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Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 25 Feb 1947

Vol. 33 No. 10

Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Bill, 1947—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This is the customary annual Bill which, in the first place, provides that the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Acts shall continue in force for another year. This year, in addition, the Bill contains a number of provisions regarding the Naval Service. As Senators are no doubt aware, a Marine Service was established during the recent emergency and, as a result of the experience gained during the emergency, it has been decided to maintain the service permanently as a component of the Defence Forces and to rename it the Naval Service.

The terminology of the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Acts is, naturally, military, and now that a permanent Naval Service is being maintained, it is desirable, for administrative and other reasons, to adapt this military terminology to naval usage. That is mainly what is being done in the present Bill. The two longest sections — Section 3 and Section 5—repeat the provisions of Sections 17 and 18 of the No. 2 Act of 1940, the only change, in so far as the Naval Service is concerned, being the substitution of the word "naval" for "marine" wherever it occurred in Sections 17 and 18. Section 8 of the Bill adapts a number of expressions of a military nature which occur throughout the Defence Forces Acts, and Section 9 provides that references in existing legislation to military Defence Forces shall be construed as including references to the Naval Service.

At reference No. 5 of the table to Section 3, provision is made for a new rank of lieutenant-colonel, and Section 4 provides that existing majors shall, when this Bill becomes law, be lieutenant-colonels. This matter was the only one which gave rise to particular discussion in the Dáil and, for that reason, I think it well to refer to it specially here.

The remaining sections are self-explanatory and call for no particular comment from me.

This is the Bill by virtue of which the Army is retained in the coming year. If it is to be retained as a satisfactory Army, it is essential that its personnel be satisfied and happy and not feel that they are labouring under any injustice. It follows, too, that not only must the present personnel be satisfied and happy but they must be satisfied and happy in regard to the precedent created by the way in which their former comrades have been treated. I want to refer to two net issues on this Bill, as I think that as long as the men who have left the Army recently have a grievance, it will not be possible for the present personnel to be as happy and as satisfied as they should be and as every member of this House would wish them to be.

Early in 1945, the Government decided on demobilisation and issued a White Paper showing what was in their mind and showing their intentions. The White Paper indicated, amongst other things, that the Government proposed to dispense with the services of those who had been in the Army for a sufficiently long period to qualify for full pension rights. That was indicated quite clearly in the White Paper. Following its issue, an order was given — whether by the Department or by the Chief of Staff I am not in a position to say, and I do not think it makes very much difference—to commanding officers to explain the White Paper to the men under their command and in that explanation to advise men to whom this demobilisation referred to get out of the Army as soon as possible. They were instructed to advise them to seek civilian employment as soon as it was possible so to do. Presumably, those commanding officers were so instructed for two reasons — first of all, so that the men concerned might be set up in civilian employment, and, secondly, so that, once the need for their retention had passed, the State could avoid the burden of paying them and keeping them in the Army itself. Without any question, that was a very wise, a very prudent and a very proper instruction to give to commanding officers. It was carried out, and the Government, of course, were fully aware that it was so carried out. Demobilisation was quite deliberately arranged in various stages so as to ensure that, in its impact on ordinary civilian life, there would be the least harm done and it would be dealt with in a gradual way. Again, that was an entirely proper thing to do.

Then suddenly came an entirely new decision. The men with the initiative, with the ability, with the drive and foresight, with the desire not to be a burden on the State any longer than was necessary, had left the Army in pursuance of the instructions and orders given to them and had got civilian employment; but the people who were left there to the very end, who had not taken the advice given to them by the Government through their commanding officers, were the people who came in and, because of the Government decision, got the increased pensions. The Government decided that only the people who were in the Army after the 1st September, 1946, would get pensions at the increased rates. I suggest that that was a gross injustice, after the Government had advised people, in the national interest — and very properly so — to get into civilian employment as soon as possible. Any person who left the Army as a result of those instructions, who resigned before he was bound to do so, should be treated just as well as the people who stayed on until the last moment and did not heed the instructions given.

In consequence of this, there have been very grave injustices indeed in the pensions which have been granted. I suggest it would be only fair play for the Government, even at this late hour, to decide that in regard to the increased rates of pension there should be a retrospective clause, so that those pensions would be payable in respect of anybody who resigned after the date of the White Paper. Those who did what they were told, what they were asked to do, should not be penalised for having carried out the instructions. I do not propose to weary the House with exact details as to the amounts involved, but it may be taken very roughly that at least a 25 per cent. loss is being suffered by those men by reason of their having carried out the instructions and orders given to them.

It would have been better if the increased pensions had been announced at the same time as the White Paper but, perhaps, it would have been impossible to correlate the two. However, since it has been done in that way, I appeal to the Minister and the Government to remedy this injustice, to ensure that those men who went out readily to do what they were asked to do, to seek employment in civilian life, may not be penalised, for that is the way they are being penalised.

