Price of Bacon Pigs—Motion.

Mr. Baxter

I move:—

That, in the opinion of Seanad Eireann, it is essential in the public interest to increase the price of bacon pigs so that production will be adequate at least to meet our home requirements.

Every opportunity I get in this House I stress the point that the major consideration with us at all times must, and should be, to get the maximum production out of our land. To get the maximum production, we must engage in many types of farming activities. My view is that there is nothing which is more necessary to obtain maximum production than ordered method in farming activities. Just as a farmer on his farm must see, even before the beginning of the season. how he is going to plan his work and how his various activities are to be co-ordinated, so it was regarded as essential some years ago in the interest of pig production that we should have some kind of ordered planning and marketing in order that pig production could be maintained at a high level and that the fruits of the labour involved would be apportioned amongst the various people engaged in the industry in proper relation to the value of the services which they gave in that production. We all remember the legislation which the Minister introduced some years ago known as the Pigs and Bacon Act. Each individual in the Oireachtas, in a non-Party spirit, made his contribution as best he could in aiding the Minister to produce a scheme that we hoped would bring ordered regularity and stability into the whole pig and bacon industry.

The Pigs and Bacon Act operated for perhaps two or three years. The Minister then became dissatisfied—I might say that the country itself was not very satisfied—with the results accruing from that legislation and it was amended by the Oireachtas later. A new structure was raised up which we now have, called the Pigs and Bacon Commission. This body which now has in its charge the management of the whole pig and bacon industry of the country, consists as far as I know of three individuals. One of them was formerly the chairman of the Pigs and Bacon Board, while the two other members were recruited from the staff of the Department of Agriculture. I expressed grave doubts when that measure was going through the House, as to whether the results accruing from the operations of this body would be satisfactory. I doubted very much if they would be. I felt myself that that sort of Civil Service manning of what is really a commercial concern could not in the nature of things be regarded as satisfactory. Now, as far as I can see, the results of the work which these people have accomplished in their period of office are anything but satisfactory from the point of view of pig producers and of the bacon industry in the country as a whole.

It may not be quite fair of me to allege failure against a group of people in the circumstances of the times and in the difficulties through which we are all passing, when in fact Ministerial policy may have also made its contribution to the comparative failure that those people have met with in their efforts. Whatever the causes may be, the facts to-day are that the pig population in this country is probably lower than it has been in the lifetime of any of us. That is my opinion. I have not got the figures, and I do not know whether even the Minister or his Department can have anything like accurate figures, but it appears to me that we have reached a point now when our pig population is certainly lower than it has been for a very great number of years. I suggest in the first place that the management of the pigs and bacon industry by the people who are charged with the responsibility of managing or controlling or regulating it has made a very big contribution to that situation. I think, from every angle, that is a most unhappy condition of things to have brought about.

I should like the House to look at some of the recent figures which the Minister has given with regard to the slaughtering of pigs here. Recently we have had figures published showing that for the first 23 weeks in 1941 the number of pigs slaughtered amounted to 418,541. For the same 23 weeks in 1942 the number slaughtered was 209,252. Less than 50 per cent. of the numbers slaughtered in 1941 were slaughtered in the first 23 weeks of 1942. The killings for the first week in June, 1941, were 16,684, and for the same week in 1942 the figure was 6,715. The Minister, in reply to a question in the Dáil some weeks ago, gave very complete returns for 1941 and 1942. As reported in Volume 87 of the Official Debates of 3rd June, 1942, column 870, the Minister told us that the number of pigs received at the bacon factories in the week ended 31st May, 1941, was 15,062, while the figure for the week ended 23rd May, 1942, was 6,655. Personally, I regard that as a disastrous situation. I am not going to weary the House with a whole series of figures, because they all point to a drift in the same direction. I have figures here—I presume they have been brought to the Minister's notice in some other way—taken over a more limited field. They are published in this paper by Mr. Murphy on his investigations into the result of farming on 61 farms in West Cork. Those are interesting figures, and I think it well to put them on record. They relate to the year 1940-41. He says:—

"The position in regard to pigs may be briefly summarised as follows. On two farms no pigs were kept during the year. Sows were kept on 64 per cent. of the remaining farms, as follows: on 7 per cent. of the farms between ten and 20 acres; on 64 per cent. of the farms between 20 and 30 acres; on 79 per cent. of the farms between 30 and 40 acres, and on all the farms between 40 and 50 acres."

He then goes on to say:—

"Some of the sows on the farms on 1st May, 1940, were sold or killed during the year, and were not replaced. The number of sows on the farms at 31st April, 1941, as compared with the number on 1st May, 1940, decreased as follows: on ten to 20 acre farms, 66 per cent. of a decrease; on 20 to 30 acre farms, 39 per cent.; on 30 to 40 acre farms, 22 per cent.; on 40 to 50 acre farms, 42 per cent.; and on all farms there was a decrease of 38 per cent."

Before going into the causes which have brought this situation about, I think it is very important that we should appreciate the fact that we are speaking, in my judgment anyhow, of probably our most essential food commodity, apart from bread. We are talking about a commodity which goes into nearly every house every week, and into most houses day after day. I do not know what the exports were in 1941, but I think they were comparatively small, if indeed there were any exports at all. We have reached a situation now when our people are being rationed to the extent that a great many of them, even though they have the money, cannot buy bacon at all. We hear a great deal of talk about people having to pay too high a price for a commodity, but we have now reached a point where, no matter what they are ready to pay for this commodity, they cannot buy it, and this is a commodity which we have been accustomed to produce here and of which we have always had a surplus up to the present period.

Apart altogether from the position with regard to pigs as a food, there is another aspect of the situation of which we must not lose sight. Looking at it from the nutritional point of view, the position is even graver still when we consider it with reference to our supply of fats. I think the matter should be very gravely examined from that angle. The Minister, as a student of medicine, can speak on this aspect of the matter with more authority than I can. According to figures which the Minister gave to the Dáil, as reported in the same volume of the Official Debates at column 740, our total production of margarine in 1940 was 123,008 cwts.; of lard, 60,792 cwts., and of dripping and other edible fats, 34,434 cwts.

I do not know to what extent, if at all, we are manufacturing margarine to-day. I think we are not manufacturing it at all. As far as I know, we have completely used up all the raw material, and we have no stocks, so it appears that we have to fall back on what we can obtain from our own animals for our supply of fats. I think we had no surplus of fats in this country over the past winter. It is quite obvious that we even had to draw upon our supplies of butter in order to make up our shortage of fats in other directions. Has anybody given any consideration to the situation which will confront us in the coming winter?

I do not know what the figures are for the amount of margarine that was available for consumption in 1941, but we had over 123,000 cwts. in 1940, and apparently there is none available for us now. I have here, in another form, figures showing the number of pigs slaughtered up to the end of March, 1941. I will give them to the House in this order, so that they will get a general impression of what I am driving at. For the 12 months ending 31st March, 1939, the number of pigs slaughtered amounted to 984,905. In 1940, it had gone up to 1,102,037. We slaughtered over a million pigs in the year 1940 and, apparently, we got 60,000 plus 34,000—that is 100,000— cwts. of fat as a result of these slaughterings. We may add to that 123,000 cwts. of margarine for internal consumption. In 1941, the numbers had gone down to 827,677, so that obviously the amount of fats from our pig population in 1941 would have been considerably less than that for 1940. We killed 200,000 pigs less. In the year 1940-41, through the slaughter of cattle in a number of our bacon factories, largely because of the residue of fat stock left owing to the foot-and-mouth position, a considerable quantity of fats was made available which is not likely to be available to us this year to the same extent. Viewing the position from no other angle than the possible shortage of fats as a result of the considerable drop in our pig population, I think the situation cannot be regarded otherwise than very grave.

In discussing this matter, one of the points made to me—a point that is accepted historically—was that, in the last war, it was not the British or American Army or the British or American fleet which beat the Germans but the shortage of fats at home. While, there are all sorts of grave questions confronting us, no graver question from the point of view of nutrition confronts us than this question. All too little attention is being given to it. That is the position as I see it from the point of view of an absolutely irreplaceable food. There has been a great deal of discussion in this House and elsewhere about pigs. One would get the impression from much that has recently been said that the pig was the latest felon, that, wherever seen, it should be done away with as quickly as possible, that it was consuming all sorts of human food in all sorts of conditions and that, as a consequence, the people would be starved to death. I never could understand the attitude of mind of those people who talked about what the pig ate and forgot that, when the pig ate these things, they ate the pig. I shall not enter into a debate as to what the pig consumes. There has been a lot of misunderstanding and misrepresentation regarding that matter. If the pigs ate one-tenth of the human food they were alleged to have eaten, where have these pigs gone? They were not slaughtered in the bacon factories. Although we have been doing some smuggling of them across the Border, they did not go across there. They were not consumed in the farmers' homes and they were not eaten alive. The pigs were never there to eat the quantities of wheat they were alleged to be eating. Even if one-tenth of the wheat which was missing had been fed to pigs—the number of pigs would have been much greater if it had— there is this factor to be taken into account: pigs about a house consume a considerable amount of material which would be wasted if they were not there.

Thousands and thousands of tons of potatoes—I say this with a full sense of responsibility—are going to waste at present and are being thrown at the backs of ditches and into pits in the fields, whereas, if there had been a sensible policy with regard to our pig population, these potatoes could have been fed to pigs, which would have been available for human food. They could even have been fed to sows which should have been kept in existence to produce more food for us. All my neighbours have potatoes which they cannot get rid of. It would not pay them to pick the potatoes from the pit and take them into the town and sell them.

There is considerable waste in the total tonnage of potatoes because they are deteriorating in the pits. That situation should never have been allowed to develop in times like these. I do not understand how it was permitted to develop to such an extent. We were almost terrified into the belief that, if we ate sufficient potatoes during last winter, there would be nothing to keep us alive during the spring and summer. Nobody knew where we stood. If a vigorous effort had been made to get an approximate estimate of our potato stocks—I urged that long ago—we might not be up against the situation with which we are confronted now. To the intelligent, tidy farmer, there is nothing more depressing than to see things going to waste about his place. It does not encourage the farmer to increase his area under potatoes in 1942 to see his 1941 crop still unused. In my county, acres and acres which would have been under potatoes are now under flax for the reason that farmers are saying "Here we are with potatoes from last year and we cannot get rid of them." The pig situation is such that they cannot feed them to pigs. Who can blame these men for turning to flax?

I know it also to be a fact that there are farmers offering their skimmed milk to neighbours to take away because so much of it cannot be consumed. I do not want to exaggerate, but I say it is a situation which should never have been permitted to develop. I made a point some time ago with regard to this question of feeding pigs and the Minister expressed the view that potatoes and skimmed milk were only a maintenance ration. I would like the Minister to come along to see the pigs for himself and he will find that I am doing something more than keeping life in them. That is the situation which confronts us with regard to our stocks of pigs and the waste which has occurred because of the lack of proper management of the pig and bacon industry as a whole. A shortage of that sort of food should have been foreseen, as it was avoidable. Its consequences may be very grave indeed. If fats are not obtainable next February and March at fair prices for families struggling in towns and rural districts the results may be very serious. The health of the children and of the people may be affected if some measures are not taken to make up for the deficiency of fats. The Minister may be able to dissipate my fears and enlighten me on it, but I have described the position as it appears from the figures available to me. What has brought that about? As far as I can read the facts, it was deliberate policy. The Minister can refute that. I know that he is more difficult to argue with than some of his colleagues. As one of my colleagues remarked he has a much more disarming way than the others.

