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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 10 Dec 1942

Vol. 27 No. 5

Export of Milch Cows—Motion.

I move:—

That, in view of the tendency of limitation of export of milch cows by reference to available shipping space to depress prices in the home market and widen the margin of dealers' profits, the Seanad is of opinion that such limitation as may be necessary, owing to transport conditions or desirable in the public interest, should be effected by an appropriate levy on the export of milch cows, springers, and in-calf heifers.

I am moving this motion entirely on my own personal responsibility. It is true that I am a member of a body which is inquiring into various matters affecting our agricultural position and that, in due course, that body may have views to express on the general question of maintaining and improving the quality and numbers of the best kind of cows in the country. At the moment, however, that body is not in a position to make any settled recommendations on that point. Meanwhile, there is a problem forced upon us which the Government and the House should take into account, that is, the present tendency for the rate at which our best cows are exported from the country to be somewhat accelerated.

In proposing a tax on cows exported, I am quite aware that such a proposal is likely to be somewhat unpopular, and that any Government, especially a Party Government, which adopted a tax on the export of cows, would be laying itself open to unfair and, perhaps, damaging criticism on the part of the Opposition, if the Opposition were prepared to act on the principle that any stick is good enough to beat a dog with. I am assuming that the Government, though a Party Government, will act in the spirit of a National Government and that the Opposition will put national considerations above Party considerations—and if that assumption is not justified by the facts, it ought to be.

The loss of our best cows has been a chronic condition—going on for generations. On that point, I will quote some figures which are not without interest. The number of cows supplying milk to creameries in 1938 was 573,000, while in 1941 it was 530,000—a diminution of some 43,000 cows. The amount of milk supplied to creameries per cow in 1938 was 370 gallons, while in 1941 it was 349 gallons. Therefore, not only was there a diminution of some 40,000 cows, but there was a diminution of 20 gallons per cow, between 1938 and 1941. Of course, it is possible that these cows, although they ceased to supply milk to the creameries, did not leave the country. On the other hand, it is probable that a number not so very different from that did leave the country. In normal times, up to 1939 and 1940, the export of cows was about 50,000 or 60,000 per year. I apprehend that recently, and especially in the last six months, that rate of export of our best cows has increased greatly. I fear that the rate of export is now in the region of 100,000 cows per year.

The background of this whole affair is the fact that milk is in great demand in Great Britain and Northern Ireland. There is a scarcity of protein for human ration there, and they have elected to discourage beef exports from Éire to Great Britain as a source of protein; otherwise, they would not pay 9/- less for beef cattle than for forward stores. Against that, they have shown recently a tendency to derive protein in large amount by consuming a greater quantity of fresh milk. Quite recently, they arranged things in such a way that practically every drop of milk which farmers in Northern Ireland and Great Britain can spare, beyond household requirements, is sold at a fixed price. The price for liquid milk in the present month, December, 1942, is fixed at 2/6 per gallon; and the price for milk of manufacturing quality, that is, milk corresponding to the quality of creamery milk, is 1/11 per gallon.

That means that the farmer in Northern Ireland or Britain who has milk to spare can be practically certain of getting 1/1 per gallon for it and may, in some cases, get 2/6 a gallon or even more, if it grades as Grade A milk. That has inevitably and automatically caused a serious appreciation in the value of all cows in Britain and Northern Ireland. Cows in that area have gone up in value by more than the seasonal amount for the autumn of the year. I do not know by what margin they have increased in value, but I should not be surprised that cows were worth £20 a head more in September and October, the autumn of the year, than they were at the corresponding time a year ago.

In that situation, there is a tremendous suction set up, tending to suck our surplus cows out of our country because of the profit in the higher price. After all, what self-respecting cow would go on producing milk in County Limerick for 9d. a gallon when she could be producing milk across the Border at 2/6 a gallon or, at all events, 1/11? The only limit to the export of cows appears to be the transport facilities available for them, and I gather that cows come last in priority in transport, that all other kinds of cattle get out first, that cows are allowed out only to the extent of the transport facilities available, and that a licensing system exists by which the Minister issues licences only to the number of cows for which transport can be got. Suppose transport conditions were free and normal, and there were no restrictions on the carrying of cows. We may assume for the sake of argument that all cows in this area are of the same value and that all cows in Britain and Northern Ireland are of the same, other value. In other words, cows in this area are worth £40 apiece and all cows in Northern Ireland £50 apiece. Given free transport facilities in that case, the dealer would buy cows in Éire at £40 apiece and sell them in Northern Ireland or Britain at £50 apiece, leaving him with a gross margin of £10 normally to cover transport and his expenses. That would give rise to the problem and to the proposition contemplated by by motion.

