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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 4 Jul 1945

Vol. 30 No. 3

Unemployment Insurance Bill, 1945—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purpose of this Bill is to provide that there be paid into the Unemployment Insurance Fund on behalf of every soldier who served more than three months in the Defence Forces since September, 1939, or who may have future service in the Defence Forces, a sum of money which will ensure for him the right to benefit from the Unemployment Insurance Fund in precisely the same manner as if his service in the Defence Forces was service in insurable employment.

It is difficult to state what the actual cost of the measure may be. On the basis of existing contributions payable under the Unemployment Insurance Act the immediate cost falling upon the Exchequer will be £270,000. In fact, the amount paid into the Unemployment Insurance Fund from the Exchequer will be whatever amount is required to enable benefit to be paid when the claim is made, so that an exact estimate of the total sum involved cannot be given.

The annual cost in future is expected to be about £45,000. The Bill is a simple measure designed to achieve that purpose, and there is a reference to the insurance industry employment scheme. That is because of the fact that any person employed in the insurance industry is entitled to benefit under a special scheme. The Bill provides that he will secure the same rights as if he had been employed in the industry during the emergency.

The introduction of this Bill, the conferring of these benefits on the members of the Defence Forces who have been discharged or who may be discharged is part of the general scheme set out in the Government's White Paper relating to Army demobilisation. It is intended that the rights conferred by this Bill will be permanent, in respect of those who may join the service for periods longer than three months.

I think it will be agreed that this measure is satisfactory. There is only one aspect of it to which I wish to draw attention. It is not clear to me whether the sum which is to be paid into the fund is the equivalent of the value of the stamps and the State contribution if the soldier had been employed for the same period. It is possible it will be equal to that amount, but that is not clear. If it is equivalent I wonder why the Bill is drafted in such a roundabout fashion. It should be a simple thing to say that the State would pay into the fund an amount which would be equivalent to the income of the stamps and State contribution in respect of the same period, 50 weeks or 150 weeks, whatever it may be. If the contribution payable under this Bill is not equivalent to the amount which would have been payable if the soldier had been in civil employment and insurable it means that there will be a further drain on the fund. In other words, the Insurance Fund will be called upon to meet charges which would not normally arise were it not for this Bill.

In view of the likelihood or the danger that demands on the Fund may grow in the future, I think it is an undesirable situation if the Fund is called upon to bear a strain which it was not normally intended to bear. Apart from that the Bill is a satisfactory one and is eminently just to the men who have been discharged from the Army. It will prevent the need in the future for special measures to deal with special cases, often in a very unsatisfactory manner.

If the Bill provided for the payment into the Fund of 1/7d. for every week served by every soldier there would be a subsidisation of the Unemployment Insurance Fund, because some of those who will be demobilised from the Army will not claim from the Fund, or only claim to a lesser extent than the amount that will be put in credit, and consequently the Insurance Fund is subsidised and that fact might be used at some stage as an argument for a reduction of contributions or an increase of benefit. The Bill provides that there should be paid into the Fund only such amount as is required to meet the claims which demobilised soldiers may make when unemployed. Under the scheme the Fund will recover what was expended from the Exchequer. The actual amount to be paid into the Fund and the time at which payment will be made will have to be settled by order. In reply to Senator Duffy I could say that there is no danger that the assets of the Fund will be depleted as the result of the introduction of this Bill. If we were to adopt the alternative method of paying into the Fund the amount of the contribution for every week of every soldier then there would be an increase in the assets of the Fund which would come from the taxpayers as a whole and would therefore be unjustifiable.

It appears to me that there will in fact be a claim upon the Fund to this extent, that the cost of administration is likely to be increased.

The cost of administration is borne by the State.

That is what I am coming to. Twenty per cent. of the cost is charged on the Insurance Fund.

Exactly, but it is part of an obligation which the State will have to meet. The State recovers at the present time a proportion of the contribution against the cost of administration. It will still recover that. In other words, the only difference between the provisions in the Bill and actually paying the full amount, including the State's contribution into the Fund, is that we have taken steps to ensure that there will be no expansion of the fund at the taxpayers' expense. That is not what we are setting out to do in this Bill. The only thing we are setting out to do is to see that the soldier will have this credit in the fund.

I understand that, and I do not want to keep the Minister, but I still think it is not clear that the State is paying 20 per cent. of the cost of administration.

The State pays the cost of administration, but recovers a certain proportion of the contribution against that cost.

It will recover that against the soldiers' payments.

It cannot recover any more than it is recovering at the moment.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage fixed for next sitting of the Seanad.
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