I have been examining the figures which the Minister gave in reply to a question asked in the other House, and if there is anything that is a contradiction of the Minister's own idea and my idea and that of every Deputy and Senator in getting the Pigs and Bacon Act through, these figures show it. The policy pursued by the commission over a period is a contradiction of the conception generally held of the objects of the commission. My view was that we wanted to bring in stability with regard to price so that there could be continuity with regard to policy. The fact is that there has been greater instability in price during the last 12 months than we experienced even when the markets were open. In my younger days I went to many a pork market and I agree that conditions were anything but satisfactory. To-day the market was 58/-, 60/- or perhaps 69/- or 70/-, and to-morrow it might be 73/- and 75/-. We all believed that the Minister meant to end that and that he regarded it as bad and unfair. Taken over a period, the cost of production in pigs alters very little. The Minister will recollect all the arguments we had here on the various amendments which were rejected but to the principle of which the Minister gave a considerable amount of support. He recognised that the cost of production ought to be largely the basis on which price would be decided.

Now, let us look at what the Pigs and Bacon Commission have done. In his reply, given in the Dáil Debates for June 1st, at page 871, we get the prices from the 21st October, 1940, to 25th May, 1942. The public are not very well accustomed to the variations of grades and classifications with regard to pigs, but on the 21st October, 1940, a price was fixed which was to continue until January 12, 1941. There were three classifications, the highest price being 88/- per cwt., and the next 85/-.

Mr. M. Hayes

Even an increase can be a complication.

Mr. Baxter

We had that price from the 1st October, 1941, to 4th January, 1942. From the 5th January to the 15th February the price was fixed at 112/-, which was the same price for the top grade; 105/-, which was a reduction of 2/-, for class II; and then there was another class introduced and the price was brought down to 95/- for that class. On the 4th January the price for a particular pig was 107/- and on the next day it came down to 95/-.

Peadar Mac Fhionnlaoich

Bhí sé ag dul suas go dtí sin.

Mr. Baxter

There was no difference in the cost of feeding on the two days. The next dates are the 16th February to the 15th April. We have a reduction all round from 112/- to 106/- in the 1st grade, from 105/- to 98/- in the 2nd grade and from 95/- to 80/- in the 3rd grade. I would like Senators to understand that, from 4th January to 5th April a particular weight of pig fell in price from 107/- to 80/-. Then we come on to the 6th April, when the prices of 106/-, 98/-, and 80/- were refixed. On the 25th May we had a price—the last price—of 106/- for top grade, 100/- for grade II instead of 98/-, and in grade III, the heaviest grade of bacon, the price was left standing at 90/-.

I presume that the Minister will point out that it was sought to operate a definite policy by this fixation of prices. So far as the policy was to reduce the pig population, because of fears of a food shortage, it has produced that result, and the pig population has been considerably reduced. On the other hand, very considerable quantities of food have gone to loss already and others are on the way to waste. From the 2nd of June, 1941, to the 30th September, 1941, the price of pigs was 110/-, 105/- and 95/-, and in June, 1942, it is 106/-, 100/- and 80/-. In addition, the pig population has fallen, for the same week in June— killings—from 16,684 to 6,715. All that demonstrates the effect of the policy that is being pursued by the Pigs Commission or the Department, or the two combined. It has produced very unsatisfactory results as regards the pig population and the killings in factories.

That is a further consideration. No one will argue that it is cheaper to produce pigs or anything else on the farm to-day than it was 12 months ago. I do not know how the Minister will make the argument that, from the 1st October, 1941, to the 4th January, 1942, a pig was worth 107/- per cwt., and on the 5th January it was worth only 95/-. The cost of production did not decrease at all. In fixing a price like that, the cost of production cannot have been taken into account, or else there was a definite resolution to "hang the consequences", and to let people go out of pig production altogether.

When people like myself bring forward questions like this, it is easy to say that it is being done to-obtain a political score or to air grievances. I do not say that the Minister pursues that line. He faces up to the situation. He is disarming. He will concede that the facts are there and that the point of view is quite understandable, and he will meet the case. I have not brought up this or any other motion in my name to obtain political scores or to air grievances. The situation I have revealed is altogether too serious to attempt to meet it with that sort of argument, and I hope it will not be met in that mood. The case I have presented should be attacked and examined to see whether our policy in regard to the pig population is wise or defensible, and whether or not the price-fixing policy of the Pigs Commission could have any other effect than the one it has had. The pig population is at its lowest level for the past 50 years, with very disastrous results to the health of the people from the nutrition point of view.

There is another aspect which we must not lose sight of. Farmers have to live, and they can live only by paying their way and balancing their budgets. We all know how difficult it is for a man to get credit when he wants it. We know how he is adjudged credit-worthy—according to this new technical term that has come in recently. We know very well that his credit always is determined by his capacity to increase production, and by the amount of profitable production in which he can engage. What will the result be with regard to our farming incomes, owing to the stupendous decline in the pig population and in pig killings? Whatever the effects may be on the health of our people, the results will be deplorable from the point of view of the farming income. The farmer's purchasing capacity will be reduced considerably, and that certainly has some relation to the case we were making yesterday to the Minister for Finance, in regard to the farmer's capacity to bear his share of the burden of taxation.

In Mr. Murphy's examination of the situation in Cork, approximately 20 per cent. of the total farm income came from the production of pigs. On the figures which I have given, the killings have been reduced by about one-third, and if the 20 per cent. of the farmer's income derived from pig production is to be reduced by one-third, obviously we must all ask in what other manner, or from what other branch of agriculture, the income is to be increased in order to bring it up to the level at which it stood last year.

Will some of our economists answer that? I do not know where it is going to come from. There is no doubt at all that unless we can take a saner view with regard to our whole farming economy, unless we can have a steadier position, a better balance in every respect, the whole economy of our farms is going to be thrown completely out of gear. Everybody here knows that there were days when certain creameries were pouring a good deal of the skim milk down the drain. There were parts of the country in which that did not happen, but it should not happen anywhere now, because these are not days when we can afford to waste anything; and while the Minister may have been scared by fears of a pig population beyond our capacity to feed, a closer examination of the position would have revealed the fact that while it was bad to have pigs that we were not able to feed, to behave in such a way as to reduce the population below the level of our needs would have disastrous results. I move this motion in the belief that the situation demands a reversal of policy on the part of the Pigs Commission. I can only express disappointment that our efforts at legislation did not bring more stability into pig production. Apart altogether from the effect on our food situation, on the income of our farmers, or in the waste that has resulted from our not having kept the pig population up in our factories, people are becoming unemployed. If it was an industry which could use our own raw materials and was going out of existence, there would be a much greater storm about it than there has been about the bacon factories.

I know of a bacon factory where recently they installed saw benches to saw timber in order to keep their employees working. Altogether there were over 5,000 men and women employed in these factories and earning good wages. It is common knowledge that employment is declining. The costs of production to-day are no lower than they were 12 months ago, and I urge that the situation is such that the price must be raised if we want the pig population increased and if we are going to feed the people with our pigs. Just across the Border the price to the northern farmer is £6 12/- per cwt., while here with us in an adjoining townland it is £5 6/- per cwt. I think there is some small trade across the Border as a result of that. There is a trade not alone in pigs, but also in sows carrying young, and that is going to reflect itself on our pig population as well. But there is this further development, that in the Dublin market yesterday the price fixed in the market was, I am told, completely ignored. I am informed that the price of pigs on foot, live weight, was higher in the Dublin market yesterday than the price actually fixed by the Pigs Commission for dead-weight pigs going into the factories. That is an impossible and entirely uneconomic situation to be permitted to develop. The facts can no longer be ignored. The consequences are so widespread that they concern people other than the farmers. I urge the House to accept the motion and the Minister to undertake to implement it at once.

Mr. McGee

I am supporting this motion. Senator Baxter used some of my material when he used a word which nearly raised a storm yesterday, but I think we can take it for granted that the pig is not creditworthy. We should have, through the Bacon Commission, a settled procedure established, so that producers would know exactly where they were. The most competent producers are feeling the pinch, because everybody else has given up the business. Anyone who went into the industry, with a flair for profit, has left. A guarantee of constancy would lead to greater thrift, and would furnish citizens who use the pig as a small investment of capital with an outlet as a constant cash producer. Some workers rear large families, and look forward to the payment of expenses by the sale of pigs. A religious ceremony in one particular parish that I have in mind was affected this year owing to the position of the industry.

The fact that they could look for no profit created hardship in certain townlands in a mountainous area, and caused some heartburning among many residents. While it is all very well to suggest that the pigs are consuming wheat, I think there was something of a scare about that. People should be very slow to agree with anything that would discourage poor producers whose feeding of pigs created more tillage and more employment. I think it was Mr. McGovern, of Larne, whom we might describe as a most extensive producer, who stated recently that from an acre of ground manured by pigs he reaped something like 40 to 50 tons——

Professor Johnston

Tons of what?

Mr. McGee

Greens—grass or clover. The instability of the industry is to be deplored. When many farmers have their pigs ready for market the quota arrangements seem to operate unduly against producers in the northern part of the country. We have not sufficient factories, and those that we have do not give a fair quota against the southern distributors. When a pig is not sold at the time he is a certain weight, grading operates unduly severely. The producer has to give valuable food to keep the pig in any sort of condition, and obviously when a 16 stone pig has to be sold at a cheaper rate it must be regarded as a dead loss of valuable food. That is a matter that has not been sufficiently attended to. In fact, no one would imagine that there was such a thing as a bacon board or a commission at the head of affairs judging from the persistent changes that take place.

It is sometimes said that bacon is dear, and that the farmers are getting enough for their produce, but the fact is that while the price in Éire is from 80/- to 101/6 per cwt., in the Northern counties it ranges from 120/- to 132/-. At the present time, the pig population has so decreased that the numbers coming into the factories will be considerably reduced. Consequently overhead charges are tending to increase out of all proportion to the quantity of bacon produced. This morning I got a circular, which was very welcome, announcing that we shall be allowed a bounty on the surplus potatoes, which many of us possess to a considerable extent, to enable the potatoes to be transported to the alcohol factory at Cooley. That is a very excellent idea, and will be very helpful in parts of the country which are five or six miles from a railway and where the people have been accustomed to devote their potatoes to pig-rearing. It goes to show, however, the loss that has to be borne by the State when it is necessary to give a bounty to utilise potatoes which would otherwise have been consumed by pigs in these districts. I am very grateful, of course, for this concession. There are four other producers in my area who will also be grateful. Some of them have continued in a small way in pig production, but I personally went out of it two or three years ago.

The biggest grievance that the housewife now has is concerned with the grading of pigs. I do not know how it is done. I have frequently seen pigs being sold at 16 stone. I am as good a judge of a rasher as anybody else, but I never heard anybody suggesting that he would sell me a rasher of the 16-stone pig at a cheaper figure than a rasher of a pig from a more desirable type. It is much like the bushelling of wheat. No miller ever suggests selling you flour from wheat that has bushelled 54 cheaper than the flour from other wheat. In the same way, the bacon-curer who pays 10/- less than the recognised price for a certain grade pig will charge you the same price for a rasher from that pig as from that of a pig that has made the top grade. Obviously, the farmer feels that he has a distinct grievance, and when one considers that we are supposed to have a first-class Pig Board, this irregularity in accepting pigs is something that should not be allowed to occur. I remember a time when the grandest dinner you could get in the country consisted of bacon and cabbage, but I am afraid that day is past.

In my opinion, the price of pigs should be guaranteed over a period so that producers would know where they stood and what commitments they had to face. The irregularities in accepting pigs, so consistently pursued without any regard to the producer, are enough to kill any industry. We should also remember the terrible hardship connected with the rearing of pigs. If you happen to have eight or ten sows on your farm, it will take a fairly active young fellow to look after these sows and watch them. Pig production is a great industry if you can make it pay, but the reward for it nowadays is so meagre that it is not worth the candle. The hardships which have to be endured, if the industry is to be carried on as it should be, are almost intolerable.