If I am right in thinking that there is limitation on transport facilities for the export of cows, then there is a potential supply of cows available on this side of the Border for export greater than transport facilities can take. That situation gives you a market in favour of the dealer. He can pick and choose his cows and, whereas, in normal circumstances, he should pay £40 for what I might call a typical cow, he can get all the cows if he has a licence, for as low as £30 each. If that be the essence of the situation, it makes a present to the dealer of a surplus profit and my case is that if that surplus profit arises, it is in fact in the nature of an unearned increment and it should be intercepted by the State in the form of an export tax on cows or in some other way which I will shortly suggest.

To find out whether the facts are as I think they are, I know it would be necessary to ascertain over a period of normal years what was the normal gross profit obtained by dealers in buying cows in Éire and selling in Britain and then to ascertain, in reference to the present era of limited transport facilities, whether and to what extent that normal gross profit has been in fact widened by reason of the glut of supply here owing to the lack of transport facilities and to ascertain to what extent dealers were making abnormal extra profits. An export tax could then be imposed equal to that differential profit to capture for the community something which would otherwise go into the pockets of the cow dealers.

If the State did that, in theory the dealers would still pay the same price. They would be paying the owners of the cows for those they bought and the only difference would be that the surplus profit instead of going into the dealers' pockets would come into the pocket of the State by way of taxation. If I am right in thinking that we are exporting 100,000 cows in the year, the increase in the margin of dealer's profit may be of the order of £5 or £10 per cow. Obviously, over a period of 12 months, there is a nice little nest-egg to be collected of £500,000 or so which would help to relieve taxation in other directions and would not diminish by one iota the prices which farmers would obtain for the cows they did sell. That would deal only with one aspect of the problem.

It would not affect in any way the quality of the cows we export. It would still leave unsolved the problem of trying to increase the number of the best cows and heifers we keep in the country, but on the assumption that we must continue that undesirable economic drain of our best cows for export to England, it would at all events ensure that the Exchequer benefited rather than the dealer from the present abnormal situation and the undesirable drain.

There is another way in which the Minister could capture for the State the profit which might otherwise go undeservedly into private pockets. If I am right in thinking that there is not as much transport facility for cows as would be desirable from the point of view of the number of cows that people would like to sell, then the licences which the Minister issues, being based on the limited transport facilities available, have a real commercial value and would tend to be sold for the commercial value in the same way as licences for fat cows and other cattle were sold during the economic war period. If there is the slightest sign of any sale of licences to export cows taking place, I suggest that the obvious thing for the Minister to do is not to give these licences gratis to anyone, but to fix a price at which those licences would be sold by tender and to vary that price from week to week in accordance with demand. In that way, in accordance with variations in transport facilities, he will be able to get a price for those licences which exactly corresponds to their commercial value and will prevent the dealers profiting by the present abnormal transport situation. I have, at all events, opened the matter for discussion and, perhaps, if the debate is adjourned until next year we may be able to develop the discussion in various other directions.

Although not at all agreeing with the general trend of the remarks made by Senator Johnston, I second the motion to put it in order for discussion.

I oppose the motion. Senator Johnston has great theoretical knowledge but, like most other professors, he thinks he knows something about everything.

I do not think that at all.

All professors do. I agree that the Senator has a limited amount of practical knowledge. He has a certain practical experience which the other professors perhaps lack, but he knows very little about the subject under discussion. I say that with all due respect to Senator Johnston.

One of my reasons for raising the point is that I want to get more knowledge of the facts.

The Senator's statements are all wrong. I am not discussing the statement about preserving our best cows for home consumption, but his statements about the export trade in cows are all wrong. First of all he said that in pre-war this country exported something like 60,000 cows. Does he include in-calf heifers in that, I wonder?

I should think so—springing heifers.

Springing heifers are shipped in a great many cases as stores. They are not included to any great extent in the other shipments. When we were distributing the licences we found that there were hundreds of cases of persons saying that they exported in-calf heifers as stores for the reason that in many ports—ports like Waterford, for instance—there are special rates for fat cattle, store cattle and springers. I wonder where the Senator got his statistics? He says that we export under licence 100,000 cows a year.

On that point, I think the Minister stated in the other House that 14 per cent. of the cattle exported in recent months were cows. Is that correct?

