And if I misunderstand Senator Sir John Keane I am afraid that my misunderstanding is probably shared by a great majority of those who have been listening to him for the past two or three weeks.
I do not want to labour this aspect of the matter unduly but it is an aspect that we have to keep in mind when we are endeavouring to determine what would be a fair ratio to set up as between the portion of the cost of the public services which should be borne by the local authorities, that is to say the ratepayers, and the portion to be borne by the central authority, that is to say the taxpayers of the country. It is quite true that all of us have a dual personality in this matter. We are at once ratepayers and taxpayers at the same time; and when we are big ratepayers we naturally tend to exaggerate perhaps our share of the burden as ratepayers and to say that it would be very much better if the little ratepayer—that is the indirect taxpayer in general-accepted as a taxpayer a very much larger share of the cost. The position is, however, that the Government has to have regard, not only to the ratepayers but to the taxpayers, and to the capacity of both classes to pay, and, therefore, has to try to maintain, by rough and ready means if you like, a fairly equitable balance as between them.
I am sorry that Senator Sweetman is absent because he had apparently indulged in a great deal of research in the past four or five weeks to inform himself as to the background and surrounding circumstances under which this Bill has been produced, and I had intended to correct the misapprehension which he seems to labour under. In the course of several of the speeches which he made here Senator Sweetman has taken credit to himself for bringing about a change of mind and of attitude on the part of the Minister in relation to the position of the managers and the elected bodies under the County Management Act, 1940.
I have here the Report of the Department of Local Government and Public Health for 1942-43 and in it appears a circular letter dated 20th August, 1942, in which is set out the views of the then Minister for Local Government, and who has not been changed since, on the relations which should exist between the county managers on the one hand and the elected representatives on the other and as to their respective powers and functions. I find that on the 20th August, 1942, I set out my views in the following form:—
"The functions of county councils and elective bodies as defined in Section 1 (3) of the Act are divided into reserved functions and executive functions. The reserved functions are those exercised by county councils and elective bodies. These are set out in detail in the Second Schedule of the Act. Every function which is not a reserved function of a county council or elective body is exercisable by the manager who will discharge on behalf of the local body all executive functions.
The reserved functions of county councils and the elective bodies include the making of the rate and the borrowing of money. The determination of policy and the ultimate control of finance, therefore, rests with the elected members of public bodies. The county manager's duty will be the execution of policy and the spending of funds that are made available. He will be entrusted with and be responsible for the successful conduct of the public business of the county."
Following the issue of that circular the Estimate for the Department of Local Government was discussed in Dáil Eireann on the 3rd and 4th November, 1943. In the course of my reply to the debate on the Estimate I said:—
"That leads me naturally to this other aspect of the matter. I do not regard county managers as being in any way superior to the elected bodies. On the contrary, in my view, the elected bodies are the paramount element in local administration. I am determined—I mean in no arbitrary way, but so far as my views can influence the operation of this Act—to make it quite clear to everybody that those who constitute the elected representatives of the ratepayers are of paramount influence in local affairs, in just the same way as this Assembly here is the paramount influence in the government of the nation. But this Assembly does not want to concern itself with what is happening to this particular civil servant or that particular State employee. Deputies can put down questions and, if they are not satisfied with the Minister's explanation, they can express their views and opinions in that regard but they do not ‘butt' in on his day-to-day management of his Department."
I went on to say, speaking on the fact that there were certain functions reserved to the manager:—
"The reservation is no wider in the case of a county manager than it is, say, in the case of a Minister. I mean, it mainly relates to the control of the staff. The Minister has control of his staff. That control is hedged round by certain precedents and traditions. The county manager is charged with the control of his staff. The control of the staff of the local authorities is vested in the county manager and, of course, it is hedged round, too, with certain precedents and certain conditions.
