wheaten straw and reeds will last ten or 12, or even 15 years. As regards Senator McEllin's statement that he hated thatched houses, he had probably in mind those mud-walled houses thatched with rushes or something like that. We all despise that type of house, and what I want to make clear is that you can have a decent well-built house covered neatly with thatch.
Is fíor é.
Mr. Counihan rose.
I am afraid you cannot speak a second time, Senator; this is the Second Reading.
I thought it was the Committee Stage. The only thing I was going to say was——
The Senator can say it on a later Stage.
I think the time has come for the Minister to clarify this question.
Senator Conlon raised a question in connection with delays in the payment of those grants. There has been some delay in the payment of grants and this Bill should have been brought in earlier. There was a hold-up between March 31st until the Bill got a Second Reading. Since then we have been expediting the issue of those grants as much as we can. There may have been delays, but these were possibly due to delays in inspection or to defects found by the inspectors in the course of their examination of the houses.
Mention has been made of the Small Dwellings Act. That Act applies more to the Dublin City area than any place else, and I think that from the year 1930 down to early in 1938 there was something like £1,000,000 issued by the Dublin Corporation from borrowed moneys to make provision under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Acts. The Dublin Corporation are concentrating now on getting whatever moneys they can for the clearance of slums and, owing to that, they are not able to borrow for the purpose of the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act.
Senator Honan referred to the cutting down of grants. What probably happened in those cases is that there has not been very much reconstruction of the houses or only small reconstructions. You cannot get a grant if you only repair a roof on a house; you get a grant if you enlarge it or add a room, or make similar improvements. If there has been a cutting down you will find some special circumstances have arisen in the particular cases.
Senator Mrs. Concannon mentioned houses where the fireplaces have not been suitable for burning turf. So far as I know, in areas where turf is available, provision is made for the putting in of suitable fireplaces. The trouble may be due to the people themselves failing to select proper fireplaces for turf and it is very extraordinary that in Galway where plenty of turf is available unsuitable fireplaces should have been installed. The reason may rest with the local people or the inspector or because of some agreement arrived at between them. In the case of the only scheme I have opened since I came into the Department, that of the scheme at Birr, the fireplaces there have been made suitable for burning turf and, so far as I am concerned, I will see that where turf is available we will take the necessary steps to see that fireplaces suitable for turf are provided, so far as we can control the question. I do not want to get into this matter about thatch.
I can assure the Minister that it is quite non-Party.
I know that it is.
Perhaps the Minister could take a detached view of it.
Cú Uladh took the line that it was more healthy and somebody else urged that it was not, but, between them, I am not in a position to judge. Whatever knowledge I have of thatched roofs I gained when I was young and I formed the impression that thatching was a very expert job in those days and I think that there are very few expert thatchers left. The thatching you would get at the time I am thinking of, 20 or 25 years ago, was done by a small number of men through the country, expert in that particular work, and, as we all know, it was a very neat job when they completed it. They got special straw well-thrashed so that you would not see a spray on the roof and the job had to be turned out in a neat way. Even if you had the experts available now—I believe most of them have died out——
We could import some from other countries.
I know. I am only putting up the suggestion that they have died out from one point of view. A number of people have got grants for the roofing of their houses and those houses belonged to people of limited means. If they put on a roof of thatch it might not last sufficiently long and they would have to go to the expense of replenishing it by repairing the roof again in a short period of time. That is one of the objections, but we may find ourselves in this country with certain materials very limited and, perhaps, it may be necessary or advisable to change over and avail ourselves of the materials that are at our hand instead of looking for materials unprocurable owing to the world situation or something like that. This Bill does not exclude thatch. The position at present is that an inspector has to approve of the materials and there is nothing, so far as the law stands, to exclude the use of thatch but when I say that, I am not saying that the Department might approve of it without examination or without having the matter looked into. I did not know whether or not this matter might be raised, but I am willing to look into it for whatever it is worth with a view to seeing whether there is anything that could be availed of in that connection or not.
I think the Minister might take into consideration the question of a well-made house, where there is an additional room or rooms added to the house, and whether that might be a question of a thatched roof or not. I am referring to a well-done job.
Question agreed to.
When is it proposed to take the Committee Stage?
There was no amendment in the Dáil, Sir, and, if there is no amendment in this House either, perhaps we could take the Committee Stage now.
Agreed to take the Committee Stage now.