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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 10 Dec 1941

Vol. 26 No. 3

Pier and Harbour Provisional Order Confirmation Bill, 1941. - Petrol Rationing Regulations—Motion.

I move:—

That the Seanad is of opinion that the regulations in regard to petrol rationing should be more strictly enforced and that distribution should be restricted as far as possible to the requirements of essential services.

At the outset, I should like to give the House one or two figures which may be of value in getting a clear understanding of the position of motor traffic in this country and the supplies we have available. A good many Senators will probably know that there are three figures of importance. The first one is that up to the end of last year, 1940, our income from motor taxation was £915,000, a very considerable part of our revenue. It had fallen to that figure from something over £1,000,000 previously. Motor vehicles at the end of 1939, which is the latest date for which I have got definite figures, were divided as between private cars, 52,000; commercial vehicles, 10,000 odd, and tractors, 1,200. I understand that the number of private cars has fallen very considerably since, and that the number of commercial vehicles and of buses has increased. The number of tractors has also gone up. The third point is that we have been promised a total quantity of 20,000,000 gallons of petrol per annum, but in actual fact the whole of that quantity of petrol has not reached this country for the past year.

I put down this motion because I feel that we have for the past year not only been condoning some very flagrant breaches of the law but we have been wasting a commodity, the enormous importance of which to the whole of our industrial and economic life, we do not yet seem to have sufficiently grasped. We have got no emergency reserve. We are living by the assistance of our neighbours, hand to mouth, and we are living with the assistance of people who themselves are rationed and who have very important preoccupations, preoccupations which appear to be getting daily more serious. Before I put down this motion I read the report of the debate in the Dáil very carefully. The motion proposed there asked for a commission. I have approached the matter on rather different lines. I agree with the Minister's outlook as indicated in his reply to that debate, but I felt that discussion here might be also useful. I felt that when I put down the motion and I have been immensely fortified in putting it down by the number of people in every walk of life who, when they heard I intended to bring forward such a motion, wrote to me to say: "For goodness sake do not do it."

The proposer of the motion in the Dáil made the point that the rationing scheme had not been conceived so as to give an adequate amount of petrol to essential services and that a black market was naturally the result of that. The Minister in his reply did not deny the existence of a black market. He agreed that it was there. He said that it was possible to devise other means of distribution but he concluded by saying that in his view a ration based on the horse-power of cars with a supplementary allowance for certain people who wanted more, was the best system of distributing petrol. That is the system he has adhered to from the beginning. He then gave the Dáil some broad figures to indicate what the situation had been and what it is at the present time.

The Minister went into detail over the month of September last. Well that month serves pretty well as an example for the remainder. The figures he gave were, private cars, 143,000 gallons; commercial vehicles, 400,000 gallons; hackneys and that type, 139,000 gallons; Government services, 41,000 gallons; rail and bus companies, 184,000 gallons; industry and agriculture, 70,000 gallons, and two types of supplementaries which I have added made another 65,000 gallons. That gave the total figure of 1,086,000 gallons in that month. I think when the Minister gave these figures—I am not quite clear about it from reading it—he had before giving them subtracted the 1,000,000 given to the Army and the wastage which occurs. Whether that is correct or not I do not know. Well neither speaker in the end made any really constructive suggestion for improving the situation which a very great number of people in the country, to say the least of it. regard as being unfortunate. We started with a very simple, easy, cut and dried plan. That has gone on without any variation in spite of the experience which has been gained since its inception. Now this motion infers that there is an illegal traffic in coupons which are issued to specific individuals for definite purposes and if that inference is correct it means that petrol is being given to people who do not require it at the expense of those who do. That is really an extremely wasteful procedure and I am asking the House to say that steps should be taken to put the whole position on a better basis than it is at the present time.

I do not propose to take up the time of the House with specific instances. Anybody can put up cases—doctors, racing people. If one started raméis on those lines it would go on for ever. All of us to be quite fair know of professional types and concerns which are not getting sufficient petrol for their requirements. What I would like to do is to try to direct some of the spare petrol to these people who are serving the public and who now have to supplement their supplementaries by illegal means in order to do so. I am not such an optimist as to think that a position like this can be cured entirely, but I say this: if the thing is really tackled it may be made at any-rate less immoral than it is at the present time. Up to the present you may say that a petrol coupon has been a Government cheque for a specific quantity of the commodity for any car in any place, and I feel sure it was not the original intention that this should be so. I believe that if steps were taken really to enforce the law over and above the recent order which has come out, then the Minister would have a surplus which he could use for reserve or other purposes. I took some trouble in examining and working out the machinery which was required to get some way out of this. But I do not propose to go into the details. I will only mention two main things, and that is that coupons with counterfoils should be perforated not with the registration but the engine number of the car before being issued at Ballsbridge, and, secondly, that retailers should be forced to enter certain details in books for inspection. There are other very important details which I do not propose to raise here. I think that if that happened you would not have what has been going on up to the present, that is to say, a two-gallon coupon for a seven horse-power car in Donegal being cashed in Cork for a 30 horse-power car. If locomotion were restricted there would not be the same desire and wish to pay 5/- to 10/- for coupons. There are no doubt many ways of getting over any rule which is made, but there is also a very large number of ways of putting on the screw.