I have made some effort to obtain costings in connection with pig production and I have been advised by others who have done likewise. I shall take as one instance the period, at March, 1940, when the price of pork was 97/- per cwt. dead weight. A 16 weeks old pig then cost about 35/-. It would take about 135 days to rear that pig to the point at which it would weigh 12 stones, dead weight. The first cost was £1 15s. 0d. Then you required 2½ cwts. of meal at 14/6½d. per cwt. or in all £1 6s. 3d.; 11¼ cwts. of potatoes at 2/3 per cwt. giving a total of £1 5s. 5d. for potatoes; 11¼ gallons of skim milk costing 8/5; firing cost 7/6; labour 6/6; delivery to factory 1/- and depreciation of implements such as buckets, trough and boiler 2/6 That gives you a gross total of £6 2s. 7d. for outlay. The value of the pig at a weight of 12 stones allowing 97/- per cwt, was £7 5s. 6d. showing a net profit of £1 2s. 11d. Those, as I say, are the costings at March, 1940. Again take the costings of rearing a similar pig in May, 1942 when pork was 106/- per cwt. The first cost of the pig at 16 weeks was £2; 2½ cwts. of meal at 21/6 per cwt, cost £2 13s. 9d.; 11¼ cwts. of potatoes at 2/9 per cwt. cost £1 10s. 11d.; 11¼ gallons of skim milk cost 8/5. The labour involved, attending the fire, etc., cost 9/-. The firewood (6 cwts at 3/-) cost 18/-; depreciation of implements, 5/- and delivery to the factory 2/-, all making a gross total of £8 7s. 1d. The value of the pig at 12 stones dead weight allowing 106/- per cwt., worked out at £7 19s. 0d., showing a loss on the whole transaction of 8/1. These costings have been carefully prepared and I give them to the Seanad for what they are worth. I should be glad to hear some criticism on them if any can be offered.

I think we can claim a very sympathetic hearing for this motion on the grounds that have been so eloquently put forward by Senator Baxter. Pig production is a great industry. There is not too much capital expenditure on it, but pigs need great attention, and especially in the farrowing periods you require exceptional loyalty from your staffs. You can only get that by treating with goodwill those on whose loyalty you rely. I have experience of a forge where the maintenance of three pigs always provided the fire. You would always find the pigs' pot on the fire at 6 o'clock in the evening. I am afraid the operations of the Bacon Board do not permit of that industry being pursued now. I hear general comments in my own county and right across the Border, Monaghan, Cavan and North Louth, that this board should be abolished, and that we should aim at a wider scheme.

Mr. Counihan

The first question the Minister should consider is whether we are in a position to produce sufficient bacon to meet our home requirements. I believe we are, but I am positively certain that the present prices fixed by the Bacon Board are not sufficient to pay the cost of production, and that is one of the principal reasons why we have not sufficient pigs or bacon in the country at the present time. When considering this question, we should remember that we are going through a period of emergency. We should ask ourselves at the same time whether we can afford to use, for the purpose of producing more pigs, the food which may be essential for our human population.

I believe there is sufficient food in the country to produce more pigs. As Senator Baxter has pointed out, there is a certain amount of food going waste which would be put into the production of bacon if the price were sufficient to meet the general cost of production. The bacon factories, and the Pigs and Bacon Board which played into their hands, are to my mind responsible for the reduction of our pig population. As long as I can remember, it has been the aim of the bacon factories to wipe out competition, to wipe out the pig fairs and the pig dealers, and to get the pigs direct from the producers. They have now practically succeeded in accomplishing that end with the help of the bacon board. Although their plans over a number of years have produced very big profits for the bacon factories, I think a good deal of them realise now that if there had been no alteration in the system, if there had been no bacon board, it would have been better for themselves and for the country as a whole. Our pigs and bacon were always able to meet any competition and always commanded a better price in the British market than exports from any other country. In 1938, we exported bacon and pork to the value of about £2,500,000, and now we have not got enough to meet our own requirements.

Senator Baxter mentioned the prices in the Dublin market yesterday. I was in the Dublin market myself and sold some pigs there, and I should like an explanation from the Minister as to the reason for the difference between the bacon board's price for pigs delivered to the factories and the price paid for live pigs at the fairs and markets, particularly in the Dublin market yesterday. The prices in the Dublin market in most cases were from £1 to 50/—in some cases a good deal more —per cwt. dead weight higher than the bacon board's price. The bacon board's present prices are as follows: For class 1, 106/-; for class 2, 100/-; for class 3, 80/-; and for class 4, 60/-. The prices in the Dublin market yesterday were from 126/- to 132/- for bacon pigs; for class 3, for which the bacon curers' price is 80/- per cwt. dead-weight, the price was practically 130/- in the Dublin market yesterday. In addition, the producer who sent the pigs to the factory would have to pay all the cost of transport, or most of it at all events. He would have to pay a certain amount for insurance, and if there was even a whip mark there would be 4/6 stopped. As I said, the price in the Dublin market yesterday for that class of pig was 130/-, and they paid all the transport and commission. It is difficult to understand that, when one considers that the price of bacon is controlled.

I was asking some of the agents of the factories how the factories could afford to pay 130/-. The explanation I got was that more than half the pigs supplied to the factories came directly from the producer, and that they paid only the Bacon Commission's price for those pigs. As they had not sufficient, they sent out their agents and buyers to buy at any price, so that in some cases the price is as much as £2 or £3 per pig more than the bacon curers' price. As an instance, I may say that I sold a sow in the Dublin market yesterday; the Bacon Commission's price for that sow would be 45/- per cwt. live weight. That sow weighed slightly over 4½ cwts. and the price I got was £18. At the Bacon Commission's price for delivery to the factory I would have got slightly over £9. That requires some explanation. It is an extraordinary fact that those things can occur, and that the bacon people can get away with it.

What remedy can one suggest to the Minister to get over this difficulty? We are in an emergency and, as Senator McGee pointed out, it does not matter to a person going into a shop for a rasher whether the pig off which the rasher comes be of the 80/- or the 105/- class; the price is practically the same. We are not producing for export; we are not producing even sufficient for our own requirements. I suggest to the Minister that he urge the Bacon Board to fix a uniform price for all pigs at present. It will be an economy to do that because it will take less food to produce more bacon and better pigs in the later than it will in the earlier stages of fattening. We will save in that way. When we are not producing for export, we should not be so particular about keeping up the reputation of the bacon from our factories. I should not make a uniform price for sows, the price of which goes up and down according to demand. The price for heavy pigs should be raised, since they are making 128/- and 130/- in the open market at present. Senator Baxter says that there is plenty of food in the country. I did not like to hear the Senator say that the Cavan farmers were throwing their potatoes into the ditches. That comes badly from a Cavan farmer.

Mr. Baxter

I do not think that I said that.

Mr. Counihan

They should find some means of transferring them to a farmer with pigs, if they have not pigs themselves. A certain amount of food in the country will be used to produce bacon if the producers are able to realise the cost of production. Farmers have got such a scalding from the Bacon Board and the bacon merchants for the past two years that, I think, if we were to get proper statistics of the pig population, it would be very much down. People are getting more and more urban. Near my home, where we all produce a fair number of pigs, there is not a boar within eight miles of the place. That will hamper and retard the production of pigs. It is a hardship to have to send a pig eight miles to a boar. It is not so much the food as the price which has operated to cut down production. I hope the Minister will consider the one suggestion I have made—that of having a uniform price for all pigs, at least during the emergency.

Dr. Doyle

In order to establish to the satisfaction of the House that there is something wrong with pig production, I propose to read a circular letter sent out by a well-known factory about a week ago. It is dated June 6, 1942, and is as follows:—

"Restriction on Bacon Supplies. Dear Sir or Madam: We regret that, owing to a considerable depletion of bacon stocks consequent on the decline in pig production, we are compelled to restrict bacon sales on and from Monday, June 8th, 1942, to a maximum of 25 per cent. of normal supplies. While we are not in a position to guarantee that even this restricted supply will be available during the coming months, we assure you that we will do everything possible to ensure that you receive your fair share of available supplies, but, pending our further advice, you will please regard the quota of 25 per cent. as being the maximum available."

That is from a well-known bacon factory which used to kill 1,000 pigs a week in the peak period. Their killings used to amount to 50,000 pigs a year. Now, they are reduced to 200 pigs a week, or less. That circular comes from the Roscrea Bacon Factory, and it is more eloquent than anything that could be said with regard to what is happening the pig industry. All our local industries have been shaken, if they are not dying. The milk and butter industry has been affected, and now it is the turn of the pigs. I should like to remind the Minister of the old nursery rhyme: "Humpty Dumpty sat on the Wall". That is true to life, and constitutes real philosophy. You can more easily destroy an industry than you can build it up.

The Fianna Fáil Party had an inferiority complex about the production of extra wheat. They concentrated on that single item, to the neglect of other things. Instead of having "one cow, one sow and one acre, under the plough," they concentrated on additional wheat, to the neglect of the other two items. By means of the radio, the personality of Ministers and in other ways, they entered on a campaign for the growing of more wheat lest we starve, as if this country were not able to produce for three times our population. They concentrated on this one item, with the result that the other industries are dying. The pig industry, as well as the milk and butter industry, is perishing. I suggest that the Minister should increase the price of pigs. He should make the price, at least, remunerative and all restrictions with regard to weight should go by the board. There should be no such thing, from the point of view of price, as the 16 stone pig. There should be no cut in price up to 20 stone.

Mr. Hawkins

There are a few points which I should like to make, though I am not a farmer. Workers in the towns are, however, interested in pig production and, particularly, in the bacon side of the industry. We heard that the chief cause of the decline of the pig population is the low price given to the farmer in recent months. I do not think that is the case. I have been discussing this, particularly with a neighbour who had been in pig production in a big way. During recent months he has gone out of pig production because he was in it in what we term "the new method." It was not the old method of the country house, of boiling potatoes and other foodstuffs. His pigs were fed from the bag on imported meal and with very little trouble. Shortly after the war began, meal became unobtainable with the result that he has practically gone out of production now. He had no tillage, and because he did not go in for tillage he cannot produce pigs on his own land. I believe that is the case in more than one area and that it is one of the main causes of the decline in the pig population and not the price. This man turned out a large number of pigs every month and he said he would be quite satisfied if he had the meal to produce pigs at present prices. Another aspect of the question is that if we increase the price of pigs or increase our pig production, we must ask ourselves if we have the food to feed the extra pigs. While the war lasts, we must see if the food is there before we can think of increasing production. If it is there, we all know that it is the easiest thing in the world to increase the pig population.

Little as we know about farming, we know that we cannot encourage pig production on peace-time lines. The only people who can do that are the farmers who grow enough food on their own land. We heard statements that large quantities of potatoes are going to waste. Some losses are quite natural at this time of the year, but I fail to see where the surplus of potatoes is. It might be possible in some years that there would be some potatoes left over, but I very much doubt if there is the large amount suggested. We heard of thousands of tons of turf being left over in different parts of the country, but when that is investigated it is found that 1,000 tons turn into five or six tons. The situation with regard to potatoes is probably the same.

It might be well during the emergency to drop the grading system. As Senator McGee has pointed out, and as housewives know, especially those who have to buy in small quantities, the grade at which the pig was bought does not affect the price of bacon. It is the same price no matter what the grade.

Another suggestion is that, now that we have heard that there is a serious decline in the pig population and a serious shortage of bacon in some places, the Minister and the Government should immediately set about rationing bacon, so that those who have very little money and who cannot buy large quantities would have a chance of getting a share while it lasts.