That is just the position of the county manager. I think it is on all fours with that of the Minister, except that a county manager is, perhaps, much more rigidly subject to the control of the members of the elected authority than sometimes Ministers or Governments are subject to that of the elected representatives of the people, because, if the local authority want to give directions to the county manager, they can do so without the danger of creating any serious political crises."
That was in November, 1943. On the 27th January, 1944, this circular was issued to each local authority and, of course, to all the members of the local authorities. It was issued before Senator Sweetman became either chairman or vice-chairman of the Kildare County Council. This circular said:—
"The elected representatives are given by the Act of 1940 wide powers in connection with the exercise by the county manager of executive functions. The manager is bound by the decisions of the elected body on the provision made by them in the annual estimates, and save with their consent he cannot exceed the total amount provided by them for any particular purpose. He must whenever requested by the local authority furnish all information in his possession or procurement concerning any business of the authority. Subject to some exceptions set out in sub-section (5) of Section 29 of the Act any council or elective body at a meeting specially summoned for the purpose can by resolution passed in accordance with that section require the manager to do any particular thing which he can lawfully do as part of his executive functions."
Later on in this circular I went on to say this:—
"The representatives of the electorate are the controlling element in local affairs. It is for them to formulate policy and in association with the manager to consider the solutions for local problems. A loyal acceptance by the manager of the predominant position of the elected body will do much to elicit from them the support to which he is entitled in the discharge of his duties. The law gives the manager the right to take part in the discussions of local bodies. When he does intervene he should do so with tact and discretion. The manager must be prepared to give advice readily to members who are unacquainted with official routine and be obliging and courteous in his dealings with members of the local body and the public."
Following this in 1944-45 this circular was issued in which I stated:—
"A county manager is not an authority exercising powers independently of the local body. He is by law an officer of the county council and the responsibility of the county council in relation to him is quite clear. The county council are the general supervisory authority in county affairs and the manager comes within their jurisdiction. If, for instance, the county council have reason to believe that the manager has failed to perform the duties of his office satisfactorily or has become unfit to hold his office, they can by a majority of not less than two-thirds, suspend him whilst the question of his fitness is being investigated, and if after investigation it is found that he should not remain in office, they can, by the same majority and with the Minister's consent, remove him. There can be no doubt that the council are the controlling power."
Then I went on to deal with reserved functions. I said:—
"Under the system of management in operation here, the various functions to be discharged fall into three classes. The first class comprises functions which are performed directly by the elected members, second comprises executive functions which are performed through and by the manager and the third supervisory powers performed directly by the elected members. The supervisory powers of the elected body include a general power to supervise the performance by the manager of the executive functions, power to examine and revise the estimates, power to obtain information and plans, and power to direct the manager to do specified things... The elected members have the power of the purse. They exercise this in much the same way as the Dáil exercises similar power. The county manager cannot spend until the local authority have authorised him to do so. He is bound by their decisions on the provisions made by them in the annual estimates, and save with their consent, he cannot exceed the total amount provided by them for any particular purpose. The council alone have the power to make the rate and borrow money. They must, of course, maintain the services they are bound by law to maintain but there is considerable discretion allowed them as to the manner in which they shall discharge these obligations. The annual estimates are drawn up by the manager and presented to the members with an explanatory memorandum. It is part of the functions of the members to examine these estimates in detail and if necessary revise them before adoption. Subject to their carrying out their legal obligations, it rests with them to decide how much shall be provided for each service."
I think I have given to the House enough documentary evidence to show that there is no foundation whatever for the sort of statement we have been listening to from some members of the Seanad in the course of this debate. I hope that having read these statements that Senator Madden who was so anxious to know precisely what are the functions of the local authority will have no difficulty now in informing himself fully on the matter, by reading in full the documents from which I have quoted. I was rather surprised to hear Senator Madden saying here that it was impossible now to get responsible and intelligent men to come forward and participate in local affairs. I presume that Senator Madden is speaking for his own Party in this regard because I have not heard this sort of statement from any other quarter in this House during this debate.