I feel that if the Minister asked the Gárda and the detective force really to take the matter seriously they would clear up this without very much trouble. That brings me to the second part of my motion. At the moment we are entirely dependent on two countries for our motor spirit, Great Britain and the United States of America, which are the only countries which can bring it to us. I feel that our position under present circumstances lays on us a humanitarian obligation to ensure as far as we possibly can the lives of seamen are not risked in bringing petrol for other than what you may call essential purposes. I use the word "essential" in a wide sense of the word but I feel that certain types of things should be restricted. Most of us remember when we managed to do at different times of our lives without motors at all. There is no great competition now and it seems to me hardly necessary that people should be able to hire cars for long journeys over this country. I have particulars of such being done almost every day. A great many of these journeys are made and they are no contribution whatever to our national necessity or national economy. I suggest, therefore, that the Minister should limit this type of locomotion and direct the petrol, say, into the more deserving tanks, those of the business and professional people, and keep the locomotion local instead of universal, as I said before, throughout the country.

Finally, a word as to the practicability of devising means of improving the present method of distribution to the advantage of those who are not at present able to work to full capacity. Would it not be possible to delegate the examination of all applications for petrol to the county council authorities and the chief superintendents of the Gárda Síochána? I feel that they have a very much more intimate knowledge of the circumstances of every one of the motor-car owners in their districts. The Minister would allot to each of these divisions, say, three-quarters of his available petrol. He would start by keeping one-quarter in reserve and, having done that, he would allot it in proportion to the number of vehicles, private cars, machines and industrial plant in each district. I intend that he should adhere to the basic ration. That would remain the keystone of the whole system but I think I should also ask him to lay down the general lines on which distribution should be made. I think there should be a definite division between the private car which is used partly for pleasure and partly for business and the private car which the Gárdaí and the county authorities would say was used purely for private pleasure. I think in that way you would start to increase the amount of petrol available for supplementaries and put it in the right place.

The Minister said in the Dáil that this would lead to a lot of criticism and that he felt to allow that criticism at all would be wrong and unfortunate. I cannot agree with him on that. I know that there would be all these different accusations of political and other favouritism, of loss of employment, loss of revenue, that people, in theory, would shut up their cars—in practice I do not think they would— that officials had too much to do and the Gárdaí would have too much to do. All these things would be poured out, but I think they would very soon die and I feel that it is the duty of the Government to stand up to these things, not only to stand up to them, but I think it is their duty to put down abuses such as those to which I have attempted to draw attention. I think that the public services which are still short of petrol and which require it should get it. Finally, I think there should be, in the very serious circumstances that exist, more forethought for the future. I do not want to repeat the words of the Minister, but he said he was working from hand to mouth and is giving out everything he can get and creating no reserve.

I cannot quite agree with the very constructive proposal of Senator The McGillycuddy.

Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator is seconding the proposal, I presume?

I will second it for the purpose of discussion, and to put it in order.

I see very considerable difficulty in administering this matter, and I think the Minister is right in so far as he shut the door on individual discretion. I know I tried —and I made a very strong case—for an extra supply and I was told there was no discretion whatever being exercised and I felt that was fair because the position of having to exercise discretion between private owners would be impossible. I do not think the county council or the Gárda Síochána would be able to do it with any sense of justice. I have not given much thought to this question except so far as any person who has to deal with this thing every day naturally cannot help thinking about it. I feel that in so far as private cars are concerned there is really not much to complain about. If the private car owner does not use all his petrol I think it is right, if he likes to give it to somebody else, that it can be done. There is a large quantity being used in that way. The trouble of the black market arises from two other sources —the lorry owners and commercial vehicle owners and from the hire of hackneys. There, I think, the Government should take steps to enforce the law to the utmost. It is very wrong indeed that hackney car owners who get petrol for a certain purpose should sell it in any shape or form, if their cars are not in demand. I think the Government should put all the machinery they have got to stopping that. The same way with commercial vehicles. It is utterly wrong —it is criminal—that commercial concerns who get petrol for commercial purposes should use it for any other purpose. As far as the machinery goes, I do not see much source of improvement beyond the enforcing of the law to make sure that petrol given for commercial or hackney purposes is used for no other purpose. I think that would place the whole matter on as satisfactory a basis as it can in practice very well be put.

I intervene in this discussion because at the present time there is a good deal of dissatisfaction expressed in County Clare at the way petrol is being distributed to the essential services. At the last meeting of the Clare County Council it was stated quite definitely, by responsible members of the county council, that there was not sufficient petrol to carry on ambulance services in a certain part of the county. That is a very serious matter. It is a matter of life and death. In the flat distribution of petrol to medical men, the same amount of petrol is given to a doctor working in hospital in Dublin as to a doctor who has to travel 30 or 40 miles, say, in a sparsely-populated area in Clare.

That is the doctors' own fault.

I do not know.

The Minister has asked them to distribute it.

I do not know whether Senator MacDermot is deputising for the Minister for Supplies or not. Candidly, I would prefer that the Minister for Supplies should tell me that than Senator MacDermot. I do not see why the Minister should hand over the baby to the doctors and ask them to formulate a scheme. It is the Minister's responsibility to formulate such a scheme, and it is his duty to appreciate the difference that travelling ten miles in one place may take three hours, while in another case it may take as little as three-quarters of an hour, and where even one life may be in danger that some provision should be made. I am not speaking without some knowledge of the matter because an authority in the country, speaking for the medical profession, has said that the matter requires examination and recasting. I do not know whether the Minister knows the configuration of certain counties—he ought to know, anyway. A doctor in a country area is not like a doctor in Dublin who can jump on a bus or a tram and travel very conveniently to his patient. In the country, a doctor may have to travel ten or 15 miles to visit some sick person, and if the ambulance service were to be held up, how are the patients in the country areas to be attended to?

