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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 Jul 1941

Vol. 25 No. 21

Neutrality (War Damage to Property) Bill, 1941—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be read a Second Time."

Senators, I am sure, are already aware from the reports of the proceedings in the Dáil of the reasons underlying the various matters provided for in this Bill which, as I explained to the Dáil, is more or less modelled on the provisions of the Damage to Property (Compensation) Acts, 1923 to 1933. It is, therefore, scarcely necessary for me to describe its features in detail. I will, however, touch upon the more important ones.

The Bill in general makes provision for implementing the Government's undertaking that irrespective of whether or not efforts to get compensation from the foreign Government responsible were successful, compensation would be granted for damage caused by the dropping of bombs by foreign aircraft and kindred incidents, except that it does not cover compensation for death and personal injuries. Such compensation will be dealt with in a scheme to be made pursuant to an Order made under the Emergency Powers Act, 1939. The scheme is being prepared and should be ready soon.

The 1923 and 1933 Acts required all applications for compensation to be made to the court. The present Bill embodies a modification of this procedure. Under it every application must be submitted, in the first instance, to the Minister for Finance, who is empowered to consider it and make an offer of compensation to the applicant or inform him that he does not intend making any offer, whereupon the applicant may present his case for compensation to the Circuit Court. The idea of this is that many claims, particularly straightforward ones and those of small amount, could, we feel, be disposed of departmentally with greater speed and economy than if they had to wait for adjudication by the court.

The Bill provides for compensation for all direct damage to or loss of property except—on the analogy of the Damage to Property (Compensation) Act, 1923—such personal effects as watches and jewellery not forming part of the owner's stock-in-trade, coins, currency, stamps, postal orders and so forth and, in the case of local authorities, damage to streets, roads, bridges, water-pipes, sewers and kindred items maintained by them; the idea as regards the latter is that local authorities themselves should be able, with their own labour and materials, to make good any such damage without being much out of pocket.

Consequential loss was completely excluded under the Bill as introduced but, in response to representations made in the Dáil, I agreed to modify the original provisions in this regard so as to permit some compensation to be paid in respect of a limited category of such losses, namely, out-of-pocket expenditure incurred on the provision of alternative housing accommodation or on the removal or storage of furniture or household effects or other movable articles, such as shop goods. The amount of such compensation that may be granted in an individual case is limited to £50, as will be seen from Section 10 (2). I had £30 in mind at first, but was induced to go to the higher figure.

Compensation for injuries to buildings will be conditional on reinstatement; the object of this is to prevent owners of damaged buildings from leaving them derelict, forming eyesores in the street or landscape. The basis of the compensation will be the cost of complying with the reinstatement condition less the amount, if any, by which the value of the building as reinstated would, because of reinstatement, exceed its value immediately before the damage took place. Power is taken in the Bill to compromise with claimants who have been awarded compensation by the court and find it impracticable to comply with the reinstatement condition.

To meet the wishes of the Dublin city manager and town clerk, it was agreed, when the Bill was in the Dáil, to incorporate in it provisions enabling a town-planning authority to acquire damaged property. These provisions will be found in Section 20 and the Schedule. They provide local authorities with a ready and expeditious method of acquiring damaged property for town planning, etc., purposes. The local authority in such cases will deal directly with the owners of the property in the matter of compensation and no compensation will be payable by the Minister to the owners under the Bill; the Government will recoup to the local authority the difference between the value of the property before and after the injury, in other words, the amount of the damage to the building. In the event of dispute, the amount will fall to be determined in the ordinary way under the Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act, 1919.

The Bill provides for a contribution by local authorities on a national basis of 25 per cent. of the total compensation paid in each financial year, subject to a maximum contribution equivalent to the proceeds of a rate of 6d. in the £. This more or less follows a corresponding provision in the Act of 1923 and is, I think, preferable to the alternative of a contribution only from the particular local authority in whose functional area damage to property occurs.

In anticipation of certain provisions in the Bill, local authorities were given authority to carry out repairs to damaged dwelling-houses sufficient to make them habitable, to provide temporary accommodation for people left homeless, and to make cash advances for the purchase of furniture and clothing; the Bill enables the local authorities to be recouped out of voted moneys the expenditure incurred. Money expended by a local authority on repairs, etc., is not to be taken into account by the court in assessing compensation, but there is authority to deduct the amount of such expenditure from the compensation when it is being paid.