14 per cent. is roughly one-seventh and, according to my recollection, the total export of cattle in a year is about 700,000. A seventh of 700,000 is 100,000, if you take 700,000 as the rate for the whole 12 months period, but it might apply only to the period under review.

If the Senator referred to any person with knowledge of the situation or to someone in the Department of Agriculture, he would find out that there are only about 900 licences per week issued in England to the Department of Agriculture. That would be only 46,800 if they were issued for the 52 weeks. That does not include the limited number exported to Northern Ireland, but it is a long way short of 100,000. The Senator also said that transport conditions are a means of swelling shippers' or dealers' profits.

I tell the House that, as far as transport is concerned, there are no shipping restrictions on cows, and have not been for a long time. Milch cows have a priority claim on all boats going out and all the shipping companies recognise that claim. They are never held up, as facilities are always given for their export. As a matter of fact, there are no transport difficulties in regard to the shipping of cattle for a considerable time—not since the crush came on after the foot-and-mouth congestion last year. We are able to get away, in a short space of time, all the cattle we are able to export. As far as I know nothing is held up for more than three or four days. There are no transport restrictions as far as shipping is concerned and there have not been for a long time.

Has there been any widening of the normal margin of gross profit on which cow exporters operate comparing now with six years ago?

That is an important point. Tell us that, Senator.

Transport on railways and shipping is a very precarious job, particularly for milch cows. They are subject to a good many complaints, a good many breakdowns, and they suffer a good deal in transit, but that is only a thing that any of the dealers or any business man will understand, and anticipate as likely to happen in the course of trade. Tariffs will not lower the dealers' profits, if that is what the Senator is concerned with. He seems to be afraid that the dealer is making too much, but the tariffs might possibly have the opposite effect. The Senator should know that during the foot-and-mouth outbreak, when we had to get many licences under restrictions, the profits during that time were higher than they were at any time since or before.

The dealers' profits were?

That is my whole case.

At that time we had a congestion of stock. Now the price of the live stock exported is regulated by what they can make in the British market. If the Senator wants the Department to put £10 a head on every milch cow or in-calf heifer exported, and if the Department decided to do that, I can say that it is the farmer who would pay that £10 and not the exporter. The Government would have no means of checking it, and it would be a matter of indifference to the dealer or exporter what tariffs were put on.

Is not the dealer getting them as cheap as he can now?

He will at all times get them as cheaply as he can, and the only way to regulate that is competition—the good old rule of supply and demand. Nothing else will cut down the dealers' profits. Senator Johnston also talked about the price of £20 or £30 for cows. In the Dublin market last Wednesday, cows were making up to £60. If he reads the Irish Times he will see that.

I said that cows in England were at least £20 a head dearer than they were a year ago.

Not quite.

Well, in or about that.

The Senator spoke of £20 or £30 for best cows. Our best cows are making up to £60.

I merely gave that arithmetical illustration to show the principle involved.

Senator Counihan must be allowed to proceed to make his speech in his own way, without interruption.

If the Senator will look at the prices on the British market he will see that the prices for cows are from £45 to £75 a head for English cows as well as Irish cows.

My case is that they were getting enough and that the dealer is getting too much——

Senator Counihan must be allowed to proceed.

Cows are making up to £60 a head and I think a farmer that gets £60 for a cow is not very badly off. It is not a bad price for cows and they made that price in Dublin last Wednesday. The Senator talked about the conditions of export but I am afraid he did not know very much about them. The facts are that the British Government allow about 900 cows a week to be exported to England under licence. These licences are sent to the Department of Agriculture which sends them to the Secretary of the National Executive of the live stock trade. At one time the National Executive met to distribute the licences pro rata according to the numbers of cows exported by dealers in 1939. Since then the members of the National Executive could not give the time to it and an official of the Department of Agriculture with the secretary of the National Executive is working on them. They get the licences pro rata on the 1939 figures. I cannot see that it could be done in any other way, because the export of springing cows and in-calf heifers is a specialised job. There are markets to which they are sent and, if it was left to the farmers to ship their cows, they would not know where to send them. They would not have the clients to handle them either and they would not know the markets for which these cows would be suitable. At present no milch cows are exported from Éire to Scotland, so the whole business of export is in the hands of the British Government, which sends licences to the Department of Agriculture. The number of these licences is limited to about 900 a week. Northern Ireland will take a limited number of cows, but, again, the licences come to the Department and anybody coming in to buy cows here must have a licence or permit from the Northern Government to bring the cows into the Six Counties.