The Minister will possibly tell us there is not sufficient petrol to enable the country doctors to do their rounds. I do not know what is the position in regard to petrol. All I know is that in my dealings with the Minister for Supplies I could not get any petrol for people who were prepared to drive me around. At one time, petrol was supplied to Deputies and Senators up to a point, and then that was stopped. and I was unable to get petrol for a good many drivers who were willing to take me in their cars if I could get it for them. Yet the very Sunday before this complaint was made by a public body in Clare, there were 17 motor lorries careering around the county—I do not know with what effect—bringing a few hundred men of the Local Defence Force to parade before a saluting base in Limerick. I do not know what purposes the 17 motor lorries bringing a few hundred men to parade in Limerick were intended to serve in the matter of defence or training, and I do not know how many lorries were used in Tipperary or Kerry. I put this thing in all seriousness before the Minister, because it is important in rural areas, and it is very hard to put a man of 45 or 50 years of age on a bicycle and expect him to do the work he used to do with the motor car. It is certainly not just and not fair.

I was rather surprised when I read this motion because I did not know what my friend The McGillycuddy had in mind. and I have not been made very much wiser by the speech which I have heard. I have some experience in the distribution of petrol and know a little about it. Private cars have been referred to. So far as I know, there is hardly such a thing as a private car at all, because every car is used for some business purpose, in one way or another. Hackney cars are also very essential, because a great number of people have given up their own cars altogether, and the only way they can get to their places of business is by means of a hackney car. I would not suggest that it should be used for long journeys if trains were available, but in a county where the train service is very small, the hackney car provides a very necessary service.

My friend Senator Hogan has referred to ambulances that have not sufficient petrol to do their work. I am aware that the contrary is the case. They are given, as well as I know, a reasonably ample supply, but it is often a question of distribution. One hospital in County Clare is about 25 miles from the point of distribution and all those things have to be fixed in regular order. They will come in and ask for a supply of petrol the same evening, and that could not possibly be done, because all distributions have to be routed to prevent a petrol lorry from running in and out with a few gallons at different times to each customer. In some cases, the hospitals themselves require reasonable reorganisation in order to give the distributing centre a chance to supply them. Taking all in all, between transport, hackneys and hospitals, and I am closely connected with the thing for a long time, I do not know that there is any ground for the allegations which we have heard about the distribution of petrol. There is always a little leakage in every form of organisation, but outside the small leakage, I think petrol distribution generally is on a very sound basis.

When I read this motion of Senator The McGillycuddy, I was wondering what kind of speech he would make, but, having listened to him very carefully, I am quite satisfied that I was right in thinking that he was completely out of touch with the position here as it actually exists. Anyone would imagine from Senator The McGillycuddy's speech that there was wholesale evasion of the laws and wholesale disregard for all the regulations. I can assure the Senator that this is by no means the case, and even if he were to go on a whole-time job with the Minister for Supplies, who is, all will agree, a very efficient man at his job, there would be just those little incidents here and there—those things cannot be avoided—but to say that there is anything like wholesale evasion of the regulations is completely fantastic, and a terrible exaggeration of the actual position.

With regard to Senator Hogan's statement on petrol in Clare, I think I am right in saying that the Minister for Supplies has already refuted it by giving the actual figures. He showed, at any rate, so far as I could read it, that the coupons for the petrol were actually in the possession of the Clare County Council at the time it was alleged they were not able to run the ambulance. In connection with the 17 lorries which Senator Hogan said were touring County Clare, I think it is in fact a bigger exaggeration than the greatest exaggeration of Senator The McGillycuddy. Senator Hogan paints a picture of 17 lorries touring County Clare and says that they carried a couple of hundred men to parade in Limerick. I was in Limerick, and I did not count the lorries, but I did hear Senator Hogan's leader, Deputy Norton, say on the platform that it was one of the proudest moments of his life, that nothing ever gave him such pleasure as the fine parade on that occasion and more phrases of that kind, and I am sure he felt a certain amount of pride when he saw the men from the Banner County passing by, and thought of his colleague, Senator Hogan, and how proud he would feel if he were there also. I think it is ridiculous for Senator Hogan to try to belittle a parade such as the parade in Limerick. If we could only produce parades of that kind in every county, the question of our defences would be regarded as safe, having regard to our capacity.

As to Senator Hogan's views on the good of parading men in Limerick, those who are regarded as the best authorities on military matters we have got, and members of the Defence Conference composed of all parties, are agreed that such parades serve not only a useful purpose, but a very useful purpose, and should have the support of all sections of this House and outside of it. Rather than try to build up bogeymen, if you like to call them that, in connection with this petrol business, a far more useful purpose could be served if the members of this House and other people who have influence in the country would start a campaign to get back to the horse. Nobody needs to be a prophet to say that inside 12 months petrol will not be as plentiful as it is now. Neither will fuel be as plentiful. If we could make people horse-minded again, as they were before, and bring them back to the old custom of using horses for every kind of transport, we would be doing more good than we are in criticising the Minister for Supplies because he is not able to pull petrol out of his hat to oblige us—and if he does pull it out of his hat, we will criticise him because he gives it to certain people and not to others.

We have as many horses in the country as we had before the people went crazy about petrol and before we started driving motor cars and using tractors for ploughing. We have those horses and no outlet worth talking of for them. In the national interest, the trend should be to put these horses to work. We know the work can be done with horses—it was done before—and if there is any lesson to be learned from this war it is that we should not depend on outside sources for our means of tilling the land and transporting the produce to the mills and elsewhere. We might as well be dependent on shipping for our wheat as be dependent on shipping for our petrol supplies if we continue to depend on these petrol supplies for the production of that wheat. We have still the horse and have men capable of working horses, and it is only a question of a push. I would suggest that the Minister for Supplies and the Minister for Agriculture should lead that push to put the horses back on the land.