Any compensation recovered from an external Government will be paid into or disposed of for the benefit of the Exchequer, but should the amount in any case prove greater than what was awarded under the Act, the excess may be distributed among the parties concerned. This matter is covered by Section 15 of the Bill. Senators will appreciate that I can give no indication at this stage as to what extent we shall succeed in recovering compensation from abroad.

In conclusion, it is not yet possible, as I informed the Dáil, to give any reliable estimate of what the total cost of the measure will be to the Exchequer, but from such particulars as are already available, it is clear that it will be considerable, and will increase substantially the already heavy burden of expenditure which the country has to bear. Considering the financial difficulties we are faced with at the moment, I am sure Senators will agree that the measure of compensation provided for in the Bill is fair and reasonable and merits their approval.

I do not know whether any Senators who have any conception of the damage that has been done, and for which this Bill purports to make compensation, will regard the provision made as fair and reasonable. I certainly think the two words I would never apply to the Bill are those words "fair" and "reasonable". The Bill is introduced after almost two years of war and it is introduced nearly a year after the date mentioned in the title of the Bill— 26th August, 1940—when a creamery in Campile, County Wexford, was destroyed by German aircraft, as was afterwards admitted. The Bill is introduced a year after that particular happening and nearly seven months after the bombing that took place in Dublin—that was in January last.

The matter of compensation for damage to property by hostile aircraft or aircraft of any kind was raised before. The question of insurance was raised, as was also the question of compensation by the State, by the taxpayers generally. Various suggestions were made that a good Bill should be introduced. Even in the case of the North Strand bombing it has taken a considerable time to have a Bill prepared. Although there has been so much talk about it, and although there have been happenings in many other places, one would think that a Bill could have been produced quite a long time ago.

One of the amazing things about the present Ministers is the unction and certainty with which they invoke the action of their predecessors. There used to be a time when nothing that the Cumann na nGaedheal Government did could possibly be right. There was not a cross-roads that people like my friend, Senator Quirke, did not go to and shout and bellow about the delinquencies, the crookedness and the general rottenness of the Cumann na nGaedheal Government. Now, when Ministers are introducing Bills they can find no argument more cogent and never seem to be more sincere than when they say: "This is what the Cumann na nGaedheal Government did"—in what they suppose to be analogous circumstances—"and after all, boys, surely it must be right". As was pointed out in the Dáil, there is no analogy at all between the circumstances in which the 1923 Act was passed, to pay compensation arising out of the civil war, and the present circumstances. In the former case there was a huge bill actually incurred. It was thought at the time the 1923 Act was passed that the bill would be bigger than it actually turned out to be. We had to bear the loss ourselves. The damage was widespread and was inflicted by our own citizens. There is no analogy whatever, I think, between the two cases. It is extraordinary that we should have the Minister talking in such a glib way about his predecessor in office on certain matters where he wants to economise, whereas, in a great many other matters, he does not imitate his predecessor at all, or economise.

I think it might be said that on every sector of the spending front the Minister has outdistanced his predecessors, and has gone ahead of them as if he were proud of it. He told us that, as Minister for Finance, there is nothing in the world he is so proud of as what the Government have done in the way of spending money, but when it comes to compensating people for action over which they had no control whatever, and over which the Irish people had no control, he adopts a more penurious attitude than that embodied in the 1923 Act. That Act was amended twice. The awards to be made under it were increased, I think, by 10 per cent.

This Bill proposes to make the local authority bear 25 per cent. of the cost up to a maximum of 6d. in the £ on the rates. There, again, there is no analogy. The damage done in the civil war period, for which the 1923 Act made provision, was widespread. There were 3,000 bridges broken. Their rebuilding brought a certain amount of money and of employment into the areas concerned which helped to spread the cost. After all, the local taxpayer and the central taxpayer are in the end one and the same thing. That, perhaps, may be a point actually in favour of the Minister. In the case of the people that we saw in Donore Avenue and in the North Strand, as well as the people in Wexford, Carlow and other places, surely no citizen of this country could think that they had any share of guilt in the matter, and, therefore, the least we should do is to compensate them as liberally as we possibly can.