Peadar Mac Fhionnlaoich

Sílim go bhfuil luach an bhagúin ró-árd anois dos na daoine bochta, don lucht oibre agus do mhuinntear na cathrach. Chuala mé na figiúiri do thug an Seanadóir Baxter. Dubhairt sé go luigheann luach na muc ar an gcostas freastail. Ní thuigim conus a thagann costas tógála isteach sa scéal, mar níl mórán costas ar mhuca do thógáil. Deir an Seanadóir go bhfuil árdú costas ar an mbiadh—prátaí, bláthach agus mar sin—chun na muca do chothú. Nach bhfuil rudaí eile go dtig leis na muca teacht i dtír air, agus nach bhfuil úsáid ró-mhór taobh amuigh de sin jonnta? Níl mórán costais annsin le muca do chothú. Tá daidín den obair san bhfreastal. Má chuireann tú tuarastail ann, thar an obair, i gcoinne sin, beidh bille measardha mór ag dul ar daoine freastail ar na muc. Ni hiad na fir a thugadh aire dos na muca fadó, ach níl a fhios agam an bhfuil an scéal mar sin anois. Is dócha go bhfuil sé mar sin go fóill. Nuair a bhíonn teaghlach ag feirmeoir, ingeanacha óga agus buachaillí óga agus bean an tighe, ní hé an fear fhéin nó a chuid mac, má tá siad fásta ina fheara, a bheireas aire dos na muca, ach na cailíní agus bean an tighe. Bhéadh sé deacair tuarastal macánta do chur ar a gcuid saothair. Ar aon chuma, níl sé níos aoirde muca do thógáil nó do fhreastal anois ná bhí sé uair ar bith eile, taobh amuigh de cheist an bhídh.

Bhí faisiún annseo go dtugtaí min bhuidhe dos na muca. Níl sin le fagháil anois, ach mara bhfuil, nach bhfuil fuighleach maith prátaí agus coirce ann fá láthair, agus nach bhfuil sé an-fhursta é sin do mhéadú agus scata muca do bheith ann?

Tá luach na muc i gcomhnuidhe ag dul suas. Is cuimhin liom-sa, nuair bhí mé óg, tamall fada ó shoin, nuair a mharbhaimís muc, raghainn le m'athair ar thrucaill go dtí Doire Life —deich míle agus fiche—agus bhímís sásta le 45/- ar an muc mharbh. Níl an scéal céadna ann anois. Tá an praghas ag léimint, ach tá an léim ag dul ró-árd, agus ba cheart stop do chur leis. D'fhéadfadh feirmeoirí cuid mhaith airgid d'fhagháil ar mhuca ar an mbealach seo. Má tá an praghas ag dul síos, níl sé ag dul síos ach go sealadach, agus ba cheart dúinn fanacht go bhfeicimíd. Bhí sé daor le cúpla bliadhain anois. Bhí rud greannmhar eile ann—go rabhamar ag tabhairt deontasaí dos na Sasanaigh le na muca do cheannach uainn. Anois, nuair atá stad le sin, níl ár ndóthain againn fhéin. Sílim gur rud sealadach é sin, agus go dtiocfaidh ciall dos na feirmeoirí agus go mbeidh níos mó muc againn ar ball, gan an luach bheith ró-árd. Tá sé ró-árd anois.

Micheál Ó hAodha

Nach ón Rialtas a theastuigheann an ciall.

Peadar Mac Fhionnlaich

Bhí an bágún ar an bhfeoil is saoire ins an dtír, agus ba bagún feoil on choiteantaigh. Ach anois is daoire an mhuicfheoil ná caoirfheoil nó mairtfheoil. Mara bhfuil teacht isteach measardha maith acu, ní féidir le daoine an fheoil sin do bhlaiseadh. Mar sin, tá mise in aghaidh an luach d'árdú.

Sitting suspended at 6.10 p.m. and resumed at 7 p.m.

Mr. O'Callaghan

I have a good deal of sympathy with the motion, and consider it very praiseworthy on the part of Senators Baxter and McGee to help the pig industry, which is now at a very low ebb. The decline of the pig industry cannot be laid at the door of the Minister. The Minister and his Department have been pressing forward the tillage policy with all the force they could command, for a number of years. If that policy had been put into practice there would be no decline in the pig industry, and there would be no wail about a scarcity of human food. My difficulty about the motion is that one reads in the Press of people being taken into court and fined for feeding food for human beings to animals, and one also reads of mills being closed down for some misbehaviour. I am sure no member of this House, or nobody outside it, would subscribe to the practice of feeding pigs and starving human beings. The unhappy episode of the famine period in this country, when a Government allowed boat-loads of food to leave while the people were starving, must not be allowed to repeat itself. Senator Baxter referred to the danger of a shortage of fats, and consequent danger to the health of the public; but I understand that the milk production of the country is 4 per cent. higher than it was a year ago. If that is so, there is no danger of a shortage of fats. Bread and butter is the staple food of the people, and if there is enough butter to go around—and there will be if production is kept up—there is no danger of a fats shortage. Senator Baxter also referred to the wastage of potatoes in his part of the country. There is a great surplus of potatoes in the South of Ireland, but I am sure none of them will go to waste; for people who have not animals will sell those potatoes to others, and some progressive people are turning them into potato silage. I am sorry to hear that potatoes should be going to waste. It is good to learn from Senator McGee that in his part of the country potatoes are finding their way to the alcohol factories.

Suggestions have been made that the grading of pigs should be dropped, and with that I entirely agree. I would go further and say that the Bacon Board prices should also be dropped, and that the law of supply and demand should be allowed to regulate the price at least for some time. It would be no harm if that was given a trial, because some of the bacon factories are paying 116/-, although the controlled price is only 112/-. If the Bacon Board prices were dropped perhaps the returns would go a little higher. If I could be assured by the movers of the motion that no food for humans would be fed to pigs I would be with them. We have barely enough bread to feed the people, and not enough oats for oatmeal. It would be no harm if this motion were allowed to stand over until we see what the harvest will be like. I believe it will be a plentiful harvest, and if there is plenty of food for the people something then could be done to help to promote the pig industry.

Mr. Honan

It is rather strange that Senator O'Callaghan has said almost everything that I intended to say, and my excuse for interfering in the debate at all is that I come from a county where the pig industry is one of the staple industries, not in the mass production sense, but supported by the cottier and the small farmer. Even in small towns and villages people with accommodation keep a pig or two, so that anything that would help the industry would be very welcome. We would be pleased to support the motion if no other considerations existed. I am quite aware that during the spring, wheat and wheaten flour were fed extensively to pigs, while many poor people in a small wheat-producing county like Clare were often for a week or ten days without bread. If we were sure that these circumstances would not arise again, and that there was sufficient food for our people, especially for the poor, then we would be pleased to do everything possible to encourage the pig industry.

It is very strange that so much complaint should be made as to the price of bacon, because bacon is now the one luxury food of the provision store. Apart from those in good circumstances, nobody can really afford to eat bacon at the present time. It is the dearest food, and it is extraordinary that we should hear so much complaints as to the price. I do not want to prolong the debate further than to say that the motion will have my entire sympathy, provided the feeding of pigs does not in any way interfere with the feeding of the human population.

Mr. O'Dwyer

I agree with the movers of the motion that it would be well to increase the price of bacon. I have followed very carefully Senator Baxter's figures regarding the decline in the pig population. I agree that it is a disaster of the first magnitude that the pig population should have declined by practically 50 per cent. with resultant unemployment in bacon factories, shortage of bacon, and the many other evils that follow from that development. At the same time, I am convinced that the Minister for Agriculture is not responsible for the decline. If we face facts fairly, we must recognise that the real reason why the pig population has fallen is that there was not sufficient food grown to carry on the industry and that the pig population was mainly maintained on imported foods. Up to last year there were some imports but the situation which we had at the end of last year and the beginning of this year was that there was certainly not sufficient food to maintain 1,500,000 pigs as well as the human population. Either one or the other had to go short. It is a fact that the pig population could have been maintained at a high price during the last five or six months, but it would have involved an acute shortage of food for human beings. Everybody regrets that there should be a shortage of bacon, a reduction of employment in the bacon factories and consequent dislocation. It is better that it should be so, however, than that there should be a shortage of food for the human population.

I am afraid that a great deal of wheat has been fed to pigs. I have to agree with Senator Honan that there must have been an extensive feeding of wheat to pigs. Undoubtedly the reason was that, in many cases, no other feeding stuffs were available and poor people used the only feeding stuffs they had at hand but I think that a number of large feeders also bought wheat at high prices and fed it to pigs because it was the cheapest food they could get. In any case it is clear that there was not sufficient food to maintain the pig population up to its former standard and it had to decline.

I would have had some hesitation in supporting this motion some months ago but the situation is somewhat different at present. We are approaching the harvest and I feel sure that there has been a great increase in tillage this year. I feel confident, if the harvest is good, that there will be sufficient food not alone for the human population but also to provide for an increased animal population. On that account, I would urge on the Minister to increase the price of bacon because if we allowed the bacon industry to decline altogether, it would have very grave consequences. At the close of the war or even before the war has concluded, there may be a great demand for bacon. Undoubtedly, if we can produce sufficient food at home to increase the pig population, it would be of great advantage to this country if we could revive the exports of bacon. It may not be so easy to revive pig production if we allow it to disappear altogether. As to the suggestion of Senator Hawkins that bacon should be rationed, I am afraid it will be necessary to take some action of that kind though I fear it will be very difficult to enforce rationing. I do not think, however, that the situation can become so desperate because there will be at all times a surplus of beef and mutton so that there will not be a meat shortage though undoubtedly it would be much better if we could be assured of a sufficient supply of bacon to meet all demands.

I should like to take advantage of the debate on this motion to point out to the Minister that it would be very desirable to avail of the present opportunity to implement the findings of the Minority Report of the Agricultural Commission which recommended that the bacon factories should be run on co-operative lines as they are in Denmark. It would be a great advantage if the bacon industry were developed on those lines. It can never be adequately developed on the lines of private ownership any more than the dairy industry. I would suggest that the Minister should take advantage of the present opportunity to ascertain whether it would not be possible to implement the recommendations in that report. As I say, I think it desirable that the price of bacon should be increased, particularly when that increase can be given at the present time without any danger to the community.

Professor Johnston

I should like to discuss this question of pig production from the broadest point of view as part of our general live-stock production, which is the dominant part of our total agricultural production, but perhaps I had better confine myself as strictly as possible to the question of pigs. I would say that the problem is dominated by two factors under present conditions, and one of them is the question of what the Americans call the feed ratio, the ratio between the value of the raw material fed to pigs and the value of the finished product. The other is the price policy practised by our neighbour with regard to the export of our surplus pig products. With regard to the first, I should like to take this opportunity of removing certain misapprehensions which seem to have crept into the Minister's mind with regard to some remarks I made about ratios on the last occasion when we were debating another matter. It was then a question of the ratio between the value of oats as a feed for fat cattle and the value of fat cattle. I should like the Minister to believe that I was not guilty of any real inconsistency, although on a superficial interpretation of my remarks on that occasion, it might appear that I was guilty of some slight inconsistency.

I was thinking of two different sets of circumstances, and the motion about wheat did cover two different sets of circumstances, the circumstances associated with the present emergency and the circumstances that we might look forward to in the post-war era, if the war ever comes to an end. With reference to the existing emergency, I felt and believe that the price of oats is at an irreducible minimum; in fact, I believe that the officially fixed price of oats no longer corresponds to the real value of oats, and that that price will have to be raised somewhat if it is going to correspond to the reality of the value of oats in the minds of the people who grow it. That being so, and it being desirable from my point of view that the ratio between the value of oats and the value of beef should be raised, then to my mind there was only one way in which that ratio could be raised, and that was by the British being persuaded to give a better price for our fat cattle. The whole moral of my remarks about ratios in that connection was that every effort should be made to persuade the British to raise the price of our fat cattle. I considered that the ratio was wrong because the price of beef was too low, not because the price of oats was too high.