I hope the debate will not be turned into a debate on horses.

And land.

I do not wish to take up the time of the House on the merits and demerits of the supply of petrol, but it struck me when I saw this motion the other day, that, in view of what has happened over the weekend when the world war blazed up, Senator The McGillycuddy's motion may scarcely be worth while at all. It is very doubtful if, in the next month, there will be such a thing as imports of petrol at all, or for that matter of a good many other items. So, in another short while we would not be arguing as to how petrol should be distributed, but as to how to carry on services that we had, without cars at all. That is a bald fact we have to face in the future. I am not a prophet, but I believe we will have no petrol in a short time. Instead of grumbling to ourselves about the shortcomings and difficulties of the present time, it would be far better for us to make up our minds and have confidence in ourselves, and make the most use of the things we have in peace in this country to-day and minimise the small number of disadvantages. We are a very lucky race. That is the general summing up I put on Senator The McGillycuddy's motion.

The Senator mentioned the question of taking numbers of engines instead of ordinary methods and gave one case. Let me give one personal point of view regarding that, in connection with the supply of turf. A lorry-owner getting coupons for the transport of turf has many forms to fill in. He has to say where he wants the turf, to whom he has sold it, the mileage between collection and delivery points and the number of tons carried by each lorry for which he wants coupons. Every minute and every mile has to be accounted for in the petrol consumption. These forms must be filled up in the most minute detail. As the result of that system, quite a large number of lorry-owners who originally claimed they were prepared to haul turf but who were not in a position to say that they had purchased any or sold any, were completely eliminated from any supplies of coupons. That is one typical example as to how tightly the Department of Supplies governs the issue of coupons for commodities such as turf.

The same applies, as a general rule, to every other claimant for kerosene or petrol. He has to give engine numbers and full details. The man who has a threshing set must say for whom he is threshing, the amount of threshing for each person, how long it will take to do it, and he must also give the engine number of the threshing set. A man who is falsifying these returns may not be caught the first or second time, if he is claiming a large amount of petrol or kerosene that he uses in a day's work. He will trip up sooner or later and will regret it, as he will go out of business if his returns are not honest. What better system is there, or what better idea can anybody suggest to the Minister to-night, than the one already in vogue?

Has the Senator considered some form of colouring?

There are many people colouring a lot of things in the world to-day. Senator The McGillycuddy mentioned the question of people hiring hackney cars and going long distances. I agree that the principle is wrong but, on the other hand, the hackney people are dependent on their cars for a livelihood. A sort of vested interest has grown up there. Surely to goodness, if a reasonable amount of petrol is available, it is the responsibility of the Minister to show his sympathy for those people and try to maintain their means of livelihood to the best of his ability. Surely it would not be fair to restrict the places a man would go or the distances he would travel. He may be able to make his livelihood with one man on one journey, instead of making half-hour or one-hour journeys.

If you start interfering with the liberty of the subject in that way, it is hard to know where it will stop. It would not be fair to the hackney proprietor to say he will be put in a ring or within a certain limit, in order to obtain his livelihood. That would be a serious matter. On the other hand, there is what is known as the utility car, which is very common in the countryside to-day. Those utility cars have been and are being used more for sporting purposes than anything else. That is something that the Minister might investigate. A larger supply of petrol is given for that utility car than is given for the commercial traveller or the user of a private car for business purposes. There might be a case for examination there. I am satisfied that there is a case for examination.

With regard to private cars generally, when the Department of Supplies decided to give a small allowance to private cars it put the mechanic back into work. I know that from observations made by garage owners. It is the experience of garage owners and of some members of the motor society that more employment is provided by repair work in connection with private cars than by any other branch of the business. If that is so, then it justifies the action of the Minister for Supplies in giving a small supply of petrol to private car owners.

I am afraid the House misunderstood me on the subject of private cars. What I said was that I would stick to the basic ration as the keystone of any altered system, but that it all hinged on who would get the supplementaries. I had no intention to take a single private car off the road.

I do not know about the supplementaries but, considering the difficulties and the general selfishness of outlook of a lot of people, much of the criticism levelled against the Department of Supplies in connection with petrol and other things is completely unjust. Perhaps, before the war is over, the people who are shouting most will realise how stupid a lot of their talk was. I do not know what the percentage supplementary allowances are of the total amount issued, but I am sure it is small and hardly worth talking about. There is a lot of criticism about supplies being issued to private persons. Senator Honan suggested to-day—and it is true—that the bulk of the private cars one sees on the roads are being used for business trips. The number of private cars on the roads now is infinitesimal compared with the number on the roads in peace time.

One sees very little travel on the roads except by lorries. One sees a score of lorries hauling turf which is practically the only commodity being hauled on the main roads between Athlone and the West. The best proof that the distribution of petrol must be as fair as it is humanly possible to make it is the return of railway receipts, both traffic and passenger receipts. They have jumped to such an extent that lorries and cars must be off the road. We have to admit that, generally speaking, we are in a very happy position. There is hardly a fireside in the world that is not affected in some form or other by this war. The extent to which people are affected in this country is slight compared with the troubles of people in other countries. Motions of this kind are superfluous in the present situation. It is indicative of a certain amount of rotten outlook in the country that we should have this sort of motion in this House and the other House. In the near future, we may have a lot more to grouse about. The people may have to suffer many jolts before peace is reestablished in the world again.

