Gárda Síochána Bill, 1945—Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Justice (Mr. Boland)

This Bill is intended to meet the need for more station sergeants and inspectors in the Gárda Síochána. I am satisfied that we require at least 14 more station sergeants and 18 more inspectors. Section 5 (2) of the Police Forces Amalgamation Act, 1925, prescribes that the Gárda Síochána shall consist of such officers and men as the Government shall, from time to time, determine, not exceeding the total number of officers and men respectively specified in the Third Schedule to the Act. In that schedule, the maximum strength of the rank of station sergeant is 44, and of the rank of inspector 60. The actual strength of the two ranks has already reached that figure. Therefore, we have to lift the statutory limit.

All the existing 44 station sergeants are serving in the Dublin Metropolitan Division. Three each are allocated to 14 stations—Kevin Street, Newmarket, Kilmainham, College, Lad Lane, Store Street, Fitzgibbon Street, Bridewell, Mountjoy, Donnybrook, Rathmines, Irishtown, Dun Laoghaire and Blackrock. There is one at Whitehall Station, which was established in 1935, and one is divisional clerk to Dublin Castle. I am satisfied that Whitehall should have three station sergeants, and that four stations which have none should also have three each. These stations are Sundrive Road, Kimmage —only opened recently — Clontarf, Terenure and Dalkey.

As regards the case for more inspectors, five of the 18 are wanted for the Dublin Metropolitan Division, two for headquarters and Depôt and 11 for country divisions. The present E district of the Dublin Metropolitan Division extends about five miles from Ringsend to Inchicore. Its present population is 142,000, representing an increase of 35,000 since 1936. It is proposed to divide the district into two districts—one to include Sundrive Road, Crumlin and Terenure sub-districts, and the other Donnybrook, Irishtown and Rathmines sub-districts. The establishment of the new district will, apart from other increases, mean an increase of three inspectors. The B and C districts of the Dublin Metropolitan Division comprise the main central city and port areas and almost half the crime of the division is referable to them. In each of these districts an extra inspector is badly needed for crime investigation, control of street offences and attendance at court.

Of the two inspectors to be allocated to headquarters and the Depôt one is required for the Technical Bureau (Fingerprints and Criminal Registry) and the other to look after recruits who are now being taken on half yearly in batches of 100 approximately.

Outside Dublin the Commissioner estimates that to meet urgent needs an immediate increase of 11 inspectors is necessary. Two are required for Cork City and County and the remaining nine inspectors are to be allocated to divisions where relief is most urgently needed. After these additions have been made the numbers will be: inspectors, 78 and station sergeants, 58. The maximum figures provided for in the Bill are somewhat higher, namely, 90 and 70 respectively. That is in order to provide some margin for possible future requirements and to avoid having to ask for a further increase should it be required.

Mr. Hayes

I think there is an excellent case for the appointments that the Minister mentions and for which he seeks authority in this Bill. I do not know very much about the country, but since the emergency and the establishment of the L.S.F. I have got to know a good deal about police duties in the city. Even in the country, without intimate knowledge, it has always struck me that there are not sufficient officers. It strikes me that the superintendent in the country has a much more difficult job than the district inspector had in the old days. First and foremost, police duties have increased enormously in the 20 years since the change over from the British. The whole idea of a policeman has actually changed. He is becoming a clerk, a statistician, and a collector of information. The whole modern tendency of Governments to increase their own scope has naturally increased the scope of the police. Hence I think there is need for more officers.

So far as Dublin is concerned, the Minister mentioned the "E" district I have some knowledge of that district and you could only describe it as absurd. It stretches from Inchicore to Ringsend. It is really absurd, particularly when you remember the new houses which have been built and when you take into consideration the Sundrive Road area. There can be no doubt that more station sergeants and inspectors are necessary in that area and also in the Drumcondra area.

May I put this to the Minister, since he is seeking power to appoint more inspectors or officers? I think the great difficulty in the Guards since 1922 has not been so much to find a suitable type of Guard as a suitable type of officer. Very great credit is due to those who have done the work, because they were asked to do the work in very difficult circumstances. Apart altogether from the difficulties arising from the Civil War in 1922, there were other difficulties as well. It is not very easy to do police duty in a country where you are told to go out and be friendly with the people and at the same time to do police duties. It is difficult in any country, but it is particularly difficult in our circumstances. I wonder whether the Minister has ever given any consideration to a scheme whereby a certain number, at any rate—I do not want to particularise at the moment as to the number I would say —but a certain percentage of the officers should be recruited from a class of cadets going in rather like the administrative class in the Civil Service; people going in, for example, with a university training, having certain educational qualifications to begin with, being interviewed with regard to general suitability, and having, of course, to undergo the usual physical tests. For example, I see that there are police colleges in England now and possibly we will have to do something of that kind ourselves and it may be found that such people, when given a training, would be successful. I would not by any means stop the promotion of suitable people from the ranks, but I think an effort should be made to recruit into the Guards people with a better education than we expect from the ordinary Guard to see how that would work. I am not clear in my recollection, but I think it was tried for a time already. I suggest that it is something well worth considering.

It is not quite relevant to this Bill, perhaps, but, particularly in a country town, it always strikes me that the superintendent of the Guards is asked to play a rôle which is impossible on the salary he gets. He is a responsible officer; he has a certain status to keep up; he is the principal representative in many ways of the Government and of the State, and his pay is poor. His job is getting much more difficult than any his predecessors had in former days in the old R.I.C. A comparison is sometimes made between the R.I.C. and the Guards. Certain things have been removed which were carried out by the R.I.C., but other things have come in which, on the whole, have made the work of the Gárda officer much more difficult than that of an R.I.C. officer, particularly in the period before 1913.