This Bill was improved in the Dáil in some respects. The Minister mentioned one change in it compared to the provision in the 1923 Act. Under this Bill claims will, in the first instance, have to be submitted to the Department of Finance. I hardly could believe my ears when I heard the Minister say that that would lead to greater speed in settling claims. How anybody who has been a member of the Dáil for some years and has had some experience of the Department of Finance could think that the Minister would have the——

Hardihood.

Senator Baxter suggests the word "hardihood"—to say that I do not know. I was going to say "effrontery," but I hesitated as the farthest thing from my mind is to be offensive. But, speaking from many years' experience of the Department of Finance, how anybody could say that giving the settlement of the claims to the Department of Finance is going to lead to greater speed baffles me, because there is nothing in the whole wide earthly world as slow as the Department of Finance when they are giving out money. Of course, they are not quite so slow in looking for money from you, but I suppose it is inevitable and part of their job that they should be slow in parting with public money. I was really astonished when I heard the Minister say that there is going to be greater speed in settling claims since they will have to be submitted to the Department of Finance in the first instance.

There is a characteristic provision in the Bill which says that if a person does not make a claim within one year the claim lapses, but as a matter of fact, one may make a claim in 1941 and not get a reply, or an offer, for five years. Nothing happens in that case. There is no provision in the Bill to say that an offer must be made by the Minister for Finance within some limited period. I think that a provision to that effect should be inserted in the Bill. In the case of consequential damage, one wonders how the Minister selected the original figure of £30, or how he arrived at his present maximum of £50. The figure may have been arrived at in this way, that someone in the Department, with a sheet of blank paper in front of him, started to play a game of fox-and-geese, putting down £30 in one corner and crossing it out, and £50 in another corner. It is hard to know how the figure was arrived at, but surely, with the machinery available here and with complete power either in the Minister or in the courts, it should be possible to ascertain what reasonable consequential damage is, and to fix a limit higher than £50. People had to move from houses which were destroyed or damaged, and had to find alternative accommodation which, in certain ways, may be very expensive. Since those people are in no sense sinners one would think that they should get more generous consideration. I do not think £50 is a fair figure. I do not think it is fair either to follow the 1923 Act by providing that there is to be no compensation for the loss of watches or personal jewellery. There is hardly a house in the country in which you will not find a watch with some member of the family. Anyway, the provision here is that if people have lost their watches they are to get no compensation for them. It may be that the reason for that is a practical one, the difficulty of establishing the value of a person's watch—what he paid for it originally, but because that is difficult to establish is no reason, I suggest, why what is an obvious injustice should be done. I do not see why we should approve of the attitude of the Government in this matter, especially when we remember that in every spending department the Government have increased expenditure. The members of the Government have raised their own salaries. They are effectively getting more than their predecessors. They have raised the Dáil allowances and have never hesitated to give salaries to members of boards and various people of their own whom they have promoted or put into position. There is no department of spending where they have not departed from the rules laid down by their predecessors, except this one. I do not think it is either fair or reasonable.

Without at all plundering the public purse, or neglecting any kind of investigation which it might be necessary to carry out in order to prove the bona fides of claims made this Bill which, so to speak, weighs the scales so much against the people who are the innocent victims of bombing, and who in no sense are criminals, either by intent or by accident should not, in my opinion, be passed. It seems extraordinary that in every respect they should be treated as if they were guilty, as people who are appealing for something which is not by right and justice theirs. These people have been damnified through no fault of their own. I do not think any citizen would object to their being reinstated on as generous a scale as could possibly be managed.

There are a number of points that I propose to deal with on the Committee Stage. I gathered from what the Minister said that one of them has been settled, that is, where a person has not the money to proceed with a reinstatement he can compound his claim. That, and other points, can be discussed in Committee. In conclusion, I want to say that I think the Bill is based on a false analogy, and that it does not merit the words "fair and reasonable" which the Minister applied to it.

There were some matters raised by Senator Hayes to-day, with which I agree, but on the other hand I do not hold with his opening statement with regard to the term "fair and reasonable" compared with the provisions of a previous Act dealing with destruction caused during the Civil War, because, if my recollection serves me right, at that time compensation was only paid to one section of the community and anybody who had anything against them got nothing at all. The provisions of this Bill apply to people who, through no fault of their own, had their houses and property destroyed.