I do not think that this debate has been very enlightening or instructive. Senator The McGillycuddy did not give us any concrete cases of abuse. The only case referred to was one the mention of which by another Senator will be disapproved of by everybody in the House. I refer to the transport of the Local Defence Force. When volunteers give their services to an organisation like the Local Defence Force, this House should not grudge them transport to a parade which was demonstrative and educative to the country. I think that that matter should not be raised in the House. It did not involve any waste of petrol. I have no constructive contribution to make to the debate but I would appeal for better supplementary allowances to veterinary surgeons practising in the country.

The Minister has referred to the fact that doctors will get increased supplementary allowances by making applications to their associations. The secretary of the Veterinary Association has made appeals on behalf of veterinary surgeons and, unfortunately, has been unsuccessful. A veterinary surgeon in the country has to travel far greater distances than has a medical practitioner and his services are essential to the farming community. Besides, he has to carry equipment which cannot be carried on a bicycle or on horseback. Although one might say that a veterinary surgeon should travel by horse, he cannot cover the long distances he is required to travel on horseback, nor can he carry the necessary equipment. I appeal to the Minister to review the cases sent him on behalf of veterinary surgeons in the country. That is to suggest an increase. I cannot suggest whose allowance should be cut in order to provide that increase.

Senators may ask, when they see a lot of cars parked in O'Connell Street, where the owners got the petrol. We are oftentimes led astray in connection with cars parked in this way. The basic allowance for a small car is four gallons. I certainly think that the person who licenses his car and contributes to the revenue of the local authority is entitled to that allowance. As a member of this House pointed out, some of that petrol is used to take invalids to Mass on Sundays. Seeing cars parked outside churches on Sunday, I came to the conclusion that there was a waste of petrol. On examining into these matters, one finds that there is no waste. A large number of these cars were, probably, used to take invalids to church. The same applies to racing. We see cars at races and we think it is a waste of petrol. But racing is subsidised by the State and, if people do not come to the meetings, the meetings will be a failure.

They should ride horses to the races.

You cannot park a horse as conveniently as you can park a car. What seems a waste of petrol is, oftentimes, not really a waste at all. As an ordinary individual, I think the forging of these coupons should have been detected far earlier. It is all very well to say that the Department did not know they were being forged but I think the forgery should have been detected long before it was. The fact that so many coupons were forged and petrol obtained on the forgeries suggests that there must have been a surplus somewhere from which they were able to draw.

If we are going to endeavour to prevent the forging of petrol coupons in future a saving of petrol will result, and that petrol should be made available for legitimate car owners. That is one source from which an additional allowance could be made available for members of the veterinary profession. Senator The McGillycuddy mentioned that we were not building up any reserve, but the fact that it was possible to get petrol by means of forged coupons shows that some little reserve must have been there. Perhaps there is a variation in the amount of petrol which is wasted by evaporation during different seasons. I do not think that the evaporation in winter is as considerable as in summer, and that fact also would allow of some additional quantity being made available. The final remark I have to make is that perhaps we shall be lucky if it is possible to continue to distribute the quantity of petrol which is made available at present. We shall be very lucky if we succeed in maintaining that allowance in future.

The motion of Senator The McGillycuddy refers to two separate aspects of the problem of petrol distribution. It asks that petrol rationing should be more strictly enforced and also that distribution should be restricted as far as possible to the requirements of essential services. I shall deal with these two matters in the order in which the Senator raised them. I should like the House to understand, in the first instance, that it is conceivably possible to devise a more effective system of enforcing rationing than that in operation but the problem that faces anybody who has to devise a plan for controlling the distribution of the supplies of any commodity is how to obtain the greatest possible degree of compliance with the regulations with the least possible amount of supervision. Persons on the outside who are concerned only with the effectiveness of the regulations and who see loop-holes in these regulations and even instances of their successful evasion, do not concern themselves with the other aspects of the problem of the administrator or the deviser of the plan of control. Nobody would have any difficulty in devising a watertight system of distributing petrol or anything else, if he had at his command the services of a Gestapo or of some secret agents who could travel all over the country, riding on the carriers of cars or if such agents could walk incognito in and out of garages. With that vast organisation one could detect offences as quickly as they were committed or endeavour to eliminate the possibility of these offences occurring at all.

Our problem, however, is to get regulations, which can be easily understood by the average person, enforced by a limited number of officers with no very unusual powers. A too elaborate scheme will break down and would, in any event, involve an administrative organisation which is not available to us. A perennial problem in the Department of Supplies is the difficulty of securing a sufficient staff to administer all the regulations we should like to administer. I am not referring now to a clerical staff or to an inspectorial staff, but to the skilled staff at the top which is essential to the supervision of any scheme of control. It is within the limits of the available staff—and the Department of Supplies, as everybody knows, has drained the resources of the whole Civil Service and taken officers from every branch of the service for this particular job—that we have to devise a system that will work. I am not going to pretend that our system of enforcing the petrol ration is 100 per cent. perfect. It may not be 100 per cent. perfect but, in the circumstances of the case, I should like to assert strongly that it is not nearly as imperfect as is sometimes suggested. It is possibly true that people who get petrol for use in vehicles of which they are the registered owners may use that petrol for some other purpose than that for which they got it or even dispose of the coupons to other vehicle owners for a price. That can happen but our aim is to ensure that the supplies available to each class of vehicle owner will be so regulated as to ensure that it will leave no surplus, over and above the minimum required to do the particular job for which he employs the vehicle. We cannot do that completely.