On the other hand, in connection with the post-war era, I thought it probable that, when the world surplus of cereal products now piling up in overseas countries—and by the way the amount of that surplus at 40,000,000 tons would be enough to feed the whole population of Europe in the first 12 months after the war was over, even if not a single blade of wheat were grown in Europe during that 12 months —is once more available for us and other European countries, the world price of cereal products is bound to come down, and, therefore, from our point of view, the ratio between the value of cereal products, in which we take only a minor interest, and the value of live-stock products, in which we have a vital interest, will be best if the price of cereal products is allowed to fall. That was why I advocated allowing the price of cereal products to fall to its natural level, in the interests of our extensive live-stock producing industry in the post-war era.

With regard to the way in which our pig policy is dominated by the British price policy, I was amazed to read in the Official Reports of the Dáil that in 1940 we had a quota for the export of 500,000 cwts. of bacon to the British market, at, I think, 133/- per cwt., and in the circumstances then existing we had more than 500,000 cwts. of bacon to export. When it was put up to the British Ministry of Food that they should take the additional amount, in fact take all we could give them, they agreed as a very great favour to take it, but not at the price of 133/- per cwt. but at the ruinous price of ninety something shillings per cwt. If that is the real attitude of the British Ministry of Food to our efforts to feed the British people, who are not over well-fed at present, I think it seems fair to say that, while I hope and believe that the British will emerge victorious from their present ordeal, the British Ministry of Food conveys the impression that they would rather lose the war than win it with the help of food from Eire. Their price policy dominates the value of our export pig products, and the value of our export pig products tends to dominate the value of our pig products in the home market when there is a surplus for export. That export price has been so disastrously inadequate to the cost of production in recent months and years that it has in fact compelled our pig producers to reduce the quantity of pigs below even the measure of what the home market would absorb, although, if they could only have hit the right mark, they would have been safe in producing at least enough for the consumption of the home market. In fact, we must have that alternation between a surplus and low prices, and a scarcity and a very high price, so long as we have this unsatisfactory relationship with the British Ministry of Food in regard to the export price for our bacon products. If we could only establish a thorough understanding with the British that they would take over our pigs at the same sort of price as they pay our Northern Ireland neighbours for the pigs they produce, we could go ahead and produce pigs; we would have some export surplus, and we would certainly have enough for our own market, but, in the present situation, we are likely to suffer from alternating periods of glut and scarcity from the point of view of the home market, entirely because of this unsatisfactory relationship with the British export market.

I said that the question of the ratio between the cost of the raw material and the value of the finished pig affects the question of pig production in much the same way as it affects the question of producing fat cattle in the stalls by winter feeding. There are two kinds of pig production. One might be described as the casual or by-product producing of pigs with surplus produce of the farm or the kitchen which could not find any other outlet, and in fact would be worthless unless turned into pigs. The other and more systematic production of pigs generally depends on the use of cereal products in a large scale way for turning a large quantity of pigs, in a given producing unit, into bacon. The systematic production of pigs, that is the production of pigs on anything like a large scale, depends absolutely on the ratio between the value of the cereal products and the value of the finished bacon, but even the casual production of pigs is affected to some extent by that ratio, though the smaller the element of bought food or cereal product which is necessary to mix with the other available rations for the pigs the less the pig producer is affected by that consideration in his cost of producing pigs.

Considering first the systematic production of pigs, using mainly cereal products as raw material, the basic fact seems to be—as given on page 98 of the Report of the Pig Industry Tribunal, which reported about eight years ago—that it takes 4.17 lbs. of a meal ration on the average to produce one lb. of bacon pig, live weight. The costs of producing pigs in that kind of way amount to 85 per cent. of the total cost of producing a pig, and the other costs are said to average 5/5 per cwt. live weight of the pig. If it takes over 4 lbs. of meal to produce 1 lb. of bacon pig, live weight, and those other elements must be counted in too, it is sufficient to say that, for systematic pig production, the price of the pig live weight must be at least five times the price per cwt. of the meal ration being fed to produce pigs in that systematic, large scale way. What are the facts about those prices on which the ratio depends? I understand that a meal ration suitable for pig feeding can be bought for about 24/- per cwt., when it can be bought at all. It is extremely difficult to buy such a ration; it is a compliment to get it. If we are to base the value of finished pigs on a meal ration at 24/- per cwt., then the price of pigs would have to be at least £6 per cwt. live weight to make it possible to produce pigs mainly fed on meal rations at that price.

I was amazed to find that the actual prices, live weight, which had been current in the home market during the past year or two years were nothing like 120/- live weight. They have ranged well below 100/- per cwt., live weight. Consequently, I am not surprised to find that there has been a considerable reduction in the total production of pigs. The amazing thing is that any pigs still continue to be produced. While the ratio between the cost of cereal raw materials and the value of the finished pig is quite unfavourable to any systematic production of pigs by us, using cereal products as our principal raw material, it is worth while pointing out that overseas —in America—the opposite situation exists. As I pointed out on a former occasion, there is a terrific glut of cereal products there, including what we call Indian meal and what they call corn. They cannot get transport to bring these cereal products to Britain under present conditions in adequate amounts and, consequently, the price of Indian corn in America, as compared with the price of hog, as they call it, is very favourable to the production of bacon in that country. In our country, the ratio between the value of the meal ration and the value of the live pig is, probably, less than four to one, but, in their case, the ratio between these two values is about eight to one. 100 lbs. of live hog has the same value as 800 lbs. of Indian corn.

That being so, under the present quite abnormal conditions they have in that country a terrific incentive greatly to extend the production of bacon. They are extending it and they are exporting increasing quantities of that bacon to the British market for many reasons, one of the dominant reasons being that greater value is obtained for a given cubic capacity of shipping space if you use it to contain bacon pig rather than Indian meal or the raw material for making pigs. Under these temporary conditions and with that tremendous advantage in favour of the overseas pig producer on a large scale, we cannot compete with the U.S.A. in producing pigs for the British market. It follows that we should abandon any attempt to extend on any large scale the systematic production of pigs, using meal rations. If necessary, we should go out of the export business completely unless we can establish a satisfactory understanding with our British neighbours with regard to the price at which they are prepared to take over our surplus pigs. Nevertheless, pig production is a very important element in our total agricultural economy and it must be maintained, for the home market at any rate, especially during the present emergency.

It must be maintained, too, in a condition in which it can readily expand as soon as the war is over. When the war is over and cereal raw materials become again available in quantity and at lower prices, it will, I think, be possible to produce bacon for export at a price which will enable us to compete with any source of supply. The forces which have temporarily made pig production on a large scale more economic in the U.S.A. will be reversed and pig production in our country will become more economic and profitable in the immediate post-war period. Meanwhile, what we have to do is to maintain the efficiency of our breeding stocks in the pig industry while, at the same time, ensuring an adequate supply for the home market and, if possible, producing a surplus for the British market, if they will pay us an adequate price for that surplus.

To ensure that adequate supply for the home market, I think that the principle of a guaranteed price, fixed for a definite period which should be at least six months ahead, should be adopted and the State should take the risk of that guaranteed price leading to the production of more pigs than the home market will absorb. If we should have a surplus of pigs and the British will not pay us an adequate price for that surplus, we might make it publicly known to our American neighbours that we are quite willing to sell these surplus pigs to them for handing over, if they so desire, under the lease-lend arrangement, to Britain. From their point of view, it should not make any difference whether the bacon with which they supply the British crosses the Atlantic or is merely sent across the Irish sea to Britain. We should not be afraid of producing a surplus of pigs, and if the British market does not choose to have that surplus that is their funeral.

As I said, there are two main aspects of pig production, the casual or by-product producing of pigs and the systematic, large-scale producing of pigs. The systematic large-scale producing of pigs is now an economic impossibility, but the casual by-product producing of pigs — feeding them on the by-products of general farming — still remains an economic possibility and, in almost any conceivable circumstances, it will be worth while to have at least a few hundred thousand pigs in the country. At the same time we are presented with a problem.

That is can we cast about and find some cheaper raw materials for the producing of bacon which will serve our present purposes during the emergency and which, even in normal peace times, might enable us to produce a certain number of pigs more cheaply than if we resorted to the old-fashioned method of feeding them mainly, on Indian meal? The native raw materials for the production of pigs are skim milk and potatoes. A proper combination of potatoes and skim milk will go a long way towards providing a complete ration for a growing pig. Very little meal will be needed if you have an adequate supply of potatoes and skim milk on the farm. The tragedy of our agricultural practice is that, in the time of the year in which we have lots of skim milk about the farm, we have no potatoes and, in the time of the year when we have lots of field potatoes about the farm, we have not got the skim milk. As every student of Irish agriculture knows, the country flows with skim milk—I speak now of the dairying regions—between the months of April and November, while there is hardly a drop of skim milk to be got between November and April.

On the other hand, the potato harvest comes in about the month of October. The potatoes are in fine form for feeding to live stock up to about the following February or March. Then they begin to sprout and lose their feed value and they are practically useless precisely at the time of year when they would be most desirable if only they could be married to an available surplus of skim milk. Because of that lack of coincidence in time between the availability of skim milk and of field potatoes, we have not got proper pig production on the ordinary, mixed farm, even in the dairying regions, which we would have if that desirable marriage between skim milk and potatoes could be accomplished.

The Department of Agriculture have leaflets recommending various developments in our agricultural practices which would help to solve this difficulty, and I would like to urge that these suggestions should be given all the attention they deserve, and that practical farmers everywhere should adopt one or other of the various ways in which modern science has managed to solve this problem of having skimmed milk and potatoes capable of feeding animals available all the year round. At all events, the theoretical solution of the problem of having some skimmed milk in the winter is to have the cows calving in the winter as well as in the spring, or to distribute the calving more equally between autumn and spring, and to feed the cattle in the winter time with a cheap native food which will keep up the milk supply during the winter.

As everyone who has tried it knows, the answer to that question is grass silage properly made. Grass silage alone, one of the cheapest things made on any farm, will enable a cow to give two or more gallons of milk, and it is the most inexpensive raw material for milk production that can be found. If our farmers produced more milk in the winter, they would have more skim milk at a time when potatoes are also available for pig feeding. To the main problem of having potatoes available for pig feeding in the time of the year when skim milk is very scarce, or is not available in considerable quantity, the answer is on the same lines; extend the use of what is called potato silage, which is made by boiling or steaming the potatoes, and packing them tightly into a kind of smooth, rounded receptacle rather like an ordinary bath—anything of that kind with rounded corners will do. If they are boiled and stamped into this kind of receptacle, they will keep indefinitely in that form, and will constitute a readily available form of food which can be fed to live stock for months afterwards. In those ways, even though we cannot get meal, surely we could maintain a certain minimum of pig production, and perhaps expand that minimum beyond the needs of the home market? I should expect to have a certain surplus for export which I hope our neighbours will have the sense to buy from us at an adequate price.

I would like to re-emphasise a suggestion I made the other day which was not favourably received by the Minister. I pointed out to him that we could have bran for pig feeding and other uses, if we reverted to the 85 per cent. extraction of flour instead of continuing our present practice of 100 per cent. extraction.

I told him, not on my own authority, but on the authority of one of my professional colleagues who happens to be an expert in the science of dietetics, that we would lose nothing in terms of human food by reverting to the 85 per cent. extraction, because that 15 per cent. we are forced to consume is not capable of being digested in the human stomach. On that point the Minister said:—

"I do not think that is right. I think the human being is capable of digesting just as much as the pig or the chicken, so that whatever one cannot digest the other cannot digest."

Will the Minister tell us that because certain animals are able to digest grass and thistles the human stomach is equally able to digest grass and thistles? Obviously not. Obviously there are certain raw materials which cannot become available for human digestion until they have been eaten by animals and the animals in turn become human food. I am sure that that applies also to the 15 per cent. of the wheat crop which the animals can digest and we cannot. The Minister, in his career as a successful politician, has doubtless had occasion to hand out chicken feed to his followers, and I might say to him in this particular matter that he is handing out not only chicken feed but pig feed and expecting human beings to digest it. I, for one, do not digest it, either in the intellectual or the physical sense. There is another aspect of this compulsory absorption of bran now imposed on us. The phytic acid element in the wheat has the effect of combining with the lime in the human system to precipitate it, and consequently a process of decalcification is going on in all our bodies which is injurious to the growth of bone and destructive to the health of the teeth. It may be a coincidence, but in the last three months I lost on the average one tooth a month, which simply dropped out. That may be the Minister's successful scheme for drawing the teeth of a national opposition to his policies!