I should like particularly to say that the Bill is one which is necessary, one which I approve of, and which I think we will all have to approve of, but I should like to ask if any consideration has been given to a scheme whereby a certain percentage of the officers would be recruited from cadets with a high educational standard and tested in other ways for suitability. I think it would be a great improvement to the Guards generally and it would give an outlet to certain types of people who now, very often, are wasted so far as this country is concerned after receiving a very good education, indeed. Since the Bill is intended to give an increase in the number of officers, perhaps the Minister will tell us what the system of promotion is and whether any consideration has been given to the cadet system.

Liam O Buachalla

I have no comment at all to make on the Bill itself, because I think the Minister made a good case for it. At any rate, we all agree that he has made a good case for it and that he will get it. But I do not want to let this opportunity pass without making a request to the Minister, although I feel that, in making the request, I am pushing an open door. I want to impress on the Minister the necessity for speeding up the spread of a competent knowledge of Irish among the Gárdaí throughout the country, from the newest recruit to the most senior of the officers. That is a duty which is owed to the country, from every point of view. I notice, however, in the Gaeltacht areas there is a danger that because Gárdaí and officers have Irish they may be penalised to some extent. It happens on occasions that men, perhaps for health reasons or for family reasons of one kind or another, were anxious to transfer from the Gaeltacht to some other non-Gaeltacht area. It is also true that men in other areas may be anxious to transfer to Gaeltacht areas. Because of the difficulty of getting men with a competent knowledge of Irish to fill these positions in the Gaeltacht men already in the Gaeltacht are left there for unduly long periods and are left there often against their own wishes, while, if they did not have a knowledge of Irish, they would be able to secure the transfer they desire. The only solution of that problem, as I see it, is to insist that the whole Gárda force should be an Irish-speaking force so that such transfers as may be desirable in any part of the country may be secured without any difficulty or delay. I want to impress on the Minister—I feel sure he fully realises the necessity of it— the need to see that that ideal is brought to fruition as early as possible.

Mr. Boland

With regard to the cadet system, I think there will be no way out of having such a system in a few years' time. One of the reasons why we have not one now is that there are not enough vacancies. At the moment there is only an old vacancy. In five or six years' time it is expected that a big number of the senior officers will be retiring—at least, that is what I am given to understand. I have considered this matter carefully with the Commissioner and with the Government and it is my opinion that we shall have to have, in addition to men recruited from the existing force, some vacancies filled by cadets. Senator Hayes will realise that unless we have a sufficient number of vacancies we cannot have a cadet system. If we have cadets there must be somewhere to put them; we just cannot keep them waiting for a number of years.

Mr. Hayes

If you wait for five or six years you will have the vacancies but not the cadets. I think it is desirable to publish this so that prospective candidates will know what the position is.

Liam O Buachalla

There is quite a number of university graduates and barristers in the Gárda, even as ordinary members of the force.

Mr. Boland

I might mention that some of the newer recruits have a higher standard of education, but not all of them; it is not desirable that all of them should have a higher standard of education. A man with a good national school education must have his chance, and I think he is getting it under the competitive system. It is really a qualifying examination now. There is room for them.

So far as the cadet system is concerned, we would have to guarantee posts, because we cannot have men marking time for an indefinite period. For the few vacancies that now occur we have suitable men in the force. That is what I have been told by the Commissioner. He anticipates that many of the existing officers will be retiring in five or six years and we shall have to have those vacancies filled partly by cadets. There are men of good education coming into the Gárda at the present time and among these men we are bound to get good material. I will have the matter considered further, but what I have said is our view at the moment.

With regard to the Irish language, when you consider the older men in the force, I do not think it would be quite fair to expect them to become Irish speakers. I do not think Senator O Buachalla meant that. There is nothing more objectionable than trying to force the older men to start learning a language.

Mr. Hayes

It gets you nowhere; it is humbug in the end.

Mr. Boland

For a good while past every recruit who entered the Gárda Síochána had to have a very good working knowledge of Irish. About a year ago a special staff was recruited. It is not always the people with the best Irish who are the best drill instructors. We have a staff selected from different parts of the country, superintendents, sergeants and others who are training the recruits through the medium of the Irish language, in addition to the ordinary instructors. In that way we are making good headway, but the difficulty is that unless you have really good Irish speakers you cannot send them to the Gaeltacht. As some people say, it looks like victimising them, although they get extra pay for going there. The aim is to have the whole force Irish-speaking, but that will take some time. I do not think anybody will suggest that we should try to compel people who are beyond the period when they could learn easily, to study Irish. Nobody should do that.

Mr. Hayes

This may seem rather irrelevant, but I happen to know cases such as Senator O Buachalla mentioned, of people left for a very long time in a remote station. It looks like penalising them simply because they know Irish. As well as that, it is very bad for the men themselves. I cannot imagine anything worse for a policeman who is born and reared, say, in Connemara than to find himself planted in a remote district in Kerry and left there for eight years. The results are dreadful. If he were sent to Waterford City, or Tralee or Galway City it would be all right, but to shove him to a post six miles from a railway station is not a desirable course, particularly if he is left there for six or eight years.

Bill passed through Committee without amendment and reported.

Agreed to take the Fourth Stage now.

Question—"That the Bill be now received for final consideration"—put and agreed to.

Agreed to take the Fifth Stage now.

Question—"That the Bill do now pass"—put and agreed to.

Ordered: That the Bill be returned to the Dáil.

Seanad Éireann debate - Wednesday, 9 May 1945

Gárda Síochána Bill, 1945—Second and Subsequent Stages.

Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 May 1945