I should like each Senator to put himself in the position of the man who has got to decide what the petrol ration is going to be. We face that problem at the beginning of the month. Now that cars are being taxed monthly, there is only a very limited period in which information can be made available as to the number of cars that will be taxed for the ensuing month and in respect to which coupons have to be issued. We get the number of these vehicles; we know the quantity of petrol that is available for distribution, and we must assume that each registered owner of a lorry is going to use that lorry in connection with his business or the business of somebody else during the month. He has paid a tax on it, and it is at that stage that a decision is taken as to the quantity of petrol which each owner will get. I do not think it is possible to make a decision on any basis other than to give a flat rate allowance to each owner calculated on the basis of the size and the type of his vehicle and the quantity of petrol it is likely to consume in the completion of a given mileage. That is the system on which we work. These basic allowances are determined at the beginning of each month. A proportion of the petrol available is kept in reserve to issue in supplementary allowances, mainly to lorry owners engaged in certain of the more essential classes of work—the haulage of turf, grain, timber or other essential commodities of that kind.

It may be that there are, here and there throughout the country, people who have paid tax upon vehicles that they do not intend to use, merely to get coupons. That cannot be decided at the beginning of the month when the tax is being paid. Eventually inspection will reveal if such persons exist and, in fact, a number of convictions have already been obtained against persons who have offended against one or other of the clauses of the Petrol Rationing Order. We have learned by experience and the allocation of petrol has been changed as experience showed that it should be changed. The process of detecting offenders and bringing them to court has been improved, judging at least by the number of persons prosecuted and convicted.

I am glad that Senator The McGillycuddy put down this motion with the intention of making a constructive speech. I welcome these constructive suggestions on any occasion. The problems of administration which arise in relation to these matters are all new problems to this country. This is the first time we have ever had to face them and to devise ways and means of dealing with them. They are problems which, in any event, change from day to day.

It is useful that we should all pool our ideas in order to get the best possible method of working. I do not want anything I may say to be regarded as discouragement to members of the Seanad or to members of the Dáil or members of the public in putting forward their suggestions, even though they may not be in a position to know the whole of the problem or the practical difficulties that may make the adoption of suggestions impossible. Senator The McGillycuddy suggested we should perforate the coupons with the engine number of a car in respect of which they are issued. Undoubtedly that would be an improvement which would help enforcement, but I think it would make very slight difference in enforcement. One of the rules of Government in administrative problems of this kind is that you can get a very considerable degree of enforcement with simple procedure. In order to improve the degree of enforcement complication of procedure is very considerable. The procedure suggested would create great difficulty.

Would it be very difficult with an ordinary perforating typewriter?

I want to give the Senator a picture of what occurs. I have mentioned the time taken. The issue of the coupons has to be done within a few days. The ration cards come in, that is to say evidence that the tax has been paid. A limited number of coupons have to go out. These coupons are issued by an ordinary clerical staff, and the problem of relating each of the coupons to a particular car would complicate the work of the staff very considerably. Notwithstanding that, I would say that it should be done if I could see that any considerable gain in enforcement would follow. I do not think it would. I do not think the average garage attendant will lift the bonnet of a car to see if it is the correct coupon.

Even if he did the petrol could be taken out of the tank later on.

Even if he did I was going to say once the car is driven away the coupon is filed in the garage office. In due course it will be surrendered to the petrol company to secure replacement of the petrol for which it is issued, but it is not possible at that stage to relate the coupon to a particular vehicle which used the petrol. It might happen that the adoption of that system would enable inquiries to be directed of the type that Senator The McGillycuddy referred to in a very occasional instance. That is, the presence in Cork of a coupon issued for a car registered in Donegal which would have only four gallons a month. In order to secure conviction or the beginning of an inquiry in an isolated case of that kind it would be a very elaborate procedure to set up the perforation of coupons in the manner suggested by the Senator, nor do I think that any change would follow if we were to adopt the suggestion of using the officers of the local authorities or the Gárda Síochána to decide the allocation of petrol within the limits of their own county. I do not think these officers could do anything more than the officers of the Department of Supplies are doing. There is a known quantity of petrol and a number of cars registered, and they would have to decide the quantity that each would receive on exactly the same principles as the decision is made now. I know that certain abuses have arisen. We decided to give petrol to hackney car owners, because we felt it essential in view of the curtailment of supplies to private cars that there should be available some emergency system of transport, and the hackney cars seem to provide that system. Personal emergencies arise every day and night. People get sick and have sudden calls to go and see sick relatives. They have to leave their homes sometimes in the middle of the night or at times when the public transport is not available. Urgent business requires people to travel from one part of the country to another.

We felt it would be impossible to distribute special allowances against emergencies of this kind as they arose. We felt that the simplest and best method to follow was to provide a reasonable ration to hackey car owners so that there would be available in each part of the country an emergency service with a supply of petrol. In practice, of course, we could not ensure that the hackney car owner would only use his vehicle for these urgent calls. The hackney car owner probably often found he made more profit by taking people to a dance or race-meeting or some other festive occasion which might make his clients ready to pay him better. In any case they could always pack more into the car than would be the case in a commercial call. Many hackney car owners became reluctant to answer ordinary commercial calls or emergency calls because they wanted to keep petrol with the intention of keeping a supply for these more profitable journeys on social affairs. I do not think that should induce us to stop the supply to the hackney car owner because there are still hackneys available in emergency in parts of the country, and if there is an emergency most hackney car owners are decent enough to sacrifice the higher profit they would make on social calls in order to make their vehicles available in an emergency.