Mr. Quirke

It would be more serious if you grew three extra!

Professor Johnston

It may be a most desirable scheme from that point of view, but can it be regarded as such from the public health point of view? I believe it would be an excellent idea from the point of view of increasing the food supply of the animal population if we got back to 85 per cent. extraction, and it would make no real difference to the amount of human food available. I know there is a certain scarcity of bread, but if bread is scarce, then by all means ration bread, but for God's sake give us bread—do not ram pig feeding down our throats.

Mr. Quirke

Is it not the Senator's point that if we do not go back to the 85 per cent. extraction immediately we will have no teeth to eat the bacon?

Mr. O'Donovan

Many of the items I intended to raise have been covered by other speakers but, as Senator Johnston has just spoken, I would like to refer to his remarks as a terrific indictment of the statement made by Senator Baxter. His point regarding the maintenance of a milk supply in the winter time was referred to by me already in another debate on the question of winter dairying. On the other hand, he pointed out a method of storage of potatoes for feeding in the winter. Senator Baxter in his remarks referred to thousands of tons of potatoes being wasted, and also to a wastage of skimmed milk. Obviously the cure for that wastage is to have the milk all the year round, and to save the potatoes by this system of ensilage and have the two for pig feeding simultaneously. Therefore, Senator Johnston's remarks are an indictment of the case as put forward by Senator Baxter. There is the other remaining factor, the production of a concentrate to finish stock. To my mind, the big difficulty that existed last year is that we did not do what Senator Baxter suggested in his motion—we did not obtain maximum productivity from the land. If we had grown more barley and oats and, in the feeding of concentrates to the pigs, utilised our skim milk and utilised our potatoes, we would have been able to produce more pigs.

That was not done, unfortunately. On the other hand, the recorded price for oats was not maintained. It was sold at a far higher price than the controlled price and people did feed wheat to pigs as an alternative. I presume that the Minister's advisers recommended, as a means of counteracting the feeding of wheat to animals, a reduction in the price. I fancy that the real cause of the reduction of the price of bacon was the fact that it had to be made uneconomic to feed wheat to animals to produce bacon. The sad part of it is that at present there is a scarcity of bacon, and I presume that it will be more scarce in the coming months. In the city at present, even though bacon is dear, it is bought extensively, whenever possible, as cooked ham, owing to the gas restrictions, as it is easily taken home and eaten, without having to be cooked, when no gas supply is available for cooking any food. Therefore, it is very important that a supply of bacon be available in the city. I am afraid it will not be available, and that forces me to the opinion that it must be rationed in order to provide equal distribution, since the price is so high.

Mr. Baxter

Would the Senator say what the price is?

Mr. O'Donovan

It is up to 2/8 per lb. I know that the slaughter of beef and mutton animals at present is low. That produces an increased demand for pig products—sausages and bacon— much of which is sought as cooked products. Unfortunately, Senator Baxter tried to justify the feeding of wheat to pigs, by saying that we had the food as bacon if we did not eat it as wheat.

Mr. Baxter

I hope I said nothing of the kind. If I did, I did not mean it. That is something I have never stood for anywhere. If the Senator understood that from what I said, may I say I meant no such thing and I do not want to be misrepresented.

Mr. O'Donovan

I am glad the Senator takes that view. My impression was that he said that Senators seemed to forget that we eat the wheat as bacon if we do not eat it as wheat. If that is found on the records, I am quite prepared to take Senator Baxter's explanation that he did not mean to justify in any way the feeding of wheat to animals while the human subject needs it so much in the form of wheat. The Senator seemed to be obsessed with the idea of the Bacon Commission's control.

I understand that the Bacon Commission was appointed to maintain a stabilised price from time to time, so that the producer would know what he was to get and so that the price would be announced for a certain period. I think that has obtained for the years during which, I think it was Senator McGee said, he went out of pig production, though the prices were increasing. It was really only when it came to the period when it had to be made uneconomic for people to feed grain or wheat to pigs that prices were low. That was in 1942. Senator Baxter did point out some figures which seemed unexplainable, but probably the Minister will know better than any of us if such a thing has occurred. The Senator mentioned a time when there were two grades and prices—112/- and 107/-. He said that in a short time, when the system was changed back to the three grades, the lowest figure was 95/-, and that sufficient notice had not been given. I cannot speak on that point now, but there must be some reason which was in the interests of the producers and the country in general. When figures are quoted here as showing a drop of 15/- in the deadweight price of pigs, it seems unjustifiable, but there must be some other reason that I do not know of. The price was being graded up all the time until we came to the period when wheat as bacon had to be made uneconomic.

The motion proposes that production should be sufficient for the home market. As Senator Johnston mentioned, the big trouble was that in 1940 there were up to 1,102,000 pigs slaughtered at the factories, and in 1941, due to the fact that we could not get a sufficient price from the surplus bacon which we were exporting, the number of slaughtered animals dropped to 827,000. That shows that we were dependent on the foreign market, which would not purchase unless helped by a bounty from the people at home. Therefore, it was better to drop to a pig production which would maintain the home supplies. Now, unfortunately, we come to 1942 and we are definitely down and, seemingly, we will not have enough to maintain the home supplies. To my mind, the only solution is to produce enough barley and cereals other than wheat to feed the concentrate to the pigs, and also to adopt the suggestions which have been repeated before, of maintaining the potatoes and stock substitutes for feeding pigs in winter or summer. Senator Johnston has mentioned the production of milk in winter time and the production of insulin from potatoes to maintain the ration for pigs throughout the year. Otherwise we will be short of bacon.

I was glad to hear from Senator O'Callaghan an anticipation of a 4 per cent. increase in butter. That would safeguard us to some extent, as far as fats are concerned, but otherwise we will be short of fats in the coming winter. In 1941 there was a great increase in fats, due to an industry which blossomed up and faded out quickly—the pressed beef industry. There was a large amount of dripping when that was in its heyday. It was an industry that could not last very long, and when it collapsed the supply of fats collapsed as well, so we will be dependent entirely on the butter fat for the maintenance of fats during the coming winter. It is a good thing to anticipate an increase in the milk supplies and a consequent increase in butter for the coming winter. Last year's harvest was not as bountiful as was hoped for, but, on the other hand, it was not utilised in the manner in which it should have been. I hope there will be sufficient barley and oats and cereals, other than wheat, to maintain the pig population, and the production of ensilage to feed pigs during the winter. I should like to know what authority promulgated the idea of feeding our people on the 85 per cent. production rather than on the 100 per cent. I do not see that that is going to solve the problem of food for the people, and as one who was reared on practically 100 per cent. production, I can say that I have not lost all my teeth yet, and I think I am fairly fit physically. Doctors always maintained that brown bread was better than white bread, and I think that most of them would still maintain that belief. Personally, I do not agree with them if they say that brown bread is bad for human beings.

Mr. Tunney

My principal reason for opposing this motion is because there has been a stand-still order in operation, and if we put an increase on the price of bacon it is bound to react on the workers. I am entirely opposed to any increase in the cost of living of workers at the present time. I am surprised that any Senator could support a stand-still motion and yet bring forward a motion to increase the profits of any producers. Though I was reared among people who went in intensively for pig rearing, I feel that if there is a difficult period, those people should suffer in the same way as the workers have to suffer. Another reason is that if the price of bacon or pigs were to go up there would be more human foodstuffs given to pigs. I am surprised at Senator Johnston saying that he would give no pig feeding to human beings. Potatoes are a human food, and are also the principal diet for pigs. I am surprised at a man in his responsible position saying what he said about bread. It would be all right coming from somebody who did not understand.

Professor Johnston

It came from somebody who understands a good deal more about it than you or I.

Mr. Tunney

I am satisfied that our bread at the present time is good bread, and I hope we will be able to continue to give the people the same bread until the war is over. I congratulate the Government on being able to supply such a good quality bread to the people. Why should we increase the price of bacon on our own population while we are sending out the finest meat in the world, at scandalously bad prices, to feed other people? I feel that as long as we have such good mutton and beef for our own people, with plenty of potatoes and brown bread, there is no danger of hunger here, and that if the pig industry was to go down still further, though I represent the cottier, for whom I have sympathy in the present difficulties, I would prefer to see the few pounds that he would make out of rearing pigs lost so long as we can keep food for the people. I think the Government is doing the right thing, and I hope they will not change.

Mrs. Concannon

It seems to me that before the debate concludes a woman should contribute a few words to it and I will approach the subject from the point of view of the woman in the poor home in town and country. In the great majority of Irish homes at the moment the most drastically rationed article is money, and the present price of bacon makes it impossible for people with small earnings to enjoy that commodity. Therefore, if the effect of this motion is to increase the price of bacon to the consumer I think we should hesitate before we should pass it. In Dublin I found out to-day that the prices of bacon are 2/4, 2/6 and 2/8 per lb. That is too much.

Mr. Baxter

But the farmer is not getting 1/- per lb.

Mrs. Concannon

I am talking from the point of view of the consumer. Bacon is rationed in a most drastic way because the people cannot afford to buy it. It is food that has played a great part in Irish life, and people who know what cooking restrictions are with gas rationing will appreciate that in the poor homes bacon always was popular, not alone because it gave a savour to the potatoes, but because it was easy to cook. You could cook a rasher on a pan or boil a bit of bacon with cabbage, and you would not want a better meal. I would not ask for better than bacon and cabbage or a good rasher. It was easily baked even on a turf fire and that was why there was a great demand for bacon. It is very important for the health and comfort of the people and for the woman who looks after the feeding of her family that there should be a plentiful supply of bacon. Anything, therefore, that tends to produce it should be encouraged, but there should be some attempt not to allow the price to become prohibitive.

Senator Johnston in his most interesting and most instructive speech talked of the casual by-product production of pigs. I think that is a matter in which we might interest ourselves once again. It may be that factory production has its advantages but at the same time the custom which prevailed in the old days when a farmer produced and cured a pig for his own use and the poor neighbours all got part of it was a grand feature of rural life, and I do not see why it should not be revived. If the revival of rural life under the aegis of parish councils is successful, I think we should take a leaf from the book of our English neighbours who have been organising very extensively what they call "pig clubs". We need not call them pig clubs here but certainly some such organisation would serve a very useful purpose in country districts where at present there is so much waste of food. We are a very wasteful people, and some effort should be made to utilise in the production of pigs many of the foodstuffs that are at present going to waste. If the women of the country were actively interested, they would encourage their menfolk to produce the barley and oats which we are told in combination with skim milk and potatoes, are the best feeding stuffs for pigs. The whole question of pig production and the part it plays in our domestic economy is of the most vital importance. I am very glad on that account that we have had this debate, and I think we should thank Senator Baxter and Senator McGee for giving the House an opportunity of discussing this question and hearing so many points of view.

Mr. Cummins

It has always been the policy of the Labour Party, the small Party to which I belong, to ensure that the producer should get an equitable price for his products. When the question of increasing the price of butter came before the House, I voted against the proposal for the reason that butter is an almost indispensable article of food for the poorest people and raising the price would have the effect of removing it from the menu of the poor or the average wage earner. Different considerations apply in the case of bacon. Bacon seems to me to be on the point of extinction as an article of food in this country. It is not on the menu of the poor, the moderately poor or the middle-class person at the moment.