Was not compensation paid by this Government to everybody who gave even a meal or a drink of water to anti-Treaty forces? I am glad that this Bill has given me the opportunity of bringing up that matter. Is it not a fact that anybody who gave a meal or a drink, or even a night's lodging, to a member of the anti-Treaty forces got compensation for it, through the Circuit Court?

I do not think so. As far as I am concerned, that is a lie.

Is that a Parliamentary expression. Sir? Is it allowable for the Senator to say that I lie?

The Chair did not hear the word.

Well, if I say that the statement is untrue, would that be satisfactory to the Senator?

It is quite true.

The Senator says that it is true, and I say that it is untrue.

I do not think it is reasonable to expect anybody to believe such a statement as that made by Senator Hayes, to the effect that everybody who gave a meal or a drink to members of the anti-Treaty forces was compensated.

Was there not a special Act passed to compensate people who suffered any loss by giving such aid to members of the anti-Treaty forces?

There is one point which I should like to mention in connection with this Bill, and that is in reference to the section on page 3 of the Bill, which deals with the means by which damage can be caused. I can visualise that, even in peace time, tragedies could be caused, inadvertently, by our own Defence Forces, and, as a matter of fact, I have heard cases of such damage being caused already. It is quite possible that damage to property could be caused by our own Defence Forces, and I think it might be advisable to insert a provision in this Bill to deal with such damage. Another point that occurred to me is covered, probably, by a subsequent section, but I am not sure. What I am referring to is the matter of the cost of the clearing of the debris which resulted from all these bombings in Dublin. Apparently, however, that is covered by a subsequent section where the Minister for Local Government and Public Health can, by order, make an assessment. So I fancy that that matter is adequately dealt with.

Now, Section 18 says that "where a local authority has, under and in accordance with a general or a special authority given by the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, expended money...in relation to or in consequence of an injury to which this Act applies, the following provisions shall apply", and so on. I presume that the words there "in consequence of an injury" would allow the local authority to be recouped for the cost of removing debris and damaged buildings, as has occurred in some of these areas. It is particularly so in the North Strand area—more so than in any of the other areas that have suffered damage.

With regard to this matter of the period, I think that in the Dáil it was changed from three months to 12 months. Senator Hayes mentioned "five years", but I think it is 12 months. That seems to me to be very long. I can picture a person being injured, either in himself or in his property, as a result of a bombing incident, and I think that, normally, he should be fit or able to make his claim or application to the Minister inside six months. The Bill, as it stands now, sets the period at 12 months, and I understand that in the original Bill, before it went to the Dáil, the period was three months. It seems to me that no matter how long you make the period, you will find somebody at the end of it still late, and I think that if the matter is not dealt with within six months there is no great advantage in having it extended to 12 months.

It seems to me to be a hardship that there is no provision in this Bill for compensation for the loss of personal property. I, personally, have known of cases of people whose houses have been destroyed, whose personal property, including money, has been lost. Now, if and when compensation is got from the belligerents concerned, when the war is over, that claim could be legitimately made, just as well as the claims for damage to buildings or property. Under Section 8 these things are excluded, but I do not think that, if the Bill were extended to include items of personal property which are detailed here as being excluded, the amount to be borne by the taxpayers would be excessive. Nobody would have an excess of watches or jewellery, I presume, and I imagine that if things are as gloomy as we heard here to-night, most of these articles of adornment would have been disposed of in the pawnbrokers already. Therefore, I say that the amount would not be excessive, and it is very serious in the case of poor persons who have lost their few pound notes. I believe that there is still enough fairness, truth and justice in the people of this country, and that they would not make excessive claims for such property, and I think that an equitable amount should be paid to them.

Claims for large amounts can easily be examined, but I think that in the case of poor persons who have lost £10 or £20, which was their all, the claims will not be exaggerated, and I think such items should be included in the terms of this Bill and that the exclusion clause should not apply to these poor people. You have such items as coins, legal tender, and other Government notes, bank notes, postage stamps, and postal orders excluded, and that means that the claims of these people for property of such kind, which they may have had in their houses, cannot be admitted. Surely, postage stamps or postal orders would not amount to very much, but these matters are excluded, and yet there is a provision for the fixing of compensation in respect of muniments of title to land or other property, contracts and agreements in writing, debentures, stock and share certificates, and so on. I would ask the Minister to deal sympathetically with this matter, because I feel sure the amount involved will be very small. Please God, we will not have any more such incidents, and I think the amount involved would not be excessive.