Has the Minister got anything to say on the supply by hackney car owners to the black market?

Certainly. One of the problems that has to be faced is that under the present circumstances the hackney-car owner may make more profit by selling his petrol coupons than by running his car. It is conceivable that if 5/- or 10/- is paid for each coupon the hackney-car owner who gets his 40 coupons a month may make a substantial income by selling. Of course he has got to keep his car taxed and the many responsibilities he incurs as a hackney-car owner will have to be met. I do not know to what extent that is so, but nevertheless it is true that there are hackney cars continuing in operation, and if everyone could make more by the other system I am sure they would do it. I think also the Gárda Síochána have certain duties in respect of persons who get a hackney plate, and consequently they have not only to be taxed but also there is an obligation to be always available. It is the duty of the Gárda to see that that that obligation is met. In many cases the hackney plate is withdrawn on the initiative of the Gárda, who report that a particular individual is not a bona fide hackney owner at all, in the sense that his vehicle is not always available for the public. If there is any solution to this problem, or if any Senator likes to suggest a solution I would be glad to hear it. I think it would be too drastic to stop the petrol supply to hackney owners. That brings me to the second part of the Senator's motion, which relates to essential services.

One can judge all services in respect of which motor vehicles are used as essential from some aspect. They are either essential to the country or essential to the individual. From the point of view of the hackney car owner it is essential for him to get petrol, because otherwise he will have no livelihood, but whether it is essential from the national or public point of view that the hackney car owner should have a livelihood is another question. The same applies to private cars used for a variety of purposes. I get letters by the hundreds from various classes of people—invalids who, because of deformity or otherwise, find it very inconvenient to use public transport services, people who have got to be brought periodically to hospitals and to doctors for special treatment without which they will not live; businessmen engaged in a particular class of business which takes them into parts of the country where there is no public transport service at all—a whole variety of cases of that kind in respect of which it can be clearly said that more petrol is essential to the individuals concerned.

If the petrol ration were halved down to 10,000,000 gallons, what would the Minister still consider the essential things?

We have tried to regard as essential solely those services which could be so described from a public point of view. Let me again repeat that the system of distribution involves the granting of a basic ration to every car owner. He gets that irrespective of the purpose for which he requires his vehicle. We assume that most of the commercial vehicles in the country are used for essential services of one kind or another. The delivery of the groceries to my house or some other work of that kind may not be essential; it may be a convenience to me, and vehicles are used for that purpose but, generally speaking, these commercial vehicles are used for fairly essential services. Most of the private cars are used either in connection with business or as a personal convenience. People speak of private cars as being used for pleasure. I think that is a mis-description. There are very few cars, under present circumstances, used for purely pleasure purposes. They are used as a convenience. They are used to save time; they are used to avoid the delay and trouble that may arise in connection with the public transport services; they are used to facilitate business operations, rather than for purely pleasure purposes. We assume that each car owner is paying the tax on his car because it is important to him for some reason or another and he gets a basic ration. So far as the private car is concerned, that is a very small ration. The total basic ration given to all private car owners is less than 10 per cent. of the petrol we distribute in each month. We keep, as I have said, a balance of the available supplies. That is given in supplementary allowances to those who we decide are engaged in essential services. I may remind Senator The McGillycuddy that there was a period in which there was no basic ration for private cars at all, when the total available supply of petrol was much less than it is just at the moment, and when we had to cut out a whole lot of the classes of vehicle owners that are now getting allowances.

The essential services are the public transport services, the conveyance of commodities such as grain, turf, coal, fish and perishable goods and things of that kind. It is true that we have changed the basic allowances and the supplementary allowances as experience seems to justify it. Senator McEllin referred to the utility wagons. We decided only at the beginning of this month that the ration given to these utility wagons would no longer be available, that it was unjustifiable to give a special allowance to the owners of these cars which were, in some cases, used solely for the same purpose as a private car would be used. In respect of these utility wagons the ration given now is the ordinary private car basic ration, except where it can be shown that the vehicle is used for the conveyance of market garden produce or some other useful purpose of that kind, in which case a supplementary allowance is given.

Many of the criticisms of the system of petrol distribution are based upon misunderstandings. A very typical case of misunderstanding was that referred to by Senator Hogan. I read the report of the Clare County Council where it was said that people could not be conveyed to hospital because there was no petrol for the ambulance, and I immediately set inquiries on foot. The question that arose is not whether the allowance of petrol given to the ambulance was sufficient but what happened to the petrol that was given to the ambulance. An inquiry is proceeding at the moment because I found that in this month the quantity of petrol issued to the Clare County Council for the use of its ambulances actually exceeded their own estimate of what they would need. No doubt, there are some officials of the Clare County Council who were not at all enthusiastic at the prospect of an inquiry proceeding as to what happened that petrol.