I want to refer to another matter which appears to have caused some very considerable confusion and dissatisfaction. There appears to be great difficulty in understanding the way in which the boards for disability pensions under the Military Service Pensions Acts operate. Time and time again, members of both Houses of the Oireachtas have brought to their notice cases in which men have been discharged from the Army as being physically unfit and when they are heard before the board it is found that their disability does not arise from Army service during the emergency. I fully appreciate the medical difficulties; I fully appreciate that for a board to arrive at a decision in respect of illness is entirely different from the problem that is before that board if it is to consider the disability arising from wounds; but I would suggest that the approach is wrong.

We understand that during 1940 a great many people were taken into the Army very quickly and, therefore, perhaps they did not get the severe medical examination which would have been possible if their entrance to the Army were not coincident with the high pressure of Army work in those difficult days of 1940.

There have been cases in which long-term soldiers during the emergency suddenly got ill. These soldiers as a result of that illness were declared physically unfit and were discharged from the Army on that basis. Then when the medical board came to examine them, they were told that it could not be shown that their illness arose out of service during the emergency period. I have before me one letter from the Minister's Department dealing with the case of a man who joined the Army in 1924 and who, during the course of his service, was examined by a medical board on numerous occasions. During his service he got frequent recommendations for sports and other feats calling for physical fitness. During the manoeuvres of 1942 he got pleurisy. Up to that time, he had never been sick in the 18 years of his Army service, but having got pleurisy in 1942 on Army manoeuvres, his health began to fail, and finally in May, 1946, he was discharged as physically unfit.

I am not a doctor but I find it very difficult to understand how it can be alleged that a case such as that — there are other cases which I have heard of myself and of which I have heard other Deputies and Senators speak — did not arise out of Army service. It all appears to turn on the fact that it is essential for the soldier himself to prove that his disability arose out of service during the emergency period. These men joined the Army when they were required, they joined in the hour of the country's need and I suggest it is entirely wrong that they should be put on this very difficult matter of proof. The proper way to approach the situation where a soldier is discharged from the Army because he is physically unfit is to grant him a pension unless the State is able to prove that his disability arises from some reason outside his Army service, in other words the burden of proof should lie on the State. It would be the duty and the job of the State to show that if a man did become unfit he was not entitled to a pension because the disability did not arise out of his service. The onus of proving that would be on the State instead of being, as it is at present, on the soldier concerned.

Certainly, judging from what I have heard in respect to these claims and the manner in which demobilisation is carried out, I think I can say that if a similar emergency were to arise in future, some of these people would hesitate before stepping into the breach, knowing that they were going to be treated again in the way that they have been treated in the past. There is a considerable number of cases in which I suggest injustice has been inflicted and I think the House should suggest to the Minister that these injustices require to be remedied as soon as possible.

I agree with much that has been said by Senator Sweetman but he confined his references to the Army that was called upon to defend the country during the recent emergency. He did not refer to even greater men who preceded this Army, namely the members of the Old I.R.A. A number of these men applied to this board for pensions and I have no hesitation in saying that they did not get the consideration they deserved. I know a number of these men in my own area and I am prepared to certify that they were actively engaged in the struggle with the foreign enemy. They did not get the slightest consideration when they came before the board here in Dublin.

I am afraid the Senator is not quite in order.

I shall try to put myself in order as I merely want some enlightenment on this question. I think that the Army officers who received a certain sum of money some years ago when they first left the Army and who were recalled during the emergency, and got a further substantial sum when leaving the Army for a second time, have been treated very fairly by the Government. It is, I think, the duty of the people generally to see that these men should get first preference in the filling of any vacant positions. I think the people have tried to extend that preference to these men fairly well up to the present. The Government has treated these men fairly and they have received sufficiently large pensions, much larger than the pensions to be given to the young men who are coming into the force to-day.

I am afraid Senator Sweetman is suffering under a misconception of the exact position in respect to the matter which he discussed a few moments ago. First of all, if we take the question of pensions, the pension code could not in any circumstances apply to the soldiers the Senator had in mind because they were only emergency soldiers. These are the people who were advised to take an early release from the Army. Even there, of course, the earliest release was dependent on the date upon which demobilisation was begun. In no circumstances that I know of, could these people be affected in the manner suggested by Senator Sweetman because they were short service soldiers.

I am speaking of long service soldiers.

The Senator mentioned that the particular soldiers in whom he was interested were advised to get out of the Army.

But a soldier under a contract cannot leave the Army until his time has expired.

I was referring to long service soldiers whose term of service expired during the emergency and who were kept on because of the emergency.

That may be the position the Senator had in mind, but even in the case of the long-service soldier, there comes a time when his period of service is completed and he automatically leaves the Army. That man is entitled to a pension but the pension is governed by the pay which he is receiving. He cannot receive an increased pension on that pay. The position in respect to the soldiers in whom the Senator was interested was that when demobilisation was completed, a number of soldiers found that their time had expired. They left the Army in the normal way receiving the pension to which they were entitled. When demobilisation was completed, we had to set out to reorganise and almost to establish another Army.

In order to do that one of the first things that we had to do was to provide more attractive conditions, and among these was an increase in pay. The pension automatically increased in proportion to the pay. That applied to every individual in the Army on the date on which the pay was increased. It did not apply to the men who left before that date.

As a result of a request from the Government?

No. I must get the Senator down to earth on this. He is not on the earth at the moment.