As regards the imposition of a tax, any tax that is put on will come out of the farmer's pocket. It does not matter whether the export tax is £10 or £1, the dealer will look for the same profit and he will buy his cows as cheaply as he can. The only thing which will regulate that is competition and supply and demand. I do not know what is at the back of Senator Johnston's head in advocating a tax on these cows. It would have no effect whatever on the price which the farmer would get for his cows. If these restrictions were put on, it might have an adverse effect. I strongly oppose the motion and I do not think that the Minister will give any countenance to it, either. I do not think that any sensible man would give it countenance. I am surprised at Senator Johnston putting down a motion of this type. I am here as a representative of the cattle trade and Senator Johnston never consulted me to ascertain what effect it would have.

I consulted you now.

A motion like that is senseless. The Senator should have consulted somebody who knew something about the position.

I agree entirely with what Senator Counihan says. It is to be deplored that, after the last decade of trouble through which the cattle trade has passed and after every human difficulty that could be put in front of it was so placed, we should now be confronted with giddy motions to upset the even tenor of the way with which England's difficulties have provided us —a favourable opportunity to make the prices which Senator Counihan rightly quoted. I suggest to Senator Johnston that the fall of 40,000 in number of cows from 1938 to 1941 and the reduction in the milk supply may, in part, be attributed to the absence of food which was, normally, at the farmers' disposal and the use of which the Government had no option but to prohibit. That was bound to have some effect on the production of milk per cow and on the number of cows the farmer would feed. It is very human for the farmer to try to place his cows where they will produce 2/6 a gallon for milk instead of the wretched price paid at home. What compensation would be required to keep these cows at home? You cannot expect the farmers to go on keeping these animals without some compensation. To attempt to stop the profits coming to them now is, I suggest, entirely imprudent.

As regards the profits of the dealers, it is my fortune frequently to auction cows and I see the dealers very keen, even to the tune of 2/6, to obtain possession of the cows. If any of us takes the trouble to examine our towns, we will find in each one relics of broken-down cattle dealers, men who found it necessary, unlike professors, to get up at three or four o'clock in the morning and walk, with the light of a cigarette, in slush and muck, while contributing, at the same time, through taxes, to the maintenance of our always desirable academic institutions. We spend a great deal of time in the Seanad talking about professors and the work of professors. I sometimes think that all the time we so spend is not spent in the interest of the children who are being taught. To-night, we heard the Minister for Finance deploring that the Dáil and Seanad are frequently asking for more interference with the normal flow of work—more Government control, more officials and more expense. Instead of a motion like this, I should be delighted to see a motion coming from any side of the House which would endeavour to restore the cattle trade to the position which it occupied ten years ago. Whatever other blot is on the administration of the Ministry for the past ten years, that of the cattle trade is one which will not be wiped out for 20 years to come. Families had to make such sacrifices during the past 20 years that they were ruined. It is absurd to have motions now brought in to obstruct those who are trying to replenish the modest living which has, at all times, been the lot of the Irish farmer.

I want to give some figures which do not agree with those given by Senator Johnston. The figures supplied to me were: Dairy cattle exported in 1938, 71,000; in 1939, 78,000. As Senator Counihan mentioned, heifers in calf were not included in that figure in many cases. The rule about heifers in calf is much more strict now and they are at present included in the exports. Taking the six months, May to October, 1938, we exported 46,000 cattle and, this year, in the period May to October, we exported 41,570.

The total for this year to the end of October was 69,900, and if all the licences will be used up from this to the end of the year the total export should be 80,000. So there is no great difference between the exports now and what they were pre-war, especially taking into account that heifers in calf are now included, and they were not included at that time. Senator Johnston was not exactly correct in his understanding of the way in which these licences are issued. Senator Counihan explained to a certain extent how it is done. The British Government in consultation with us issues a certain number of licences, and as Senator Counihan said they fix a figure, it is 1,000 at the moment.

What does the Minister mean by "in consultation with us"?

For instance, they would like to get more at present. They issue 1,000 licences, but they would like to get more, but we say, "No."

They would like to get more?

We keep them down to 1,000. In Northern Ireland the issue is made direct to the importer. These are a few facts that may help to keep Senators right on this matter.

If the Minister could say whether these licences have recently developed a high value and whether there is buying and selling in them it will relieve my mind.

There is.

I could not say definitely that that is said.

Will the Senator move the adjournment of the debate?

I would like the debate to be adjourned as there are a number of matters I want to take up.

If no one else does so, I move the adjournment of the debate until next sitting of the House, because I want to raise a number of points.

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