The private car owners who get supplementary allowances at present are doctors, veterinary surgeons, clergymen and midwives. It may interest Senators to know that I have decided to give certain supplementary allowances to members of the Dáil and Seanad for the purpose of attending meetings of these bodies. Arrangements for the introduction of that supplementary allowance are at present being made with the officers of these Houses. In the case of doctors, I am well aware that there is a considerable difference between the type of practice done by one individual doctor and another, and that consequently the petrol needs of one doctor vary considerably from those of another. I do not think, however, that I should take on myself the responsibility of deciding between doctors when the Medical Union will not do it. I said to the Medical Union that I was prepared to give the same quantity of petrol to the whole medical profession and to let them decide to differentiate between one class of doctor and another, or between one class of dispensary doctor and another. I said in effect: "You pick out the doctors who are to get more and the doctors who are going to get less, and I will carry out your wishes in the matter." They would not undertake that job. They did send me a rather amazing suggestion, which was to the effect that dispensary doctors in areas where there was a rural district council should get less petrol. The suggestion was amazing because I think we are all aware that rural district councils were abolished some 15 years ago. But even if they existed, I could not for the life of me see what relationship they would have to the petrol needs of doctors. Examining the list, I found amongst those doctors who they suggested should get less petrol, were the doctors in Glenties, Oughterard and many outlying districts of Galway and Connemara. I sent that suggestion back to them and asked them to reconsider it, but they have not come forward again with any better proposal.

I am prepared to act upon the recommendations of the Medical Union in differentiating between doctors. I think if there is to be differentiation, that they should do it. I do not think it is desirable that I should do it, because if I were to attempt it, I would have to undertake an investigation of the kind of business which each doctor does, and such types of investigation should be avoided. I think that if I gave more petrol to veterinary surgeons, the doctors would retort that I was placing the lives of animals above those of human beings, and while that may not be fair, it is a retort that could be made. I can say straightaway in relation to the veterinary profession the same as I said to the doctors: "There is a quantity of petrol. If somebody within the profession will decide on a different system of allotting it, I am prepared to act on their recommendations, but they must indicate not merely those who are to get more petrol but also those who will get less."

Will you do the same with Senators?

The system of distribution in regard to Senators and Deputies will be more definite. I think I have covered all the points which have been raised.

Senator Quirke's horse has gone back again to the stable.

I would merely like to say this: So far as humanly possible we will endeavour to enforce the existing regulations. Enforcement is a matter for the inspection staff of the Department and the Gárda Síochána, and they are being continuously used to track down offenders and bring them into court. In many cases, offenders have been brought to court, but often in court the difficulty is to prove that something occurred, although you know it took place. I do not know that any of the suggestions made here would improve the system of rationing, or make it more easily enforceable. At least, if they would improve it, they would involve such an addition to our organisation that the game would not be worth the candle. In relation to the restriction of supplies, we are doing that, subject to the basic ration, and I gathered that Senator The McGillycuddy and others are not in favour of an alteration of the basic ration. Subject to that, we are distributing the balance of supplies for commercial use, and determining their essential character by relation to the public need there is for continuing them. If our petrol position should deteriorate it is only these users who will get supplies at all. Senator The McGillycuddy made one mistake in quoting from my speech in the Dáil. I did not say that we were guaranteed 20 million gallons; I said that the quantity we were told to expect in 1941 was 20 million gallons. What the supply for 1942 will be, I cannot say.

And he would be a wise man who would.

We have no reserves, because we could not have got them, and that point is not easily understood. There are many people who think that if we had reduced the ration last year or this year we could have built up a reserve. In fact, the system under which we are supplied would not allow of that. The quantity we get is not a fixed quantity. We get a new supply when our stocks have run out, and if we try to build up a reserve by cutting down the original ration we would merely delay the day on which we would get new stocks. It is the policy of the petrol companies, and the reason is fairly obvious under present circumstances, not to allow the accumulation of reserve stocks here. The danger of transporting supplies across the Atlantic is such that one can easily understand that they do not wish to allow us to build up stocks against an emergency that may never arise. So far as military reserves are concerned, they are in a separate category, and they have been taken out of the control of the oil companies but, for ordinary commercial or civilian purposes, it is not in our power to build up reserve stocks. If the policy of the companies should change, we will have no difficulty in accommodating all the reserves they may decide to allow us.

In spite of the chorus of disapproval from large portions of the House, I am still satisfied that this discussion has done no harm. I agree, first of all, with Senator Quirke, that we would be much better off if we could go back to the horse and, indeed, if we never left him, there would probably not be this world war. Down in Kerry, in fact, I myself have bought a pony and trap —I do not know whether Senator Quirke has done that. I was somewhat distressed and alarmed at the umbrage which Senator McEllin took at my putting down the motion at all, but he did warn us of one important thing which we all have to consider, that in a month's time, there may be no petrol at all, and we will have to go back to the horse. But, I was finally assured by the length at which the Minister dealt with the problem. I think he thought it was a matter of importance, and I am grateful for the detail into which he went and the way he explained the difficulties he has in the matter. Personally, I have done a certain amount of administration of this type and I think he somewhat overstressed the difficulties. I do not think that the picture which he drew of himself and myself sitting on the back seats of cars and going into garages to find out what was happening is at all a realistic one. I should not have thought it was necessary at all, if your garage proprietor entered his details—I know it is a bit of trouble for the proprietor—and, if an occasional visit were paid by an inspector, there would be no further abuses as soon as there were some prosecutions.

However, that is only one point. Provided the Minister sees the law is really enforced, I think you will immediately have a very considerable difference. I want to make it clear that I never for one moment desired or intended that we should go away from the Minister's very excellent plan of the basic ration. What I want to try to deal with is the redistribution of the supplementaries, and the possible re-examination of the amount of petrol which is issued to hackney cars and to some other commercial vehicles. I did not at any time specify any particular type. I never referred to turf lorries, although other people have referred to them. I have done my best to try to keep the discussion on as general a line as possible. If feeling in the House is against me I would like to withdraw the motion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

I wish all Senators, as well as the Minister for Supplies, a very happy Christmas.

The Seanad adjourned at 7.20 p.m. sine die.

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