Before concluding, I should like to say that I think that all these incidents should be treated on a national basis and that the local authorities should not be asked to pay one-fourth of the cost, which will amount, possibly, to 6d. in the £ on the rates. Senator Baxter, probably, would say that the people in the country should not have to pay for what happened in Dublin, but it is a peculiar thing that the first of these incidents occurred on a mountain side in Carlow and property was damaged on that occasion and people killed. When bombs fall in Dublin, and extensive damage occurs, the local authority is not allowed for any of the damage that occurs to sewers, water mains, and so on, and it still has to contribute 6d. in the £, or one-fourth of the total amount of the aggregate damage to property. I think that is unfair, and that it should be on the general taxpayer, and not on the ratepayer. Somebody has said that they are all one in the end, but I think that the whole cost should be collected from the nation, instead of having one-fourth of the cost falling on the ratepayers. There are some small points on the wording of the sections which can be dealt with in Committee. These are the main points to which I wish to refer on this stage of the Bill.

I gather that the object of the Bill is to provide compensation for damage done by bombs or shells or something of that kind. But it is conceivable that damage might be done by persons propelled or dropped from a foreign aircraft or put ashore from a boat, in which case, I presume, the damage would not come under this Bill; there would be no provision for anything in the nature of sabotage being done. The Bill is called the Neutrality (War Damage to Property) Bill. That, I presume, implies that the damage must be done while a war is going on and we are in a state of neutrality. If persons were propelled or dropped from a foreign aircraft and they were able to establish their position sufficiently to force us into a state of war, any damage done would not come under this Bill. They might do considerable damage, although we might get the better of them and maintain our neutrality. I presume that under this Bill there could be no compensation in circumstances of that kind.

I do not propose to make a speech at this hour of the night, except to remind Senator Hayes of something rather important which he forgot. This question of the raising of Ministers' salaries and Deputies' allowances was discussed rather widely, not alone in Fine Gael circles but in Fianna Fáil circles. I have never heard the question of the raising of Ministers' salaries being discussed without being coupled with the question of the granting of pensions to ex-Ministers. I suggest that Senator Hayes when he dealt with one should have dealt with the other; that he should have explained that this Government provided a system of pensions for ex-Ministers at the request of the members of the former Government.

I never heard that before.

You never heard that before? It is a pity the Senator was not sufficiently in touch to know that.

It is not true.

It is also ridiculous to hear Senator Hayes allow himself to be carried away by his political bitterness to such a pitch as to try to compare the situation which existed after the civil war with the possible situation which may develop in this country before very many moons pass. The fact that 3,000 bridges were blown up in the last war would, in my opinion, seem a very small item if anything of a serious nature should happen in the present circumstances.

I suggest that we should get somewhere near realities, and realise that if we have a small blast or blitz, or whatever you like to call it, the amount of money which would be necessary to cope with that on the lines suggested by Senator Hayes would not alone swamp this generation, but this country for several generations to come. In the event of anything of a serious nature happening, not alone would 3,000 bridges go up in one night, but 3,000 or 6,000 more. Surely we ought to keep somewhere near realities and not allow political bitterness to carry us away to that extent.

This Bill is to compensate for damage which occurs while the State is neutral.

Not while we are engaged in hostilities. Therefore, the damage the Senator alludes to would be damage which would take place if the country were attacked extensively.

Not necessarily.

On the point of political bitterness, may I say that I did not mention the 3,000 bridges for any reason except to point out that the 6d. rate then imposed had reference to damage which was known to be widespread; the 3,000 bridges were introduced to show that it extended all over the country; whereas the damage in this case is in isolated areas? I did not mean—I am sorry if I was so interpreted—to refer to the damage done in the civil war for any purpose, except to illustrate the question of the 6d. rate.

Is this Bill to apply only to damage done by a foreign agency, or is it to apply to damage that might be done to the inhabitants of the country in dealing with such a foreign agency? I take the example that if our defences were firing at foreign aircraft passing over Dublin damage might be done to citizens or property as a result of such defensive action. Would this Bill apply to such damage as that? It seems to me that it would be impossible in a particular case where such damage occurred to differentiate as to the cause of the damage. The fragments of explosives fired by our defences might do damage to property if they came down in the city. It would be very difficult to decide whether that particular damage was done by a foreign agency or by the agency of our own defences. It seems to me that the matter should be considered very carefully before the Committee Stage. I suggest to the Minister that the Long Title of the Bill seems to include such things happening as the result of our own defences.