Butter is, and butter will I hope remain there. As a matter of fact at the moment one can practically get 2 lbs. of butter for the price of 1 lb. of cooked ham. I am told that the price of cooked ham at the moment ranges from 3/6 to 4/6 and I have heard of cases where even 6/- was demanded. That is not the case with butter. Butter is sold at the scheduled price and, in any event, 2 lbs. of butter are certainly more valuable than 1 lb. of ham. The great fear I have at the moment, however, is that the production of bacon will disappear altogether if some steps are not taken to ensure a more adequate return for the producer, and by the producer I mean not only the man who produces 30, 40 or 100 pigs, but the cottier who always looked upon the pig as the rentpayer, or as the poor man's savings bank, as some Senator described it. The pig is that still to some extent, but the cottier is going out of the rearing of pigs. Under present conditions, he feels that he is not getting a sufficient reward for the money and labour expended in feeding pigs. It is for that reason that I would support the demand for an increase in the price of bacon. The scarcity of bacon may not affect the poor at present, but it will affect them very seriously, in a short time, if there is a total cessation of bacon production. I was informed by a pig producer from Waterford recently, who usually kept as many as 50 or 60 pigs, that he had had to reduce his stock by at least one half. The same holds good in parts of West Cork, another area in which pigs were produced very extensively in the past.

I think the whole question of pig production in this country should be examined. It begins, as pointed out by Senator Johnston, with dairying and the production of milk. That, of course, is the basis of all farming, but it should be closely related to pig production and the fattening of pigs. The point made by Senator Johnston, I think, was a very important one. Lack of milk at a time when potatoes are plentiful is a tremendous drawback, and that that happens is due to the system of dairying followed in this country and the lack of winter feeding. I would say that to a large extent that want could be supplied by the preservation of green grass in its natural state as ensilage. Potatoes could be preserved in the same way in a simple manner, as pointed out by previous speakers. No elaborate plant or machinery is necessary for the production of potato silage.

For the cottier any simply constructed container would be sufficient to produce excellent potato silage possessing all the qualities of the original article. I think a planned scheme carried out by the boards of agriculture throughout the country to encourage such processes would help considerably in inducing the small farmer and the cottier to produce more pigs. I do not despair of a remedy for the disappearance of pig production or pig fattening altogether. If a system of winter dairying and the preservation of food in the form I suggested were encouraged, it would go a long way towards a solution of this problem.

I should not like it to go out from this House that people are losing their teeth because they are eating brown bread. I should not like anybody to think that the doctors were in league with the dentists in this matter. My humble opinion is that those who lost their teeth lost them because they did not get brown bread in the early stages of their life when they were growing teeth.

Mr. Quirke

Because they quit smoking.

Mr. Cummins

I do not think it should go out from any part of this House that brown bread is pig food and is dangerous to human health. I have yet to hear any authoritative pronouncement that a 95 per cent. extraction from wheat was better food than a cent. per cent. extraction. I think these are the only points I have to put forward. As I have said, I opposed an increase in the price of butter on the ground that an increase in price would mean its disappearance from the menu of the poor people but the same argument does not apply in this instance.

Minister for Agriculture (Dr. Ryan)

Various side issues have arisen in connection with this matter. I took some notes of the remarks of various Senators, and I think the best way to deal with them would be to take them in the order in which they were made. In the first place, Senator Baxter spoke about the supply of fats in the country. He quoted from figures given to the Dáil to the effect that 120,000 cwts. of margarine which we used to consume are no longer available. He added that we were also short of 60,000 cwts. of lard and 30,000 cwts. of dripping, etc. It is extremely hard to discuss these figures for various reasons, because at the time we had an unrestricted manufacture of these commodities, there was a very large export of lard and very little lard was used in the country at all. Most of it went out.

I do not know whether the same applied to tallow and suet, but I imagine there were some exports of these commodities too. Of course, there is now no export of any of these things. It is true that there is no margarine manufactured here now, but on the other hand, we are consuming as far as we can estimate, probably about 300,000 cwts. of butter more than we did pre-war. In that way we have made up for the shortage of fats in the form of animal fats such as lard and tallow and also for the deficiency of margarine by a very big increase in the consumption of butter. As things look so far this year, I think we shall have enough butter for our own needs, but I would not say that we shall have any more than that.

Senator Baxter made the point that farmers in Cavan—and, of course, naturally the same thing would apply in other parts of the country—have a considerable quantity of potatoes and skim milk, but that they have now no pigs to consume their products. I think that that fact is really an argument against quite a lot of the statements made by those in favour of the motion because those who supported the motion spoke of the difficulty of feeding pigs at the moment owing to the cost of feeding stuffs, and said that the person who does keep pigs must buy very dear food for them. In individual cases, there are farmers who have potatoes on hands and no pigs to feed them to, but in other cases, there were farmers with pigs on their hands who had to buy very dear food to give to these pigs. That is the reason they got out of pigs and now they are in the position of having very cheap food but no pigs. It is a very complex problem and those who advocated a return to pig production in this country made very little practical suggestions in this connection. The only suggestion was that we might increase the price. I think if figures show anything, they indicate that that would absolutely have no influence unless other things were right at the same time.

Senator Baxter said that the reduction in the number of pigs was deliberate policy. I do not know what he meant by that. The Pigs and Bacon Commission were set up to regulate prices amongst other things. Under the Act, they have to take various things into consideration.

There are two civil servants on that commission. Their training would almost compel them to read the Act and follow the Act. They would have to take into account the cost of production, the supply of bacon on the market, the state of the export market, and other matters of that kind. They took all these things into account every time they made a change in the price. I can assure the Senator that they never consulted me about a change in the price. They are not bound to under the Act and they never did. On the other hand, I claim the right, at least as an ordinary citizen, if I get a letter from a farmer or a curer pointing out something which is wrong about the price or the classification, asking that the classification should be changed, or pointing out that the price was too low or too high to submit these representations to the commission. I have in all cases passed such communications on to the commission and asked them to consider them. Whether the commission were influenced by the fact that certain correspondence was sent through me I do not know, but, at any rate, they were quite free to make any decision they thought proper. I can tell the Senator that on one occasion I sold pigs myself and the price went up the next day. Senators would hardly believe that.

There was quite a lot of talk from various Senators about the great changes in prices and classifications. Senator Baxter read out the list and he read it correctly. I have it here. I do not want to go over those figures again. Senators have heard them all from Senator Baxter.

They will perhaps have noticed this, however; I think the Senator started off at 1st January, 1941. As a matter of fact, it was only at that date that the price began to go up rather rapidly. They were more or less the same from the time we started in September, 1939, until 1st January, 1940. Then there were rather frequent jumps in price; all the time they were going up. There were five changes between 1st January and 2nd June. All that time there was a step upwards. I agree with the commission in this: even if they feel that the price of pigs will be up by 10/- per cwt., they are right in saying: "We will do it in two intervals of 14 days each", because we can understand that a farmer who sells a batch of pigs and finds that they are up 10/- per cwt. next day has a terrible grievance. If they are up 5/-, his grievance is not so bad. In that way, I think it is better they should go up by small stages rather than by big jumps, in order to prevent the farmers from having that sense of grievance. The same applies to decreases in price, of course.

Mr. Baxter

They did not do that when they were bringing the price down. I should like the Minister to deal with that.

Dr. Ryan

I will come to the point where they went down.

Mr. Baxter

That is the real grievance.

Dr. Ryan

On 1st October they made a change in the classification. The position at that time was somewhat the same as it is now, that is that we had been exporting bacon up to that time, and we stopped exports as killings began to go down at that period. Although there was much more at the time than would be needed for the home market, we thought we had better stop the exports and begin to store up for what everybody could see was the rainy day as far as bacon was concerned. We had the same complaints as we had here to-day that, although the curers were paying less for the fat pig than for the lean pig per cwt., if you went to buy bacon you had to pay the same for it. We said: "If that is the case, there is no reason why the point should not be put to the commission, and let them consider it." The commission did consider it, and they made two prices, 112/- and 107/-. There was no low price at all, down in the nineties, as we had for a third class.

That went on until 5th January, and it was at this stage that we began to find that a quantity of wheat was being fed to pigs. That was proved beyond yea or nay because we actually found that the wheat was in the stomachs of the pigs. Also, as somebody mentioned here, we have since dealt with quite a number of mills which were found milling wheat for pig feeding. What we found at the time was that it paid the farmer very well to increase his pig in weight, say from 12 stone dead up to 15 stone dead, even though he suffered a cut of 5/- per cwt., because, as one Senator pointed out, it takes very much less in meal to produce the last stone weight in a pig than it does in the intervening stages. The farmers are well aware of that. That point was put to the commission. They were asked whether or not they could deal with this point about wheat, and they thought the only possible way to deal with it was to victimise the farmer who kept his pig too long. The third class was brought back again; the first and second classes were left more or less as they were, except that the third class was introduced again. It came then to 16th February; that was when the first general lowering of prices took place. At that period the curers were clamouring to get rid of their bacon. They said they had far too much bacon; that it was very long stored with them, and was not going to keep. We made inquiries at the time about the export market. The policy of the British Ministry of Food was very much as outlined by Senator Johnston. Though I am not commenting on that Minister's policy, I should like that Minister, Lord Woolton, always to believe that whatever I do here is best for the country, and I am prepared to believe that whatever he does there is best for his country. Senator Johnston, of course, can go on thinking——

Professor Johnston

What he likes, because he is irresponsible?

Dr. Ryan

——that both of us are wrong. The prices were very bad, and we thought it on the whole better to depress the price slightly here and go in for bigger consumption of bacon for some time. That is why that cut was made in price at that time. It was brought down 6/- in the first class, 7/- in the second class, and heavy pigs were brought down rather drastically. Since that, the tendency has been slightly upwards in price, because we felt on the whole in the Department—and any correspondence or circulars and so on that were sent to the commission for their consideration were to that effect, I think—that, as there was no longer any danger of feeding wheat to pigs, those price cuts that were brought in on account of the wheat question might be reconsidered. What was done on a recent occasion—which looked rather slight—the bringing of the second class from 98/- to 100/-, meant very much more than that. It also meant that the second-class pig was increased in weight by a stone. In the second class, before that, pigs were accepted only up to 12 stone, now the second-class pig may be 13 stone, which, of course, is a stone heavier. That makes a very much bigger difference than may appear from the 2/- rise, because it brought a big number of pigs actually from 80/- to 100/-, as well as bringing the 98/- up to 100/-.

I do not think it is right to say that the commission have been making very big and frequent and drastic changes. I think that, with the exception of the last February reduction, the tendency since we commenced right through was to raise the price every time. Now, the peculiar thing about it is this, that even though the price was going up all the time there was no increase in the number of pigs. When Senators say to me that we ought to encourage pig production, I wonder if any Senator has gone into detail and said to himself: "Now, what should we do in this case? Is it sufficient, for instance, to put up the price alone?" I do not think it is.

I do not think that is the thing which matters so much. I think the thing which matters most of all is the supply of feeding. For instance, I suppose everybody will admit that, whatever number of pigs are there, they can be dealt with in the factories, but it is equally obvious that every small pig in the country which is brought to a fair will be sold for fattening, and always has been. Sometimes the price is low, and sometimes the price is good. Therefore, the man who is fattening pigs is sometimes a different person from the person who produces the pigs. If he feels that he ought to fatten pigs, he goes to the fair and he buys small pigs, which are sometimes very dear, and sometimes very cheap. At any rate, every small pig that is offered is sold. We have to go further down, then; it is not the fat pig at all that we have to look after. We have to go down to the man who owns a sow and say to him: "What is the consideration in your case? Why is it that sometimes we have more pigs bred than at others?"