The truth is that I am on a very cold earth.

I am sorry to say that I am like the Senator in that respect. The fact of the matter is that the soldier I am talking about could only leave the Army when his time had expired. No appeal that we could have made to that man could have got him out a day sooner. The appeal would have to be the other way — that the men would have to appeal to the authorities to be released rather than that the authorities would have to appeal to the men to go out. As I was saying, one of the attractions which we thought might induce a number of temporary soldiers to remain, men of a very excellent type, was an increase in pay. With the increase in pay the pension automatically increased, so that if there were a number of individuals who were due for release from the Service one or two days after the decision was taken, then the new pension would apply to them but not to the men who, if you like again, went out one or two days before that date.

I think the Senator suggested that we should take the date as being the date on which the White Paper was issued. We could take that date, but it would also be a border-line date. But if you had a number of people who were entitled to be in on this side, and, on the very fringe of the line, a number who were out, then there would be an attempt to bring the date to the only date which would satisfy everybody — the date on which pensions were first introduced. That was away back in 1937, and, of course, if that were adopted it would open the door so that it would be very difficult to close because it would affect not only military pensions but practically all the pensions that are at present being paid—pensions to national school teachers, to the police and to the Army. For that reason, it would be quite impossible to accept the suggestion made by the Senator.

As regards people who suffered disabilities and hardships and to the Army Pensions Board's decision in respect of them and the Senator's statement on them, I want to say that the board in my opinion is a reasonably fair board. It is composed of individuals who are as human and just as we are. They give every possible consideration to the claims that come before them. I know for a fact that they encourage applicants to produce every particle of evidence which is likely to be of any benefit to them. When all that evidence is produced it is carefully examined by the members of the board, who then come to their decision. The board has a duty to perform so far as the taxpayer is concerned. It has to see that pensions are not paid to people who are not entitled to them. The members of the board, in the course of their inquiries which sometimes carry them very far afield, have to unearth the history of individuals. Their decisions are based on the investigations they carry out, but, as I have said, their leanings are always towards the applicant. Their decisions are based on the evidence which they get together in respect of each particular case. I am satisfied, from my knowledge of the members of the board, that in no circumstances that I can conceive, would they knowingly do an injustice to an applicant. Therefore, all that I can say is that the men who make these claims have not been able to develop them to the point at which they could satisfy the board that they were entitled to pensions.

Senator McCabe referred to a matter that comes under a different Act, the Military Service Pensions Act. In that case, too, it would be unfair to say that the individuals are not given every opportunity of proving their case. They have been given every possible opportunity. In the early days, a lot of the delay that took place was due to the number of appeals which were allowed by the Military Service Pensions Board before an applicant was eventually told that he was not a person to whom the Act applied. I am glad to say that that particular phase of things has now almost come to an end. I think I have covered most of the points that were raised in the course of the short discussion which has taken place on this stage of the Bill.

Am I not correct in thinking that the long-term soldier who was continued on because of the emergency did not have to get out of the Army until the 1st of November last?

It is true that a number of long-term soldiers were held during the emergency, but they were released at the earliest possible moment. That, however, does not alter the position of the case, because the men whom the Senator has in mind, if they were not held on, would have gone out several years before, with the pension then due to them. The fact that they were held on for an additional period meant that they got a higher pension because of the extended service which they gave.

That is not quite the question that I asked. The question I asked was, did the Government not indicate that these men should go out before the final date?

I do not quite grasp what the Senator means.

May I make myself quite clear? The situation, as I understand it, was that there were long-term soldiers who contracted for a period of service which would expire during the emergency but, as a result of the emergency, the contract period was continued for the duration of the emergency. So far as the Army was concerned the emergency was declared to terminate on November 1st last, and on this date everyone whose contract of service expired at any time during the emergency must get out. That is as I understand the situation. What I want to know is, whether the Department was entitled to say that these men should get out before that date. If I have not made myself clear to the Minister perhaps we could leave it over. I think I can raise the matter again on Section 2. It is an operative section.

The "must" that the Senator referred to was governed by the manner in which the men were demobilised. We were not able to take the bottom out of the Army and let the men drop out. We decided on releasing a number of men per month. It was worked out in such a way that it would take, I think, 12 months to release all the men. Then we had to take another decision to ensure that individuals who were going out to assured employment were amongst those who were released early. Individuals who had large family commitments were allowed to continue on to the last possible date. There were several minor matters of this kind, I cannot remember them all, which governed the manner in which men were released. There was no question of anyone being compelled to leave.

Any man who made an application to remain on to the last possible date was left there.

Will the Minister not also agree with me that the Government requested anyone who could get civilian employment to get out as quickly as possible?

We realised it was desirable to get people into employment as quickly as possible.

I know, but did you not go further and ask them to try to get civilian employment as quickly as possible?

We were anxious to get them settled in civilian life as soon as possible, and if there was a chance they were helped in every possible way.

Question put and agreed to.

When is it proposed to take the next Stage?

If the House has no objection I would like to have the remaining stages now.

I think March 31st is the day by which the Minister wants the Bill.

I suggest we give all the stages in the next sitting of the House.

Agreed.

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