With regard to the point raised by Senator Rowlette, there is in the present Army Vote and has been in previous Army Votes a sum provided for incidental damages of that kind that might be done by our own Army, and payments have been made for such damage which has been done from time to time by the Army even since the war started. They are ex gratia payments made by the Department of Defence with the approval of the Minister for Finance.

That does not altogether meet the case.

So far as I am aware, it has met satisfactorily any case which has yet come up. I agree with Senator Quirke that Senator Hayes displayed the Party bias for which he is well known in the speech which he delivered on the Bill merely because the Minister referred to the 1923 Act as being a part of the foundation of this Bill. That got his "dander" up immediately. We had very partisan statements from him. We are used to them, but we heard a sample of them to-night. I would not like to follow him in that line, because in recent times discussion has been far away from that bitter, narrow, partisan view which we know Senator Hayes is capable of expressing so adequately. I could do a share of it myself if I felt like it. I have done it, and will do it again if I get provocation to do so.

Do not threaten.

That is not a threat but a promise. I will react in kind if I get some provocation and if I feel in the humour, but I am a bit too tired to-night. I believe the Bill is based on fair principles. I candidly admit that it is not based on over-generous principles, but I think it is based on fair principles. I have visited places in the north and south of the City of Dublin and elsewhere where bombs have fallen. I know the sufferings the people have had to endure. Even where a death has not occurred in a family, I know that no money we could give them would at all adequately compensate those people for what they have suffered.

I do not say that we are going within measurable distance in this Bill of making good to them the sacrifices that they have suffered. A Minister for Finance, in view of his job, has to keep his eye on the locks of the national purse. I repeat what I said in the Dáil —that I try to be just. I cannot afford to be generous. I went on the basis that, in all probability, we would have to pay all ourselves. If we get the compensation which has been promised in certain cases, we will give it to the people. We will not keep in the Exchequer anything that we get, and that the people are entitled to get. We will hand it out. If it comes, as I hope it will, in our way to get adequate compensation for the property and other things that were destroyed it will reach the people.

How can you hope to get compensation for payments which you do not make yourself?

We are making it on the basis of what we can afford, not on what is full compensation for our people. We are making a claim for full and adequate compensation for our people, but we are not paying full and adequate compensation. We have no hope of being able to do that. We will make a proper claim which will be threshed out between representatives of our country and the other countries concerned. I have had no experience of that kind of thing. We have not had any experience of it here. How our claim will be met we do not know. There were a few small cases of injuries done by foreign Powers to property in this country, and so far these modest claims have been adequately met, but I do not know how larger claims will be met.

We have made what we believe to be a just claim for compensation to these people for the awful damage that some of them and their property have suffered, but we are not paying what I would regard as adequate compensation. We have to consider the national purse and pay what we think we can afford. That is as far as I can go, and it is on that basis the Bill has been drafted. It has been drafted also on the analogy of former Bills. We were taunted with using a precedent. All law is built on precedent. All law looks for former cases and former decisions. We have on our Statute Book several Acts dealing with the question of compensation. The basis has been laid down and the law in this country is just as liable to look for precedents as in any other country. It may be unfortunate, in the view of Senator Hayes, that we had to go to the former Government here for a precedent. Probably, if we had gone somewhere else we might have been more generous. We might have been better advised, but we have that precedent. I read through the debates on the 1922 Act and the amending Acts, and I suppose that some of the things Senator Hayes has attacked with such vigour were things that were defended most heroically by his former leader as being just and proper things to defend at that time. Of course Senator Hayes has changed his position since and does not see it from the same angle now.

I did not see it then.

Senator Hayes voted for that Bill.

No, the Minister forgets that I had no vote.

I know that, but the Senator was counted amongst those who took responsibility, but he ran away from it now.

I had no responsibility.

I am in possession.

The Minister has no right to mis-state facts.

As to what we have done in various ways, what he threw at us was, I think, unjust, as the Senator benefited and well benefited too.

So has the Minister benefited.

Yes, and so has the Senator, and generously. He might have told us that, too.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, August 6th.
The Seanad adjourned at 10.45 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, July 31st.
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