If we look at the year 1941, it will be seen that we commenced there with a top price of 88/- per cwt.; we ended the year with 112/-. There was a very big increase in price right through that year, and yet the number of sows mated went down as compared with the corresponding figure in the year 1940. That is a thing that we find it hard to understand because, after all, we said: "The price is much better. The indications are that the price is going to go up all the time. Why do the farmers not send their sows to the boar and breed more young pigs?" They were sending less. There were certain months that year when the number of sow matings went down by over 50 per cent. as compared with the corresponding months in 1940. There was no month, until you come to the very end of the year, where the number was less than 20 per cent. down. I suppose we may presume that, in the mind of the man who owns a sow, there are two things that determine whether he will go on breeding or not. Number one is: has he enough feeding; and number two is: will he get a decent price for his young bonhams? Leaving feeding aside for the moment, let us take the price of young bonhams. The price of young bonhams was good. It has been very good for the last 12 months. There were certain slight reductions—not very much; the price of the 12-weeks-old bonham went down to 45/- on a few occasions, but it was mostly around 50/- and sometimes up to 60/- for the last 12 months, and that, on the whole, is a very good price. I think if the farmer was assured that he could feed his sow, and could rear the young bonhams that were born, he would have gone more into the business.

Therefore, I am inclined to think that the big deterrent in this whole business was that farmers who had sows were afraid to go on breeding with them lest they should not have the feeding. There cannot, I think, be any other explanation. The price of pigs can have no influence on sow matings. Right through the year 1941 these matings were going down. The first price increase was in February and the first increase in sow matings was many months afterwards. That shows that, so far as the psychology of the farmer who keeps a sow is concerned, he has no regard to the price of fat pigs, but is concerned only with the question whether he can feed his sow and young bonhams. He has regard only to the price of young bonhams. The price of these was good all along, so that he had no anxiety on that score.

Senators are entitled to know what the prospects are. This is a terribly involved matter. In my Department, they keep a graph of sow matings. This month is compared with the last month and sometimes they make a shot at what the supply of pigs in the factories will be nine or ten months ahead. They make a fair shot at that, but certain factors are inclined to upset our estimates now. For instance, in normal times, farmers, when they get a 12-weeks-old pig, turn it out fat when six or seven months old. Now, it is different. I see the difference in my own place and I suppose every Senator has the same experience. The farmer may have a little bit of feeding —a few tons of potatoes and some skim milk—and he buys three or four small pigs. He says: "I can only keep them going as stores until the harvest comes in." The result is that pigs are kept in the store stage much longer than they would be if feeding were available. In these circumstances, it is hard to plot your graph accurately or to tell accurately what the position will be. On the other hand, if you plot your graph and say that there will be so many pigs presented next September, October or November, if they do not come in in September, they are likely to come in in October or November, so that, for six months ahead, you would not be very much out.

On the basis, taking all those qualifications into consideration—perhaps it shows more courage than discretion to attempt to give figures—I think the shortage of bacon will be acute for about three months to come. For the present month of June, the factories have given their returns of the amount of bacon they are releasing for consumption and this represents 83 per cent. of the amount released in June of last year. That is the official figure I got from the commission.

I am told by several people outside as well as here—Senator Doyle read a letter here to-day on the subject—that some wholesalers and retailers are getting only 25 per cent. of what they were getting in June of last year. It is very hard to reconcile these statements—the statement that they are getting only 25 per cent. and the statement that they are releasing 83 per cent. of what they released at this time last year. On the stock of bacon in hands, on the supply of pigs coming in and on our prospective graph, we would not, I think, have more than 60 per cent. of our bacon requirements for the next three months but, if things turn out as one would forecast from looking at the figures, by the end of September we should be back practically to the supply of bacon we require for home consumption. We should remain in a fairly good position then for some months. There may be a crisis again in the spring of next year but, as things look now, it should be shorter than that of this year because the first time there was an upward trend in the matings of sows was in March. It was very much better in April and I do not know what it was in May. At any rate, it looks as if it were going to continue.

The commission were blamed for making changes which disheartened the farmer. The only time they made a reduction was last February, and for three weeks before that reduction came into operation—I admit they did not say there was a reduction coming—they advertised in the local papers that they were prepared to take over every pig offered for sale at the old, published prices. They did that deliberately, so that no farmer could say that he tried to sell his pigs last week and that then this reduction of price came, so that he had to sell at a reduced price. There, again, the commission showed every consideration for the producer. They could not say that they were going to reduce the price of pigs in three months' time because, if they did, every pig in the country would be offered to them.

They did advise farmers to market their pigs and said that they would take them for three weeks before the reduction became effective at different centres throughout the country.

I do not think that it is fair to talk about instability or about the price classifications. Nor is it fair to talk about irregularity in the acceptance of pigs, as Senator McGee did. I know what Senator McGee had in mind. On occasions, during the past four or five years, farmers have been turned away from factories and told "We cannot take your pigs". Senators should not come to the conclusion that that was always due to the action of the commission. On some occasions, it might have been. The commission might have made some miscalculation in allocating the quota. They may have made the quota too low but, when that fact was brought to their notice, the quota was altered to permit of pigs offered being taken. Very often people in trade, such as bacon curers, when they have reasons of their own for declining to take pigs, are inclined to blame some Government Department or some semi-Government Department for their inability to take them. Another suggestion made was the establishment of a uniform price for all pigs. There was some talk about the price of the pig and the price of bacon. One hears that talk practically everywhere. The farmer, we are told, gets 8d. or 9d. a lb. for his pig and he pays 2/9 a lb. for bacon. We shall have to make a comparison on a much fairer basis than that. I think that Senator Baxter was taking the deadweight prices. It must be remembered that it takes 1? cwt. deadweight to make 1 cwt. of bacon. That is the first thing we have to allow for in the price of bacon.

A couple of months ago I saw bacon quoted at 124/- per cwt. ex-factory. That was a very favourable price—of course it was for heavy bacon—but, still, it gives you an idea of the relative prices of deadweight pigs and the ex-factory prices that usually rule. Once they leave the factory, they go to the wholesaler. The wholesaler does not get a lot, and the retailer claims he gets no profit whatever, and probably he does not get very much. If the retailer could sell a cwt. of bacon as back rashers he would certainly get a profit. That is another point that is not always kept in mind. When Senators talk about 2/4 per lb. for bacon they should remember that the most the retailer can get is ten or 12 lbs. of back rashers. Shoulder bacon sells cheaper and belly bacon goes very cheaply. The average is much lower.

Liam O Buachalla

There is shrinkage, too.

Dr. Ryan

Yes, there is a great deal of shrinkage. The point has been made that if you go in to ask for heavy fat bacon you can get it much cheaper, but I do not think that any shopkeeper would have fat bacon in Dublin—he could not sell it. You will get it in the country. Most of it is bought by farmers by the side, and they get it for less than 1/6 per lb., sometimes for 1/2 or 1/3. One of the points that I mean to underline and send to the commission is that of raising the price of the heavy pig and making it a flat price, if it is not a flat price. I think it is a thing they might at least consider.

Mr. Baxter

I am not going to detain the Seanad. On the whole, I have no complaint at all as to the manner in which the House has met the motion. It is natural that there would be divergent views, in the first place, as to the weight of the argument advanced in favour of the motion. Naturally, one could not expect that the Minister was prepared to pass unfavourable judgment on the body which operates as a result of legislation which he himself put forward to the Oireachtas.

There are two or three considerations to be taken into account in the present situation. The Minister's argument was that price was not the ultimate factor in determining whether people stayed in pig production or not. In my opinion, nothing determines that question more than price. Price determines what the producer can obtain in the way of raw materials for the production of the commodity or the finished product. I agree that, when the first crush of the war shortage came upon us, and when we had not made very much, if any, preparation to get from our own fields the sort of feeding necessary for the production of bacon or pork, it took us a long time to get into our stride. When the first drop in imports came, no matter what you did in regard to price, you could not feed pigs if no meal or potatoes were available. With the shortage of shipping and the low tillage area, it was inevitable that there would be a drop in pig production, owing to the shortage of supplies. The same thing happened everywhere—certainly in Northern Ireland. I know people up there who were very extensively engaged in pig production, but who were able to adjust themselves much more quickly than we did down here. Then, when we came on to this other period, we were suffering a shortage in every sense. The men with the sows were depressed by it, it was felt that there would be a shortage of all sorts of food, and they were not prepared to take the risk.

Perhaps we are all responsible. Perhaps the big fault was that a better effort was not made to find out the amount of food available in the country. Anyone who tries to get the information will have no trouble in verifying what I have said—that there are thousands of tons of potatoes going to waste. That is not in my own county, where we make a much better effort to get people to buy, so that they can offer them in other counties. But even there they are going to waste.

In order to avoid that waste the farmers are paying as much as £3 10/- each for eight-week old pigs, so that the potatoes may not go to waste. I do not know how we are to sell those pigs at a profit, at the price the Pigs and Bacon Commission have fixed. It is that sort of thing which will make farmers go out of pig production.

Mr. O'Donovan

Potatoes alone will not finish pigs.

Mr. Baxter

I did not say they would.

Mr. O'Donovan

That was good for the man with the sow.

Mr. Baxter

I know. It was very good on the whole for the Cavan farmers. All through the years we had had more sows per head of the population in Cavan than in any other part of the country. I have seen men come from Senator McEllin's county and buy pigs eight weeks old and take them back to Mayo. How they are to feed them and make a profit at 106/- a cwt. I do not know. That is the attitude of those farmers, who do not want to let food go to waste in Cavan or Mayo. It is a long time, if it ever happened before, since those farmers came to Cavan and paid £3 for pigs eight weeks old. I cannot see how it is possible for those people to have any return at all for their labour at the present price for bacon.

In the production of pigs, as in any other commodity, the farmer, like the rest of the people at the moment— whether you give him credit for it or not—is just as temperamental. From the 16th February to the 5th March, the price was 106/- 98/- and 80/-. I am very clear about this, as I listened to the radio announcement on a Saturday evening myself. It was to the effect that the price of pigs on the following Monday was to be 106/-, 98/-, and 80/-. On that Saturday the price of pigs going into the factory beside me was 112/-, 105/-, and 95/-. Though it did not happen to me personally, if I were unfortunate enough not to take my pigs in on the Friday or Saturday at 95/- for heavy pigs, I would get only 80/- on the following Monday.

Mr. O'Donovan

That happened to the Minister also.

Dr. Ryan

Not that time.

Mr. Baxter

If you take a farmer with three or four pigs, running close to two cwt., he would lose 15/- per cwt. on each. One can realise what that means to him. He feels the hand of the Minister and the commission and everybody else against him. I want to assure the Minister and the House that I have met many of those farmers and that that was their reaction. They said they did not know where they stood, and that they were finished with pig production.

Dr. Ryan

The point I would like the Senator to deal with is that, in spite of that, the man fattening pigs still paid a big price for small pigs— in fact, he paid a bigger price later.

Mr. Baxter

I accept that. Men coming out with those pigs, buying at a very high price, without proteins available in any quantity, will take some time longer to fatten them. If they must come out to a market which will not yield any profit, it will be difficult to keep our farmers in that sort of production. Instead of their producing more pigs, to use up all the waste potatoes and waste grain, they will go out of pig production. It would be much more profitable to sell potatoes on the market than to feed them to animals, hence the waste. There are psychological factors in the production on the farm, which must be taken into account, and there is no doubt that the decision of the Pigs and Bacon Commission, made at very short notice——

Dr. Ryan

It must be made at short notice. The Senator will admit that.

Mr. Baxter

The Minister pointed out that a sort of hint was thrown out by the Pigs Commission, as it notified in the local papers that pigs would be taken for some weeks before the decision was arrived at. That is something I cannot understand. I am living very near the bacon factory. I saw men trying to have their pigs taken into the bacon factory and they could not have that done, as the quota was filled. Our supply of pigs in the county generally is kept much higher and steadier than anywhere else — even more steady than in Cork. I do not know what the position is in Wexford.

Price of Bacon Pigs—Motion.

Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 18 Jun 1942